Nazi billionaires he reported from berlin for four years before that young was a reporter at Bloomberg News in new york where he wrote about hidden wealth and in amsterdam where he wrote about european banking and finance. His work has also appeared in the New York Times the wall street journal and Bloomberg Business week, deyoung was born and raised in amsterdam and currently lives in tel aviv, nazi. Errors is his first book and many of you probably saw his really fantastic hardhitting oped in the New York Times last week. So hopefully well have time to discuss that at well as well. So a word first about how things will work today. David will speak for about 40 minutes and then we will open it up to questions from the audience. Please submit your questions using the q a function at the bottom of your screen. We wont be able to see or hear you but you can submit questions at any time during the talk using the q a function and i will relay them to david. Um, so yeah. So without further ado, its really a great pleasure to to see david again who i got to know a little bit in berlin last year and really excited to hear more about this book, which ive just been reading and i have to say is just a agreed in addition to being about, you know, completely fascinating subject matter. Its its really well written. It reads like a novel so i highly recommend it to everyone. All right now i will hand it over to david. Thank you so much maury for that kind introduction. Um, i am going be talking about. The families in my book. I think the five families are right about in my book. Well, i think very much very well for their patriarchs at least. Very well, i represent this kind of, you know, german big business or at least an overview of german big business because these families were then and are still today. Germanys most prominent business dynasties and and i want to start it off with im gonna try try and condense a century. And from 1919 to 2019 in about 40 minutes, so ill be zigzagging through to five families, but ill start off with the main family the quantity dynasty whose heirs today control control bmw at least two of the errors. Its still germanys wealthiest family today. And their patriarch interquarters loses his wife antonia in the spanish flu of 1918 and in the fall of apartment in the spring of 1919. He takes a nitrine from berlin to castle in the center of germany germany and he meets a well acknowledge, shes not even a woman yet. Shes a girl a 17 year old girl. Called magda friedlander. Not just friedlander who just came out of a relationship with a jewish student named alausorov who later becomes a very wellknown zionist in israel and his and his shot dead on a very mysterious circumstances in 1933 on the beach of tel aviv. She comes out of relationship with with with our laws of when takes at night train. In easter in the easter weekend of 1919 and she meets greener quote. Magda friedlander is the her stepfather is jewish. Shes taking on his last name. He shot friedlander. But she was baptized catholic and race catholic. And she meets contr and they go and they and good one whos 20 years older than she is is completely enamored with her and when marketer gets out at her stop in central germany and goes to the boarding school where she is, you know, he finds her address and he writes to her that very night when he arrives at his destination. And he takes her out on a date and within three days he proposes to her. And gunter has two sons from from his first marriage and he proposed to her and she after long considered her after. Yeah, some consideration. She says yes. And they got married. Or she says yes, and they get engaged. Now however to get married he has one condition has one condition or two condition that she reconverts from catholicism. Back to protestantism which is his lutheran. And secondly that she drops the name friedland friedlander before she gets married and that she reassumes her her birth name rachel, which was her biological fathers name because you know. Of course from his perspective. You know, he could never get married one could never get married to a woman who holds a jewish last name . And i think that is very much that episode where the book start where my book starts with. Its very much emblematic for the thinking of the families or at least the patriarchs of the families. Im writing about this this latent antisemitism as opposed to the really racial antisemitism is convinced antisemitism these men i write about are not they are not convinced antisemites. They are. You know for the most part protestants who you know very much in lutheran theology, you know is is is you know, if for my view deeply antisemitic also many voters who voted in the nazi party. There was a far far higher votes for the nsfa into more protestant parts of germany who saw hitler really as a sort of reincarnation to many of Martin Luther so it is really this this latent antisemitism that is that is prevalent. Not only in a circles of big business, but i would say unfortunately for the most part of of christian German Society both protestant and catholic at that time now going to quant. Was already from a very wealthy family a textile family. Builds up this empire during the era of hyperinflation. As does his well fellow industrious Friedrich Flick who ends up being probably germanys most notorious in this industrious of the 20th century and was eventually convicted the only one of my main characters was eventually convicted a nuremberg for crime for war crimes and crimes against humanity. The two of them separately start very much profiting from from the hype the era of hyperinflation. In the 1920s gunter quant and manages through through hyperinflation, which wiped out most of the middle classes, but for the speculators of the time the stock speculators of the time was a very profitable error managed to take control of a global battery factory afa and a global or a weapons factory or weapons firm called dwm. And that is really the groundwork of the quant business and buyer that they see that they very much profit from from after a hitler sees power in 1933. Now as for free to flick she parlays a Steel Company that he controls into a steel conglomerate. He takes over the united steelworks during the during the hyperinflation era. And it is very interesting to see how virulent and he saysemitism is already leveled against the kind of the jewish speculators of the great jewish speculator of that that era in germany. Where there is this idea of you know, theyre just speculating their their their you know, accumulating stocks and their accumulating controlling interests in in companies, you know across across the board of the business spectrum from from industry to to to textiles to battery to weapons. But these these the same accusations, you know, which you still see today leveled against george soros or the conspiracy theorists to you know, you dont see them levels against future quantum and Friedrich Flick being, you know, protestant parts of the german establishment. Now i want to go to to 1933 and and hit the seizing power in germany. Quickly codifying of antisemitic laws in in germany. You see quickly see domain. Well characters in my taking advantage of it. And interquant and gets briefly detained because at this point in time is his marriage to to magda qant is has dissolved and magdaquand has on to become markdock googles. She divorces a good requirement in 1929 and soon meets. Joseph gobbles. Whos then the right . Yeah, he likes propaganda lighter for for berlin and is you know up and coming in the den still bargaining nazi party and they soon become the you know to kind of the the most Prominent Third reich. And a custody battle ensues good your qantas to sons from his first marriage herbert and how much . And to and and has one son together with magda called. How cold how old . And it custody battle about how old ensues and he is arrested. Which she later prepared is on googles orders. Hes arrested on may 4th 1933 three days after greetric ones becomes a member of the nazi party. We spent six weeks in. In custody and then as soon as he gets out, and he first has to go into house arrest he starts firing. You know the the jewish members of a supervisory boards and executive boards, we start to removing them from from his from his company boards. And even though he says you know the bear he later prefers himself to be a victim of goggles and a victim of the nazi regime and as an opponent even though he becomes one of the third drugs largest profiteers and she you know take it quickly takes advantage of Business Partner partners that he had was a banker named jacob goldsmith. Which both heated rich flick and and winter quant did a lot of business with and was served on on their company boards. He is above quant and flick is swiftly removed from from his boards from that boards, and you know is forced to see nazi germany and that is again emblematic also of the thinking of these men day. They are not convinced antisemites, but they are they are willing to play along with the richie with with the nazi regime as long as it benefits their companies therefore tunes and you know, they will not do anything that goes against the rules by you know, going the extra mile. To save their jewish colleagues or employees from persecution now following the the implementation of the nuremberg race laws in the mid september 1935. Where of course a disenfranchisement of jewish citizens in nazi germany really ramps up you see this concept of area which later became known as arianization really enter into the discourse for german businessmen. And the conservarianization was this idea of the removal . Of of the jewish element from the ownership of an asset whether that was a jewish owned Company Shares jewelry art real estate. Thats where it starts and of course initially these transactions still have the veneer of a regular business transaction between i would say 1935 to 1937. But they very soon afterwards become the outright expropriation and appropriation by the nazi regime as well as the businessman. Im writing about. I mean i give countless examples in my book of arianization, but i will give several and the most prominent one i want to start with is the removal of out of rosenberger the cofounder of porsche of Divorce Company by his two or the buyout is the is the correct is the correct term of out of rosenberg by his two portion company cofounders. Anton pierre and very unposher they the three of them start the car Design Company in 1930. In in stuttgart and they you know on the day that that out of rosenberger resigns in january 1933 30 june 30th of january 1933 is also today that out of hitler sees his power in germany. He resigns frozen bagger because he is fed up. With being hes a commercial director of porsche and hes fed up with you know, being the financial backer of the force company, which is blowing through money on the expensive designs of ferd and abortion of mercurial guard designer and and which company you know, its Namesake Company out of rosemary 10 of the shares. He stays on out of rosenberger as a for shareholder until july 1935 when hes bought out. Of the portion company at the nominal value of a shares, which was 3,000 rice mark. Now at this point in time, very important has convinced has convinced hitler to put his design the volkswagen into production. While the portia company was virgin on bankruptcy of on january 30th 1933 by the time july 1935 comes around it is a very profitable company. However out of rosenberger is bought out for the nominal value of his shares and 3,000 guy smart which is far below the market value of his actual shares and that is again, and that is a stereotypical form of arianization the way these transactions were conducted. They wanted to remove. A peer and porsche wanted to remove and out of rosenberger as a shareholder which out of rosenberg later contents is because they wanted to have a classification as a company which was free of and you know out of rosenberger is is ready to leave germany. Actually, is then soon after he gets bought out of porsche. Detained in a concentration camp on the charge of racial defilement. And is helped by his successor as commercial director helps him to to be freed from the construction camp porsche mps. Dont do anything to help their cofounder out and later a whole legal battle ensues. And the other families in my book quant as well. Greater great greatly profits from from arianization. He acquires the companys of equal several Battery Companies owned by german far below the market value of of their shares every day flick actually becomes the largest profiteer of at least largest privately. Of the private businessman it becomes larger profiteer of arianization. It takes over the massive pet check brown core conglomerates in central, germany. In one for six Million Dollars also far below the market value of the shares of one branch of the pet check dynasty and the other one is outright expropriated by by the nazi regime and he and a ends up in a asset swap with those brown goal assets as well. Another the four family. I write about in the book. Its i was from think and i was from think right about both senior and junior they are is a cofounding financiers family of aliens and munich real. Um today two of the large two of the Worlds Largest insurers and reinsurers. And i was one thing senior. His father cofounded aliens in munichry his father dies when hes 25 and he inherits these, you know, the largest stakes in these Insurance Companies as well as a controlling stake in the in the Family Private families private bank mark fink. And hitler asked him in 1933 because hes you know as nazi officials call him. Bavarias wealthiest and and stingiest man. He asks him if one thing can fundraise as he refuses to spend any money of himself. On if you can fundraise for the house of german art, which is a which is hitlers pet project a new museum on the southern border of the of the english garden in munich. And from being readily says yes and is is happy to to and ends up fundraising 20 million high smart from his fellow tycoons and and financiers for the building of affordability of that museum which today is still very prominent building in in munich and as a thank you for his successful fundraising efforts. Von fink is rewarded reward it by area by being allowed to arianize the rothschild bank, which is the austrian brands, which is austrias Largest Private Bank and the Austrian Branch of the rothschilds family, and hes also allowed to arianize in berlin the dry fruits bank branch. And he does so he first does so by the museum of his in 1937. And he uses also, you know the code of the the laws of nazi germany in a way also of attacking. Not only of arianizing these private banks which you know expands his Business Empire significantly. But also by attacking his his fellow private bankers. Which was greatly dominated by you know, there were a lot of bad private banks at the time owned by many who had been around for generations. He uses it. He utilizes the entire antisemitism in variative in vigorously attacking fellow private bankers, and so successfully that you know his attacks and then his subsequent erinizations. Cause a kind of a bank run on on other jewish private banks and it is, you know, it becomes conforms kind of the blueprint. Ive already as i called it. Dejueification of germanys private of the german Private Banking system and i was from think becomes large profiteer in nancy germany of Private Banking are organizations. The last example i want to provide of the families that i write about is the utica kazolovsky family richard haselowski is the ceo of dr. Edgar a large baking goods conglomerates. Who steps on who is mentoring his stepson rid of our researcher . To take over a ceo of the dr. Utskar putting empire. This is mainly a europeanbased conglomerate still today very well known for its frozen pizzas, and its putting mixes. And he just because a love ski is actually one of the few men who is like an ideological national socialist. He is really convinced. Hes a convinced that see the other examples that i gave of the other industrialist and financiers. Are for the most part . Yeah, our opportunists who . You know leverage and disemitism and and and and the laws of nazi germany to their business advantage. Whereas future carsolovski is such a convinced National Search that he actually its through the detriment of dr. Edgars business because they own for instance. They own not only a big goods company, but also own a Publishing Company and they merge a or on kazolovskis instigation. They merge a a very highly profitable newspaper that they have with a nazi publication. It is bleeding. Money and his steps are good of august urger who ends up voluntarily applying and joining the buffon ss at one point. He goes to hamburg. Hes eighties 21 years old in 1937, and he acquires the house of a of a jewish executive who had to to australia. And its actually the only time in the book where somebody where casalovski warns his step his stepson. Who he mentors he says. Be be aware the to this house steer stick to this house. I mean in the book. And it is it is quite confounding that the only kind of sense of remorse or a sense of forewarning. In the context of an arianization, i found was of somebody who was an ideological nazi. He wasnt so much again. He wasnt he was also a latent. Yeah. He used the word late and i antisemitage. He was not a racial antisemite kazelowski also had many jewish Business Partners who of course, hes swiftly got ties with following 1933. Um, but it is the only interest i came across during my research and that of the one ideological nazi where he warns his stepson of what he is about to do with the organization that you know of the moral implications that there are of course his stepson a bit of our researcher. We became one of germanys most prominent most war industries. Structures of and and buys the house of the flood. Tobacco executive far under market value of his shares. So these are really the book of the examples in the organization period i want to move over to the to the postwar period where frederick flick stands on trial in 1947. In the nuremberg trial that is led by its a subsequent nuremberg trials. Course you have the main number of trial where 24 of nazi germanys most high profile politicians and military leaders were indicted and convicted. But theres but under the american purview you have 12 subsequent trials and deflect trial is one of them freely flick is indicted and convicted on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity. And the trial is led by the prosecutor general whose name is Telford Taylor and he writes or sorry. He says in his Opening Statement. The defendants will tell you that they were not antisemitic and even protected individual against the nazis. It was not beneath them to appear in public with and pay a kings ransom to himler the assessed leader angry himmler who all but rendered the of extinct in europe. They fattened on the misfortunes of well features. Etc, etc, and pretty flick in his defense says well. Im actually a exactly what what telfer taylor says in his. In his Opening Statement pretty flint uses the defense. Well, actually i was a protector of all even though he was the largest profit year of arianizations in in the third rug says i protected and the jewish businessman whos was companies, i acquired and you know in order not to have the suspicion for on me. I sometimes also met, you a casual antisemitic remark. And during the erionizations in many of the memos you find some you find some of his very offhand antisemitic remarks, and he said i did that in order to not be too suspicious in not to have these suspicious suspicion land on me. That you know, i was a supporter of of the which of course is completely inverted reality and perversion of reality. I want to give two more examples. I want to go to the late 97 east in which very porsche the son of farnham portia and the man who receives out of rosenberger shares after his father and his brotherinlaw by by causenberger out of the Porsche Company in 1935. In 1976 ferry porsche designed the first porsche sports car was also a voluntary assess officer voluntarily applied to the assassin 38. Entered the ss or was admitted to the assess in 1941 and ends up. And surrounding himself with high ranking formats as officers at the portia company. Of course then Global Sports icon in the 1950s and 60s. In 1967 in his first out of biography, which solely published in the United States by doubleday at the time. Its called we at porsche. For the porsche Sports Company the American Market is the most important market. He has no trouble at all spewing virulent antisemitic virtual about out of rosenberger. Who who he accused of extorting him and his father and his brotherinlaw and the portia company after the war ends and rosenberg tries to get compensated for being bought out of the portia company for animal market value of a shares. So and he writes the following. I want to read that part as well. Almost a decade after rosenbergs death very published his first ought to beography. We had portia in it the sports car designer. Not only twisted the truth of rosenbergers organization and escape from nazi germany, but also did the same with the stories of other german were forced to sell their firms and flee hitters regime. Very even accused rosenberger of extortion after the war whats more the form has officer used blatant and semitic stereotypes and prejudice . In his work to god after the war it seemed as those people who have been persecuted by the nazis considered a their right to make an additional profit even in cases where they had already been compensated. Rosenberger was by no means and isolated example, very rights very known as mid60s supply an example of a jewish family who had voluntarily sold their factory after leaving nazi germany for mussolinis italy only to return after the war and claim payment the second time at least according to his interpretation of events. Very continued it would be hard to blame the rosenberger for thinking in the like manner. He no doubt felt that since he was jewish and had been forced out of germany by the nazis who had done so much harm. He wasnt entitled to an extra prophet. So that latent antisemitism that and this is quite explicit. That i refer to earlier at to those patriarchs and those those industrialists in the primary public in nazi germany this thinking for many continued unabated in the postwar era in the and in in west germany, you know without any without any season. I mean the fact that fairy porsche felt so confident to write this down in english in a you know, very publicly in his very publicly published first out of biography goes to show how common and widespread this, you know, casual use of antisemitic remark, you know. Yeah, he dare to put it in in such a you know public in his first out of a geography which was First Published in english and only later two years later four years later published in german. But to give given indication of that thinking today. I wanted to conclude on by by giving the example of hours from things c is junior, who is the son of august from think a senior i was hoping union died this november it november 2021 in london at the age of 91. He became after his father died one of germanys most. Secretive and most successful investors and somebody who can who started funding german conservative right wing and ultimately far right causes. And he and he did that. Over three three decade period starting in the 1990s and ending or at least to what it has been coming down to the public ending in the late odds around 2017 and there is a he worked together his right hand man and aaron schoonute style was kind of his money man. And the man who would be serve as a conduit between i was trying to think juniors political spending and and the nteu antiuro libertarian a conservative or free market liberal causes would donate to and at one point there is a lunch and this happens in may of 2017 in munich. There is a lunch in it happens in munich. Theres a lunch that andrew style has with a publisher. Hes trying to recruit a publisher for a new rightwing publication or faride publication in germany, and he says reportedly at at that meeting he says theres danger ahead. Dont think junior from one thing juniors newton and said it to me. Theres a street in new york with lots of Investment Bankers lawyers and so forth coincidentally their old , but thats not relevant here. They want to boost germany into room. They control everything. Says answered style during a may 2017 meeting in lunch meeting in munich. To give you an example of how you know, this is a prominent businessman and hes the right hand man to one of germanys wealthiest and most prolific political spenders over the past couple of decades. To give you just one indication of unfortunately how prevalent is thinking and saying still is so i would like to conclude it on that note. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. Okay, uhhuh. Thank you so much david, and theres really i think a lot um to dig into here and i urge everybody to please submit questions again, excuse me, using the q a function at the bottom of your screen and i will filter them to david, but i have a lot of questions of my own. So, um, first of all if you could just start by saying, what was your most kind of surprising discovery doing this research, i imagine, you know as you make clear, you know, some of this was known already at least in in certain ways, but some wasnt so like what to you was your your biggest fine. I think actually out of rosenberger storyline, which i added latest to the treated book. It was actually my partner. Pointed out to me a documentary that that was broadcast on German Television in summer of 2019. Which brings up . The the defected out of rosenberg was completely erased from from portia Company History and the fact that you know porsche such a global icon such a global brand had a jewish cofounder, who knows not only you know bought out far below democratic market value of his shares, but it was also just completely erased from Company History and it actually turned out to meet it was the the Biggest Surprise at on a on kind of on a micro level of stories but i think on a macro level and a Bigger Picture i think in it also was the reason why i wrote started writing a book in the first place was to was the fact how you know, brazen the whitewashing today still is by Companies Like porsche and bmw where they have all these, you know global foundations in the name of of out of a part of a very porsche and and herbert quand we say bmw from 1959 celebrating their business successes, but leaving out. You know. Any part of their of the war crimes they committed or the nazi affiliations that they had and you know after these families and his companies prepared to have reckoned with their third rank with their with their the nazi era histories and activities and and i think that especially in this day and age when i got this idea back in for the book back in 2014. And it you know, it didnt change. He knows eight years. I mean they had eight years to come clean about it, but you know, i you know, luckily for me they didnt because you know, i could you know, i thought every day is like i thought every day it was going to be i was going to be like theyre going to yeah. Yes exactly. Were gonna get scoop. Im gonna get front run on this news, right . Um, okay. So, um, you know, as i was reading the book i cant i had a running dialogue with myself like well, which are the worst, you know, like there are yeah, i kept kind of going back and forth question clearly. Theyre kind of varying degrees of guilt, but im wondering if you had a thought about which one you thought was the worst. Well, i do think the quan or at least the two quant siblings that today could well you are you talking about the patriarchs or the like the entire familys or yeah both. Yeah. I mean in terms of patriarchs, i think that i cant really distinguish. I think there are they were all equally. Mmhmm awful in a sense, but i do think that those families today that control the families like the quans or the bmw sit or the siblings that control bmw today. The concept is a control vmw today as well as the the porsche beer clan and a portion more to an extent that control porsche but not only porsche but also folks wagon audi bentley etc. And that have these outward facing foundations and Corporate Headquarters and even media prices named after these men without being transparent. I think they are the most blatant in in the coverup of the history. Mmhmm. And i think also because they control such Global Brands and and have such global outward facing companies. They also have a bigger responsibility to be transparent about history. They might so a question from the audience. Um, could you say a little bit about what conditions were like in some of the factories that had to work as slave laborers in this very much different. I mean and there were also there were also i mean for the most part. Jewish or slave labor done by by who were kept in concentration camps for their you know for their for purp who were not sent to extermination cancer, right . Because thats thats the distinguished were talking about here at this point, you know, they were kept in second sub concentration camps where they were that we deported from concentration camps to the factory complexes at folks of argan or at a good quant and herbert wants battery factories and you know, they were kept in the most. Of you know, there were i know at quans half a factory outside of hanover. There was a gallows, you know, there were abusive couples who beat prisoners sometimes to death and i mean it ranged i mean there were the on on the lowest bottom of the rung were the jewish slave neighbors and followed by by mainly slavic force and slave laborers millions were already boarded from poland, ukraine, russia and and beloveus and other Eastern European countries, and you know western europeans for the most part were comparatively treated much better. I mean, yeah, which yeah wasnt even you know, thats very bad. But yeah, yes, so okay another question. Um, can you give examples of big german firms or individuals that refused to collaborate with the nazi routine regime so did did you know i imagine some refused maybe to actively profit from arianization, but can you give exam any positive examples here you have you have you theres the example of global bush was industrial very well known industrialism is the company they left be in bosch, which is owned by foundation not owned by family anymore. The company left behind you know is still one of one of the world so hes a massive industrial apartment as a massive electro technical conglomerate today. And he was a very progressive industrialist really to care of the Labor Conditions for his for his employees already going back to the to the kaiser guy and obama republic. And he was very much antihitler. And he but even he even he and he support through his right hand man founded the resistance to the extent. He could i mean he died in 1942 to robin bush did and he you know, but even he massproduced weapons for the third rack and used for used and forced labor was used in his in his company in his company, so and he would say hes one of the you know, positive examples, i mean you know, thats the most positive example i can give across the board forced and to less extent slave labor was used. By by german business, no and arianizations you know ionizations occurred. You know, this was a business decision, right . It was a cabinet so it occurred only if they made sense. You these businessmen didnt make arunization acquisition if it didnt make sense for their business expansion. So these were all these were all business deliberations that they made. Does this acid make sense . Can we get it for the right price because were called calculating decisions, you know, so so for instance congrat mass conglomerates who didnt do any organizations, it doesnt mean that you know that that says something about that. They were any better than than good. Youre quantity flick who did it was just that it didnt make sense. Such acquisitions didnt make sense in your overall. I mean, you know m a in there in their you know. Okay, im feeling a little bit better about my dishwasher but a little bit worse about my coffee maker now so so question about what the allies did to push for punishment of these, you know firms or wealthy germans after the war was there any effort of the occupying allied, you know in as part of the d notification process . I mean it starts with initially it starts with the morgantop land robert morgant of junior was a treasury secretary proposes the morgan top plan which basically called for the entire dismantling of germans industry and the summarily execution not just a political and and miser leaders, but also a Business Leaders that plan is scrapped and instead you have this plan. That is mainly drawn up by John Jay Mccoy and of stinson in the in the War Department who you know also. You know if you can talk about the and i said semitism of of german big business, but of course it was right and in the American State Department and and board department, too and they come up with this plan which envisions the nuremberg trials. Overseas the occupation and the and the dividing of an occupied germany between the United States and the united kingdom. And also to oversees the as they called it, which is part of the four ds. The notification was one of them but so was de cardinalization and deconstration of german industry which in the end does not really it doesnt really happen to learn that. You know, its only he gave farm and its a very prominent example of at the time the largest. A chemicals and pharmaceuticals come conglomerate in the world is split up in what is today basf and buyers still to a Large Companies in the world and in pharmaceuticals and chemicals respectively. But for the most part, of course the cold war emerges and and you know initially harry truman and then like i was an hour, but particularly truman makes the policy decision that we that that United States government needs a viable democratic or economically viable and democratic west germany as a board against an encroaching soviet union and all the aspirations and ambitions that they had for the reform of German Society and and andy thats a vacation a little quickly goes out to window and their aimed the overarching aim becomes the buildup of of west german and society as a democratic and a capitalist state. Yeah. And yeah, so, um, some people are asking, you know, you really focus on kind of heavy industry. I would say in in the book, but you know, you clearly could have talked about, you know, some people with someone raised the question of like the entertainment business, um, you know, and i and that there were kind of similar stories going on in all different aspects of you know, all different areas of the german economy. Good. Is that true . Would you say or well this i mean i picked a big the families a bigger business families of those that are still most relevant today in european in german european and go business. So that it could have you know, i think in a sense. Businesses that i chose and i think thats why youre also emblematic or so exemplary of the larger Wider Business Community and their thoughts is because they they do range. I mean sure gundry flick big industry. But one would say, you know, portia bf car car and then then of course. The front fingers in is in is in finance, and he occurs are in consumer goods at that time. Yeah, right. So it does it does give the two main characters are indeed in having industry. But i wanted to focus on those families that are relevant today. So what regardless of what industries they were in at the time of the nazi era. Yeah, and you know the your opening kind of scene where these these rich germans are summoned to a meeting with hitler is incredibly chilling where like you want, you know, theres a lot. You know, how are they gonna react and they, you know are more than willing to help finance. Yes. So here a bunch of people have you know, put forward a really interesting question that i had to which is you know, you end the book on a maybe hopeful note saying, you know, we will do better right but i a lot of people are asking what that would look like. So what do you hope your book accomplishes . What what kind of reckoning you hoping for . Oh at the bare minimum is is this and thats also the idea i went into i mean the book is an argument in favor of historical transparency, and i think minimum these families should be with the massive Consumer Brands that they control should be outwardly transparent about the the histories. Of the advantage patriarchs that they call their foundations and Global Headquarters and brands and and media prices after i mean, i think it is a bare minim that we can expect and if they dont want to do that then you know, i think they should they should they should rename they should they should rename, you know, that is what a reckoning that is. What an honest and transparent reckoning. Looks like to me. Because i also think you know one learns from history by showing the good. And to bed and if you just celebrate somebodys business success, but leave out their war crimes, especially today when we live in an age of such, you know disinformation all across the board, you know, you these families particularly have a responsibility not only to the consumers but also to history, you know because bearing about it and you know, you cite i forget which one it was but like the young woman now who just recently gave a speech that where shes yes, please. Yeah, its not even like theyre trying to hide it anymore and shes almost like, you know, like the past. What does it matter . Im rich. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know what i traveling which is very troubling indication or germanys had it. Yeah, you spoke after golf, but you know, i mean kind of late and lack of any historical knowledge. Yeah and and kind of any sense of morality that were gonna bows and displayed not only during that speech but all particularly in the followup comments that she gave build to build the journey to food company like they have a thousand thousands very famous. Yeah, but dont some shaming and kind of boycotting it seemed like after her speech. So theres sure and i said, i i end the book all the way in the back in the notes of sources where she gives us interview in september 2021 to the zoo delighted side to about how you know, she forced now forces her family to talk about it and therefore shes forcing him to be more transparent about it, but its still difficult. Yeah. I mean i do i am i mean you get back to the previous question. You know, i am hopeful about my generation even though some show, you know. A bladen lack of knowledge about about that period but you know, particularly those german and particularly those who are end up being the heirs. Yeah, because i do think in the four and a half years that i lived in germany, and i i know that any in the in the up at 2, and yes, i do in New York Times is that i everybody is is extremely aware and and is extremely reflective. And is is trying to to make a better german, you know, and of course with its political and economic might you know. Is extremely important . Yeah, i mean one of the kind of fascinating things is you describe that many of these families have hired historians to uncover the truth about their past, but somehow these histories wind up almost seeming like part of the coverup and in some ways in their kind of and eventually in some cases on in most cases completely unintentionally and some you know intense. Yeah. I mean you said theyre actually kind of good historians often, but then the book comes out and they think theyve done everything they need to do and then nobody, you know stories and their research. I mean, its also insulting to these stories and our researchers work on these projects for three four years, and then you studies come out and they are only published in dens academic german and then, you know, nothing changes. Findings, you can find anywhere except like a 1200 page study in dense academic german and then it also begs the question who done exactly is this reckoning with right . Because for the most part the germans of course were not the the the victims of the crimes of these patriarchs of the in their businesses, right . So, but but you know surviving forces laborers and their errors never get any access to these details. Yeah, so so very much backs the question, you know, and then you know when when when a company or a family then doesnt do anything, you know just goes to show that they dont to me doesnt go it goes showed it. Its not an honest and transparent reckoning today. Theyve initiate so your book is about to come out in german also, which is um, you know fascinating. So what do you imagine the reaction is going to be youre gonna do a whole, um, you know book tour there you said, um, yeah, like have you gotten any advance sense of what . No, no, i havent no. No, i mean the book is gonna come out the german translation is going to come out may 5th. I mean the two translators and the editor and myself worked extremely hard. On the german translation to be the best version it. I mean, you know, the english language version is also great. Okay, even better version of that one. And and you know really worked on a day and night particularly in general december january and early march. And you know, i i got a sense actually the man who inspired me to write the book or gave me the idea for the book as a german journalist who wrote biographies on the quans and the edgars. And he actually its anime a id send him a yeah an advanced copy of the book and you say i woke up to this morning with a note from in that he said he rather than one go and he said i learned a lot and its really well red, and were really well told and etc. So thats i mean in a way hes my most important critic since he inspired me to write a book back in 2012 2013 or gave me the idea that i should write about this topic in a way not explicitly but but through the interviews i had with him at the time and i got the idea and you know in a way hes my most important critic so it affected he improved of of it already goes show. Im almost already very happy. Yeah, thats fantastic. Okay, well were out of time, but i want to say thank you so much for sharing your your research and telling us about this really important chapter in history. Want to thank everyone in the audience for coming i want to urge you. All to please sign up to be on the ypsa mailing list. This is our last talk for this year, but well have many important lectures next year too and please join me in thanking david dion for that great presentation today. Thank you maury it was my pleasure. Its really nice