Transcripts For CSPAN2 January 6 Hearings Fourth Hearing On Investigation Of Capitol Attack 20240707

>> does select committee to investigate the january 6 attack on the united states capital will be in order . without objection the chair is authorized to put the committee in resource at any point. the chair announces the committee's approval to release deposition material to today's hearing. good afternoon. in our last hearing we told the story of a schema driven by donaldtrump . pressure on our vice president to illegally overturn the election results . we showed that in the pressure campaign mike pence fulfilled his constitutional obligation donald trump turned a violent mob loose on him. we showed the mob came within roughly 40 feet of the vice president. today, we will show that what happened to mike pence wasn't an isolated part of donald trump's scheme to overturn the election. in fact pressuring public servants into betraying their oath dwas a fundamental part of the playbook and a handful of election officials in several key states stood between donald trump and upending of american democracy. as we begin again today it's important to remember when we count the votes for president we count the votes state-by-state. for the most part, the candidates who win the popular vote in a state when all the states electoral college votes and whoever wins a majority of electoral college votes wins the presidency. so when donald trump tried to overturn the election results he focused on just a few states. he wanted officials at the local and state levels to see the vote was tainted by widespread fraud and throw out the results. even though as we showed last week there wasn't any voter fraud that could have overturned the election results and like mike pence, these public servants wouldn't go along with donald trump's scheme and when they wouldn't embrace the big lie and substitute the will of the voters for donald trump's will to eremain in power donald trump enworked to ensure they face the consequences. threats to people's livelihood and lives. threats of violence donald trump new about and amplified and in our other hearings we can't just look backwards at what happened in late 2020 and early 2021 because the danger i'm gone away. our democracy endured a mighty test january 6 and in the days before. we say our institutions held but what does that really mean? democratic institutions are abstractions or ideas. they are local officials who oversee elections. secretaries of state. people in whom we placed our trust that they would carry out their duties. but what if they don't? two weeks ago new mexico held its primary elections. one county commission refused to certify the results citing the unsupported claims dealing with dominion voting machines. the courts stepped in saying the mexico law required the commission to certify the results. two of the three members of the commission finally relented. one still refused. saying his boat quote, isn't based on any evidence. it's not based on any facts. it's only based on my.feeling and my own intuition and that's all i need. by the way, a few months ago this county commissioner was found guilty of illegally entering the capitol grounds on january 6. this story reminds us of a few things. first, as we've shown in our previous hearings claims that widespread voter fraud tainted that 20/20 presidential election have always been a lie. donald trump new they were alive and he kept amplifying them anyway. everything we described today , the relentless destructive pressure campaign on state and local officials was all based on a lie. donald trump new it. he did it anyway. second, the lie hasn't gone away. it's corrupting our democratic institutions. people who believe that lie are now seeking positions of public trust. and as seen in new mexico, there oath to the people they serve will take it back to their commitment to the big lie. if that happens who will make sure ourinstitutions don't break under the pressure ? we won't have to close calls. we will have a catastrophe. our distinguished colleague from california mister schiff will present much of the select committee's findings on this matter. i'm pleased to recognize our vice chair miss cheney for any opening statements she would care to offer. >> thank you mister chairman. today we will begin examining president trumps efforts to overturn the election by exerting pressureon state officials and state legislatures . donald trump had a direct and personalrole in this effort as did rudy giuliani , as did john eastman. in other words the same people who are attempting to pressure vice president mike pence to reject electric electoral votes illegally were also simultaneously working to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election at the state level. each of these efforts to overturn the election was independently serious. each desert attention both by congress and by ourdepartment of justice . but as a federal court has already indicated, these efforts were also part of a broader plan and all this was done in preparation for january 6. i would note 2 points for particular focus today. first today you will hear about calls made by president trump to officials of georgia and other states . as you listen to these tapes keep in mind what donald trump already knew at the time he was making those calls. he had been told over and over again that his stolen election allegations were nonsense. for example, this is what former attorney general bill barr said to president trump about allegations in georgia. >> we took a hard look at this ourselves and taste on our review of it including the interviews of the key witnesses, the fulton county delegations had no merit. the balance under the table were legitimate balance. they were not in a suitcase. they had been pre-opened for feeding into the machine. all the stuff about the water leak and that there was some subterfuge involved, we felt there was confusion there was no evidence of a subterfuge to create an opportunity to feed things into account. and so we didn't see any evidence of fraud in the fulton county episode. >> as acting deputy attorney general richard donahue told donaldtrump this . >> and i said something to the effect of serve, we've dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews. the major allegations are not supported by the evidence. >> mister trump was told by his own advisors he had no basis for his stolen election claims yet he continued to pressure state officials to change the election results. second you will hear about a number of threats and efforts to pressure state officials to reverse the election outcomes. one of our witnesses today gabriel stirling explicitly warned president trump about potential violence on december 1, 2020. more than a month before january 6. you will see excerpts from the video repeatedly today. >> it had all gone too far. all of it. joe asked for a patriot who ran cirencester to be shot. a twentysomething text has death threats saying she should be home for treason because she was transferring a report on batches from an ems to a countycomputer so he could read it . this has to stop. mister president, you have not condemned theseactions for this language . senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions . this has to stop. we need you to step up and if you're going to take a position of leadership shows some . my boss, secretary raffensberger his address is out there. they had people come onto their property. this has to stop . this is elections. this is the backbone of democracy and allof you who have not said a damn word are complicit in this . >> the point is this. donald trump did not care about the surge in violence. he did not condemned them. he made no effort to stop them. hewent forward with his feet allegations anyway. one more point . i would urge all of those watching today to focus on the evidence the committee will present. don't be distracted by politics. this is serious. we cannot let america become a nation of conspiracy theories and thoughtviolence. finally i want to thank our witnesses today . for all of your service to our country. today all of america will hear about the selfless actions of these men and women who acted honorably to uphold the law, protect our freedom and preserve institution. today mister chairman we will all see an example ofwhat truly makes america great . you mister chairman. i healed back. >> without objection the chair recognizes the gentleman from california mister schiff for an opening statement. >> thank you mister chairman and non-vice chair. on november 3, 2020 donald trump ran for reelection to the office of the presidency and he lost. his opponent joe biden finished ahead in the key battleground states of arizona, michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, georgia and i elsewhere .d nevertheless and for the first time in history the losing presidential candidate fought to hold onto power. as we've seen in previous hearings he did so through a variety of means. on election day he sought to stop the counting of the vote knowing that the millions of absentee ballots elections officials would be counting on election day andthereafter would work run strongly against him and deliver a victory to joe biden . next and when he could not stop the counting he tried to stop state legislatures and governors from certifying the results of the election. he went to court and filed dozens of frivolous lawsuits making unsubstantiated claims of fraud. when back to failed email today pressure campaign directed at individuals state legislators to try to get them to go back into session and either declare him the winner, decertified joe biden as the winter winter or send 2 slates of electors to congress. one for biden and one for him and pressure vice depresident pants to choose him as the winner. but the state legislatures wouldn't go along with this scheme and neither with the vice president. none of the legislatures agreed to go back into special session and declare him the winner. no legitimate state authority and the states donald trump lost would agree to appoint fake trump electors and send them to congress. but this didn't stop the trump p campaign either. they assembled groups of individuals in key battleground states and got them to call themselves electors . rated phony certificates associated with these fake scollectors and then transmitted these certificates to washington and to the congress to be counted during the joint session of congress for january 6. none of this work but according to federal district judge david carter former president trump and others likely violated multiple federal laws by engaging in this scheme including conspiracy to defraud the united states . we will hear evidence of the former president and his top advisers direct involvement in key elements of this plot for which judge carter called a coup in search of a legal theory . for as the judge explained president trump's pressure campaign to stop the electoral count did not end with vice president pence. it targeted every tear of federal and state elected officials convincing state legislatures he said to certify competing electors was essential to stop the count and ensure president trump's reelection. as we have seen in our prior hearings, running through this scheme was a big lie that the election was plagued with massive fraud and somehow stolen. you willremember what the president's own attorney general bill barr told the president about the outcome of the election .>> and i told them that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public was bullshit. that the claims of fraud for bullshit. >> the presidents life was and is a dangerous cancer on the body politic. if you can convince americans they cannot trust their own elections at any time they lose it's somehow illegitimate than what is left but violence to determine who should govern? this brings us to the focus of today's hearing. when state elections officials refused to stop the count donald trump and his campaign tried to put pressure on them. the state executive officials refused to certify him the winner of states he lost he apply more pressure and state legislators refused to go back into session and appoint trump electors he amped up the pressure yet again. anyone who got in the way of donald trump's continued hold on power afterhe lost the election was the subject of a dangerous and escalating campaign of pressure . this pressure campaign brought angry phone calls and texts, armed protests, intimidation and all too often threats of violence and death. state legislators were singled out. so too were statewide elections officials. even local elections workers diligently doing their jobs were accused of being criminals and had their lives turned upside down. as we will show, the president's supporters heard the former president's claims of fraud and false allegations he made against state and local officials as a call to action . >>. [chanting] stop the steal. you're a threat to democracy. you're a threatto free and honest elections . >>. [inaudible] your are a felon and you must turn yourself in . >> than about 45 minutes later we started to hear the voices outside my home and my stomach sunk and i thought it's me. then we don't know what's, the uncertainty of that was the fear. are they going to attack my house? i'm in here with my kids . i'm trying to putthem to bed . so it was, that was the scariesty moment just not knowing what was going to happen . >> this pressure campaign against state and local officials spanned numerous contested states. as you'll see in this video produced by theselect committee . >> my alname is josh robin to the house select committee to investigate a january 6 attack on the united states capital. beginning late november the president started appearing beforestate legislators urging them to give their electoral votes to trump even though he lost the popular vote . >> i represent president trump along with jenna ellis and this is our fourth or fifth hearing. >> this election have to be turned around cause we won pennsylvania by a lot and we won all of these swing states by a lot. >> this was the strategy with both practical and legal elements. the committee subpoenaed email from two days after the election in which a trump campaign lawyer asked another trump lawyer john eastman to write a memo justifying the idea. >> wendy remember this coming up as an option in the postelection period? >> right after the election. it might have beenbefore the election . >> eastman tried to justify the strategy circulated dthrough rudy giuliani's legal team and the state legislators around the country and appeared before the georgia state legislature to advocate for it publicly. >> you could do what the florida legislature was prepared to do which was to adopt a state of electors themselves and when you add in the mix of the significant statistical anomalies and video evidence of outright election fraud i don't think it's just your authority to do that but quite frankly i think you have a duty to do that to protect the integrity of the election here in georgia. >> republican officials in several states releasedpublic statements recognizing president trump's proposal was unlawful . for instance georgia governor brian kemp called the proposal unconstitutional while arizona house speaker rusty ballard wrote the idea would undermine the rule rule of law. the campaign to get it state legislatures to go across with the scheme intensified when president trump invited delegations from michigan and pennsylvania to the whithouse . >> either you or speaker. did you make the anpoint to the president you were not going to do anything which violated michigan law ?>> i believe we did. whether or not those exact words were mirrored, i think the words that i would have likely used is we were going to follow the law. >> nevertheless the pressure continued. the next day president trump tweeted hopefully the courts and world legislatures will have the courage to do what has to be done to maintain the integrity of our elections and the united states of america itself. the world is rock watching. he posted multiple messages on facebook with contact information for state officials and urging supporters to contact to contact them to demand a vote on decertification. in one of those president disclosed mike sharkey's personal phone number to his followers. >> all i remember is receiving just shy of 4000 text messages in a short time. calling to take action. and then there was a loud noise, loud consistent feedback. and we are hearing the trump folks are calling and asking for changes in electors and you guys can do this . well, there believing things. >> these effortsinvolve targeted outreach to state legislatures . >> my name is angela mccallum calling from the trump campaign headquarters in washington dc and you do have the power to reclaim your authority as legislative electors thatwill support president trump p and vice president pence . >> president trump's lawyers and trump himself . >> and i've become friendly withlegislators that i didn't know for weeks ago . >> another legislature house speaker brian cutler received daily notes from trump's lawyers in the last week of november. >> this mister speaker this is rudy giuliani and jenna ellis calling you because we liketo discuss obviously the election . >> this is jenna ellis and i'm here with mayor giuliani. >> brian, it's rudy. i have something important to call your attention to that i think it changes things. >> cutler felt outreach was inappropriate and asked his lawyers to tell rudy giuliani to stop calling but giuliani continued to reach out. >> i understand you don't want to talk to me now. i just want to bring some facts to your attention and talk to you as a fellow republican. >> on december 30 trump ally steve bannon announced a process that covers all. >> are going to cutler and we're going to start going to offices and if we have to going to go to homes and let them know what we think about them. >> i don't remember the exact number. it was at least three outside either mydistrict office or my home . and you're correct, my son then 15 years old was home by himself for the first one. all my information was documented online. it was my personal email, personal cell phone. my home number. we had to disconnect ourhome phone for about threedays because it would ring all hours of the night. it would fill up with messages .>> . >> poll watchers denied access. >> these were another element . the trump campaign spent millions of dollars running ads online and on television. >> the evidence is overwhelming. call your governor and legislatures . demand them here the evidence. >> public pressure on state sofficials in the lead up to january 6. >>. [chanting] >> let's go sessions. >> what are we going to do? what do you and i do as state legislatures? i'm not advising that. >> the punishment for treason is death. >> the state pressure campaign and the danger it posed to state officials and state capitals around the nation 's was a dangerous precursor to the violence we saw on january 6 at the us capitol. today you'll hear from rusty bowers republican speaker of the arizona house of representatives. he will tell us about his conversations with the president, rudy giuliani and john eastman and what the president's team asked of him and how his oath of office would not permit it . you'll then hear from brad raffensberger, republican secretary of state of georgia who trump directed to find 11,780 votes that did not exist. with just the exact number of votes needed to overtake joe biden. also hear from gabriel stirling chief operating officer about the spurious claims of fraud in the elections in georgia and who responding to a cascading set of threats to his elections team warned thepresident to stop . that someone was going to get killed. and you'll hear from andrea moss of former local elections worker in fulton county georgia about how all the lies about the election impacted the lives of real people to administer our elections. and still do. you'll hear what they experienced ouon the most powerful man in the world, president of the united states sought to cling to power after being voted out of office by the american people. the system held but barely. and the system held because people of courage, republicans and democrats like the witnesses you will hear today put their oath to the country and constitution above any other consideration . they did their jobs as we must do hours. thank you mister chairman and i yield back. >> i now welcome our first panel of witnesses. we're joined today by a distinguished legislator from arizona rusty bowers who is the republican speaker for the arizona house of representatives. mister bauer was first elected to the state legislature in 1993 and has served as speaker since 2019. welcome speaker bowers. brad raffensberger is the secretary of state of georgia serving in this role since 2019 . as an elected official and a republican, secretary raffensberger is responsible for supervising elections in georgia and maintaining the state's public records . welcome mister secretary. gabriel stirling is chief operating officer in the georgia secretary of state office . mister stirling was the statewide voting systems implementation manager for the 20/20 election in georgia , responsible for leading the secretary of state's response to the covid pandemic and rolling out modernized voting equipment . i will swear in our witnesses . if the witnesses willplease stand and raise their right hand . >> do you swear or affirm on penalty of perjury the testimony you're about togive is the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? thank whyou, please be seated . >> let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative . speaker bowers, thank you for being with us today. you're the speaker of the arizona house and a self-described conservative republican. you campaign for plant president trump during the 2020 election. is coit fair to say that you wanted donald trump to win a second term in office ? >> yes sir, thank you. >> and is it your understanding that president biden was the winner of the popular vote in arizona in 2020 ? >> yes sir. >> pursuant to section 5c8 of house resolution 503 the chair recognizes the gentleman from california mister schiff for questions. >> speaker bowers thank you for being with us today. before we begin with the questions i have prepared for you i wanted to ask you about a statement that former president trump issued which i received just prior to the hearing. have you had a chance to review that statement? >> my counsel called from arizona and read it to me. >> in that statement and i will read it it in its entirety former president a trump begins by calling you rino, republican in name only. he then references a conversation in 2020 in which he claims that you toldhim the election was ray , that we had one arizona. that's a quote from the president during the conversation. he told me the election was rigged and i one arizona, quote unquote. did you have such a conversation with the president? >> i did have a conversation n with the president. that certainly isn't it.wi there were parts of it that are true. there were parts of it that are not. >> and the part that i read you, is that false western mark. >> anywhere, anyone, anytime that said i said the election was rigged, that would not be true . >> and when the former president in his statement claimed that you told him that he one arizona, is also false? >> is also false. >> mister bowers i understand after the election and i don't know whether this is the conversation the anformer president is referring to but after the election you received a phone call from e president trump and rudy e giuliani in which they discussed the results of the presidential election in arizona. if you would tell us about that call and whether the former president or mister giuliani raised allegations of election fraud . >> thank you. my wife andi had returned from attending our church meetings on a sunday . and we were still in the driveway and i had k received a call from a colleague telling me the white house was trying to get in touch with her and that she said please, if you get a call let's try to take this together. immediately i saw the white house on my bluetooth was calling and i took the call and was asked by i would presume the operator at the white house if i would hold for the president which i did and mister giuliani came on first. and there were niceties. then president trump came on. and we initiated a conversation. during that conversation, did you ask mister giuliani for proof of theseallegations he was making ? >> on multiple occasions. >> and when you asked them for evidence what did he say? >> he said that they did have proof and i asked him do youhave names ? for example you have 200,000 illegal immigrants. some large number. five or 6000 deadpeople. etc. i said to you have their names ? yes. will you give them to me? yes. the president interrupted and said give theman what he needs . n he said i will. that happened on at least two occasions. that interchange . >> so mister giuliani was claiming there were hundreds of thousands of undocumented people and thousands of dead people who had purportedly voted in the election . >> ngyes. >> and you ask them for evidence of that. >> i did. >> did you ever received from him that evidence either during the call, after the call or to this day? >> what was the asked during this call? he was making his allegations of fraud he had a couple of things that they wanted you to do. what were those? >> once iremember were first that we would hold , that i would allow an official committee at the capital so that they could hear this evidence and that we could take action thereafter. and i refused. i said up to that time the circus, i called it the circus had been brewing with lots of demonstrations both at the counting center, the capital and other places and i didn't want to have that in the house. i did not feel that the evidence granted in its absence merits it and i didn't want to be used as up on. if there was some other need that the committee hearing would fulfill. so that was the first ask that we hold an official committee hearing. >> what was his second ask? >> i said to what end the hearing? he said well, we have heard by an official high up in the republican legislature that there is a legal theory or a legal ability in arizona that you can remove the electors of president biden and replace them and we would like to have the legitimate opportunity through the committee to come to that and and remove that and i said that's totally new to me. i've never heard of any such thing . and he pressed that point and i said look, you are asking me to do something that is counter to my oath when i swore to the constitution to uphold it and i also swore to the constitution and the laws of the state of arizona and this is totally foreign as an idea or a theory to me and i would never do anything of such magnitude without deep consultation with qualified attorneys and i said i've got some goodattorneys and i'm going to give you their names . but you're asking me to do something against michael and i will not break my oath . and i think that was up to that point e. >> during the conversation you heard i think a snippet of mister giuliani calling other state legislatures and saying he was calling is essentially a low republican. did he make a similar appeal or bring up the factthat he shared a similar party ? >> what was in the call hedid bring that up more than once . >> he would say art we all republicans here? i wouldthink we would get a better reception . i would think you would listen a littlemore openly to my suggestions, we're all republican . >> and this evidence that you asked him for that would justify this extraordinary step, i think you said they never produced. why did you feel in the absence of that evidence or with what they were asking you to do would violate your oath to the constitution . >> first of all when the people and in arizona i believe it's some 40+ years earlier the legislature had established the matter of electing ourofficials . or the electors for the presidential race. once it was given to the people as in bush versus gore illustrated by the supreme court it becomes a fundamental right of the people. so as far as i was concerned for someone to ask me and i'm call it the paucity. there was no evidence being presented of any strength. evidence can be hearsay evidence, it's still evidence but it's hearsay but strong judicial quality evidence. anything that would say to me you have a doubt. deny your oath. i will not do that. and on more than one occasion throughout all this that has been brought up and it is a tenet of my faith that the constitution is divinely inspired. it is one of my most basic foundational beliefs. for me to do that because somebody asked me to is foreign to my very being. i will not do it. >> during that conversation supervisor bowers, did you ask him what he was proposing had ever been done before >> i did . >> i said i'm not familiar with any arizona law but i don't think so. and that also was brought up in other conversations both with him and for with john eastman and others. >> i understand the week after that call mister giuliani appeared with others associated with the attempt to overturn the election purportedly a hearing at a hotel ballroom in phoenix. was this an official hearing of the state legislature? >> it was not . >> and why was it not a real sport official hearing? >> a legislature can hold me hearing. he can call it a hearing. but when they asked me to have an official hearing, we establish it by protocols. public notice. etc. it's typically held at the capital but doesn't need tobe . we can authorize the hearing off-campus. and in this case i had been ,asked on several occasions to allow for hearing. i denied it. but said you're free to hold a meeting, any meeting you want to the person left which he ultimately did.he was a little frustrated but he ultimately did. >> this meeting was the same day i believe the governor of arizona certified by as the winner of the election in arizona. did you meet with mister giuliani and his associates while they were in phoenix on time after that purported legislative hearing? >> yes i did. >> at that meeting did mister giuliani raise any specific allegations of election fraud again? >> 'sinitial comments were again the litany of groups of illegal individuals or people deceased, etc. and he had brought that up and i wasn't alone in that meeting. there were others and other members of the senate aggressively questioned him and then i proceeded to question him on the proof that he was going to bring me, etc. but you did bring those up. >> these other legislators oc were also republican members of the senate ? >> they were. >> today also press you p brought for proof of this allegation ?e >> they pressed them very h strongly. two of them especially very strongly. >> and at some point did mister giuliani ask one of the other attorneys on his team to help him out with the evidence? >> he did, he asked jenna ellis who was sitting to his right. one thing was that it was more to the point of was there sufficient evidence or action that we could justify the recalling of the electors but that part of the conversation i know he review referred to someone else but he did ask do we have to proof to miss ellis and she said yes. and i said i want the names. do you have the names? yes. do you have how they voted we have all the information . i said can you get to me that information? did you bring it with you? she said no. both mister giuliani asked her and i asked generally if they had brought it withthem. she said no it's not with me but we can get it to you . i said and you didn't bring the evidence which was repeated in iterations. >> at some point did one of them make a comment that they didn't have evidence but they had a lot of theories? >> that was mister giuliani. >> what did he say? >> my recollection is we've got a lot of theories, we just don't have the evidence and i don't know if it was a gap or he didn't think through what he said but both myself and others in my group three in my group and in my counsel both remembered that specifically and afterwards people laughed about it. >> getting back to the asking that phone call that preceded this meeting , he wanted you to have the legislature dismiss biden electors and introduce them to trumpet electors based on these theories abroad? >> he did not see it in those words but he did say that arizona law according to what he understood that that would be allowed and we need to come into session to take care of that which initiated a discussion about what i can legally and not legally do and i can go into session in arizona unilaterally or on my sole prerogative . >> at this meeting or any related time or did anyone provide you with evidence of election fraud suspicions? >> no one provided me ever ee such evidence. >> the select committee has uncovered evidence in the course of our investigation of protests at state capitals across the country where individuals with ties to the groups of partiesinvolved in the january 6 attack on the us capital . one of those incursions took place in the arizona house of representatives as you cansee in this footage . >> this is previously undisclosed video of protesters illegally entering or refusing to leave the building. one of the individuals prominently shown in this video is jacob chandler. perhaps better known as the schiff shaman he was photographed leaving a threatening note on the dais of the chamber and was ultimately sentenced to 41 months in prison . afterpleading guilty to instruction of an official proceeding . other protesters who occupied arizona house of representatives building included proud boys men armed with rifles stood just outside the entrance. understood these protesters were calling for you by name peter bowers, is that correct? >> that is correct. >> bowers to the president call you again later in december can mark. >> he gives her. >> did you tell the president in that second callyou supported him , that you voted for him but that you were not going to do anything illegal for him and mark. >> cited. >> nonetheless his lawyer kevin eastman called you some days later june 4 2020 21. and he did have a very specific task that would have required you to do what you had already 4ttold the president you wouldn't do something that would violate your oath. is that correct? >> that was correct. i had my counsel and others online.>> and what did doctor eastman want you to do? >> that we would in fact take a vote to overthrow or i shouldn't say overthrow. that we would decertify the electors and that because we had plenary authority to do so. and he cited article 2 section 1. i think it was klaus 2 . and said that in his opinion that gave us the authority. i don't recall him saying g sufficient evidence that there was some call or some strong reason to do so or justification to do so that we could do that. that he was asking, his suggestion was that we would do it. i said again, i took an oath. for me to take that to do what you do would be counter to my oath. i don't recall if it was in that conversation clearly but we talked more about the oath but i said what would you have me do? and he said just do it and let the courts sorted out. and i said you're asking me to do something that's never been done in the history of the united states. and i'm going to put my state through that without sufficient proof? and that's going to be good enough for me? that i would put us through that. my state, that i swore to uphold both in constitution and in law. no sir. he said well, my suggestion would be just do it and let the courts figure it all out. and i didn't use that exact phrase but that's what his meeting was and i declined and i believe that was close to the end of our phone call. >> and again this took place after you had recently spoken with president trump and told him you wouldn't do anything illegal for him, isthat right ? >> it wasn't days after, obviously it was days after a a few days. >> but you had told president trump you would notdo anything illegal for him >> i did both times . >> and you told doctor eastman you did not believe there was legal support to justify what he was asking but he still wanted you to do it and effectively let the courts sorted out . >> asi had been warned don't say things you think maybe he said l. but i do remember him saying that the authority of the legislature was plenary. and that you can do it. i said then youshould know i can't even call the legislature into session without a two thirds majority vote . we're only 30+1. there's no way that could happen. >> but in your view what he was asking you to do would violate your oath both to the united states constitution and constitution of the state of arizona. >> yes sir. >> did you receive a call from andy diggs of arizona the morning of january 6? >> i did. >> and what did mister biggs ask you to do? >> that was the day the vote was occurring to each state to add certification or to declare the certification of the electors. and he asked if i would sign on both to a letter that had been sent from my state and for that i would support the decertification of the electors and i said i would not. >> tmister speaker on december 4, at2020 shortly after your meeting with rudy giuliani and other allies of president ertrump released a statement publicly addressing calls for the legislature to overturn the 20/20 eccertified election results. the statement is very straightforward in explaining the quote breathtaking request made by representatives of president trump. quote, thatesthe arizona legislature overturn the certified results of last month's election and deliver electoral college votes to president trump . why did you believe as you wrote in the statement that the rule of law forbid you from doing what president trump and his allies wanted you to do ? >> representative, i'm sorry. i should be saying mister chairman. there's two sides to the answer. one is what am i allowed to do and what am i forbidden to do? we have no legal pathway both in state law nor to my knowledge and federal law for us to execute such a request. and i am not allowed to walk or act eons my authority. if i'm not specifically authorized as a legislator then i cannot act. to the point of calling us into session. some say that just a few legislators haveplenary authority . and that this is part of all this discussion. so do not have authority and be forbidden to act my beyond my authority on both counts i am not authorized to take such action and thatwould deny my oath . >> in your statement you included excerpts from president ronald reagan's inaugural address in 1981. the newly inaugurated president pulled the country , the orderly transfer of authority is called for in the constitution routinely takes place as it has for almost 2 centuries and few of us stop to think orhow unique we really are. in the eyes of many in the world this every four-year ceremony we accept as normal is nothing less then a miracle. tell us if you would mister speaker why did you include president reagan's words in your publicstatement ? >> mister chairman representative schiff because i have a lot of admiration for ronaldreagan . i've had the opportunity of going to his own with one other person walking through. i have a lot of admiration for him. when he pointed out which i have lived in other countries for a period of time and have visited a few countries and during election time the fact that we allow an election, support an election and stand behind an election even in the past when there have been serious questions about an election and then move on without disturbance and with acceptance that we choose to follow the outcome of the will of the people. that will mean a lot to me and i know it meant a lot to him so i included that. >>. >> thank you speaker. i now want to look even more deeply at the stake electors scheme.every four years citizens from all over the united states go to the polls to elect their president. under our constitution when we cast our votes for president we are voting to send electors pledged to our preferred candidate to the electoral college. in december the electors in each state meet, cast their votes and send those votes to washington. there is only one legitimate slate of electors from each state. on the sixth day of january meets in a joint session to count those votes and the winner of the electoral college book becomes the president. in his next segment you'll hear how president trump and his campaign were involved in advancing and coordinating the plot to replace legitimate biting electors with fake electors chosen by the voters. you'll hear how this campaign to convince these fake electors arto cast and submit their covotes through fake certificates telling them their votes would only be used in the event president trump won his legal challenges. yet when the president lost those legal challenges when courts rejected them as frivolous and without merit theelectors scheme continued . at this point president trump's own lawyers so-called team normal walked away rather than participate in the plan and his own white house counsel's office said that the plan was not legally sound. let's play the following video producedby the select committee . >> i'm an investigative counsel for the house select committee to investigate a january 6 attack on november 18 a lawyer working with the trump campaign named kenneth heathrow wrote a memo arguing the trump campaign should organize itsown electors in swing states that president trump had lost . this testimony that those close to president trump began framing to organize the electors for trump in states that biden one in the weeks after the election. >> who do you remember being involved in those early discussions around thanksgiving time regarding having alternate electors meet? >> mister giuliani , mister meadows. members of congress although it's difficult to distinguish if they are involved in december. >> the president's request the campaign in for knitting members. >> what did the president say? >> essentially he turn the call over to mister eastman who then proceeded to talk about the importance of that the rnc helping the campaign gather these contingents electors in case any of the legal challenges that were ongoing changed the results of caany states. i think just helping them reach out but my understanding is the campaign didn't take the lead and we just weren't helping them that fraud. >> and his supporters can do to lose lawsuits somelawyers became convinced convening electors in states trump loss was no longer appropriate . >> i either replied or called somebody saying unless we have litigation pending in these states i don't think this is appropriate. this isn't the right thing to do. i don't remember how i igphrased it but we had a little bit of a back-and-forth and i think it was ken that said all right, just get after it. >> at that point i had josh finley emailed mister hasbro politely to say this is your task. you are responsible for the electoral college issues moving forward. and this was my way of taking that responsibility. >> the committee learn the white house counsel's office felt the plan was potentially illegal. >> to be fair did you hear the white house counsel's office say this plan to have electors meet and cast votes for donald trump in that he lost was now legally sound? >> yes sir. >> .. strong part of me feels as the road continued and as the failure, failure, failure that that got formulated is what we have on the table. let's just do it. >> and now after what we told you today about the select committees investigation about the conclusion of the congressional lawyers on the campaign staff, justin clark, matt morgan and josh findley about their unwillingness tobo participate in the convening of these electors, how does that contribute to understanding of these issues? >> i'm angry. i'm angry because i think, i think in a sense, you know, no one really cared if people were potentially putting themselves in jeopardy. >> would you not want to participate in this any further as well? >> i absolutely would not have had i known the three main lawyers for the campaign that i've spoken to in the past and were leading up were not on board. yeah. >> i was told these would only count if a a court ruled in or favor. so that would have been using our electors, well, it would've been using our electors in ways that we weren't told about and we wouldn't have supported. >> documents obtained by the select committee indicate instructions were given to the electors in several states that the need to cast ballots in complete secrecy. because of the scheme involved states electors those participating in certain states had no way to comply with state election laws like where the electors were supposed to be. they considered hiding overnight to ensure they could access the state capital as required in michigan. >> did mr. norton say who he was working with at all on this effort to have electors meet? >> he said he was working with the president and the campaign. he told me that the michigan republican electors were planning to meet inn the capital and hide overnight so that they could fulfill the role of casting their vote per law in the michigan chambers. and i told him in no uncertain terms that was insane and appropriate. >> in one state state electors even asked or promised the campaign would pay their legal fees if they got sued or charged with a crime to ultimately state electors did meet on december 14, 2020, an arizona, georgia, michigan, pennsylvania, new mexico, nevada and wisconsin. at the request of thehe trump campaign electors from the battleground states states signed documents falsely asserting they were the duly electorsof from the state and submittedgr to the national archives and the vice president pence in his capacity as president of the senate. >> there is what some of the fake certificates look like a part of the ones. >> these had no legal effect. in either produced to the select committee dr. eastman told a trump campaign representative it did not matter that the electors had not been approved by state authority. quote, the fact that with multiple states of electors demonstrate the uncertainty of either. that should be enough picky arched pins act boldly and be challenged.lt documents produced show the trump campaign took steps to ensure the physical copies of this fake electors allocable votes from two states were delivered to washington for january 6th. text messages exchanged between republican party officials in wisconsin showed on january 4 the trump campaign asked for someone to fly their fakeng electors document to washington a staffer for wisconsin senator ron johnson texted a staffer for vice president pence minutes before the beginning of the joint session. this staffer stated senator johnson wish to hand-deliver to the vice president the folks from michigan and wisconsin. thee vice presidents aid and ambiguously instructed them not to deliver the fake votes to the vice president. >> even though the fake electors sleep were transmitted to congress the vice president held firm in a position that his role was to count falsely submitted electoral votes. >> joseph r. biden junior of the state of delaware has received 306 votes. donald j. trump from the state of florida has received 232 votes. >> which is what he did when the joint session resumed on january 6th after the attack on the capitol. >> we just heard in that video was in a to the white house chief of staff telling this committee for the white house counsel's office help that the sake electors plan was not legally sound.a nevertheless, the trump campaign went forward with the scheme anyway. speaker bowers, we aware that fake electors met in phoenix on december 14 and purported to cast electoral votes for president trump? >> i was not. >> when you learned these electors had met and set their electoral votes to washington, what did you think? >> well, i thought that the book the gang that couldn't shoot straight, and i just thought this is, this is a tragic parity. >> mr. bowers, i understand as you flew from phoenix washington yesterday, you reflected upon some passages from a personal journal that you're keeping in december 2020 what all this was taking place. with your permission i am wondering if you would be willing to share one passage in particular with us. >> thank you very much. it is painful to have friends who have been such a help to me turn on me with such rancor. i may in the eyes of man not hold correct opinions or act according to the vision or convictions, but i do not take this current situation in a like manner, a fearful manner, or a vengeful manner. i do not want to be a winner by cheating. i will not play with laws i swore allegiance to. with any contrived desire towards deflection of my deep foundational desire to follow god's will, as i believe he led my conscience to embrace. how else will i ever approach him in the wilderness of life, knowing that i ask of this guidance only to show myself a coward in defending the course he let me take -- he led me to take. thank you, mr. speaker. those are powerful words. >> understand taking the courageous positions that you did following the 2020 election in defense ofo the rule of law protecting the voters of arizona resulted inn you and your family being subjected to protests and a terrible threats. can you tell us how this impacted you and your family? >> well, as others in the videos have mentioned, we received, my secretaries would say in excess of 20,000 h e-mails and tens of thousands of voicemails and texts which saturated our offices and we were unable to work, at least communicate. but at home up till even recently it is the new pattern, or a pattern in our lives, what will worry about what will happen on saturdays because we have various groups come by and they have had video panel trucks with videos of me proclaim to be to be a pedophile and a pervert and a corrupt politician, and blaring loudspeakers in my neighborhood and leaving literature both on my property and arguing and threatening with the neighbors and with myself. i don't know if i should name groups but there was one gentleman who had the three bars on his chest, and he had a pistol and was threatening of my neighbor not with the pistol but just vocally. when i saw the gun i knew i had to get close. and at the same time on some of these we had a daughter who was gravely ill, who was upset by what was happening outside. and my wife, a valiant person, very strong, quiet, very strong woman. so it was disturbing. it was disturbing. >> esther speaker, i want to thank you for your service to the state off arizona and to the country. mr. chairman, at this point i think would be appropriate to take a short recess. i reserve the balance of my tim time. >> thed chair requests that the in the hearing room remain seated until the capitol police have escorted members and witnesses from the room. we will have five minutes, five-minute recess. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> and the genuine six committee in a break now. this first portion has run about an hour. just heard from the republican speaker of the house of arizona, rusty bowers. still to give testimony today officials from george including secretary of state brad raffensperger. if you missed any of the units we will be showing it again this evening at 9 p.m. eastern on c-span. members have been focusing on how former president trump pressured georgia and arizona officials to influence the outcome of the vote in those states. again the hearing expected to resume shortly. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> the genuine six committee is in a short break. members have been focusing on how former president trump pressured georgia and arizona officials to influence the outcome of the vote in those states. today's lead questioner iss adam schiff, who represents california's 28th district 411 terms. he sits on the house judiciary committee and he participated in both of the impeachment proceedings against former president trump. mr. schiff was both an attorney and the prosecutor before serving in congress. today's channel six committee hearings and all of c-span's program is brought to you as a public service by the cable industry and these television companies including comcast and u-verse. you are watching and continue watching the hearing on the go with c-span now, our free mobile video app. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> the committee will be in order. president trump's pressure campaign against state officials existed in all the key battleground states that he lost. the former president at a particular obsession with georgia. here is the president on the afternoon of january 6th, after his own attorney general warned him that the claims you are about to hear are patently false. >> you should find those votes. they should absolutely find them. just over 11,000 votes, that's all we need. they defrauded as out of a win in georgia and we're not going to forget it. >> so the state of georgia is where we will turn our attention to next. i wantor to emphasize that our investigation into these issues is still ongoing. as i stated in our last hearing, if you have relevant information or documentary evidence to share with the select committee, we welcome your cooperation. y we will share some of our findings with you today. secretary raffensperger, thank you for being here today. event a public servant in georgia since 2015 serving first as a member of the georgia house of representatives, and then since january 2019 as georgia's secretary of state. as a self-described conservative republican, is it fair to say that you wanted president trump to win the 2020 election? >> yes, it is. >> secretary, many witnesses have told the select committee that election date november third, 2020, was a largely uneventful day in their home states. in spite of the challenges of conducting an election during a pandemic, you wrote in the "washington post" that the election was, quote, suppressed. tell us, what was your impression of how election day had proceeded in georgia? >> on election day in november our election went remarkably smooth. in fact, we meet at the headquarters, georgia energy emergency management association, meeting location but we are following wait times in line and afternoon our average wait time was three minutes.s. statewide that we were recording for various precincts. it actually got down to two minutes. att the end of the day we felte had a successful election from the standpoint of the administration of the operation of the election. >> thank you. the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. schiff. >> thank you, mr. chairman. secretary raffensperger, did joe biden win the 2020 election in georgia and by what margin? >> president biden carried the state of georgia by approximately 12,000 votes. >> and as i understand your office took several steps to ensure the accuracy of the vote countim in georgia. reviewing the vote count in at least three different ways. the steps include a machine recount, a forensic audit, and a full hand recount of every one of the 5 million ballots cast. did these efforts including a recount literally of every ballot cast in a state of georgia confirmed the result? >> yes, they did. we counted the ballots the first tablet would be scanned. then when we get our 100% hand audit of the entire all 5 million ballots in the state of georgia, all casting plays, all absentee ballots they were all hand recount and they came the first close to count. and thenmiot upon the election g certified, president trump because he was within i have person that could ask for recount and we recount the make and through the scanners so we get remark will be the same counter three counts all remarkably close which show that president trump did come up short. >> nevertheless, as you'll see the president and his allies begin making numerous false allegations of voter fraud.. false allegations that you and mr. sterling among others have to address. mr. sterling, thankme you also r being here today. following the 2020 election in addition to your normal duties i understand you became the spokesperson to try too combate this information about the election and the danger it was creating for elections officials among others. ended december 1 press conference you addressed some of your remarks directed to president trump. let's take a look at what you said that day. >> mr. president, it looks like you likely lost the state of georgia. we are investigating. there's always a possibility, i did he come get the rights to go to the courts. but you don't have the ability to do and you need to step up and say this is stop firing -- someone is going to get hurt, someone is going to get shot, someone is going to get killed. it's not right. i, i -- it's not right. >> mr. sterling what prompted you to make these remarks? >> we had a prince is scheduled press conference that day as we were in the habit of doing try to guess trestman as we could about the election and accounts going on. a little after lunch that day comes lunchtime, i received a call from the project manager for dominion voting systems who was oddly audibly shaken. she is not the kind of person ic would assume that isn't with she had a massive stability, very much on the ball and pretty unstoppable. she informed me about a young contractor they had who would been receiving threats from a video that posted by some qanon supporters. at that point we had been sort of in steeping and discussed up so it was around us all the time so i didn't take note of it, more adding to the pile of stuff we were dealing with. and i did pull up a twitter andt i scrolled through it and i saw the young man's name. it was a particular tweet which for the lack of edward was the straw that broke the camel's back. had a young man's name, very unique and copley first-generation american, and had his name, you committed treason, make i have mercy on your soul, with a slowly twisting gift of a noose, and for lack of a better word i lost it. i just got irate. my boss was with me at the time, the deputy secretary, she could tell that i was angry. i tend to turn red from here out when that happens, and that happened at that time. she called secretary raffensperger to say we're seeing these kindor of threats d again gave thinks we need to say something about it. the secretary said yes, and that's what helped me to do what i did. i lost my temper but it seems necessary at the time because it was juste getting worse and i couldn't say why that particular one of put it over the edge but it did. >> after you made this plea to the president, did donald trump urges supporters to avoid the use of violent? >> not to my knowledge. >> as we know the president was aware of your speech because he tweeted about it later that day. let's take a look at what the president said. >> in the tweet, donald trump claims that there was, quote, massive voter fraud in georgia. mr. sterling that was just plain false, wasn't it? >> yes, sir. >> nevertheless, the very next day on december 2, president trump release a link the video again making false claims of election fraud in georgia. let's take a look at what he said this time. >> they found thousands and thousands of votes that were out of whack. all against me.ou >> in fact, the day after donald trump released that video, so now we're talking just two days after the emotional warning that you gave that someone is going to get killed, representatives of president trump appeared in georgia including rudy giuliani and launched a new conspiracy theory that would take on a life of its own and threatened the lives of several innocent election workers. this story falsely alleges that sometime during election night, at the stateers arena in atlanta, georgia,el kicked out poll observers. after the observers left, the story goes, these workers polled so-called suitcases about some under a table and ran those ballots through counting machines multiple times. completely without evidence president trump and his allies claimed thatt these suitcases contained as many as 18,000 ballots all for joe biden. none of this was true. rudy giuliani appeared before the georgia state senate and played a surveillance video from state farmer arena falsely claiming that it showed this conspiracy taking place. here's a sample of what mr. giuliani had to say during that hearing. >> and when you look at what you saw on the video which to me was a smoking gun, powerful smoking gun, well, i don't, don't have to be a genius to figure out what happened. i don't have t to be a genius to figure out that those votes are not legitimate votes. you don't put legitimate votes under a table. >> no. >> wait at the use of the opposition out and in the middle of the night counter them. we would have to be fools to think that. >> president trump's campaign amplified his false testimony in the tweet, pushing out the beautiful district giuliani likewise push out assessment on social media. as you can see in this tweet mr. giuliani wrote it was quote now beyond doubt unquote that fulton county democrats had stolen the election. later in this hearing we will hear directly from one of the election workers in this video. about the effects these lies had on her and on her family. mr. sterling, diddi the investigators in your officerk reviewed the entirefe surveillae tape from the state farm arena on election night? >> they actually reviewed approximately 48 hours going over thee time period were actin was taking place at the counting center at the state farm arena. >> what did the tape actually show? youepending on which time want to start because as was mentioned this conspiracy theory took on a life of its own where they conflated a water main break the wasn't a water main break and throwing observers at industries of other things. what it actually showed was fulton county election workers engaging in normal ballot processing. one of the specific things, one of the things that was very frustrated was the so-called suitcases of ballots from under the table. if you watch the entirety of the video, you saw it that these were election workers who were under the impression they were going to get to go home around ten, 10:30 p.m. people were putting on the coats, putting ballots prepared to be scanned into ballot carriages that are sealed withts tamperproof seals so you know they're not messed with. and it's an interesting thing because you want -- there are four screens and video. as you're watching it you could seek the election monitors in the corner with the press as they aresu taking these and putting them under the table. you see it there. one of the other hip and once if you look at the actual tape was on the outside of the table, this goes under the no good deed goes unpunished, we were told, we were at geema as a sector put out and we were told it look like they were shutting down fulton countyy counting. the secretary explicit some displeasure because one took anybody keep counting so we could get to the results. so our elections director called their elections director who was at another location because this was election day. there were two different places where ballot things are being done by the fulton county office. so he called the director called ralph jones who was at the state farm arena and said what the heck are you c doing? go ahead and stay. as you c watch the video itself you see him take the phone call, as people putting away getting ready to leave. you can tell for about 15, 20 seconds he does not want to tell these people they have to stay. he walks over, thinks about it, you seem comee back to the cornr of the desk of slumps his shoulders as rent to keep county. county. you see them take their clothes off, get the ballots out and in the secondary thing you see on there is you will have people are counting ballots through a patch will go through, they'll take them off and run them through it again what happens is a standard operating procedure that if there's a scan, misalignment, if it doesn't read right, these high-speed high-capacity scanners. so three or four or go through after ao missed scan. delete that badge and put it back through again. and by going through the hand tally the secretary jewell pointed out, we showed that there than multiple ballots scanned without a corresponding physical ballot come your count would've been a lot higher than the ballots themselves. by doing the hand tally we saw to make specific numbers that were met. theic hand tally count as 2.105% of the total votes 3% of the total votes casth and .0099% on the margin which is essentially dead on accurate. most academic steady-state and had tell you have between one 2% but because we just ballot marking devices where it is very clear with the voter intended makes it easier to conduct the hand count and showed that none of that was true. >> i understand when you reviewed of these tapes and did the analysis it disproves this conspiracy theory. but you still had to take a lot of steps to try to make sure the public knew the truth about these allegations and you did frequent briefings for the press let's take a look at one of those press briefings, mr. sterling, you held onn december 7, to make the point you just did today. >> move on to what i'm going to call disinformation monday. out of the gate many of you all solve the videotape from state farm arena.e i spent hours with our post certified investigators, spent hours with is going over this video to explain to people that what you saw the secret suitcase, magic ballots were actually ballots that it been packed into those absentee ballot carriers by the workers in plain view of the monitors and the press. and what's really frustrating is the president attorneys had the same videotape. they saw the exact same things the rest of us can see and they chose to mislead state senators and the public about what was on that video. i am quite sure they will not characterize the video to enter into evidence because that can lead to sanctions, because it's obviously untrue. they knew it was untrue and they continue to do things like this. >> mr. sterling despite the efforts by office to combat this misinformation by speaking out publicly and through local media, you were unable to match the reach of president trump's platform and social media megaphone spreading these false conspiracy theories. what was it like to compete with the the president who had the biggest bully pulpit in the world to push out these false claims? >> for lack of a better word it wass frustrating but oftentimesi felt our information was getting out, that there was a reticence of people who needed to believe it because the president of the united states who many looked up to and respected was telling them it wasn't true. despite thehe facts and i have characterized at onee point is kind of like a shovel trying to empty the ocean. and yes, it was frustrating. i even have family members who i had to argue with about some of these things. i would showto them things and e problem you have is you get into people's hearts. i remember there was one specific attorney that we know that we showed walking through this wasn't true, okay i get that. this wasn't true, i get that. five or six things but at the end he says i i just know in y heart they cheated. and so once you get past the heart the facts don't matter as much. and our job from our point of view was to get the facts out, do our job, tell the truth, follow the constitution, follow the law and defend the institutions. and the institutions held. >> let's take a look at what you were competing with. this is the former president speaking and george on december 5.t >> the fraud is overwhelming and again i'm going to ask you tode look up at that very, very powerful and very expensive screen. >> hidden cases, possible ballots are rolled out from asunder a table. four people under a cloud of suspicion. >> so if you just take the crime of what those democrat workers were doing, and by the way there was no water main break. you know they said -- there was a water main break. that's ten times more than i need to win this stage, ten times more. it's ten times maybe more than that but it is ten times more because we lost by a very close number. >> this committee's hearing last monday went from senior federal law enforcement officials from the seniormost federal law enforcement official in the lane at the time, just attorney for the northern district dj pack, as well as former attorney general bill barr. they both tested by the allegations were thoroughly investigated and found to have nono merit. here is u.s. attorney pack. >> i told him that we look into it, we've done severalal things including interviewing the witnesses. i listened to the tapes and reviewed videotape myself, and there'sdi nothing there. giuliani was wrong representing the suitcase full of ballots. >> and here's what attorney general bill barr hadas to say about the same allegations. >> took a look him hard look>> t this ourselves and based on our review of it including the interviews of the key witnesses, the fulton county allegations had no merit. >> we also testimony from senior department of justice officials and establishing that they specifically told president trump that these allegations had been thoroughly investigated and were completely without merit. here's acting attorney deputy attorney general richard donahue describing a phone conversation which he specifically told president trump that these allegations were false. >> kept fixating on the suitcase that supposed had fraudulent ballots and the suitcase was rolled out from under the table, and i said no, sir, there is a suitcase. you can watch that video over and over. there is no suitcase. been wherewheeled they were kept. >> where they carried the ballots. no matter how many times senior department of justice officials, including his own attorney general told the president that these allegations were not true, president trump kept promoting these lies and putting pressure on state officials to accept them. january 2 thent president had a lengthy telephone conversation with secretary raffensperger. prior to the president called though i want to share a bit of an important context. first, the lighthouse including the former presidents chief ofo staff mark meadows repeatedly called or texted the secretary's office some 18 times in order to set up this call. they were quite persistent. second, chief of staff mark meadows took the extraordinary step of showingm up at his signature audit site in georgia where he met with secretary raffensperger is chief investigator who was supervising that audit process. behind is a photograph from that visit. third, the day after meadows georgia visit he set up a call between president trump and francis watson. on the call between president trump and georgia investigator francis watson, the former president continued to push the false claim that he had won the state of georgia. let's listen to that part of the conversation.at >> you have the most important job in the country right now because if wee win georgia, fit of all if we when you have two wins. they are not going to win right now. you know that. because the people off georgia are so angry, they know i want, one by hundredsht of thousands f votes.s.kn wasn't close. and in this next clip he told the state law enforcement official that she would be praised if she found the right answer. >> you know, when the right answer comes at you will be praised. i mean, i don't know why they made it so hard. they will be praised. people will say great because that's what it's about, to make a record is anyone else knows it's wrong. there's just nopl way. >> mr. raffensperger, i know you went on this call but you listened to it. president trump didn't win by hundreds of thousands of votes in georgia, did he? >> no, he did not. i've been traveling through the state of georgia for a year now, and simply put in a nutshell, what happened in the fall of 2020 is at 28,000 georgians skipped the presidential race and yet they voted down ballot in other races, and the republican congressman ended up getting 33,000 more votes than president trump and that's why president trump came up short. >> thank you, mr. secretary. the president on this call doesn't stop here. let's listen to another part of the conversation between president trump and ms. watson. >> but whatever you couldt do, francis, it is a great thing, it's an important thing for the country, so important. you have no idea it's it so important. i very much appreciate it. >> whatever you can do, francis. this is the president of united states calling an investigator looking into the election which he is a candidate and asked her to do whatever you can do. mr. secretary, you place this call to your chief investigator in september 23, 2020. we received text messages and getting mark meadows wanted to send some of the investigators in her office and the words of one white house aide shit load of potus stuff including coins, actual autograph maga hats, soda. why housestaff intervened to make sure that didn't happen. it was clear at the time of this call that the former president had his sights set on january 6. listen to this portion when he told frances watson about a very important date. >> be working after christmas, keep it going because -- it's a very important d date. >> that important date of course was a joint session of congress wereno georgia's electoral votes would be counted for joe biden. a little over a a week after s call to frances watson the present was finally able to speak with you, secretary raffensperger. bear in mind as we discussed this call today that by this point in time early january the election in georgia had already been certified but perhaps more important the president of the united states had already been told repeatedly by his own top justice officials that the claims it's about to make to you about massive fraud in georgia were completely false. mr. secretary, the call between you and the president lasted 67 minutes, over an hour. we obvious he can't listen to the entire recording here today although it is available on select committees website but we will listen to selected excerpts of it as we can get your insights. let's beginis with the president raising the debunked allegations of suitcases of ballots. >> and an official border box, they were in what looked to be suitcases or trunks, suitcases, but they weren't in voter boxes. the minimum number itre could be because we watched it and they watched it to certify in slow motion, instant replay, you can believe, but had slow motion and it was magnified many times over, and the minimum it was was 18,000 ballots all for biden. >> these are the allegation that a proper justice, the attorney general, the georgia. of investigation and her office had all said were false, is that right? >> correct. and even more importantly, when bjay pak resigned as u.s. attorney of the northern district, president trump appointed as acting u.s. attorney of the northern district body christine, bobby christine looked at that and he was quoted that he found nothing and he dismissed the case early on. >> thank you, mr. secretary the present references suitcases or trunks. mr. sterling, where the objects seen in his video suitcases or trunks over the just the ordinary containers used by election worker? >> they are standard ballot carriers that allow for seals to be put on them so they are tamperproof. >> the president claims the with a minimum of 18,000 ballots, somehow smuggled in all for biden. i take it that was also categorically false? >> there's no, there's a physical way he could know who those ballots were four but secondarily we had fulton county for years has been an issue in our state when? it comes to elections so they had a very difficult time duringfo the primary in large part because f covid. so we have put them under a consent decree that secretary negotiated where a monitor on site, and his famous carter jones and he took the notation, he had gone from state farm to the english street warehouse to look at election day activities but before he left state farm arena he noted how many ballots had been counted on each one of the machines, and when he came back after we found that they werehe working again he took noe against and when they closed, and doubly the final number was something rent 8900 total ballots can from time he left to the time about 12:30 r 1:00 in the morning, so well below 18,000. >> let's play the next clip. >> i said that there is no way but they dropped a lot of votes in their late at night, you know that, brad. >> mr. secretary, did somebody dropped a lot of votes their late at night? >> no. i believe the president was referring to some of the counties when they would upload but the ballots have all been accepted, had to be accepted by state law by 7 p.m. so there were no additional ballots accepted after 7 p.m. >> let's play the next clip in which the president makes claims about so-called dead voters. >> the other thing, dead people, so dead people voted and i think the number is close to 5000 people. and they wentt to obituaries. they went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minima is close to about 5000 voters. >> so did your office and asking whether those allegations were accurate? get 5000 dead people in georgia vote? >> no, it's not accurate. actually in their lawsuit alleged 10,315 dead people. we found to make that people when i wrote i wrote my letter to congress dated january 6, subs were two that two more. that is four people, not 4000 just a total of four, not 10,000, not 5000, not 5000. >> let's play the next clip. >> and there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you recalculated. because 2236 absentee ballots, they six absentee ballots, they are all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms, law firms, et cetera. even if you cut them in half, cut them ini half and cut themn half again it's more votes than we need. >> mr. secretary, is it anyway you could lawfully changedn the result ind the state of georgia and send out explained it away as a recalculation?wa >> no. the numbers are the numbers. the numbers don't lie. we had many allegations and we investigatedan every single onef them. in fact, i challenge my team didn't miss anything? they said there was over 66,000 thousand underage voters. we found there's actually two. you can register to vote in georgia when you're 171 half. you have to be 18. we check that out every single vote. they said there's 2423 nonregistered voters. there was you. they said the 2056 felons. we identified less thousand 56 felons. we identified less than 74 or less. every single allegation we checked, we ran down the rabbit trail to make sure that our numbers were accurate. >> so there's no way you could of recalculated except by fudging the numbers? >> the numbers with the numbers and we could not recalculate because we make sure we have checked every single allegationm we had many investigations, nearly 300 from the 2020 election. >> mr. secretary, you tried to push back when the president made these unsupported claims, whether they were about suitcases of ballots or biden of votes were counted three times. let's play the next clip. >> mr.ed president, they did no, we get an audit of that and we proved conclusively that they were not scant three times to mr. president we will send you the link that speedy i don't care about a link. i don't need it. we are going to much better -- >> you told the president you would send him the link from wsb which understand his localal television station that had an edited data from the state farm arena. the president wasn't interested in the turkey said hehi had a mh better link.k. mr. secretary, at the time that you're on the call with the president as we shall both the fbi and the georgia bureau of investigation have proven these claims to be nonsense, and you told them about these investigations on the phone. let's listen to whate president trump had to say about the state and federal law enforcement officers who conducted, who investigated these false claims. >> there is no way, then they are incompetent. they are either dishonest -- okay, there's only two edges, dishonesty or incompetence. there is used away. look, no way. >> but the president didn't stop at insinuating that law enforcement officers were either dishonest or incompetent. went on to suggest you could be subject to criminal liability for your role in the matter. before if played a portion of to conversation i would like to show you something that the president retweeted a couple of weeks before your call with him. here's the president reach weeding a post on one of his allies, a lawyer who was laterpr sanctioned by a judge in michigan for making false claims of election fraud. let's take a look at that sweet. the tweet read, quote, president trumpp is the good nitpicky doesn't really like to fire people. i bet he dislikes putting people in jail, especially quote-unquote republicans. he gave at brian kemp george and at georgia secretary of state every chance to get it right. they refused. they will soon be going to jail. >> so on your call this is not the first on the president was suggesting you might beit criminally liable. with that, let's listen to this portion of the call. >> i think you're going to find that they are shredding ballots because they have to get rid of ballots because the ballots are unsigned. the ballots are corrupt. and they are brand-new and they don't have seals. there's a whole thing withot the ballots of the ballots are corrupt and you're going to find that they are, which is totally illegal. it's more illegal for you than it is up for them because you know what they did and you are not reporting it. that's the thing, that's a criminal, that's a criminal offense and you can't let that happen. that's a big risk to you and to ryan, your lawyer. that is a big risk. >> secretary raffensperger, after making a false claim about ballots the president suggests you may be committing a crime by not going along with his claims of election fraud. and after suggesting -- >> we believe this hearing to continue over for your commitment to live gavel to gavel coverage of congress. you can continue watching it though on our companion network c-span3 or with our free video at c-span now. the use senate returning with work expected to start on a bipartisan gun bill. now live coverage of the senate here on c-span2. senate will come to order. the chaplain, dr. barry black, will lead the senate in prayer. the chaplain: let us pray. our father, we wait in reverence before your throne. cleanse us from our sins, creating in us clean hearts, while renewing a right spirit within us. help our lawmakers today to discern your voice and do your will.

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