Transcripts For CSPAN3 Discussion On President Lincolns Funeral Hearse 20150503

Lincoln i think that what i saw if i could just back up a little bit i do not consider myself a courageous man. If i were out on the battlefield with bullets whizzing past my head, i probably would develop a pair of cowardly legs quite quickly, and they would carry my noble head away. But nonetheless, what i saw was very grave. Right after the close of the mexican war, if you divided this country into four parts, only the southeast was given to slavery. The territory from mexico and the northeast were free. In five years, that equation had reversed. 3 4 of our territory i am not speaking of states in number but our National Geography had been given for slavery, in just five years. That is why the Republican Party was founded to stop the spread. And i came to be convinced that there was a conspiracy to make slavery universal. Now when the threats of secession and war and so on began, i realized that like any soldier, i would have to consider that my life may end up being put on the line. But nonetheless, so far, so good. Somebody else. Yes maam. The surrender at appomattox johnson and the other armies will probably surrender in the next couple of months. Lincoln we still have some struggles in the deep south, yes. What are your plans, then after the south comes back to the union, to help both the landowner, those who have been affected and devastated by the war, to help them recover, and to help the slaves who are now free men to assimilate into free society . Lincoln oh my. Her question was my plans to help the former landowners of the south, who in many cases had been divested of their rightful property legally speaking, once they lay down their arms and are not using the property for rebellious purposes there is no legal reason to hold it anymore. So what is to become of them . And then their slaves. Even before i was reelected, i made it clear that the condition would be no slavery. So that is one form of property that will not be returned. Because i do not believe it to be property. I believe it rather to come under the rubric of mankind, and therefore deserving of the rights and privileges of all, as jefferson prescribed. Those two, however, have an already established relationship. The former landowners, being powerful, if they are reinstated in their original position, some of them were political in nature. Would that thrust us back into the very same position that we were in before the war . We dont want that to happen. A provision in my particular plan i refer to with regard to louisiana is that those who have held high office would not be given the vote. Now the objection that i have had to my plan, which was if 10 of those who voted in 1860 would sign an oath of allegiance agreeing with the emancipation proclamation, they could vote and reconstitute their government. And some in congress are objecting to that, because they say that is not democratic. I believe it is impossible to get a majority, even a simple majority of 51 , which means that we then have to thrust all of those states under the auspices of the nation i dont believe that is possible. So i am standing by the 10 plan. If 10 of those people can vote and reconstitute their nation, and that excludes some of those land owners and those who were officers in a high position they would not be able to vote. But their properties would eventually be returned to them. But they would not have the political influence. That is, in its simplest form, the best answer i could come up with right now without getting into too many caveats and spurs, since i am standing on our railroad tracks, maam. The beginning of slavery in the western world i realize that slaves came from africa to three places brazil, the caribbean, and the chesapeake. Who was at that beginning edge . Where did these slaves come from . Were they urban slaves in africa . Who gathered these black people up . Who put them on the ships . Lincoln who gathered the black people up at the beginning of the whole enterprise of slavery . Near as i can tell, it was even older than that, and nations have for countless eons enslave d those who lost battles or wars, and made them their vassals or servants in one form or another. Now, i do not pretend to be an historian. But i do have some familiarity with what is going on in africa right now, in liberia, because i have had many opportunities to speak with those who were at one time in favor of colonization, as i was. And there continues to be intercourse between the tribal groups around liberia with any and many of them are the mohammedan nations, who trade in these poor black victims with other black tribes in africa. Now, of course, before some of the International Barriers were enforced against the slave trades, and which the United States finally joined, european powers were participating as well. And there are still we have had in the last four years some that are participating in illegally from this country in the slave trade. But it is a multifaceted trade and it has gone back for eons. The children of israel were slaves in egypt, as we all recall. How about this young soul back here in the gray shirt . Speak loudly. Where did you learn how to write . Lincoln back when i was in the log cabin, i would see the letters in the book and get a stick and draw on the dirt floor of our little house. Sometimes, i had to empty not sometimes, daily, i had to empty the old ashes out of the fireplace. Sometimes, i could find bits of charcoal from the old burnt pieces of wood. We had a wooden shovel that i shoveled it up into. And i would write on the shovel with that. I wrote in the snow. Anyplace i could. Paper was pretty expensive, and we were poor. But i learned my letters the hard way. Now weigh in the very back there. And then we want to put a time limit on this of some sort. I think we are going to make this the last question. If you would like to come up and speak to me afterwards, i would be happy to. But i see one old gentleman falling asleep, so i need to wrap this up quickly. [laughter] what is your relationship with elizabeth keckley, the just maker for your wife . How well do you know her . Lincoln mrs. Keckley, mrs. Lincolns dressmaker in washington, is a wellfavored and renowned artisan, i should say. In fact, jeff daviss wife used to employ her, and tried to beckon her into the rebel environs, but she was not having any of that. She found mrs. Lincoln, and they have become quite good friends. I, at times, have found some great insights in speaking with her. She has a young son. She was a woman who was enslaved. And through this assiduous nature that she has earned her own freedom, and then continued on to buy her son, and left for parts north before the war, of course. She is a woman of great determination and great insight. I have had many conversations with him. My relationship with her is very cordial. She was comforting, in fact, when willie passed away back in february of 1862. You have been a very kind audience. Let me break character for a moment before we get the rangers, to just tell you my name is fritz klein. You do not have to go that far away. Come back. Im not going to take that long. But what you heard before i started doing the q and a was taken from lincolns words. Just about all of the second inaugural was in that, and some of the projections were made in early 1865, some in late 1864, in his annual message to congress. I picked a couple of things from the first inaugural. You probably, if you are familiar with lincoln quotes, no noticed it. It was 99 lincolns own words, taken from the later part of his life. I hope you enjoyed it. [applause] all weekend long, American History tv is joining our Cox Communications Cable Partners to showcase the history of topeka, kansas. To learn more about the cities on our tour, as it cspan. Org cities tour. We continue with our look at the history of topeka. This is American History tv on cspan3. Justin we are standing in the kindergarten room of the mongrel Elementary School at the brown the board of education historical site and took tk, kansas. This was wanted before africanamerican Elementary Schools operating in tokyo in 1951 when the brown v board of education case was filed in district court. The brown the board of education case is really a small piece of a much larger case that started really back in the late 1920s and early 1930s, which was part of the National Association for the advancement of colored pup appeals best peoples peoples or naacps attempt to overturn segregation. They were attempting to file cases that would allegedly lead to overturn the case of plessy versus ferguson. That was a Supreme Court case that allow the state of louisiana to segregate railcars by race. Once the Supreme Court made the decision that that was constitutional, what you saw was an explosion of laws in the south especially that permitted segregated facilities in all sectors of public life. The naacp was attempting to overturn that precedent and they knew that they could try to do it in one case, but if they lost, that would be the end of their attempt. Really beginning in the 1930s, they began to file cases to chip away at that precedent. The strategy was initially to end segregation and law schools and graduate schools and work down to colleges and down to Elementary Schools. Brown v board of education is the first name to appear out of the list of plaintiffs. Here in kansas, the local chapter of the naacp, but the lawyers and local activists recruited her teen parents one of them was oliver brown. Then there were 12 other mothers. All 13 of those pants had children that attended one of before africanamerican Elementary Schools here in topeka. One of them being the munro school where we are at right now. Oliver brown was a friendly lawyer that was the a friend of the layer a friend of the lawyer who is the counsel for the case. They did what they were looking for was a good member of the community and an upstanding member. Brown was one of those 13 volunteers. It is often accidental whose name gets a trip did. Oliver browns name is listed first even though there was another woman whose name wouldve been first athletically. For some reason, oliver browns name is listed first. It is known as brown, but he was simply one of those 13 parents recruited. Nationwide, there were five cases that included over 2 hundred place 200 plaintiffs total. They were referred to as the brown family although they were one piece of a much larger story. They kindergarten room tells a much larger stories and that the facilities at the munro school were excellent. When people walk into the building, if they remember going to kindergarten and a school like this, it looks like one that they attended whether they are white or black. The facilities were really excellent. They kindergarten room serves to remind people that education is about being a safe place where you can learn from people who are sympathetic to an understanding. That was exactly what was happening here in the munro Elementary School which was an excellent educational expansion when they go out to see the exhibits and photographs of what schools were like an South Carolina and virginia and the District Of Columbia and they see what africanamerican communities indoor, and toward endured, they could see how difficult it was for africanamericans to receive a good education and their communities. In some pico, you would be very hard pressed to determine whether white students are africanamerican students attended because the school board really did provide all of the same materials that the white schools offered. What is even more interesting for most people when they come to visit is that they find out after graduating from Elementary School, africanamerican students attended integrated middle and high schools because the law in kansas only permitted segregation in Elementary Schools with cities of more than 15,000 people. You had separate schools and topeka in topeka and a dozen other communities in the 1950s. But no other communities in kansas could segregate their schools. While there were no supporters of segregation and obviously saw the injustice of attending separate Elementary Schools, the Africanamerican Community also was very proud of their schools because these were excellent facilities. The teachers who were teaching in the classrooms like the one that we are standing and right now all had bachelors degrees if not masters degrees. These were some of the only professional jobs for africanamerican women in the city of topeka. That was going to be lost when schools were integrated. While there was support for the idea of integration, there was also some resistance especially from the teachers and the local chapter of the naacp, who fear the loss of these institutions and the loss of those jobs and those were not unwarranted. When the middle schools integrated a few years before, there were africanamerican teachers who had lost their jobs. The feeling there was very much attention between what was going to be gained, which was full access to neighborhood schools are these africanamerican children lived in the was also a sense of loss for what was going to happen to these teachers and institutions. The museum was very much designed to tell the broader story of the struggle for civil rights in American History and the roots of that go back to the origins of slavery in the United States. So when you enter the building, you will be greeted by a park ranger. The focal point or beginning point of the exhibit is a 25 minute series of films which is set up as a dialogue between a young woman and an older man which basically traces the struggle from the origins of silly very and slavery and replaced it with an institution that was every bit as unjust which were segregation laws. Then, visitors can move into the first gallery of exhibits which looks at the importance of education in the Africanamerican Community. And that leads up to the decision to use education as the legal issue whereby the naacp would end all eggs segregation. That was the wedge issue to integrate educational facilities and all the other dominoes of segregated institutions would fall. Those did not fall easily. One of the most powerful portions of the exhibit is news footage gathered from various locations around the country which were in opposition to the brown decision and to integrate schools. That took place all over the nation, including northern states like massachusetts where there were riots and protests of busing policies to create integrated schools. While there were never major protests or disruptions here in topeka and in kansas, theyre very much was on a national level. Those were extremely violent and extremely bloody and extremely costly to United States. To imagine what it must be like to be a 16yearold boy or girl and be confronted by mob is what the hall encourages attending to recreate. It is one of the most visceral and powerful parts of the exhibit here. One of the things that we are here to do is help engage in dialogue about these kinds of issues because they are ongoing and continuous in our society. There are new court cases and new groups that are constantly struggling for better access and equal access to civil rights. The mission of the National Park service is to preserve our countrys heritage. We dont go and build museums about subjects that are important. We preserve places that were an integral part of that story because we believe that by preserving those pieces of our heritage, even if they are difficult stories to tell what segregation and integration or japanese internment camps, that whether they are from the u. S. Or abroad or whether they are caucasian or africanamerican you better understand the story when you are standing in the place where these events actually happened. There is something intangible in these places that you can actually feel the history resonating by being in these places that were an important part of our history. Throughout the weekend, American History tv is featuring, topeka kansas topeka, kansas. Our cities tour staff visited there recently to learn about the history. To learn more about topeka visit cspan. Org city store. Youre watching American History tv all weekend, every weekend on cspan3. Today on American History tv on cspan3, we are alive from oak ridges elementary for reenactment of president lincolns funeral 150 years later. We will begin at 2 30 p. M. Eastern with a procession of more than 100 reenactors at the ceremony. We will have coverage from 4 00 p. M. To 5 30 p. M. Of the recreation of his ball. Including funeral performances and a 50 cannon salute. President lincolns funeral 150 years later today at 2 30 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3. After president lincoln died his body lay in state at the white house and u. S. Capitol until was moved into attaining a train car to begin the journey to his home town of springfield, illinois. Lincolns funeral was held on may 4, 1865. His coffin placed in a noname hearse was taken in a procession from Downtown Springfield to Oak Ridge Cemetery. Up next, funeral director p. J. Stop talks about the effort to recreate the hearse that kerry lincolns body to his grave site. He discusses the 1865 funeral as the research that went into duplicating the original hearse which was destroyed in the early 20th century. The Illinois Historical Privatization Agency Preservation Agency hosted this 50 minute event. P. J. a way to remember educate, and heal. I want to tell a story about a brief an interesting story, a summary of what has taken place in the last 18 months the Abraham Lincoln hearse build. To remember, thank you president lincoln for affording us a reason to remember. To educate, thank you, Elizabeth Simpsons president of the Old State Capitol foundation to afford us and reach to me last december for the opportunity to speak to this evening. To heal thank you, katie sandel chair of the 2015 Lincoln Funeral Coalition for the opportunity to heal the this project and the upcoming reenactment event. Thank you, our audience, our friends at cspan, our host Justin Blandford for being here and allowing us to share our story this evening as well. It is truly an honor to be here. Mining my name is p. J. Staab. Representing staab Funeral Homes here in springfield illinois, usa. I missyearold director and nonhistorian. I am a funeral director and not a historian. I researched this topic that im very passionate about. A historic moment in time about 150 years ago today at 720 2 a. M. , Abraham Lincoln was officially pronounced dead. News had shocked the nation. President lincoln was the First American president ever assassinated. President lincolns body was carried hundreds of miles by train, passing through more than 100 cities, with formal ceremonies in 12 cities, finally arriving here to his home field in springfield. Millions of people witnessed 7 million to be exact estimated, the procession or viewed approximately one million viewed the body firsthand. Remember, no tv broadcasts or radio. That is about 25 of the nation witnessed personally. In fact, in this very room, is where his body lay before being taken to its final place of honor. This is the same room that Abraham Lincoln served the last of his for terms as legislator and delivered his house divided speech. After an estimated 75,000 mourners viewed the president s body here right in front of us in this very room, pallbearers carried him from this location to the hearse, which made a slow procession to Oak Ridge Cemetery with thousands more line the street to carry the hearse watch the hearse that carried president lincoln to its final destination. The anniversary of his death the special events and reenactments would not be complete without the Abraham Lincoln hearse at the center of it all. Getting involved one might ask how did our family get involved . After a meeting with katies bendel iowas ask can i find a suitable hearse i was asked can i find a suitable hearse . My response was, sure, we will. Not really knowing at that time what it would entail. Katies countless hours, hardware and her dedication fueled our families passion to get involved and performed to the best of our ability. Katie is just one of many of the great people that ive met along the way. Another person that i would like to mention here is artist ray simon. Ray recently completed a commission original life painting of america story yet to be seen. The life and legacy of Abraham Lincoln. After i began researching, i found out the hearse was destroyed by fire in st. Louis, missouri at the liberty stable in 1887. All that was left was a photo that you see here and to silverplate medallions just recently found for all to see. After the initial research, we cannot find a suitable hearse that adequately represented the hearse used for Abraham Lincoln. Much like the historical account of 150 years ago. In an effort to give back and contribute to this historic anniversary, our family decided to assemble a team of historians artisans, and oldschool craftsman to reverse engineer and recreate the elaborate and ornate hearse. This is a mission that is not only vital to the reenactment but a true honor and privilege for a family to play such an Important Role in this is tort moment. It even fits our familys own mission to remember, to educate and to heal. We quickly prioritize this is tort project into three phases. Sort of project into three phases. Phase one began in november of 2013. With design, guidance, and research phase. The object was to find the best photographs plural available. We could only find one. Engage historians to find out more information. Engage architects and fabricating consultants to determine the scale, dimensions, and to provide a blueprint for the build. Professional guidance of this sort was sought by none other than one of our local architects John Schaefer Andrew Martin of schaefer architects springfield, illinois. Attorneys for our legal guidance was the Sterling Firm and jim bay he. We then prepared a timeline for the project for each of the phases. We search for the builders and it began. The search for the builders began. The pressure builds to understand how to use oldschool craftsman to reverse engineer and recreate an 18thcentury vehicle in the 21st century. We had to determine a scale, the dimensions. We had to review the scale revised and start the process all over until we got it just right. We knew the reader will rear wheel had 16 spokes. When you get to 16 spokes together, you have to have a certain size hub. With a certain size hub, it brings the diameter to about 56 inches for the rearview rear wheel, which is about here. From the one car coming would cart carving you seen previously, i measured to the ground. I almost got kicked out of the cemetery that evening. [laughter] until they saw the plate on the car and they said, oh, it is just one of the staabs. When you see that would cut carving at the bottom of the gable where it needs and you measure down to the ground, it is about 13 feet to the top of the plume of the hearse to the ground. It matches that exact height 13 feet. The hearse builds can now commence. We found a medallion confirming the scale with the help of the build team, construction got underway. Phase two began june of 2014. The blocks Blue Ox School and mill works have the pattern photos that you are seeing of screen. They were done by Eric Hollenbeck of blue ox mill, you recap, california you really eureka california. It is not a simple process. Once you know the scale, you make a pattern. You make a mold. You pour the mold. You prepare for the 24 carat gold leaf that is upon the gold. This was a process that we had no clue about and so further Research Began to describe as i will read a little bit later about how we determine the colors of the hearse. Again, Eric Hollenbeck of blue ox mill in eureka, california new as we began the dimension to start from would and finished in maple and this is not a simple process. We know the scale. We build the chamber frame. And the hearse begins to take shape. After hundreds of phones calls in the evening because of our time frame difference, we had builders on the east coast. We were in the midwest and we had builders on the west coast. The west coast follows daylight savings time, but the company that we engaged with out of arizona did not go to daylight savings time. To try to cornet between almost four different time zones, my wife but i would film a commercial about the state farm commercial about how you on the phone all night long. [laughter] p. J. it was that funny for a while for me, but it wasnt for her. The lantern build i thought i would take out three specific elements of the hearse. This is the second one. It might be the third one ive lost track. Mark and tony of steel out of illinois said that, joe read, would fabricators out of springfield illinois. We knew the scale, the dimension , we prepared the mockup and would. Inwood. Then we made the fabrication and lantern. The lantern as you see in front of you here is not complete yet. There is what i phrased a mini me that goes on the top of this. When i said that term over, the boys built a mini me that turned out to be of many Abraham Lincoln. A mini Abraham Lincoln. It was just a little stick figure out a steel. I thought that was really cool that they had their own Abraham Lincoln. Even would not have been on top of the lantern. He would not have been on top the lantern. We got through that. That was kind of neat. [laughter] p. J. the travel team begins phase three february 2015. The travel team escorted the hearse from Northern California to tombstone, arizona. Here you will see Eric Hollenbeck and jack feather offloading at tombstone, arizona. The challenges we faced were tremendous. In Northern California, if anyone has ever been there near there read would force, it is very wet and moist in the sun really shines. You cannot fly in or out without the fog getting in your way. We never anticipated the amount of shrinkage that we would experience due to the climate change. We had to wait two weeks in tombstone, arizona before we even began to do anything with it. So that was a challenge. We assembled the assembly of the chassis and the finishing processes would now take place after that two week period. The chassis finally arrived from pennsylvania through the company of j jones, owner of custom wagons in kentucky. I believe that is about an hour and a half from where Abraham Lincoln was born. Once arriving in tombstone arizona, we had to disassemble everything. We had to take it all back apart in preparation for the paint reassemble many, many parts including upholstery, the chassis, and all the finishing touches by jack feather of tombstone h Hearse Company in tombstone, arizona. The pressure does not stop here. In the newspaper accounts that were revealed to us through our research, we found two accounts and i will quote equals great and black. Was this photo taken in st. Louis or was it taken somewhere else . Here is just a couple of accounts of pressure that are build team now have to face when the surface. Hearse attracted much attention Illinois State register, may 5, 1865. In the funeral procession, no object attracted more deserved attention then the magnus of the only magnificently decorated hearse. I get choked up when i read this. Because it really happened. Drawn by six splendid, black horses. The establishment belongs to the liberty stable of mr. Arnott of st. Louis and was generously tendered by mr. Arnott himself to be used on the occasion. It has been erroneously stated that the mayor of st. Louis tendered the hearse and its splendid paraphernalia. This is a mistake. Mr. Arnott not only gave the use of the establishment but drove it himself. Lincoln funeral hearse ornate silver and black Illinois State journal, may 5, 1865. The hearse used on this occasion lincoln funeral is the same used to convey the remains from the depot to the capital on wednesday. It is probably the most beautifully designed and finish carriage of the kind in the western country. The body is black, oblong in shape, besides rizal leave by silver bands the sides believed by silver bands giving the appearance of panel work. From this body spring silver pillars of gold base in capitals. On the tops of each our representationxss of flames, etc. The spaces between the pillars are filled with heavy plate g lass, around the top figured in gold. Around the top of the carriage runs ornaments of scrollwork of the color of gold. The doors in the rear are plate glass with figures of a rock tomb, brought in silver. Each color is surmounted with black ostrich feathers. Between which are eagles draped in black. The lanterns of silverplated are silverplated and of the usual foreign. The hearse was drawn by six superb black horses, richly draped in bearing upon the crest bunches of ostrich plumes. We have never seen a better or more elegant hearse and all of its appointments. The spirit which led the mayor st. Louis to tender so beautiful carriage for this is highly credible to his feelings and judgment. You can see that after finding these through our research that raised the bar over any hearse i have ever seen and ive seen a lot of hearses. We now had to prove that this photo was taken in springfield. The build team interjection at this point was jack g feather craftsman and friends, who ultimately became the lead builder of phase three for help with the project. He is currently in tombstone arizona, formerly of bedford, pennsylvania, at which he accepted the challenge to build the hearse last year. He had to go down from his Mountain Home through three feet of snow every day for like two months. So he decided to pick up and move to tombstone, but his company was named tombstone hearse and he had never been in tombstone. That was the first time he had ever been there when he moved his entire operation to tombstone. It is just one man. Eric hollenbeck, oldschool expert craftsmen, lead builder of phase two. His equipment that he uses in his mill there are mostly from the 1800s with the newest piece of equipment of 1948. He is in eureka, california. The blue ox mill was asked by the white house to talk to a forum which included a number of years ago president clinton and Vice President al gore. J jones recreated the rolling chassis. I sent him my pencil sketches that i thought were pretty cool. He said i needed blueprints. Again, thanks to John Schaefer Andrew Martin. The blueprints were john drawn based on my pencil sketches and they could build it exactly the way it turned out which is from kentucky and his company name is custom wagons, llc. His Company Makes about 500 wagon wheels a month, plus other custom carriages. One of the questions i have at this point is what do think these builders have in common . The picture you see before you there. They are all veterans. They are all veterans. Jack feather, vietnam veteran serve as crew chief from 1972 to 1975. Abandon their as most of the troops were gone from 72 1972 to 1973. Eric holland that, hollenbeck, vietnam veteran in the tet offensive in 1968. The Blue Ox School for veterans was established because of this very build project. The Abraham Lincoln hearse. It was established by eric and his wife, billy anna Viviana Hollenbeck for returning veterans from iraq and afghanistan. Many men and women finding it difficult to come back to civilian life after being trained in the fields of combat. Jay jones. Three tour vietnam veteran. As he sought earlier these as you saw earlier, these veterans wanted to put their mark on abraham can hearse and for the day, a be lower jewelers provided are proud family friend black onyx sees sheatshs of black onyx. They wanted to shape what will be placed upon a crown beneath each of the plumes. There happens to be four on each plume, which is 16 for our 16th president. Our combat veterans build this iconic freedom for the nation. The request by Katie Spindell for hearse and the response by the staab family to research and coordinate a build team. The result that was by our veterans. [applause] p. J. forged and resolve reverse engineer and recreated the icon of freedom for the nation. And we hope that through this process we have exceeded the expectations for all. There will be additional time here, i understand, for questions and answers. I would love to have questions. We kept the presentation short because it is really an unfinished story that continues to on full every day for the last 18 months. I think it will continue to unfold for decades. For the reenactment event, visit linking funeral coalition. Org Lincoln Funeral Coalition. Org. For the build process updates, visit abraham lindenhurst. Com. Abraham lincoln hearse. Com. And the conundrum report, which i would be glad to take question and answers on that, will be available in the near future. With this, we conclude our brief talk about the build of the Abraham Lincoln hearse and i appreciate your attention. Thank you. [applause] p. J. i think the questions if you write them down and pass them to the end or the center aisle or what have you, they will bring them to me. Make sure you write big