Charter has invested billions building infrastructure, upgrading technology, and powering opportunities in communities bignd small. Charter is connecting us. Good morning and welcome to the history biography stage at the library of Congress National book festival. I am mark sweeney the deputy laboring in congress the theme of the book festival brings us together so let me say how wonderful it is to see you all here together in person for the First Time Since we gathered here last in 2019. We are thrilled that cspan book tv viewers are also joining us, so welcome. [applause] cspan will be recording the events on stage. The stage has a long history of being one of the festivals most popular stages. Today you will be hearing from authors that go deeply into the role women play in the civil rights movement. The relationship with bald eagle a more completeag accounting of the mexicanco revolution and strange history behind the search for the nile river and many other topics. You learn a lot here at this stage and we hope that you will visit us to research about subjects youre interested in to experience the beauty of the Thomas Jefferson building or attend one of our Library Events most thursday nights we keep the Jefferson Building and all exhibits open until 8 p. M. And host dynamicam free events for e visitors. September 15th, Academy Awardwinning actress Francis Mcdormand and radio and podcast producers will join for conversation. Theres an upcoming series of plays the novelist will be talking about the new lessons. The first event of today today featuresthe undersecretars and culture the Smithsonian Institution in conversation with the twotime Pulitzer Prize winner David Marinus about his new biography of jim thorpe half lit by lightning. Sit back, enjoy and have a wonderful day of the library of Congress National book festival. Thank you. [applause] david, lets get right to it jim thorpe has done biography before. Why did you choose him as a subject related to your book . I think of this as the third book in the trilogy. First also represented the mythology of competition in excess of American Life and what it takes and what it costs. Also so many athletes are called heroes as very few are it seemed to me the third part of the trilogy in that he not only wasa a stunning athlete but also offered me the opportunity through his life to explore the native American Experience from 87 to his death in 53. Such critical years in the lives of all native americans. I want to say first im honored to have you be my interlocutor. So 1887 and 1953 were as you point out a very important in the history and you describe it in your book. I dont know how these things happen but its one of the crucial years in the government policy in that it was the passage of the dogs act which was an effort to take away the whole sense of property native americans had and send them on to small parcels of land that were even then taken away from them and over 25 years that they deserve to have the land. So, that was part of this long process of trying to turn indians into white people in different ways. In 1953 the less benign name of the policy was enacted. To terminate the reservation and that whole sense but luckily, that one didnt prevail. If i started reciting all the things i did notot d know, we wd be here until midnight. Black hawk. Yeah, i start the book with a parallel in between black hawk and a jim thorpe. They o are from the same clan ad its a little bit unclear whether he was a descendent but theres some indications that it was his grandmother. His mother often told him he was the reincarnation of black hawk. What i found fascinating is the way to explore how both of these famous men, native americans were treated by white society. In 1833 after the 1832 black hawk war so it was a massacre with about a thousand members over the mississippi into their homeland and the government traced them back and killed many of them. Interestingly, three future president s were involved in that action on the government side another fact that shocked me Abraham Lincoln of course was in the militia and Jefferson Davis worked under the president of the confederate states. Its the notion of indians being romanticized and diminished at the same time and i found that paralleling the to cincinnati and pittsburgh and washington, d. C. Was paralleled after the greatest moment being taken on to new york and philadelphia he wasnt a prisoner of war but of equally being romanticized. Path lit by lightning. Born in may of 1887. The story is there was a thunderstorm on the night and hes a twin which is something people dont realize. Charlie died at age nine at one of the boarding schools but anyway, the night they were born along the North Canadian River in oklahoma there was a thunderstorm. Jim thorpe was given which often is translated but i thought of a more poetic translation and l as soon as possible that i said that it illuminates everything and that is how i chose the title of my book. So, jim thorpe is like a great many native americans at that time in history is raised in a very difficult circumstance but eventually ends up at the Carlisle Industrial School. He kept running away from both of those and his father who had five wives and 18 children altogether and the wife he was t married to at that point she didnt want anything to do with him so went as far away as possible to carlisle, to the Carlisle Industrial School which was the flagship government school. It was founded in 18793 years after the battle of little big horn. Many of the indian wars in the centuryg and luther was one of those who later wrote a book about the experiences and said t he thought he was going east o die to show his bravery and diet. The model of that boarding school was kill the indians, save the man. There was the notion of the founder Richard Henry pratt who thought he was doing good. He thought he was saving the indians from the genocide of the past andnd the only way to surve was by being forcibly, thoroughly disseminated in thehe culture. It was a traumatic process for many that were sent there of that first group of the succeeding groups that came in the early years of that boarding school. Many of them literally died after school. The most haunting experience of my r research was going up to carlisle where much of the school is still there though its now the army war college. To look at those crosses and gravesites. Thats the school that about 8,000 young native americans over the course of the schools existence. It seems an auto place. It does. It wasnt really a college, it was an Industrial School yet it had a fabulous Football Team that played against the football powers of that era which wasnt alabama and lsu in oklahoma, it was harvard and princeton and yale and west point. But as part of the process that was this elite sport and that era would help the young native athletes even more, so they had a brilliant football coach, brilliant in football which we will get to taking these really great athletes and devising this system, one of the innovators of the past legalized in 1905 and all of these formations developed trick plays and i love the fact in that era of football, a sort of kangaroo pocket nobody knew where it was. Imagine this today where the lineup is by the sideline and they go around the opposition and come out the other side. That was the football of that era but yes carlisle was playing against the great teams of collegel football in the bureau and aiding them thoroughly. Including famously the team from west point. In november of 1912, the greatestst act of athletic retribution in american history. On the plane at west point before the stadium was built and it was against the army. It was a level Playing Field and it was jim thorpe and just a fabulous Carlisle Indian team. Omar bradley was on the bench and the indians 1276. Eisenhower and one of his teammates, football has always been a violent sport. Eisenhower would acknowledge they were plotting before the game started how to knock jim thorpe out of the game because he was the greatest in america. They did have one play where there was a collision and he was laid on the ground but got up, kept playing. That came just a few months after stockholm. How did jim thorpe end up at stockholm . He was the greatest allaround athlete so he was not only playing football for carlisle but wasir there a track star. The team was also dominant so much so jim thorpe who could compete with the motto of the olympics. Both of them competed in the tryouts to go to stockholm and they were selected and went over with their coach and jim thorpe dominated. Imagine competing in 17 events, which is what he did because at the event and the shorter version in the five events also competed and he won two gold medals during that period, during one period of the decathlon competition he couldnt find his shoes. The sort of mythology is that they were stolen. I couldnt document that. Anyway he misplaced it probably so he had to find some shoes to wear to compete in the high jump and they found a mismatched pair one was bigger than the other. They were having to wear two extra socks on one to make it work. At the end of the olympics, the sponsors of those olympics were handing out the medals and trophies and said you are the most wonderful athletes in the world to which thehe mythology s funny but its also a little bit condescending in a way. But he was the greatest at that point. You talk about some of the mythology. I heard growing up in oklahoma that for one track meet they arrived at the stadium and it was just warner and jim thorpe. In any case, its not true butt it might as well have been because they want all of these events. He was an incredibly innovative and brilliant coach. He became so famous that carlisle and then at stanford hes at the College Football hall of fame. When you study what he did at carlisle thats putting it mildly. There was a congressional investigation in 1914 about the school and among the many things that found was warner was betting on games and selling tickets in the lobbies and mentally and physically abusing his players that turned on him at that point and then at the critical moment of jim thorpes life after the medals were taken away. Talk a little bit more about that. Early in 1913 the not so secret fact that jim thorpe played, Minor League Baseball comes to play. They played in the Eastern Carolina league for two summers, 1909 and 1910. For about two bucks a game or 30 a month and scores of College Athletes were playing Minor League Baseball but using aliases so dwight eisenhower, they played in the Kansas State League underam wilson. The Eastern Carolina league where they played for the Rocky Mountain railroaders in so many it was called the pocahontas league because everyone was named john smith. Jim thorpe played under the name jim thorpe. He never tried to hide it. His name was in the papers. The several factors here, all of the powerfull figures who were involved in this knew what they were doing, starting with warner and sending athletes to play baseball for years and whose close associate in pennsylvania was a scout who brought jim and met with florida at least twice during the period jim was away from school playing baseball once they went hunting in oklahoma together you think he didnt ask why arent you at school right now. Anyway, after the story broke, it broke iny western massachusetts. In january of 1913 but a reporter heard one of the former managers was in town and talked about how they managed jim thorpe so a it became a big deal and got to new york. Warner was asked about it and deny it he knew anything about it. James b sullivan, the head of the amateur Athletic Union and the Olympic Committee and on the board of advisors, the athletic association, he lied about it to save his reputation. The superintendent at carlisle who the documents of letters they sent urging him not to play baseball lied and wrote the letter of confession. In it in the most condescending way he basically made the argument if he was just ignorant and didnt know any better. In all of those ways, he was disreputable and disappointing as were the others who basically just saw him as an easy target. The other aspects to the amateur part of it one is technical. In the olympic rules it said to have a challenge to someones amateurism it has to be filed within 30 days at the end of the olympics. The story in the western telegram broke six months afterwards, so its too late which sweden even said with sullivan and warner and everybody persisted in the committee and took the metals away. But its more reprehensible for the hypocrisy and also the whole notion was a sham. Another member of the 1912 olympic team was George S Patton the future general. He competed in a group of military events. Target shooting, fencing. On leave for six months before the olympics to train for the olympics but they are getting full pay for their jobs to do that. Is that amateurism or professionalism, so in so many ways jim thorpe was the victim of all of that. And that brings us to avery and again something i would never do, competing in the olympics was then the future president of the u. S. Olympic committee and the international Olympic Committee for decades. And i always envision him as a sort ofat fat cat plutocrat traveling the world and he will say dick athlete himself. A mediocre one, but he competed in the olympics against jim thorpe. He quit after the event and that is the beginning of that relationship that rose to power for decades thatat consistently denied the justice and refused to give back. After the olympics these days on the cover of the wheaties box youre making lots of money from endorsements, so did that happen for jim thorpe . Not quite. A baseball player today signs for 240 million. After he lost his amateur status signed to play baseball with the giants for 5,000. He later played professional football. Hes never able to make money the athletic, modern athletes do so that was always a struggle. But he was still worldfamous. One of the reasons he was assigned to play baseball for the New York Times was because at the endne of that 1913 season they were going to go on a world tour. Through japan and china and the philippines,pi australia, egypt and europe. On the tour, including the manager of the giants, the owner of the white sox but they knew one person jim thorpe so wherever they went everyone went to see jim thorpe and this came even after for the rest of his life. It never lost that admiration from the world. One of the things that struck me, i had no idea how vocal he was. He saw the world in 1913, all of those places. He saw it again in age 57. In world war ii he joined the merchant marines. He wanted to participate in world war ii. Of the four sons they were all involved in the military. He wanted to join them. Th the army wouldnt take him though he was great with rifles so he joined the merchant marines and went through the canal for the second time. In america after his athletic careerhl was over, he was constantly struggling to find footing. He took jobs ranging from at one point diggingg ditches in los angeles during the depression, serving as a greeter in bars and taverns to working for the chicago athletic Youth Association to the most interesting period when he was in los angeles on the fringes of the Hollywood Studio and was he an actor in about 70 movies. He was directed by john anne frank and was acting with all of the famous hollywood stars. But most importantly, it was in that period that he found his identity again as a leader of native americans and it really helped organize them to get the jobs and they were going to white people dressed with paint and said higher odds to become the spokesperson for that as well as fighting to get a sort of the stereotypes, the negative stereotypes in those movies removed. A phenomenon that isnt entirely. There was a lien in your book that really rang huge for me. You pointed out the duality of honoring his ancestry while performing as a white mans version of an indian. He certainly did at carlisle where they were the most popular team traveling. They didnt play at home, they played at all theid other place, so here you have these exotic indians playing against all these teams for a school trying to rid them and then in the professional ranks he played for two years. There was a team based in a small town in ohio and they would have to perform at halftime. Most, he and his teammates and colleagues all understood that dichotomy and they would play to it but understand what was going on and trying to take advantage of it in different ways without the white people knowing what they were doing. And that was always clear to people. O. Oh did Burt Lancaster and applying jim thorpe. [laughter] lexi is a movie star. Not an indian, right . He was 37 years old this was 1951 the movie was made called jim thorpee allamerican. It starred Burt Lancaster, it was directed better known for directing casablanca. In that era even today starting to happen its organically native american. In that era they played jim thorpe starting at age 18 for starters. But he wasa a good athlete ill given that. He could not do the polevault is too big the polevault would break. But he did a lot of the athletic parts of it himself and trained for it. It is a sympathetic movie. Many people i havepl talked to that one of two things for a read about him or i saw the movie. And that got me fascinated. But the movie itself, like most of biopics is completely wrong in every small respect. His big mountains in oklahoma among many, many other things. Its also wrong in one crucial respect. The narrator of the movie is pop warner previously white savior. Christ to shake jim out of his trauma. It was the notion that jim if only you would have two light society. You would not have had the problems later in life that youn had. It is just so wrong and i cannot get past that to see the other side of the movie which is sympathetic to him. Cracks pretty much every indian at the time who did not meet someone elses expectations. Although it did jim thorpes a body residing in a Mountain Valley . Rex is an unbelievable family. He died at 65 in california. He was living with this third wife then, pepsi thorpe. He had told his children he wanted to be buried in oklahoma in the region. It was the beginning very important spiritual ceremony and patsy thorpe interrupted and took his coffin away he was unhappy with how oklahoma was going to honor him. She eventually put him up to the highest bidder. Tried to get pittsburgh and philadelphia interested. Saw a report about these two small struggling coal towns in thewn pocono mountain east markt chunk pennsylvania. If you emerge and rename yourselves in jim thorpe of pennsylvania you can have him. He also said that only can you have him will have a college, a hospital, might open ftp style hotel up there. As a pro football hall of fame started there none of which happened. But they did change the name to jim thorpe pennsylvania. I think its the people there, it was not their fault. He does not belong there. Thats a nice little park on the side of the road. They said never set foot. Sunset filed suit based on the museum act ring and the artifacts back to where they belong. They won the First Federal court than the Appeals Court overturned it, the Supreme Court the Appeals Court. The legal part of it is over. Jim thorpe, pennsylvania is taking some of it fame from him being there. Theyre not going to give it back. It would take an act of real integrity and moral courage to be turned to where he belongs in oklahoma. I do not see it happening. Cracks not soon but one thing we know about native americans. They are patient for thoughts hope so absolutely. Jim thorpe continues to make news. Had nothing to do with it. But it was pretty good timing. Of the metals were taken away from him and then only last a month in july of this year were all of his records finally restored. After a Long Campaign for many, many people the international Olympic Committee, Robert Wheeler andnd his wife the earliest chroniclers. Many people in a lot of native american activists were fighting for this forever. And it finally happened. 110 years too late. The other way the story is in the news is in boarding schools. He of the pope going to canada only a few weeks ago to apologize for the ways the Catholic Church had handled indian boarding schools and the trauma of o that. The secretary of interior Deborah Holland to study both what happened in those schools that ensued from that. Cracks most of the boarding schools are now closed. And good riddance. Those that remain largely run by the tribes themselves. It is a fascinating legacy because there were as you point out, the failings were obvious. And yet the students found a way to persevere and make something of it. A lot of the students and their children became the lawyers and activists that fought against that old system, right . Including kevin dover. Hugs i will say this i actually went to a boarding school but not one of these. That is right great relatives who went the boarding school. I will say the people who survived this. Did what they had to do to survive this. Really didnt so many ways lay the groundwork for current generations ofr r native peoplo are doctors and lawyers and museum administrators in scholars of various types. We owe them a profound debt. One last thing that is the central book and the end is perseverance and the entire native population as well. But thinking how to survive through all of that. That is right. Ask you if you can quote his daughter grace thorpe and addressing the question of whether jim thorpe wasth great. She gave a speech in 1968 where she dealt with that question. First of all i thought of him as a father this mythological figure. But i am terrible at remembering precisely. But the dictionary definition and in every possible definition of that jim thorpe was. For all of the obstacles he faced for some of his own doing trouble with alcohol. And he was constantly on the move. A at what he did he was the best at what he did for a long period of time but no one could match him and in that sense he met the definition of greatness. Remarkable in magnitude, degree ineffectiveness, he was great. We are at the end of our time for the first want to congratulate you on a wonderful book. I would point out it was produced during covid which is quite extraordinary. But also to thank you very sincerely for such an insightful and sympathetic treatment of jim thorpe and the native people of thiss. It was a prickly dark time in many respects to littleknown, to little written about so thank you. I cant say how much that means to me. Thank you. [applause] book tv, every sunday on cspan2 features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. At 8 00 p. M. Eastern massachusetts republican Governor Charlie Baker shares his book results where he offers his thoughts on how to move past politics and get things done. Then at 10 00 p. M. 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