Committee, this is an hour and a half. Today the committee will examine the Justice Departments enforcement of a Foreign Agents registration act. I want to thank the witnesses here today for working with the committee to schedule this hearing. I know that some of you even had to change your travel plans and i want you to know that the committee appreciates your cooperation. We had to postpone this hearing while trying to schedule two new witnesses and obtain the cooperation of a third who was first invited on july the 5th. It is unfortunate when uncooperative witnesses cause unnecessary inconvenience for those of you who are easy to work with. After a failed negotiation with the committee to, in good faith, i issued a subpoena with in the cooperation with senator feinstein to Glenn Simpson for his appearance today. I withdrew the subpoena after mr. Simpson agreed to a transcribed staff interview about, number one, his involvement in creating the trump dossier and, number two, his alleged work with the unregistered Foreign Agents who met with the trump family and campaign officials. Regarding mr. Manafort, negotiations for a similar agreement that Ranking Member feinstein and i were working on with him and i issued a subpoena for his appearance. On tuesday night, following consultation with the Ranking Member and a document production from mr. Manafort, i withdrew the subpoena and we continued negotiations for a future transcribed interview. With respect to mr. Trump, he agreed early on to cooperate, produce documents and do a voluntary transcribed interview. So no subpoena was necessary in that case. So these three, then, will not appear on panel two today. Todays topic as important now as it was in 1938 when congress enacted the law. There are two qualifications to be considered a Foreign Agent under the Foreign Agents registration act. The first is working directly or indirectly for a foreign principal. A foreign principal can be a Foreign Government, Political Party, corporation or a single individual. The second requirement is involvement in a political activity to influence u. S. Policy either as a publicity agent or a lobbyist among others. The basic idea is that foreign propaganda should not lurk in the shadows but should be fully transparent. The Foreign Agents registration act does that by requiring agents to register with the Justice Department. People should know if Foreign Governments, Political Parties or other foreign interests are trying to influence u. S. Policy or Public Opinion. Given recent russian and other efforts to influence our elections, this law has never been more important. Unfortunately, it appears that the Justice Department and the fbi have been seriously lax in enforcing the Foreign Agents registration act and for a long time. In the past 12 years the department has only sent 178 letters to people it believes should register as a Foreign Agent. Thats only 15 letters a year. Now, compare those 15 letters with what the Justice Department thinks that i send they happen to think i send more oversight letters than that in one week. Only nine people in the entire Justice Department work full time to enforce this law and monitor potential unregistered Foreign Agents. Its no surprise, then, that only 400 Foreign Agents are currently registered. Does anyone here seriously think that only 400 people in the whole United States take foreign money for pr and lobbying work . The Inspector General said the fbi investigators and Justice Department officials cant even agree on what makes a good case for enforcement of this law. It is then no surprise that the Inspector General found that there is no comprehensive Department Enforcement strategy on fara, thats the acronym for the law. Between 1966 and 2017 the Justice Department brought only seven criminal fara cases. So listen to this, it has been 26 years since the Justice Department used civil injunction relief to enforce this law. Now then why comply when the Justice Department clearly doesnt treat this law as a priority . In an april, 2015 letter to then attorney general holder i wrote about Sidney Blumenthals efforts. News articles reported that mr. Blumenthal transmitted documents to secretary clinton on behalf of a Political Party in the country of georgia the Justice Department never explained why they thought he didnt need to register. If they didnt think it required registration, it should say so particularly when the Trump Administration has required Lieutenant GovernorMichael Flynn to retroactively register under the law in large part because he wrote an oped for the hill newspaper. The administration also requires Paul Manafort to register for their work on behalf of the ukrainian government. Recently theres been a lot of reporting about other unregistered Foreign Agents attempting to influence u. S. Policy. For example, a group of unregistered russian agents allegedly worked to undermine the magnitsky act. That 2012 act was passed in honor of Sergei Magnitsky who uncovered massive financial fraud in russia involving corrupt russian government officials and organized crime. He was then arrested by the same corrupt officials and later died in russian prison under suspicious circumstances. The magnitsky act allows the president to sanction individual human rights abusers and freeze their assets in the u. S. The law was passed through a tireless effort of William Browder who will testify here today. Mr. Magnitsky was mr. Browders lawyer and friend. In 2016, mr. Browder filed a complaint with the Justice Departments fara enforcement unit. He alleged that a group of unregistered agents were working on behalf of the russian government to get rid of the law named after his late friend. He said these unregistered agents lobbied congress. He said they organized a screening of a propaganda video with hill staffers and state department officials. The propaganda video smeared mr. Magnitsky and mr. Browder. What this video represents is a pretty cute operation, the Foreign Agents also published propaganda to news outlets trying to get bogus stories published by respectable organizations, as we learned after this hearing was scheduled, they apparently lobbied the Trump Campaign and the trump family. Yet the Justice Department didnt require any of them to register as Foreign Agents. One individual identified as mr. Browders complaint is glen simpson, founder of fusion gps. Since march 2017 ive been asking about the russians who were working with fusion gps to smear mr. Browder and undermine the magnitsky act. Mr. Simpsons company, fusion gps, is the same firm that oversaw the creation of the unverified trump dossier. Around the same time, fusion also helped orchestrate a campaign to repeal the magnitsky act for the benefit of russian governments. There are public reports that the fbi used the dossier to kickstart its russian investigation. Did the fbi know that fusion pitched propaganda for the russians even as it pushed the dossier . What would they say about its reliability if the dossier was presented to any court should this fact have been disclosed . Two other individuals identified in mr. Browders complaint have been in the news a lot lately, the first is a russian lawyer who represents prevesan holdings, her name natalia veselnitskaya, as you know, well just refer to her as russian agent x, y, z or something. [ laughter ] [ laughter ] prevesan is a Russian Company that received millions of dollars connected to crime for mr. Magnitskys uncovering. Another russian american lobbyist, the New York Times recently decried him as a master of the dark arts. These two were reportedly at a meeting with the trump family and made a pitch to get around the magnitsky act. Was it a clumsy baitandswitch effort in their unregistered Propaganda Campaign . Hopefully well get answers from mr. Trump and mr. Manafort on that point we will pursue details about the creation and circulation of the dossier that started this whole controversy knowing exactly who was acting on behalf of the russian government is vital to get to the bottom of russian influence in our democratic system, that is why fara must be enforced consistently and even handedly. In other words, it wont be taken seriously. I look forward to discussing with the witnesses additional steps to better enforce fara and now its my pleasure to turn the table over to my Ranking Member. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Thank you for bringing everybody up to date on our discussion on the witnesses that were on the schedule here but are not at the present time. I think thats very helpful, so thank you. Sure. Ladies and gentlemen, the Foreign Agents registration act or what our chairman correctly said is called fara is really an important issue, particularly at a time when we face unprecedented interference in our democratic processes by a certain country, namely russia. Fara was enacted in 1938, it was enacted to ensure the public was aware of efforts by the German Government and the nazi party to use a network of United States citizens and firms to sway Public Opinion and United States policy in germanys favor. The law requires any individual working on behalf of a Foreign Government or foreign interests to register with the department of justice. It doesnt prohibit lobbying or other Political Activities but it require disclosure when those activities are directed by foreign interests. Long overlooked, fara has received renewed attention in the past several months because of the high profile cases involving former National Security adviser Michael Flynn who registered retroactively for work that he had done for the turkish government at the same time he was advising the Trump Campaign. Former Campaign ManagerPaul Manafort also registered in 2017 for nearly 17 million for lobbying work on behalf of the prorussian party of regions in ukraine between 2012 and 2014. Unfortunately, late registrations under fara are not a new problem nor are they limited to these two examples. In september of 2016, the Justice Department ig reported that 62 of the registrations that it had reviewed had been filed late. 50 were incomplete. Ill let you draw your conclusions from that. My conclusion is that our authorities dont take the law seriously and we need to change that. There appears to be no meaningful penalty for late or incomplete filings and over the past 50 years the Justice Department has prosecuted only seven fara cases. Instead, where violations are discovered, the department encourages compliance, creating a system where there are no consequences for failing to follow the law so i look forward to hearing from our Witnesses Today about whether and if what changes should be made and whether the current law is adequate so once again i thank you for solving our problems with the other witnesses and i look forward to the testimony. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Well, we sides your thanking me, youve been very cooperative and appreciate it very much. Thank you. Im going to introduce the witnesses and then ask you to stand and be sworn. Adam hickey is Deputy Attorney general for National Security division, doj. He manages the National Security divisions efforts to combat National Security threats from 2013 to 2015 mr. Hickey was the acting deputy chief of cyber for the counterintelligence and export control section of the National Security division. Mr. Hickey was also a federal prosecutor. Thank you for being here. Mr. Priestap is an assistant director for the Counterintelligence Division at the fbi. He previously served as Deputy Assistant director of Intelligence Operations Branch in the directorate of intelligence at fbi headquarters. He has worked at the fbi since 1998. Thank you for being here. Michael horowitz has been a frequent witness before our committee, is an Inspector General for the Justice Department. He was confirmed april, 2012, and oversees a nationwide work force of more than 400 employees. Immediately preceding this post he was in private practice and also previously worked for the Justice Departments criminal division. This mission is to promote economy and efficiency and deter waste fraud and abuse in the department of justice. We thank you for being here and would you stand now at this point so i can ask you to do your do you affirm the testimony youre about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god . They all affirm mr. Hickey would you start out and well go to mr. Priestap and then to mr. Horowitz and then well have fiveminute rounds for questioning. Good morning chairman grassley. Ranking member feinstein and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for providing me the opportunity to testify on behalf of the department of justice concerning the Foreign Agents registration act. The department appreciates the committees interest in fara. I know the committee already has my written testimony so i wont repeat it here. Ill cover a few key points about the law and its background how we enforce and administer it and how theyve responded to last years report by the Justice Departments Inspector General. Fara is a disclosure statute that requires persons in the United States who engage in specified activities as agents of foreign principals to register with the department. The acts purpose is to ensure the American Public and our lawmakers know the source of information that is provided at the behest of a foreign principal where that information may be intended to influence u. S. Public opinion, policy or laws. The statute finds you must register with a Foreign Agent. It exempts certain types of Foreign Agents from the Registration Requirements and among other things it requires agents to preserve their books and records and make them available for inspection. Because fara is designed to encourage transparency in public speech and Political Activities, not to discourage that speech and activities, it differs somewhat from other provisions of the criminal code such as those that punish espionage and other clandestine conduct. Instead of prosecution, the primary means of achieving that transparency is by encouraging voluntary disclosure in compliance with the act. The department will, of course, approve criminal prosecutions under fara if theres sufficient admissible evidence of a willful violation of the statute. But the high burden in proving willfulness and exemptions available under the statute make criminal violations for fara difficult. Its handled by dojs National Security divisions fara unit. A regular part of the fara units work is attempts to identify people who may be subject to fara but not registered. If credible information suggests that the individual should register under, the fara unit will send an individual of the letter advising them of the registration. If the individual does not respond or the response seems incomplete, we will follow up. In some cases we may decide a criminal investigation is appropriate and involve the fbi. Often the recipients of those letters of inquiry will register. Fara unit staff carefully review registration filings for deficiencies, seek amendments and conduct inspections to ensure continued compliance. Fara unit staff also provide advisory opinions regarding the application and requirements of the act and other tasks that ive described in more detail. I will now respond to the 2016 report of the Inspector General. The report made 14 recommendations, nsd agreed with all of them, has implemented most of them and is working to implement the few that remain. As a result, in february, 2017, the oig informed nsd that six of the recommendations were closed. Nsd plans to file its next Progress Report in august at which time we anticipate the oig will be in a position to close nearly all of their remaining recommendations. I want to thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to discuss these issues and im happy to answer any questions you may have. Mr. Priestap . Chairman grassley, Ranking Member feinstein and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. My statement for the record has been submitted so rather than restating it, id like to explain why the issue before us is so important. The Foreign Agents registration act, or fara, is critical because we need all available tools to combat todays counterintelligence threat. Unbeknownst to many americans, the threat posed by our foreign adversaries is growing, both in volume and complexity our country is under Relentless Assault by hostile state actors and their proxies and adversarial nations arent just using their Intelligence Services to conduct these assaults, they are using a wholeofgovernment approach, by their goals on economic, technological, military, diplomatic and intelligence fronts. They use people from across their governments and from all walks of life in pursuit of their desire to gain strategic advantage over the United States in whatever ways they can. The lack of understanding of the scope and scale of the counterintelligence threat combined with the fact the threat is the a gradual one leads tom people to underestimate it but make no mistake. Our economy, our National Security and our way of life are being actively threatened by state actors and their proxies today and everyday. Its just one example of this, a number of our adversaries engage in activities designed to influence u. S. Public opinion, policy, and laws by requiring these activities to be conducting in an overt manner, by requiring Foreign Agents to disclose their relationship with foreign principals the American Public in the u. S. Government can better evaluate the information these agents provide. However, when Foreign Agents dont disclose their relationship with their foreign principals, we are more susceptible to being unduly influenced. This is why Foreign Agents who willfully fail to disclose their relationship with foreigners may be pursuant to criminal charge. We live in an age in which we are bombarded with information so its more important than ever that we understand its source, otherwise we cant fully understand and evaluate it. Fara matters because it requires Foreign Agents to publicly disclose for whom they speak. Fara also matters because in the counterintelligence realm the United States needs every weapon in its arsenal. While the fbi is the ledo midwest i can lead domestic counterintelligence agency, the only way to effectively combat wholeofgovernment responses. The fbi is committed to working with the department of justice to enforce farah and any other statute that could be used against our adversaries. The fbi is equally committed to working with other u. S. Government components, the private sector and foreign partners to do the same. In closing, thank you very much for holding this hearing. As doing so raises awareness of the counterintelligence threat and one of the tools that can be used to fight it. Thank you, now mr. Horowitz. Thank you mr. Chairman, Ranking Member feinstein, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify at todays hearing. The Foreign Agents registration act is an important statute that Congress Passed to ensure that the people of the United States are informed of attempts by foreign principals to influence u. S. Public opinion, policy, and laws. In september, 2016, my Office Issued an audit report on the departments efforts to enforce fara and its administration and monitoring of fara registrations. We found that the number of fara registrations has declined significantly over the last two decades and that criminal prosecutions and Civil Enforcement actions are rare. Additionally, we determined that over half of the initial fara registrations we reviewed were untimely and 50 of registrants filed at least one recurring sixmonth supplemental registration late. In light of the information we reviewed and evaluated, we identified four general areas of concern. First, the department lacked a comprehensive enforcement strategy for fara and we heard about significant disagreements between the National Security division, the fbi about how such investigations were being handled and reviewed. Second, the National Security division was having difficulty gathering the necessary information so that it could identify when Foreign Agents failed to register as required under fara. Third, the National Security division needed to improve its monitoring and oversight of r registrants, including ensuring registrants were complying with applicable Filing Requirements and doing so in a timely manner. And fourth the department had not made an assessment of the reason for the sharp decline in fara registrations over the past two decades, including the impact of the lobbying disclosure act exemption and whether any legislative changes should be sought. As a result of our findings, we made 14 recommendations to the department and they agreed with all of them. Five of our recommendations related to enforcement efforts. Since our report was released, nsd has taken significant actions for the oig to close, the three regulations related to updating training for investigators and prosecutors, providing more timely communication with fbi agents and federal prosecutors on the nsd decisionmaking process and working with the fbi regarding classification codes for fara and section 951 cases. Our recommendations that the nsd develop a comprehensive enforcement strategy and better track fara cases remain open, although were told by nsd it is working to address those two recommendations. Seven of our 14 recommendations related to improving nsds oversight of its Foreign Agent registrations. Two recommendations have since been closed because the nsd has begun posting anonymized advisory opinions on its fara website and because its expanded its sources of information that it collects so that it can better gather information on possible foreign registrants. The other five recommendations remain open with notices to registrants that have not filed documents, the tracking of file closures, resolution of inspection reports, filing fees and the use of its email system, efile system to address timeliness. Weve been told by nsd it is working on that as well. Finally, we made two recommendations to possible legislative changes we heard about. The first, which is now closed, related to the statutory 48hour time limit for filing materials with the department which our report found was not being met, to address this recommendation, nsd told us that it is seeking to amend the statute to lengthen the time period for agents to file information with the department. Our other recommendation that remains open was for the department to conduct a formal assessment of the impact of the foreign disclosure lobbying act on fara enforcement and whether changes should be sought legislatively. Weve been told by nsd that it is continuing its assessment of that issue. As to each of these eight remaining open recommendations, my office will continue to monitor the departments progress to ensure that they are fully implemented because we believe they will further one of the primary goals congress had in passing fara, namely, Greater Transparency for the public about efforts by foreign principals to influence Public Opinion and public policy. This concludes my prepared statement. I would be happy to answer any questions the committee may have. I think all the members know that the twohour rule has been imposed so that means weve got to get through this panel and the next panel in an hour and a half. So anything that anybody can do to shorten their questioning period would be helpful, because one of our witnesses came from out the country to testify. Mr. Chairman, may i ask, do we know whos invoked the twohour rule . I find it hard to believe any United States senator would block our ability to inquire into this important subject. Do we happen to know . I do not know. I hope some members of the press find out and ask why they would want to block this important hearing. Im well have fiveminute rounds. Ill try to cut mine short if i can to get the question in. According to the Inspector General, im going to mr. Hickey, main justice and the fbi are not adequately communicating with each other and have struggled to figure out what qualifies as a proper fara charge. Since 1966, the Justice Department has only brought seven criminal fara cases in which only one resulted in conviction and two pled guilty. So why would doj expect people to register and be transparent when they arent really punished for failing to register . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Let me begin by saying how appreciative i am both of this hearing and the members for holding it and also to the Inspector General for his report. I took my current position about a year ago, and that is the first time i became responsible for the fara unit. And its very helpful when you take on a new position to have a road map of someone that someone has put together that issues spots where you need to focus problems that need to be addressed. And so let me express my gratitude publicly for the Inspector General for that report. As the igs report lays out, there may be an element of terminology misunderstanding in some parts of the bureau in the Justice Department which we are trying to rectify which is i think many agents and prosecutors refer to a different provision of the criminal code, namely section 951 of title 18 which also has the words agent and Foreign Government in its title, as fara instead of referring to the act were discussing today. I dont think at least sitting here today based on the work we have done over the last year there is a misunderstanding. Weve worked hard to train prosecutors and agents in the field what fara looks like, what a fara violation looks like and to bring cases to us and in recent memory im aware of only a single case in which a u. S. Attorneys office has proposed a criminal charge that nsd has not approved by that case was prosecuted around different statute and a conviction obtained. So i think we have made great progress towards educating our field on the importance of these cases and the need to bring them. Thank you. Now to mr. Horowitz. Have the Justice Department and the fbi adequately addressed how fara fits into the departments overall National Security efforts . If so, explain and if not, please explain what else must be done. Well, we have not closed our recommendation regarding the need for comprehensive strategy. Were looking forward to the august update that we are due from nsd about that and it our review highlighted this disconnect and the lack of a comprehensive strategy, both based on our discussions with assistant u. S. Attorneys, fbi agents handling these cases as well as the National Security division folks because not only were there disagreements about the number of cases and what classification they fell in and what which were fara cases and which were not, but the absence of prosecutions and the absence of records to see what had happened with reviews that we heard complaints about. Mr. Hickey, leading into your next two questions, im going to ask you, the department recently required the Podesta Group and mercury llc to register for engaging in Public Relations campaigns to the benefit of Foreign Governments. Public reports show a foreigncontrolled company hired fusion gps and glen simpson to do propaganda work in an effort to reveal the magnitsky act. They reportedly dug up dirt about mr. Browder and his company. This covert negative Publicity Campaign would principally benefit the russian government. So without reference to that particular case, if a Company Engages in a Publicity Campaign on behalf of a Foreign Government to influence u. S. Law, does that generally create an obligation to register under fara . Ill get the hang of it. Thank you, senator, for the question and thank you for acknowledging my inability to comment on particular investigations or potential investigations today. Let me describe our practice. Where we see credible investigation to believe someone is acting as an agent of a foreign principal, we face a choice at that moment. In most cases we dont have indications of willfulness, meaning we dont have indications that the individual is deliberately choosing not to register but aware of their on obligation and in that case we would send a letter of inquiry and solace sit more information. However, if we had indications that the agent was acting willfully, it may be more appropriate to go directly to a criminal investigation. I think in your question, sir, you used the terms on behalf of. I want to be precise, the statute applies to agents, so those working at the direction or control of a foreign principal. One of the challenges we sometimes face is that independent groups may have interests that overlap with or coincide with Foreign Governments and that can be a challenge to other determination that theyre acting at the direction or control of the foreign principal. Senator feinstein . Thanks very much, mr. Chairman. Mr. Horowitz, youve always been a straight shooter and thats very much appreciated. Ive been reading your remarks bottom of page three and top of page four where you have a number of recommendations. Yes. And you begin by saying nsd officials have difficulty procuring information from people that may be agents and therefore theyre but suing Civil Authority from congress to help enhance the nsds ability to assess the need for potential agents to register and you go on and talk about including controls and oversight and you also speak about ensuring the statutory 48hour time limit for agent filing of informational materials. I think its pretty clear that we need some legislation in this area. Would you be prepared to work with us on a bipartisan basis to strengthen this . Absolutely and i think my folks who did the audit have a fair amount of understanding about where some of the fault lines are here. Could you just sort of prioritize if you were us where you would go first, second and third . I think first and foremost is what you and the chairman have identified which is putting teeth into the statute and making sure that the fbi, the National Security divisions believe they have the tools to ensure that people voluntarily comply. It shouldnt be the case that youre found out through google searches or otherwise, told to register and then you register. There are no consequences to registering, why not wait for the knock on the door rather than come up voluntarily and do it . So i think thats first and foremost. Second, obviously, to do that prosecutors and agents need to get the information to see who isnt voluntarily complying and thats where the civil investigative demand comes in and third its the question that has been raised and we talk about in our audit about the impact of the lobbying disclosure act. What we heard over and over again was the exemption in fara for folks who are complying with the lobbying disclosure act has impacted and is a major reason why theres been a substantial drop over the last two decades in the number of filings. The problem we had when we went in to see if that was true is that the department wasnt tracking information and didnt know, in fact, if that was true, it was a supposition but there werent records to show it so i would suggest those are the three areas where we should first and foremost focus. Just to comment, i dont know a time when the United States feels more invaded. And by this i mean, 21 States Election systems were pierce in this last election we believe by russia and thats a a pretty sovereign interference and d in this last election we believe by russia and thats a a pretty sovereign interference an in this last election we believe by russia and thats a a pretty sovereign interference and in this last election we believe by russia and thats a a pretty sovereign interference and pret sovereign interference and interference with our sovereignty. So there are two of us here that serve on the Intelligence Committee so we know some of these things and it seems to me that the time has really come to tighten this act up to know who is in the country, to see that they formally apply, to see if they violate its prosecuted and that it has become a priority for us. Would you agree with that . Absolutely. Gentlemen, do you have a comment to make on what i just said . Senator, thank you for ask ing what other tools we might require. Im aware of at least two proposals, one that may have been introduced for legislative changes and we are working hard to coordinate views across the administration on those propose sam proposals and i, too, in the Department Look forward to working with congress on this important question. Can you give us the name of the legislation so we can find it . I know senator shaheen has introduced one bill. There is another bill in the house. And to be honest, im not sure if it has been introduced publicly so i dont want to exceed my writ and ive heard talk of other potential bills but i know of two were working on right now. Thank you. And well talk with mr. Horowitz and you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator hatch . Welcome to the committee, were happy to have all of you here. I come with one simple message, lets be fair. Lets judge boast sides of the political divide, both parties by the same standards. And there are few things i take more seriously than the allegations of foreign interference in the 2016 election. Actually, for foreign influence actually, foreign influence would be an egregious violation of our sovereignty, even the plausible allegation of it can, if left unaddressed, seriously undermine Public Confidence in our institutions. Weve heard pretty serious accusations of foreign influence over the Trump Campaign, whether here in the senate more to the media and, frankly many of th, these allegations have been truly outlandish. Most have been politically motivated and all have been taking their toll. Even the most outrageous accusation repeated often enough will slowly acquire a false ring of truth, especially in todays media environment. And so to the extent that there is anything to these allegations, republicans are stepping up. There are investigations under way by both the house and the senate Intelligence Committees before the appointment of special counsel by the department of justice, the House Oversight committee was investigates and now the Senate Judiciary committee is investigating. All are controlled by republicans, so i dont want to hear anyone complain we arent standing up and doing what is necessary here to get to the bottom of these things. As to todays hearing, a critical part of the investigation in this committee will be the application of the Foreign Agents registration act. Its a critical part of the equation. I want to commend chairman grassley and the Ranking Member as well for holding this hearing and leading the way on this, but i also want everyone in the media, the democrats, our constituents and the republicans to hear me and to hear me clearly. While these allegations may be too serious to ignore, they are also too serious to be left incomplete and too serious to be used for partisan ends. If were going to get to the bottom of this, we need to investigate the whole story. That means looking at more than just foreign influence over the Trump Campaign. It includes looking at serious allegations of foreign influence over the Clinton Campaign and the Democratic National committee as well. After all, if this National Controversy is going to be brought to a legitimate conclusion, we have to treat it as more than just fodder for partisan gamesmanship and more than a headlinegrabbing attack on the president. We need to explore both sides of the story. According to the Committee Staff report and as numerous reports in the media have revealed, there are serious questions about whether foreign actors wanted to hurt, not help, the Trump Campaign. And there are serious questions about whether foreign actors wanted to help, not hurt the Clinton Campaign. Many suspect that foreign actors wanted to help Neither Campaign but they wanted to hurt our electoral process as a whole by sowing chaos and confusion. And so there are questions that this committee needs answered. Im pleased that the Trump Campaign individuals have agreed to be interviewed, but it doesnt end with them. Fusion gps, for example, the Opposition Research firm, has a lot of questions to answer. The Democratic National committee has questions to answer and the Clinton Campaign has questions to answer. So in conclusion, we have heard democrats level grave, often outlandish accusations at the Trump Administration and family. Weve seen the media pursue it relentlessly. But weve heard far less about the rest of the story. Mr. Chairman, i applaud you and the Ranking Member for scheduling this hearing and i implore my democratic colleagues in the media to join the Judiciary Committee to getting to the bottom of this. We must ensure that these Investigations Center with an opportunity protect our institutions not merely as an excuse to attack our political opponents. Our constituents deserve better than theyve gotten and we can start by fixing this today and doing what ought to be done in this particular area. So i want to thank you three gentlemen for appearing with us as well and just say i hope we can be fair in these matters and treat the Trump Administration as fairly as we want our personal interests to be treated. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator hatch, i appreciate your remarks. Senate whitehouse . Gentlemen, welcome, i will try to move through my material quickly to obey the chairmans injunction that we move along. First, do any of you have any doubt whatsoever that russia interfered in our 2016 president ial election . None . Okay. Just to be clear. Well, let me just say, i only know what ive read in the newspaper. We are not involved i understand that. Because youre the ig. Yes. So the Foreign Agent registration act, you will all agree, i hope, has as its purpose to identify Foreign Agents seeking to influence u. S. Government policies, correct . Very important, senator. Can Foreign Agents seeking to obscure their identities . I can certainly conceive of agents acting here for a foreign principal can use other measures to hide the connection to the principal. And the use of nontransparent forms, does that help or hinder your ability to investigate foreign influence in u. S. Government policies . It would be part of the challenge i referred to earlier, senator, of the difficulty in proving direction or control to the ultimate principal. So Greater Transparency as to who is behind a Shell Corporation would be an advantage to Law Enforcement . I think so, senator. Yes. Similarly, can they use political contributions through identity laundering devices like donors trust to obscure who is actually making the political contribution . Senator, im not so much an expert in Campaign Finance or contributions. What youve said sounds right to me but i dont want to mislead you that i have particular if your purpose is to identify a foreign influence being brought to bear on our government and election money is pouring in and you dont know who is actually behind it, that creates an avenue for foreign influence to influence our government, correct . That sounds right to me, senator. Can business relationships be used and, indeed, is it not well send it that russia tries to use business relationships to facilitate or as cover for foreign influence operation . Ill defer to the fbi to speak to russia specifically. I know that one of the challenges, senator, that we face is that theres often an economic or commercial cast to the activity here. But, in fact, the Foreign Government may be the principal beneficiary or the activity may not be private or nonpolitical in nature and thus, i registration. And its established through both the kremlin handbook report by the sif and the Kremlin Trojan horses by Atlantic Council that russia actually uses business relationship to corrupt and to influence people in other tries where theyre seeking influence, correct . Mr. Prestep youre familiar with that . Im familiar with both reports and in my experience that is true. So in an investigation into a Foreign Agents effort to influence u. S. Policy, being able to understand business relationships could be vital to understanding the influence scheme, correct . Absolutely. And in that effort, are an individuals tax returns potentially very significant, indeed often obvious investigative material . A variety of financial records pertaining to any of the individuals or entities involves. Including tax returns. Including tax returns which are so widely pursued in criminal investigation theres actually a whole section on the u. S. Attorneys manual devoted to the simple process for investigators getting access to tax returns, correct . Yes. Im not an expert on tax returns, but they can be of investigative value. Thank you very much. My time has expired. Senator cornyn and then senator the continuation of this hearing beyond two hours. Well reconsider and withdraw that objection because what were doing here is simply too important to the security of our country. Mr. Priestap, for making what i think is an important point. We tend to focus on the trees instead of the forest and here of course the concern immediate concern is about russian involvement in our elections but you have made the point i believe that our international adversaries will use a range of activities, both overt and covert to undermine us in a variety of ways and of course now were talking about the Foreign Agents registration act which would be more of an overt means of doing so. But i fear that violations are happening around this town all the time. Meaning Foreign Governments are attempting to exert undisclosed influence over u. S. Policy and we dont know about it. I experienced this recently in my work on the justice against sponsors of terrorism act which is a law that gave americans tools to fight terrorism and bring justice to victims that had the overwhelming support of congress, notwithstanding the veto of president obama. Opponents of the bill warned that any number of consequences would occur with our relationship to saudi arabia which was not named in the bill, but of course none of those have resulted. But even though they were wrong a debate was a real one and the kind that ought to accompany any bill. Along with healthy debate the kingdom of saudi arabia reportedly undertook a cloaked campaign to gut the legislation. And involved ghost written letters an ghost written legislation involved threats to american companies. It involved as of october 2016 saudi arabia paying american lobbyists and Public Relations firms to undermine our or overturn the legislation. They paid them 1. 3 million each month to fight against the right of american victims of terrorism to sue Terror Financing nations. But the worst part of this campaign was the use of veterans to persuade members of Congress According to press reports agents of the saudi government recruited American Veterans, flew them to washington, wined them and dined them and then put them up in fancy hotels and provided them with false information to provide to members of congress. They didnt tell these american heroes that who was sponsoring them and who this were serving. Not only did the agents apparently violate fara, but they put the American Veterans at legal risk. The organizers concealed the sponsorship of the trip and a number of the firms did not file under fara until outraged veterans and press reports revealed their those activities. This kind of conduct should gall every member of the senate and it demonstrates that foreign nations will pay large sums of money and go to great extent to influence our laws and policies of the United States government. Unfortunately they can do so nearly unchecked and with little threat of punishment and that must change. Gentlemen, id like to ask you when the lobbying disclosure act was enacted in 1995 there was a corresponding drop in Foreign Agents registration act. Current law allows an individual who represents a foreign individual or commercial entity, but not a Foreign Government or Political Party to register under this lobbying disclosure act instead of the Foreign Agent registration act. Of course there are instances where companies are either formally or informally controlled by Foreign Governments. We can think of a number of them. And theres an open question of the level of government control of any company in china for example. Which is all subservient to the communist party and the government of china so i would ask you to comment, should the lobbying disclosure act be amended so that all foreign commercial entities would likewise file under the Foreign Agent registration act and how do we handle the fact that many foreign nations use state owned or state affiliated enterprises to conduct their Foreign Policy . Should we think about fara in that light as well . In your opinion, how large is the companies or the enablers searching to find clients interested in finding fara . I know there are a number of questions but id be interested in your brief comments given the considerations of time. Senator, ill be susquehanus as possible. Repealing the lda is what i referred to earlier i cant take a position on it today but i hope have coordinated views on the question later. I know two things from managing the fara units. One, as you pointed out the number of fara registrations dropped precipitously shortly after lda was passed. Its exemption was passed and at the time the department expressed the view that that might happen. That the exemption should work a different way. That you maybe would be except from the lda but not the fara. One of the challenges we face is that the Companies May not be controlled or at least not on paper by the government. They may in fact be a well connected corporate enterprise. Not under the direction or control of the Foreign Government but whose interests overlap and who under our regs are doing work the principal beneficiary for whom is the Foreign Government. Those folks are still obligated to register so we search the lda database and try to find those potential registrants and ferret out whether the principal beneficiaries is really the government or the Political Party but its a challenge for us, sir. Senator klobuchar . Thank you very much for this hearing and while its disappointing that some of our witnesses arent here today, it is important to move forward in a bipartisan way. And im going to focus on the issues at hand here. Mr. Hickey, i am cosponsor of bipartisan legislation, the Foreign Agents registration modernization and enforcement ability to give the authority needed to help ensure that they comply with the law. Under the bill the Justice Department could make suspected fara violators turn over relevant documents before initiating a civil or criminal proceeding. And i understand that obtaining this authority has been a priority for the Justice Departments National Security division. The you explain why this type of authority would be so helpful to prosecutors . Thank you, senator. As i mentioned earlier im not in a position to call for any legislative change today. I dont have authorization to do that but i think as you noted in twice in the past, 1991 and 1998 the federal government has proposed cid authority for exactly that purpose. And so while i wont advocate one way or the other today ill simply point out that authority would create a middle ground between resorting to a criminal subpoena which you wouldnt necessarily have the basis to do or be in the right position to do and the voluntary letter of inquiry we rely on now. Thank you. Then a question, more detailed question on russian tv. We know our intelligence agencies have found that russia tried to interfere in our election in january the office of the director of National Intelligence released a report documenting some of the ways they tried to do this. Including through news outlets and they say that russia rt america was explicitly set up to avoid the national act. Can one of you, can you elaborate on why rt is not currently registered under fara . Senator, eprobably shouldnt i probably shouldnt comment on any individuals or entities but it strikes me that when Congress Passed fara or amended it recently, maybe in the 60s this is when this changed or the 40s it deliberately carved out u. S. Owned media organizations. It was very precise about that. What that tells me as a prosecutor is that that intended to capture potentially not u. S. Owned. Were not. Im familiar with the reporting you have referred to and im familiar with that provision of the statute. It would be good if we could pursue that line if the statute says that, they have carved out u. S. Owned from foreign owned. It could be not only just russia but another government as well. Do you think this is just to the panel who ever wants to take this one, do you think that the fara requirements in current law adequately reflect recent technological advances or would clarifying the social Media Standards and updating the 48 hour rule for facebook and twitter help the fara unit do its work more effectively . I know you cant comment on exact legislation, but are there tools out there that could be helpful to you . Thank you, senator. I think the internet does present a challenge for us because the statute is limited to individuals acting within the United States. I know as early as 1940 the attorney general then attorney general issued an opinion if you mail materials into the United States even if youre not here, youre acting within the United States. So i see the challenge with the internet is both a technical one but also a question of jurisdiction. Even if youre quote unquote subject to fara because youre acting to here, how will we reach the agent physically located in the other country . I see that as a significant challenge. Do you want to add anything, mr. Priestap, to any of the questions . No, i think mr. Hickey is exactly right. That is the true challenge and im not sure how you legislate late that. Okay. Anything . No. I think the internet presents some new challenges and thinking that has to occur on the 48 hour rule and other requirements. It seems like we need to update this law in light of everything we have seen, given that another election is around the corner and everyone in america wants to have their vote count and that means not having influence from other entities. So i want to thank you very much. Thank you. Senator lindsey graham. Thank you. I would like to add any compliments to you and the Ranking Member for conducting a very organized way forward in terms of dealing with the threats we face as a nation and changing our laws consistent with those threats. I am too disappointed that we have a two hour rule as something on important two hearings have been cancelled. We cant agree on health care but this is important. Mr. Browder has a lot to say. Heres the deal. Aipac, are you familiar with aipac . American israeli Political Action committee. I have heard of it, sir, yes. They come up here in droves, lobbying congress to do things in their view good for the u. S. israel relationship. I know they have a lot of contacts in israel. Should somebody like that be a Foreign Agent . Sir, its probably not appropriate for me to comment on a particular entity, but i think you have hit on something very important. It may be against the democratic party, next time its iran or north korea. It goes on and on. What happens or what power do we have if somebody in the United States coordinates with them, some platform or website begins to coordinate with content that originates outside the country being disseminated in a political fashion within the country. If somebody coordinates with them or becomes an ally what status would they have . Senator, i have to look at the specifics of the case. Fara looks at what under the direction or the control or the agent of the principal in this circumstance, the generated content is coming outside the country, its being delivered in the country for a political purpose and any american or organization within the country that colludes with them for lack of a better word, would they should we have laws that deal with that . Under fara i think one question you have to ask the senators is whether that person here is acting as the agent or under the direction or control of those foreign individuals. If they are, should they thats one of the principal pillars if youre an agent acting under the direction or the control our laws a good enough answer to the question or should we change the laws dealing with the reality of the future . I dont feel prepared to answer that question today, im sorry. Senator franken and then senator kennedy. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, gentlemen for testifying. In january, the director of National Intelligence released a classified report detailing interference in last years election. The report states unequivocally quote, russian president Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the u. S. President ial election. Mr. Hickey and mr. Priestap, youre here today representing the Justice Departments National Security division and the fbis Counterintelligence Division. Have you read the declassified intelligence assessment of the russian operation . I have, senator. Thank you. I have as well. Good. Have either of you read the classified version of the report . I have. Okay. Thank you. Im not sure, sir. Okay. Do you have any reason to doubt the intelligence communitys assessment that the russians interfered in last years election . No, sir. No, sir. Well, for some reason, President Trump remains unwilling to accept the fact that russia interfered in our election. We saw this during the campaign when he dismissed reports of russian meddling by suggesting that the hacking could have been carried out by quote somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds. But now six months into his presidency, we continue to see that reluctance to acknowledge the truth. Just last week, the newly minted White House Communications director Anthony Scaramucci appeared on cnn and he said this quote, somebody said to me yesterday i wont tell you who that if the russians actually hacked this situation and spilled out those emails you would have never seen it. You wouldnt have any evidence of them, meaning that theyre super confident in their deception skills and hacking. The host of the show asked just who that somebody was and mr. Scaramucci asked admitted that it was President Trump. Who explained that if the russians had quote hacked a situation that the United States would have not have evidence of that hacking because of the russian superior intelligence capabilities. Do either of you know where President Trump got that idea . No, sir. No, sir. Well, ill tell you, President Trump believes that to be true because Vladimir Putin told him so. The New York Times later confirmed that putin was the source of that information. The times came from the meeting to tell his aides that the russian president had offered that, moscows cyber operators are so good at Covert Network operations that if they had dipped into the dnc systems they would not have been caught, unquote. Let that sink in for a moment. The president of the United States is taking the word of Vladimir Putin over that of our nations intelligence agencies, which demonstrates a stunning lack of confidence in the men and women who put their lives on the line to keep us safe. And the president of the United States then goes on to repeat that russian lie to the American Press and to mr. Scaramucci effectively spreading russias misinformation for them. Mr. Priestap, you have experience in counterintelligence. When then fbi director comey appeared before the house Intelligence Committee in march he described the russian operation as unusually loud. Quote, its almost as if they didnt care that we knew. Their loudness in a way would be counting on us to amplify it by telling the American People what we say and freaking people out about how the russians might be undermining our elections successfully, unquote. Do you agree with former director comeys assessment was the russian operation unusually loud . Yes. Mr. Hickey, you managed the National Security divisions efforts to fight cyber attacks. Do you agree with director comeys assessment former director comeys assessment . In my position as a lawyer i would defer to director comey and the fbi on that. So it seems fair to say that not only did russia interfere in last years election but that russia wasnt trying to fly under the radar, contrary to what putin told President Trump and that it was russia wanted americans to find out about the efforts, that our knowledge about their operation and the unease that it continues to cause to cause us was central to undermining american state and democracy. Thank you for your indulgence. Senator kennedy. Chairman, are we going to get to mr. Browder today . We will well stop here at 11 30 as the rule requires and then mr. Browder will be here at 9 00. Well recess until 9 00 tomorrow. Thats because of the two hour rule . Yes. Id like to join senator graham and senator cornyn. I would like to know who invoked the two hour rule. Certainly their right but i think they know it to this committee and to these witnesses some of whom who travelled a Long Distance to explain their reasoning. Yeah. He came from overseas to be here. Has to stay now an extra day. Hes willing to stay, and i dont know why the two hour rule was invoked but if it was invoked so we couldnt talk to mr. Browder its it can happen tomorrow at 9 00. So we can overcome if thats the rationale. Well, if mr. Browder is here, i apologize for that. I think hes in the ante room if you want to apologize. Mr. Hickey, according to media reports mr. Sidney blumenthal, lobbied former secretary clinton to show support to show support to the Prime Minister of canada and he allegedly passed along personal letters to secretary clinton from the leader of the Opposition Party and transmitted a memo allegedly to her from an acquaintance by the name of mr. John cornbloom. The letter urged her to support the same Opposition Party in the georgia elections. According to media reports i guess you could check as a matter of fact, either mr. Blumenthal or mr. Cornbloom have not registered under fara and i want to know why doj has not required them to register. Thank you. Consistent with long Standing Department of Justice Policy i cant confirm or deny or comment on particular individuals or entities or investigations or potential investigations. Okay. Ever heard of a group called fusion gps . I have, sir. Mr. I think the cofounder is mr. Glenn simpson. I have seen that in media reports, sir. Has he registered under the statute, fara . I have not searched or his name, so sitting here today i dont know for sure. I think the answer is no. But again im not sure. Has anybody at the department of justice searched for his name . I dont know that, sir. Is somebody looking into that . I cant comment on that, sir. General horowitz, why i think you testified that two decades ago enforcement of fara became less of a priority. Why was that . Well, we saw about two decades ago a significant dropoff in the number of filings and one event was the 1995 lobbying disclosure act, but proceeding that by two years was the imposition of fees for filing. If you actually look at our report and the chart we have done, and the graphic that we have included in the report it shows the cliff starts to occur in 1993 after fees were imposed. And one of the challenges we had when we went into do our audit was trying to determine what was the impact of the lobbying disclosure act and the problem we had was there really had never been an assessment done by the department and the folks administering the program to determine if that was in fact the cause as opposed what do you think, you have studied this. What do you think it was . It looks to be a combination of both potentially. As well as we talked about earlier the need to have a strong enforcement policy and a mechanism to ensure that folks understand there are real consequences to failing to register and i think one of the concerns our team had and i had in looking at this is in 50 years doing seven criminal cases, five of which result in convictions and three of which involve fara charges over 50year periods doesnt necessarily send the message out there that theres real heat behind this. I want you to think about this too. What you allow is going to continue. Now, i understand that the Justice Department cant talk about investigations and i respect that. I think its a good rule. But im general general, i hope youll continue to monitor this. Because its clear that theres been a failing and i dont know what metric we have to understand whether its fixed. Well do that. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator hirono, if you use your five minutes and i got to inform senator cruz you might have only two or three minutes for you. Then under the two hour rule senator hirono. Thank you. Despite conducting significant lobbying on russian interests Donald Trumps former adviser flynn and manafort only filed after the activities were disclosed. Doesnt that undermine the purpose of fara . Good morning, senator. Unfortunately, i cant comment on particular cases. What i will say is we do our level best to identify conduct through whatever source we can and act on it by sending either a voluntary letter of inquiry. So regardless of whether you cant comment on the particulars im getting to the delay in registering under fara and im wondering whether a delay in registering at some point can amount to a willful violation of fara . I think thats a thats a good question, senator. The statute makes clear that if you register late that does not procollude a prosecution. Certainly the goal of the statute is to ensure that agents register immediately essentially upon becoming agents or principals. When ten days thats within ten days. Perhaps need to strengthen that part of the law because there needs to be a showing of willfulness, to show a violation of fara. Sub stantively at some point a delay in registration amounts to a delay of registration. The Trump Campaign insisted on a change to the National Republican platform making u. S. Policy on ukraine much more favorable to the russian government. At that time, Paul Manafort was the Trump Campaign chair and he had been paid 17. 1 million in unreported payments from the party of regent, the pro russia party in ukraine. He had extensive business dealings in the ukraines and with wealthile oy oligarchs yet never disclosed this work. Wasnt this work on behalf of the Foreign Government that fara is meant to disclose . Im sorry, i dont think i can answer that question. We have advised we had previously advised mr. Manafort we believed he had an obligation to register and hes registered. I think that answers my question. Would this raise any red flags for you or your investigator, mr. Priestap . Im sorry, i cant comment on that. You cant comment on lets take out the names. If somebody did this, wouldnt this raise red flags for you . Im sorry, i just dont want to comment on any individuals or entities or effect patterns associated with potential or current investigations. Would it be fair to say that this kind of fact pattern where theres nondisclosure, nonregistration that this is not necessarily unusual . So this happens, you you know, we have a concern in this committee that there be the enforcement of fara and whatever may arise out of the violation of fara, so regardless of whether you can comment or not, i would hope that the fbi and this kind of fact and circumstance would look into what is going on. Theres been some discussion about the what happened with the lda and the fact theres been such a decrease in registrations under fara as after lda. Im wondering whether that mr. Hickey, you said that the doj searches the lda databases for people who may not have appropriately registered so my question for mr. Priestap is does the fbi search the fara databases for potential violations of law . Not that i know of, maam. Why wouldnt you . We depend on the department of justice to in effect oversee this area. Its as mr. Hickey i believe mentioned previously this is a regulatory or a disclosure statute. It is not a criminal statute. And the department of justice is responsible the main mainly responsible for the administration of it. Well, its just that we understand that fara is merely a disclosure law and the fbi gets into criminal activity. Since fara requires a lot more disclosure than the lda one would think and hope that the fbi would pursue looking at the faraday that bases. So its an editorial comment. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Let me echo the concerns that a number of folks have raised that i think its unfortunate that the democratic angry resistance has extended to the level of obstructing nominees across the board and now shutting down Committee Hearings as this one will be shut down in two minutes. I think that is unfortunate. You have senators not willing to do the jobs they were elected to do. In the minute and a half we have, mr. Horowitz, your Office Conducted an extensive review of the National Security division. This included a review of the enforcement of fara or perhaps as more accurately described the nonenforcement of it. In your opinion, is nonenforcement a result of a conscious decision or merely a lack of coordination within the department of justice . Well, what we saw was a lack of coordination and that concerned us. And the fact that there were a handful of cases over a 50 year period raised concerns about what message that was sending to the community out there that should be registering voluntarily. If its a lack of coordination wheres the process breaking down . Well, we saw very different opinions among ausas and agents and the nsd over what it meant to handle these cases and i think as was just mentioned the National Security division as the attorneys responsible for the regulatory scheme really has to take the lead on coming up with an enforcement strategy, coordinating with the fbi to move forward to make sure that folks are registering voluntarily and if not voluntarily there are cases and investigations that result from that. Now, the fara registration unit focuses on voluntary compliance and yet there are u. S. Attorney offices bringing matters. What explains that . Well, theyre seeing the failures to file are looking at the cases and believe there are willful failures to file and that was again a point of dispute. With the oversight that was going on with the National Security division of those cases they need to at the nsd approve those cases in order for them to be brought and we heard from ausas concerns about how that was going on, reviews of evidence, concerns about jury appeal that the prosecutors thought they were in the best position po determine based on their districts and that was an area of concern for us that there would be that kind of dispute between prosecutors in the field and folks at main justice. Thank you. I think the committees time has now expired. The two hour rule goes into effect right now. Thank you for all participating and the hearing will be recessed tomorrow and well hear from mr. Start off with mr. Browder. 9 00 tomorrow if i didnt make it clear. Thursday, testimony from William Browder who knows the russian lawyer who met with donald trump jr. Before the 2016 president ial election. Hell speak in front of the Judicial Committee here on cspan 3. Later army chief of staff general milley speaks at the National Press club. He assumed his duty as the 39th chief of staff after holding multiple staff positions in eight divisions and special forces over the last 35 years. See his comments live at 1 00 p. M. Eastern also on cspan 3. Cspan washington journal live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. Coming up thursday morning, washington journal is live from capitol hill discussing the Health Care Bill and the growing opoid crisis. Our guests are Ohio Republican senator rob portman, rhode island democrat whitehouse, chris sununu, New Hampshire democratic natser maggie haason, kentucky congressman hal rogers and edward markey. Be sure to watch washington journal live at 7 00 eastern. Join the discussion. In congress this week the house takes up nearly 800 billion in defense related spending for next fiscal year and the Senate Continues work on a repeal of the Affordable Care act. Watch any time on cspan. Org and listen with the free cspan radio app. Next guest is from the wilson center. She is guadalupe correacabrera, the fellow in the Latin American Program and were here to talk about differences between Human Trafficking and human smuggling. Good morning to you. Good morning. This started as our concern or interest in this thing started off in san antonio. Can you describe what happened in san antonio and how this highlights this concern over trafficking and smuggling of humans . Certainly. An 18 wheeler was sparking and i mean, in the parking lot in san antonio. And there was like i mean, there was a discovery that there were people in the compartment