Of ideas and policies by linking scholarship to issues of concern to washington. Congress established the center in 1968 as the official National Memorial to president wilson. Unlike the physical monuments in the nations capital, it is a living memorial whose work and scholarship commemorates, quote, the ideals and concerns of Woodrow Wilson. As both a distinguished scholar and national reader, president wilson felt strongly that the scholar and policy maker were both engaged in a common enterprise. The center takes seriously the views to bridge the gap between the world of ideas and the world of policy, enriching the work of both and enabling each to learn from the other. This series, wilson then and now, is our effort to make wilson and his period more central to that creative contact between ideas and practice in national and global affairs. In a grateful and inclusive way, we seek to highlight work on wilson and his time that offers explicit or implicit lessons for contemporary or enduring problems of public and international life. For this episode we wanted to look beyond Academic Work in the narrow sense of articles and monographs and look at the work of public scholars wrestling with the challenges of commemorating our past. To commemorate means to remember together. How should we collectively remember a past that has left so many different legacies for different people. More to the point today, how should we remember a figure like Woodrow Wilson whose legacy is both internally inconsistent and publicly contested. Can we find a way to explore and discuss the good, the bad and the ugly in our past when we dont always agree even on the meaning of those terms, and must we try . These are questions that hit home. This very series is part of a Wilson Center effort to remember wilson in a way that is neither selfserving, nor ca that is rightically damning, but relevant and useful to the greatest possible number of americans who today are trying to build a better, richer, fairer commonwealth than the one they inherented. Later youll hear from me about complementary efforts including one to imagine the centers permanent exhibit on wilsons life and legacies and another to celebrate the life and legacies of the wilson [inaudible] first, however, i want to welcome two guests who have been struggling with some of the same questions and challenges we have here and have generously offered to share their stories. Robin wilson is president and ceo of the Woodrow Wilson president ial library and museum in wisconsin, virginia excuse me, stanton, virginia. Im mortified mys pronounced that. Robin mispronounced that. Robin first volunteered as a College Student at next door Baldwin University in 1991 just as the university was preparing to open. She eventually became coo and director of finance before assuming leadership at the organization. In the meantime, robin earned a masters from James Madison university, served as dean of students and worked at both mary baldwin and James Madison. While overseeing the Wilson Library and museum, robin also serves on the Virginia Association of museums governing council where she represents the mountain and valley districts as well as on the Advisory Board of visitors for mary Baldwin University. She lives in stanton with her family. Welcome, robin. Thank you. Elizabeth thank you very much. Elizabeth a. Archer is the executive director of the president Woodrow Wilson house on p street in washington, d. C. On f street, a site that provides a window into wilsons retirement in an actual and perfectly preserved setting as well as an intimate look at wilsons overall life and legacy. Prior to joining the National Trust and wilson house, elizabeth worked at discovery incorporated, a leading global media company, and served in many roles with the womens club including serving as Club President where she led the clubs transition to a 501 c 3 organization. Elizabeth received her bachelor of arts in International Affairs from the American University of paris, france, before earning a master of arts in International Relations from rutgers university. Her interest in International Affairs extends far beyond wilsons legacy in that arena. Shes an adviser to a foundation which supports Sustainable Community development. Elizabeth lives in washington with her husband. Welcome, elizabeth. And welcome, too, to our viewers from across the United States and many other places. Were grateful to have you with us and eager to include you. After our two guests speak, ill respond with some questions and observations of my own and then begin gleaning comments and questions from the chat which i urge you to fill. I ask that you maintain a tone of inquiry and an attitude of curiosity, taking care not to foreclose others questions or contributions. Well, lets get started. Robin, could i ask you to talk a little bit about your work at thed Woodrow Wilson is president ial museum and library in stanton, virginia. Sure. Good afternoon and hello from stanton, virginia. Its a pleasure if to be with you as we discuss this very important topic of Woodrow Wilsons legacy. Its a topic that we discuss regularly amongst our board and staff and alongside our visitors as we learn together. Our goal at the Woodrow Wilson president ial library is to tell the story of Woodrow Wilson from birth to in an honest and objective fashion. We are comfortable sharing both the positives and negatives, or as we often say here, we talk abouted Woodrow Wilson about Woodrow Wilson and all. The library, which is located at his birthplace as mentioned, has developed over the years from its original incorporation as what was then known as the Woodrow Wilson birthplace foundation. Our mission is to promote an understanding of the complexity of the life and times of Woodrow Wilson, his influence on the world, his relevancy today and for the future. This mission is a different one than the original mission of the organization when it first opened in 1938. That mission stated that the goal of the organization was to preserve and maintain the birthplace that the set property might be forever set apart as a National Shrine dedicated to the ideals and purposes for which Woodrow Wilson lived and died, that man of every nation and of all time might have a fairer opportunity to enjoy the fruits of democracy and thus be better able to achieve mental, moral, Spiritual Development [inaudible] define creator. As noted, the library was incorporated in 1938 as the Woodrow Wilson birthplace. It was initially dedicated in 1941 by president Franklin Roosevelt as, quote, a new shrine of freedom. Original trustees of the organization came from National Prominence and included such individuals as United States senators, members of local cabinets and University Professors among others. The first president of the organization was mrs. Frances [inaudible] a stanton native and wife of thenUnited States secretary of state. Although not a board member, the biggest cheerleader was none other than wilsons widow. The Woodrow Wilson president ial library has evolved over the years from its original purpose, and after years of acquiring some of the a adjacent Historic Properties here beside the birthplace, the foundation opened the Woodrow Wilson museum highlighting wilsons life and Public Service in 1990 and opened the library and Research Center in 2008. It was renamed in 2004, and it is an Educational Institution dedicated to the study of both wilsons life and the times in which he lived from precivil war, 1856, to postworld war i, 1924. Many of the issues that we grapple with today as a country things such as the role of federal government, immigration, womens issues, race relations, taxes, americas role in the world these were all prominent concerns during wilsons time, and Woodrow Wilson president ial library provides the background to understand these subjects. During our 83year history, this institution has educated individuals about these issues surrounding the 28th president and the critical era in which he lived. To explain just a little more about who we are, our campus includes [inaudible] where wilson was born in 1856, and we provide divided tours that highlight 19th century life in stanton, virginia. We also talk about the enslaved workers who lived and worked in that home when wilson was born there. Our Museum Gallery including an interactive world war i trench exhibit and president wilsons 1919 [inaudible] we talk about his birth and childhood in the south, his educational pursuits, his political life as governor of new jersey and president of the United States. But we also have a temporary gallery where we try to explore life as it resonates with contemporary society looking at relevance for today. For example, our recent exhibit, contesting the president , compared protest topics from 1920 to today, topics such as suffrage and civil rights issues, and it shows how we really havent gotten as far as we think we have as a society. Our team here is committed to creating learning opportunities that emphasize historys significance in todays world. Our traditional k12 educational ramming provides on programming provides onsite learning and outreach to schools. We work closely with the Virginia Department of education to insure that programs meet the needs of teachers and students of all age. Additionally, we have lectures, panel discussions, guest speakers, a wide variety of topics that we cover as a regular part of our ongoing operation. I think its important to state we will well understood by many americans, and the reality is that president wilson is a polarizing historical figure, but were committed to discussing his full if story. So while we celebrate the Domestic Legislation that wilson signed into law, the new directions he charted in Foreign Policy during the First World War that has shaped the politics and diplomacy of the United States throughout the 20th century and beyond, we also detail his beliefs on race and segregation and its Lasting Impact on the progress of social justice. So we look forward to the 250th anniversary of founding of our country, we believe we must examine the challenges that keep us from that idea of human equality, and its our vision to [inaudible] during wilsons time and how he both influenced and was influenced. Thank you. Thank you very much, robin, i appreciate that. Elizabeth, will you please tell us about your work at the f street house, as i was socialized to call it. I like that. We actually call it, the name is the Woodrow Wilson house. It had changed names about 12 years ago to the president Woodrow Wilson house, and the wilson house as we call it among ourselves, the wilson house, was also originally described as a shrine to Woodrow Wilson. The house itself was built by a famous architect, washington, d. C. Architect in 19 a 15, and the 1915, and the wilsons moved into that house in 1921 on inauguration day. Many people do call it the house on f street. But when edith Wilson Wilson went on to live there for three years, he died in 1924 in this house, edith wilson went on to live in this house for another 37 years. So, in fact, having lived in the house for close to, you know, 40 years, she really did she put a stamp on what the house would be, and she bequeathed it to the National Trust for Historic Preservation upon her death in 1961. And it was opened to the public in 1963 and became really an official, officially a Historic House and i museum in 196 a 5. Her letters of bequeathment refer to it as being a shrine to Woodrow Wilson, and so we struggle with that because were not really a shrine any longer. We talk about it as being a place where we can talk freely about his legacy and the legacy that hes left. And legacy, i think, is a much richer word. You can it describes both things that are positive and negative, the consequences and the results of some of the legislation in the parts of his administration that today were realizing what that legacy is actually leaving, such consequences of that legacy. The house itself has, is authentic in that we have over 8,400 pieces of artifacts in the collection. As you can see behind me, the library is really untouch toed from the day that edith had turned it over to the National Trust. Very interestingly for me, i just came across a photograph of the house that was put into architectural digest in 1921 when the wilsons moved in and, in fact, architectural digest captured it, and it looks very much like it did then. The wilson house is set up similarly to the library, president ial library and museum in that we do tours, we co we have visitors come to do different types of tours. Those tours have changed since 1965, and in todays world what we focus on is wilsons legacy as president and his president ial years but other things as well. We talk about the full story of the people who lived in this house, who worked in this house. We look at the architecture of the house and what it meant to be, this style of architecture from the time. We do a tour called upstairs downstairs where we describe the life of edith wilson in one day and then the people who worked in the house around her to support the lifestyle in this house. And the subtle nuances that you find in a Historic House like in that really describe what the upstairs downstairs means. We have advised by an Advisory Council which we have grown in the last two and a half years since i have started at the wilson house, and thats been very, very rewarding because my Advisory Council, our members are from all over the world, actually. And some of them are are very big still fans of wilson and the wilsonian era, and others are very critical, and we need that balance to help us steer our direction and our purpose. Our mission as part of the National Trust for Historic Preservation is to preserve and store the house, the collections, the landscape and its full dynamic history and use it to provide forwardthinking and inclusive discussions, programs and Community Activities that are relevant to today thes social context. Todays social context. We really look to have debates, dialogue, discourse about what in many ways, what happened a hundred years ago and how those same things resonate today whether it talks about issues that wilson himself faced, womens issues, racial issues and, of course, international conflict. So these are topics that we try to bring to life during our, for our tours and for our guests. We were talking a little bit earlier, we have a staff and a number of guides, and we also have scholars who come and join us three times a year weve got a scholars program, and we find that the scholars are the next generation, and they bring so much life and energy and new ideas to a way that we can interpret this house and tell these stories. We try to, we love to be engaged in conversations like this where we can hear what people have to say and what they think about how we should be remembering a president with the consequential legacy of Woodrow Wilson, so thank you for including me. Im happy to be here today. Thank you very much, elizabeth, and thanks again, robin. Im going to talk a little bit about the more nascent although very much inprocess efforts of the Wilson Center to redo its permanent, exhibition on wilsons life and legacy. And then when im done, perhaps we can turn to questions about maybe some more specific questions about some of the efforts each of you make to highlight the complexities and how you engage with your visitors both virtual and in person. But first i want to give a little update on our own efforts here at the Wilson Center. As i said earlier, the Wilson Center was chartered by congress in 1968 as the official memorial to president Woodrow Wilson, and as such, we have a responsibility to present public exhibitions to help educate contemporary audiences about wilsons career, policies and his legacy. In line with the Wilson Centers chartered role as an International Affairs think tank, our current exhibition focuses on wilsons vision for a more peaceful global community. But it does not represent his views, even on those topics, his presidency and its legacy in their full complexity, and is we were aware of that before events of the past several years, and we are even more painfully aware of that today. As the nations key nonpartisan policy forum, the Wilson Center tackles difficult issues every day through independent research and open dialogue. The point of our, i guess, exhibit revamp is to draw on this experience to reimagine the exhibition in a way that acknowledges Woodrow Wilsons Visionary Leadership on a national and global scale in some areas yet with also addresses his more troubling legacies especially as regards race, but in other areas as well. First, let me just review the exhibition goals as we identified them over the last several months. In reimagining the exhibition, the Wilson Center seeks, first, to reexamine wilsons presidency and legacy based on current scholarship. Been a long time since the current exhibition was put in place. Second, to reflect multiple point9 of view including criticism of president wilson. Third, to perform a forum for open dialogue about president wilson and his legacy. We also want to create a more welcoming and inclusive and visitorfriendly experience, establish a flexible, multipurpose space for film and Public Programs is and events, ways that we can support work at the Wilson Center and by other partners in exploring relevant topics in American History and relating them to our current concerns. We want to increase the visibility of the Wilson Center. We want to expand visitation and program attendance. Finally, we want to create connections between the exhibition and the rest of the Wilson Centers work and encourage visitors to explore connections between president wilsons era and contemporary public life. I want to make just a few comments on three of four of these goals with which i personally have been most engaged. The first or the first two are the related goals of reflecting multiple points of view and providing a forum for open dialogue about wilson and his legacy. For all his many faults, wilson was perhaps the most eloquent of all our president s in articulating an ideal of democracy with deliberation at its core, an ideal he called common counsel. Everyone learns most and the best decisions are made through processes including widest scope of experience, interests and opinions and bringing them all into genuine conversation with one another. Obviously, wilson did not always practice his ideal perfectly and, indeed, in several important pieces, he seemed to forget or ignore it entirely. But my personal opinion is he practiced it than most people in authority and maybe most human beings practice their own cherished ideals. Indeed, in his day before a slew of mid20th century books mostly seeking to explain the senate, wilson was frequently praised by his princeton and washington acquaintances. And not just his friends, for his solicitation of and careful attention to criticism. One duty that i think the Wilson Center has, too much of what is published in the media and increasingly in scholarly circles is factually incorrect. Wilson, for instance, never promoted the lost cause of the democracy. He celebrated the defeat of the south and explicitly the end of slavery. He never praised the kkk. He denounced it in the harshest terms. He never endorsed birth of a nation and asked major theaters not to show it, and examples can be multiplied. This is not to excuse wilson for think of the terrible things that he did do and the consequential and damaging legacy not just for race relations, but for actual living black americans both in his day and in our own. Its just to say that i think in todays day and age it is critical that an organization like the Wilson Center insist on the importance of fact, for if we no longer believe in facts on the importance of evidence of that can be and has been examined subjectively. Theres plenty to criticize wilson for without assuming things based on his southern birth or making things up. That only invites a damaging backlash. Second point, i think making wilson into a caricature or hideous alien monster that in no way resembles his enlightened, white, progressive descendants today is dangerous to the cause of racial justice. The fact is wilson, i dont think, was that different from many folks today. He did not sit around thinking about how to prevent black americans from obtaining justice and achieving equality. He basically did not care at all about black americans. When he did think about them, he preferred to hi that his tendency to say the right things about democracy or his overall support of progressive and even radical policies was enough, enough to absolve him or making uncomfortable personal sacrifices or political sacrifices. Sacrifices of pride, sacrifices of moral comfort and of moral authority. These are not dangerous [inaudible] but thats not really my most important point. Hi main point is that i think it is essential that an institution chartered by congress to promote wilsons best ideals do just that, do a hutch better job of it than he much better job of it than he ever did himself. I cant think of a time when it was more important to foster courageous and instructive experiences of hope and ideas across steep differences than it is today when our formal systems of political systems of Decision Making seem less equipped to foster that sort of collective learning and public work. The second thing i want to address briefly is connections between the exhibition and the larger work of the Wilson Center and encouraging visitors to seek connections between wilsons era and contemporary public life. The Wilson Center is involved in an incredible range of constructive work to improve human life and foster thriving, free communities across the globe. And in a vast majority of the cases, from what i can tell, it does that work in a way that translates wilsons ideal of common counsel into practice better than he did. Its various teams and working groups did not dream up solutions to other peoples problems and simply dispense or impose them. They work in collaboration with governments, nonprofits, voluntary organizations, Educational Institutions and activists all over the globe to cocreate solutions and to leverage the talent ares, the wisdom and work of people who are actually living the conditions that concern them. I think visitors should know about this work and take hope from it. After all, its done by a public if institution, and its done in their name. That said, wilson often thought he and his counterairports were doing is same counterparts were the same kind of work. Our exhibit will make clear, however, he often was to not. One reason, therefore, to present wilson not as a demon or a monster or a failure or a hypocrite, but as a complex person dealing with enormous challenges and trying at least some of the time to do the right thing is to spur people to ask themselves what is this place doing. What is this organization, a public institution, doing that i should support and learn from, and what might its blind spots be. What about other organizations that act in my name, the name of the u. S. Government, a government of we, the people, but in ways that i dont know much about. What constructive even if uncomfortable questions could i ask of the people who run those places. And that brings me to my final point, which is the connection to contemporary public life. For all of my concerns about some of the contemporary literature on wilson and his troubling legacy, it is undeniable that that legacy is troubling. And if our center and our exhibition in any way appears to be sweeping any of those legacies under the rug, we are doing a disservice to ourselves and to the American People and everyone who visits the exhibition. We need to make it clear that at least we as an organization can confront these types of complexities and welcome the opinions and the reaction and the suggestions and the creative, constructive ideas and solutions of people outside of our think tank, outside of our organization, outside of our familiar sphere of experts. And i really hope, i believe that the team we have working on the revamp of the wilson exhibition is doing its best to do that, and i look forward to the results, and i look forward to peoples reactions to it when it is finally unveiled. Before we take questions, i just want to make one more mention of another area in which the Wilson Center is trying to take this new approach toward its commemoration of Woodrow Wilson. Our new president and ceo, ambassador mark green, has asked that the Wilson Center launch a new award, and the details of this are are still in formulation, but an award honoring a very, very prominent critic of wilson along very much the same lines that he is criticized today. His name is William Monroe trotter, the prominent africanamerican civil rights activist, bostonbased, editor of the boston guardian, also known not just for his contra temps with wilson in 1914, but for a lifetime of unbelievably constructive work to advance the civil rights of africanamericans as well as to advance the rights and Living Conditions and Political Freedoms of people of color all across the world. So i ask that everyone keep their attention open to announcements about what for thousand ill call the William Monroe trotter award, and i am as eager as i hope many of you are to see how that shapes up. So thank you very much. I know theres been some, already some, how shall i say, animated discussion in the chat, and im eager to get to some of those questions. First, i could ask a question that is a little bit, a little bit more directed toward the work of our two guests. I wonder if i could put each of you on the spot to give a concrete example of an experience with a particular set of visitors or a really tough problem that you recall working through with your staff on how to communicate and talk about wilsons complex legacy in just a real concrete term, a little vignette of the kind of work that youre trying to do. Can we start with you, robin . Absolutely. You know, the first thing that pops to my mind when you mention that is the, looking at some of the exhibit labels that are in our museum. One of the things that we did after the murder of george floyd, we like so many other museums put out a statement of support for our black community and did some soul searching as well. We also spend a lot of our time doing trimming so that we are more aware of looking at diverse viewpoints and seeing where those blind spots might be. And one of the areas was we looked at exhibit labels, and we realized how we were framing something in a way that really wasnt as i dont want to say it wasnt accurate, but it wasnt a full, more objective view. And so what we purposefully did is we changed that exhibit label, but we made it so you can see where we had changed that, and we put a description of why we felt that was important to change that, that we were becoming more inclusive in our thoughts and sharing those viewpoints. You know, i think one of the things that we do as Museum Professionals is that we have to continue to be objective. And so often theres so much emotion about these very topics, and you have to balance that emotional piece of that with the objective piece of what our job is, and thats just one example that came up. Thank you. We, at thed Woodrow Wilson house, we put through i should start by saying we have funding through the africanamerican Cultural Heritage action fund that is part of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. And so with that, many of the stories that we are looking to tell are, have a much fuller story and to bring africanamerican stories to life at thed Woodrow Wilson house. The Woodrow Wilson house. One thing we talk about the scotts, the husband and wife this supported the wilsons, living there for over 15 years, we had a Speaker Series last spring. It started on suffrage to celebrate the centennial of the 19th amendment, and that Speaker Series went, it was on zoom, it was extraordinarily successful for the Woodrow Wilson house in that we switched from being inperson to now online. And online we had sometimes over a hundred people tuning in which was really great because we never would have been able to have a hundred people at the wilson house for those kinds of talks. And then, of course, with the murder last summer of george floyd, we changed the topic to wilson and race, and were very direct and deliberate about having professor eric yellen spoke, we had historians bring to life, to tell the story and explain what do we heene by racism. Mean by racism. What does this heene . One of the things that we found is a lot of people didnt they were surprised and say i didnt learn that, why didnt i know that . And it was in some ways the same story that we would hear from people who would attend the Speaker Series on suffrage say, gosh, i didnt know that. Why i had a fairly decent education, why didnt i know that about suffrage or about wilson and race or about his administration. So weve taken those, and i agree with the exhibitions, i love the idea of having the plaque explain what we used to say and what we say today. The wilson house will be a museum, well be celebrating 60 years in the coming year, and were looking to put through an exhibition on how weve changed as an exhibition space and as a museum over 60 years and tell that story which i think is actually fascinating to say what we how did we portray ourselves in 1963, 1965 and how do we do that today. But a very, very concrete story that just happened recently was with young girl scouts who came. Its a new program that were trying to explore at the wilson house, is to have young girl scouts come. And they asked and i was there. I helped facilitate this conversation. And they said to me, why, what how can this person be a racist . What do you mean he was a racist . And what do you mean by, like, what was good about him . If hes so bad because he was a racist. And i said to these young ladies, you know, did you take the metro here today . And they said, yes. I said, did you watch tv and hear things that happened in the world that make you think, wow, america should be waving our flag, and we should be out there helping those people and doing things whether you did you hear about haiti a few weeks ago . Did you hear china . Did you think america should be oh, yes, america should be waving flags. When you took the metro, did you see Homeless People on the street . Yes, we did. Did you say anything to them . Did you help them . Did you give them think hundred . No. And that any money . And that really struck them. Yes, its almost american to our core that we feel we should be helping and feeling like we should be with having this influence on world, on vision of world peace. And yet sometimes well walk right over or the people who are right outside our front door. Right outside the metro in washington d. C. And thats an extraordinarily concrete vision that those girl scouts came away with thinking they didnt just learn about wilson and a vision of world peace, they need to learn about whats happening their in their own backyard. Very arresting story. Yes, thank you very much. Building or related a little bit to what you just mentioned, elizabeth, that people coming in and saying why didnt i know this, i dont exactly know what people are talking about when they say he, wilson, did this or didnt do this, we got a question asking us to summarize wilsons attitudes and actions on race rather than just refer to them or talk around them. Im not sure we had well, first of all, i will refer people to our previous installment of the series, wilson then and now, which was on the politics of race. I dont know that really either of us are equipped to do that in the time that we have, but maybe i could ask each of you to explain the major events in wilsons career or the major statements that he made or publication that you have found people most concerned that you address head on and then talk about how you addressed, how you addressed those. That would be a way at least to give people an idea of at least some of the actions, some of the statements that, unfortunately, i dont think we can summarize wilsons, the entire subject of wilson and race today. But that might be a way to get at it in a concrete way. So, robin, again, i turn to you, whats the main thing about wilson and race that you, that you just knew you had to confront because people were asking you to confront it. Sure. The first thing that really comes to mind is about the viewing of [inaudible] in the white house. And i know there had been a quote that has been attributed to wilson about that very building that theres no evidence that he utteredded the words. It was like writing history with lightning. But his association with that filming, the viewing of that film concern which, incidentally, was directed by a classmate in school, that is a huge question that we get asked about on a regular basis. One of the questions because we are in washington, d. C. , there is a high school, the Woodrow Wilson high school. Its a public school. Its in the Northwest Quadrant of washington, d. C. , not too far from the wilson house on f street. They have been struggling with the name change and should they be changing the name of the Woodrow Wilson high school. I think theres a chance it might be the talk now is it would be changed to August Wilson high school which, frankly, the commentary is thats a bit of a copout to be changing it to August Wilson, but nonetheless, that is the discussion. And one of the questions we get is i wouldnt say, the questions we get is why, why are they changing the name of thed Woodrow Wilson high school, and what are you going to do at the wilson house. And when this debate takes place in washington among this neighborhood, it talks about how that neighborhood had been an Africanamerican Community and that because of the segregation of the federal government, that community itself right where the Woodrow Wilson high school is located was affected because now thats not an Africanamerican Community. So thats one of the questions that we get, is give us a concrete idea of, you know, what exactly are you talking about when you say segregation and what happened, what were the consequences. And we talk about the Wilson School in northwest. Thank you very much. I will, i have a comment in the chat asking to talk about the segregation of the federal government under wilson. This is probably the example of wilsons racism that comes up most for me in my circles at least and certainly is one of the major topics for us here at the Wilson Center for obvious reasons. Were here in washington, d. C. , and were specifically commemorating his presidency. The, when wilson took office, he had two cabinet if members in particular, mcdo and wilson mca doo who had in mind the more systemic segregation of the bureaucracy generally. Mcadoo was secretary of the treasury, and wilson was postmaster general. And they knew about wilsons very public commitments to several delegations of black civil rights leaders when he received the nomination for the presidency from the Democratic Party as well as to some prominent white supporters of black civil rights such as oswald garrison ford to, quote, do justice to the negro and to, not to, you know, reduce the number of federal appointments, for instance, that had sort of traditionally been part of the patronage machine under the republicans who had been in control for most of the past couple of generations of the white house. And so burleson and mcadoo sort of fed wilson this story that both black and white were uncomfortable working together, and they talked to all the prominent pastors in d. C. , and they all supported this. And, obviously, mind reading that for wilson to have so easily swallowed this line of reasoning is a sign of his racism. The idea that africanamericans would, would turn to segregation as a way to overcome, you know, even the they had their discomforts of their own is, it just shows an utter lack of empathy, intellectual empathy at least for people in the position of these black federal workers. And it became a huge public issue for wilson. For one thing, he had a new democratic congress, and he depended upon the votes of a lot of southern democrats who were much more conservative than he was and were to push through a lot of his Domestic Legislation to support working people, to make credit more available to farmers and Small Business people through what eventually became the federal reserve, to better regulate the trusts, to revise the tariff schedules so that they worked not just to enrich large corporations, but, you know, at the expense of consumers. And so he found it very, very difficult, i think, to backtrack, a, because he really was not all that concerned and found it because of his racism found it easy to believe that this would be best for both sides. Also because politically he really worried about alienating many of these southern democrats. He also at the same time was getting all sorts of very public, especially in the south and southern papers, very public criticism for appointing black americans to federal positions especially in a couple instances where he put names forward for africanAmerican People to actually supervise white employees. So that is the story as i understand it. Often the story is told, i think, as well, in two ways. Either it wasnt wilsons fault, it was just his cabinet members and he was too busy doing others, which is not true. Mine, theyre his i mean, theyre his cabinet members. He bears responsibility. Or the story is wilson came into office bound and determined to enforce segregation and thereby revitalize or invigorate segregation in society as a whole. Thats also just not true as far as i believe the record. And so i think its and another version of that story is that the federal government was, had long been being desegregated by republicans, and that truth doesnt quite hold up to scrutiny. Taft was also segregating federal im sorry, people in the Taft Administration were also segregating federal offices. That same policy continued under wilsons successors after he left, his republican successors after he left office, and there that long been a very concerted sort of southern strategy among the republican, the gop to support local and statewide efforts to suppress the africanamerican vote in the south and support segregationist policies as a way to try to make inroads into the solid south democratic vote to try to win southerners over to the republican party. So i think its, this is an example and there are many, others of just the sheer complexity of one single issue in this history of wilsons racial thinking and policies. And the summary if i gave was not meant to absolve wilson of any guilt, its just an effort to tell from what i have read and studied over many years, to tell the host accurate story about it as most accurate story about it as i and a story that hopefully will prompt us to think about the lessons we can learn that really apply to our current day and age rather than open us up to very simple conclusions like, oh, thats just revisionist history, and youre just trying to take a hatchet to Woodrow Wilson. Or, yeah, everyone thoughs that wilson was the most hideous racist to ever occupy the white house. Other than the 12 slave owners of course, who occupied that position. So i hope that was useful to people who just got more than one comment asking for someone to kind of review that particular episode in wilsons career. Okay. I am going to turn im going to try to kind of [laughter] morph several of the comments and questions into larger comments and questions. A lot of commentary on was wilson a hypocrite, and i guess from the per sective of someone trying to perspective of someone trying to put together a Museum Exhibition on his life and legacy, what is the value in asking that question or is there a different question that we can ask. So, elizabeth, do you want to go first this time . Sure. One of the when i came to the wilson house, my very first idea on an exhibition was on flawed leaders and to look at Woodrow Wilson and his flaws, and as robin was saying, warts and all, but compare him to and looked at other world leaders. Not even world leaders, it could just be american leaders that have, are flawed leaders and what are those flaws. And its remarkable if you take, if you look at them, a number of them their character flaw is on race. Race or on views of otherness, people who are different whether its a woman or and i thought that would be a great exhibition, it would be a great way to address wilsons flaws. And one of the other ideas that that we have percolated for an exhibition is on fake news propaganda and First Amendment rights and how that has changed over the last hundred years. And that once again goes into that dichotomy, like, how do we justify this very fine line of when its propaganda versus First Amendment right. So those are the things that were thinking of at the wilson house. Thank you. Robin, do you want to take on the hypocrite and or other questions . [laughter] yes. You know, ill start by saying in i think it was 2015, the talk about what to do we do with wilson, that was when the talk first started. And i had a fellow no longer associated with another president ial library call me if say good luck with this, you know, i dont envy you. And i just said, you know, be careful, your times coming, and im not going to tell you which one it was, but that time has come. And i think it is something that we can look at all of our president s and see, you know, if we i think so often we want to glorify if all of our leaders and see only them at their best ideals. But to me, when we look and study a human being whether theyre president of the United States or mayor of a small city, it doesnt matter. Were looking at a persons positives and also flaws and what makes them and what can we learn from them is the most important thing for me. I think it so often is easy for us to sit in our glass houses and throw those rocks. And thats where i want to see us go as our organization, were actually in the middle of a planning stage to completely redo our museum anyway. Its past time, and we want to expand that. And that is to look at things that we want to look at, is what can we take from not just Woodrow Wilson, but from any historical figure and reflect on that for that relevancy. How does that change me and what can i learn from this. I will say it was before my time here, but this was 2006, John Milton Cooper and dr. Tom knox put together the on behalf of the president ial library exploring wilson, lincoln and jefferson and race. And you can actually purchase the book from the university of virginia on the essays that were given. And it was such a so fascinating to read those and to be able to see even in 2006 the conversation that we were having. Interestingly enough, there wasnt as much interest in that as there would be today. So its something that we definitely strive to really it forth those very, those conversations. Im glad you mentioned that book, robin. All of the essays in there are brilliant, and i can say that because i didnt contribute to it. One that i will particularly mention to people on this episode here is by the late Manning Maribel who wrote probably the best overview of wilson and race that ive ever seen in a short, maybe a 20page article. A very prominent africanamerican scholar, biographer of w. E. B. Dubois, one of the, one of the best critical examinations of wilsons record on race that ive read. I think still probably the best certainly in that, in that small space. Weve got a couple comments just from the chat responding to this idea of otherness as sort of a human [laughter] sort of a universal human if itfall pitfall and how it is interesting that wilson not only appointed the First Jewish Supreme Court justice and took a lot of heat for it that would be Louis Brandeis also appointed the first jewish faculty and catholic faculty to princeton at a time when that place was almost as hostile to those two types of people as to africanamericans. But then again, was not willing to go so far as to get behind and support the application of black students to princeton. His excuse was that, you know, this is a place where its kind of a finishing school for southern white gentlemen, and youre probably not going to like it here. Well, he could have said the same thing to a jewish and catholic faculty and chose not to. And why is that . Why does that racial otherness or that particular kind of racial otherness pose such a greater barrier than some others. Another question that ive tried to kind of glean from the chat and kind of build into a bigger meatball of a question, i guess, is was wilsons domestic legacy, you know, valuable enough to commemorate despite all of these other sins . You know, what is it that after your careful study that you and your staff and your advisers internal, external, official, unofficial have found really are remains worth lets say commemorating as at least potentially very valuable and inspiring and at the very least extraordinarily consequential in terms of the, either the American Political Development or International Affairs, and maybe we can start with whoever wants to answer first. I can start. I have we just recently redesigned our web page. Our web page was kind of limping along for a number of years, and it was one of my goals to get it out there. And we talked about what do ph. D. S do when theyre not professors, well, sometimes they help redesign a web site and do research for us. And this particular student really thought in terms of the name change why dont you just become the museum of progressivism. Thats not really going to [laughter] i dont know how popular thats going to be. I like it, i like it a lot, but im not i think we need to keep it as the Woodrow Wilson house. But i bring that up because thats something that we look to, i i mean, we can explain a lot and the evolution of progressives, of what to you look at a progressive today, would that would Woodrow Wilson recognize that as a progressive, you know . If you were to take that compendium of time and see that evolution of what progressive meant, thats one of the things that were focusing on that we think, well, its fascinating. So we like, we enjoy that, and thats something, a discussion that we engage in, and that brings back to a core of wilsons policies and his identity as well as something that we as a museum can explore. And ryan how you have one from interested involved in what was happening. But at the same time ive been involved to say this is really what it is imparted when you look at the performance in the achievement, their only two of the president s that are put in the same category that is frequent roosevelt and it also johnson can we look at his goal printed with the freedoms, some of that is it with yesterdays looking at how we can educate on those domestic reforms, is something that is a great challenge for us in one of the things youre doing is looking up as heroes in looking at people chemical times and how their lives mightve been changed due to some aspect. For example, looking at how this impacted. [inaudible]. Which was the largest employer during the time. That brings up hope that helps people try to understand was a significant of the consequent on what is a big deal was like like before then. And about. [inaudible]. Just to tell the liberals that they are gone kind of thing and we talk about that. But i do think that such an important piece and sharing that information and even more. In looking at wilson and all the was able to accomplish so were the falls might be there and we havent come up with anything better. But, were still dealing with at 100 years later because nothing has been able to make that legislation change to pass. And i will say that in some ways, comes back to the discussion on race and we have a psalm our Speaker Series, we had people who were part of the Diplomatic Community your the state department africanamericans in one of the things he pointed out was that we can talk about Woodrow Wilson and what we can point to read but we have the opportunity change that over the last 100 years and theres not been them a changes are to have wilson is a turning point, we can do that but we should also been fighting on the line say that white didnt change, we had an opportunity here to change and is really in many ways, not different from 1965, where they say yes there is a change. But even today, he would ask people from the state department and there africanamericans, you can see just on the color of the department, there is still some institutional racism in some communities within the United States government. Yes and thank you. I want to tie both of your comments to some previous comments you both made about the particular organizations purposes and thereof the quest involved and charters involved in the same is true for us. And also the example Woodrow Wilson in washington dc which is a very prominent Woodrow Wilson scholar who is near dear to this particular institution which happened to have graduated from. Try not to embarrass john cooper by revealing that everybody but that is his moderate. And i dont think sort of any like determinism, i think that the interest mostly emerged a lot later. Dc morning bread but or that is a question of who should decide these questions of naming integration, ration of how do you decide who decides differences, is the first real powerful run a discussion about renaming the Woodrow Wilson then, school of public and International Affairs, one from the sort of compromise that was before it was maybe we dont rename the school of International Affairs, because it was named that way to commemorate the constructive legacy in both American Political Development but also an international the growth of International Governance institutions. But why would we rename princeton in which to spend the most intimate vulnerable moments saving eating drinking living in making friends. And the named after someone that they understand and understandably, he might representing an ongoing threat to their comfort and safety and security. Can you imagine her what would you be your argument for maintaining the wilson name both really practical and philosophical. And do have thoughts on the larger question of sort of you decide who gets to decide again we can start with whoever like to go first. I will go first. [laughter] we have actually had this conversation with our board of trustees on the adequate books and what we are doing and for us, not because what is the Educational Institution dedicated to the life and times of Woodrow Wilson. He was a consequential president and the United States so i think we would be doing a real disservice if we change the name to something else. The president ial Library Shall be named or it was out of business basically if we were just to say okay. About this was really where we strongly that there is so much to learn, for example from this individual and from his presidency. We want to make sure the people dont think that we are some sort of trying because that is not who we are. With him being in the museum, and understands that in our goal and as far as playing into whos responsible for the naming how chicago. You know, i just would do whether it is the organization and for them to make a decision and i had lots of individuals contact me to say join you do anything. Thats on our goal. I have enough to worry about. It is not my role to kind of put myself into the business of the University Student goals so i just refer to the words of whatever organization is in that situation. I think it is a great question in practical terms, when i did the revision to the website, our website is called www. Woodrow wilson. Or rg and people find us on google and trip advisor and maps and, i mean, to go in kind of double back on that and find her to change the name, that would be very cumbersome. But it did change the name to Woodrow Wilson housley can also find i think of the underneath the drama, the fed hundred wilson house is interesting how that word got put in there somewhere along the lines and now their Online Presence with that. But to change the name to something else, but would change it to the house on a street or within tell anybody. What a change to the edith and woodrow and sheehan she lived there for 37 years i think that is a fascinating subject rated should we consider changing it. Another is a new move for flare the first lady and research and with the role of first lady is been. That will change as we have women president s. This really a story about Woodrow Wilson and we probably would not change it to the edith and Woodrow Wilson house. But it is a discussion and it is interesting. And also goes without saying the changing edith and Woodrow Wilson house, when not in anyway mitigate the problem with race party to. Not at all. Images compounded. I know that while ways to be home and scholarly in South Carolina has been excellent job they are now the construction rated as an opportunity for museum to do Something Like that to kind of prevent and i think theyre doing wonderful work on that as well so want to highlight that can be done i think that for us. The reason i bring up the question is because i think it is one that at least i can imagine Woodrow Wilson himself saying they should be the people most affected who decide. The problem is that it is also the argument that was used in the south and to maintain segregation all of these other terrible things. So its really complex problem i think and perhaps the best thing to do maybe ironclad rules to be big and to make sure that you talk about it more and more openly rather than less before making any decisions i was like to wrap these things up a little bit early because we live in a zoom agent i think that has that people into the habit of scheduling themselves literally back to back to back want to know if either of the two of you want to make any closing comments or anything that you want to share the defendant or whatever you might want to share with the audience. Even if it is a particular event or somethingorganization to draw peoples attention to her new offering of a website of course i will start printed we, there are a number of events and activities that we have been kind change the conversation of the Woodrow Wilson house. I mentioned some the tours we do in the activism in the exhibitions ledger and exhibition in the garden so we could bring people in during covid19 and have safely that the wilson house and we continue to do that and i think before that date with done on vibrations which i dont know if we had an opportunity to bring this up to one of the topics is about the spring and have the world has changed 100 years and you see it the arts so we do very diverse and different types of exhibitions that are time conversation back to what was a hundred years ago now decisions that were made then, thus forward, what the consequences of those decisions today. We look to have a conversation with people. If there are things that you want to bring to me an email. That is no. Engage in the conversation of what you would like to see changed last week we had someone filming about a town, africa town in alabama. In these the wilson house to film an interview and they mentioned that it was the irony that the africanamerican museum of culture and history would help something at the Woodrow Wilson house and conference that is today to have this kinds of conversations in a slave ship off the coast of alabama. In talking about that at the and thats really progress. Thats what we would want to do and to engage. New audiences by bringing the conversations into a house like Woodrow Wilson house and so i sure that to say keep the conversation going and where only just the tip of the iceberg of the types of conversations that we can have pretty and they can bring in her new idea and no understanding and new perspective. I we welcome that. We would like to see that so i think you and we are going to be doing a number of events this year and look at our new website printed for the things we deal including hopefully will be having a fundraiser. See you all of the wilson house. So i think you. I would talk about the relevance for today and that is the key to what we do here as well. Were so blessed to work with partners. We are really want to be a safe place for people to have these uncomfortable conversations. So we learn and grow in these important that we remain and have a dialogue and look for an increase in the understanding. And as we work, are we then experiencing things are doing is looking at ways been engaged. We want to reach out and where do you think and why the shortcomings. Tell us what you think we are doing well. Thanks really important that we hear from the people. They come and visit us and we are only the for only a few hours south of dc and we are at the intersection of interstate 91, and 54, about 450 minutes on charlottesville, virginia and we are. [inaudible]. We also do have a virtual presence, we want people to engage with our Online Program that will be starting appear in less than a month. Another piece that will want to mention and i think this is key is we find is important for us not to just wait for our community to come to us but that we go to our community and how engaged our week with our community. And for so long the Africanamerican Community and our smell small city, theyre not reach out to them in the way that we should. Only, it will is an understanding we can build trust sometimes it can be hard and to building that has been a name of someone it stands for everything the you stand against. And so, we want to be a partner and move forward with that and having said that, we also are doing on our site. [background sounds]. One of the things that people do not know, that they went in to the home with the individuals and that is a story that we think needs to be told. We are doing our research and trying to find names of the individuals are in through the partnership at James Madison university in the department we found that we have on our site, what looks to be quarters that wouldve helped individuals well before this was born. [inaudible]. And that is where we have a moral obligation to tell to these individuals. And those that believe this as a country and the need to do all we can to tell the story there and so is just one of the things that we are doing here the president ial library. To tell a story of who we are as a country. Will thank you very much and i want to thank elizabeth, the Woodrow Wilson house in washington dc and robin, on the Woodrow Wilson residential library and memorial and museum in virginia for joining us right and also for being as open as they been about the work and the passions and their ideals and the challenges that come with those work in the passions and ideals. And i also want to thank everyone of you join us for this episode in a series now and i would like to point you to our website and you can find previous episodes of the series we address wilsons connection to past and contemporary issues of misinformation and government censorship to lost opportunities for peacemaking in the global arena. And to the politics of the race and wilsons day and our own and i would like to invite all of you to join us for the nexus, which actually is devoted to the life of William Monroe and will be welcoming professor to talk to us. [inaudible]. And famous ms. Encounter between wilson and trotter in the oval office. Not just to further explore but also trotter himself and his career as interstage to ensure that people know that he was much more than someone who got kicked out of wilsons office. And that someone from home we can learn a lot and gain inspirations and ulcers of other ways as well so thank you everybody for joining and please join us again and thank you elizabeth and robin for great