Transcripts For CSPAN2 David McKean Watching Darkness Fall 20220801

So, thank you. Thank you. Were so happy here for our 18th annual reading festival to have david mccain. Hes ill talk to a moment about him. Hes going to have some remarks and then if you have questions, please step to the microphone because were weve really appreciate cspan being here today with us. David mccains new book watching darkness fall fdrs ambassadors in the rise of adolf hitler is a fascinating read i encourage you all to to get a copy david is served as Us Ambassador luxembourg from 2016 to 2017 previously served as director of planning. He joined the state department in april 2012 a singer advisor to secretary of state clinton for the quadrennial diplomacy and Development Review in 2011. He was a Public Policy scholar at our friends at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for scholars and previously his also served as the ceo of the john. Kennedy library foundation, of course the Kennedy Library one of the president ial libraries so hes an old friend of ours as well in even prior to that. He was this after of the Us Senate Foreign Relations Committee and chief of staff to senator kerrys personal office from 99 to 2008 so he knows about what he writes as a in terms of american diplomatic history. He is the author not only of this book but also partners of first resort America Europe and the future of the west as well as friends in high places with douglas, france, tommy the court the great decision with cliff sloan and suspected of independence the life of thomas mccain. Okay. Thank you. Americas first power broker. He graduated a magnet kumar laity from harvard in 1980, and he also holds degrees from both the Fletcher School of law and diplomacy at duke university. So and hes been on the board of directors of the foundation for the national archives, which were a of course, so i would like to welcome mr. Mccain today. Lets get this set here. Thanks, bill. Thanks for that kind introduction. Im very honored to be back at the at the library. Particularly in the in the company of so many fine authors today. Ive got my reading list for the summer now. And i want to thank all of you for being here as well. Its its a tribute to the the legacy of Franklin Roosevelt. Who is just an extraordinary. Resident but i really appreciate you being here. As bill mentioned im a former ambassador to luxembourg and some of you. May have a vague idea where luxembourg is located. Ill grant you that you will need a very large map to find such a small country. But luxembourg played an Important Role in World War Two. It was invaded an overrun twice by the nazis. Once in may 1940 when hitler invaded the low countries and it was then liberated by the allies in. September in 1944 only to be able to run again months later during battle of the bulge. Which incidentally began . A little more than 77 years ago. And luxembourgs home. A lot of people dont know this luxburg is home to the second Largest Military us Military Cemetery in europe. More than 4,000. American soldiers are buried at the ham cemetery. And i operate when i was ambassador. I am participated in a number of events and more Memorial Services at ham. Where i met many children and grandchildren have fallen american heroes. It also happens to be the cemetery where general George Patton is buried. And patton was married to beatrice air. Who was from my hometown of hamilton massachusetts and they actually planned to move back to to hamilton after the war and as many of you know, he was tragically killed and in a car accident. But all of this to say that luxembourg and my time there played some role in inspiring me to write this book watching darkness fall. The other inspiration was that i wrote a book in 2004. About Tommy Corcoran called tommy the cork and for those of you who dont know Tommy Corcoran. He was arguably fdrs most important political advisor for a brief period of time. And i knew that. National titles never meant that much to Franklin Roosevelt and so i wondered who were the president s most important Foreign Policy advisors. And as you can tell from the subtitle of my book, this is a group biography. Its focused on Franklin Roosevelt and four of those ambassadors in europe. And the ambassadors are william dodd ambassador. Who was the ambassador germany breckenridge long the ambassador to italy . William bullet first ambassador our first ambassador the soviet union and later to france. And finally an ambassador who many of you are undoubtedly somewhat familiar with joseph p kennedy. The Us Ambassador the United Kingdom and the book also includes the supporting cast with Eleanor Roosevelt secretary of state cordell hall. Under secretary sumner wells and harry hopkins. Now one person who read the book is called the story of a Diplomatic Team of rivals. Another is referred to it as describing the fog of peace. And yet another called it the sometimes and somewhat wise men. All i suppose are somewhere true as i wrote in my introduction the ambassadors were problematic problematic team of men who had little in common. Except that they witnessed and interpreted. Many of the most tumultuous events leading up to World War Two for president roosevelt. Indeed as germany under hitler became a nightmare a nation that devolved into a brutal and murderous dictatorship. That ultimately threatened all of europe. Watching darkness fall is very much the story of Franklin Roosevelt and Foreign Policy. Its the story of the of ambassadors of the advice. That is ambassadors gave him. And its its the story ultimately of the faithful decision to take the country to war. And within all of this, i think it tells a story about americas struggle to define itself to define its role in. World so let me take you back briefly to the 1931 election 1932 election, which pitted governor Franklin Roosevelt against the incumbent president herbert hoover. Foreign policy was not an issue at the time. In fact roosevelt never mentioned it. This was the height of the Great Depression. So theyre 25 unemployment the gdp had fallen to a level not seen since 1900. Families were being displaced homeless. There was there was poverty there was hunger. Hoover never had a chance and the advice to roosevelt was just dont make any gaps and dont talk about Foreign Policy anyone easily as everyone knows. And during the 1930s roosevelt was consumed by the challenges of the Great Depression. But he was so very much his own secretary of state and his ambassadors. Where his eyes and ears on the ground . And he valued their insights and their reporting. And as you know, the president was confined to a wheelchair. He did not travel abroad during the 1930s yet what i found so interesting is that before television before the internet before social media roosevelt was actually very well informed about international affairs. And he gathered sort of information from a number of sources, but in assessing the state of affairs in Europe Roosevelt considers his ambassadors in berlin in rome. Paris and in london to be a paramount importance so we kept in close personal contact with them wrote them letters and and he read their memos. And whenever they were in washington dc he met with him personally. But ill return to roosevelt in a few minutes. I want to give you just a thumbnail sketch of each of the ambassadors that who was featured. In watching doctors fall and because i relied heavily on their correspondence. Between these men and the president ill be reading excerpts from their letters. From their diplomatic cables and from their diaries so in 1933 how many months after roosevelt had been sworn in his president . He began searching for someone to fill the important post of ambassador to germany. And he wanted someone of stature to fill that position. And the president had a very difficult time filling this post a number of prominent men turned him down and you may remember that roosevelt actually had run for National Office before in 1920. He was on the ticket with with james cox of ohio. He asked cox in 1933 if he would be our representative in berlin if he would be the ambassador cox flatly turned it down asked at others. Yeah, roosevelt eventually settled on a little known academic named william dodd. Who was the chair of the History Department at the . Diversity of chicago by the way, he was no hes no relation to the former senator from connecticut christopher dodd. William dodd had been raised in Clayton North carolina, i actually spent a lot of my youth in North Carolina and let me tell you claytons a small town. He graduated from Virginia Tech and during his college years. He did spend a year studying in germany. And later during this during his time at the university of chicago. He wrote a very complimentary biography of fellow southerner Woodrow Wilson. And when roosevelt selected him dodd was working on a multivolume history of the south. So i think its fair to say the data had absolutely no idea what he was getting into. He didnt really know anything about american politics. He didnt really know anything about german politics. He had no diplomatic training. Hed never had a job outside of academia. And in stark contrast to most of the ivy educated Ivy League Educated dipl. Serving in europe at the time. He was not a wealthy man, but he did speak adequate german. It was a great story. I mean roosevelt literally caused him on the phone. Hed met him once and he says you know professor id like you to be iron ambassador to germany and dodd couldnt decide if somebody was playing a joke on him or not. He was he was speechless. And roosevelt a short him. This was president roosevelt, and he wanted to see him in the white house. Within the week if possible. And so dodd dutifully went to washington and sat across from roosevelt and he was enthralled and accepted on them. On the spot he also was confirmed by the senate on a voice vote in the summer of 1933. He never had a hearing before this Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Let me tell you thats very unusual. After only a few months in berlin dodd was getting a taste of what life would be like as hitler gained increasing power within the German Government. And all the while nazi thugs roam the streets speeding up political opponents. Yet in his first letter to roosevelt died wasnt sure he equivocated and this is what he wrote to the president. It is impossible as yet to say whether the new regime here is going to take a more liberal or a more ruthless direction. One must remember that german statesmen are quite adolescent in their analysis of international problems. The people have never learned the given tape given take group compromises. Which english and americans always apply . I love that phrase give and take group compromises, and how dot felt it characterized american politics. Not sure anyone would characterize that that way today. Returning to gods letter. He wrote the germans are much here concerned about United States attitudes, but hardly know how to ease down off their dangerous position. This applies especially to the jewish persecution, this is 1933. And on the issue of hitler of dot is way ahead of the American People the way ahead of roosevelt whos made objectives actually were trade. And to seek restitution or reparations from those countries that owed the United States as a result of world war one. Roosevelt never became especially close to god on a personal level, but he began to pay close attention to the ambassadors letters and cables because he knew dodd gave him the unvarnished truth about what was actually happening in germany under hitler. In the fall of 1935 after becoming aware of the extent of germanys remilitarization dodd wrote to roosevelt warning. If italy germany and japan at some critical moment move at the same time in their spheres. I cannot see any way to stop dictatorships. So, this is 1935. Dot as a small town academic hes far more present than than any of us colleagues the state department. But in the end odds extremely unhappy because he feels powerless influence the nazi regime and he feels totally unsupported in washington dc. At the state department. He leaves this post at the beginning of 1937, but he continues to speak out widely. About the dangers that hitler posed to your to europe and to the United States. In a speech at the harvard club in boston in 1938. Dodd warns his audience at hitler is a megalomaniac who will plunge europe into war . And he emphasizes hitlers. Hatred of the and he declares and this is a direct quote. Hitler intends to kill them all again, dodd was extraordinarily prescient as to hitlers intentions and accurate as to the holocaust. President roosevelts ambassador to italy was also appointed in 1933 his name is breckenridge long. And he hailed from the midwest. His ancestor was John Breckenridge who had been Vice President to one of our nations most undistinguished president s the 15th president of the United States james buchanan. Breckenridge long was a graduate of princeton and a seasoned political operative who had run unsuccessfully for the senate. In missouri twice he become friends with Franklin Roosevelt when they both served in the Wilson Administration as many of you know, Franklin Roosevelt was the assistant secretary of the navy at the time. And long they became good friends long. In fact believe that they were such good friends then in 1933 after roosevelt assumed the presidency. Long referred to the commanderinchief not as mr. President , but rather simply as frank. Let me read you a few excerpts from letters that long wrote to frank only weeks after arriving in italy. He describes meeting Benito Mussolini for the first time. Quote he and of comparatively short stature with a very soft well modulated voice and an air of quiet and dignified elegance. And quote in another letter long refers to mussolini as quote a man of astounding character end quote. Longs admiration for the italian leader didnt end there. He wrote quote the fascist in their black shirts are apparently in every community. They are dapper and welldressed and standing straight and land land and atmosphere of individuality and importance to their surroundings. Theres more and long added a line that many of you may recognize. The trains are punctual wellequipped and fast. So in short longest assessment of mussolini was that he might be a fascist dictator, but he made made the trains run on time. And i guess because everyone surrounding hell do today was apparently very well dressed things in italy at least from longs point of view. Were going along pretty well. Longs lack of judgment was even more acute and even dangerous after fdri are appointed him in 1940. As an assistant secretary of state with european immigration being central to our portfolio portfolio. And this is where long did real damage . In a memorandum to one of his colleagues about admitting jewish refugees from europe long road quote. We can delay and effectively stop for a temporary period of indefinite length the number of immigrants into the United States. We could do this by simply advising our consoles to put every obstacle in the way and to require additional evidence and to resort to various administrative advice. Which would postpone and postpone and postpone the granting of visas . And sadly long was quite successful in this in this endeavor and one of my favorite exchanges between Eleanor Roosevelt. Husband the first lady is reading the morning paper. At the breakfast table with the president shes reading about long stonewalling of immigration and of admitting. To the United States and she turns to the president whose buttering his his toes and she says you know, hes a fascist. And you know Franklin Roosevelt who has had this wonderful patrician voice looks up and he says oh eleanor you must not say that. And she stares him deadeye and says i say it because its true. And by the way, i could only find one photograph of breckenridge long and i guess he was a camera shy william bullett is perhaps one of the most interesting diplomats. Youve never heard of or guess he was a camera shy perhaps for good reason. He was the first United States ambassador the soviet union youve never heard of or in a little about he was the first United States ambassador the soviet union as i mentioned and later he was. Us ambassador france a graduate of yale at the age of only 28 he was tasked in negotiate with vladimir lemmon at the paris treaty talks in 1919. In 1926 after leaving government and being very critical of Woodrow Wilson. He wrote a novel that outsold the great gatsby which was published during that same year. He later coauthored a biography of Woodrow Wilson. With Sigmund Freud he counted honoring matisse as a friend and Ernest Hemingway used to drop ice Country Estate outside paris and together they drank. Very good wine. He had an 18,000 bottle wine cellar and they shot clay pigeons. Let me read a few experts from a couple of letters that bullet wrote to president roosevelt some of which are deeply personal. In 1934 after having served in moscow for only a few months bullet wrote. Im about homesick in many years. I have not had the sensation that i had a home. But in this past year talking about 1933. Mrs. You and mrs. Roosevelt have made me feel that i was a member of the family and the thing i miss so much is the afternoons and evenings with you in the white house. Im much too fond of you all. And in other letters, he actually conveyed his love for the president. The bullet as you might have gathered was the consummate flatterer. He left moscow in the summer of 1936 and and months later was appointed ambassador to france. And in 1937 he traveled to berlin where he met with Herman Goring who was the head of the luftwaffe the German Air Force . And died by the way was still the ambassador to germany, but dodd had vowed to never again host or meet with any of the nazi leadership. He was so disgusted with him. And he privately referred to them as murderers. This didnt stop bullet. After meeting goring bullet wrote to president roosevelt. And he recounted how but first he counted how he and the Reich Marshal had sat across from one another and he described the chairs in which they sat. And this is again a quote. These chairs of mammoth proportions covered with threes velvet trimmed with gold. The chairs were so big that goren looked looked rather less the size of a normal man. And as you know, he strongly resembles the hind evident hind end of an elephant in my chair. I must have looked like some kind of animated flea. On to describe the substance of the meeting with the head of the lufwafa. Growing expressed to me his desire to have better relations with the us. However, neither he nor anyone else in the German Government could recognize dodd as an american ambassador. Dodd was too filled with venomous hatred of germany and quote. Bullet who really wanted to be secretary of state and often acted as though he were the secretary of state advised the president to replace dot as soon as possible. And he wrote this in a for any man who spoke good german and had brains and bluntness. It would i think be the easiest thing in the world to have a direct relationship with goring. So bullet to put admirely had great ambition ambition and very very sharp elbows. For several months in 1938 bullet council roosevelt that the only way to avoid a european war was if there could be some sort of a reproach small between germany and france. And he offered up not surprisingly offered up himself deserves the intermediary. But after hitlers troops invaded poland in september 1939. And Great Britain had declared and Great Britain and france and had declared war on germany. Bullet changed his tune. He immediately began to advise the president to rearm the United States. He was really the first to do so. In fact little fighting a massive program to manufacture airplanes. In fact little fighting took place in the western front until may 1940 when germany invaded the local countries including as i mentioned luxembourg and then breached the french imagine a line and in june of 1940 as German Forces amassed on the outskirts of paris. Ambassador bullet wrote the president the paris police have no weapons except antiquated singleshot rifles. Bullet added that he had no intention of evacuating the embassy even though quote we have exactly two revolvers in this entire mission with only 40 bullets. And roosevelt by the way had told him he should have evacuate. And then bullet ads in this letter in case i should get blown up before i see you again. I want you to know that it has been marvelous to work for you. And i think and i thank you from the bottom my heart for your friendship. So bullet to say the least had a real flair for the dramatic. The last ambassador who i including the book is Joseph B Kennedy who story i assume many of you familiar with kenned. About never really liked each other. And you get the feeling that there were always playing the kind of political chess match against one another. But the board was almost always stacked against kennedy. In part because he was his own worst enemy. So, let me share with you a few stories, which i think will give you a flavor of the relationship with between the two men. Well vacationing on the French Riviera in the summer of 1939 and without approval from the department of state ambassador. Kennedy granted an exclusive interview to the hearst newspapers. Now this was his first mistake. This was one this was the newspaper chain owned by one of president roosevelts most vociferous critics. William Randolph Hearst and in the interview kennedy made clear his belief. That the United States should stay on the sidelines if war came to europe. He advised americans in this article quote. Not to lose their heads. Now by this point in 1939 roosevelt knew that the United States might have to become involved in europe president did not appreciate having one of his ambassadors limiting his options and especially didnt like the implication that somehow the us. Might reach an economic a combination with the third reich, which exactly what kennedy advocated. That same summer secretary of the treasury henry morgenthau. I think hes also another resident of the Hudson Valley or was visited kennedy at the return to washington morgenthal met with roosevelt in the oval office and he fed by suggesting that kennedys close relationship with british Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain was based on their mutual view that appeasement of hitler was by suggesting that kennedys close relationship with british Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain was based on their mutual view that appeasement of hitler was the right strategy roosevelt agreed. And then with morgan saw sitting directly across from him the president made this stackless study the startling accusation quote. I dont think there is any question, but that joe is disloyal to his country and however in 1939 roosevelt wasnt ready to get rid of kennedy indeed is he wanted to keep him he wanted to keep him in england . As far away as possible from the 1940 us president ial election. Fdr worried that if kennedy returned to america. He might make political mischief and might even run for the presidency himself. And after referring to kennedy as a trader in 1939. The following year the president wrote kennedy a letter that expressed a very different sentiment telling him joe i get constant reports of how valuable you are to the british and that it helps their morale to have you there. So like bullet president knew how to flatter men. Nevertheless after only a few days a few days after roosevelts reassurances. Kennedy picked up the morning paper in london and learned that the president had been secretly negotiating and lendlies. With Prime Minister churchill and this the provision of mothballed ships and and weapons with the road for the british. Kennedy was outraged. He immediately wrote the president quote. Ive been fairly active in any enterprise which ive taken up for the last 25 years, frankly, and honestly, i do not enjoy being a dummy. Im very unhappy about the whole position. And of course as always the alternative of resigning. And in the end thats exactly what happened kennedy resigned. But he did so quite late in the political season. And roosevelt was happy to see him leave at this point. Have him leave london. And he largely kept him on the sidelines in 1940. So roosevelts it was successful. So watching darkness falls the story of these form ambassadors and the president they served. And i try to provide the backdrop of what was happening politically not only in europe with the rise of fascism. But in the United States as well. Roosevelt was constantly balancing as Foreign Policy concerns against his domestic considerations. And as i noted at the beginning of the talk, the president s ambassadors were problematic group. I write that breckenridge long. Maybe the worst appointment that roosevelt made or as in during his entire presidency. And the kennedy appointment was illfated from the beginning. Named dodd was pressing and he influenced fdr by sounding the alarm very early about hitler. And william bullet despite his his view of himself as as someone who should be the secretary of state. He played a very Important Role in convincing roosevelt to rearm the United States at a critical time. And as for roosevelt, you know, i consider him simply as one of the americas greatest president s. You know and i led the country through the Great Depression and met the challenge of world war. Two but he is a just an extraordinary person. But hes not a man without flaws. His speech writer Robert Sherwood famously wrote of the president s quote heavily forced in forested interior. Heavily forested interior his character was not only multiplex. It was contradictory to a bewildering degree. And i think thats completely accurate roosevelt was an enormously apathetic individual, but he was also very unsentimental when he needed to be he was an idealist. But he was also a very cleareyed pragmatist he was enormously political. But he was very courageous. So finally, ill just say that i appreciated the blurbs. I received on the back of the book because i do think they capture what i was trying to convey. My favorite blurb is from publisher prize winner. Kaiberd who praised the book as high drama. Diplomatic intrigue and good chinwag if you dont know what chin wag and i didnt. Youll have to look it up yourself and then by the book and decide if im right and if hes right. So thank you all i very much appreciate you being here again, and im happy to take some questions if there are any. Thank you. I have i have two questions for you. The first one is how much did Franklin Roosevelt know about . Breckenridge long and others in the state department were doing in 1938 1939 1940 1941 to make it as difficult as possible for refugees to enter the United States and my second question is if you could ask fdr one question, what would you ask and what do you think his answer would be . Nothing like an easy question. So on the as far as the first question, im breckenridge long. You know roosevelt was this sounds like an excuse. But again, lets keep in mind that it was the Great Depression and that it was World War Two or at least we were on the verge of a world war in europe during that period that you mentioned 1938 to 1940. He had a lot of he had a lot of balls in the air during that time. And i think he was aware. To some extent of what was happening in the state department in particularly of what . Breckenridge long was doing it was not his highest priority. Theres no doubt about it. He was aware because his wife was telling him. She she was she did everything she could. To influence him on these issues and there were a couple of very famous examples of ships. That came to the United States with aboard who were hoping to immigrate. And in one example eleanor turned the tables on breckenridge long and roosevelt supported her and they were able to disembark from the ship and and it was you know, it was it was a an important moment, but it was only one moment. I also think that. Roosevelt was a was a you know, a complicated individual the country was. Antisemitic the state department was deeply antisemitic. I dont think roosevelt was but i think there were only so Many Political battles that he was willing to take on at the time. And that was just not one of them. So i dont excuse it. Thats why i say that i think roosevelt. You know made a terrible appointment with breckenrich long. His worst but i do think as president. He was facing so many challenges on so many fronts and so he picked us he was as i say, he was pragmatic. He picked his political battles. Question i would want to ask roosevelt and how question, i would want to ask roosevelt and how he would answer it. Face let me let me think about that as for a couple of minutes while others are asking questions and get back down it. Its its a terrific question. Actually, it really is. Its my standard question. Thats why people i wish id met you earlier then. Couldnt come up with an answer either. She said let me think about that. Yeah, you never got back to me. Well, ill try to do better than dora something. Anything else i just finished reading eric larsons book in the garden of beast and i really got a great appreciation of dodd from that book. Why was the state department really against that . Yeah, so, you know since the state department was an interesting institution at that time. It was its having served in the state department. You know, it is now. When i being rebuilt. When i was there it was. Just its its the premier agency in washington. Am i in my view . I mean the people who serve at the state department are dedicated. They are whipsmart. And theyre real patriots. They really are. So i i think very very highly this state department. Its now an institution, you know with 70,000 people both in United States and abroad. Nearly 200 embassies hundreds of consulates in 1933. It was an institution of 25 about 2500 people maybe 3,700 diplomats all men. The rest were support staff all women it was populated almost the diplomatic corps was populated almost entirely. My Ivy League Educated diplomats harvard yale and princeton standing out as the three most likely universities that attended. Roosevelt didnt think highly of the state department at the time. He called them the striped pants boys. And you know ive got got a story. He only visited it at the time it was housed in the Old Executive Office building. He visits at once during his first year in office, and he opens a goes into somebodys office and theres a young, you know a young fellow there whos just totally surprised to see the president United States. But afterwards roswell goes back to his office and he says well he says i think ive given everybody a good scare and theyll be talking about this for months. Of you know dodd was just not. Of that ilk he was he was very for one thing his wealth was he was not a wealthy man, and he was preoccupied. By his lack of i think got in the and it sort of i think got in the way somewhat of his. Of his time in berlin but he was a he just couldnt relate to these other folks in the state department and they could not relate to him. You know when he decided that he was not going to attend any more events with the nazis. The hierarchy in the state department thought it was a huge mistake. They thought youre there to represent the United States no matter what and that that you should be engaged. You know dodd took a you know dodd took a very very different view. So but by the way article arsons book is just a terrific. Its a terrific book. It really is. I highly highly recommend it. You know, i tried to take a little bit of a different take on dodd and to show really how he was being. Manipulated by those in the state department and ultimately forced out. Anything else on the time of the court book, correct. I enjoyed very much. So welcome back. Thank you. I dont id like to ask you a question about something that i dont know very much about but maybe im sure you do but very late in the war late, march april 1945 roosevelts last weeks. There was a side diplomatic effort going on between the germans in italy. And stalin got wind of this and accused the United States of and stalin got wind of this and accused the United States of making a separate piece. And i seem to remember that bullet was responsible for that. Do you know the incidents that im talking of . I dont and bullet at my book actually stops. With pearl harbor and the declaration of war although i then talk about the reaction of the ambassadors to roosevelts death, but i will tell you that bullet and roosevelt had a very serious falling out. In 1941 and that was over the fact that know bullet not only helped to force god out of the state department. He also viewed sumner wells who was the under secretary of state at the time. Who was gay . Um a someone who we i mean again bullet wanted to be more powerful and he went to roosevelt and told him that you know that sumner wells needed to be fired. And roosevelt was friends with summer wells they who else had actually been a not a groomsmen, but he used because he was a child at the time, but hed been in their wedding. And relinar and franklins wedding and they they were old friends the the wellses and the roosevelts. And roosevelt liked sumner wells a lot and he didnt really care about anyones personal life as long as they were doing a good job, and he felt sumner wells was a was a very good diplomat. And he resented deeply what bill bullitt was doing. And i cant remember the quote but it was you know, something as though something to the effect that at some point youll appear before the pearly gates and will not be let in. And so we and he said and then he said and get out of my office, and i never want to speak to you again. So that was the last time that okay. Well, ill have to look this up myself, but it occurred to me. Im sorry occurred to me that this might have been the he might have been the scalawag behind that he also what do you think of his courtship of missy lahand bullets . Was that i was very also a very interesting phaseness as many of, you know, missile hand was roosevelt sort of prized secretary for many many years and she was a you know, she was not only a very kind person and a very organized and wonderful assistant to roosevelt. She loved roosevelt and roosevelt depended on her enormously. And bullet bullet sense this and he recorded missy land. And they did have a relationship for a brief time before he went to the soviet union. And you know the i think roosevelts view as far as i can tell. Was that if missy was happy . He was happy but in the end, you know, the relationship did not did not last and i you know, i think there was more than good chance that because of her proximity to roosevelt that that is why bill bullet decided that this would be a Good Relationship to have. Its interesting, you know bullet is somebody who i quite admire. He means that enormously a talented individual. Hes a i mean its accomplishments are just extraordinary and he was right about a lot of things. He really was he was credited with saving paris. He negotiated with the german general who had bombed rotterdam to smithereens. Just three weeks before to save. Powers from being bombed and he was concedes considered to this day to have been instrumental in saving parents. But theres an awful lot about him and his ambition is overweaning ambition. That is just not you know, its just not attractive at all. Could you talk a little bit about the role if any that gods daughter played in shaving his views . Sure. So again, i dont want to make this a book talk about eric larsen but eric larson spends a of time in. In the garden of beast talking about martha dodd who is dodds . Dodds daughter and martha was a young woman and a very attractive woman. Good good writer. And she accompanied her father to berlin she wound up having affairs with a number of people. Including a russian diplomat a russian diplomat also a number of a number of nazis and with tom the novelist thomas wolfe. I dont actually go into that. I mean to me it didnt have huge influence on on her father and sort of what his views were. Its incredibly interesting, but its not necessarily relevant to the ambassadors. So i was criticized in a wall street journal review for i think they said sort of oddly he does not spend time and i didnt think it was odd at all. Its been well covered in in the book by by eric larson. And so i mentioned it only in passing. But its its an interesting part of its time. Theyre not out about it. Thank you very much. So again, thank you all. If