Transcripts For CSPAN2 Today In Washington 20110427

experiences. >> "washington journal"ñ >  ñ q continues. host: marion blakey is the former faa administrator from 2002-2007, current the ceo of aerospace industries associated. let's begin with this headline in the "wall street journal." down at the end of the article, from someone who served on the safety board. he goes on to say this, science is very consistent about the importance of permitting naps of abruptly -- of roughly half an hour to help controllers feel more alert. what is your take on this? guest: the key thing is that professionals working in the kind of shift work or safety is involved have to be fully rested. they do have to approach this with schedules that allow enough time to sleep appropriately. whether it is naps or a good eight-hour and night's sleep, one of the problems with the current system is that it is loaded in the wake of a two-to- one schedule, so that they can have the maximum amount of time off. it splits -- it makes the last ship, the one where people are the most tired, the midnight shift. many people wanted to hold onto it because it does give the most time off. host: it says here that for 30 years this has been a problem. can you speak to the history of this more? guest: i did not know about 30 years. we have been running the safest system by far for a long time. controllers are professionals and on the hold to a very good job. i don't think that you could sort out that there has been a fatigue issue of all along, except in some cases. but as we learn more about their circadian rhythms it is time to examine some of the underlying practices because we cannot change them. host: some talk about the training that faa controllers are allowed to go through before they are allowed to sit in those towers. does that include sleep deprivation training? guest: absolutely. they are highly trained. they go through months and months of very rigorous training, both technical and human factors. questions of how you allow yourself to when you are too tired, and what kinds of sleet and eating habits, what kind of relaxation and exercise, all those things go into a controllers training. a lot it is common sense as they go along. i do not think it is a question of a lack of training. it may be a question of complacency. i am assuming that they are consummate professionals, that they can somehow make do with less sleep, that they can be less vigorous in the way that they focus being on the job, and that is something we all have to guard against. host: what is the quality of their training? guest: it is excellent. it begins with preparatory schools, universities, then they go to oklahoma city, okla. where they spent months in training, both on the technical aspects of the job, radar, how you work with pilots in terms of control, voice control, all of the kind of separation techniques used -- there is extremely sophisticated technology now. that is a great deal of the training, has his training about what are the habits of a good professional in this kind of job. it takes folks with high energy, a question of getting them oriented toward using their energy and their best ability to focus. that is something that mentors also dealt with on the job. host: what is a like to be in a tower? does that fit well with these personalities? guest: i think it does, for people that like to step up and be on the job on the balls of their feet all day. there is one that is highly oriented in many ways, the kind of training that they both have come a pilots and controllers, focus on the professionalism. their ability to hone in on exactly what is being done at the time, clothes and other distractions come and really work together closely. that's something that takes a lot of training. on both sides, and pilots have done a good job on the fatigue front, by the way. host: those to go through the faa training to be in the control room, how many graduates compared to how many want the job? guest: there is a washout phase. i do not know what the current figures are. but it is true that there is a sorting out process. but again, only certain types of people with certain skills will make the best controllers. host: could the private sector do the job better than having the government run the control tower's? guest: i do not necessarily think so. there is nothing magic about the responsibilities whether public or private sector. but the private sector offers a great deal in terms of the best technology, and also the crossover techniques like the medical industry. there is a good bit that you learned from the private sector. and i will say this, the private sector in most air traffic control systems is in charge. we can learn from what others are doing. i do not think that there is a magic thing that says government versus private. host: we're talking with marion blakey who ran the faa in the early 2000's. what sort of clients to you now represent? guest: we manufacture everything that flies. from the f-22 to things like the space shuttle. we represent space as well as it usaf all the way through commercial and military. host: we're talking about the big companies. guest: lockheed martin, federal dynamics, lockheed -- i could go on. it is much of the names that you have come to know and rely on. so many of them keeping our troops say. host: a republican in jesup, maryland. caller: my husband has done shift work for 30 years. it is his responsibility to make sure that he is well rested before he goes again. i think the problem with the controllers are they are splitting the chefs. they're working two days on day shift, and then a couple on the night shift. if they would just make a night shift, a day shift, it would work to much better for those working at night. it throws off your body rhythms if you bounce back and forth. host: what you mean it is your husband's responsibility to be well rested? is that part of some agreement he has when he took on this job? caller: absolutely. the work that he does required this. he has got work to do and he needs to get it done in the eight hours. host: what does he do for a living? caller: telecommunications. host: can you translate what her husband goes through to the experience of the control tower's? guest: she makes a very good. name. the more that your body is able to remain on a given schedule, he gets used to it, and you sleep adequately between shifts, the better it tends to work. it is the split shift, they stack up differently, but it is true that any given week, and you have to shift from working early mornings to days and then moving into an afternoon and then the overnight schedule, that means your body is constantly trying to catch up. 50 cents cn -- fatigue sets in. host: he said the unions have lobbied for these types of schedules because it allows for more time off. how much time do they get off? guest: they have had the schedule for a lot of time. it is a preference. it is typically a three day weekend. i can understand that. host: we'll go to pittsburgh. patrick on the democratic line. caller: this is what we encounter not just in the airline industry but across the landscape in america we have declared war on workers. we have turned it into an absolute obsession by corporate america. every corporation she highlighted has their fingers in the treasury of the united states. we need to cut back the military-industrial complex, and corporate welfare, and invest in the workers of this country, which are under absolute assault. host: we have your point. marion blakey? guest: i am not familiar that -- of many companies in the aerospace industry that are involved in corporate welfare. these companies manufacture technology that keep our fighters safe. one of the things that is best about the u.s.'s we do not have a plain field that is not level. -- is play in a field that is not level. that is what our companies put their work in corporate life into. i consider that public service. host: the caller mentioned defense cuts. what impact does that have on the industries that that -- that you represent? guest: the defense industry is the source of a tremendous number of high-paying jobs for -- 800,000 jobs. i would also point out that in terms of the overall economy, we are the largest contributor to a positive balance of trade. we talk about our economy. look at the fact that this is an industry that exports find technology. we help support the economy. we were part of what helped us through this recession. if it is cut, you have to be very careful. secretary gates himself has said that we really cannot afford while we are fighting two wars, and it looks like the president is taking this into a third, to begin to talk about slashing defense is a dangerous thing to do. we will not have the technological edge if we are not able to invest in new programs, and that is really at the heart of things -- research and development, and new advances. the thick, hear from a democrat in pittsburgh. -- vick, a democrat in pittsburgh. caller: i had the privilege of my mother and two friends that were involved in the macarthur tower in long island, so i was r.le to tou it was a very, very stressful job. i also have a neighbor involved as an air traffic controller. it is one of the most stressful jobs on the face of this earth. to imagine that you are covering approximately about -- especially in new york, probably about a good 200 planes an hour that you have to be responsible for. the stress level leads lead -- to a high divorce rate and high alcoholism. that is one of the reasons why they were protesting in the early 1980's when ronald reagan had fired all of the air traffic controllers at that time. host: marion blakey, your reaction to that caller? guest: if it is a job that involves a lot of intensity. it's certainly has stressful moments. the caller is talking about the new york area, which is the most congested airspace we have. there are issues from the standpoint of being very much a profession that takes that degree of an ability to tolerate. i do not know that there are disproportionate incidence of alcoholism or divorced. he is going back a long way if he goes beds to the ronald reagan era. -- if he goes back to the ronald reagan era. host: according to reuters, the house and the senate have succumbed to an agreement on an essay a reauthorization bill. if the chairman of the transportation committee says this could effect those negotiations. what impact these things that would have? guest: it would depend on what he has in mind, and i can not read the chairman's mind. i do not think this is a question of for the most part, intentional this behavior -- miss behavior. a someone who intentionally goes into a control tower knowing they will not devote their full time and energy to the job should be dismissed and dismissed immediately. but, when people make mistakes, the question is how you address those and how you get rid of what might be a more broader problem? i think the fact that the current administrator is going out and visiting towers, and talking with controllers and groups about the question of professionalism and what it takes to do this job with the full ability, full attention, and doing that with the full leadership of the union, i see that as a positive step. host: let's go to houston, texas, nancy, an independent. caller: i used to manage a small office, and i cannot leave how complicated the government makes everything. with the controllers, all you need to do is hire some senior citizens that would like to pick up an extra $100 a week, have them sit with the person that has only one person in the control room, and they will make sure that they stay away, or if they take on nafta and something comes up, and lights are flashing, then they wake them up. that is all there is to it, and it would cost the government so little money. i do not understand why we have to make it so complicated. guest: that is an interesting idea, without a doubt. i am not sure i would support it. there are small places that need people there that are highly- trained and know what is going on. it takes months and months and months of training. extra people, or lay people up there, i think it would be more of a distraction. host: let's go to jay in detroit, on the republican line. caller: i am a former military fire and radio tower control operators. the reason i didn't do the tower work anymore is related to this issue. the issue is scheduling and the science associated with normal human sleep rhythm. it is really simple. the science is very good on the aviation side. they haven't worked out well. i would the interested -- they have it worked out well. i would be interesting -- interested to have your guests godard and their road. there is clear guidance. -- go down that road. there is clear guidance about what is required to be able to fly in terms of dealing with your sleep cycle. the two-to-one cycle is not good to how humans get sleet. i suppose it has more to do with the unions, but i do not know why they insist on rejecting the obvious, simple policies that work for the pilots, and apply them to the controllers. the apply a lot of other stuff, but they will not apply the simple concepts to get people enough rest to do their job. host: again, that is two evening shifts, two of the ships, and two overnight shift. guest: i think the pilots and the airline industry have addressed this responsibly, as has the military in terms of research manuals and ongoing training. in terms of pilots and copilots double checking and enforcing each other on these things -- one of our predecessors, who used to be the added measure of the faa wrote a piece in this weekend's "wall street journal." he called the 2-2-1 schedule a rattler because it will come back to bite the controller. i think more controllers are realizing that as we know more about fatigue, those things are hard on them, and also dangers for the public. host: what has been the recommendation over the years to switch the schedule? what type of schedule? guest: schedules that are much more consistent with the body's rhythms, and maintain the same schedule throw a working week, so your body gets used to it. whether you're working a day shift or an overnight shift, consistency helps. also, having enough time between shifts to take care of daily things and get a decent eight hours of sleep. if it sounds like common sense, but it has not been installed in a lot of places. it is important. the national transportation safety board has also called on the faa and the unions to change these kinds of schedules. there's a lot of pressure to make a shift. host: your note did you represent companies like boeing. here is a headline from yesterday -- it says a federal investigators allege at a manufacturing laps at a boeing factory 50 years ago led to the mid-air rupture. while it is too early to draw conclusions, the probe is focused on air deriving from the assembly line. what can you tell us about this? guest: i used to head the ntsb, which investigates accidents. i learned of the you do not speculate about what they cause might be. if you read all the way through, there were a lot of qualifiers. the important thing is to let investigators do their work, gets to the heart of their problem, and it may be a problem to -- with one aircraft, or it could be exacerbated with cycle time. there are so many things that could be at the heart of something like that incident, but the real important thing to do is to make sure you have the facts checked, and i have no way of knowing what happened 15 years ago in a plant. host: so, 15 years ago, -- displayed has stayed in circulation for 15 years. is this typical? -- co-absolutely. an aircraft in a typically five -- fly 25 years. b-52's are flying 50 years and older. host: under guidelines, how often do they have to be looked heaven and maintained? guest: -- looked at and maintained? guest: ofthere are routine maintenance checks that happen all the time. there is then what is called heavy maintenance, and they have been regularly over periods of time, so that the planes go through a thorough review before they go back into service. a lot of maintenance happens at that point. the system is extremely safe, and i do not think anyone is suggesting there is no need for another approach to maintenance, but we do need to get to the bottom of what may have happened in a specific incident -- incident. boeing is looking into this. i feel very confident they will get to the bottom of the. host: wendy's expect an answer? -- when do you expect an answer? guest: you have to look a forensic evidence, did the model assistant, examine the records, talk to the pilots -- everyone acknowledges in need to figure this out, but the key thing is that both boeing, the airline, and the faa acted immediately. they decided that they needed to check this particular group of and they immediately went into the intense inspection which involved skimming the with a light detector that could see what is going on under the skin of the aircraft -- where there might be thaw cracks or problems. that has been done, and i think they have a great deal of knowledge and confidence in the planes that fly. host: we will go to chris, a democrat in hollywood, florida. caller: house subject are the faa regulators to the political process? if it was the republicans, all of these things would be scuttled. with labor and regulations, just like a lot of other industries, especially in republican administrations? host: let me get back to the funding cut the the republicans propose. will the impact be of that? guest: issue is effected in the federal budget, the deficit, and what we will do about the debt. one region where that will come from, i do not know. -- where that will come from, i do not know. we are concerned that the cuts will come from the next generation, which is something we are concerned about turned it is the future of what air- traffic is -- of where air traffic is going, and it will make traffic safer. we are talking about losing to a satellite system, where what we take for granted, we assume gps will provide navigation. that is not true. we're still working with world war ii technology with radar and radio control. it is simply a system than needs to be replaced because it will allow us to know much more precisely where planes are, and allow for automation. importantly, in times where fuel costs are going through the roof, it will very much reduced fuel burned and that means environmental benefits. host: the price tag is $1 billion a year through 2018. can we afford it? guest: we have to afford it. when you look of the cost benefit, it is enormous in about three years, the system is paid for itself. when you realize fuel is the single highest thing that airlines have to shell out, it is driving everything. also, the fact that we spend a lot in terms of cleaner air and working on the issue of the environment and emissions, all of those things really contribute to concrete, monetary investments. we do not blink of our roads and highways, so we should not when it comes to aviation as well. again talk in terms of safety, there are huge benefits. host: michael is an independent in wilmington, vt.. thank you for waiting. caller: i would like to challenge you on various things. you are speaking about your industry, which is basically the defense industry making america a safer. in the middle east, we have a good example. we supplied weapons to some of the most brutal dictators or aggressive nations that masked as democracies without blinking. i would also like to know how much money your industry falls too loud? -- lobbyists through all of congress next -- congress? i would like you to comment on how much influence you buy. you also talked about our volunteers. these people are people that i've been deprived of the ability to go to school -- that has been deprived of the ability to go to school because your industry is one of the industry that has exported american jobs to different places in the world. i would like to compliment your industry for the technological off, engineering advances that give us cell phone, computers, the wonderful things that we have. host: i think i missed your first point. what was it? caller: the defense industry does not keep america safe. we create problems brought the world. we supply weapons for people to use on their own people and expand their territory. host: we will start there. marion blakey come at you have any thoughts on that? -- do you have any thoughts on that? guest: the defense industry is called on by the congress and the pentagon to supply the equipment that will protect war fighters and enable us to deal with conflicts. i do not think anyone will challenge the fact that we live in a dangerous world, the threats are real, and we begin their not of our making. to address those, we have a very brave group of men and women and officers, and they are the ones that determine what they need. some of this goes to high tech aircraft, and some of this goes in night vision goggles, the kind of things that make a difference to the war fighter out there care in our industry is proud to supply what is requested -- out there. our industry is proud to supply what is requested and approved. by the way, i would challenge the caller on the experience of men and women that go into the military. you will see that there is a very well and-educated group that choose this as an avenue, and when they come out, they have a tremendous educational advantage in terms of the current version of the gi bill and the bills letter offered to their families that the average person does not have. so, if the military is an excellent career, and you can look at statistics on recruitment, and the number of people that i going in that testifies to that. i would certainly say that the caller lives in another world, and it is a dangerous world. host: what about the case street lobbying? guest: that is something people love to throw up as a red herring. lobbyists, those on the hill, are usually making the case for a specific issue in the course of the legislative process. i have no idea what kind of money is invested by any of the corporate entities out there, be there in our field, pharmaceuticals, or across the entire spectrum, but remember, this is part of free speech. having people that are still better understanding the issues, the arguments, and being able to make a good case, that is a part of a the way america works in terms of our decision making. host: are you a registered lobbyist? guest: no. host: florida, is that on the republican line. -- zach on the republican line. caller: thank you to "washington journal." you guys to a great job. my question to you is it seems you are putting all of the blame on the men and women in the control tower's to almost sourced about as citizens of the military can to treat -- completely control this industry. correct me if i'm wrong, it seems the government is taking over nasa and our travel industry to almost hold us all hostages. how can the government shut down nasa? it is supposed to be an exploration to see where we are going, and now you guys are going to open it up to commercial -- host: i think we got your point. let's leave it there, with the future of nasa. guest: we believe nasa has a great future. it is an incredibly important part of our exploration and technological advances. hit us contributed so many things to this country, as well as the leadership that the united states exercises in space. we want to see that advanced. we think more money is needed from that standpoint. at this point, we would like to see a greater clarity about the vision of where we are going with human exploration of space -- the administration has shifted gears. we are putting more reliance on commercial providers of launch. there are different approaches. what we need is more robust funding. from that standpoint, i would say there is no attempt to shut down nasa, but the government short -- certainly could fund nasa with greater resources so it could accomplish what we want to see, which is the exploration of the further out reaches of space. host:" christian months science monitor has a link the -- lengthy piece with a picture of the crew for shuttle endeavor. it is scheduled to takeoff friday. will you be there? guest: i was at the last lunch. it was very exciting. wish i could beat ed -- i wish i could be at each of them. gabrielle giffords will be there. will be an exciting launch. i will tell you, everyone should watch this. it is the most amazing thing when you see the tiny spacecraft attached to those giant rocket. the earth shakes, and then you realize what humankind and the united states can do. host: where were you when you watched the last one? in the control room, outside? guest: just outside, in a tower that was not terribly far away. i watched it on television, and it was very different. for one thing, you see the flame, and it is just enormous. all of a sudden, you feel this reverberation, and then the noise hits you. it is all tied together. when your heart feels like it is being pounded by this, it is a very visceral, personal experience. host: we will go to burlington, vt., ron, on the democratic line with marion blakey, who served as the faa administrator from 2002 until 2007. she is currently president and chief field of the aerospace industries association. caller: well, congratulations on all of those accomplishments. is it true that boeing will be building a plant in china, and furthermore, i am curious about the restrictions, or the agreements that are made with china. i have heard that once a corporation does build a plant there, that the intellectual property rights and patents hard in joint -- become jointly owned by the corporation and the state of china. is that true? guest: i am not familiar with any requirements that you are laid out from the standpoint of the chinese government, the way those agreements work. i think it very much depends on technology, what kind of manufacturing is going done, etc.. i am not familiar that they are building a new plant in china. they are building a new plant in south carolina, which everyone is excited about. if you will see huge numbers of aircraft coming of of those assembly lines, and populating the skies. america is still very competitive from that standpoint with many chinese aircraft that might be manufactured over there. the chinese themselves are manufacturing several aircraft. they have one right now, and they have aspirations to build one the size of the larger aircraft. we will see how that goes. one of the things they you do see is that a lot of the companies, but the they european, u.s., as sarah, are asked -- be they european, u.s., asked to provide technology. i would also said the united states has a robust system of export controls when it comes to higher levels of experts technology. approval has to be given by the government. while the system is under reform, which should be, because we need highest interest on a higher technology, but the broader principles apply -- we are vigilant about what is exported and i think that is appropriate. host: at the chamber of commerce the maroc, it will be the 10th annual aviation's cemetery you are speaking their -- chamber of commerce, it will be the 10th annual aviation conference. you'll be speaking. caller: the benefits are very important. i will use another event that was in the news recently, and this was the recent go around, and the recent abortive landing of michele obama's landing. these things happen in a system. it is not a terribly unusual event. the reason i bring it up is deborah -- bringing it up is that in the next generation, you will have so much more automation has and precision with exactly to where aircraft are in relation with each other, that it would be highly, highly unlikely that you would find a circumstance like that when you get the system in. we are not that far away. the ground stations that will provide this kind of control will be completed by 2013. what we needed to get the equipment on board the aircraft, and that is something i will be talking about tomorrow because it is expensive for the airlines to install that, and it is something we need to think about. host: in the meantime, with mistakes like that happening and the skies becoming more crowded, are you 100% confident the skies are saved? guest: i am confident. when you look to the statistics and how historian and author abbas milani talks about "the shah" he's the director of the iranian studies at stanford university. he spoke of the world affairs council in san francisco for an hour. >> the subject i'm going to be talking about as ralph and the generous introduction mentioned is that during the importance of the shah coming and essentially it is an attempt to explain my i spent about ten years finishing the book that you have to my left, the book called "the shah" i think it is increasingly clear at least to me that the fall of the shah was one of the pivotal figures and events of the second half of the 20th century. in a recent review of this book in fact, in "the wall street journal" the preview compared the revolution of 1979 in terms of its magnitude to the bolshevik revolution of 1917 and said that is how important and how consequential that he meant was in 1917 revolution, the soviet union, the cold war it's hard to imagine a more important even and he claims and i don't think that he is off that this revolution invests the fall of the shah was an even of equal magnitude. so in nomani view understanding the shah is very much about understanding today. it's about understanding iran today and it's about understanding why we are where we are today both domestically in iran and in terms of iran's relationship with the u.s.. i think if you ask any book reader in the english-speaking world on suspect any part of the world and ask what are the major problems about iran, but they would point to the nuclear program, the space movement, and they would probably point to the events of august 1953 as a turning point in the u.s. iran relations. august 1953 is when the government was overthrown and dismissed and the new phase in his power again and some have pointed to september 11th as having its origin and that even at this hospital that is supposed to be. the iranian democratic movement as i would argue shortly, hiram's nuclear program as i will try to argue shortly, and the even to august 53 by definition have all of them at the center and the figure of the shah, and i think it is extremely urgent because understanding him as in the chest about understanding the past but it's also about mapping out the future role in understanding why we have the tortured past two today. if you ask politics and the society would have been the defining problems of the last century in iran, i would think again there is some consensus of the three major problems iran faced in the last century has been the question of motormen the and the traditions. very much included in this debate the tradition is a question of what does it mean to be, the question of the iranian identity, is the identity islamic or is the identity a hybrid identity or primarily by the islamic identity is an unfit in disease that has come a thousand years ago and has been rejected by the body politic. third question aside from the tradition and modernity the question of identity again the question incumbent in the early issues the question of the debate between the democracy and despotism between progress and authoritarianism, the question of whether you can have democracy and progress at the same time or whether there is something he did in iran's current political culture, social, some would say even ethnic makeup that requires the one form of despotism after another, how it will replace the shah authoritarian some with a far more brutal and more oprah's if less confident and corrupt regime. how is it to get someone who now has more power than any team ever had and also claims to speak for god. recently one of his against god himself into the language in the shia got his man and have suggested that the fact that it is a misogynist. in all of these questions, domestic questions, and the international questions and his period 1941 to 1979 figures extremely prominently. it is the contention of the book that the space movement we have heard so much about, the green movement we hear so much about by bringing three major people in the city of 12 million people who silently march and asked what happened to the goal which could occur that every fundamental composition of the same forces that brought them down so understanding why the shah felt, understanding why the coalition formed against them coming and i will explain why you this strange helps us understand why there has been political instability in iran the last 30 years. if american policy makers had truly studied the case of the nuclear program and how he went about, they would manage the nuclear negotiations with iran in a different way and might have better results. finally, in the book and i offer a rather different view of august 53. my argument is that the event of august 53 are far more complicated than the narrative offered by the loyalists' which claim it received national uprising or by those who claim it was an infamous cia to. i think the reality is far more complicated than i try to explain why it is more complicated and why confect the people who rule iran today, the clergy had far more to do and the cia ever did. in my view unquestionable dominant force whose shift of position is essentially completely shifted the dynamic with the clergy when they decide you could clearly see in the documents the balance of the forces was not against. i refer to documents and documents are the last reason we now need another beinecke of the shah. there have been about a dozen biographies of the shah so far and in my view unfortunately all of them have been commissioned biographies in the sense that they were either written to the - by the opponents or lionize. many of them were directly paid by overseas. in one case they pay the french and british half a million pounds in that time she came to spend very little time in iran and the british embassy should spend most of the time in iran and the company of the youngstown was eager to meet this biographer and did very little and everything else everybody else had written in the biographies of the shah. so the biographies haven't been justice and partly the haven't done justice to the shah and dewitt has been commissioned but part of it has been because it hasn't been impossible to write in my view the document account of the revolution because some of the most critical documents we needed declassified post in the american archives and the british archives there is a 30 year rule. most of the documents are classified, some are classified for 70 years and they get declassified in a sequential fashion and essentially had to wait until 2009 for some of the most important documents to be classified. literally the part about the nuclear program, the documents i needed that i have used to write history of the shah's nuclear program or to plus point about three months before the book went in to press the classification of the bucha have to realize the entire chapter because about a thousand pages of documents were available. sweet is now urgently needed for reasons that i have explained, and it is now more than everything possible if one doesn't want to - or d - and i tried to do neither. i tried to rely could to on with the indicate. it's composed of 20 chapters, some period are treated much more quickly and some because they are deemed more important in the understanding of the revolution covered in greater depth for example the chapters of media hundred pages that cover 1959 to 1963 but i think that is a pivotal period in iran and that is when the shah with pressure from the americans, the pressure that has begun with the eisenhower had ministration and was augmented in the kennedy administration forced the shah to undergo changes. some of the changes were very much changes he wanted to do all along but wasn't powerful enough to dewitt and to his credit the had been talking about the reform almost of the day that he ascended the throne but some of them were clearly mandated and pressured by the kennedy administration and by the eisenhower administration. it is remarkable how worried the administration of the eisenhower and kennedy were about the future of iran in 1958, 59, 60. they thought the revolution was rate of around the corner. unless something is drastic done and equipping these documents it is truly remarkable how anxious they were and correct essentially the message in everything they predicted that then the equally remarkable is how far the cia is off the mark in 1978. in 1958 they were predicting the revolution in that tehran was burning the cia in this infinite wisdom decided that it's not even in the pre-revolutionary state the shah is here to stay. the opposition is decimated. there is nothing that is quinn to fundamentally a challenge. this is 78, amid 58 unless we do something tomorrow there will be a revolution there won't be any shah. these changes that camel and recalled the revolution essentially prepared the ground for the revolution in this way. the idea behind the revolution was very much the modernization idea in the social science communities. the idea that you need to modernize the society and educate people and enfranchise and urbanization and if you have a middle class technocrats in charge of, the bureaucracy that is confident then the society can have progress and then democracy can come so it is a package deal. it was when to jettison his traditional social base of power. the base of power everybody understood this from 1958 to the base of power was the aristocracy, the clergy behind him and continues to support him, the military and some elements of the industrial middle class or upper class. the idea was to create a larger middle class. the idea was to do away with the system, the idea was to create the technocratic educated middle class that would be the shah's these of support. what happened unfortunately was that in the process of change the united states and iran both underwent important changes 1965 the price of oil begins to change and from 1966 the shah literally no longer meets american aid. if an 1962 he comes to the white house and says i want a military of 150,000 kennedy says know you're going to have similar to shifrin hundred 20,000, kennedy won the argument because kennedy was paying for them. iran was the biggest recipient of the u.s. foreign aid from 1953 to 1961 in the military gave the shah more than a billion .5 ayman eight. it's a remarkable solomon that period. from 65 on the shah no longer needed this. from 74, it was the west that now needed the shah's money. they went on the landing bend and gave away about 1.5 billion to almost anybody that came from london's mayor asking for money to rebuild from london to zimbabwe to pakistan, anybody that came, france, american companies, american companies on the verge of bankruptcy and got their money and went back. with this economic independence came political independence. they no longer needed to keep the american pressure to democratize. moreover, mexican to power in the united states, and has implemented what was called the nixon doctrine and i argue in the book about the development of the doctrine and how the shah was influential in the development of the doctrine, but the doctrine basically said if the shah what he wants, sell as much military as he wants and don't put him about the democracy. abutting the shah about the democracy is something that every u.s. administration from roosevelt to carter had done with the exception of nixon and it is precisely during the nixon era where the economic change is bringing it about and where they're moving the society towards lowering the society into the new social fabric and the agricultural revolution completely changed the fabric of the countryside and cities. if you want to know, follow the lines of the shah. i've written an article about the review called the populism and catchers what i'm talking about. they're living in the small village by the early 60's the decided they can't survive in the village because there was the change the few was amended and there was no infrastructure support. they come to tehran and become dwellers in these marginal neighborhoods and who's there to sing the song of revolution? the clergy. why is it only the clergy there to sing the song to the revolution? because every other force in iran from the left to the right was decimated by the authoritarian and some. the shah believed the authoritarianism was a necessary step to progress and iran remains remarkable progress in this period. during the early 70's the had sometimes 20% increase in gdp. it's a remarkable change. i've given some statistics on iran in 1925 when the dynasty took over in the iran in 1978 when the crisis begins and the remarkable transformation of the country on the verge of complete collapse to the verge of the middle class with the capitalist economy with the industrial base that is competitive with a hit delete kosoff greenup and iran is very much in the same league and the same ballpark as turkey. this is a remarkable change but it's come at the price of the, percy. it's come up the price of no political opposition involved in this country. the only group allowed to organize and mobilize and create social clubs for themselves what they called it the mosque, they didn't cut the social club, they called it a schools to teach. they didn't call and training seminars, they called it summer camp for the pious. the clergy created some from 1941 to 1979 a remarkably subtle and complicated multifaceted network of organizations that went everywhere from the most lethal organization called islam led by young man to the most benign class's of teaching the study of iran. this network encouraged was the only force capable and the country together in late 1978 when the u.s. and britain both the same time october 78 is when both countries decide that the shah can no longer stay in power and can't stay in power primarily because he is given the decision in times of crisis. they had shown they cannot withstand pressure in 1953. the shah had shown he wasn't a saddam hussein, he was much more likely to free the scene of the crisis if it arose. he almost left the country five times before 1953. and in 1978 if the british and the americans began to see the rise of the movement in iran and began to see people making decisions, they began to look for what the british prime minister called the way to reinsure. they wanted to look for somebody that they could form a pact with and they could allow the country. who emerges on the scene? the clergy. this network that they have created. who plays his hand brilliantly, the man by the name of khamenei by opposing the right, up by opposing the land reform and opposing the force agreement with the united states, by using anti-semitic against israel in 1962. he was exiled in 1964 and he lived from 64 to 77 in exile and he wrote some of the most remarkably anti-democratic, antimodern treaties has ever penned in the modern persian language. nobody in iran was allowed to read them because he was a bad person his works were banned and know i reading and accept the few radicals had ever chanced to read what he really intended to. he had set a very clearly what he was thinking, but in late 70's very astute politician that he was recognized that that isn't going to win him the day. they wanted democracy. every indication is the revolution wasn't about the economics as i told you the progress was remarkable. it wasn't about anything else of peruvian political freedom. there was more cultural freedom in iran in 1978, 77 and any of the muslim country in the middle east. the iranians were free to live their private lives in the way they wanted for the first and the last time in history, and jews, christians and even members of the religion that has been persecuted by the regime incessantly and achieve moral equality with everyone else. some members of the jewish community of iran. the fed 150,000 jews in iran and today still iran has more jews than the other muslim countries put together and 20,000 people live in iran but in 1975 there was 150,000 people. the had more or less religious quality. there was a woman beginning to get equal rights under the law. they were beginning to get the right to vote contrary to the islamic prescriptions, but these were not the people were interested in. people wanted political freedom. they wanted to share in the decision making he almost made that by giving the iranians the economically prosperous lives he's going to quiet them from demanding release them from demanding the political rights. he was trying to do in iran in 1975 what we today call for china model. with china is doing today the shah did and field which is give people a great deal of economics freedom, give them some prosperity and then it has eight returned demand that they do not engage in equal power sharing in that one local. people got the economic welfare the was created as a result of the price of oil but nonetheless, they were not interested in any of these things. they were not interested in the left chest highest fees has declaration. so, he appears on the horizon and says to everybody including america which he volunteers my found some remarkable documents about the extent of the regime and contact with the american officials in the months before the revolution. the same regime that today is putting people in prison because of the american official was actively seeking and establishing the context of americans both khomeini in paris and his allies into ron. you realize that with the americans are looking for is the force that could hold the country together, keep the communists out of iran so it is still the soviet union and keep the oil running. in the letter that he writes to carter more or less what i told you says what do you want? you want the country to be held together, we will do all of this. tell the military to stop supporting and that is what the american government debt. the american government proceeded on behalf of khamenei with the military the general was three much involved in telling the leadership to the future belongs to this regime, and i must say it was their ignorance, not the viciousness, the american ambassador to iran that time that i think believed that domini is going to create a space regime because like the rest of the society he hadn't read the work. he had been talking to some of the democrats and some of the intellectuals and they all told him khamenei was saying to everybody publicly. he promised more than once in fact more than dozens of times he gave more than 110 interviews in paris in the three months he was in paris. not once those he mentioned the word. not once in fact for repeatedly when he was asked if the government of iran is going to be a detriment of the clergy he said absolutely not. he said i myself will go to the city and will leave the power to the people. the first constitution that was drafted to iran while khomeini was back in iran the had already fled the country. the regime had already fallen. the first constitution the was developed with the profoundly space constitution. to gradually and efficiently sightline and marginalize the democratic forces won by one that is written at period now had at its center the concept at the rule. one of the first decisions he made was to was to stop the program and in the same period when iran's rise of income have given the grandiose idea some of you might remember from those days when he talked about how the democracy of the new world is about to collapse and the iran was going to have a nuclear program. that did a lot to prevent a stipulated iran to have 20 reactors. contrary to the claims of this regime and the united states was not in full agreement of the shah and the nature of the nuclear program. in fact it was much tougher diplomatic behind the scenes and the u.s. of the nuclear program and the u.s. believed then that the shah might be going towards a potentially military nuclear program. and they did everything they could behind the scenes to try to give the assurances from the shah that this did not happen. the shah wouldn't give a categorical assurance. he would say we do not want yet. only by the late 77, 78 was the carter administration willing to allow u.s. companies to sell iran nuclear parts and nuclear reactors. in the meantime europeans jumped and what they've done the last few years the jump in the market essentially and signed an agreement with iran to start the reactor in the city and that reactor was supposed to start in 1981 and khomeini's unilaterally decided that the program was garbage and was likely if the u.s. that's why they decided to have a nuclear program and the nuclear program on which the spend billions and bombed the place several times. by 1984 he changed his mind because in that war saddam hussein used chemical weapons against the soldiers and to their shame i think the international community and how the reagan administration who did essentially nothing to punish that down for his egregious crimes. the regime decided that its international agreements going to allow saddam hussein to use weapons of mass destruction against iraq and the most developed mass destruction and then they started the nuclear program but they did it this time secretly. they kept it from the international community. they kept it from everybody because they were worried that israel would do to the program what it had done to iraq had recently syria. by the time they learned of this program it was already a fairly difficult program. we can talk much more detail about this. we don't have time. i need to stop, and the short version of it is that many of the same problems that have existed between this regime and the international community existed between the shah and the international community. one difference with the shah is trying to solve them in the context of the npt and the access to international law and not in defiance of the international law. it is a remarkable sign of confidence leading to come something that is most discussed in any media and the program that iran could have had in 1981 and after billions, after economic losses that are remarkably more and the mind can configure because this regimes incompetence. first of the decision to start the program without any discussion and then decision to restart it secretly and then the decision to lobby and keep the freeway every step of the way creating the current impasse where there were isn't taken by the international community and international community is worried that with iran we would have with a nuclear or developing virtual capacity for the bomb which i think what they're trying to do and they are trying to do with the shah was trying to do to have everything in place to be able to go nuclear had a very short order. it's almost verbatim what shah told officials they said we don't want to bomb now that any of the neighbors come in a nuclear state we are and will be far behind. what particularly worried from 1959 about the possibility of an attack on iraq and it's fascinating to see how the changes in iraq and the rise of the new regime. let me start here and try to answer some of your questions. [applause] we have a number of questions that deal with the relationship with the shah and mossadegh put the relationship was with of the shah and mo second one was the clergy anxious to see more acidic overturned? >> this would take about a three minute response and i would hope you can bear with me. for those of you that might not remember him he was a member of parliament come he was a nationalist leader in 1951 he becomes a primm minister through the space process and one of his first steps is to nationalize iran's leal industry but was still been in the monopoly control of britain so even before he comes to part the united states begins to worry that there will be the nationalist uprising in iran on the issue because the agreement was so unfair to iran between the u.s. and britain with the u.s. and yet and attrition telling them given a little bit before something more serious happens. they don't understand how to deal with them literally. they are naive idealists and then mossadegh comes to power and the british first instinct was to try to attack iran, the truman administration held the lines then they tried to organize the coup against him. the push him to use extra power to end the military to overthrow and he said i want to this. we need to find a space process, we need to find a legal process, not in a critic process, the legal process. when the attack mossadegh and they eventually attack and he became the head of this very powerful nationalist movement. everybody lined up behind him. the middle class was behind him and the irony in her class became completely supportive of him and the clergy can support if of him because the thought that his cause fighting the nationalist cause. the clergy were divided into two camps. one was a very political clergy and begin eventually the speaker of the parliament and an ally, and much of the clergy were of the school but we called shia, it was a school of shiaism that the don't believe in seizing power and the didn't want to seize power but he was clearly supporting him in this fight. the shah had relations with mozzetta but behind the scenes they were at each other's throat and the disliked one another and they were trying to limit one another's power. the shah wouldn't oppose him legally but publicly. by others something had happened. the united states had by november 52 reached a conclusion that there is no deal that mossadegh was uncompromising and there is no deal that was set aside. he wants 100% and nothing less than 100% and the british were not going to give 100%. so, the united states begins to change its position until november essential piece of timber they were against overthrowing mossadegh. after 52 they began to get convinced. they decided they needed to go against mossadegh is the increasing rise of the communist party and iraq. some have said that turning point came in june in the 1953 where the party organized the demonstration and brought out 100,000 people and remarkable discipline to iraq and of americans and mossadegh was becoming increasingly isolated on the economic hardship and because of a given the economic hardships of the clergy began to worry mossadegh depended too much on the communists and they were worried that iran might go. now the british and the cia we know when this period had a very sophisticated program where they would send to pretend like they are communists and attack the clergy from the radical communist perspective. they wanted to tighten the clergy even more and it worked. the were themselves worried and further contributed. further adding to the risk the third and the isolation was an extremely arrogant aggressive leader and he felt the state and power basically because the support and took the legislation he began to demand the right to appoint ministers and began to demand the implementation of the islamic mall and began to demand and he basically said no to all of them. he changed his mind and changed his side. he decided to now work with his critics. all of the fastest worked hand-in-hand and made them a much more isolated figure. in the elections that he himself had organized the result of the election were not very much to his liking and he stopped the election halfway and decide to have a referendum to dismiss the president. many of the staunchest allies told him first of all he's no constitutional basis for this. second and more importantly to dismiss the parliament the shah has the right to recess appointments, he's made many appointments he would make another one dismissing you and another one appointing and literally he says he doesn't have the guts. the shah believed that is holding the parliament as mossadegh had dundee's the constitutional right to make the appointment. so one was appointing zardari as the replacement and the other dismissing mossadegh he had with an unarmed abiding by the order interested and the shah believe he was not seriously engaged in the regime change and he fled the country, went to iraq, went to rome and began to plan for the life as a gentleman in connecticut but then on august august 19th the tide changed. august 19th the crowds began to gather and attacked his house and the radio and took over. where the crounse by the cia has to claim or were the genuinely angry and worried anti-communist members of the middle class has the supporters claimed, or is it a combination? mine research, everything i've done, and i wrote the chapter on the last because the was the most difficult for me to write my conclusion is that it is a combination of all of these factors. the cia was involved but at much less of a role the and if leader claimed and it claimed that it was the only force that played this role because it had had the series of defeats. this was the only major success they had in the legacy of ashes and he will see how many they had before this. >> that was interesting anyway. so there's a number of questions here also to leave for work a little bit in time regarding iran's nuclear program, the weapon's development and so-called peaceful development activity and did you come across the documentation that they have given proof one way or another what they are planning to do, and to broaden the question a little bit is what should the united states be doing? are we handling this correct? should we leave the options on the table to leave the popular phrase or not? >> let me begin with the easiest which is the last one. i don't think iran's nuclear program has a military solution. i feel that it's too far developed and dispersed. the innocent lives that it would be collateral damage is simply too great and without the u.n. mandate and the decision for the united states for israel to once attacked the country for the united states unilaterally i think is the fiasco, and i don't think that will be made successful in this attempt to delete this program. they have now learned how to deal with the centrifuges and they've learned how to enrich uranium and they've built these facilities under 25 feet of cement and it's been heavily fortified. there are three centers for the uranium and each the size of six football fields and they have the capacity to have centrifuge cascades of 50,000. nobody in their right mind believes the country once a peaceful nuclear program when it builds the cascade of 50,000. you just don't need 50,000 if you are going to enrich uranium 2%. for the enriched uranium 5,000 is enough. 50,000 would give you 90% enriched uranium which has only one use. i think the regime clearly in my view unambiguously has been trying to become what is called a blatant or the virtual nuclear states that this have the capacity established known capacity to build the bomb in short order and as the nuclear state. another words to what the world to know they can be a short walk away from the bomb and they are working on ways to deliver and designs and every aspect of this except i think the decision to take the last final step which is to recognize the uranium. the the united states i think next several billion strategically important errors. in 2003, when the u.s. just defeated saddam hussein, the u.s. just defeated within days and army iran haven't been able to defeat in eight years the clerical regime in iran was worried that the united states might attack. the neocons in washington were singing the song that boy is good to that and then go to tehran. this had reached to iran as well. iran at that time was very much willing to negotiate. it had to spend its enrichment on those temporarily and it sounds like it was a very weak position that the united states now have almost before whatever you want to call it, the uprising, the symbol war, the statement, whatever you want to call what happened in iraq that's before it began. the have almost 250,000 forces on iran's borders. they have easily defeated two of the biggest challenges and the regime was worried. and they were willing to make a deal and the bush administration decided they were not want to negotiate and i think there was the very important opportunity. now, the bush administration i think has been overly criticized and some people think the regime was willing to give up everything in this period and willing to recognize israel and give up the program altogether. it was willing to give up the support for hezbollah and the promise they would be treated well i think that is a bogus argument. i don't think that argument was ever -- the deal was ever on the table but they were in much more negotiating with xin and now they feel like the achieved the upper hand. it used to be the privacy of the united states not to negotiate with iran but if there's one centrifuge there are now 8,000 centrifuges in the united states and the international community is willing to negotiate. so, tactically the regime -- strategically the have bundled up because as i said, something that iran could have in 1981 and still do not have come and in all of the bonding of the material in the black market nobody knows whether it is going to be safe. >> well, i hate to do this, but we have run out of time, and perhaps he will be willing to stay around longer while he's signing books to answer additional questions. so, just going to ask one final one. as you know, i was in iran last year for a very short visit and found the people to be very friendly on the streets. we didn't really interact with any government people, so i was a characteristic i would give. one of the questions here has to do with two pieces of it, but halted the armenian people react on 9/11? there's a short answer to that and also, are you able to return to the country again? >> i can return if i accept it would be a one-way trip. [laughter] if the idea is a two-way aaa can't. they have named me and have named stanford as co-conspirators against the regime in that indictment and it's an article in the new republic, but as far as i know they are the only country where the people spontaneously to to the streets, light a candle and organize the vigils in memory of and support of the americans, the united states is very much popular and there is indeed a these wikileaks interesting documents. the u.s. badminton team was supposed to visit iraq and the last met he closed the plug on it, and the explanation was the united states wasn't supposed to announce the team's traveling to iran and when the united states announced that khomeini pulled the plug because he said there would be such a strong show of support for the american team that would be propaganda bonanza. when the u.s. counseling team went to iran and played in the international tournament the iranians showed more support for the u.s. team the and the home team and that became an incredible blunders and for the regime. and he says we don't want another wrestling fiasco. that is how popular the u.s. is. .. that highlights the parallels or analogies between the two tragedies. in other words, if you read and by his book he would get two for one, as to spare education as well as learn a lot about a run. thank you very much. [applause] [i c-span2. now, the book "wild bill donovan," the spymaster who created the zero ss and modern american espionage. the book's author is a former time and newsweek correspondent douglas waller his book at the international by museum in february. >> i am glad that they have the photo of donovan happier. this is really kind of an iconic portrait shot. you see that when you get to the oss society meetings. this is the one most commonly identified. there is a funny story behind it. you will notice that he has his hair cut very short. actually a crewcut. he was out in the field most of the time when he was running the oss. he liked to go in on allied landings. very often he would have the ships barber or the military barber give him a crewcut before he went out. of course when he got back to headquarters he would get teased by the headquarters staff. in fact, on his personal staff, wallace would say, that is some hair cut you have. donovan would laugh. he loved it and done a lot of these hair cuts because he lives out in the field of what. the book "wild bill donovan," is really three stories. it is a biography of the truly heroic figure who suffered a lot of personal tragedy in his life. it is a spy story. a lot of accounts of very daring operations that were conducted. and as peter mentioned, it is also a story of political intrigue. political intrigue at the highest levels of government in washington and also overseas. that part of it was the one that probably interested me the most. the personal story on donovan is a very rich one. i would have actually love to have been a reporter back then covering donovan. in fact, probably would have. donovan like reporters. he leaked to them very frequently, had reporters on his staff. when he went overseas, particularly before he joined were formed beat oss he would work sometimes part-time as a reporter. he was an interesting man, probably about this high. when he ran the oss in the 60's the female agents, some of them thought he was kind of thing when shaped. some of them actually even mentioned it to him. the kind of laughed and kind of didn't. he slept five hours or less a night, could speed read at least three books a week, was an excellent ball room dancer, loved to sing irish songs, would go by of sheet music of broadway musicals so that he could memorize the words. he did not smoke, rarely drank, enjoyed fine dining, but unfortunately that put on the weight. he spent lavishly with no concept for the dollar. whenever he was out traveling he always had an aide within and would give money. always bitching of his aide. he never showed anger. instead he let it boil inside and. he was recklessly handsome as a young man. even into a senior year he had bright blue eyes that women found captivating. his life was also filled with personal tragedy. his daughter, his daughter-in-law, and a granddaughter all died at very early ages. he busboy new year's day 1883 in buffalo, new york port irish first award. he thought at one point he was going to be a catholic priest, but then he decided he billy wasn't cut out for the cloth. he went to columbia university, was a quarterback of the columbia football team his senior year and then went on to columbia law school. franklin roosevelt incidently was a classmate. the two never makes. reza was from a much higher social strata. they never really talk to each other in law school. he returned to buffalo, became a successful lawyer, married into protestant welfare. in world war one he won the medal of honor for heroism in combat. he was absolutely fearless and combat. his chaplain said that donovan's -- donovan was one of the few guys he meant that into a combat. he commanded a battalion in the 609th irish regiment, of very famous irish city regiment. when he won the medal of honor he was the executive officer and the ground commander. that is also where he got the nickname wild bill. before the u.s. entered into the boar and donovan had his troops in europe turning him he put him through absolutely grueling, brutal training. at one time after a long march and running all that with full packs and crawling through obstacle courses his men collapse took in front of him. he got up and said, well, what is the matter with you. i have been running this same course and i haven't broken a sweat. out of the back somewhere some troopers he held out, we're not as wild as you are, bill. from that day on "wild bill donovan" stock. he claimed to be upset with the nickname, that it ran counter to his professional, cool, quiet image. his wife knew that he really liked it. he returned to new york hero. in 1932 he ran as a republican candidate for governor of new york. he was running against lt. governor herbert lehman who was roosevelt the tenant governor. of course roosevelt made his first run for the presidency. donovan's ultimate goal was to be the country's first irish catholic president. new york was the ideal stepping stone for a launch for the presidency. he ended up running as much against fdr as he did against herbert lemon. said some very nasty things. he was a dyed in double republican and felt the whole new deal idea was crazy. at one point he called roosevelt crafty. back then that was fighting words. for another campaign stop he called him a hyde park faker. roosevelt claimed that he was a gentleman farmer at hyde park. donovan felt that was ridiculous roosevelt on the other hand took a shot at donovan. he answered it by kim on the campaign trail. even eleanor roosevelt went ag and campaigned for laymen and took shots a donovan. donovan actually turned out to be zero horrible campaigner. if he was in this from talking to you he would totally mesmerized with those bright blue eyes and that charismatic personality. on the campaign trail before a large group he was totally wooden, a terrible speaker. in fact, his the tinned governor, the one running with him on the republican ticket thought he was so lousy that davison thought he should have run for governor. it is amazing that rose above later made donovan his spymaster considering all the nasty things they said about each other in the campaign. but fast-forward to 1940-41. roosevelt is preparing the country for war. he is building up defenses. he knows he has to mobilize the country for what is coming down in the future. donovan is a member of really the international wing of the republican party. he too believed that the country needed to mobilize for war. needed to build up defenses and prepare. roosevelt also was beginning to think about forming a coalition cabinet much the way winston churchill did in london. he was bringing in republicans. both men found each other useful in 1940 and 41 roosevelt said donovan on to an official trip to europe. the first one in 1940 was to england, basically to assess whether britain could survive the war, whether the nazis would defeat him or whether they would ultimately come out a winner. donovan came back and reported that britain could survive the war, but it would need u.s. arms and aid, in particular lindley's. the second time he went over in late 1940-early 41 he had a long meeting with winston churchill. at churchill's behest he took a tour of eastern europe and the balkans in the middle east. basically to deliver. he was on an unofficial basis. but deliver the message that fdr did not intend to let great britain this this war. and so if you are deciding which side you're going to be on you better be on the winning side, and that the winning side is going to be the allies. churchill was delighted with that message. in fact, he paid for his trip. in fact, at one point he had an escort escort donovan around. the latter became the james bond novelist. at the state department was probably upset about the trip. here was donovan going around to its embassies and foreign posts meeting with foreign leaders with no diplomatic standing either in the united states government with the british government. at one. the state department aides debated internally whether he should be prosecuted for violating the logan act which makes it a crime for a private u.s. citizens to represent the u.s. government for negotiations. fdr on the other hand was delighted that donovan was out there delivering this message and, you know, bringing back intelligence. in 1940-41 he really had no -- this is the president, really no foreign intelligence service to speak up. small units in the army and navy, but there wasn't really a lot of officers there, and many of the officers, it was considered a dumping ground for poor performers in the intelligence units. roosevelt was making a major foreign policy decisions at this time, decisions that could affect his own reelection such as wind these operating nearly blind to what lay ahead of him overseas. it worried him. in fact, it worried him have so much that at times he became physically ill. when donovan comes back from these diplomatic missions and that is when our spy story begins. in july 1941 before pearl harbor roosevelt signed an executive order, very short executive order about two pages, very vague, it said that colonel donovan because he had been a colonel in world war one will collect information for me of national importance. he will do other unspecified duties. this was setting up an organization called the coordinator of information that later became the office of strategic services to be in fact, initially it was the coordinator of the information to read it was such of the order that roosevelts of the cabinet officers started scratching their head. what is this guy up to? what are you getting into? he had to send out a follow-up memos to explain exactly what this coordinator of information business was all about. donovan liked to say that he began his unit as oss from minus zero. in effect he really only started out with one guy which was "wild bill donovan." in the beginning he was kind of like a player in a pickup basketball game looking for agents or operations or covers wherever he could find it. for example, the phillips lamp company sold plants overseas. donovan made an arrangement with the phillips lamp company salesman. when the ban on overseas calls, particularly in occupied countries, if they ran across anything of interest they reported back. the eastman kodak company, in my day it used to be a brownie camera. i guess they have the disposable cameras now. in donovan state they had thousands of camera clubs all over the united states. donovan and arranged for eastman kodak to send him those that members had taken overseas of possibly militarily important sites. pan american airways, pan am. donovan signed secret contracts with some of its employees. ticket agents and africa to be on the lookout and provide him any information have-nots is moving around in africa. the operation was code-named cigar. i've been kicked up all kinds of wild schemes. he was interested in any idea no matter how crazy it was. he was really willing to try almost anything. his code number on all the oss documents, the secret documents was 109 which was is from number in his headquarters. the headquarters was located on ag held just across from what now is the state department. his secretaries have their own code name. they used to call and see biscuit after the resource because they always saw him running around. they could never keep track of him. he kept $2,000 in a desk drawer in his desk that he used to pay any sources. he was constantly darting around washington on secret rendezvous to be only his chauffeur knew where he was. his of r and d chief, research and development chief, a guy named stanley level was a very well-known inventor, the inventor. he dreamed up all kinds of spy gadgets, the spy gadgets, miniature cameras, pistols with silencers, pencil like explosive devices. one idea that they were really high on were tree trunks. and so they decided to experiment on a mafia thug, a guy named little augie who was a new york low-level mobster. one of donovan's officers who had been of former new york city cop had him up to his apartment for smokes in the chat. placed in the cigarette was this trip toward chemical. and so he starts puffing away and laughing and having a silly grin on his face. eventually he starts telling the oss officer about the mob it to carry out, working with lecky the gian know and all of the congressman he had bribed. unfortunately donovan could not use any of it in court. the secrets were secure with the oss because they did not want to have it out that there were testing a tree truck. he proposed at one point that roosevelts have a button at his desk that he could push it any time that would transmit a radio message to every radio in the united states warning them if the japanese are going to attack where the germans were going to attack the york. roosevelt ignored the idea, but roosevelt enjoyed listening to all of donovan's ideas. he was really open to it. donovan was a spark plug for thinking of the box. roosevelt from his early days as a young man was always intrigued with espionage and spying. in fact, donovan thought he was a real spy above all along. for example, one of the ideas, sitting baths in the use of houses with incendiary devices. they thought they would drop the bats over tokyo. the bats would fly into the use of the paper and wood houses. the incendiary device would go off and burn down the houses in tokyo. this was an idea that eleanor roosevelt picked up from somebody, passed on to franklin, and he passed it on to donovan. so stanley and his men got out there over some desert and dropped -- fitted these bats with an incendiary device and drop them out of the plane. the port things sound like a stone. the idea did not work. donovan was willing to try anything. in addition to being the father of american -- modern american espionage and also special operations, there are portraits of donovan. one of his uniforms. they consider him the father of special operations. donovan was also the father of information warfare as we see it today, psychological operations. back in his day they called it morale operations. the technology was fairly crude consisting mainly of leaflets, rumors, newspaper articles and radio. so, for example, he had after three officers plant rumors in papers in the u.s. and the new york times and overseas that top nazis were fleeing germany for south america and leaving the germans' high and dry. marlene dietrich, of very, very famous singer sang for a lot of the radio propaganda broadcasts that donovan broadcast into germany. there were, for example, the league of lonely women leaflets that were dropped off at german soldiers which said that their wives and girlfriends back, had joined the league of lonely women and were having sex with their comrades who were returning back from leave. another idea they had that they tried out was they dropped fake mail bags over germany that were stuffed with poison pen letters. the addresses the gap for the letters from german phone directories and other city directories. they hoped that the german citizens would pick them up, pick up the mail bag, figure it was lost and give it to a german toastmaster and deliver all the mail. stanley even concocted one idea or concocted a hormone that if they could ever get to have as vegetables they would inject the hormone in his vegetables and it would make his mustache falloff and he would have a full set of voice which would clearly be a bummer. [laughter] donovan also turned out to be a horrible manager. during his four years commanding the oss he probably violated every rule they teach you in harvard business school or public of ministration school, totally disorganized. in fact -- and at one. a circle of his inner aides, a half-dozen of them staged what was called or tried to stage the palace revolt which was they tried to help stem. they tried to the sea if they could move him up and out as kind of a broad overseer of the organization. donovan were donovan's aids would actually run the day-to-day intelligence. donovan wants to enough coos to small one on his own. he squashed the palace revolt like a bug. even so he was a charismatic leader. that was really what built the oss and really defined his tenure. when he went out into the field he rarely gave a command. he would ask somebody to do something and the agents with loyally follow him. eventually he built a spy organization into over 10,000 as peanuts agents, commandos, intelligence analysts, support people in stations all over the world which is a pretty remarkable achievement considering that he started out with one guy which was "wild bill donovan." he mounted covert operations for the torch invasion, the invasion of north africa in november november 1942. he was fairly successful in the battlefield or beach intelligence that he provided to eisenhower's forces. he was far less successful in organizing the french to cooperate with the invaders coming in. he basically failed in that endeavor. the oss had significant operations in sicily and italy to read a lot of trouble in italy, a lot of failed operations. mark cox army had a lot of trouble in italy. that was a very brutal attrition battle. he had extensive operations in the balkans, oss operations to help organize and supply the resistance, particularly in yugoslavia and greece. in asia you had a oss operation did against the japanese in burma and china where. interestingly douglas macarthur and admiral chester nimitz would not have anything to do with jonathan. they prohibited his men from working in the pacific theater. for the normandy landing donovan had a huge intelligence operation providing a lot of good intelligence on german defenses, a lot of the intelligence for bombing targets and they infiltrated by air, parachuted in a number of commandos, oh jeez, operational group commandoes and jeopardize. they helped organize the french resistance in advance and during the normandy landing. donovan also had a penchant for going in on landings. he went in on the italian landings and the sicilian landings. he also went in on the normandy landing. george marshall, the army chief of staff thought he had donovan banned from going into normandy because and for very good reason, even donovan's on men thought that being that close to the combat was not the place for the chief of the american strategic intelligence service to the. marshall and eisenhower realized that if donovan were captured by the access he would be a very valuable target with all the secrets in his head. but they were not able to stop wild bill. he managed to talk his way aboard a navy cruiser and landed the second day at utah beach for the normandy landing. he had a grand time, almost got shot up. he marched inland with david bruce when they got pinned down at one. by a german machine-gun nest. had some grand stories to tell. it took almost two years for donovan to build up his organization to really get into the fight. keep in mind, it also took the u.s. army almost two years to really get into world war two. they had to train their force and building up along the way. and it took awhile for his commando operations and spy operations to really become proficient. like all intelligence agencies bls has experienced its share of failures, some spectacular. for example, dobbin thought he had the silver bullet agent codenamed vessel who was planted inside the vatican in rome and was supplying him with transcripts of people conversations that pope pius was having with his on voice and other foreign on voice and with the japanese. turned out that vessel was an italian pornographer with a very vivid imagination and was very skilled at creating dialogue, completely suffered. not unlike when you fast forward to the run-up to the second rock war with the cia thought it had a silver bullet intelligence agent in curveball that was supplying them with information about saddam hussein's biological weapon capability. turned out curveball was a fabricator. in fact, he just recently was interviewed by the british press. made it all up. but as the u.s. army improved donovan's os has improved as well. toward the end of the war was implying a significant amount of intelligence to the allies. but as i say, this is a story of political intrigue. donovan likes to say he had enemies in washington as fierce as it was in europe. ferocious battles with j. edgar hoover without his organization was just a collection of amateurs which actually in the beginning it was. the pentagon that first bitterly fought the formation of the zero ss and launched a guerrilla operation against it, practically throughout the war. in fact, he toured as the war matured for the u.s. toward the end, the pentagon formed a secret espionage unit behind donovan's back. marks doubt is doing groundbreaking work on that research. the unit was nicknamed the pawn. it was not only spying on the axis, it was also spying on donovan's men and donovan himself. the generals and admirals in the pentagon, you know, they fight among themselves in any war and certainly did in world war ii. the british and american senior officers were constantly squabbling. the squabbles with donovan were even more intense because for many of them they just didn't understand what this covers doing. when he talked about morale operations were seven ties and espionage and the of monday women leaflet's he was in some respects talking a foreign language. they found a lot of his ideas disturbing, and they found him disturbing. donovan also had a penchant for never taking no for an answer. he was famous for making in runs around the commander if he got a note from them to get the decision reversed from higher up for example, when the commander of the navy told him i can lend you any naval officers, donovan went to frank knox, the secretary of the navy and had frank knox called the admiral to pressure him to turn over the men. that kind of action does not when you a lot of friends in the senior ranks of the pentagon. one time he was at a cocktail party and he had his ls as officers burble the emeralds office and steel papers, bring it back to him at the cocktail party said that he could show off to the admiral what is meant to do. .. but when he was out in the field, with this man, he could be what one of his agent said ichord chablis civilian. his uniform would always be rumpled and his fatigues like what you see here. sometimes he would wear a paisley ascot with his uniform too. i don't think they let them do that nowadays, do they? but i think what the message donovan was trying to convey to anybody out in the field that he was running an unconventional operation and he was an unconventional guy. for the allies, there was tension there as well. the british played a critical part in helping donovan form his oss. it even throughout the war very often the british intelligence sharing with donovan's oss was much greater and more deep than his intelligence sharing with his own u.s. army. even so he had fierce fights with the british intelligence special operations over turf in where they were going to spy overseas. he launched spy operations against churchill to find out what he was up to. if you read a british record, they launched spy operations and kept tabs on donovan to make sure they knew what he was up to. in china, rather allied shanghai check donovan said the paper, funded it through a publisher. he planted his agents in there to serve as reporters but also to file intelligence reports on the side not only on what the japanese were doing in china but also what chiang kai check was doing in china. the soviets were our allies in world war ii. donovan at one point paid the intelligence service $62,500 for 1500 pages of soviet à la terry and kgb documents which included kgb codes. the state department when they learned about it were horrified over this because it caused a huge diplomatic flack and he complained to roosevelt when he ordered donovan to turn the code back over to the soviets. in fact donovan had the men take a two on trade who didn't for new york minute that his men had copied the code and knew it already. not only actually had donovan then copy the code the enterprising fans sold the codes to the japanese for a think about 70,000 bucks. free enterprise lives alive and well. eventually, donovan could not overcome his political enemies. he had drafted a plan for post-war central intelligence agency, a post-war cia that he wanted to lead but walter chiaro hand he who was a white house reporter for the mccormick patterson chain which was very avidly anti-roosevelt a republican chain which published the "washington times" herald in washington got a copy of donovan's secret plan for setting up the cia and published in the paper in a highly inflammatory story. he accused donovan of wanting to set up what amounted to an american gestapo to spy on not only people overseas by the americans at home. you call somebody a gestapo during world war ii and those are very incendiary words. j. edgar hoover had an agent spread a particularly nasty rumor with harry truman staff that eventually got to truman about donovan's personal life. i will let you read a book to find out what that is, but donovan had a number of affairs, had a number of extramarital affairs and it was well-known in washington and out in the field that he had. at one point, remember the secret pentagon espionage unit, are ranged through an officer who was on the white house staff under roosevelt and then under truman that a 59 page report was placed on donovan -- i mean on truman's desk accusing the oss of all kinds of misdeeds, corruption, loan operations. they even accused him of the staging an in india at one point. truman also didn't like donovan personally. there was bad chemistry between these two guys. on one side you had a successful republican wall street lawyer. on the other side you have a haberdasher who was a die hard democrat. these two guys were never going to match up. truman wanted an intelligence service. he knew he needed a national strategic intelligence service particularly after the war. he. existed in one donovan heading it up for the oss having anything to do with it so on september 20, 1945 be he shut down the oss. parcel that is seen into the pentagon and the state department. chairman eventually formed as i'm sure all of you know a cia in 1947. modeled a good bet after donovan's vision of what the cia should be. donovan wanted to leave that agency. in fact he had intermediaries quietly lobbying truman to see if he could be the head of the cia. ofof course chairman wasn't goig to have anything to do with that. donna that had said mean things about truman on the presidential campaign trail. when dwight eisenhower came in he had surrogate lobby again to make him head of cia. instead eisenhower gave the job to allen dulles which let donovan very bitter even though dulles had worked for donovan heading up his oss station. donovan ali stop the dulles was a poor manager and that he would have been better at the cia director. instead eisenhower made donovan ambassador of thailand i will be glad to field them. >> frank fletcher. is a true that donovan handed over tob and k.b hand over to soviet intelligence a use of agents of oss in eastern europe? >> i am not sure -- well it is a little complicated. donovan proposed in the winter of 1943 to set up a liaison arrangement with the and kgb and he flew to moscow to try to set that up. he thought he had roosevelt on board with it, the joint chiefs were pretty much on board with it, and they actually got something set up with powell fitton who was head of the kgb them. they were going to exchange officers and there was going to be a soviet group coming to washington and an oss group come to moscow. both spy chiefs new that these groups would be spying on the other. this was donovan's opportunity to get into the soviet union with his agents in moscow. and also to get material from the soviets. when j. edgar hoover heard about this plan he went bananas and lobbying roosevelt not to allow the soviet officers and not to have this exchange program. in hoover's view he had his hands full already. keeping an eye on the soviets that were here already in the united states spying. so the plan got nick's. even so donovan had fairly robust exchange of information with the nk -- nkgb throughout 1943 on. they exchange a lot of intelligence. donovan supplied some gadgets to the soviets which they appreciated and they supplied information on some of the activities of what they knew was happening particularly in eastern europe. as the war was drawing to an and, and you know the russians were coming in and occupying eastern european nations, i believe at some point there, dole told hold me to it, they wanted to know who were the oss officers that were in the country then, because they actually were still working together trying to round up nazi holdovers. this was towards the end of the war. so they exchange information on that. eventually though they russians knew that they had the oss officers that would be spying on them as much as working with them and they forced them all out of the nations. there was a brief exchange of information. >> to the british air any of the details about the enigma operation with donovan? >> yes. they shared -- donovan had men and women at leslie park working with the british and they got access to the raw take. in fact the british were very very important in helping donovan set up his counterintelligence operations called x2. and it is ironic that they actually shared more of their intercept work than the americans did with donovan. donovan never had direct access to magic. magic was the navy army code breaking capability of the japanese diplomatic and military codes. all he would get -- could get from magic were summaries of their reports. marshall didn't trust donovan's organization to keep a secret. they thought he was loose on security. but in the case of the brits, they got direct access and were in very close cooperation. >> where do you see yourself differing from the two previous biographers of donovan? >> there are actually three biographies. the first one was ridden by cory ford on donovan. he was screened by the donovan family and the donovan leisure law firm wrote a hagiographic portrait of donovan. that is a law firm edited at the and. anthony cave brown wrote the last hero and he had access to the original donovan microfilmed that he occasionally took of his files in this office and carted off to new york. he didn't have access to a lot of the newer material that has come out and there was a lot of speculation in cave brown's look on things that donovan did did that when you look at the record it turns out it didn't happen. the other book was richard dunlop who wrote a biography of donovan around the same time in the early '80s based largely on anecdotes or reminiscences a former oss officers. as any historian or biographer will tell you, anecdotes are really very helpful in bringing light to your story but memories fade after 10, 20, 30, 40 or so there were institutes in his book too that they have donovan in different places. i called them elvis sightings when i was doing the research, where he really you know he wasn't there. he wasn't doing what they thought he did or maybe somebody recalled vaguely. what i tried to do was a police base it on the record and use the anecdote that lot of oral histories out there for oss officers --. >> what was the extent of communist penetration of oss? >> they have done a lot of studies on that and i don't have the numbers in my head that it is in the book. there were at least like a half dozen in the oss headquarters who were believed to have either communist sympathies or repeating information to soviet intelligence. there were breaches and penetrations in stations all around the world. the cia does a good analysis of that. donovan knew he had communists in his organization. he actually had a complicated relationship with the communist. he wanted to work with them but he didn't necessarily want them working for him. so, he would set up a relationship with the communists in the u.s., the communist party in the u.s., and with communists overseas but he could be very very harsh on communists he found in his organization particularly if they were being investigated by congress or the name popped up there or j. edgar hoover found out about it, so he could be very harsh there but he recognized even until the end even though he never said it publicly that there were probably, i think i have it in the book, about 40 people in this organization that he thought were communists leading or whatever but there was never any evidence of that communist infiltration did anything really to change the outcome of the war in any which way because we were allies with the soviets. so, and they have done and set -- assessments. didn't have a huge effect and just giving the soviets information about the oss was doing. donovan tried to plant his own people in the nkgb particularly as they moved into eastern europe and even as he was trying to set up a liaison with the nk -- nkgb. he had made arrangements with oil executives going over under a lease to help the russians with oil exploration to report to him on anything they saw over their too. >> to donovan and the oss have any relationship with the efforts with the nazis and the atom bomb? did donovan and the oss have any relationships with the effort to -- the nazis of the atom bomb? >> oh yeah. they had a project, moe berg who was a former catcher, major league catcher was involved in that. leslie groves who was the general in charge of the manhattan project had gone to donovan. never told him in detail or never told them anything really about the manhattan project itself but he asked donovan to have his officers go out and scour anything they could find on german and italian scientific efforts to develop a nuclear device. and they collected a lot of information for leslie groves and i think they'll suspected the reason they were collecting it was because the u.s. was unveiling its own nuclear weapon. and basically they came back with a conclusion that the germans in particular were far behind in their nuclear weapons development. >> i read a review of your book that mentioned, very favorable one in "the wall street journal," but it tension that donovan was sort of an early opponent of nazism and i wondered if you could just explain a bit about that? >> yeah. he made a lot of trips overseas basically is an international lawyer drumming up business for his law firm or representing clients overseas. this is in the 20s and the 30s. j. edgar hoover thought he was a nazi sympathizer. he collected a lot of information and made a lot of contacts in berlin, some of which proved useful much later during the war but this was mainly in gathering business information and also in protecting his clients in germany as the nazis took over. so, he representative companies from major jewish families to try and prevent the nazis from ex-appropriating their property or their businesses. he signed a petition to i think you know prevent the prosecution of german jewish in court so he was very active on that, and having he had no illusions about what the nazis were about. he viewed hitler, and he told friends that this was the incarnation of evil and he was really in no fascinated by hitler throughout the war. in fact at one point he had a team of psychologists and psychiatrists do a very extensive psychological profile of hitler which i think is actually fairly good. it was fascinating and they predicted among other things that hitler would likely never surrender that he would hole up and fight it out and commit suicide at the end. they also had a good bit of information on hitler's sex life too and donovan have that spiced up and sent out as propaganda later on. he thought that would be a good topic and a tool. >> there is a biographer i know that there remains questions. is there anything about donovan you are still questioning or you don't feel you know everything about? >> yeah there are and he didn't didn't -- it's interesting. he never wanted to write an autobiography of himself. there were several publishers who approached him toward the end of the war asking if he'd be interested and he didn't want to do that. he was very particular about the oss history and how that would be told and he edited that, the final history, very carefully. there are still kind of questions about where he was at certain points in the war, that he really can't pin down. there've been a lot of rumors and some of the rumors i was able to discover that weren't true. for example there was a terrific rumor out there, a report on a previous biographies that donovan went into liberated france in a jeep with ernest hemingway and they went to the ritz hotel and had the bartender order up to dozen martinis for everybody. it was terrific anecdote. i was going to use it in the book until i found out it wasn't true. it was david russi went in with donovan into the ritz hotel. there was a lot of speculation and i don't know, that donovan had secret meetings with admiral kunar as the head of the german intelligence. i could find nothing in the oss records to indicate that was ever the case. there was one approach by one of donovan's officers to kunar that never came about. maybe there is something there that nobody is seeing but it would have probably turned up in the oss records. the good news about the oss records is that practically all of them are declassified. i don't think there's that much left classified now. the bad news is that all of them are declassified because millions and millions of pages over the national archives. just donovan's own personal papers in his office, over 100,000 pages which i had to go through which took a while. but yeah i am sure there is a mystery out there and i still have freedom of information act requests out there hoping to find it or the next edition. >> to questions. you touch on the world war ii but how much of that could have come from world war i because you hear the stories about german bean on artillery officer. the other one is georgeb strong who was the army chief too who was a j.a.g. officer and the movements officer for the u.s. and world war one. where some of this conflict could afcom from way back when. the other one and i know in your index you have -- you mention the colonel. do you touch on the 26 70/70 70 ss regiment that operated in north africa and the mediterranean because i know you mentioned the operations in greece which involved the only, as far as i know of, the only u.s. army unit to be sent from the army to the oss as a unit. it was the 122nd. >> yeah. on the first thing on the world war i connection, there has been a story out there that is repeated in a lot of books and you can find it on the internet that truman was supposed to supply artillery cover for the battle in st. george. donovan wanted his medal of honor and got shot in the leg and that truman didn't and donovan complained later on and truman heard about it and never forgot it. it turns out it was an old wives tale. truman was not there that day and was not supplying artillery cover but for some reason this got repeated andy gets mentioned kind of tangentially in anthony cave brown's but i went throughout the records at the truman library, all the world war i records to peace where truman was and where donovan was and they weren't together during that battle. the george strong, george v. strong who was head of army g to intelligence section was one of donovan's most implacable enemies. he is known as george the fifth because he was kind of an imperious mandoki was actually a warrior scholar, that very learned person but he actually despise donovan and ought him the whole time. donovan hated george the fifth too and i think that animosity build up the minute the oss was formed. i don't know how much there was any world war i connection. as far as colonel eddie, colonel eddie who headed up a lot of his covert action, covert warfare operations leading up to the torch invasion, he was a world war i hero, got his leg shot off and had ribbons. in fact when he met george patton, patent todd boyd this guy must be one tough son of a gun. i think patton used a little bit of a different word. it looks like he had been shot at quite a bit. and eddie had a real good operation or donovan. again they were not able to deliver on their hope and promise that they can organize the french to support. along with allied in america. >> and one of the other i mentioned 2677 the office of the oss had no effort and you find with the 2677 a sickened unit and the army actually was making use out of one piece of that it which kind of killed the effectiveness of the overall network. >> there could have been something at the tactical level. at the -- donovan wanted to replicate magic since you is denied access to it in fact be set up a dummy corporation called fpq to set it up and impact the leader of the secret spy unit, the military spy unit who was spying on donovan at one point had been working on are actually was headed up for donovan the fpq organization and donovan basically got rid of him, thought he was a conspiracy buff. marshall eventually shut down that ad hoc intercept unit because he didn't want anything conflicting with magic. >> we have one more in the back. >> why don't we take a couple more. >> hi, could you elaborate on the relationship or rivalry of donovan's british counterpart whose name i don't recall but he went by or was known as intrepid. >> oh stephenson. bill stephenson. they were very very close and stephenson was very very helpful for donovan and setting up the oss, provided him a lot of help in new york. donovan had tensor relationship with the british intelligence and charles tamburro who was head of british special operations, british so we. there were constant fights. basically what happened was donovan could not have formed his organization without british help that it was like kind of a teenager. want to learn to drive dads car you don't want dad sitting in your seat right next to you following you and your date which is what happen with the relationship between the british and the u.s.. the british would have referred to have the oss be basically subjects of the crown crown and work as auxiliaries for the british effort out there and their side of the story they had seasoned operatives for a long time and here were these american cowboys from the oss coming in and mucking up the works out there and getting in the way they thought. donovan knew that what the british wanted out of them. they knew they wanted him and his organization to be in british special operations intelligence and he thought that early on. in fact there was a famous line. he told a british special operations representative in new york at one point, he said i won't let me or my organization be novels by you. does anybody know what novel this? i didn't either until i looked it up in the dictionary. it is british slang for fixing it horse race to lose and he was worried that the braves were going to be novel and can. he also thought the british used his organization for their own purposes and would discard him when they do not need him. the brit tamburro heard the statements and didn't appreciate being called a horse fixer or a prostitute and so throughout the war there was that tension between the two, but donovan realized even at the end, at the very end that he couldn't have built up what he had without british help. >> in your research, did you get the feeling that roosevelt either did not discourage or actively and kurds the competition between donovan and military intelligence and solo players who volunteered at various times? >> yeah. roosevelt did not discourage competition. he liked the creative tension so if you talk or if you read the histories of roosevelt senior aides even harry hopkins even close people like steve really none of them really knew what roosevelt was up to with everything. feeca things he kept things compartmentalized and he played a zone for one another. donovan for example learned after he coordinator of information was formed that roosevelt had a secret spy unit in the white house and run by john franken carter who was a columnist in washington, a newspaper columnist. in fact he ran the secret spy unit while he was running columns all the time which kind of violates some press government rule. i am not sure what it is but it it's certainly violated it. roosevelt encouraged this tension between the two and every now and then he would he hang donovan's chain back or he led army intelligence george strong, general george strong do something that would absolutely enrage donovan. donovan had a very complicated relationship with roosevelt too because again they were from opposite parties. roosevelt senior staff was decidedly worried about what they thought was the republican cast to the oss and all the best in the brightest he brought in were the best and brightest from the republican party. you had henry stimson stimson the secretary of war, frank knox the secretary of navy and donovan as head of intelligence service and a lot of white house aides were thinking to themselves what are we doing here, running a farm team for future presidential candidates because donovan wanted to be president of the united states at one point. frank knox brand on the republican ticket. so the two men roosevelt like donovan and liked his ideas but it was not a personal relationship and donovan never really wanted to make it a personal relationship either. >> douglas wal

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