Governor bush was widely considered the frontrunner in the 2000 gop race, but senator mccain won a victory in New Hampshire just two weeks prior to this debate. H won and went on to secure the republican nomination. Bush defeated al gore in one of the most highly contested races in u. S. History. This 90 minute event is courtesy of cnn. Tonight, a crucial debate for the three remaining republican president ial candidates. Joining me in South Carolina, site of saturdays gop primary, senator john mccain of arizona. Former Reagan Administration official, ambassador alan keyes. And Texas Governor george w. Bush. Theyre next on a special edition of larry king live election 2000. This is the South Carolina republican debate. Larry king good evening. A couple of notes before we start. Were at seawells Banquet Center here in columbia, South Carolina, the capital of this state. This event tonight is sponsored by bipec. Thats the South Carolina business and industry political education committee. This is the second such event theyve held. They held one four years ago. We are live, as you can tell. There is an audience here of people enjoying it. We have asked them to remain attentive so that you can listen to everything our guests say. A couple of other notes, this is going to be a freewheeling debate. If one guest wishes to comment on what another says after they finish, they can. Were going to cover as many subjects as we can for the next 90 minutes. There will be only two commercial breaks at 9 30 eastern time, the bottom of the hour, a twominute break, and at 10 00 eastern time, a twominute break. And one personal note if i cough a little, forgive me. Ive got a scratchy throat tonight. Well start with governor bush. Since were being seen all over the world were on Cnn International what area of American International policy would you change immediately as president . Governor bush our relationship with china. The current president has called the relationship with china a strategic partnership. I believe our relationship needs to be redefined as one as competitor. Competitors can find areas of agreement, but we must make it clear to the chinese that we dont appreciate any attempt to spread weapons of mass destruction around the world, that we dont appreciate any threats to our friends and allies in the far east. This president is one who went to china and ignored our friends and allies in tokyo and seoul. He sent a chilling signal about the definition of friendship. When i become the president , im going to strengthen our alliances in the far east. Im going to work with the russians to get rid of the antiballistic missile treaty so we can bring certainty into an uncertain part of the world, and thats the far east as well. We must say to people in that part of the world, dont threaten our friends. Do not threaten our allies. So im going to change the relationship. King and youre going to let them know. Bush of course im going to let them know. Thats what a president does, a president lets them know. King ambassador keyes, what would you change . Mr. Keyes i think the first thing id want to do is to restore respect for the National Sovereignty of this country. King by mr. Keyes i was very much in disagreement with our entry into the World Trade Organization. I think we gave away a portion of our sovereignty that we should never have surrendered to an unrepresentative body that can make decisions according to that treaty that would have direct affect on the lives of americans. It violates the fundamental principle of our way of life. No legislation without representation representative government. I want to see us withdraw from the World Trade Organization and put our approach to trade back on a footing that maximizes the results that we get for the American People. Im not interested in protectionism or withdrawal from the world. But i do think, if you happen to be the sponsors of the most lucrative market in the world, that folks ought to be paying a premium price to enter this market, or else giving us something concrete in return thats of tangible benefit to the whole American People, not just to a handful of international corporations. King senator . Senator mccain china is obviously a place where this one of the signal failures of this administration. Although there are certainly many failures throughout the world. But i would also look very revise our policies concerning these rogue states, iraq, libya, north korea, those countries that continue to try to acquire weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. King and youd do what . Mccain id institute a policy that i call rogue state rollback. I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments. As long as Saddam Hussein is in power, i am convinced that he will pose a threat to our security. The New York Times reported just a few days ago that Administration Officials worry that Saddam Hussein continues to develop weapons of mass destruction. Congress passed a law a couple of years ago, called the iraqi liberation act, the administration has done nothing. We should help them with arms, training, equipment, radio and a broad variety of ways. Until those governments are overthrown, they will pose a threat to u. S. National security. Larry king the governor mentioned nuclear. Are you in favor of the continuation of abandonment of Nuclear Weapons around the world now . Mr. Keyes well, i think we ought to put where Nuclear Weapons are concerned, we have put our own strategic safety first. I think it is very important that we take the antiMissile Defense treaty and set it aside in order to rapidly develop and deploy an antiMissile Defense for the United States. I think it has been a travesty that this administration has stood in the schoolhouse door, dragged its feet, acted as if we were suppose to thank them when they were even willing to talk about this vital necessity for our national security. No, its time we gave the American People and the allies of this country the assurance that can come from our superior technology, make use of it to secure ourselves against rogue states and their missiles, as well as against the communist chinese threat that this administration has contributed to. Larry king do you agree with him . Governor bush well, i agree. I think one of the things we republicans stand for is to use our technologies in research and development to the point where we can bring certainty into an uncertain world. All three of us agree that the president has drug his feet on the development of an antiballistic missile system. All three of us understand, just like i understand, that this nation must not retreat, but can lead the world to peace. I do believe theres an area where we can work with russia in the postcold war era. And thats to work with them to dismantle strategic and Tactical Nuclear warheads. Its called nunnlugar. And when im the president , im going to continue to fund nunnlugar, to make sure that we work with the russians to bring certainty into that part of the world. You see, the russians have got to understand the postcold war era is one where we need to cooperate to bring peace. And, as john mentioned, and rightly so, we must convince them as well, not to spread weapons of mass destruction. Larry king senator, would you meet with assuming mr. Putin is elected in march, would you want to meet with him as a candidate . Other candidates have gone overseas while running for office, or right before the campaign. Senator mccain im not sure that would be necessary. It might be an interesting experience, because i know what is going on in russia. So do a lot of my friends. Larry king but you dont know. Senator mccain but the fact is well, we know that he was an apparatchik. We know that he was a member of the kgb. We know that he came to power because of the military brutality and massacre thats been taking place in russia today i mean in chechnya today. We know that he worked a deal with yeltsin, so that yeltsin would have immunity, and he would be assured of the presidency, rather than basically a contested im very concerned about him. Im afraid mr. Putin might be one of those who wants to make the trains run on time. So, yes, i would meet with him as a candidate, but i think that what i would really like to do is send a message to mr. Putin, that we expect certain behavior out of the russians, and particularly whats going in chechnya today, a cessation of that brutality. And that is a very important strategic part of the world for us. Larry king would you meet with him . Mr. Keyes no, i wouldnt. And i think in fact it would be vital now, and during the course of the campaign, and also in the first months of an administration to make it clear that we were determined to work against the mobocracy, and the mafia that has taken over in russia. And that we are going to seek to work at all levels with those folks who are actually seeking to establish real selfgovernment, that respects basic human rights and that is also going to take an approach that removes power from the hands of those who basically have been using it for criminal purposes. Larry king would you meet with him . Governor bush i dont know. Probably not. Larry king wouldnt you want to meet with the leader . Governor bush maybe, but im going to be trying to win the election. Larry king i was asking, if you are the candidate, would you want to . Governor bush well, i intend to try to win the nomination in the fall as well. If he came over and knocked on i imagine any of our doors, we would open it and listen to the guy. Heres the question though and the verdict on mr. Putin is out. Will he reject the politics inside of russia that has allowed folks to siphon off aid . Will he stand up to the corruption inside that country . Will he welcome rule of law . Will he welcome the marketplace and the great freedoms of the marketplace . Thats the question for mr. Putin. Larry king how will you know without talking to him . Senator mccain thats not encouraging when he cut a deal with the communists rather than the reformers in order to consolidate his power. Mr. Keyes i think were also going to have to be clearer certainly that the Clinton Administration has been, that a Good Relationship with the United States is conditioned on this kind of respect for basic human rights and the requirements of the people. We shouldnt be transferring capital and doing all kinds of things that send a message of business as usual to a regime that hasnt yet shown itself willing to show respect for these basics. Governor bush let me say one other thing. This Current Administration has him been sending all kinds of signals confirming mr. Putin. We dont know enough about him. We dont know enough about this person. America must be diligent and firm. We must expect there to be a Market Evolution in these countries. We understand freedom. We understand freedom, and there are some who want to isolate our nation. We must reject isolationism, because freedoms our greatest export. Mr. Keyes see, but there is one problem, though, and i would have to distinguish myself in one respect, because if were going to talk that way, then i think we ought to apply it to china as well. And sending a businessasusual signal by continuing most favored nation status is wrong. We ought to take the reins of that policy back in our hands and condition each element of the trade relationship on their willingness to respect the basic requirements of decency and of our values and interests. Larry king senator, you concerned about austria . Senator mccain im concerned. A guy whos name was Adolf Schicklgruber was born there, was a corporal in the german army in world war i, and obviously caused us great problems. But this was a free and Fair Election, larry. This was a free and Fair Election by a sophisticated electorate. Larry king hitler was elected in a free election. Well, he won a majority of and appointed democratically. Senator mccain i was going to say, theres your interpretation of history. But the point is that this was a free and Fair Election. We have to watch it, we have to pay close attention to whats happening in the middle of europe in what is viewed by most people as one of the most sophisticated countries in europe. Obviously we need to keep an eye on it. But i dont think the United States of america right now is prepared to overturn a free and Fair Election. And ill tell you what, when the European Union started weighing in, they got a negative reaction from the austrian people and gained more support for this guy than he otherwise would have had. Larry king governor, in what occasion could you describe where you would use arms . Governor bush when its in our National Strategic interests. Europe is in our National Strategic interests. The far east is in our National Strategic interests. Our own hemisphere is in our National Strategic interests. The middle east protecting israel is in our National Strategic interests. And ill give you one clear example in our own hemisphere. If, for whatever reason, somebody tries to block passage through the panama canal, as president of the United States i will make sure the panama canal remains open for trade. Its in our interests to have a hemisphere that is peaceful and open for trade. Larry king what if it was not . What if it was a moral question, senator . Senator mccain i just want to say, its not that simple. Its not that simple because we are driven by wilsonian principles as well as others. There are times when our principles and our values are so offended that we have to do what we can to resolve a terrible situation. If rwanda again became a scene of horrible genocide, if there was a way that the United States could stop that and beneficially affect the situation by the way, we couldnt in haiti. We spent sent 20,000 troops and spent 2 billion. Haiti is arguably worse off. Obviously, its the last resort. But we can never say that a nation driven by judeochristian principles will only intervene where our interests are threatened because we also have values. And those values are very important. Mr. Keyes but our but our, i think our. Senator mccain you know, im not interrupting you, alan. So i think that its important that we always have some complex challenges as to where we must intervene. Because sometimes we find that if genocide is allowed, the consequences of inaction later on in history are far more severe. Mr. Keyes well, several things are true. One, i think we need to end the clinton policy of interventionism on behalf of all kinds of globalist ideas and interests that are of not direct relevance to our interest or to our values. And i frankly think that kosovo was an example of that. I also think we ought to avoid interventions that are based essentially on exaggerated propaganda, and that set the threshold of atrocity so low that, in point of fact, other nations could use that threshold as an excuse to disrupt the peace of the world let me finish by going into other countries in their region on the same excuse. We should be very careful not to become practitioners of aggression, even in the name of good purposes. I think, basically, weve got to send a message to the rest of the world, that we will not be stepping in to intervene in the affairs of other countries on any kind of routine basis, unless the level of atrocity is so clear, that it justifies violating that principle of nonaggression, for the sake of which we have sacrificed tens of thousands of american lives. And i think it would be irresponsible to do what clinton, in fact, has done, and take us on a road of interventionism that sets that threshold so low that i think its a threat to peace. Governor bush yes, i think there needs to be a clear statement of when and if well commit troops. I worry about rwanda. I didnt like what went on in rwanda. But i dont think we should commit troops to rwanda. Nor do i think we ought to try to be the peacekeepers all around the world. I intend to tell our allies that america will help make the peace, but you get to put troops on the ground to keep warring parties apart. One of the reasons we have such low morale in the military today, is because were overdeployed and undertrained. If you talk to the men and women who wear our uniform, who are married, theyre constantly being separated as a result of deployments all around the world. Weve got to be very careful about when and if we commit our troops. Mr. Keyes well, we can still deal. Larry king let john add. Senator mccain obviously we have too much deployment. We should have our troops coming home from bosnia. We shouldnt have gone into kosovo or shouldnt have stumbled into kosovo. There was no need to intervene there. But look, theres only one superpower, and thats the United States of america. And there will be times when the superpower has to do things that other nations dont have to do. And i am convinced that the best way to prevent the loss of blood certainly certainly the lessons of the last century showed us is that there may be times when we have to come in early so that we will prevent a recurrence of what happened with the rise of nazi germany. Mr. Keyes i think. Senator mccain which is a classic example of that. Mr. Keyes i think that what we have to avoid, however, is taking a unilateral approach in these sorts of matters that encourage other countries to shrink from their responsibilities, not to develop their capability and potential, and not to take responsibility for policing their regions of the world. They should not expect that the United States is going to come in and substitute for their responsibility. And if we encourage them to believe that thats going to be the case, we actually destabilize situations, we dont help them. Larry king moved to another area. A man on the sidelines. Do you think this has been a dirty campaign, alan . Mr. Keyes well, frankly, i havent given their campaign a thought. Larry king not a thought. Mr. Keyes i will confess, i spend too much time speaking about the moral crisis of this country, the priority that this nation needs to address, to get back. Larry king so, you have no. Mr. Keyes to its basic moral principles. I have a positive message of my own. I concentrate on that message because i think its of vital importance to this country. I frankly believe that you spend all this time beating up on somebody else because you dont have that much to say yourself. I have too much to say of a positive nature about the future of this country to worry about beating up on my opponents except when specific issues require that we call attention to differences. Larry king all right, governor, what do you make of all these past two weeks, the charges and countercharges . You go and then the senator. Governor bush well, its kind of politics. And john and i shook hands and we said we werent going to run ads and i kind of smiled my way through the early primaries and got defined. Im not going to let it happen again. And we shook hands and unfortunately he ran and ad that equated me to bill clinton he questioned my trustworthiness. Larry king are you saying he broke the agreement with you . Governor bush well, im just saying, you can disagree on issues, well debate issues, but whatever you do, dont equate my integrity and trustworthiness to bill clinton. Thats about as low a blow as you can give in a republican primary. [applause] larry king and thats what and thats what and thats what got you mad to sort of fight back . Governor bush i stand by my ads. I stand. Larry king you wouldnt change any . Governor bush no. I stand by what im trying to do. I mean, when the man says that im spending all the surplus on tax cuts and its not true, im going to define what reality is. Senator mccain senator mccain, did you break a promise . Senator mccain let me tell you what happened. There was an ad run against me, we ran a counterad in New Hampshire, governor bush took the ad down. And then i was beat up very badly by all of his surrogates, called clinton, called clintonlite, called every a hypocrite. I mean, youve seen. Larry king in New Hampshire . Senator mccain no, here in South Carolina. Youve seen it turn on the radio, turn on the television, and unfortunately now pick up the telephone and youll hear a negative attack against john mccain. But let me tell you what really went over the line. Governor bush had an event, and he paid of it, and standing and stood next to a spokesman for a fringe veterans group. That fringe veteran said that john mccain had abandoned the veterans. Now, i dont know if you can understand this, george, but that really hurts, that really hurts. And so five United States senators, vietnam veterans, heroes, some of them really incredible heroes, wrote george a letter and said, apologize, you should be ashamed. Governor bush let me speak to that. Senator mccain you should be ashamed. Now if you want. Larry king is he responsible for what someone else says . Senator mccain well, this same man he stood next to him, it was his event. This same man had attacked his father viciously. Governor bush yes, he did. Let me speak to that. Let me speak to that. Larry king all right. Senator mccain so id be glad to tell you the rest of the story, if youd let me, when its appropriate. Larry king well, let him respond on that point. Governor bush let me let me answer that. Senator mccain you should be ashamed you should be ashamed of sponsoring an event with that man there that had attacked your own father. Governor bush let me Say Something, john. Let me finish. Let me finish. John, i believe that you served our country. And ive said it over and over again. That man wasnt speaking for me. He may have a dispute with you. Senator mccain he was at your event. Governor bush let me finish please, please. Senator mccain he is governor bush let me finish. Let me finish. Larry king all right, let him finish. Governor bush the man was not speaking for me. If you want to know my opinion about you, john, you served our country admirably and strongly, and im proud of your record, just like you are. And i dont appreciate what he said about my dad, either. But let me Say Something, if youre going to be hold me responsible for what people for me say, im going to do the same for you. And let me give you one example. Warren rudman, the man who you had as your campaign man in New Hampshire, said about the Christian Coalition that theyre bigots. He talked about the Christian Coalition in a way that was incredibly strong. I know you dont believe that, do you . Senator mccain george, hes entitled to his opinion on that issue. Governor bush well, so is this man. Senator mccain you paid for an event. Governor bush so is this man. Senator mccain you paid for your. You paid for an event. You paid for an event and stood next to a person. And when you were asked if you would repudiate him, you said, no. Governor bush no. John, what i said what i said let me say what i said. Senator mccain so, let me tell you what happened let me tell you what happened after that effectively. Larry king but i want alan to give me one thing. If you have surrogate making a speech for you today, are you responsible for what he says . Mr. Keyes larry, im sorry. I really am sitting here wondering, because i said we were going out to 202 countries, and is this kind of pointless squabbling really what we want them to see . Larry king but it happened. Mr. Keyes but it happened or not happened, and i dont know whether this is the influence of the media corrupting our process or whether its that personal ambition becomes a substitute for our real focus on substance. But it seems to me weve got a lot more important things. We have got a country that has abandoned its most profound and fundamental principle. Killing babies in the womb every day is a contradiction. Larry king im going to get to that. Mr. Keyes of the declaration of independence. We have got a country with an income tax system that enslaves its people and. Larry king im going to get to that. Mr. Keyes and needs to put that back in their hands. Larry king im going to get to that. Mr. Keyes we have got a School System that needs to be put back into the hands of parents. And all im sitting here listening to is these two guys go on about their ads. It seems to me it seems let their ad people get in the back room and fight it out, and let the American People hear what theyve got to hear about the issues. Larry king im going to. Governor bush lets discuss the issues. Lets the discuss the issues. Larry king all right thats what all right. Senator mccain let me just finish up, ok . So heres what happened. We ran an ad that was a response ad. At a town hall meeting a mother stood up and she said, senator mccain, my son was 13 last year. We had a lot of trouble of explaining things to him that went on in washington. She said, now hes 14. Hes told me not long ago, john mccain is my hero. hes the man i want to be like. Well, last night he came into her room, she said, and he had tears in his eyes because he had answered the phone and the phone call, even though he told the caller that he was 14, said, do you know that john mccain is a liar, and a thief and cheat . well, that night i called my people together. I said, take down our response ad. Were running nothing but a positive campaign from now on. I committed to that, i promise that. Larry king now, are you saying that. Senator mccain i hope george. Larry king george. Are you saying that governor bush was responsible for that call . Senator mccain i dont know who was responsible for it. But i know that the attacks go on. Larry king let me just say one thing. Senator mccain i know that the attacks go on. Larry king let me say one thing about all this business, john. Senator mccain i told you i pulled them all down. Larry king you didnt pull this ad. This had ended up in a mans windshield yesterday. That questions my this is an attack piece. Senator mccain that is not by my campaign. Governor bush well, it says, paid for by john mccain. Senator mccain it is not by my campaign. Governor bush john. Senator mccain thats not that is not by my campaign. Bush well, then somebodys putting stuff up. Senator mccain i pulled them off. Governor bush i agree with you. Senator mccain but youre putting out stuff that is unbelievable, george, and its got to stop. And your ads have got to stop. My ads have all stopped. Larry king im going to end this now. Are you going to pull anything that you now have on . Governor bush im going to stand by what im putting on tv. And what i put on tv was looking in that camera and saying, you can disagree with me on issues, john, but do not question do not question my trustworthiness and do not compare me to bill clinton. Senator mccain weve pulled all ours down. Theres nothing negative on the air and we have insisted that there not be a mean point. Larry king would you disclaim what rudman said if he said. Senator mccain the phone calls. Larry king that you dont agree with that . Senator mccain his phone calls. Larry king do you disclaim what the veteran said if he said it . Senator mccain i did not abandon the veterans. You should have. Governor bush thats right, we didnt abandon the veterans. Senator mccain you should have repudiated your guy. Governor bush i stood up there at that press conference and said, john, youre a man who served our country well. Mr. Keyes but this is the problem, once it starts, its almost impossible to end and why . Larry king im leaving it now. Mr. Keyes no. No, i dont mean it that way, though. No, i dont mean it that way. I mean it in the first place, you know . And i think its time we began to ask ourselves. Why it is that these campaigns degenerate into this kind of stuff, and i think i know why it is. I think its because people are trying so hard to be all things to all people that they refuse to stand forthrightly and make it clear on each given issue where they stand in a principled way and simply speak the truth and let the chips falls. Larry king you said that youd been announcing it in other pieces throughout the past couple of months, but the first time you formulated it as a plan today. Governor bush well, actually, i first laid it out last summer a lot of it. Would you like me to go through it . Larry king no, but one of the networks. Governor bush well, why cant i . Larry king oh no, no, im sorry, of you can go through it. No, what i mean is, one of the networks reported. Governor bush its a great plan. Larry king that this is the first time youve used the Term Campaign finance reform. Governor bush well, thats not true. I started talking about Campaign Finance reform last summer. And i said the following things, we ought to ban corporate soft money, and we ought to ban labor union soft money. We ought to make sure though, that labor bosses cannot spend Union Members money without their permission. Its big difference between what i believe and john believes. Thirdly, we should not allow federal candidates to take money from one campaign and roll it over into another campaign. That ought to be a reform. Larry king i lost count. Governor bush because you were listening so closely. Larry king too closely. Governor bush yes, too closely was that members of the United States congress should not be allowed to raise money, when theres a legislative session that members should not be allowed to raise money from federal lobbyists during a session. Larry king on the corporate end, about unions giving against the will of the member, should stockholders have the right to say whether a corporation can give . Governor bush no, corporations should not be giving at all. Larry king period . Governor bush there should be a ban on corporate soft money. Larry king you should agree with that, right . Senator mccain of course not, because theres a 1 billion. Larry king but today you called it a joke. Mccain yes, theres a 1 senatormccain yes, theres a 1 billion loophole in it. And its called individual contributions. Mr. Bernard schwartz, who is the head of loral corporation, gave 1 million individually to the clintongore campaign in 1996. A series of events then took place. The transfer of technology to china that allowed them to improve the tech their missile accuracy. Larry king are you saying under his plan you could do that . Senator mccain under his plan, mr. Schwartz could walk down there and give that 1 million check tomorrow. And thats the reason why this is. Thats what its all about. Larry king one at a time. Senator mccain thats what its all about. Mr. Keyes let me speak to this whole issue, because these folks sit here, two politicians, arguing about whether or not the people or the United States should have under the First Amendment the right peaceable to assemble and seek to petition the government and seek redress of their grievances. I believe that all this talk where the politicians come in and say think about this, theyre going to control our ability to fund those processes through which we control their activities. And by controlling our funding, i presume they will utterly destroy our First Amendment right. There should be no such regulation by politicians of what we the people can do in our own political process. Larry king but the Supreme Court ruled they could. Mr. Keyes all of this all of this. Frankly, the Supreme Court has ruled roe v. Wade and a lot of other stuff. Larry king well, wait a minute, mr. Keyes and as president of the United States excuse me. As president of the United States i will i will sit in an office that is coequal with the Supreme Court, in which i will have an equal responsibility with the court for the interpretation of the constitution. Let me finish. The constitution doesnt say that. Let me finish. Let me finish, larry. I think that its very simple on Campaign Finance reform. Instead of saying that because these politicians cant act with integrity, we must give up our rights, let the ones who dont have the integrity give up their offices. And lets have a system thats very simple. No dollar vote without a ballot vote. Only individuals capable of voting. Publicize let me finish, though. Publicize it immediately. So that people will know whats what and have no limits whatsoever on the freedoms of the people of this country. Larry king but you would limit. You just said you would limit. Governor bush no, i said that under the First Amendment. Governor bush thats corporate thats money where people have no say, what hes saying. No corporate. Mr. Keyes no unions, no corporate money, no foreign money. No dollar vote without a ballot vote. Governor bush we have the great thing about this country is, individuals should be the participants in democracy. The ultimate extension of some of these Campaign Funding reform plans out of washington, d. C. , will mean that the people who decide who the candidates are and who the victors are will be king if i gave you 1 million, dont you have to take my phone call . Mccain sure. Ask any ask any. King dont you owe me something . Bush not necessarily. But let me Say Something. King no. Mccain ask any exsenator, ask any exsenator, theyll tell you, theyll tell you. Bush one of the things that we need to do one of the things we need to do is to have full disclosure, is to let the sun shine in, is to let everybody know whos giving to whom. I have done that in this campaign. I put it on the internet, who gave to whom. Ive got a lot of contributors. My average contribution, by the way, is about 350 per person. And i want you to know and i want you to know whos given because i dont want to hid anything. I dont like some of the ads run about me. We have the proabortion people running ads on me. I didnt like it. King well, let me take a break. Well come back. This is a twominute break. There will be only one other break and thats in another halfhour. Well reintroduce the candidates, like if you dont know them. When we come back, we will get into other issues, including abortion, other key domestic issues as well. This is a larry king live election special. Dont go away. [applause] king the primary is this saturday. This is the bipec debate at seawells Banquet Center, in columbia, South Carolina. And our guests are alan keyes, the former ambassador, governor george w. Bush, the governor of texas, and senator john mccain, the republican senator from texas. Mccain arizona. King from arizona. Mccain all right, thank you. King i moved you over. King one state over. Mccain i dont think im allowed in texas. King true. Even a goof helps, when you want to have laughs. Ok, you say today that youre the reformer, youre the outsider. Yet 38 senators support you, 175 congressmen, and 26 governors. Thats not establishment . Bush well, lets start with the governors. Those who know me best support me. King but isnt that establishment . Bush let me finish. Ive worked with the governors. They know me well. They know i can lead. These are citizens that care about the future of the country. Theyve stood up and said, we know the mans record, we know his capacity to bring people together, we know his record of reform in the state of texas has had Great Results for our citizens, and we want him to be the leader. And you mentioned the United States senators, thirtyeight have endorsed my candidacy, for which im grateful. These are citizens from all around the world all around the country, including one from South Carolina, named strom thurmond. They took a look at the three of us, and decided that i ought to be the leader. Theyre looking for a fresh voice from outside. They want somebody to provide leadership. And thats why they supported me. You know, i got defined early on as the insider. And i kept telling people my zip code is austin, texas. Thats where i made my stake. Thats where ive developed my reputation, and thats where those results are coming from. And john and alan both have got washington, d. C. , addresses well, maryland i guess. And so i anyway. King ok, fair answer. He said hes still a reformer, hes still an outsider. They support him because they like him. Mccain well, its fair to say that i did not win, again this year, miss congeniality in the United States senate. So i have to admit that to you. [laughter] king youre not popular in the senate. Mccain no, because ive taken on the Iron Triangle special interests, money, and legislation which weve been grid locked by in washington, d c weve taken government away from the people. And young people are being turned off in droves. And the fact is that ive been involved in lobbying gift lobbying ban, gift ban, lineitem veto. Ive attacked porkbarrel spending and wasteful spending, which is now worse than its ever been. In fact, george said that he would have he supported and would have signed a bill, citizens against government waste it was the worst, most , wasteful spending bill in history. And i thought against it thought against it. And i didnt make a lot of friends, because i point out these porkbarrel spendings, these wasteful spendings. King so. Mccain and ill fight for reform until the last breath i draw so that we can get the American People back connected with their government. Im trying to change this party to bring it into the 21st century as a reform party in the tradition of theodore roosevelt. King alan . Keyes i find it so fascinating, we talk about outsiders. I was so far outside this process at one point that the last cycle when we held this debate i wasnt allowed to participate in it. King here . Keyes i think thats pretty far outside. Thats right, here. And in atlanta and elsewhere as well. The only reason im sitting here right now is because i articulate better than most anybody in this country whats on the heart of real republicans and real conservatives around the country, and because i have been out there, not fighting in washington, but fighting at the grass roots, as head, for instance, of citizens against government waste, where you value the praise, i did the work. And so the point being that for both of these gentlemen, who have all the advantages, sit at the apex of a system that supports them in every way, darlings of the media, the person whos out there. [laughter] mr. Keyes excuse me, the person who is out there striving at the grass roots right now to organize folks because of what they have in their heart, not what i have in my pocket, is alan keyes, and reaching folks to such a degree that everybody, even your supporters, acknowledge that the person who presents the republican message best is sitting here, not sitting there. And its about time we asked ourselves. King then why arent you why arent you doing better . Keyes why . The question i asked. Why on earth dont we want to send our best person to face al gore and bill bradley, instead of sending folks into the debate, the halfhearted, the unconvicted, the folks who in point of fact cant make our case as well and effectively as we should make it . King how do you respond to that . Bush well, i respond to it. I put my record on the line in texas. Its the secondbiggest electoral state in the union. It is an important state. You better be able to carry texas in order to become the president. And the people in my state gave me a chance to be the governor for the first time to hold fouryear Consecutive Year terms. I mean, i put my reputation out there. Im a resultsoriented person. I want to say two things. One, im not the darling of the media. [laughter] governor bush king and number two. Bush and number two, its a fundamental question. And the question is, who can go to washington with an agenda thats positive and hopeful and optimistic and convince people to follow . Who can gather up support necessary . Who is it thats got the capacity to stand up in the halls of congress and say, follow me . Who has had the experience necessary to earn the will of the people . King and youre saying that john doesnt. Bush well, im saying well, im saying of the three of us here, ive had the experience and the results that prove i can do so. These are good men, dont get me wrong. But ive been there. Ive been there. I look forward to saying to those United States senators, heres a fresh perspective. King well, if you have trouble getting along with them, doesnt he have a point . Mccain ive had 234 major pieces of legislation and amendments passed when ive been in the United States senate and congress. One of the most successful records, whether it be in the area of reform, whether it be in the important issues of telecommunications, such as it be y2k product liability, whether it be internet tax moratorium, or whether it be in every major Foreign Policy issue that has confronted this country. My credentials are well know. But ill tell you what, the Republican Party has lost its way. They have selected an establishment candidate. I dont blame them for doing that. But they lost the last two president ial elections. They lost the last two congressional elections. And unless we open up this party, unless we do what i did in New Hampshire, and thats get thousands and thousands of young people out to register to vote republican, unless we get independents, reconstitute the old reagan democrats im being criticized now because democrats may like me. I want to reconstitute that governing coalition. I can do it. I can lead and i have had experience in a lot of ways that will. Keyes i think i think that what we did last time we ran experience last time and it really worked well in terms of the result. I would love to take both of these records and sit them in an empty chair in a debate against al gore and see who wins. I think that weve got to remember that what you can do to stand before the American People, articulate whats on their heart, how it relates to the great principles of this country, and how we have to address those principles in order to enter the next century with the confidence that as a decent people we will retain our liberty, not keep handing it off to the government, thats the challenge we face, in a year, by the way, when if the spokesman of the Republican Party isnt able to meet the moral challenge of this nations life, we will lose the election because thats where the democrats are vulnerable. King are you questioning the moral are you questioning the moral challenge of. Keyes i question their ability to articulate on the moral issues of our time, a clear and passionate and convicted case that can persuade and move the people of this country. And if you cant do it, by the way, in this election year, economy booming, world relatively at peace, if we dont go out and attack that moral flank exposed by bill clintons lying, perfidy, oathbreaking, and utter shameless betrayal of our moral heritage, we will lose and we will deserve to lose. King lets take a moral issue. Bush let me say one thing about this. This is a really important part of the debate. This is the fundamental issue that republicans and independents in this state are going to have to look at, who can lead . Who can lead . King morally. Bush with all due respect. King are you talking morally . Bush well, morally any of us at this table can perform better than William Jefferson clinton any of us will bring honor to the office. [applause] but the fundamental question is, when we talk education, for example, whos got a record . Whos got a record of reform. King and he. Bush let me finish. King his question was a moral question. Bush well, thats part of it, no question about it. Part of it is to bring honor and dignity to the office and all three of us will do that. All three of us will do that. But part of it as well is to earn the creditability of the American People, so like when we talk about education, who is it that has reformed the system . Who has got tangible results and can say that our test scores amongst africanamerican students or hispanic students are up . Whos vision is it that is improving a lot of people . Because, you see, if we dont educate our children, its unlikely that the American Dream will be able to touch every willing heart. Thats my record. King are you saying education, governor, is a moral issue . Bush well, im saying education is an incredibly important issue and if we dont educate our children, were going to have real moral problems. Mccain could i make a quick comment . Look, the job that i want to take is to inspire a generation of Young Americans to commit themselves to causes greater than their selfinterest, thats what the great president s in history have been able to do. On election day in New Hampshire, thousands of young people went out, registered republican and voted and voted for me. Cindy and i got on a plane, arrived at the airport in greenville at 3 00 a. M. There were 800 College Students out there. Now, ill admit there was not a mosh pit, but there was certainly an enthusiastic group of Young Americans out there. And thats the enthusiasm were generating and thats what inspirational leadership is all about and i can do that. Keyes two things. I would have to say from what would i first, senator mccain, youve served these youngsters enough beer. I suppose theyll look really enthusiastic. [laughter] [laughter] mccain you know, thats quite a commentary on those young people. Keyes yes, its quite a commentary on them. But its quite a commentary on those who would take young folks, some of them not even of age, and serve them beer. But leave that aside. King are you saying he served beer to minors . Keyes well, look, he he did not do this. King ok. Keyes i presume his campaign did. But second point though, lets take an example of leadership leadership in this campaign. We had a controversy over Bob Jones University and its policies, right . King right. Keyes now it seems to me, when you have a problem like that, does leadership consist of going into Bob Jones University, where serious questions, in fact, do exist about religious bigotry and racial bigotry going in, taking the applause, risking nothing, because you refuse to raise the issues . Thats what g. W. Bush did. Or does it consist of getting on your high horse, refusing to go talk to goodhearted christian people, because you believed a bunch of prejudicial slanders in the press, and then staying away , not even carrying a message of integrity to them . Or does it consist, in fact, in going in, carrying a message of truth and integrity about this countrys moral principles, and then looking them in the eye and saying, im a black Roman Catholic christian, married to an indianamerican women. And if you cant deal with the demons of racial bigotry, and religious bigotry, and cast them out, youll accomplish no good for this country . King why. Keyes which is the better leader . You tell me. King why didnt you speak against bigotry at bob jones . Bush i was asked the question, do i support his policy of no interracial dating . I said, of course not. Of course not. My little brother, jeb, the governor of florida married a girl named columba, from mexico a fabulous part of our family, a great person. So please dont insinuate, in any shape way, shape or form, that i support. King but they couldnt date. Bush well, thats fine, but i walked in and talked about how our conservative cause must be compassionate. Thats what ive talked about. I talked about how the principles of conservatism can lift the spirit of america, how we can improve peoples lives, thats what ive talked about. Keyes in your. Bush thats what i talked you didnt hear my speech. Keyes in your speech, sir, you said nothing about the religious bigotry and racial bigotry. Bush i i talked. Keyes that had in fact to be dealt with. On and if asked basis, these questions are not enough. What i did was look folks in the eye and tell them, im willing to lose every vote over the issue of defending young babes in the womb, and im willing to lose every vote over the issue of standing with integrity against religious and racial bigotry. King you did not speak. Keyes what votes have these folks been willing to risk to stand for any principle . King dont dominate, alan. John. Mccain well, alan, ive been taking a few risks in my life and im proud of those risks. Some of them are proudest points of my life. Look, i was not invited to attend bob jones. I understand that its a fine academic school. If i had been invited i would have gone and i would have started by saying, as i have gone to other places that people are not in favor of me, and i would have said, look, what youre doing in this ban on interracial dating is stupid, its idiotic and it is incredibly cruel to many people. I also happen to have an adoptive daughter whos from bangladesh, and i dont think that she should be subjected to those kinds of things. In fact, i will stand up and fight against those. And so, look. King but you would have gone and said that, but you werent invited. Mccain if id have been if id have been invited, of course, because youve got to bring the message to get these people up into the modern times. King and you said you went you went to deliver a message. Bush i did. King ok. Why didnt you then go to the log cabin republicans, a gay group who you dont agree with, to deliver a message to them . Bush ive got gay supporters. I dont ask their Sexual Orientation, though. King but i mean why didnt you speak, then, before that group . Bush well, they had made a commitment to john mccain. King oh. King but they invited you. And so. Mccain i have no no knowledge that they have made a commitment to my campaign. Bush well, i thought they raised money for you. Mccain it doesnt mean. Bush it doesnt matter. Lets talk about that issue. Each person needs to be judged with their heart and soul. I dont ask the question what somebodys Sexual Orientation is. I dont ask the question. King so if you have gays working for you, thats fine. And you dont have a problem. Youd appoint gays in the cabinet, et cetera. Bush well, im not going to ask what their Sexual Orientation is. King oh, so you wouldnt know. Bush im going to appoint conservative people in the cabinet. Its none of my business what somebodys now when somebody makes it my business, like on gay marriage, im going to stand up and say i dont support gay marriage. I support marriage between men and women. King so if a state were voting on gay marriage, you would suggest to that state not to approve it . Bush the state can do what they want to do. Dont try to trap me in this states issue like youre trying to get me into. King you just did. You have an opinion. [laughter] governor bush i have an opinion. King do you have. Bush in my state of texas, if we tried to have gay marriage, i would campaign against it. King if your state of texas then proposed the confederate flag, you would campaign against it . Bush weve got the lone star flag flying over texas. Lets talk about that issue. King were going to move that. Are you offended . Mccain before we leave that issue, can i say look, i met with the log cabin republicans. I think republicans and president s should meet with every group. We should meet with every group of people. They dont have to agree or disagree. And to say somehow that some people are excluded from our party who identify themselves as republicans i disagree with the log cabin republicans on gay marriages, on the dont ask dont tell, on a broad variety issues. But i agree with them on a stronger defense, lower taxes, less regulation. So were in agreement on some issues. And i, as president of the United States, and i as the nominee of my party, will meet with and not necessarily agree with, everyone in the Republican Party. King do you the senators had a little less time, so i want to hear him out. Do you agree as barry goldwater, who you succeeded in the senate, i believe, told me once that there are gays at normandy . There are gays on bataan . Mccain im sure that all that is true. King why do you sort of. Senator mccain the fact is, those gays were people, as is today in the military, dont ask, dont tell, situation. I support that. I think that george does as well. When you have people like general colin powell, general norman schwarzkopf, our most respected military leaders who tell us that thats the policy that works, that thats the best way we can have the finest army in the world which we dont for other reasons then i have to support a policy that the most respected people in america would support. King do you disagree . Keyes well, several things, its a whole lot easier to go meet with homosexuals when, as senator mccain said in a meeting the other day, i understand you believe homosexuality is not a sin. If you believe it is a sin, then going and meeting with sinners and identifying yourself in that way when youre educating your children to think otherwise is a little harder for you. King but you. Keyes now, i understand that is an issue of conscience. And im not trying to dictate it to anybody and wouldnt try to dictate. But we are living in a Society Today where there is the use of coercive government power to try to prevent people from speaking out and acting according to their religious view on this particular issue, trying to define hate crimes in such a way that biblical beliefs are going to become incitement to hatred. A lot of the christian folks in this country understand whats going on, but apparently these two gentlemen dont. The other thing that i would have to say, the dontask, dont tell policy is typical of the Clinton Administration. It is a dishonest, shameful, dishonorable policy that winks and nods at gay folks to get them into the military, leaves the regulations on the books so that people in authority, if they come into information that somebody has violated those regulations, dont know whether they should or should not enforce them. King what would be your policy . Keyes what happens in a military when you have regulations on the books that you selectively enforce in a way that shows favoritism . You undermine cohesion, morale, for authority. And honesty. Military people should be what you see is what you get, not dont ask, dont tell. Bush the role of the commander in chief is to clearly define what the mission of the military is. The mission of the military is to fight and be able to win war, and therefore prevent war from happening in the first place. The commander in chief must let the general officers understand what the goal is and ask the general officers to prepare a military of high morale and high standing, capable of meeting that mission. And the senator is right. Generals came together and said, this is the best way for us to prepare our military for the mission. And thats whats important to understand as the commander in chief. It is, thats whats important for the commander in chief, alan. Keyes i think its a little disingenuous. The rest of us. Bush nothing is disingenuous. Keyes let me finish, i just said a little disingenuous to pretend. Hold it that the generals came together and begged for this policy, when we good and well know that it was a policy imposed by the Political Forces in this society. King well, let me put this way, mr. Keyes to turn the military into an arena of sexual experimentation in the people. King what would your policy be . Mr. Keyes who are in charge politically didnt have the guts to stand up and defend the military. Thats what happened. Bush youre getting repetitive. Keyes thats what happened. King what would your policy be . Keyes i would return to the ban on homosexual activity in the military. King ban . Keyes return to the ban. Its the only policy consistent with both the integrity of the military, the effort to limit sexual tension throughout the military, and the need to have a policy that can be clearly understood and rigorously enforced. King why is that wrong . Mccain i dont mind being criticized. Its getting to be a regular kind of routine in these debates. But i really do question his comments about our military leaders. General colin powell is one the finest men ive ever known in my life. And to somehow infer that general colin powell was coerced, or forced to adopt a policy that he didnt believe in is a great disservice to one of the greatest men in the history of this country. Mr. Keyes a point of personal privilege, it is not factually on the record you go back and take a look. Those military leaders did not favor this policy in the beginning. They were brought to favor it after Political Leadership failed to stand up in their defense. King is he going to be either of you the secretary of state colin powell . Mccain sure. King sure . Mccain thats one thing im sure well agree on. King your secretary of state, too . Bush im not telling. King its definite that youre saying yes . Mccain oh, hed be marvelous. Bush oh, hes a great man, no question about it. But one of the things we shouldnt be doing, right here on the eve of the South Carolina primary, is speculating out loud on who were going to pick. King why . Bush well, because its listen, were talking about philosophy. You know, we go to one state and soandso is going to be in the cabinet, you know, and go to another state and name somebody else. Thats kind of that cheapens the process. What we need to do is get elected on principles and issues. Mccain theres a few outstanding men ive had the chance to know in my life. He can serve anywhere he wants to in my administration. Bush hes a great man, no question about that. Senator mccain anywhere. Hes the 800pound gorilla. Bush how about your administration . King all right, alan. Keyes well, let me just say, i think im going to wait and see. The kind of folks who are putting together the keyes campaign will be offering an entirely different perspective on our politics, because all of them come from the grass roots of this country, and speak for its heart. King ten years ago sorry, eight years ago on this program, i asked Vice President quayle what he would do in the terrible instance that his daughter needed an abortion. He was very prolife. And he said, well, hed try to talk her out of it. And he would go with her to the clinic. And hold her hand and love her. Governor bush yes, but i will not king would you . Bush im not going to drag my daughter into it. Larry king what do you mean . All right, your niece. Bush no, im not dragging personal. Look, you want my views on abortion, ill give you my views on abortion. I believe the next president should set this goal. Every child, born and unborn, protected in law and welcomed into life. Thats what the next president ought to do. The president and the question is which one of us can lead america to appreciate life. The political questions around abortion are these, and this is one thats going to differentiate us from the democrat nominee, for example, is i will sign a ban on partialbirth abortion. All three of us will sign a ban on partialbirth abortion. Vice president gore, if hes the nominee, will sit there and justify it. I dont know how he can justify partialbirth abortion. A leader is someone that brings people together and understand the power of adoption. John is a loving adoptive parent, thats a its a loving act, its a loving alternative to abortion. A leader is someone who brings people together, both republicans and democrats in my state, to pass a parental notification law, a parental notification law that will reduce abortions in the state of texas. King should the woman be punished, john . Mccain no. King she starts the crime. Mccain george, do you believe in the exemption in abortion, case of abortion, for rape, incest and life of the mother . Mccain then, you know, its interesting, you were talking about printed material thats mailed out. Heres one that says that george w. Bush supports the prolife plank. The prolife plank. Bush i do. Senator mccain yes. Your position is that you believe theres an exemption for rape, incest and the life of the mother, but you want the platform that youre supposed to be leading to have no exemption. Help me out there, will you . Bush i will, i will. Mccain thank you. Bush the platform talks about it doesnt talk about what specifically should be in the constitutional amendment. Senator mccain the exemptions in it. Bush please let me finish, john. Mccain and you know that very well. Bush john, let me finish, let me finish. The platform speaks about a constitutional amendment. It doesnt refer to how that constitutional amendment ought to be defined. Senator mccain the platform, it has no exceptions. Bush john, i think we need to keep the platform the way it is. This is a prolife party. May i finish, please . We need to be a prolife party. We need to say, life is precious and thats what our platform refers to. And thats why we need to leave it the same. Now, i fully recognize good people can disagree on this issue. But the fundamental question amongst the republicans is which one of us has got the capacity to lead our nation to understand the value of life those of , living, those yet unborn, and those elderly in america who are subject to physicianassisted suicides, for example . King alan, you say a life is a life, period, right . Mr. Keyes first of all, i think that is a perfect illustration, this discussion of the problem we have in the party. One individual who doesnt really accept the prolife position of the party, and another who says he accepts it, but then takes positions that are inconsistent with it, so when push comes to shove he wont be able to defend it. And both willing to take at a personal level a position that will destroy you in debate against the democrats. When al gore stands there or bill bradley and looks you in the eye, one of you or the both of you, and says, senator mccain, you said your daughter, that would be her decision. It would be up to her to decide, how on earth can you represent a party that would take away from every other American Woman what you would give to your own daughter . These are folks let me finish who take a position that they cant defend and will then go out and represent us in such a way that we get defeated by our opponents. Larry king ok. Mr. Keyes it is time we stopped doing this because this doesnt make any sense . Larry king we owe senator mccain some time so im going to let him take the stage. Mccain i told you this once before, alan, and im sorry i have to tell you again. Ive seen enough killing in my life, a lot more than you have. I know i know how valuable and precious human life is, and i will not listen to your lectures about how i should treat this very important issue of the sanctity of human life. So, i hope youll give me the respect that i give you and do not bring, please, my daughter into it. It is a family decision. Thank you very much. Keyes see, but its a family decision. Mccain thank you very much. Keyes lets be fair to the American People, senator. Senator mccain thank you very much. Lets leave my daughter out of it please. Keyes lets be fair to the American People. Im a prolife person. That prolife position applies to women who are daughters and who are wives. Larry king we need a break. We will be right back. We have a half hour to go. And Jeff Greenfield will moderate a panel talking about what you are watching. Dont go away. King were back on this special larry king live election 2000 edition, coming to you from seawells Banquet Center in columbia, South Carolina under the auspices of bipec, the South Carolina business and industry political education committee. Senator mccain, much has been made in these past debates about tax proposals. And we know that alan keyes is against the tax. Would you simply for me, whats the essential difference between yours and the governors . Mccain we have two surpluses, one that goes into the Social Security trust fund. There is 2 trillion there. If george bush or alan keyes, or donald duck were president of the United States, there would be 2 trillion in there because thats the payroll tax that people pay. Then we have the other nonSocial Security surplus. I want a balanced approach. A working families tax cut governor bush has 38 of his tax cut go to the wealthiest one percent of americans pay down the debt, Social Security and medicare. If were going to save Social Security, weve got to take a bunch of the nonSocial Security surplus, pump it into the Social Security system, because we all know that it is going broke. If we do that, then people can then invest part of their own payroll taxes in investments of their choice. The difference between governor bushs proposal and mine, is that i put a whole lot of money into Social Security, medicare and paying down the debt. He puts a whole lot of money into tax cuts. And thats the difference. King and why, before he responds, is reducing the debt more important than a tax cut . Mccain because wed lay this obligation on another generation of Young Americans, 3. 6 trillion. At town hall meeting after town hall meeting, i have average americans stand up to me and say to me, senator mccain, all these years of running deficits, weve accumulated this debt. We are paying more interest as , much interest, almost, on it as we are in spending on national defense. We ought to pay down that debt, and not saddle the next generation of Young Americans with it. King one of the problems in selling that, though, is the debt does not call you. The debt doesnt bug you today, right . Right . Mccain look, Alan Greenspan just recently said we shouldnt have these massive tax cuts like governor bush is proposing. But working families need the tax cut. King governor . Governor bush what Alan Greenspan said, is if its possible to discipline congress to pay down the debt, thats fine. But short of being able to discipline congress which i dont think we can do that we ought to have a tax cut. Thats exactly what Alan Greenspan said. My plan is this. There is a 4 trillion projected surplus. Now my plan is this. There is a 4 trillion projected surplus. 2 trillion of it goes, as john mentioned, to Social Security which by the way, pays down debt in the Social Security system. We retire 2 trillion of debt. I spent about have of that the remaining on tax cuts, and half of it as a cushion, perhaps more debt repayment, perhaps emergency spending. The difference between our plans is, i know whos money it is were dealing with. Were dealing with the government were dealing with the peoples money, not the governments money. And i want to give people their money back. And if youre going to have a tax cut, everybody ought to have a tax cut. This kind of washington, d. C. , view about targeted tax cuts is tax cuts driven by polls and focus groups. If you pay taxes in america, you ought to get a tax cut. Under my plan, if youre a family of four in South Carolina, making 50,000, you get 50percent tax cut. Ive reduced the lower rate from 15 percent to 10 percent, which does this and this is important. There are people on the outskirts of poverty, like single moms who are working the toughest job in america. If she has two kids, and making 22,000, for every additional dollar she earns, she pays a higher marginal rate on her taxes than someone making 200,000. You bet i cut the taxes at the top. That encourages entrepreneurship. What we republicans should stand for is growth in the economy. We ought to make the pie higher. Bush but i also hear those voices, larry, i hear those voices on the outskirts of poverty. And ive got a plan that says to her, were going to reduce the tolls to the middle class. Thats what were saying. We reduce their high marginal rate. If somebodys working hard, they ought to put more money in their pocket. And theres a fundamental difference of opinion. So my plan saves and strengthens Social Security. It pays down debt. But it recognizes the most risky proposition is to leave money to be spent in washington, d. C. King the person making 1 million a year gets what kind of reduction . Bush goes from 39. 6 to 33 percent. But by far the most. Mccain its 50,000. Bush let me finish please. But by far the vast majority of my tax cuts go to the bottom end of the spectrum. And this language about governor bushs only has tax cuts for the rich, sounds exactly like al gore. Mccain see, thats what he took offense of when i talked about bill clinton. But let me just make one comment. Its not its not the washington mentality, its the grownup mentality. Its the grownup mentality that recognizes that we have obligations and weve got to pay them off. Again again, george says that if it come in washington, Congress Might do something about it assume it might spend it. Assuming that the president of the United States is a hapless bystander. Right now bill clinton is forcing the congress of the United States, with threats of veto and shutdown of the government, to spend more money. I, as president of the United States, will force with vetoes and threats of shutdown, the government to pay less. And i believe thats what a president can do. Bush excuse me. Let me say one thing else. Mccain and i if they override my veto, ill make them famous. Mccain because i can stop it. I wont be a hapless bystander. I wont say congress will just spend the money. Bush let me speak. King alan has got to go yet. Bush one thing and then he can speak. That shows the difference in mentality. I dont trust congress, i trust people. And i want to give people their money back. This is a realistic plan that i am going to get done. And john, you know, grownup or nongrownup. You know i know thats kind of a line youre trying to come across with. King pretty good one. Bush no. Its weak. King that sounds pretty good. Bush weak. Either you trust the people or you trust government. And our Republican Party ought to stand for trusting the people to spend their own money. To give people the taxes are the highest theyve been since world war ii. Sorry. Keyes dont apologize. Because i actually think that last sentiment is exactly right. Bush thank you. Keyes dont trust the people, trust the government. The only problem is, if you really. Bush no, trust the people. Keyes if you really no, if youre going to right. laughter bush you should trust the people. Yes. Keyes trust the people, yes. If youre going to trust the people then why have this debate in which you have two folks arguing over how theyre going to use their gatekeeper role to determine how much of your own money you get to keep . Thats what the income tax system does to america. It is not the system our Founding Fathers put in place. The system they put in place as compatible with the status of a truly free people, is a system where you go out, you earn 100, you bring that hundred dollars home, and until you decide what to do with it the government doesnt get a look at it. Let me finish. King and who lights your street lamp . Keyes you dont let me finish you dont wait for the government to you dont have to wait for some politician to give you your tax cut. By avoiding expenditures on the taxed items out there you will be able to avoid the tax. Why . Because under that original constitution the government was funded with tariffs, duties and excise taxes, sales taxes, that you dont pay on your income. And since you dont pay them on your income, by the way, you dont get into this humiliating business of having these politicians arguing over how much of your own money you get to keep and you dont. King do any of you favor excise taxes . Keyes let me finish. You didnt interrupt their description of their plan, dont interrupt mine. King yes, because theyre owed so time and youre not. laughter keyes one last question, because its also true, though. Bush let me finish. Discovering that people were free for not doing the crime. They got out because of dna. Can we assume that is a pretty good idea, a lot of people have been released from prison, from i presided over executions in my state. Im convinced that everybody who was convicted was guilty of the crime. Let me finish. These are people who had full access to the courts of law. Theres no doubt in my mind that each person whos been executed in my state was guilty of the crime committed. When the Death Penalty is administered in a swift and sure and fairway, it will save lives. King well, lets say an innocent is electrocuted. Bush no one has been executed. King but illinois knows that. Bush well, if thats the case, then thats fine for the governor to do what he did. Youre asking im the governor of texas. I presided. King if you found. Bush . Over executions in my state. Mccain oh, i think that the new technology of dna would, i think, provoke a review, clearly, of cases that may be questionable, but i certainly wouldnt abandon the Death Penalty. But if there is evidence that maybe there is some controversy where a dna, with this new technology, could help authenticate the fact that the person was guilty of the crime committed, theres nothing wrong with that. But i think its important that we recognize that the Death Penalty is an appropriate punishment for some crimes. King do you agree . Keyes i think thats absolutely right. King even though. Keyes i think in fact the Death Penalty is required if were to show proper respect for life in the morality that we inculcate through the law. The law has to be the first educator, and the Death Penalty is part of educating people that theres an absolute line you shouldnt cross. King all right, hopscotching to some other things, what do you think about racial profiling, governor . Bush against it. King and if you were president , you would sign that executive order. Bush i would work with state Police Authorities to make sure they dont racially profile. Mccain of course, of course, but let me point out now that we had some people come across our or try to come across our border that were terrorists. If you can specifically identify a suspect, and have the drawing that the description then clearly, you will want to stop people that fit that description. King but you dont stop everyone with a turban or a. Mccain but you dont stop you dont stop everybody just for any reason. But lets be clear. The security of our borders was nearly violated a short time ago, and we have to be far more vigilant than weve been in the past. King alan . Keyes i know everybody thinks that this doing some favor to a racial group, but if our police and enforcement people have the experience that a given crime is disproportionately being committed by folks from a given ethnic group, we are now going to pass a law that says you cant notice that . King but they havent done the crime yet. Keyes excuse me, no, no. All im saying is were going to pass a law and were going to enforce a law that says that we cant notice the characteristics of individuals who commit crimes and develop profiles to help folks pursue the solving of crimes based on our experience. Experience by the way is not prejudice. Prejudice is an opinion you form apart from experience, prior to experience. An opinion formed based on experience is not prejudice. It is judgment. And i think our Law Enforcement officers ought to be able to. King you wouldnt mind being stopped by a car if there was a high prevalence of. Keyes you know the person i would blame for that . If there are black folks out there disproportionately committing certain kinds of crime, my parents raised me to know that i represent the race in every thing i do. And i wish that everybody would take that attitude and stop committing crimes and doing things that bring a Bad Reputation onto people. King but if you were stopped. Keyes thats what i resent. King if you were stopped you wouldnt be angry . Keyes i just told you who i would be angry at. Bush we had we had an advance man of mine, an hispanic guy in the state earlier primary state im not going to tell you which one who got stopped. And he got stopped because he was in the wrong part of town evidently. And i didnt appreciate that. Now you know, this. Mccain george is right. Some bad things have happened. They should be stopped. King all right. This conservativeliberal thing, are you saying john mccain is a liberal . Bush no, im not. King well, you mentioned conservative lie, implying that he is not. Bush no, im not implying anything. John john mccain can define his own positions, and ill define mine. King do you think he is a conservative . Bush yes. I also think hes a fine man. King why mention conservative in a race where everybodys conservative . Bush because im more conservative on certain issues. Mccain because we all. laughter we dont like to go around portraying ourselves as liberals. laughter thats number one. Bush you see, let me Say Something about all this business. And you know and i know, your taking umbrage of john, and arguing. But the truth of the matter is, what were trying to do is to nominate somebody to end the clinton era. Thats exactly what were in the process of doing. Our objective is to end the clinton era in washington, d. C. And thats what this primary is all about. And one of us is going to emerge. One of us is going to emerge. And the objective has got to breathe some common sense and integrity into washington, d. C. Thats what the primarys all about. Keyes that is wonderful, you know. King no, let john go, so we can get squared on time. John. Mccain i believe that. King by the way i call you by your first names. Forgive me, but i know you all so well, and so long, that sometimes it slips. I dont say governor. I dont say ambassador. I dont say senator. Bush we wont hold it against you. King ok, thank you. laughter mccain please call me senator. laughter or your highness. Look, george bush is a good man. Alan keyes is a good man. We have some differences of opinion. This campaign spiraled down. I want the negativism out of it. The people of South Carolina deserve better than what theyre getting, and we want to lift up america, and not tear down people. But let me just say, im a proud conservative. I believe that my two opponents are proud conservatives. But what this is really all about is articulation of a vision for the future of this country and how we will lead it. No one knows what challenges we face, both foreign and domestic, as we go into the next century. And i think this campaign is all about vision. King do you think youve been labeled liberal . Mccain well, ive been labeled everything except i think they missed fascist. [laughter] but this is listen, ask observers, this is probably the Nastiest Campaign that people have seen in a long time. But look, im enjoying it. This is a great and exhilarating experience. King but you are bush john, youre mccain im Luke Skywalker getting out of the death star. Bush john, if i look crosstalk bush john, hey john, one thing is mccain im having a lot of fun this campaign. And im enjoying it very, very much. Bush listen, youre playing the victim here. Wait a minute. Remember who called who untrustworthy. Mccain you remember who made the first ad that said i was going to raise taxes by 40 billion, george. Keyes can i make a substantive remark here . [laughter] i would like i would like. Bush please do. Please do so. Keyes excuse me. The rhetoric sounds good about ending the clinton era and not and let everybody be called conservative. But words have no meaning if you can apply those words to things so radically different that they have no similarities. So lets not disrespect the language. And i find it hard to believe one is going to end the clinton era by continuing his policies of dont ask, dont tell in the military, continuing his trade policies toward the World Trade Organization and china and so forth and so on, basically continuing federal domination of education, continuing the income tax system. We have folks calling themselves conservative all over the map who are just going to continue the same junk we get from the Clinton Administration. King all right. Keyes whats the point of the label . King does it annoy you that the president S Performance rating is high . Character rating low, performance rating high. Bush it doesnt amaze me. King it doesnt. Bush i mean, it doesnt annoy me, it amazes me. It amazes me. King you mean because people think hes doing a good job amazes you. Bush yes. It must be the Dow Jones Industrial average. Theres much more to life than the Dow Jones Industrial average. King two percent unemployment . Bush the Dow Jones Industrial average is high, but theres a lot of people wondering whether or not the future in america belongs to them. Our failed schools are creating two societies in this country, and we better have a president to do something about it. And if youre suggesting im going to federalize the Education System like you have, you dont know my plan, you just dont know my plan. King how do you explain how do you explain the performance . Mccain i explain it because we are in such incredibly prosperous economic times. But there are also polls that show, for example, 54 percent of the American People are suffering from, quote, clinton fatigue. And as fast and as far as the Vice President wants to run away from him, theres an old saying that you might remember about joe louis said about billy cohn ph , and this is true about al gore he can run, but he cant hide. King do you all of you, expect a tough race in november, is that correct . I mean. Bush well, let me say one other thing about clinton. Theres not a lot of mothers and dads naming their sons bill clinton. laughter king all right, i want to i want to weve got about 10 minutes left. Mccain jefferson, perhaps. laughter bush yes. King weve got about 10 minutes left, and im going to give each of you a kind of minute and a half to wind things up. So in these final moments, just some hopscotching for topics around the world. Mideast, jerusalem, should it be the capital of israel . Bush yes. King yes . Keyes i think we ought to recognize it, yes. Mccain immediately. And thatll make the Peace Process much simpler. King simpler . Mccain sure. Because as soon as the palestinians and others know exactly where that capital is, then itll be off the table. King should the United States be involved in trying to settle not with arms disputes . Keyes yes, absolutely. We should show that leadership. King we should have been involved in ireland and england and. Keyes i think its part of the role we play, given our position in the world, yes. Where we can play it constructively, we ought to do it. Mccain i give senator George Mitchell and the Clinton Administration credit for a fine job in northern ireland. Not any place else in the world that i can think of. But sure we should. And again, i want to point out that being made worlds number one superpower has great luxuries, it also has great responsibilities and we have to understand those. King will you. Bush actually, unfortunately, the mitchell effort was a good effort but its falling apart and but i think we ought to work to keep the peace. And the danger is is that a president who worries about his standing in the polls will try to impose an american solution. For example, in the middle east, we cant have that. In order for there to be a real peace, both parties must agree to the terms, they must come to an agreement amongst themselves. And so, the role of the United States is to encourage and to mediate. King are you saying that as president the polls wont matter . Bush they shouldnt matter. I mean, im talking about whether or not somebody, you know, is trying to earn a nobel Nobel Peace Prize and, therefore, take our friends and demand that our friends accept something thats unacceptable to their people. We cant be a we cant dictate the terms of the peace and we must lead the process to achieve peace. King does Public Opinion count . Mccain as president of the United States, on a Foreign Policy issue, i will never take a poll. If in june of 1950, when north korea attacked south korea, if harry truman had taken a poll, wed have never gone. That was an important chapter in our winning the cold war. I will never take a poll. In the most obscene chapter in recent American History is the conduct of the kosovo conflict when the president of the United States refused to prepare for ground operations, refused to have air power used effectively because he wanted them flying he had them flying at 15,000 feet where they killed innocent civilians because they were dropping bombs from such in high altitude. No, i will never, ever take a poll on a matter of national security. Keyes well, i dont take polls in politics now, so i certainly wouldnt be taking polls in Foreign Policy. But i would say this, though. I hope that by that, you dont mean to imply that the president doesnt have a responsibility to develop a sound base of Political Support in this country for his Foreign Policy. In vietnam, we learned the horrid results that occur when you dont have that kind of president ial leadership. So polls, no polls you do have a responsibility to represent the American People, and to persuade them of what you are doing in Foreign Policy, and not to commit them to war unless they support you in it. King we discussed the nuclear question earlier. Are any of you in favor of reduction of nuclear arms . Bush not yet. King no . Bush i want to make sure the russians comply with salt. Mccain no, because we need to continue the triad. Before we break one of those legs, wed better be pretty sure that theyre not necessary. But we do need to pursue weapons we do need to pursue ballistic defense systems. And i want to say, im going to call some admirals and generals over, and some civilian secretaries over to the white house, and knock some heads together. We need more progress on this Missile Defense system. Bush well, its a failure of leadership in the Clinton Administration. They just dont want to put something in place. King tax the internet . Bush i think we need to keep a moratorium in place. We dont know what the world is going to look like three to five years from now. And i think we ought to keep the moratorium in place. Keyes id keep the moratorium in place for a while. But i also would forewarn people that commerce on the internet once the whole thing gets established, and you have the infrastructure and base for it, is going to be taxed. I think its unfair to lie to folks about that, because eventually, as enough commerce moves into that arena, dont tell me the politicians will resist it, because they wont. Mccain as president of the United States, i will veto any bill that crosses my desk that reinstitutes the sales tax. Weve got to make it permanent so these people that are making huge and massive investments in the internet will have the confidence that it wont be taxed. Look we cant choke this baby in the cradle. I dont care about these governors. Were talking about the engine of americas economy. And they ought to understand that. Theyre running surpluses. They ought to get their greedy hands off it so that American Economy can grow and develop as it should. Bush are you suggesting that governors are greedy . Keyes its the not the governors. The governors are speaking for a lot of people out there, working in the nonvirtual marketplace who are going to look at it awfully strangely that theyre operating a little store in their town and theyre going to be taxed, but somebody who goes out to the internet, once it is established, isnt going to be taxed. I see no grounds for it. King do you keyes once it is established we should treat it like any other business. Bush there should be no access tax on the internet there should be no federal tax on the internet. Mccain no state tax. Bush wait a minute. What we need to do is make sure we understand before we Say Something like that, that we know where the world is headed. Were just learning and thats why the moratorium is important. Mccain weve learned enough. King were close on time. Do you do you gentlemen think that inherently that any american is entitled to get a prescription . Bush inherently any american is entitled . King yes, in other words that entitled. In other words, if someone needs a drug. Bush inherently, what our elderly need is a modern medicare plan that will provide Prescription Drug benefits, just like federal employees get. King does everybody in other words, do you feel everybody who needs a prescription should get it . Bush do i feel that health care ought to be affordable and accessible . Yes, i do. But its not going to be affordable and accessible if we have an al gore or a bill clinton try to nationalize health care. Keyes i think you have to be very careful because if you say that, then that means that somebody else, whether theyre paid or not, is obliged to provide that Prescription Drug. King yes, but you dont want to let someone die. Keyes excuse me. Excuse me, but thats slave labor, sir. I think we need a marketoriented system that is going to provide access and benefits to all. And thats what i would work to achieve. Mccain every american should have access to health insurance. But weve got a big problem in america right now, and thats seniors who cant afford Prescription Drugs. And weve got to address that right now. And if it requires a Government Program, then ill support a Government Program to do that. King whats going to happen saturday in carolina . Bush right here . Keyes were going to have an election. laughter king no, i mean, are you going to win . Bush yes, i am going to win. And the reason why is because the people have heard my message. That im coming with a message of as a reformer whos gotten positive results in education, in welfare, in business growth. King alan, howre you going to do . Keyes its in gods hands. I mccain were going to do just fine. I think, were going to do just fine. I think were probably going to win. I think its going to be close. But really, you know, when you talk about reform, the key to reform is getting the government out of the hands of the special interests. And youve got to have a real Campaign Finance reform plan, not one that leaves a 1 billion loophole. Keyes well, i think its just very important that republicans go to the polls and vote their heart and conscience. Ive been hearing from too many people that they think i say the right things, i represent the right vision for the country, it is the way we ought to go, we need to restore our moral priorities, our allegiance to the principle that our rights come from god and must be exercised with respect for the authority of god, reclaim our liberties, abolish the income tax, get School Choice in place in a comprehensive way. And now i ask, you going to vote for me . No. You never get what you want if you dont vote for what you believe in. If you dont have the guts to vote your conscience, then this country will never get back on the right track. King governor bush . Bush well, i want to thank all my friends here in South Carolina. There have been a lot of folks who have worked hard on my behalf. Theyve heard my message that if youre sick and tired of the gridlock in washington, lets bring a leader into washington, d. C. If your tired of this business about pitting one group of people against another, why dont we have a uniter, not a not a divider as a leader . If you want somebody whos going to have an agenda that is positive and hopeful and optimistic; a growth agenda for our economy, a peace agenda for the world, an education agenda that refuses to leave children behind, theyre hearing that call. Theyre saying, we want government bush. And so i want to thank the people of this state and i want to ask for the vote. I want you to go out to the polls on my behalf on saturday and vote for me. And if youre for me, take some friends and neighbors with you. laughter king senator mccain . Warm reception, and friendships mccain i want to thank the people of South Carolina for their wonderful and warm reception, and friendships that we have made here the town hall meetings, the trips all around the state have been truly marvelous. I want to reform the government, obviously. I want to reform education, the military, health care. I cant do that unless we get the government out of the hands of the special interests. Some have come lately to the reform agenda. Ive been there for years, and ive been fighting it and well win as weve won on other reform issues. But most of all, id like to end up by recounting a story that happened at my 100th town hall meeting in New Hampshire. A lady stood up and she looked me in the eye and she didnt have a question. She said, senator mccain, its vitally important to me that the next president of the United States always tell me the truth. I promise you as president of the United States, based on my life, my principles and the caution of my old dear friends, i will always tell you the truth, no matter what. King youd take the same oath . Bush absolutely. Keyes of course. King we want to thank everyone here. The South Carolina business and industry political education committee, bipec, for putting this thing together in extraordinary circumstances. We want to thank senator mccain and ambassador keyes and governor bush. Want to thank seawells Banquet Center herein columbia. Want to urge you to vote on saturday if you live in South Carolina. There are two big primaries coming next week too michigan and arizona. Please vote there. Also stay tuned as Jeff Greenfield will moderate a Panel Following this debate about this debate. From columbia, South Carolina, for all the folks here in the room, for our candidates, thank you very much for joining us. Im larry king. Good night. [applause] during campaign 2016, cspan takes you on the road to the white house as we follow the candidates on cspan, cspan radio, and cspan. Org. Arevery election cycle we reminded how important it is for citizens to be informed. Its a way to track the government as