Disrupt dc, the rise of uber and the fall of the city the first city to fight back against uber. Washington dc was also the city where such resistance was defeated. It was here that the company a playbook for how to deal with entrenched intransigent sorry regulators and within the realm of local politics. The company the city already as the nations capital. Now is also the blueprint for how uber conquered cities around the world and explains why so many embraced. The company with open arms. Drawing on interviews with gig workers, uber lobbyists and organizers, disrupting demonstrates that many share the blame, lowering the nations hopes and dreams for what cities could be. In a sea of broken transit, underemployment and racial polarization, uber offered a lifeline. But at what cost . This is not the story of one company in one city. Instead, disrupting dc offers a36 view of urban america in crisis. Uber arrived promising a new future for workers, residents, policymakers and, others. Ultimately, ubers success and growth was never a sign of urban strength or innovation, but a sign of urban weakness and low about what City Politics can achieve. Understanding why uber rose reveals, just how far the rest of us has fallen have. Dr. Katie wells is a postdoctoral fellow at georgetown university. She studies how tech affects the way we live in cities and especially how we govern them. She has published findings on data surveillance, labor rights and Public Policy in, an academic journals and discussed the real time impacts of her research in plus media stories. She lives dc. Dr. Coffee ato is an associate professor of urban studies at cuny school of labor and labor and urban studies. Research interests are in the political economy of cities. The politics of public space and debates in and around the idea of the right to the city. He is the author of rights in transit Public Transportation and the rights of the city and californias east bay, as well as numerous articles in both academic and public venues. Dr. As well as anatole will be in conversation with Malcolm Harris harris, is a freelance writer and the author of palo alto, a history california capitalism in the world. Has up and and kids these. His next book is about political strategies in the climate. He lives in dc. Please me in welcoming to politics and prose doctors. Katie wells dr. Katie wells and dr. Coffee at home. All right. It seems like these are working. Excellent. Thank you all so much for joining us here. Wow, its amazing. Crowd we cant see how many people are out here until we walk out. So its a genuine like, joy to see so many of you here. Obviously, this is the hometown crowd for this book. So give yourselves a round of applause before we get started. Our. This book, i think, is the best single text example we have of how of these platform transforms an individual city. So its a real privilege to talk about this. With two out of three authors. Were missing declan. Sadly, ill filling in. I dont know the great accent, but try my best to be talking about it here with all of you so that the comments, i think will hit home a little harder because were in that home today. So without any more, my i turn to authors thats not true because i have to introduce my questions as well. One of the things thats really great about this book is how poorly vocal it is. Both the text itself in terms of how many like perspectives you get as well as the authorship. So i was hoping if you could talk a little bit about first the genesis of this project. Did you end up writing it together and with declan, because its not just to sort of like one person, one person, one person, the way these academic things kind of tend to be, its really a cohesive project. Yeah, thanks. Hi, guys. Its so nice to be here. This project began because i had a baby sitter take an uber home one night at time when we were in logan circle and, the babysitter lived five blocks away and i wanted to know what was it that would allow someone to pay someone else 5 to drive them five blocks on a friday night in the rain. So this project began with that sort of odd experience and coffees of looking at bus transits struggles and so kafui declan i went to graduate School Together and embarked on doing this project and we had not intended way were we going to write a book. We were writing academic pieces. But then the pandemic arrived. We were on zoom too much and we decided that if we were going to write a book, we wanted it to have a that spoke not just each other but to others. And the writing process for me was a pleasure. Yeah, im, you know, we didnt break up in the process. Yeah, i was. We were still friends, so, you know, i think the each of us came to the project, you know, with backgrounds, you know, declan does a lot of historical work in. Canada i had done a book on on transit and katie had done a lot of writing and research and publication on housing in dc and, you know, i, we liked other and wanted to do something collectively after working solo for for while and and then we embarked on this we got a grant, we got money and then we embarked on this on this project and the writing process, you know, i, i learned a lot about myself through it, but i think the book reads really well and. Its cohesive and. I became a better writer by working with people that something i expected to say. But, you know, the truth. So the book is composed, takes a lot of different perspectives, which i think is really essential when youre tackling issue thats involving a lot of peoples lives in different ways. Can you talk about some of the different perspectives and sense of interests that you were trying to explore in the text . So its its flat. Its five chapters, you know, the kind of the over arching argument is of, you know, understanding as a as a, as a, as a political project, as much as a kind of technology company, how it intervene in the kind of local politics and each chapter takes a different approach to that politics. We look at uber and the politics of data uber and the politics of race in dc uber and the politics of regulation and in each of those, you know, which i just think chapters we talk with different people, we try to bring out and highlight different. And you know, across all of that we talk about what, what means for how we understand, you know, urban, urban, public life largely arguing that its symptomatic of a set of larger structural issues that beset almost all cities in philly. Yeah, no, its great. The project really began as we followed 40 individual is who drove for uber in 2016 in the d. C. Area and we did not intend to do longitudinal study, but we got quite doing it and we were captivated with back to the same workers year after year after year as they moved and off the apps, especially the pandemic. And so at the same time we were following their stories. We were also curious how a city like dc, which like im from northeast ohio, like dc to me was a labor mecca. And so i was really curious how could a city like dc get in bed and become, you know, known as the most uber friendly city in the country. And so at the same time that we were to workers over and over and over, we were also talking to 30 local policymakers, some of whom are here, you know, to ask them, how are you thinking about data . How are you thinking about your relationship with these Silicon ValleyTech Companies . So talk a little bit more about that, the interaction between this company that comes into the city and the Civic Infrastructure here that its encountering because write about uber not just as a enemy force attacking the labor in the city but is exploiting real cracks in the city, in city life. Yeah. So the opening, the introduction begins with a kind of mini protest that no one will remember because it was very small that was protesting that the metro system and this was. 2016. Yeah. And you know, its a period when, you know, the, the metro system was on fire, it was safe traffic. You guys remember steve track in summer. This was metro pocalypse is metro on fire was the actual real website that year a lot of nods in the crowd its a good to do it in dc you know yeah i remember was on fire and so we you know we opened with this of protest about metro and then we you know make reference to this great book which is probably that tracks the Great Society rail, which is about the history of the metro. And we, you know, contrast that kind of initial vision of the metro as this public good with kind of the reality and then we kind of intervene say, look, theres all these people at protests talking about metro as a loser. I took an uber and it kind of captures kind of what we wanted to say in terms the kind of crumbling infrastructure uber in many cities is able to exploit or intervene in. And yeah, so the overarching argument. Right, is that basically that uber is a symptom of the crumbling infrastructure that urban life right now. So we want to understand why is it that Government Employees that were tasked with paratransit turn to uber. Well, its because their own systems were failing. Right. If we want to understand why, you know so many residents were turning to uber when they couldnt get home late at night. Well, metro wasnt running right. Or why workers were turning to uber while their full time jobs werent giving them regular or they couldnt pay and they werent earning enough to get by. And so part of the argument we try to unearth is why is it that uber just makes sense . So many of us right now, especially if we think its undermining politics as it exists and, the ability of cities to govern themselves in future, one of the other cracks in to the Public Transit system is the existing private Transit System has not developed a great reputation in the city and with policymakers talking about cab drivers, the cab systems and Racial Discrimination and in particular was another crack uber was ready to exploit. Can you talk that one in particular . Sure. I mean its an interesting kind of i dont know that you know that when when uber i lived in dc in 2011 it you know its the same years that dc stopped becoming a majority city and think this what we found talking with people reading reports about uber is often issues of race and Racial Discrimination in. The taxi industry emerged and came up in, you know, debates about about uber and its regulation alongside broader anxiety over kind of the racial shifts in the city. So part of what we try to do in this chapter, which we call lubricant, is to kind of explore the ways in which uber has kind of mobilized this race in dc, but then we show all the ways its mobilized in other cities to kind of win over policymakers. But its mobilized a very narrow and very vision of racial justice, a totally narrow and we try we try to show how how narrow it is. But at the same time how receptive communities and peoples are. People were to kind of ubers arrival on those those terms. Well same same about what it was like what is that appeal that ubers making on these racial terms. Yeah. So the beginning of the chapter we begin with this kind of it was a it was Cornell Belcher wrote an op ed in the post you know about, his own experience of Racial Discrimination in the taxi industry in d. C. And its a its you know, its a real piece of his sorry. Its a hes talking about real experiences as a black man. As a black man. Sorry. That should be thats important for the story. Were a good team. This is like takeaway. Okay, thats crucial. Keep point. Black man in d. C. Trying to get a cab and then its revealed later the day the post, a ton of correction. Thats actually Cornell Belcher had done a Research Study on racial that had been funded you know by uber and and and so part of what we is okay that seems pretty cynical but then you look all the comments that emerged that like flooded the inboxes of council people. In 2012 when kind of debates over regulation really you know erupted and like a good of those are about i cant get a to go here i cant they wont pick me up and uber does pick up right and so you part of the chapter is it is a complicated one because its both, you know pointing to the sort of cynicism that, you know, uber deploys, but also the real experiences of people, you know, in hailing while black right that it is an issue and uber this very narrow solution. Right. But its one that only took into consideration consumer, not one that took into a broader, we argue, is a Broader Vision of racial that would think about the majority black workforce that you know is being exploited from the policymaker standpoint. Can you a little bit more about how uber appeal to them as a sort of readymade to these problems, the way the may Platform Companies in general suggest themselves to policy makers in need of Solutions Real problems. Yeah mean no one wants to be a dinosaur, right . Uber came in and basically convinced, you know, understandably policymakers that, if they were going to stop uber, they were standing in the way of progress that is going to save us all and maybe believe that. Right. We all have iphones now. Innovation is going to save some us. But the problem was that i think that policymakers overlooked other very real options in getting in bed with uber and we are now a decade later still paying the price and i think we have theres a phrase we use over and over again over and over again in the book which is just uber do it and part of what i think i think we try to be as fair policymakers as we possibly can because part of we lay out are all the constraints that policymakers face or all the constraints that legislators, a council, people face given kind of broadest cultural issues that limit what cities can and cant do and that compel them to promote Economic Development above everything else. Right. And we can look at whats how have you guys seen whats happened in minnesota this summer around the gig economy . So thats sort of an interesting issue where it im seeing a few heads that are nodding. So in minnesota the state, what do you call it, state legislature . Yeah. Adopted a bill to say were going to give uber drivers and gig a minimum wage the right to a minimum wage like a decent labor law and the governor of minnesota in the first use his first veto in five years against this even though he is a prolabor governor. Right. And the reason that he did this and he undermined the ability of gig workers in that state to earn minimum wage in the future is because he was afraid he was convinced by arguments that if uber and lyft pull of the state, who else is going to offer rural areas with transit for disabled and elderly residents. So yeah and thats tim walz lets Farm Labor Party minnesota but it yeah that could have been thats captured kind of the book in a in a week you know the kind of commentary on that now from ubers perspective can talk a little bit about how they come in and their strategy when theyre approaching policymakers and how they used to really develop that strategy, which i think theyre pretty well known. They certainly are. I can say from my research were one of the leaders in this sort of urban reclaiming for platform economy. So i wonder if you can talk about it a little bit from the the invading perspective. So i so operation thunder, what no relation ship though to vietnam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Operate well so the book kind of begins and goes back to multiple times the the kind of ubers entrance into d. C. And so candidly since 2011 but it really started. In 2012 there was early pushback from the taxi and limousine, the commission from. Linton and then that summer, the same summer, there was a debate dealing with the council over minimum, minimum fares, which have, you know. Put it was going to it was it was going to put a floor on so these debates in 2012 it was sort of the first uber debates. But they were also that debate was really important because was also considering whether or not to require these companies to adhere to the american act and came in and texted every Single Person that had downloaded their app and sort of that new version of collectivism and said, hey, tell your council dont want us to be regulated. And so the council was inundated with 50,000 emails and of course, in a 24 hour period, 3700 tweets. Well i guess. Yes, tweets, it still existed. Twitter and the council for it. I mean, they they rolled it and so is the kind of it provided like a clear example of ubers power its ability to reach its consumers and, but also Silicon Valleys power and its ability go in and reshape laws. Right. This was a new of this wasnt just lobbying to curry favor. This is also regulatory. You know entrepreneurship. This was writing laws or writing themselves out of laws. So dc, you know, allowed to make itself uber convince dc to not regulate it. And that was sort of a new monument or thing that then uber picked up and dropped in cities and states across the country. That was before new york, right . With the showdown, famous showdown with de blasio over control. They went head to head and the city of new york folded. All right. Well, weve got we did the the rider, the company, the policy maker. We can finally talk about the driver, which i think is the real core of book. Um, and its the one where i think its most like anecdotally rich. So i wonder if there were some like driver stories that you wanted to share with the audience because there are some good ones. Im yeah, no, thats great. We really could not have done book without the relationships that we developed with the 40 workers that we first met in 2016 and then continue to interview and survey the next five years. And then it became six and then seven. Im in. I share one story about a a woman whos pseudonym for the book is diana and diana grew in dc and she started using the metro by herself at age she eventually went to utc time the university of the district of columbia. We have some faculty here and while she was going to school, mcdonalds was accommodating her schedule, but she hated the fast food. And so when she heard of uber 2016, she said, hey, be my own boss, set my own schedule. That would work with her classes. So she signed up to over the next few years. The work was hard. She encountered Sexual Assault incident she incurred damage incurred damage to her steering wheel. The work was hard and difficult. And so when she finally graduated from udc and she got a job with the Public Housing authority in dc as security officer, she was happy to be done with uber, but she didnt resent the work and she defended it to us at one point and said, i go back to uber if i needed it, and over time that advantage of longitudinal study is she was and go back she did right she ended up having a child as a single parent and she wasnt able to make ends meet. And so then she went back to uber and then eventually uber eats. She took another break. But as she said, who else going to help her . Right. The city was not there, help her. She wasnt able to get rental assistance because she earned too much for that. She earned too much to get food assistance. Right. And so uber was there to help her. And so the question us that we want to leave with folks with this book. Right, is what would to happen so that folks like diana need uber to be there. Or their safety net . Yeah. Okay. Not your safety net. Thank you. God, that was such great line. It seems like we should, but i have more questions specifically that also in terms of questions were going to were going to turn to the audience soon. Were going to ask you to come to this mic here. If you want to like, make sure you get your question, feel free to start lining up. Now. Uh, thank you. Exactly. Appreciate. Demonstration. Um um, in terms the use of the app specifically, uh, by drivers, can you talk little bit about how theyre workplace activity . Theyre their day to day choices, minute to minute choices, even were managed by the app and then also how they went then to manage the app back and how they were able to like fight back against the surveillance thats put on. Yeah. So for those you that havent driven on the uber app, its an difficult job. Its an honorable honorable one, but its also really difficult the phone is requiring you to make all kinds of decisions very quickly and respond on the phone over years. The app also changes sometimes. The rules change minute to minute, day to day. Whats really difficult about the app right now, and it has always been the case since, the extent to which the pay is personal. So if coffee and i are both to sign up to drive, were going stand outside politics and pros and connecticut avenue. I might get a job offer. 4, the exact same job. Coffee is going to get for 17 because they realize that im pretty cheap and im willing to take any ride that comes. Whereas coffees a cherry picker. Yeah. And so the old adage equal pay for equal work goes right the window. What this does is it puts pits workers against each. And so workers in the course of the work that is isolating in all kinds of ways. Right. That theyre not able to see that they are constantly being gamed. Right. One of the hard things, two things i would say that are really surprising about this work for us was in the first round of interviews we did, 78 of the workers said to us they had never had a meal or a drink with another uber driver. Okay, they dont know the other folks. And so we think a result of that over time, a lot of the workers we talked to internalized any setbacks they had on the app as indications their own character failures. Right. I just wasnt smart enough. Make it work as opposed to this system is set up to screw me thats. True we also think the app is taking upwards of 182 daily data Points Per Minute and we dont know where that data goes or what it does, but we believe it does. The apps decisions about how to schedule you in the future on flip side, can you talk a little bit about then how that how workers then make use the app themselves maybe trying to make the best of their situation no matter what the app would make of them. Yeah. So there have been some attempts in the dc area and there currently is one right now with ace collective coming out of new virginia majority to organize as uber drivers. Its an incredibly difficult project. Its one that also existed early in 2019 and the dcr for a while. One of the places where folks are able to count track the isolating nature of the workplace is at the dca airport in the waiting lot because its like that bottleneck, right . If you think of like the panama canal is a place where the ships get stuck right, uber drivers get stuck at the dc waiting for flights to come in. One thing that was positive in 2019 is that some workers were able to work collectively to manipulate surge or an artificial raising their wages. Unfortunately, that got shut down. Then yeah, theres great part. A lot of these you know each of the chapters in some of the chapters we wrote for the book but, others are adapted from from other academic papers and that particular is was from a paper called just in place work. And its its good but if you cant access the online you know why, not just email us. So the book or email us, well give you the article all well, it looks like weve definitely got some people waiting to ask questions. Im just going to ask one more before we get to them which is on the off there were policymakers in this room. Whats a takeaway that you want them to take away from if they dont get through the whole book lets say but came and saw you speak what would be the one takeaway youd want them to have . Like my son. I mean, ill, ill go through a list, data sharing. We have to get some data. The world is literally on and were allowing unknown numbers of gas powered vehicles to go across city. We know that they are empty. 40 to 60 of the time. How on earth are rebuilding sustainable places if we dont even have data about where vehicles are and what their costs are to congestion, to idling, let alone questions about how many of the workforce members of the workforce are on public assistance, which we know is happening in the dc area. Those are immediate. I think labor issue. I mean, i would encourage, i think the efforts, especially in minnesota, by groups to, you know, demand wage minimums and then fights over the kind of classification as employees is, is is important although at the municipal its unclear how far you can go with that, which is why you i would, you know, encourage to think about this as an urban issue, think about all the externalities these companies cause, you know i mean, we were able to this year raise 9 million on a new tax from ride hail which im very proud of this year to fund 12 overnight bus lines. Right. Because we believe right and i think increasingly d. C. Council believes that these companies are not paying their fair share. All right. You know, we give our authors here a round of applause. Okay. And again, if youve got a question feel free to get in line, well see many. We can get through. We see the use of autonomous taxis starting up in cities like San Francisco and soon other cities across the country. And this could a good thing because that their. Zero discrimination but on the other hand there is a lot of job including for minorities minorities. Yeah so we cover a little bit of the question of evs in the last chapter of the book. Chapter four, which is flying in fly in cars and other urban legends we call we love that love that title. Part of it is we were not. You know, were not sure the degree to which Autonomous Vehicle and have you been following the whole San Francisco you know with you know these Autonomous Cars like getting the demobilized by traffic cones and but wet pavement also this week where pavement or child in the road yeah just just so were sure the kind of the plaza of it although who knows what we do know is that it for at least uber it does or uber and other companies ubers pull you know its sold off it sold off every vehicle in it does play a role in kind of raising expectations for for people and generate money so i think its a its its lowering fares to yeah lowering fares and labor discipline all sorts of things. Yeah. And so the argument that we make this book about avs is that regardless of whether evs arrive. They have already done a decades worth of ideological to convince folks that we should make way for this other future as opposed to saying maybe we need more Public Transit, maybe again, even electric vehicle, avs are not going to address some of the needs that our has. And its one of these things that came up like in interviews we did with drivers like early on constantly, which, you know, i dont know that and this i dont know how long this job is going to exist. Right. So whats why is it worth fighting for or fighting for better conditions and . Thats kind of where we started. Thank you. So my question is as a consumer, this is was a complete surprise to me. Ive lived in the area for 43 years and ive lived everywhere. Ive lived in virginia and in the district for a while and now i live in bethesda where there is Public Transportation at all. And i drive and im going to stay in the suburbs suburbs and im going to die in the suburbs. Thats where i my home. Thats where i belong. I dont want to go to a retirement community. I go to a retirement community. I dont have to. But at some point, im not going to be able to drive. I have never used uber because im a labor activist and think its exploitation of the worst. They dont pay enough, period. They take too out of salaries in order to manipulate and is. Im not shocked. Im not surprised at all. Thats what youd expect that they can do it so they do the question is i mean waiting for the avis that the automatic vehicles the autonomic vehicles because that will be how i can i mean if if i drive im locked in my i cant i broke my hip im afraid of bicycles now if i fall on a bicycle and break my hip again, im in trouble. So what should we do about this . I mean, my feeling is i wont take uber because because wont participate in that kind of exploitation. But is that bad for the uber drivers or should i be taking over over. So i, i mean, i, that the first answer i had was, well, i feel like we, we, we have the technology, you know, already, you know, public busses, you know, once in in massachusetts, of course, of i mean, look, we have iphones that made in foxconn, right . Like we live in this world. We dont want to tell you. Dont take one, because theres nothing dishonorable about having someone use it doesnt go where i need to go. Metro doesnt come anywhere near. Me i cant walk to metro and will never be a metro because of the sprawl. So we dont want to encourage people to never take it. What we want to do is encourage you to get involved, right . You know in arguing for other kinds of ways of, you know, offering mobility. Bethesda right. If there were opportunities, say, you know what, i need more than once an hour, but this is going to happen. It doesnt make economic sense. Were all spread out. What are right. Yeah. So i think that this is a challenge and theyre not going to rebuild bethesda and make it into a park, you know, tall apartment houses. So there are cab systems that do offer regulated, you know, Transit Systems used that theyre terrible. Okay. Now, i appreciate this but i real worry. But i want to uber ill just keep driving. Well, as long as i can. Yeah you put your nail your finger on the nail or put your finger on. Okay. Yeah. One of the things that we try to, you know, the tensions that we try to pull out in the book, but most most americans live in the suburbs. I will say there are more increasing alternatives for labor conscious consumers. Theres the you the drivers coop in new york city Just Launched and in fact the people behind that are trying to like cede more coops in other cities. And the way that these platforms built, its very easy for to switch between them. And so we could see switch over between infrastructure very quick and we do have some newcomers alto and empower im not recommending them, but i do know they exist in the d. C. Area. Hi, thanks so much for your comments there. I had a lovely bicycle ride here through Rock Creek Park and i love taking capital bikeshare, but im also aware that its owned by motivate, which is owned by lyft and so my question im wondering as the Urbanist Movement tries reduce car usage because its killing our planet, its killing cities in terms of space usage and its killing more pedestrians than gun violence. As were trying do all these things to reduce car usage when the leading alternatives to that this micromobility revolution. Im very concerned see uber and lyft sort of getting into that and putting their fingers all over that. So i was wondering if you could comment on the fact that both uber and left have started get into micromobility and just like where do you see all of that space going policy wise . But i think the micah im, i think generally in supportive of different transit alternatives. I think part what were trying to in in the book is not kind like target uber lyft but we actually didnt want to write a hit piece you know, it sounds like we did, but i promise the book is not a piece we wanted to get away. Its true. The kind of demonizing of the companies and focus more attention, just the kind of questions that come to policymaker focus, which is how should we . How can we use . The kind of innovations in technology to improve public and communal life . How can we balance that with the rights labor . How can we get more cars off the streets and if and if and, if we can use companies to do that up to certain standards, i dont see whats whats wrong with it. I think theres its the focus is on the kind of lowered expectations was the original title that we see in cities in terms of how they think about you know all the questions that people are asking about transit micromobility is the private sector do it. We need to just step back and let operate without, you know, questions without collecting data, without imposing regulations on labor or so i know thats a great point. And i dont know if you guys have seen, but lyft has also announced that it might want to off bikes because it is not leading to as many ride hail users as it intended. And so thats a case, right, where would say, oh my goodness, we need to have a chorus or a public narrative to say, lets actually take back bike share, write, cap city, you know, capital bike share be part of you know d dot or like that thank you. Thank you thank you very much. One of the the points that ive senior emphasized in your book is that uber is sorry Ride Companies in general are as a a low cost option or a zero cost option for cities. But the other thing that seems to come across are just wondering if i was this properly is its not. Zero financial cost or even a zero political cost option. Its kind of a zero intellectual cost option. One thing that seems to come across is just a real gap. Sophistication, frankly, between the Rideshare Companies and dc policy. And obviously i suppose part of the solution to that is writing like this one. But beyond beyond that, can you speak to why i mean, dc attracts ambitious people one should think there would be a greater degree of sophistication in local why why dont we see that could could. Sorry i dont mean to sorry thats kind of a comfortable question if you can speak to that. Think you. Should should. Yeah. I appreciate your comment. I think were moving in the right way. I think theres room to rethink. I hope that we are not looking ten years from now back and asking same questions and thinking were in the same spot. I think you think you are giving more of an answer than that . Come on. This is a good position. Theres one of the things that he out, which i think is its a thats a great point is that in the introduction the book we we have this long quote from david David Plouffe who is obamas guy who was you obama in the early Obama Administration and hes become a kind you know he became a kind of counsel or adviser to two brand and his senior senior Strategic Advisor said. Okay. Senior and part of what you know what the quote we pull out is that hes he makes the sale to cities on exact those grounds which is unlike unlike a factory a kind of stadium or stadium. Were not asking uber is not asking for, you know, massive tax breaks or were not asking for theyre not asking for subsidies. All theyre asking for is for you to allow them to in your city. And so no costs. Of course, what we say is theres tremendous costs. And i you said it exactly right. Theres ideological costs. Theres infrastructure costs. More cars on the road. And theres theres deeply political costs. So i appreciate the question. Im just going to avoid that. So the second part of it, which is, you know, do we why is it so nice . Its so crappy. Its really hard to govern a place, right, with strangers uncontested land. And i think that a lot of the policymaker is that we quote in the book and followed like they wanted to do good they really i think most of them were not they really believed that maybe this would work out right. Because, you know, i think many of them like us, are empiricists until they had data that showed otherwise it was really hard to know what was happening. But now were saying, okay, the bills come due its been a decade lets reevaluate and i think a lot of places are we can look at minnesota theres also going to be a battle out in massachusetts later this uber is working on a Ballot Initiative there to what do you say circumvent preempt any local entities regulating it. Right. Its moved on to the state, sort of in a copycat prop 22. So these battles are happening. I think theyre happening because there are legislators and City Residents that are saying, you know what, this isnt the way we should live. I think weve got time. So i just want to ask a quick follow up, because i that was a very interesting question because we also see a sort of losing of expertise among drivers as a result, the sort of plug and play attitude, the platforms themselves. So i wonder if its not we all need to like, you know, just bash the local. But i wonder if its the plug play approach of these platforms in general that reduce the necessity for expertise, not just policymaking, but like knowing where the roads are. Yeah, thats a interesting point. I mean, the first thought i had in my mind was, oh, this seems like a just a general symptom of, the sort of, you know, industrial capitalism we know and love of just this killing, right . The kind of kind of concern. But then theres also, i think, reskilling, right . Learning, new learning ways to manipulate, you know, technologies for, you know, for collective aims, which which we show to some degree in the book. But but i think its like the that reskilling skilling dynamic that thats interesting. But i think the plug and play absolutely and part of that rhythm right of the plug and play also coincides like the workers being behind a black veil. Right. Not spending more time on the app also means they dont realize theyre being played against their neighbor. And so at first its just atomization of these humans. So for any policymakers in the room, were not calling your stupid, you might just have been a skilled right and thank you folks again for coming speak with us today. And i was wondering i know your folks focused mainly on the impact of uber on d. C. , but i was wondering if in your folks have studies if you found that uber and lyft and these kinds of Ride Hailing Services are still traditionally unprofitable and the sense that they dont make money from their actual ride hailing efforts. Its the capital that gets pumped in. Is that the case . So its interesting you ask that. Okay. If you asked me that two months ago, i would said absolutely been ten years. Uber has lost what 31 billion. Okay, softbank, saudi money. Okay. Mostly, but a lot. Yes. However, they did report it in the august quarter, the First Time Ever uber did report a, what do you call it, a gap. Whats that called . The general accounting practices, that thing. Okay. However, theres a critic if you want to get into nitty gritty, named hubert, who ran oira and whos been writing about this for ten years and claims and i dont know, because im not a business expert, that its not a real profit, that its turned, that in fact, it is evidence of selling off of depreciating assets well as doing some advertising as well as sort of the uber eats business. Thats really whats cooking up. And that has been the focus of our current thinking about the role of these delivery apps. And i think thank you for explaining. I was still curious because i heard that about ten years ago and i dont know if it still true. Is it all right if i ask a follow up question and that in mind, have uber and lyft managed to sort of on by absorb being the rolls of what might be traditionally considered a public entities charge, like providing a Rural Transit Service providing parity transit capital verbalizing capital bikeshare is that how theyve managed to survive all these years of. Unprofitable city. So its interesting thats a great question. My initial response is i think thats how theyve survived financially. However, politically and this will go back to the other question. I think have gained from mendels goodwill right and political power by doing those services. One of the things that surprised us in the course of some recent research is that you guys no, for the city, fabulous, radical organization. Okay. One thing that surprised us is that they have a partnership with doordash to provide Delivery Services for a pantry for their pantry goods for families that arent able to get out to bread for the city. They deliver them. And so in talking to bread for the city about they that, you know, is as critical and leftists and, you know, a wonderful addition d. C. As it could be. Why theyre in bed with doordash. They said, well you know who else is going to give us that money . And so i think that buys them good. Well, doordash did a bread for the city did notice. However, and i dont know what theyll do. The future that many of their clients are also workers for doordash. Right . Because those who are delivering the food pantry packages do not earn enough right to not qualify for the same packages themselves. But i think thats definitely a political part. We know that doordash also gave the city 500,000 earlier this year for 5000 dash cams. I mean, i think they goodwill by we saw what happened in minnesota. So i think thats part of their play. But i dont think a financial play and i think, you know, when they became a Public Company and they had to release all these disclosures, they did they did identify Public Transit as a as a competitor. And that was very revelatory. But yeah. So thank you so much. Good evening. Thank you for helping push or being one of the sparks on our digital and platform overlords. I appreciate it. I am you the point of cooperative in new york. However, im hoping and im a believer of of we all should own the platform where spend our money and where we make our money. Both pieces. I want to i want to be part of the platform and of the uber and get money back because use it is any other hopeful tidbits of information besides cooperative in new york. I know theres something might be being tried here but but my problem is you know a bunch of hippies in the coop is theyre a little slow you theyre a little slow and you know we need a little more george soros and you know vc money. Is there any other hope in that direction for ownership but do people know leah hunt . Hendricks shes just had a great write up in, the new yorker. Maybe she wants to come in. Well, i do know that the drivers coop in in new york was launched with some vc money, with some tech money. So like and its surprising how little it takes for some of these things, again, because the workers dont actually work for and can switch easy once youve got the infrastructure. So what it takes is awareness and people using them. So yeah download the apps know use them or whatever and i think there some funds that you know in Coop Development they might be small but but they and i see commons is one but theyre theyre yeah all right thank you. And try your best. Yeah sorry sort a the uber self regulation process always felt to me like an extension of the sort of social media selfregulation process then most recently with the pandemic and the uber eats, doordash, etc. Being sort of its own entity and relationships thats now effectively three major times in a row where tech argues successfully self regulation with sort of notorious with its local governance. Do you see dc being a viable place to combat that on a local level . Obviously a multifront battle, but what are your thoughts on that . I suppose know, its a great question. And can i put a in for malcolms book with this question . So what they do, palo alto is a new National Best seller. But in reading malcolms book right, i was actually heartened to know that. The same situation of selfregulate and that we see with social media, with delivery and ride hail is nothing new. Do you want to. Oh no you know but i mean so but malcolms story about the railroads, california, but also about Silicon Valleys actual beginnings with silicon chips. Right. This is the way it always worked. Do i believe that dc can forge a different future . Absolutely. We wouldnt have written the book if we didnt think so. Is it going to be hard . Sure, if. Thank you for that question. Mean and i think i think we can jump that also think about the federal about whats it called . 203 whats the number . I dont know. Two three whats there . Somebody knows it here. Okay, but the social Media Debates about regulation, right, that they are you can easily extrapolate i think from what we found in dc and we hope theres a story about uber is not just a story about a failed attempt to regulate this entity but is a warning about what happens. We dont also take over other public infrastructure. Lets look at twitter, right . Yeah. I think, you know, with just my thinking, the the i think, you know, there is something maybe a little different, you know, you know, ubers like in, you know, like this cars and people in a way that, you know, social media. Its it seems like the ether. It feels like its has less of a geography or urban geography. And so i think that theres probably a role and maybe this is something i could have explored more in book, which is, you know, different types of government, strong mayors versus, you know, weak systems that all plays in how functional or how how plausible regulation might and could be. And so those the types of questions id ask about about dc what, what is it about dc that both made it a place that uber found attractive to turn, to or what about dc it vulnerable to uber and what, what is it about dc also might make it a place you could see real and genuine pushback. But yeah, its tough to think about that. Yeah, i think the one other shout out id say before we end also which we didnt get into right is the way in which the u. S. Has governed these is not the only way these companies have existed in the world. And there are plenty of places that either require these companies to provide holiday pay workers comp, death benefits. Right. I dont know if you guys saw earlier this week a pg at Prince Georges County uber driver was assaulted and carjacked and uber offered him 1600 dollars as an right not the car and nothing else right but in other countries are not to play that way. And i think its to keep in mind, look, this isnt the only way that these companies have agreed to operate, and we dont need to allow them to do it here either. If i may ask a minor follow up, its just what do you guys is sort of the best tool to counteract that when uber and to your point, twitter, social media being less geographical. But uber is 168 data Points Per Minute is low. And i most people arent aware of how low is that extremely weaponized. Well when itself is not regulated and understanding of the regulation of that is so underappreciated the ftc gives hope. But i would also i think and ill point to malcolm in thinking about the occupy wall street. I know, but im thinking and thinking about the occupy wall Street Movement and thinking about the mobilization. Like i mentioned, that woman, leah hunt hendricks. But the mobilization of folks from Resource Generation or folks that saw themselves, you know, as having privilege, right, to say, you know what, im going to fight for this, too, right. It cannot only be that we are requiring the workers. It cant be without. Right. But i think the onus is on us. I will say 15 years ago i was part of a group in dc to raise income taxes on dcs highest income earners. At the time, nobody over 40,000 paid a differentiated rate right. And we didnt think that was just or equitable. And so i think that if we think about organizing in consumers, we think about organizing those of us who, you know, have time and leisure to think about you, know uber on a tuesday night, which is so nice of all of you. Right . Thats i, i dont know. I feel. I think. Thank you. Hi. I have more of a social kind of question. How do you talk to your friends about this when they dont care and they prioritize convenience . I, i went to with some friends and the difference between an uber or the train which was impressive in philly especially coming from like i lived in the south. So we had zero trains. I was so excited to come to dc, but i mean it was like a five minute difference to. Walk to a train and get to where going versus take an uber. And my friend wanted to take an uber or i came here alone and i took a bus and walked 15 minutes and i took an hour driving would have taken minutes. How do i talk to my friends . They have a point. It is more convenient and if were all splitting the uber it is cheaper. So leave. And i point at paresh its its a good good question i mean we we try to take this question on directly in the conclusion of the book where basically we say look its okay yeah we we we love anyway raise your hand okay we have yes life is hard were tired too. I know. I think coming at it with more understanding, i dont want to cut you off. I was just going to say, you know, we the book is not i mean, i dont think wrote it. Its kind of have more like a work of moral persuasion. You know, its its you live your life. Part of it is understanding that that is maybe precisely the issue that were trying to grapple, which is how do we you know, how do we build in ways in which we are not pitting consumers against workers, pitting convenience against the rights of of of people to, you know, earn a living . And how do we and thats thats not a question that one one person can answer. The solution is not going to come from one persons consumer choices. Its going to be its going to from people collectively demanding something something different. Sorry. So so how you get people interested to do that collective work when they are tired, they havent to be in cash yet. Sorry, they start with tipping in cash instead. Tipping on the app tip. Oh oh. I dont take uber very often i forget tipping is a thing on the app thing. Yeah me neither. I dont have the dont download the app and then make your friends pay it if you want to pay for they. Have no problem with that. I tried that. Well at least you save a couple bucks. Yeah, thank. Okay. I think we have time for one more question. Thanks for your. Thanks, everyone. Pressures on. Did you uber . Was anyone willing to go on the record . Are you receiving hate mail from and you know if you have time to address it . You know is is reform possible or are you arguing my for sort of things. Those are Great Questions but uber folks did go on the record with us we have some great in the book if you want to read from dcs him talking about why dc was so wonderful for the company how adopted its worldview which that it can be a better regulator than city. We stopped being able to get folks on the record we started publishing we did get in to some phases via journalists with the company about what the word need means whether uber drivers need to get extra insurance or whether like if thats a legal requirement or thats just like a moral suggestion suggestion. I cant remember your other questions questions. Oh, reform versus dismantle. Do you want to take that coffee . You could do it. Yeah. So i think we you know, dismantle this. I mean, i think the power as such, i think the finance as such its its very hard to imagine that being said, do we need chauffeur services . Do they need to be of our, you know, urban landscape absolutely. Can they be non exploitative . Can we have some data to evaluate and make sure that theyre servicing are all wards . Yes yeah. I would just add that, you know, part the you know i think before we dismantle or reform kind of just understanding how we got here and i think thats at least what the book i, i can does well i think you know the question where we go from here you know we try to address and give examples of places where they are their fights but its really laying really kind of trying to understand how we got to this place, how uber a social net for many people and. Why thats bad. And then where we go from here. Im sorry, i to cut it off because we got to give them time to sign and give our authors round of applause. Thank you, sir, for saying that because thethe author, the books being presented here today is yascha mounk, who, as i said, is one of the inaugural scholars of the moynihan public fellowship. Hes also a professor of th