Transcripts For CSPAN2 FTC 20240705

Questions on privacy concerns and Data Collection while testifying for the House Judiciary Committee. Before being confirmed her current role in 2021 chairwoman serve as counsel to the house judiciary subcommittee on antitrust commercial and administrative law. This is about four hours. This meeting will come to order. Without objection shares authorized to declare a racist at any time. We welcome chairman to the hearing on the federal trade commission for the chair now recognizes the gentleman from wisconsin mr. Fitzgerald to lead us in the pledge of allegiance. The flag of the United States of america into the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you gentleman. We do note todays hearing as wenormally do with Opening Statements in the bible got right to our witnesses appreciate being with this today. Speech in berlin in 2022 chair consult an audience of challenges facing antitrust today work quote the result of a choice made 40 years ago to file the misguided philosophy of people other words according the view over the last 40 years is a bipartisan view. More than 20 congressman six president ial ministrations adopted by all 50 states and their enforcement is now somehow wrong. Considerate of the 40 or seos economy grew from 3 trilliondollar annual economy to 25 trillion was the single greatest spirit of Wealth Creation in human history. Everyone who oversaw it cannot deny for those in decades according to the chair it was wrong. She no space shined usher in a radical departure from the norms that made the American Economy great to assist him or her and her cronies have unchecked power over Business Practices in our country untethered from any reasonable reading of precedent or statutory law. But we should ask now of the two years and didnt tell her tenure howitzer approach to any trusting and playing out as she as well as critical agencies in our government. The short answer is it has been a disaster push investigations and make demands about a substantive followthrough or logic for the request itself but she centralizes decisionmaking at the commission within her office, eliminating pretax or due process or transparency in that decisionmaking. Approach is best characterized as one of intimidation followed by in action. The best example of this, which is because of work on that weapon nation select measure mr. Targeted harassment of twitter. After mr. Musk bob the 20 from democrat senators leftwing activist groups, issued over 350 requests for information from twitter. These requests included asking for every communication about inside the company, most troubling for information about twitters work with journal working to shed light on government driven censorship practices that existed. I think some cases still exist in big tech. We got a great Court Decision last week the talked about how pervasive this effort was an appeal of the injunction thus this morning though in a filing in federal court we learned the situation is even worse than we could have imagined. More than harassment it was a shakedown. The ftc as is common practice pursuant to the order required twitter to hire an independent assessor. Independent assessorwhose legale truly independent and objective, not to one party or another. It turns out objectivity was not with the federal trade commission was interested in here. Here is with the filing said about ernst young the independent investor hired in this matter. Quote the ftc was so adamant with ernst young conveying this is absolutely what you will do this is going to occur you will produce a report at the end of the day that will be negative about twitter. Seen ernst Young Leaders. That ernst young resigned as independent investor, the ftc would take exception to the withdrawal and create other challenges for ernst young overtime. This is not conjecture from twitter for this is from sworn testimony independent assessor in the deposition itself. Take it just last month. This is outrageous. This is unacceptable the kind of fear that occurs in the Banana Republic not in the United States of america. And so it is no wonder has no interest in providing information to the representative in the congress for the people of this committee will be asked for. Today the ftc is not going to go by the signal request for documents from this committee. Not even her own staff impressed with her leadership 2020 the left or the Trump Administration 87 of them employees agreed Senior Leaders have high standards that figure felt to 53 in 2021 as a client even further to 49 in 2022. On 202080 employees agreed they have a high level of respect for ftc leak Senior Leaders again under the chairman that figure plummeted to 49 . These numbers are before is revealed recently that the chair was advised by ethics counsel to recuse herself from a major case. She did not recuse herself and that approves of misled congress about taking that advice. As a lot of questions today to get through. Look forward to the response from the chairman of ftc. What that i yield to the gentleman of new york the Ranking Member for Opening Statement too. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, since you brought up robert, i must say i applaud the last 40 years the courts unfortunate following of his doctrine upending all prior understanding of antitrust law has resulted in a terrible misinterpretation of antitrust law and is directly responsible for the overconcentration of industry and the power of big business in todays economy. Mr. Chairman, yesterday the director of the fbi of the witness during the six hours and doing a steady stream of conspiracy theories the far right narrative that make resignation on fox news. Today it is the chair of the federal trade commissions turn to step into the alternate universe in the House Judiciary Committee under the public and publicanleadership the last timu were here, you set on this side of the stable helping to reinvigorate this committees work on antitrust matters and i thank you for your service to the committee. Unfortunately i expect that today youll be the target of a barrage of personal attacks and wild accusations the work of the ftc under your leadership. Republicans will tell us the commission is wasting resources for the ftc has returned over four to 30 million to consumers under your watch. As of vigorously enforcing the Laws Congress has entrusted to it. Meanwhile it is the House Republicans who have wasted untold congressional and agency Staff Resources and millions of dollars in pursuing a fruitless search for evidence of misconduct. Majority will also argue the ftc investigation into twitter was politically motivated and conducted at the behest of congressional democrats. This argument also has no basis in fact. Twitter has been in trouble for failing to adequately protect the privacy of its users for more than a decade. This is subject to a descent could decree on this topic as far back as 2011. Came at her second Consent Decree last year and given the haphazard conduct of its new owner it may very well be subject to new scrutiny today. The cftcs duty to review compliance with the dissent decree particularly when it occurred last year their there credible concerns that user data may have been compromised when majority and engineering staff is fired. This has nothing to do with the owner own of the company in his political views. Protecting user privacy is not political. Rushing to defend the company at all costs in investigating the agents attempt to hold that Company Accountable merely because the new owner shows your political views is another matter. Ultimately chair, you will face attacks today because you are doing your job. That is what threatens republicans the most. Federal trade commission was created and charged with enforcing antitrust and Competition Laws to respond to a rise in consolidation across the market in the early 1900s. Bring down the trust in the power strength of the economy help support the formation of a strong middle class. Unfortunately in recent decades executive branch took a radical turn away from enforcement of the antitrust laws and kept us safe and prosperous for nearly a century. That failure led to massive consolidation across the market gave rise to a handful of dominant companies with the power to call squash competition. The rise of monopolies in several fields was to the corporate class but it has been devastating to consumers, workers, Small Businesses. This began to change with the biden administration, now several steps reinvigorate the enforcement of federal antitrust law. By thankfully interpreted the original intent of the antitrust law and the ftc act to ensure fair competition crisis. The administration has announced the party is over large and unfettered corporations. Though most americans welcome this change and indeed our economy is booming and unemployment is at a historic low. The commitment to enforcing these laws has raised alarm among our republican colleagues for they have taken aim at your agency and the important work the ftc does protect consumers from competition. I hope my republican colleagues will find within themselves to put their baseless and often personal attacks on pause long enough to listen to the importance of your mission. In any event i appreciate you appearing here today. I appreciate the valuable work of the ftc. I look forward to your testimony and that youll back the balance of my time folks atonement yields back without objection Opening Statements will be included in the record we will now introduce todays witnesses the honorable is the chair of the federal trade commission shoe sworn in june 15, 22 not we welcome our witnesses and thank her for appearing here today. Well begin by swearing you and would you please rise and raise your right hand . Do you swear, affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony about to give us true, and correct the best of your knowledge and information and beliefs of your god . At the record reflect the witness answered in the affirmative, thank you. Please tell your written testimony the that your written test may be entered into the record in its entirety and summarize your testimony and five minutes will be low lax with that if you need a few extra. Chair e may begin movably with questions. Ask chairman jordan, Ranking Member nadler and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me too testify today. I am glad to join it to discuss the ftc work to promote fair competition and protect americans from unfair or deceptive practices. It is a particular honor to appear before this committee were i had the great privilege of serving during its historic bipartisan investigation to digital market and the power of Large Technology platform. Assist committee knows well there is long been a battle in this country between monopoly power and americas democratic institution. Congress created the ftc in 1914 against the backdrop of an Industrial Revolution that had delivered significant technological advances also enable intense consolidation. Given the national and ease about the unchecked power these monopolies could yield, lawmakers task the ftc of preventing unfair methods of competition and scrutinizing Business Practices through regular Data Collection and continuously building expertise. In the subsequent Years Congress has expanded our legislative mandates to include laws aimed at protecting. With each of these efforts congress has redoubled its commitment to fair competition at rooting up unfair and deceptive Business Practices. At the ftc our northstars for isfilling the important mandate congress is given us in doing all that we can to faithfully enforce the laws and safeguard american citizens and businesses from harmful and even dangerous concentrations of private power, that characterize significant loss in our economy today. Im endlessly impressed by the talent and tenacity especially in the face of ongoing resource constraints and legal challenges to our authority. Over the past 24 months the ftc is me the childs major transaction that would have eroded competition in critical l sectors of the economy. Click defense, semiconductors and pharmaceuticals. Youre tackling anticompetitive practices including those that harm american farmers, Small Businesses and workers. Master the ftc in a Bipartisan Coalition of 10 state attorney general charged to large manufacturers with unlawful and prevented farmers from having access to Cheaper Products costing them billions of dollars but in january, ftc proposed rules have been employers from imposing noncompete restrictions, elected workers collectively depress their wages by up to 300 billion while also depriving startup businesses the employees they need for expanding a p. Eight months since proposing we have received over 21000 Public Comments including from nurses, doctors, fast food workers and hairdressers. They all told us how noncompete head hurt their livelihood and undermine the economic. Already several Enforcement Actions by the ftc of ledfords to drop noncompete restrictions imposed on thousands of workers. The ftc continues to use his tools to connect much. Last year end the commission launched an inquiry to the practices pharmacy benefit managers to shed light on the opaque operations of the large middlemen who could dictate pricing and access the lifesaving drugs for millions of americans. This in court both thousands of Public Comments the ftc received explain the reallife costs practices. When doctor for example recounted how delays in approval because her patient to develop resistance to an otherwise effective treatment, ultimately lead to the needless law loss of the patients life great addition to its critical areas of work we are redoubling our efforts protect americans privacy in combat fraud. We were also activating additional authorities to congress is given up. How can to protect consumers, protect military families from predatory financing protect Addiction Recovery patients. We are fighting to protect the security of peoples personal data and have obtained record monetary judgments including largest ever judgment to protect children. The commissions proposed rules to attract the most widespread scams like government impersonation fraud, made in usa product and online reviews. Agency is tackling American Consumers want to charge us for us running sensitive data. Are quick to cancel proposal would require companies that easy to Cancel Subscription as it is to sign up for one. The ftc is committed to fighting for peoples right to repair their own products, ftc has brought several major actions against companies for imposing unlawful repair restrictions, hurting customers and independent shops alike. Others ftc drawing on all cylinders everyday to protect the American People for unlawful Business Practices. The talent and dedication are second to none. It is a deep honor and i am enormously proud to see how our Enforcement Actions and policy work are materially helping americans in their daytoday lives. In the aggregate work helps promote the open competitive resilient market that has been the bedrock of americas economic success and dynamism throughout our nations history. Thanks for the opportunity to appear before hearing you here today im happy to answer questions. Thank you madam chair. X like other federal agencies ftc as designated. On april 18, 2023q testify before a subcommittee of the house energy and commerce committee. At the hearing chair rogers sq quote are there any instances you have not followed the advice . He responded no followed up by saying you quote have consulted and take actions consistent that they have made. On june 15, 2023 the journal analyzing ability to sit as a judge acquisition. According to the ethics memoranda the quote recommend you recuse to avoid an appearance of a part in partiality concern pursuant to federal ethics regulation. You believe your honest and forthcoming with converse when you asked in the instances where youre not bolded advice you answered no. Yes or no . Yes congressman. In that letter you sent to this committee yesterday you claim you received only oral advice but never saw the leaked memo until after you decided not to recuse yourself. It is unbelievable to me would not ask for advice on this particular topic. You have written ethics advice on other topics but on this topic you claim you did not see the written memo and said you want us to believe you only received oral advice not specific oral advice and only general advice on understanding the legal framework. They give you advice is different than what was written in the memoranda . Thank you for the question congresswoman. Fort might work before he joined the commission. I need you to answer the question that i asked. The question i asked was did you receive different oral advice than what was written in the memoranda from dale . Its a very simple question. I consulted with the ethics official as was noted in the memo you cite although i did not receive that memo noted the ultimate framework in which someone has no financial conflict of interest. Parks that should give no different oral advice that was given the equal memoranda yes or no . Them themselves determine whether they should or should not recuse. It she give you different advice than what was orally that what was in the written memoranda yes or no . Parks congressman as was noted in the written memoranda did not felt the advice you could have recuse at any time couldnt you . I fold the determination there was no pic with two could have recuse at any time couldnt you . There is no violation. I have not a penny and financial stocks not a penny. Gave advice to recuse you did not do so, correct . Ask congresswoman at noted in the memo progress im going to move on since you are not willing to answer my question. I read your fourpage letter which was nothing more than a front your obligations on this integrity and work this tribunal owned by every Public Service i would reference part 62635 are federal regulations describes standards i want to note the ethics standards are higher than owed by the lawyers which brings me too my next point. Do expect lawyers to follow federal ethics rules . Of course. You expect lawyers at the ftc to be active members in Good Standing of the u. S. State . There practicing thing to be in Good Standing. I understand you were admitted to the new york bar on july 16, 2020. But in 2019 and 2020 according to your Senate Questionnaire you hold yourself out as counsel for the democrats on this very committee. You use the title but were not t licensed to practice law, counsel is for lawyers, licensed lawyers in wyoming a person who in any manner holds himself as cause to practice law without a license to do so with the unauthorized practice of the law. I believe the law the district where you hold yourself out is similar. Do you believe its appropriate for non lawyers to claim the title of counsel . Congressman i had the honor to work with the committee both document requests. Including documentation wicca checked her legislation i learned youre not in Good Standing those delinquent youth failed to failure by a note registration it means you have not been paying your bar dues in your continuing education maintain your education i believe it shows on the screen that also means youre subject to referral for disciplinary action. I find the situation study and reflection on your ethics. With that i yield back. Whats a gentle lady yields back. Offend the statement gently from wyoming incredible. For the republican staff all commit to recuse themselves in any matters that relate to theie work on the committee . That is standing standard there holding chair country appeared thank you for coming before our committee today. And your tenure 43 million to consumers a post about a noncompete agreement that increase workers earning my newly 3 billion a year. I would save consumers and healthcare costs would close racial wage gap between 3. 6. Or some other ways the commission supports a Strong Economy . Thank you for the question congressman. Our work on the antitrust site is ensuring robust competition. This is involved blocking mergers that we believe is right to convocation including Defense Industry including healthcare have a set of lawsuits alleging certain types of hospital mergers would deprive americans of access to quality affordable healthcare. Ive a whole set of work underway all too often drug prices are way too expensive for American People we are scrutinizing the ways in which potentially unlawful acts may be contributing to those high prices. There are also hearing directly day in and day out from Small Businesses independent grocers, independent pharmacists, about the ways in which the ftcs work to help ensure they have a robust open opportunity to compete in the marketplace a mixture americans are benefiting. Thank you. You have made it clear antitrust forces like your own agency have been more active enforcing the law bring a high impact cases even if this case is ultimately unsuccessful. Could you expand on this for us and share what you think having a strong cop on the beat is essential to fair marketplace . Thanks congressman. Ive been very clear line rate is about under enforcement but unfortunate think there were missed opportunities on that last few decades all too often in higher sectors and allowed to consolidate that allows markets are closed off with the competition. Recently the Defense Department of its consolidation is now directly undermining national security. With consolidation in the Defense Industrial base is harming our military make it more difficult for us to compete globally. These are just some of the harms we have seen from consolidation. Because of that things are incredibly important to be vigorously enforcing the law and congress is charged with with enforcing for this includes ftc prohibition on competition it includes the sherman act, there have been provisions of statutes that have been left dormant. We are fully committed to reinvigorate the law and ensure we are fully enforcing all the Provisions Congress is charged us with enforcing. I assume you also support. I know you also support bringing Court Actions instead of reaching a settlement under Consent Decree to the company thats broken the law. Why is that . Congressman we assess every matter on a casebycase basis. On the antitrust side we have seen unfortunately instances in which certain remedies that were achieved in merger settlements unfortunately failed to fully protect competition in the ways the agencies are required to do under the law behavioral commitments are certain divestitures really failed to preserve the competition we are charged with and safeguarding. As a result we are learning from that experience and adjusting and modifying where needed. In some cases that means bringing the lawsuit if its a remedy being offered we do not believe will fully resolve the underlying. It other instances it means improving and strengthening and tightening up the remedies we are achieving. Depends on a casebycase basis. Despite claims he did not follow ethics guidance to know for fact or the law you have no that would require you to include yourself, is that right . Indeed the Ethics Commission instructed you correctly is a decision to recuse yourself as a personal one you are charged to make, correct . That is right for quick to yu spoke to the general counsels office who stated you do not have a conflict of interest that would require your recusal, correct . Correct brca2 do not on any stock in any corporation or of any personal that would require you to recuse yourself question. Not a penny and in the individual firm stock that is correct. The federal trade commission has a Critical Role in protecting consumers, ensuring competition and trust that the agency is done this for over 100 years appreciated will continue to do so and finally before i yield back i ask unanimous ask t to enter into the record copy of your letter honorable rogers and yourself. I arty have and they proceeded without objection. Thank you yelled back. The gentleman from california is recognized. A few days ago you lost another case this was short challenge to the Northern District of California Opinion by biden appointee denies your request for a plenary injunction but asked her what the court called a voluminous founder not likely to succeed on marriage. You seem to be losing quite a bit and i do not say that to be disrespectful these are after all taxpayer funds. You are now 044 and the average for modern is around 75 . So i have to ask why are you losing so much . Consent to the question congressman i should note first of all the ftc has some of the best litigators around the great verytrout you mention it was phenomenal to see billy out resource by these companies is toe to toe in terms of legal talent not taking much delight. The enforcement action the cause of great taxpayer dollars. The question is why is your track record so poor to act actually winning cases . Congress and we have had significant success in the court theres a whole set of matters including our case against merchant should relate which was present in the in the ftc favor. Also banned for life from the pharmaceutical industry. You are zero four and murdered fauci going on your iphone may be a clue an article from the New York Times comments you made at a conference you said this. If there is a Law Violation agencies that current law might make it difficult to reach there is a huge benefit to still trying she added any courtroom losses would signal Congress Lawmakers need to update not so anything success one 100 court record. So this raises the question are you losing on purpose . Congressman the key clause in the quote you mention if there is a Law Violation. Billy drink cases when the facts before us lead us to believe there is a Law Violation under existing law. On the merger front there is a whole set of cases that we won including instances where the parties abandon and walked away for. What did you mean when you said any courtroom losses with wouldsignal Congress Lawmakers d to update, what does that mean . It is institutional dialogue between enforcers come between congress between courts is a centuries worth of antitrust back and forth between the agencies come between congress, this very committee in the 1950s determined the agencies were not bringing the types of cases that congress was worried about in terms of monopoly, power. You are actually bringing the cases part you are losing because they do not have the authority that you want from congress. This is how youre going to persuade congress to give you more authority is x exceeding the authority you now have . Congress i get we only bring lawsuits for their believe theres a lot violation given the facts in the law at hand. We fight hard but we believe there is a Law Violation and unfortunately things do not always go our way. We make determinations for quick quickly bringing cases effectively . Are you bringing cases . Absolutely not request your reqk record seem to suggest otherwise lets look more closely. The court first note in attempt to lower your burden essentially made up case law you could not find anything actually that supports you cited to your own decision that has precedent. Irrespective of the ilLegal Standard the court you probably would not have one under any standard the court said this, the ftc is not raise serious questions regarding whether the merger is likely to substantially less competition not raise serious questions for the course court also rejected and likely anti competitive just the opposite regular evidence points to more consumer access but why should americans have faith in your judgment this inviting appointed judge says you are so far off the mark. Congressman, this matter is pending before the f and the adjudication. Our complaint lays out view about the merger would result in ny that would be a Law Violation. Theyre not serious now having lost your spending more taxpayer money on an appeal you are less likely to win for the appeals courts going to differ to the findings for this intensive matter. Why are you spending more taxpayer resources . I can say again staff recommendation i can sit in a general matter looks closely at an opinion. And whether there certain errors they are worth appealing on those are in general the types of determinations that go into the ftc and the appeal. A judgments time has expired the chart now recognizes the gentleman from tennessee. Thank you mr. Chair. I thank you for being here for putting up a somewhat questions you have been asked. Yesterday fbi director rates that here almost five hours and put up with questions with his patriotism, his judgment, it was really amazing the hypocrisy shown. History was weaponization of the fbi. And yet every member of this panel was here on january 62021. The government was weaponize on that day. To take over the government to overthrow the government and the contradiction of the oath of office each of us have taken we have learned certain members of this committee went and met with donald trump and they were participating in the overthrow of the government and nuclear station weaponization of our government and they had the chutzpah, the audacity, the lack of integrity question judgment and went on and on. Im sorry came in here today cap next isnt gentleman accusing the lack of integrity . If you ask whoever it is to shut up . I heard some questions about your relationship with the Bar Association. Hey, you dont talk to dont ask about membership in Bar Association on the Judiciary Committee for their members who never passed the bar and are not members of the bar they are members of this committee in Good Standing. So we need to get beyond the hypocrisy and realize where we are and do not raise such subjects. Chairman let me ask you this that federal trade Commission Deals and issues that protect consumers. Subscriptions to magazines, to services on port media are everywhere you can subscribe to them easily. But it is hard to unsubscribe. Its difficult to find that spot. This has been a problem to consumers and Companies Make money hand over fist as people give up membership. What steps is ftc taking too real in these predatory practices . Congressman youre actually right. We have a complete database we hear about frustrations about the subscriptions that are very easy to sign up for but impossible to cancel. We have Enforcement Actions including cases last year of also proposed a rule required Companies Make it as easy to cancel a subscription as it is to sign up for one. Weve been collecting Public Comments are going to look closely at the record. Thank you for that. I had a bundle of disney, pollutant espn and i tried to get out of that bundle. And just to hooley or something im being charged for both now. I have given up ive tried to cancel and it is too much. It needs to be easy for. That is right we are focusing thrower company sometimes used was sent as a dark pattern fees are at the techniques designed to trick people into signing up for Unwanted Services or make it very difficult to cancel or opt out of something. Those designed packets are very much on her radar. Another consumer anticonsumer practice as robocalls and ive heard about it forever. It bothers me and father so my people to get robocalls and ask you to sign for this or senator that and speak and they get you. This is also the scc may be but that what is the ftc doing to help us with these deceptive calls . We work hard on this. One think we have been thinking about is how can we be effective and efficient with our resources . We have been looking upstream over the internet providers and are sometimes helping facilitate or enable robocalls we have a set of Enforcement Actions against them in order to have a more determined impact for these unwanted calls for. If you tried to encourage or help companies the public or antitrust actions could give them choices and better prices . Absolutely. Thank you for what youre doing. By the way if you have any books you checked out from the libra that are overdue . The public really cares about thats important youll back the belt of my time. Once a judgment yes but the gentleman from california directness for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. On behalf of the committee that work you are a 1600 plus fulltime equivalent to do on areas like warding robocalls in your efforts to promote the right to repair i want to thank the people of the ftc. Our beef though not with much of the good work you do much of which you said is successful when you litigate. Our problem here today my problem here today is that you are a bully. You have half a billion dollars to spend and you choose to spend that promoting a policy that when you were a staffer sitting behind us you seem to be very much into. I believe you have taken the idea that companies should have to be less competitive in order to merge. Every merger has to be somehow bad for the company and good for the consumer a standard that cannot be met. I will take for example a situation in which they have had the audacity to tell you that a Company Still held major assets that has to be reacquired so that a breakthrough noncompetitive drug Aid Technology of detection of cancer could be promoted more quickly. One which has no current competitor. One is not on the market. And yet you decide accompanied with the market cap of about 10 somehow would be anticompetitive assimilated, took on something that would be new. Before spinning it off. You are failing in that youre going to fail. You then took on microsoft. Microsoft is a big company. Everyone up here it was to beat on anyone who has a trillion market cap and they are big if you are over 1 trillion major break you up or stop you. However the merger you lost the other day is one in which a protected market that sony enjoys in japan, a company thats already larger needs to competition. The reality is we are Global Market if you are thinking only of who you want to go after for some reason. I cannot find your logic i believe it begins at the top. When you blamed your staff and said staff decisions, shame on you. The fact is you run this organization the left turn came you took over that with the staff many of whom have already been there. One of the things that gets me is my question to you Cancer Patients because you blocked the merger they continued to fight you, Cancer Patients die because they do not have the money to bring this technology forward, where is he consumer benefited . I know its currently pending were still working on it, i cannot answer. Its interesting you can answer yes or no to the democrats you could not answer something to us i will give you a chance. Something is not on the market and organization of two Companies Say we want to merge and bring something to the market, where does the ftc see anti competitiveness, briefly if you can answer. Next i should know if anyone noe asked me on either side about an ongoing for. No, no please answer my question purpose of not be able to answer. Relating to the matter you mentioned i was not at the commission when is voted out. It was a recommissioned opinion paired in that opinion we lay out our view that was unanimously. We laid out our view about how the antitrust laws apply in recent markets. There is significant case law how we could its incredibly important to protect competition not just in wellestablished markets but especially. But lets go back through this your opinion the opinion whether you inherited it or not but you seem to bear is that in the future there could be a failure to have competition and a market that is not yet occurred. If people have to meet a standard of your hypothetical market will not develop because we have to predict the future. Fewer ability to predict the future how is it you can predict you are going to lose four out of four cases . How is it you can predict the future of markets went and fact stockmarkets cannot even do it. I would contend you have overstepped your boundaries and your happen billion dollar budgets is being wasted. I for one will not support your wondered 6 million increase as long as you do not stick to those things which you do well as a responsibility and for the robocalls that in fact you have never managed to stop with that ideal back. The gentleman yields back. I think it mr. Chairman i want to commend my colleagues on the other side of the aisle in 118 congress and diversifying the membership on their side of the aisle we have not done enough for they cannot do enough at this point. And it reflects in the treatment a witness such as yourself receives from this committee. When a witness comes in, sitting solo at that table in front of all of these it is a daunting look the American People can see it. And when we treat a witness who looks like you with the politics, the personal destruction and will wait only attack witnesses who look like you with allegations of incompetence and a lack of ability to lead their agencies indicative of the need for this committee to reflect what the American People look like. I want to appreciate you today for withstanding what you have had to endure it thus far. We have only just begun. But i want to say this, americans rely on regulations and workers in this country and the federal trade commission should be as impressive as informant. Today in america there only four conglomerates that control the market consolidations in the meatpacking industry shows up at the Grocery Store resulting for consumers and at the same time coincidentally, record high profits for the corporate conglomerates for soaking this profits from the American People. A Single Company controls most of the web searching and a Single Company controls nearly half of all ecommerce. That is too much power in the hands of too few corporations. They can hike prices with little recourse. They control vast amounts of personal data per consumers are being squeezed by consolidation in almost every aspect of the marketplace from food protection to hospitals. I am glad to see you are using your position to strongly enforce antitrust laws to ensure fair competition and prices. Moreover we are lucky to have an ftc chair does not have personal or monetary conflicts of interest that would require her to recuse herself for cases involving big Tech Companies. That is a good thing because of that share, its able to plead an agency that is properly investigating Companies Like amazon, meta, facebook and twitter. I am glad we do not have the fox guarding the hen and that we instead have an ftc that is actively working to protect the american tumors. Now i want to ask you, ever see benefit managers manage Prescription Drug benefits on behalf of large insurers, large employers and other payers. However at this minimum roles allow them to artificially inflate the presence of drugs that individuals must pay for critical medications resulting in consumers having to pay almost 20 more for generic drugs. The market is an area of the market that is highly consolidated with three dvms. Controlling 79 of the market. What can the commission do to ensure that market benefit manager is competitive and fair so americans can afford their Prescription Drugs . Plexus is an area we are looking very closely we issued a policy Statement Last year unanimously noted some of our concerns the pharmacy management space. In addition to the consolidation that you mentioned, also beat vertical integration expanding into insurance, sometimes they are competing with pharmacy. We have heard a conflict of interest. Always it may be denying patients access for more Affordable Trust x think it mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman have a point of order i have unanimous consent request request appointment order for. Mr. Chairman i waited for the gentleman to complete his time. I must raise a point of order that i personally felt all republicans were tickly to me in his comments about diversity and his comments about our treating the witness because of the color of her skin which happens to be summers to my brown skin i would ask that portion of his testimony be taken down as inappropriate and argumentative in making a racial slur against myself and other members of congress. Who by the way yesterday treated what i would call a very white the end of a greater age for. It is their order it mr. Chairman or speech . What they do not think the gentlemans point of order in a timely fashion this must happen progress i withdraw my point of order. But not my objection park is going to say we should all engage in proper decorum. Not disparage colleagues but not disparage people in the government. Lets just keep that in mind with that we have unanimous consent. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would bill for entry of letter from a Small Business rising to your self as well as to the Ranking Member nadler. Into the rug without objection. Without objection picassos also like to take its, at the chair will allow me to the opportunity to clarify to my friend. That no personal affront was intended. This was directed at the entire class where we got at the gym at reckon is a gentleman from wisconsin. That makes me feel good mr. Johnson thank you. Krister thank you for being here at last december seo letter along with several of my colleagues asthma ftc consideration of environmental, social and Corporate Governance factors for the esg as it is known. I appreciate you had a proper response and answer ftc of not support conditioned approval of the unlawful merger, particular set of the issue policies or commitments. While pleased with the first part of the response, you did not answer whether petition criteria fault short of some standard on esg goals, can you commit esg criteria will not play a role in the decision by the ftc to block a merger . Microphone please . The text of the statues had to block mergers of their competition or treat a monopoly, that is what look upward again a Company Commitment for justice commitment or esg commitments those are irrelevant tickets thank you since becoming chair have you ever communicated what whatsapp or third different encrypted messaging app on matters principally related to antitrust or Consumer Protection policy, ftc Enforcement Actions, press, political strategy, or any official communication . In particular i interest to see if you have at any communication with senator warner, attorneys general for outside groups . Congressman ftc has a very clear policy requiring any ftc business relating to substantial matters be conducted only on authorized ftc devices and they ifully comply with that policy. If you have any communication with your now Senior Advisor msh millet works for your correct. Are quick to join my step earlier this year, correct. While she was in the role of the economic liberties project, regarding the decision to air attack at the members of this committee including myself are opposition to the ftcs proposed noncompete rule. Congressman i never involved in this types for. You were not involved in the idea to infect laughter members of this committee . In your districts . Congressman we are really excited about this proposal we are accepting a lot of public comets we are eager to hear from members of congress ive talked to many of you about this proposal. We are eager to hear your feedback and input. Apps announce less i intend to break 30 years of precedent by challenging the courts ruling in the merger of microsoft and activision. Can you explain why question despite certain countries in European Union already clearing this merger that you intend to move forward with and ministry proceedings . Congressman again this matters pending before the commission are administration our administrationadjudicationst on the merit. When we get an adverse ruling our team will closely determine whether there are errors of law that they believe warrants an appeal for those of the types of considerations that take into account. In april digit the associate director for litigation for the bureau of competition stated at a conference that quote merger policy is industrial policy. There is a role for merger policy and directing capitol flows into projects. That means next Venture Capital meeting they are not going to say what is the exit via acquisition . It will be how do we get to an ipo . Do you endorse the statement . Congressman i am not for both the details of it im happy to look at it and answer the question for the record as a generally its true antitrust and competition policy is about ensuring robust competition, entrepreneurs benefit from that, startups benefit from that. I just met with Venture Capital is the other week for their expressing concern about a black exit option that do not involve being bought out by where the Large Companies. These are certainly issues that we hear about. I think the issue for myself that many of my colleagues has been the weight you are running the ftc youre not trying to kill deals in the boardroom. You are also killing Small Businesses still in the caribbean pretty much started to seek an ipo rather than acquisition. The cost of entering the Public Market has doubled the 90s. And your colleague at the scc has been piling on with the rulemaking. So, i do not know at this is what the Administration Means by biden economics, but i have to ask why would anyone start a Small Business under this administration right now . Congressman, we hear regularly from Small Businesses but what things we started since i joined the commission is open Commission Meetings or anybody in the country can sign up and come talk to us. We hear from a lot of Small Businesses but more often than not what we hear is about the challenges they face being able to compete in an open competitive marketplace. We hear about the existing giants in existing incumbents are squeezing them and make it difficult for independent grocery, an independent pharmacist, we are very eager to hear from Small Businesses and make sure we are enforcing new laws that are neighborly everybody to compete in the marketplace for. Because chairman i yield back. Exit time spices file the judgee judge life in california is recognized by. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks to our witness for being here. I have an interest in several areas were ftc has been less than robust maybe you could disabuse me of that notion. First in the area of swipe fees. Visa and mastercard have more than 83 of market share. Congressman gooden and i introduced the credit card competition to introduce competition. We are Small Businesses at a higher swipe fee than people do and other developed nations im wondering whether the ftc will be having an active engagement in this area . I am also concerned about the issue of consolidation in the grocery sector. These Large Companies have the power to secure preferential pricing and treatment from suppliers with the detriment of intra independent grocers. Interested in what dc is interested in doing in this area Going Forward and finally, congresswoman eshoo and i introduced the toughest Online Privacy act that suburban introduced. It prevents companies from collecting data so they cannot then use it to manipulate americans and im interested in what actions the ftc is going to take to minimize data and minimization which is the key to Data Security privacy and also helpful in competition. On your first point the ftc announced an enforcement action against mastercard. We alleged there was a violation and the durbin amendment and mastercard engaged in unlawful tactics to block the competing networks and stifle the competition that congress sought to encourage in this market in 2010 because i think youre right we still see views that are higher than we see in sectors where you have more competition. The reinforcement is a top priority. We certainly have heard from independent grocers about the way the differential treatment and discriminatory prices may be squeezing them and disfavoring them making it difficult to complete especially in parts of rural america. Thats something we are looking at closely and also several months ago we launched an inquiry looking at the supply chain disruptions and the degree to which that may have contributed. On the right to repair this has been an area focused for us in addition to the staff report you mentioned we also issued a policy statement and we followed up with several Enforcement Actions including one against weber and weve been working with state legislatures several of whom are considering the right legislation. The other month one of our staffers went to california to testify before the senate to give input and feedback on their legislative efforts. To ensure robust privacy protections for americans as a top priority weve been extraordinarily active in this area especially when it involves childrens privacy and em enforcement action against epic games because we found the policies they had in place for the endangering in children. They are looking at the geolocation data and we have a lawsuit pending in idaho where we alleged in the complaint that its practices allow companies to track and get Sensitive Information on consumers in ways that reveal whether they were going to church were receiving services or Addiction Recovery facilities. So that lawsuit is still pending. I see my time is expired. The chair recognizes himself. Why are you harassing twitter flex. Congressman, thanks for the question. As you might know, the ftcs work on twitter goes back a decade. Im not talking about a decade. Im talking about now. Over 350 separate requests youve demanded of twitter. Why are you harassing them . Twitter has a history of lacked security youve asked for every single communication relating to elon musk, not that he sent to someone or communications he received but any time he is mentioned. That seems more than harassment. It seems like an obsession. Why such an intense focus . So again it was found the privacy policies allowed unauthorized users to coopt twitter accounts including that of fox news, subsequently twitter voluntarily entered into a Consent Order with the ftc. Identify all journalists and other members of the media to whom twitter has granted access since elon musk but the company. You want to know the name of every journalist . You think that is consistent with the First Amendment . As a former journalist i take extremely seriously the valuable work they do and understand that there can be instances in which Government Action madame chair, if i could interject, particularly in the context here, its bad enough if youve got government asking about who are the journalists youre talking to, you say we want the names of any other we may have communicated with that thats bad enough and i think a threat to the First Amendment and freedom of the press but in the context of giving us information about how the government had suppressed speech on these platforms, that is the context youre asking for that is troubling, dont you think . It prohibits twitter from sharing personal information with third parties. When we ran in the papers like everybody else that twitter may have granted access to third parties, that is what the teams were seeking information about. This is a Company Whose history we have limited time. Who is david roque. Could you repeat that . David roque. Im not familiar. June 21, 2023 david roque is the independent partner of ernst and young independent assessment that is part of the dissent decreed. Do you know what he said in that deposition . Im not aware. Let me read it for you. He testified, you deposed him, testified ftcs conduct made him feel as if the ftc was trying to influence the outcome of the engagement before it started. He said in some of the discussions that we were having with the federal trade commission, expectations were conveyed about what the results should be before we had even begun any procedures. So the independent assessor and youre telling the guy who is the person, he is the accountant that is going to get this information youre telling him youre putting the finger on the scale telling him what you want the outcome to be and hes supposed to be the independent factfinder. Im not familiar. This was filed in court today. This is your deposition. Im happy to take a closer look at it. As a general matter we want to make sure that the assessors and auditors that are responsible are doing their job. Are you saying that he is lying what has been filed in court that there were suggestions that what they would expect the outcome to be, there were suggestions of what they wanted him to go find in his independent assessment of the dissent decreed agreement between the ftc and twitter . Again im happy to take a close look and we can be back in touch about the allegation but our staff are professionals. When they conduct these investigations they are focused on determining is your attack on twitter, harassment is that based on the fact that all kinds of democrats have asked you to do this and frankly some things youve written about dealing with disinformation, does that have anything to do with it . We make only independent determinations about whether there were violations. They statement from charan nadler, the press release and the letter from seven Democratic Senators had no impact . Absolutely not. We look at the specific matter at hand. Of the command letters telling the assessor put your finger on the scale this is the result we want, thats not harassment and had nothing to do with the fact that every democrat in the town seemed to be telling you to go after twitter . Its protecting peoples privacy and security. Including private messages. We need to make sure especially given its history going back to 2010 we are doing everything to make sure twitter is complying with the order. Thats fine, dont put your finger on the scale and attack the First Amendment and rights to journalists. I yield back and recognize the gentleman from california. Thank you. Madame chair, thank you for your testimony today and for the refreshing and aggressive approach youre taking to ensure competition. In my view we have reached a dangerous point in the country whether its been a tremendous power at the expense of working families, the challenge we face today is not that people arent working, people are working. The problem is they are not making enough to get by and part of that is the result of this concentration of power in corporate hands but i dont think we have seen. I appreciate the work that youre doing. I want to ask you in particular about consolidation among the large Grocery Stores, the Large Grocery chains. This has the potential of not only having an adverse impact on price, but also having adverse impact on the form of job losses and creation of the deserts impacting communities. If youre able to share, great, if not i would ask more generally what youre looking at in terms of impact us. Would that prevent you from looking at criteria such as the impact on communities and workers . We would need to take a 360 view to understand the merger and how it may be listening competition in ways that are harming consumers but may be hurting suppliers in the context of the mergers we take care to make sure we are looking at all sides. As you noted there is a pending investigation. I think you are absolutely right contributing to food deserts, one practice also on the radar is the way that grocery chains can be using what are called restrictive covenants to try to lack out competition that may be contributing to these food deserts, so we are looking at that closely and want to make sure we are enforcing it in ways that are serving all communities. I appreciate that. I have great concerns about the merger and the impact on the communities that i represent and others throughout california and at the country in terms of the impact of workers on prices and on communities. Let me turn to the issue that the chairman was raising. You didnt get much chance to elaborate on the privacy and Security Problems that twitter and how they could impact the privacy of millions of americans. Id like to give you that opportunity because i am both concerned with the enormous proliferation of hate speech and the firing of many individuals charged with security and what impact that has on the rise of hate but also the decrease in the security and privacy and peoples data. Again we are focused on the privacy and security implications of any decisions that may be made. As i noted, the history goes back over a decade where serious security and privacy lead to personal information being compromised. As you noted twitter today also has access to deeply personal Sensitive Information. In 2022 we entered into the revised Consent Order because we found that twitter unfortunately had been in violation of the prior Consent Order. Whenever we have repeat offenders at the agency we are thinking very hard about what wecan be doing to prevent repeat violations. The revised order has even tighter privacies, security provisions but was voted out unanimously at the commission and will continue to make sure that the orders are being followed and protecting peoples processes and securities. I appreciate that and id also like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a couple of articles. Elon musk, king of censorship, ten times the abolitionist the silenced users and also an article from the rest of the world with government demands under elon musk which includes twitters selfreported data shows that under musk the companies complied with government orders for censorship especially countries such as turkey and india. The request consent to thank you, chairman. The gentleman from colorado is recognized. I think the chairman. Thank you for being here. Do you own a stock on apple, amazon, facebook or google or any competitors to the companies . I do not. Do you know the ethics official that requested that you recuse yourself from any activities from the Facebook Stock . I learned about that. Do you know how much it costs to buy congress . Big tech does. They spent 250 million against the bills that passed out of this Committee Last congress. They spend money lobbying. They spent money on advertising and members districts and money with thirdparty think tanks. They spend money that no other effort in recent memory certainly has been spent and its not just the money they spent but lobbying for example meda and lakewood facebook, 20,070,000, amazon 19,320,000, alphabet 11,770,000, apple, 6,500,000. But its not just the money they spent on lobbying and of those activities. On june 18th, 2021 just five days before the markup hearing of the big tech bills in this committee, paul pelosi, Nancy Pelosis tech investor husband bought 4,000 shares of alphabet via a call option in which he promised stocks the price of 1,200 a share. A month later, now this is after we passed the bills, but nancy pelosi the speaker send steny hoyer the majority leader to the press to tell the press that these bills were not ready for the floor. A month later the stock price rose to over 2,500 making paul pelosi 5. 2 million richer without spending a penny. Speaker pelosis offices issued a statement denying any involvement or prior knowledge of the transaction. The fact remains that she refused to bring to a vote on the house floor those bills. The bills that resulted from an 18 month long investigation. We had last year as a result of efforts a stock ban in the house that would prohibit members from buying individual stocks. You probably also dont know more than 50 members bought stock in pharmaceutical companies when congress immunized a good term i guess to use during the crisis immunized pharmaceutical companies if there was any problems with the vaccines that they created. We cant pass a stock ban but we can call you into congress and suggest that somehow you shouldnt be involved in activities involving some of these companies because you wrote a law review article. Do you have a child, i dont want you to answer that just yet because thats personal but do you have a child that is lobbying for amazon or facebook . No, he is turning six months this week so no. Theyd probably still hire him. If they thought they could influence you they would hire your child of six months old because in fact they hired senator schumers daughters to lobby for them and the same bills that passed the house didnt pass or didnt get the chance, sorry, the same bills that passed the House Judiciary Committee passed the senate Judiciary Committee and never saw the light of day on the senate floor either but thats just how the game goes. You are well aware of the need to update the antitrust laws concerning the new economy that we are facing. And i would like if you could briefly to explain what is the need and why is it so difficult to apply the antitrust law written at the turn of the last century to the new economy . Thanks, congressman. So, there is antitrust doctrine on the book thats embedded on the economic assumptions about how certain markets work. They are engaged in different strategies and sometimes there can just be a gap between how the doctrine is seeing businesses around and what we see in reality and so legislative updates can be needed to close the gap between what the theory says or what the doctor and says and what we are living with an actual markets. So that is in particular with the legislative action could be absolutely critical. The time is expired and yields back. Thank you, mr. Chair. What is your job . I had the great honor of serving as the federal trade commission. And what do you do in that role . I help manage the agency and oversee the bureau of protections for the legislative amendments. Is that you . Excuse me . Is that of the ready in you . That is authority extends back and then in the following decade. We talked a bit earlier about litigation fees and enforcement costs. Let me ask you are you a Profit Center or an agency in charge of protecting consumers and forcingthe law and going after individuals that may pray on the consumers are taxpayers . We are a Government Agency that is using every dollar we have to protect from illegal Business Practices. Lets talk about main street. How are you working to stop these calls from happening . We have overlapping jurisdiction, as you noted. One thing that we are doing in addition to going after some of the robo callers themselves is identifying some of the factors that are allowing the calls to proliferate. Sometimes they are originating from other countries in ways that can make it difficult to go directly after them. This is how we look at the providers and other a number of years ago i had a situation like this where we had to get interval involved, involved from mexico, one of the local Telephone Companies providing calling information and it was a huge, huge mess. International very much a different challenge. What can we in congress to do to help you rein in these predatory costs . The fcc also has authority over the Telecom Carriers themselves directly taking action in that layer could also have a very big impact. We are bringing lawsuits where we can. Unfortunately a couple of years ago we had a big setback where the court said 13 be has been a core provision that we used to go into court and get back money from people who have been scammed out of money. The court said we could no longer use that authority. That was a setback. Weve been activating other authorities to make sure we are trying to get money back where we can do you need legislative help from congress to do your job . Absolutely, legislation in particular enabling the ftc to go under section 13 be and get money back so that they are not profiting from the lawbreaking that would be essential. They call the local pd and they dont know what to do. They call the local state agency they dont know what to do. I hope you and your agency continue to be effective making sure consumers are protected. Seniors especially are sometimes embarrassed to call me and tell me i just got ripped off. They dont have the energy or the wherewithal to defend themselves. These are the people we need to be protecting. I asked if you were a Profit Center. I know youre not that i would encourage you to do a good job. These resolutions gives the chair sole control over the investigation. The chair could direct staff without a Commission Vote that is previously necessary and investigations of almost all mergers and business conduct. They resigned over much of this type of action from you. This paragraph eliminated the only layer of oversight wouldnt you agree that the use of the omnibus resolutions in the matter undermine the bipartisan nature of the model he and are you trying to turn the commission into your own personal empire . Its long been used before i joined. The changes we made brought up the Consumer Protection side symmetry with the competition side in order to empower the staff to act nimbly. The staff has been leaving in droves now that the 71 senior attorneys left the agency in a twoyear period the highest number of departures in the category for a twoyear period since 2000. Coincidentally the Progressive Change Campaign happens to have a list of 400 recommended names for positions in the ftc and the biden administration. Is anyone at the Progressive Change Campaign communicated to hire any of these individuals . No. Have you hired any of these individuals . No, i dont know what youre talking about to be honest. Lets move onto this committee and your responsiveness or lack thereof following on with the chairman asked. In march, youre a director of the office of the congressional relations testified before my subcommittee on the responsiveness and accountability regarding the refusal to produce documents related to the committees oversight of the harassment of elon musk following his acquisition of twitter. Its well known the ftc frequently seeks information from the parties that it investigates when those parties fail to produce what is required to conduct its investigation the ftc seeks a sanction. With this inquiry most of what it has provided is already publicly available. I find it inconceivable that they would tolerate such under its investigation. So what should this committee do and take from the production date on this matter . Its been enormously responsive. Weve been working day after day to accommodate the committees request. Weve offered and provided numerous briefings including on the matters that you mentioned and we have an Ongoing Investigation theres additional considerations we have to take into account to make sure we are not compromising Law Enforcement or killing of the free speech of the parties that communicate. Does that include through nongovernmental email accounts because in the limited materials that you provided, the staff communicated using gmail accounts in other instances employees from other agencies were using email accounts attached to that separate agency so you were talking about how you are committed to using Government Communication methods. I dont know if you are aware that your staff is not about how many to the sources outside of the ftc . Congressman, whenever anybody on boards we provide the training so Everybody Knows only to use authorized devices. It sometimes inadvertently there is a message that pops up you are supposed to forward it and i imagine thats why it was actually captured in those productions. You asked for a budget increase of 160 million for 37 citing staffing shortages that are largely responsible for and insufficient resources. Could you announce the effort in the antitrust division with the ftc to send staff to europe to assist with implementation of their digital market . We have a really fantastic office of International Affairs that i inherited that was launched in 2007 in the Bush Administration is part of the international efforts. We are sending detail please how much does it cost . I dont know off the top of my head but we are happy to provide that information and provided to you. Due to the partisanship thats come up in your agency of the fact that you all are ignoring the requests into the wastefulness that we have seen, i know that the Appropriations Committee is marking up the budget as we speak and they are seeking a 25 reduction in funding for the ftc today. They will be passing that government funding bill. So, actions have consequences, madam chair. And youre about to see what consequences your actions have had. I yield back. The gentlelady from pennsylvania is recognized. Thank you mr. Chairman. Im sorry i forgot, the gentlelady from the other side of the country is recognized. Thank you mr. Chairman. As the head of the federal trade commission, i would like to thank you for the investigations and Enforcement Actions that protect Small Businesses and hardworking americans and promote competition. You have done what few before you have dared to do. A few before you have had the courage to take on big corporations who use their endless lobbying money to hurt americans with more fees, less transparency and higher costs. Youre taking on big tech and at the monopoly powers that allow them to use our data and snuff out to Small Business competitors. That is something that yesterday i got a lot of bipartisan praise taking on director ray at the fbi around privacy. Youre doing the same thing and there should be more people like the representative talking about that on this committee, talking about the efforts that you are making to finally put teeth into protecting consumers and im grateful to you. I think it is because of your success, your courage and your integrity that you are receiving these baseless attacks on your character. So just for the record, here are the facts. It was ftc ethics officials who owned stocks in meta when she recommended that chair recuse herself from investigating meta. In contrast, the chairwoman owns no stocks in big tech, not one penny and a federal judge ruled that her stances do not constitute a conflict of interest. So i want to thank you for your integrity and commission to the mission which is why the president appointed you to the commission. Now i want to spend time talking about your accomplishments under the leadership. One in five workers are affected by the clauses which essentially means that employers restrict or ban workers and their Employment Contracts from switching jobs, just for the average person who is out there listening. The ftc is currently working on banning these noncompete clauses. Can you explain in plain language while your agency proposed the rule to ban the clauses . Im happy to, congresswoman. I would be remiss if i didnt mention you mentioned the ethics officer. I know the officer to be a dedicated career professional who serves the agency with nothing but its best interest at heart. I understand and that interest she sought guidance from the office of government ethics and acted consistently with it. These are clauses that lock in workers and prohibit them from being able to seek an alternative job with a competitor for a period of time and often times geographies limits. Weve seen from our work that these clauses suppress the wages to the tune of 350 billion and they also make it difficult for startups and entrepreneurs and businesses to enter and compete and thats why we proposed this rule. In which type will benefit from the implementation of the rule . It would be everybody. Weve heard from journalists, healthcare workers, fast food workers, engineers, scientists. Of these noncompete clauses proliferated across markets and across the economy in ways that are now hurting everybody. Let me turn to the work on junk fees. Im proud to say they attract both democrats and republicans because as your agency notes they are surprise charges that inflated cost while adding little to no value. So tell us how widespread these are and tell us how they harm consumers. Im sure everybody can relate to this in their daytoday lives these are mystery fees that show up, charges on your hotel bill or unwanted or unnecessary charge that shows up somewhere else. One of the areas we heard most about these fees is in the auto context. Buying a car is one of the most significant Financial Investments that people make and we have heard that all too often consumers are saddled with charges for unnecessary or unwanted or redundant fees. We also brought a lawsuit including these junk fees when people try to cancel their subscription so that is just some of the work. We currently sought to comment on how to do more work on the fees including two potentially proposed the rule and we are reviewing those comments to determine how to move forward. Theres a long history is that correct . Can you talk about that . Again in the auto context in particular weve gotten hundreds of thousands and dozens of lawsuits exposing fees consumers are saddled with when trying to buy a car. I want to thank you for your work and hope that we talk more about some of the shared interest we have across the aisle. You are a brilliant woman with a tremendous ability to impact how consumers are going to interface and the time to come and i want to get to those areas of agreement but theres some ugliness weve got to deal with. You guys putting in the names of reporters in a correspondence to twitter was solely predicated on an anonymous news sources. It was based on reporting. And we would agree that anonymous reporting is not a sufficient predicate to target, to send letters about journalists or critics. The goal of a third party this is good feedback for us. We want to make sure we are not suggesting that we are interested in effecting journalists. Its about privacy and security. I appreciate your acknowledgment that that is not the way we ought to do things as someone that has seen the government emerge out of the reporting perhaps im a little sensitive to that. Lets get on to the important work. Your agency recently put out a correspondence saying during a three month period in 2017, an employee viewed thousands of videos of female users in their bedrooms and bathrooms including videos of their own employees. An unauthorized tunnel about a ukraine based contractor to access consumer videos. They gave information about a customer to their exhusband was also something they uncovered. They took advantage of the two way communication functionality to harass and threaten people who use ring cameras. There was a case where an 87yearold woman at an assisted living facility was sexually propositioned through the twoway features. Kids were subject to racial slurs. A hacker got in and threatened a family with physical harm if they didnt pay a bit coin ran some. They already killed the customers mother and quote, tonight you die. Whats going on at ring . We recently took Enforcement Actions precisely because of these which endangered americans in their daytoday lives. Overall looking at some of these surveillance devices and how they can be misused and abused as a top area of focus. Peoples privacy is paramount. They are told they are going to be killed with a bit coin ran some. Lets go to another evil company. One of these data brokers that youre going after and the American People should know that of a geolocated where people go to church and then they sell that data to commercial enterprises. I believe most people would have that reaction. The creepy activity now they are literally sold them to people this is a baptist, this is a methodist, this is someone that goes to temple. We have a pending lawsuit we filed last year. The Court Dismissed it and gave the opportunity to revile because it is an amended complaint. We think it is urgent to act here because the type of stigma and harm that can stem from being able to track and sell peoples information is critical for us. We didnt like when the fbi was wanting to infiltrate the catholic churches and i dont know that i want the data brokers to do the same. We have seen how they are using the data brokers to a runaround. So based on this i hope the litigation is something that creates precedent. We as sophisticated lawyers know sometimes that the motion to dismiss the complaint creates a pathway to an amended complaint so its insufficient to stop data brokers from selling information about where the constituents worship and to stop from these activities. I hope that you will work with us to change those laws. All of the points are central to this because if congress is bought off and people come into beat you up over what email account you use or what a trip youve been on to europe it misses these things that are far more central. Thank you for your work. That is something the committee can hopefully agree on and weve been at this an hour and a half. If not we can keep going. Let us know if you need a break. We want to start by thanking you for your work to protect american businesses and consumers on issues ranging from privacy concerns to Business Practices to unwanted telemarketing and to fraud and financial exploitation that targets servicemembers, veterans and those in recovery from opioid disorders. Those are all important issues and we hear from the constituents regularly about all that. The job isnt made easier when claims are levied against human commercial hearings. Every day some of our colleagues seem to be proving the maximum if you dont have the law on your side and if you dont have the effect is either, just argue. We appreciate the patients in responding to the fact free questions. I want to focus on hospital consolidation and the growing problem of equity firms buying up hospitals and healthcare groups. In the philadelphia region we have had two major hospitals purchased by private equity firms after they managed the functions of the hospital stripping them of their assets and then either closing the hospitals are putting them up for sale. This was a hospital in 2020 of them was closed in the middle of the pandemic after the Real Estate Developer bought it that left a gaping hole in the system in one of the poorest cities in the country and then currently the system teetering on the verge of bankruptcy while hemorrhaging talent and staff and medical practices after a private equity owner stripped the assets undermined the relationships with medical staff and has reduced access to medical care particularly maternity care, Emergency Services into behavioral healthcare. For the intervention in this private equity firms Hospital Business to prevent it from closing or bankrupting. We are also seeing this troubling the National Trend that they have been on a buying spree to scoop up the smaller of care groups and there was a revealing report from the petro middledot uc berkeley. The trend of the private equity firms buying up multiples in the city and then using that consolidation to raise prices. We are really concerned about this trend thats reducing access to healthcare and then raising prices. So, what is the ftcs response for more scrutiny over the transactions and how can it increase oversight and enforcement activities to ensure that we preserve market competitiveness in the Healthcare System . This is such an important issue and we at the ftc and our team has done a fantastic job addressing the hospital consolidation in particular in local markets. We have had a whole set of successes spanning. We were trying to block the transaction and i think that you are absolutely right today we are seeing different types of strategies including the incursion of private equity. I recently met with some emergency medicine physicians who had come from across the country who were sharing how enough private equity is really harming the quality of healthcare for people. In varying material ways. So that is something that is on the radar and we are trying to figure out how to update the tools to address this. We issued to some proposed updates to what is known as our reform it seems technical but its the information the parties have to provide us when they are looking to make an acquisition. Partly those changes would give more insight into the type of role on strategies for mentioning so we know on day number one whether its a private equity firm with a history or rollup that should put us on high alert so definitely something we are looking at closely. I have a couple of questions on that topic i will save for the next round or submit to you but i do want to yield 30 seconds to the representative. Thank you, representative. I didnt want to say quickly before i ask my question i wasnt trying to attack the ethics of the officer i was trying to point out the hypocrisy on the other side who raised that you have a conflict of interest and dont mention the other issues that might exist. Theres one more i really want to talk about and that is the tax preparation companies. Flooded consumers with ads promising Free Tax Filing Services only to trick and trap them into paying which is why they pay 250 on average each year for the privilege of filing their taxes so state attorney generals want money and ftc is also taking action. Can you speak about that . Last year the ftc brought a lawsuit for those of varied types of deceptive practices that are laid out in the complaints. That is still pending. I couldnt agree more that the claims of something being free but ultimately it really hurts people. The gentleman from louisiana is recognized. I would like to begin with policies related to diversity, equity and inclusion. Its instituted during your tenure. Last month you implemented a socalled equity action plan that calls on the ftcs bureau of competition to update its case selection based on this criteria. Allowing the bureau to the cases based on these in marcus terms like equity is an idea that we believe is fraught with problems. He also hired staff on a topic of antiracist antitrust. Can you explain to the committee what that means . What does that the term mean . Its not a term ive used. Generally i know that there is a lot of worry that concentrated economic power hurts everybody. All communities and the ftc needs to be mindful the work is focused on the harm that is affecting everybody. So antiracism shouldnt play a factor in the competition, right . We run the lawsuits based on the law and we look closely at but this isnt one of the factors, its not going to be used under your watch . There are instances theyve asked them to look at whether particular communities are being defrauded and we follow what the congress has told us to do but otherwise we just follow the general wall. A senior staffer recently attended an event and gave a speech and discussed applying a gender lens to antitrust in which the staffer praised the equity team. In the context of the antitrust analysis . Im not sure what that means. We arent either. We hope you are not using it. Is there a cross equity team . We have a lot of Cross Agency Teams that are focused on how you make the ftc a better place to work. We have a Cross Agency Team thinking about how to make sure that the ftc okay. Dont you think that reorienting the ftc from protecting consumers to protecting favored groups that that ideo would run counter to what the mission is . You said its applied to everyone. It shouldnt be injecting these like us progressive policy initiatives that we are concerned about. They have an Important Mission and we dont want you to get off course. On a partyline vote of the ftc c expanded its authority under section five well beyond what any previous ftc has done over the past 40 years. November, 2022 statements they expended to the methods of competition thats described as competition that goes beyond the merits and even when conduct is not unfair it may violate section five. Following the decision the former commissioner stated, quote, the commission has freed to any business that finds distasteful. That is an extraordinary power. And its very concerning because it is an amorphous and subjective term by nature. Are you using the section five authority to determine what is unfair . Congressman, we look closely at the text of the statutes that congress wrote and that instructs us to prohibit unfair methods of competition. We have to take those words seriously. When putting together the statement our team looked closely at the decades of case law to try to understand how the courts interpreted what this means and the policy statement reflects that. Really quickly, there is an example recently i believe that you are in the process of ending the agreement is a fair method of competition and that could go into effect next year is that right . Weve got to 24,000 comments on the proposal wed we are reviewing them and determining how to move forward. Would you be a pretty blanket ban is that your position . The proposal bands the most majority of noncompete with a few exceptions one of which is not to compete included as a part of the sale of the business. Have you ever run or worked in a Small Business . I personally have not. Is it reasonable for those that spend considerable money developing practice was to compete against their rivals within the noncompete agreements unfair . We will be eager to hear from them. I know weve gotten a lot of input. The other thing we hear from Small Businesses is that they make it difficult for them to compete because if they are trying to enter to compete with the big guys that hurts the Small Businesses so we have heard on this issue. Im out of time. I will yield back. Thank you mr. Chairman. Be aware of that profound enemy of the Free Enterprise system who pays lip service to free competition but labels every antitrust prosecution is a persecution. Those words are uttered by Franklin Delano roosevelt nine years ago and ive listened to most of todays hearings madam chair and of course we are grateful that you are here today. Ive listened to the criticisms made by my colleagues at the ftc, not all my colleagues but most of them and the vast majority of the criticisms have nothing to do with your ethics or integrity or approach to the job and everything you do with Corporate Power and the realities that you have pursued, your duties as the chairwoman of the ftc in a way that puts the best interest of the consumers first for an article in the wall street journal from june 30, 2023 the headline of which ethics official owned the stock while recommending the chair recuse herself from the case. Weve spent a great deal of time curing colleagues talk about this particular issue. I would simply echo the comment made by my colleague from colorado and my friend who i thought spoke very powerfully on this in washington, d. C. Can an individual, a regulator that has no financial interest in the merger before her be accused of an ethics violation by members of congress who own financial or have financial interests in the company that has petitioned for that order has rather preceded with that merger that is under review by the ftc on the basis of an opinion that was issued at the didnt conclude that there would be an ethics violation for the commissioner in question to proceed with considering the matter but nonetheless opines that would be an appearance of propriety and that individual having a financial interest in the company that was involved in the merger. And im not commenting. I agree on the propriety of the decisions made by the Ethics Department more broadly. Im simply opining on the state of affairs in washington, d. C. Because for years we have had commissioners who have real conflicts of interest. You didnt have any financial interest in meta, right . Thats correct. The basis as i understand for the objections by many colleagues and others is that you have a certain view when it comes to putting consumers first and ensuring the power does not reign supreme in the country. And i think its unfortunate some of my colleagues have taken that approach. I will say for my part im grateful for the work that youve done at the department and also for the work that your partners and of course other antitrust enforcement regulators and attorney general has done over the course of the last several years. As you know we passed a bill on a bipartisan basis that was my bill the merger filing fee which i believe is going to strengthen your efforts and ability and efforts of your hardworking workforce within the ftc by changing the schedule for the mergers and decreasing the fees for smaller mergers but increasing the fees proportionately for the billiondollar transactions and giving you the resources you need to fight on behalf of the american public. I wonder if you might talk a bit about that particular building and its implementation into the impact that it will have on the agency resources. Thanks for the question and your effort in that bill. It was a much overdue efforts to update the filing fees and as you noted to make it clear that for larger transactions there is a higher fee for smaller transactions and lower fee. We in part rely on those to be able to fund our enforcement and so that is absolutely going to be making a difference. I, as i said im grateful for the approach you are taking. I was proud to work on that bill with representative buck whos been a champion among other colleagues of mine on both sides of the aisle, and we look forward to continuing our work with you, madam chair, for years to come. With that, i will yield back. The gentleman from kentucky is recognized. I think the chairman. Constituents are contacting me about mergers between Tech Companies were that sort of thing, but one of the things ive been contacted about multiple times from small independent grocers they feel like they are not the practice is being used against them. We sent a bipartisan letter to you asking for an update, because in november, 2021 this was 17 months ago they ordered wholesalers and suppliers to provide detailed information to help you study the causes behind ongoing supply chain disruptions. And i appreciate you being willing to give us a briefing, but can you brief us today . What have you found and are you going to be able to help these folks complaining they cant get products or theres discriminatory pricing not based on quantity but based on other things were different package sizes . What can you tell us today . This is such an important issue coming and weve heard from those folks as well. Its partly what informed our decision to launch the study. We are moving as expeditiously as we can. As you can imagine, sometimes firms dont have an incentive to give all the information we need as quickly as we needed, but we are moving ahead. He didnt happy to be providing you what weve found so far. We will be looking to make the findings public as soon as we can. I hope that is soon. Its been 17 months since you asked to get the information and i and understand it takes a while to get it, but i hope we get that soon. Another issue that concerns many is the socalled warning letters. On august 3rd, 2021 ftc announced they would send warning letters in connection with transactions it cannot fully investigate in the time provided by the statute before the deal closes. Why should people trying to do regular business be published because its taking you too long to do your job . How many of these socalled warning letters have been sent by the ftc . The statute gives us only 30 days to look at a deal to determine whether we need to investigate it further. As they become more complex, that can be a very tight timeline. Weve heard from some businesses that if we dont act within that 30 day period the take away for them is theres no issues or concerns. A tactic to scare business. I am worried thats the effect is having for its having a chilling effect. And then sleep issue one of these letters and you never tell them whether the case is closed or not, without doing anything it stops transactions that would be helpful to americans. I want to now yield back the remainder of my time to german piglets appreciate the judgment yielding. Ftc attorney deposing asked him to confirm that quote no one from the ftc directs you to reach a conclusion about the program he explained to the contrary. There were suggestions of what they would expect the outcome to be. He testified the ftc communicated to ernst young again ernst young was independent assessor the factfinder the ftc selected and made twitter paperwork come he communicated that ernst young under all circumstances will be conducting an issue report on behalf of the ftc order and was very adamant about absolutely what you will do and this is going to occur and you will produce a report at the end of the day. The ftc was so adamant. Ernst Young Leaders feared that the ftc would take exception if they chose to withdraw from the case. Oh, on the one hand you are harassing twitter and then you are saying the guy we have selected ernst young the accountant we selected to be the factfinder you better find what we want. If you try to get out of it we will retaliate against you. That is frightening. We talk about the weaponization of government, tell us the journals you were talking to. That is what we are concerned about that is what has to change. You can comment if you want. I am reading from motion filed today in court. It is amazing to me you do not even know who this person is. Your lawyers deposed him for he is the guy you set up as the factfinder and you did not know who he was did you sign up on any of those 12 letters sent to twitter in that timeframe . We are fortunate to have a lot of work underway a lot of work is delegated to the front line staff that are able to move quickly and nimbly to make sure progress you are in front of congress today, you know youre going get questions about the state you dont know this i find that amazing. It sounds like a latebreaking development in the filing this morning is not something on my radar. I will be reluctant to weigh in on and then set it without looking more quickly add up but im happy to take questions for the record on and engage later. Not on your radar . You told based on the testimony of this guy he felt there be retaliation if ernst young try to get out of the agreement. I yield back. The judgment yields back i recognize the gentle lady from pennsylvania for five minutes. Fox news before my five ms. Ask unanimous consent to enter into the record ethics official owned stock will recommend ftc chair recused herself for medicaid. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you chair khan for being here, speaking with us about the important work ftc does to safeguard consumers. And cracked out on companies that would exploit them. I come from a perspective as a mother, as a grandmother product care about exploitation of seniors, of children, of a businesses, consumers generally. In your written testament you expect ftc remarks to provide privacy and Data Security by fraud including fraud related to opioid recovery. And ensure domestic manufacturers and Small Businesses have a chance to compete fairly. Somehow republicans are using this time in other ways i apologize im late to the hearing today. Im pretty sure im glad i missed some of what happened. I was in another with secretary clark carry on the Climate Crisis so forgive me for coming late i want to ask you on the issue around opioid addiction and abuse what ftc is doing. I know ftc recently returned 60 million to people suffering from opioid addiction but i know you know as well as i the Health Crisis the public Health Crisis in this country around flood of opioid in opioid addiction is grave. One hundred 10,000 people died last year of overdose the bits 300 people a day. You tell us about your work, ftcs work to protect consumers. Maybe in this case a 60 milliondollar case and you tell us about your work in that area . Whats happy too. This is a newer authority that Congress Gave us. Im pleased we have been able to quickly put into action. We brought a set of lawsuits using this authority to make sure its companies are deceiving potential patients of opioid Recovery Facilities that we are acting quickly to prevent that deception. We brought a case against a firm move on their engage in some of these deceptive practices in ways that were harming opioid recovery patients. We recently brought another action that also noted deception around tobacco Addiction Recovery is also illegal under the statutory authorities we are working hard to make sure people being deceived and ways under this about her asking and getting money back. Thank you for that work i hope you will continue in a robust way for full disclosure of a son assent and longterm recovery, tenures and recovery from opioid addiction. We have lost too many others to this problem. The deceptive practices are so egregious it is very upsetting. I wanted to move to, i have some time, i do good. Pharmacy benefit managers. They operate behind the scenes consumers do not really know theyre all about. They are middlemen and the drug market determine Patient Access to medication associate prices consumers pay. In this role pbm has the power to raise prices and a part of the reason consumers pay 20 more than they should for generic drugs. Can you speak to ftcs doing on the issue of pbm and disclosure to consumers and cracking down on the price hikes . Push ups he read these firms are often times behind the scenes people are not directly interacting with them often times their decisions are determining what medicines what gets on to assert as a formulary. Unfortunately we have heard reports that suggest rebates between drug manufacturers and pbms may be keeping lower cost generics off the formulary but that means in practice is thursday at lower costs turned out there but when the patient is going to the pharmacy theyre not actually able to get it they are having to pay more for the branded drug. We Center Policy statement we are very concerned about that and looking at it for. Yes and how can you interrupt that . Ftc have rulemaking some effectiveness in interrupting that blockage of information to the consumer . What spirit looking closely whether there may be violation of the ftc act for the robinson act also prohibits certain times a kickback. I believe hundred 2c of the act overtly laying out our authority to making sure we are using them to address these issues. Often times we hear from how they have not been able to afford lifesaving medicine potentially because some of these tactics. We recognize the urgency of this work for. Progress again on behalf of consumers and seniors and kids out there, thank you for your work on the work of your entire team. The yield back. Whats a gentleman from arizonas recognize pickwick thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for being here today. I will say i wrote down something you set it to get up e court exactly right and wrote it down because not only was it i think substantive meritorious but also its alliterative. Peoples privacy is paramount if only the fbi leadership believed and acted that same way i would be happy. I want to ask you first about the e you digital market act. Previously commented in response to mr. Kleins question, he asked you how much you said you dont know. I wonder how many employees or personnel are working on eu Digital Markets act . My understanding is we currently have one employee to brussels these details are routine theyve gone on for many years. They help improve coordination among agency for us to better understand. Is that employee working to help implement the eu Digital Marketing act or are they just observing . What is their role there . It was a general matter when we do these details they are focused on antitrust enforcement, enforcement of the Competition Laws. But she isnt europe this is implementation of a new law. How does that impact antitrust law in the United States of america . These laws that you noted govern europe it is that European Commission working on implementing, that is the work they are doing. Ours is focused on enforcing u. S. Laws these types of details across agency. That begs the question i will move on the five minute format is ridiculously absurd. We cannot get a full answer for questions. I am hoping that maybe you or your team will response more wholesome length as to why we have somewhere that struck some someone there even observing the implementation of eu law that is not here. Unless you are intending to support Something Like that here. Are you familiar with someone named Rebecca Kelley slaughter . Kelly slaughter . Excuse me . Whats our you. Yes she is my colleague. I have a quote from her interesting. Glad you are here. She has called for Equity Inclusion antiracist agenda antitrust enforcement. Yet antitrust enforcement typically is focused on the foce consumer welfare standard, right . So do you agree with the commissioners call for Equity Inclusion antiracist . Approached antitrust enforcement question or close a verse about is a huge privilege to serve on the commission longtime commissioners she fought so hard about how do we make sure we are using rex beautiful we have five minutes. Send a letter telling a pledge or please but please respond my question regards i would not claim to speak for her. Im not asking to speak for her im asking whether you agree that is the appropriate approach when it is a defective departure from the consumer wherever standard. We enforce the laws of congress charged us with. That includes prohibitions on methods of competition spread. Not to interrupt but to interrupt, you are not answer my question. My question is real specific. Do you support and agree with this new approach which is what it would be it would be a departure from the consumer welfare standard. Do you agree with her call for Equity Inclusion antiracist as a basis to examine antitrust violations . Again we examine antitrust under laws of congress wrote ropercontinued name a single law there with antitrust with the consumer welfare standard replaces it with the Equity Inclusion in antiracist standard . Any statute . Federal statute. The statutes are worded wrong but with close at the text of them as well as any case law reflects give me one that would facilitate obviating the consumer welfare standard. And replace it with Equity Inclusion antiracist dinner. Mr. Concert look you are right there our case on the specific questions i will seven Congress Passed antimonopoly laws are doing so they were worried concentrations of economic power hurt everybody. That is right. That is from that point of view is how the consumer welfare standard developed and evolved. And now if you or take the Equity Inclusion antiracist agenda you sent your new standard he would have moved away from case law and try to impose a new standard. That is the point im trying to make. That is the point you are not responding to i would ask that maybe you, whatever would respond in the future so we have a chance to get to the bottom of that. Appreciate being here, thank you yield back regards joe meals but the gentleman is recognized. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I do want to start by commending congressman buck and gates for their comments earlier today. I was pleasantly surprised to hear the affirmative comments they made with respect to the ftc but also legislation they are working on but i think is important critical legislation. That could be very useful i kind of notes we have not had hearings on legislation like that word we have had a lot of hearings for weaponization issues and a lot of hearings trying to protect the biden attn administration in various ways. Weve not had any hearings on affirmative legislation that would have an impact on people in these markets. Among the antitrust subcommittee i think we have had two hearings we had one mr. Massie put together that dealt with agriculture issues i think it was meat packing in small entities. It was not explicitly antitrust hearing it so happened the witnesses at the table noted the Big Four Companies that are dominating that industry are the ones pressing Small Farmers and running them out of business and increasing prices. And i requested at the hearing some sort of approach that would try to address that concern. But nothing has come back yet. I would note this do we have matters pending in the United States before your commission or department of justice some have been mentioned today the pbms, ticketmaster, jetblue, the microsoft matter was held yesterday subcommittee on antitrust and said no hearings on any of those issues whatsoever. So i know this is an oversight hearing with respect to the ftc. It might make sense if we took a moment have a little oversight for ourselves what is going on here on the subcommittee. A few minutes ago it was raised about a subpoena the ftc had issued i guess the comment was it was overbroad. I did want to raise this as well the Judiciary Committee on may 25, 2023 sent a document demand to the department of justice that demand and im quoting all documents and communication between or among the department of justice and the Internal Revenue service referring or relating to any investigation involving both the department of justice and Internal Revenue service for ma. Now we will set aside for a moment that would include grand jury materials potentially which of course they cannot turn over based on a letter like this, even from congress. If we are going to throw rocks, lets make sure we are not in the glasshouse. That is beyond overbroad. I just pages one out of many but there are a lot of requests this committee has sent out to the administration. And in some instances to private companies effect on whether they are on the good side republicans are not. We should be very careful in using the power of the committee and the house of representative one to close with this point the recusal issue that is been discussed quite a bit. I think it has been addressed i thought it made it crystal clear. Why you did not need to recuse yourself. On judging the motions have been filed to him who is not necessary or appropriate. But the same time the committee is ignoring what are the most obvious issues with respect to recusal and ethics thats respect to the Supreme Court. We had 35 letters on the speaker and Committee Chair raising the issues we have all heard of them Justice Thomas and you got billionaires buying property and taking them on yacht trips and the like. Justice alito had similar sorts of issues. We sent letters to both the speaker on the Committee Chair asking to have hearings that we should take a look at code of conduct for Supreme Court justices. We should consider this rules in place to recusal for members of congress. To the best of my knowledge there is no response to this letter. More importantly no steps have been taken to try to address the issues that have been made very obvious by the conduct of Justice Thomas and Justice Alito. That is just the beginning. I would move for unanimous consent limit oped to Justice Alito here himself, and then Samuel Alitos life wife to an oil and gas firm while the injustice about the epa. And then a letter dated april 17 to honorable Kevin Mccarthy and honorable jim jordan its from 35 plus members of the house. I would ask all of these be made part of the record. Without objective gentleman you expect the jump from californias recognized. Wall street journal column written by kristine wilson, she resigned from the ftc because of a range of concerns i have discharge her duties. But what caught my attention was the censoring of her dissent in the meta acquisition case. Severe disagreements around her far from the course we go to Great Lengths everyday on this committee to demonstrate that. But, we sort out our differences by freely exchanging our views. Confident this process will separate truth from lies, wisdom from folly. A free Society Depends on people knowing the difference for themselves. Censoring speeches utterly destructive in this process but can you explain why the commissioner criticizing your conduct was censored . Congressman i could not agree more that type of debate and discussion is critical. Congress is on ftc is a multimember commission we enjoy enjoy the discussions and debate progress obviously not because her comments in her dissent were censored. So why was that . How do you explain that . When the Commission Procedures work i was walled off from those divisions as the majority of the commission explains they were identifying nonpublic information relating to staff analysis and material protected by deliberative process that we have longstanding ftc policies adopted during the Reagan Administration that says we do not disclose that type of analysis because we do not. Did you have any discussions with your colleagues over this . No again i was totally walled off from the preceding requests what you see is the role of government in determining what is misinformation or for that matter hate speech . The ftc focus on deceptive advertising so i guess if a company it says something is made in america but its actually made in china that from our perspective is fraud progress you were discussing twitter about an hour ago. Do you see the government having any role in determining what is misinformation or what is hate speech . We are not involved in that. Again were focus on deceptive advertising like made in usa fraud and thats really what we are focused on. What is your view of capitalism . Excuse me . Whats what is your view of capitalism . Ask ftc job is to promote. No, no, no what is your view on capitalism . What could you smite me by that System Customer and consistent bad to somebody cisterns and weaknesses . Open, competitive robust resilient markets are critical to americas economic success of the ftc is the honor of playing a really Important Role in ensuring our markets are open and competitive and position america to compete globally. The beauty of a capitalist system is the fact that consumers every day but with every dollar they spend on with the economy will produce and what price theyre willing to pay. Do you see a role in government and interposing its judgment to theirs . The role of the ftc is one of a referee. We believe in open competitive markets but in order for these markets to deliver good outcomes we need to make sure companies are playing by the rules of fair competition for that is a job Congress Give ftc and that is what we do. I think you go much further that i certainly hope you will take to heart the economic criticisms that you have heard today. The mergers for example generally occur when companies determine its going to improve their inefficiency and productivity and enhance their r ability to serve their consumers. That grows the economy and it helps consumers. I would urge you to be very careful and your colleagues very careful and very humble with your powers because when your decisions harm the economy you are also harming your administration. The average consumer may not file the daytoday decisions of your commission but they know how theyre doing their home lives in oneill the balance of my time to the chairman. Outweighed that back i appreciate the gentleman yielding. Concealed back a coincidental lady from North Carolina is recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. Thank you chair khan for joining us today. And also thank you for mentioning your work on pbm reform in your Opening Statement. This is a very important issue for our healthcare industry. And as you pointed out for the health of our constituents. This congress ive been work with a Bipartisan Coalition of lawmakers to address abuses and exclusionary pricing practices by a pharmacy benefit managers are pbm. Access to affordable Prescription Drugs is a critical issue for all americans. I am hopeful the ftc will take substantive steps to address the ways in which pbms take advantage of patients and providers in the pricing strategies. I know you got a general question from congresswoman dean a little bit earlier. But to be much more specific the ftc has been working on a study june of 2022. When do you anticipate completing that study and do you have any interim conclusions or findings that you can share with us today . Thanks congresswoman. As i noted we recognize very deeply the urgency of this work. Potentially means patients are not getting access to Affordable Medicines and that is we all know can have lifeanddeath consequences. We are with great haste. We are dependent on the companies to provide us information in a timely way. We are trying to drive that forward as much as we can in general. Historically some of the studies the agency had taken four years, five years, my goal is for us to be able to move more expeditiously. I should also note as if during a matter of course for this inquiry instead identify practices we would determine are unlawful, nothing would stop us from being able to focus on some of this Law Violations and proceed on the enforcement track instead. Great. Also ftc recently expanded the scope of pbm investigation to include Group Purchasing organizations or gpos that have opened in recent years. How does the ftc believe pbms might be using these gpos and what kind of harm could they have in the market for Affordable Drugs . Gpos are another one of these entities that are not visible to consumers the player really central middlemen role in the market. We have sent out additional requests we want to make sure we are getting a full 360 view of whats happening with these practices. I should also note we have all read stories about major shortages of critical drugs. We have also received letters and input suggesting the rule may also be contributing to some of the shortages of essential medicine that something on a reader as well. Great. Given the three large pbms are currently testament they currently control 80 of the market i am interested in how consolidation within the pbm industry affects Patient Access and cost customer in addition to the consolidation the largest drug Plan Sponsors also own their own pbms. We are seeing a great deal of vertical integration as well. We know pbms set up to pocket costs based on full undiscounted list price of drugs so patients do not see a lot of the pbm discount at the pharmacy counter. We know some health plan own pbms require patients to fill prescriptions only at certain pharmacies or providers which reduces access. How are you seeing this consolidation and vertical integration impacting patients . That is such a great points. This is one of the issues on which we are routinely hearing from people we open a docket to collect input about what people are hearing about pbm practices. We received thousands of Public Comments. Many of them from patients who are concerned some of the decisions about which medicine the pbms are putting on the formulary or are not putting on his not been driven by what is best for the patient but is instead potentially being driven by which is going to give the pbm the highest rebate . That could be an instance theres a conflict of interest between what is in the pbm own interest in what is best for patients. That is something weve heard a lot about. If i dont quick question do you see a role for congress in this area as well . Not just what your agency does. Absolutely visits is that such an urgent problem related to unaffordable drug prices for americans its all hands on deck moment. Thank you, mr. Chairman i yield back. Quick to judge lady is back the judgment from texas is recognized for to the thank you for coming here to testify before the committee would you commit to me to provide all updates necessary with respect to the elleithee golf merger and also look into what is occurring with that . Congressman i believe its is ourpartners at the Justice Department and looking at that vagrants ftc is having some look into whats going on there at least of the news comes i see ed appreciate any updates to my office about that im going to heal the balance of my time to the chairman. Think the gentleman yielding. Miss khan earlier to play the general from arizona brought this up peoples privacy is paramount, i could not agree more. As we talked earlier i do think theres bipartisan support to deal with that the sweeping up of data that happens in scarier yet the fbi purchasing that data. That is of paramount importance. Also the first amount is of paramount importance would you agree . Absolutely provokes a gentleman from california as to what is this information you said you dont have an opinion on that is that correct . Is that the assessment of your answer . Its part of our job we are focused on deception, fraud, that sort of thing. You wrote a couple years ago and eight law review article additional businesses such as twitter to serve the users by facilitating the spread of disinformation. What were you talking about their then . What is disinformation . Im happy to take a closer look at the material you are mentioning. As part of our work at the ftc we have seen how fraud in scams can sometimes proliferate on a social media websites beat launch an inquiry to try to understand why are some of the crypto scams really liberating on these sites what should we be doing question. First to sense and introduction of the piece you wrote to get a couple years ago Digital Businesses such as twitter to serve the users by facility in the spread of disinformation. Who decides what is different disinformation . Question ftcs perspective its deception and fraud. Thats fine you can sell using synonyms i want to know who decides it is deception who decides that it is radford who decides its disinformation. This case are from a social Media Companies what gets posted on the platform. Who decides what is disinformation, what is a question. Congressman again at the ftc we are focused on fraud and deception. There is a Legal Standard about what constitutes fraud. Again this is not. You not say fraud or deception user disinformation. My concern is again is probably the third time ive talked about this the sustained attack on twitter when the ownership there change the platform was committed to not taking down speech. Not taking down posts along the sharing of information not censoring information. We just had a major decision last week from a federal court in louisiana they said the government was in fact pressuring big Tech Companies to censoring big tech companys were willing to go along with whatever change their vehicle after the one company that is change how theyre doing things that is what concerns me especially in the vector wrote about this a few years ago and say this what goes on. Congress complex had the opportunity to clarify. We at the ftc has no view on who should or should not own a company. All we care about is that the company is following the law. That is really what our focus is requested covered that grant i want to know about disinformation on who decides what is disinformation for government should decide that . Congressman the way i see it as concentrations of economic power, including over speech platforms and communication platforms it is the concentrated power in the ability to pick who gets hurt, who does not get heard to make these types of decisions. That is concerning to all of this for the ftcs job is to be promoted. Had his speech was getting centage of the court said last week have you read the opinion by the by kuester. Im not did not concern ftc. Do you know what kind of speech was getting sensor junk the court said . Conservatives speech. It was all concert is not jim jordan is not republicans talking the federal judge who had the fax 86 pages of facts laid out the facts in the lot together in his opinion a strong opinion which i was conservatives speech that was getting censored. And labeled as disinformation for. Congressman i fully understand why given extreme concentration of power over some of the speech platforms, white people be afraid and worried about censorship i could not agree more so when you have a handful of people making decisions about what gets seen and what doesnt get seen for. You think the remedy to that is for government to decide what is disinformation what is not . Congress and the ftc our job is to write competition more competition means more people making these decisions. I think that can alleviate some of the concerns about censorship that you are sharing. A gentleman time has expired the chair recognizes the gentle lady from georgia . Okay did not who walked in first week the judge led from georges residence for five minutes regards thank you chair jordan good afternoon ive read your testimony thank you for your time and your testimony. Ensuring emerging american businesses have an opportunity to grow and to thrive is essential for our economy. One at the most american practices so to speak america is a country that is built on the success of creative and innovative ideas. The determination of the grit of its people is so vital. The endless opportunities of its society and for these reasons we must do all that we can and our power to support competition as you just mentioned and fight monopolies which crush american opportunities. Our robust antitrust framework support Small Businesses by helping to ensure they are not intimidated into conciliation and empowers the American People by allowing them freedom of choice in the marketplace. Strengthens American Workers against monopolistic efforts to lower wages and eliminate their benefits. That is why it is so wonderful to have you here today. Thank you so much for being here at the helm of ftc. You have actually been a champion antitrust and competition for years americans economy is much stronger for it. In fact the u. S. Has the highest post pandemic growth and closed inflation. 3. 7 . That must be noted here today. They spoke earlier enforcement antitrust law. Competition across United States economy. While protecting consumers and workers critical to protecting our consumers our workers innovation and equitys consolidation across all markets with his innate nursing home industry, Tech Industry or agriculture industry can you comment on how this is applied in the context and large mergers of effects smaller competitors in the marketplace. When we see it mergers between two large firms, especially their come competing in the same market that can make it more difficult for newer entrance to come into the market. Could have a difficult time competing on a level Playing Field of the merger is leading to market power that allows the merge firms special terms or discriminatory benefits theyre not available to others. For. Thank you these past two Terms Congress has extra been examining the role of big Tech Companies in the exercise of market dominance, which has allowed them to make a profit on to leverage their gatekeeper power over small and new companies and competitors. Can you talk about the steps that you are taking to ensure Smaller Companies especially tech marketplace get a chance to compete against bigger more entrenched companies . The ftc is milliken close additional markets since before i joined the commission. What are the first actions we took when i joined was refiling the ftc amended complaint against facebook the ftc is alleging facebook acquisition of instagram and whatsapp were anticompetitive and helps facebook maintain its dominance in ways that locks out rivals really hurts consumers at the end of the day. We are continuing to look closely at mergers and acquisitions to make sure it if these acquisitions are similarly going to create dominance and allow to maintain their monopoly that we are acting swiftly there for. Under your tenure ftc has endeavored to restore meaningful antitrust Law Enforcement over the last two years but in this process the ftc has made some powerful enemies have you not . [yes for. Yes a lot of folks guess progress isnt the Lesson Learned here antitrust agencies should trust vigorous competition and antitrust enforcement to deliver innovation Better Services rather than enabling entrenched gatekeepers to continue going through acquisition of markets . Absolutely. Americas history shows that we promote fair and open competition that is with that produces innovation for. Thank you out of time. Thank you. I can take five made some take a real brief time there. Same problem yesterday i didnt do havea question for the witne. Some of the same stuff at the fbi yesterday. They are ending up censoring the American People so interesting to hear yesterday the director of the fbi was here and he said these Companies Work within the free market. We cannot change how they go about operating. But when you have a federal agency, whether its the fbi or the ftc that comes calling at your front door and they say gosh, maybe you should be doing things a little bit differently, they Pay Attention i would use the example of the man who originated facebook. He said in a podcast in the last year that in regards to the fbi when they come calling you are going to Pay Attention. And censorship happens from there. I hope that you are cognizant of that as you go about doing your business. The second thing that i would say was that we talked about entrenched gatekeepers and stuff like that. The barriers to entry that been built here in washington d. C. Over the last few decades are significant. Ill go back to two major bills that are over a decade old now. One being obamacare. The other one being dodd frank. We see probably the least entrepreneurship that has happened in the healthcare and finance and Banking Industries that we have seen in decades. Because the barriers to entry are so high. I sure hope you will respect that. That while building these regulations out here, while passing laws that happen over a decade ago in regards to obamacare and dodd frank, it has harmed the rest of america. It has harmed entrepreneurs. It has harmed main street america when they no longer have a bank with their bank being consolidated into something that is bigger. So you may say boy, we are going to go after these big companies. But we created them here. And i hope you will not participate in creating additional barriers to entry so that entrepreneurs cannot participate in the Free Market Society that was built in the United States of america over the last nearly 250 years, yelled back. Thank you. A couple questions i had, using a little bit of this time there. The gentleman from georgia mentioned he thought you were being treated unfairly is about an hour and a half ago differently because of your ethnicity because of your color. Do you believe that is true . Congressman i am focused julie thats true, if you watch a hearing i was offended by it ifyou watch the hearing yesterdy we gave a gentleman a pretty thorough raking over asking some difficult questions. Help you do not feel that way, im wondering if you do its a yes or no for. Point of order. Yes. Stricture just wanting whose time youre using right now quick seal the back is time to me. Thank you. Go ahead. Just give me a yes or no do you think youre being treated fairly . Emmanuel macron is a robust debate among the committee about these issues and i defer to you all. Whats one thing so love to change we asked was a yes or no they would it so hard to be will come before us. I wanted to say one is in two and then we will move on. Robocalls it or you heard about them today. Its a really big deal. You want to talk about the way you are affecting peoples lives they are sophisticated, they are scary people are getting in trouble because of them everything from Social Security to buying timeshares if they really big problem. I would love to work with him across the eye would love to work with him to do something about that issue. Ive other questions for you later. This put a wreck and isolate gentle lady from missouri. Thank you. St. Louis we are here in strong support of the rights of workers that monopolies access to information thank you for being here chair khan appreciate as a staffer on this committee on antitrust law and into monopoly issues and your record of accomplishments as the chair. The commission has Important Role to play in protecting our economy from the harms caused by greedy reckless corporations that put profit and power over people. Look at big tech, big pharma, big oil, any other concentrated industries these companies and the profit of their executives behind them have abused their power for too long. It is time to be held accountable. So we absolutely need to level the Playing Field for workers and consumers, ftc cat and is trying to help with your leadership i appreciate that because it makes a real difference in communities like mine. For example in recent years ftc lawsuits have resulted in more than 33 million provided to more than 178,000 missourians. In 2020 alone the ftc provided 8. 6 million to people in missouri including st. Louis. That is real money for real people harmed by corporate greed. It is food on the table, it is roof overhead. It is for child. Another example is the proposed rule to be a noncompete agreement. Chair khan i was brought up earlier than eight noncompete agreement is estimated based wages by over 200 billion each year. Want to close racial and gender wage gaps up to 9. 1 is that correct . Congresswoman to be laid out in her notes or proposal making those are some the estimated effects yes. Thank you. Thats a lot of money in the pockets of workers in black and brown people and women in particular. Can you explain specifically how obtaining noncompete agreements means workers will get paid more . What our staff did his look very closely at the empirical evidence that is not serviced in light of the different state policies we have seen. What we have seen is states that have limited noncompete are able to ensure workers are moving around more freely. All to often theyre still trying to include noncompete. Being able to switch jobs, not being able to move freely between jobs and get better Job Opportunities is a key mechanism that workers have to used to be able to get higher wages and better employment opportunities. When you locked in place through non competes that means theyre not able to go across the street in the firm across the street is offering better wages thats bad for workers. You absolutely. Its real impact that slaves lives. The party in the pockets of White Supremacists wealthy corporations will top a big game about fighting for everyday people and show up to congress and do whatever the corporate donors but one thing to do. There is nothing unethical about standing up for workers is nothing unethical about enforcing the law against powerful and destructive Companies Like amazon, med and twitter. There is nothing unethical about putting your principles into practice. But what is unethical is being apologist for the corporate greed that is fleecing our community. What is unethical is claiming to care about workers and then selling them out. That is the real ethics scandal here on we need not forget it. The bottom line is that the corporate monopoly are a recipe for social destruction. Any lawmakers who claim to stand for workers and consumers much advocate against dominance on large private companies. That care more about profit than people we need to aggressively enforce our antitrust laws for the purposes congress intended we also need to move beyond the Digital Economy dominated by billionaire owned forprofit companies. Chair khan you have never tried to hide who you are or what you believe then i admire you for that. I thank you for your leadership and i look forward to working with you and your agency on these Critical Issues for thankk you and yield back. Thank you recognize the gentleman from North Carolina. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Ms. Khan. The ftc was disclosed sent a civil investigation to open ai. Be familiar with that . s involves nonpublic information if its an publicly reported. It is on twitter for a weather chatgpt would generate about persons could you explain the just civil investigative demand is being issued that the general matter some the concerns we are seeing at this ai space is chatgpt and some these other services are being fed a huge trove of data. There are no checks on what type of data is being inserted into these companies. We have heard about reports or people Sensitive Information is showing up in response to an inquiry for someone else. Her about libel defamatory statements untrue things that are emerging. That is a type of fraud and deception that we are concerned about parts of general proposition you just since of these spoke to libel and slander or defamation issues. Im going to come to that thats an issue of state laws i understand it. A short regulatory reach they are defined by ftc act . Is that the basis under which you investigate that stuff with the company like ai . Its true we do not directly address those things. We are focused on is there substantial injury to people . Injury, but all sorts of things for. You are speaking earlier in communication with the chairman about the twitter background on releasing private information was also subject to regulatory reach under the ftc act because it was somehow deceptive . Was there some other statutory source that generally put you guys in charge of Sensitive Information about people question. Ftc act prohibits unfair methods of competition prevents primarily the authority we used. That is interesting. For the people in the public, the operative language of section five that you guys i think are using there and in the context of the noncompete rule that you have come out with just says unfair methods of competition in or affecting commerce and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce are hereby declared unlawful. That is the language . Whats that is right. Is not very detailed. Can ask you for a minute about the noncompete rule question rick you have this proposed rule youre seeking comments on. The administrative process once those comments are reviewed you guys will decide the ftc will decide whether to proceed with the final rule is that though it works basically . That is correct. In that case i litigated these types of contracts and state law for 30 years. California has a rule that bans them there are different renditions of law some statutory, some made by the courts over time and states of the country there have been for a long, long time. So what youre rule would do is displace all the state contract law and one fell swoop if it were made final, wouldnt it . It would create new yes it would be creating a provision that would be determining art rule unlawful. You would not only it would be per se. Some of the stuff stated in your notice of proposed rulemaking that i glimpsed said you saw this as inherently coercive are the product of unequal bargaining powder power. The rule except for a very narrow category with the overwhelming majority would be per se even to the people involved in those contracts wanted to make it, right . That is the proposal. We did ask is part of our notice of proposed rulemaking some questions about whether there are adjustments for. A fog about 30 seconds left let me ask you this. If you take that example or others that have been talked about you concerns of economic power is there a basis to be concerned about concentration of legal power of lawmaking power . Youve got 30,000 state judges have made those rows you got 7000 biter 58 state legislators. Lots of members of congress multiple chambers and commerce. The fact is a member on the ftc could make such a ruling is in the summit, should be concerned about much power you yield . Books to make the determination pursuant to Authority Congress has given us. When we promulgate rules goes to the administrative procedure act as a whole set of procedural protections that go into plate relating to the ta public input. There are certain standards of review for judicial review. There is some hx as part of this process quite regular for administrative agencies to be engaging in rulemaking for. You get to say what is unfair, right . Interesting comments passed in the ftcs having a debate this it should be actually defined . Should we list out in the statute all the practices that should be unfair . Congress to german businesses are so innovative deal find ways to do it and one around any of the practices lets allow the ftc to use her expertise to make sure his markets are evolving as Business Trends are evolving they can make sure there Statutory Authority is keeping pace. This was a determination and a decision congress made to use that language we file the text of the law. I wish i had more time i yield back. Recognize a gentlewoman from vermont. Thank you mr. Chair before begin my line of questioning what to make note of something. Republican codes of trust refute that today on the boards of a thirdparty auditor was deposed as part of the twitter lawsuit. I think its really important to point out for the sake of transparency that this deposition was filed last night and here we are talking about it today. I believe in coincidence i really do. Thats a pretty lucky coincidence that the evidence ee supposedly providing the republican accusations was released in such a timely manner. Think its really important to make note of that. Chair khan thank you for being here. Thank you for being here to the bitter end. I appreciate your testimony this morning. I would like to touch on an extremely timely controversy oh issue which is artificial intelligence. Specifically i like your thoughts on generative ai and competition. It is tough to match an Online Platform escaping gaining even more power it seems big tech firms controller ai systems and access to cloud data are in a position to do just that. I find that alarming as to many of my constituents back in vermont. What i would like to ask you is how could Ai Technology lead to an even more consolidated internet landscape with even fewer choices for consumers . Congress moment let me say first about these moments of technological disruption we do have Game Changing technology these moments often times provide a lot of opportunity for disruption and displacing the existing incumbents. There is always a chance that will be the effect. I think you are right that with these technologies we see inputs required here that really favor dominance. Unique huge amounts unique access to huge amounts of data. The models are staff recently published lang out some of these concerns could be. I think were absolute right we all did to be very vigilant to make sure this potentially Transformative Technology is not for their consolidated market power that could really harm competition. How would a firm use ai and cloud access to illegally expand their market power . What would that look like . I do not want to engage in hypotheticals. The type that we let in the blog post tradition the types of concerns you might have if firms with market power are conditioning access to one set of technologies in critical inputs on firms having to also buy other services. Those types of tying agreements especially with the exclusionary effect can be concerning under the antitrust law. Greg so you concerned about this issue in relation to the Digital Markets . In general we are very concerned about competition Digital Markets yes. Might last time here i also did touch on another issue which is dark patterns. Amazon primus reached a point its practically impossible to avoid. Ftc took amazon to task for using a series of digital tricks or dark patterns to enroll people in prime without their consent or to prevent people from canceling their prescription this is something i hear a lot from my constituents about. Lester the agency reported that quote more and more companies are using digital dark patterns to trick people into buying products and giving away the personal information. How common is it for Online Companies use these dark patterns . Enforcing through our work we have seen it is too common. We see Companies Using these tricks. Our staff published a report going into detail the different types of dark patterns that we see. They are tracking or trucking og people into making choices they are not really seeking to make. To make sure we are fully grasping how the dark patterns are working. We have been bringing on board a whole set of technologists able to dig deep, work under the hood and figure out what is really going on is going to continue to be an area of focus for us. But something you said there really struck me. It is essentially about taking away peoples choice when you are not transparent about the ways in which consumers are being entrapped into signing up for something or not being able to cancel something that is taking away their ability to vote with their dollars essentially which is something weve heard about his hearing today. What effect does this then have on competition and privacy and innovation just briefly . Books we want to make sure companies are competing we do not want honest businesses to lose out to firms that are engaging in dark patterns these types of deceptive practices there is a Consumer Protection component theres also a competition. I appreciate that thank you yelled back. Thank you i recognized the gentleman from oregon. Thank you mr. Chair and thank you for being here today and for your patience. Was that bitter in phrase theologies using the entire conversation has been externally interesting i appreciate you being here to share thoughts. I will set this up with a standard question. Do you agree to the following statement from former commissioner wilson the agency lacks expertise in some cases a jurisdiction to pursue the additional goals embodied in the strategic plan. Im jumping just to the phrase unwanted Health Safety and privacy risks im actually looking at the plant right now for example privacy risks tell me how those became part of the focus of the ftc . This seems to be an expansion on what the ftc used to focus on or maybe im wrong. I think you said unwarranted Safety Health and privacy risk is that right . I sent reading the ftc focus on conduct that caused likely to cause substantial injury to the public this includes not only monitor injury but also for example unwarranted Health Safety and privacy risks. The statute says an unfair practice is one that causes substantial injury. Substantial injury is not defined but for years now the ftc has interpreted that in the courts have ratified that to mean not monetary harm not just losing money but certain types of harm to wellness, safety and health. Some of the deceptive advertising cases could so you firm to courts . I want to move on. If you could provide me with the cases you are referring to please so that i can see the courts you are relying upon for that effort. Let me slide that decide to go to the next issue this is one of course you brought up in your famous paper. The amazon paradox the issue is forgive me im not an expert in the space i did mine take this class in law school but my question with antitrust is what if not the consumer welfare standard, what standard . I am facing this right out of the book in about 25 hours i will never get back that i would have spent reading and prayer my question to you is if not that standard what standard are you going to apply . Or do you still apply the sole standard in determining the challenges that bigness creates . We have applied the text of these statutes that Congress Passed him look closely at the language in the statute that Congress Passed consistent with legal precedent. If i may, if i recall correctly there was a mishmash of legal precedent you could select among almost any standard. That was one of the reasons he was so clear in stating what he thought would be the proper standard. That is the best for the consumer. So i am asking you if you are going to move away from that standard which he so artfully articulates in his book, what is the new standard . We are focused on the law including caselaw pickups wait, wait, wait. I just pointed out there is any number of standards just grab one so when you say you are looking at the law, which law . The sherman act the clayton at the ftc act. They were written to be very broad into give you the power to try to control this economy that we have gods. Went in and tried to find some create a standard against which you could miss your actions. His ideas were accepted. I think your article, you would know this way better than anyone in this room the question is what is the new standard do not take me into the log dont do that tell me what do you have thats better than what was suggested . An instance where the Supreme Court said for example the sherman act should be interpreted consistent with consumer welfare, of course we look closely at that. The sherman act is not the only statute for the ftc we are charged a prohibited unfair methods of competition. I think its incredibly important for us to honor congress intense pickups wait, wait, whats up a lot are generalizations what is the standard . What are you suggesting to take the place of the consumer welfare . What is your sinner please do not give me generalizations because a standard depends on the statute that we are enforcing. Each statutory scheme is slightly different. We are in force in the ftc act words of the ftc act or unfair methods of competition. That is the standard where we are enforcing we laid out a policy Statement Last year that laid out in great detail what that standard means reflecting the century of case law pickups im out of time i will look at your explanation i appreciate your time today thank you. We are going to take a five minute recess we are going to strictly adhere to that it will be five minutes