Transcripts For CSPAN2 Booknotes 20131221

Why did you call your new book the girls in the balcony . The balcony is a wise about any of the National Press club. The institution until just 20 years ago. And win in 1955 the men decided that they would let anyone into cover to report on events, they put it in a very narrow, extremely uncomfortable about any at the far end of the ball room. Guest but just 20 years ago i was standing this that balcony. We could not ask questions, we were not allowed. It was, um, it was frustrating. And so one of the three women in the New York Times bureau told Scotty Rustin one day that she would not go there anymore and two other women, myself and Eileen Shanahan who covered finance and high economics, said that we wouldnt cover assignments there. Its very difficult, you know, because the newspaper business used to be kind of like the army. You were given an assignment, and you went on that assignment, and you did not discuss it, and you did not argue against it. And scotty could hardly believe that we were doing this. I mean, to me, the balcony at the National Press club was the metaphor for this book, and it certainly was the ugliest symbol of discrimination that i knew of in all journalism. Cspan did you ever ask any peal why they wouldnt let women in . Why they wouldnt let them sit downstairs . Guest of course we did. I mean, there were constant complaints from the womens National Press club. That went over years, and finally they made the balcony decision. And we said, but were not allowed to cover the story properly. We cant hear the speakers properly. We cant, we cant ask questions. Were not equal still. And their attitude was that women were a disruptive, would be a disruptive part of the National Press club, that wed make men feel uncomfortable in the bar, that we might ask stupid questions. Its so hard to, um, to remember how recent that kind of of attitude was. Its better but not good enough. Cspan why did you write this book . Guest i wrote it because the story had never been told before, because every major book ever written about the New York Times almost ignores the women who contributed to it. Such books as mike bergers authorized history of the times in 1951, the compulsively readable the kingdom and the power which came out in this 69, harrison salisburys without fear of favor, david halverstans the powers that be, i mean, women are we were invisible. And weve added a great deal to this newspaper. And i thought i would like to tell their story. I would like to tell how a group of very brave women pushed the times into the 20th century, made it live up to its own ideals and its public image of being a humane, liberal, progressive, lecturing newspaper, lecturing the nation in its editorials about how white men would have to give up the power, how of course they felt uncomfortable with the minorities and the women pushing for equal rights and equal pay. And at the same time, this Great Institution which i loved was fighting the womens suit tooth and nail. And historically has not been welcoming to women until very recently. Um, a great story. Its full of hair wynns heroines, not many heroes. Very few villains, however. I think it has a lot to do with ignorance, insensitivity and the fact that nobody who has power and is part of the status quo will move or voluntarily give away any of that power without being pushed. I really believe in organization. Cspan you write about a lot of people who are still alive guest yes. Cspan still at the times. Guest yes. Cspan current publisher, past publisher. Anybody mad at you for this book . Guest not that ive heard from. I mean, its very funny, i dont think im going to get royalties from the New York Times staff because they all asked for advance galleys of this book, and it was being passed around, i mean, people disappearing to the mens room and reading it. And the feedback has been wonderful. All of the seven plaintiffs have read it and called me to say how much they loved the book and how accurate it was. Cspan seven plaintiffs guest in is sexual Discrimination Suit against the New York Times which was settled in the late 70s. The lawyer for the women called me. I heard a wonderful story about young arthur also burger. Can i also do salzburger. Can i tell it . Cspan sure. Guest he is the only son and heir of the publisher from 1963 until january of this year. Several weeks before ponce stepped aside, and young arthur became the new publisher of the times in january of this year. He was at a bar mitzvah for one of the innumerable sort of salzburger clan, and also there was harriet rabb who had been the attorney pressing the womens class action suit. Um, so harriet found herself at lunch seated next to young arthur, and she said with some trepidation my name is harriet rabb, and arturs face lit up, and he grabbed her, and he said, harriet, have you read nans week . Isnt it fabulous . I loved it. Young arthur is a feminist, and hes been pushing to close the gap between the salaries of men and women doing the same job, which is country wide and society wide and industry wide. Hes really doing things. Hes really a devoted feminist, and i have high hopes for him. The fact that he he does come off well in the book. Hes promised a lot. He has acted. He has followed through this trying to shrink the in trying to shrink the salary gap and has shrunk it. For instance, he told me when i was interviewing him that the salary gap between men and women on the New York Times on the editorial side was averaging 13,000 a year. And on the business side, it was averaging 25,000 a year. Hes now narrowed the gap to zero for new hires on the editorial side and to about 7,000 a year on the, on the business side. And this is a big move. I mean, punch is an aim mall amiable, decent, wonderful guy, but he never leaned on his managers saying this p counts on your record, not just putting out a quality product, lets really do something about women and minorities. He never really pushed. He said this is a very good idea and then didnt follow through. Cspan did the New York Times review your book . Guest its going to review it next sunday. Cspan do you have any idea what the reviews going to say . Guest of course. [laughter] cspan is it written by a man guest its written by a woman, i think, although its difficult to tell by the name. It sounds like a womans name, and its favorable. Cspan does that surprise you . Guest in a sense it does because i knew, a, that they would have to review it, and the times is big enough to review it. I thought that the person i knew that the person who reviewed it whether male or tale, um female, um, might think that if they wrote a favorable review about a shadowed series of episodes in the times history, they might think if they wrote a good review, that they would never be able to write for the times again. Many outsiders think of the times as a monolith instead of a newspaper with thousands of diverse personalities in it. I mean, there are a thousand people on the news staff, there are 6,000 employees altogether. And we do not act and think as one. But i, you know, outsiders speak of the New York Times as if we were all alike within it, which is not true. Cspan current editor max frankel. Guest yes. Cspan how do you think he likes this book . Guest he has been asked by many people within the times and outside what he thinks of the book, and he has replied that he has not read it. I dont know if max is speaking the truth, i dont know if he has read it and feels that it would be less controversial if he did not comment upon it. Max is a friend. I mean, i am hard on max. Cspan you call him, say his style with women is ponderously gallant. Of. Guest i think thats a very accurate description. Cspan what does that mean . Guest max is rather ponderous. He is not light and gay of heart. I have known max since we were both in our 20s or early 30s, and even then i used to tease him by calling him the young fogie. Hes very earnest. Hes a very decent guy. The times is full of decent men. But somehow its almost as if max and i were very close together in age. Im 65, hes about 61 or 62 now. Its almost as if max and i are in a different generation. I was moved and exhilarated and propelled into action by the Womens Movement that rose in the early 70s, and max, i think there are many things about women that he does not seem to understand. However, the interesting thing about max is he keeps putting his foot in his mouth in public, and yet his private performance at the times is quite good. He has moved more women into sort of middle management jobs than any other executive editor before him. And i say that in the book. Hes managed to offend women by some comments hes made for publication. In one case he offended both blacks and women by saying that women had reached a Critical Mass at the New York Times and so it was no big deal to fire them. Not that theyd be fired at the times, its a union paper. But what he meant was really that you could treat them as you now might treat a black baseball player. I mean, you could scold them, you could chew them out, but that with the blacks at the paper you had to at least them very delicately because they had not reached a Critical Mass. And he managed to offend both women and blacks by making that statement. And yet he is actively hiring minorities, particularly hispanics and blacks which are a very big part of the new york city population. Theyre not doing as well with women. Theyre sort of concentrating on the minorities now. New hires of women are about 18 now in the pep tore yall rep to have yall field, and that is considering were half of the worlds population, thats not too good. Cspan whered you grow up . Guest i grew up in chicago. Cspan how guest newspaper town at that time. Cspan whered you go to school . Guest northwestern. Cspan journalism . Guest yes. Cspan then where . Guest i went to europe. I sailed for europe in 1948 about a week after i graduated from college. I had a few words of french, i had a French Family that i was going to stay with that i found through the alliance francaise. And being young and stupid and full of hope, i sailed away to europe and began my career there. I was too young to be frightened, you know . And i spent the last seven the first seven years of my career in europe, in paris, berlin, frankfurt and london sort of learning my trade. Cspan when did you go to work for the New York Times . Guest i went to work for the New York Times full time as a staffer in 1955. January 19, 1955. And i had spent seven years doing general assignment reporting and feature writing for other newspapers, and i was a stringer on womens news for the times for about a year before i came back to new york. I was in london. And there i was with all that general experience behind me, and i was immediately sent to the womens page to cover fashion. Because thats where women went in those days. Cspan there are all kinds of crazy Little Things that you learn when you read this book. I mean, crazy maybe not to the audience [laughter] but for those of us guest not for the women. Cspan be let me tell you what im talking about. You married a man named stan levy. Guest thats correct. Cspan and his son is bob levey . Guest thats correct. Cspan thats what i mean by things you learn in this book. Guest yes. Cspan you married stan levy when . Guest in 1961. Cspan where did he work . Guest at the New York Times in the city rule. He was a labor reporter. Thats where we fell in love. Bob levy fell in love with his wifetobe. The family tradition. Cspan what was the turnercatledge rule . Guest the turnercatledge rule was that no wife of a times man could be hired as long as that man was on the staff. And that was true for many years. Flora lewis, one of the most dazzling Foreign Correspondents in the history of the times and for a long time the writer of the Foreign Affairs column who was my boss in paris beginning in 1973 as long, i mean, heres this woman with just years and years and years of marvelous reporting behind her for many, many newspapers and syndicates. As long as she was married to sydney grewson on the staff of the times, she was not hired by the times. And she was separated from sidney when the women of the times, 50 women of the times wrote a letter and signed it to the publisher saying this organization is hypocritical and unfair, there is a salary gap, there are no women in positions of power, there are all kinds of subjects they cant cover such as sports or business and finance, justice, economics. Anyhow, just a sort of damning manifesto from the women signed by myself among the 50 women, and this is 1972. And flora believes to this day, as i do, that they hired her very hastily. She was not yet divorced from sidney, but she was separated. And she was hired about, on the staff about two weeks after the publisher received the letter. She is convinced that if the womens caucus had not been formed, she would not have gotten that job so quickly. That they were able to say, aha, according to her, you know, we have a woman bureau chief now in paris, one of the prime bureaus. Flora was the first woman bureau chief in the history of the times. And six months later i followed her to paris, by then speaking french fluently, and there was a storm within the management about sending a second woman to paris. I cannot imagine a storm occurring in any corporation about sending a second man to join the head of the agency in paris or anywhere. Cspan were you one of the leaders . Guest yes. Ive always been a troublemaker. [laughter] um, i was called a sort of inveterate cspan whos Abe Rosenthal . Guest the executive editor, the most controversial ask one of the and one of the best in many ways. Executive editors of the times. Cspan where is he today . Guest he is writing a column called on my mind on the oped page of the New York Times. Cspan so if people want to catch up with all these names andering guest i know, its a lot of sponge no, its not your fault, but a lot of them are in the times. Guest oh, yes. Abe is still rug his column. Turner catledge is dead, he died in 1971. But there are a lot of people alive. In this book, men and women. Cspan i should ask you before we go any farther for those who live far away from here and may never read the times, whats all the big deal about the New York Times . Guest the New York Times is not only the most respected newspaper in the world, one with a liberalprogressive image, it is a great corporation, it is an institution, it is a cult. The readers of the times are a cult in the way the readers of no other newspaper that i know of are, perhaps the times of london at one time had a readership like that. Its a Great Institution. And the women who sued it for equal treatment, for equal respect and equal salaries and equal hiring and promotion loved the newspaper. I loved the newspaper. I had a great career on it. They wanted to make the newspaper live up to its ideals, to its public image, to make it better. Um, we werent bitter, we just wanted to be equal. Cspan what makes it so great . Guest i remember once when i was in Journalism School at northwestern standing up in class, at that point the New York Herald tribune was my favorite hoop and the Chicago Daily news, and they were writers, newspapers. And i found the times to be very ponderous and very dull by comparison. So i sit up in a journalism writing class, and i said, um, what has the New York Times got besides accuracy and complete News Coverage . And the class burst into a storm of derisive laughter because thats a pretty fundamental series of things to have. It has Great Respect for tact and for history for fact and for history. It has wonderful people on it, men and women. One of the things that was the most fun about writing this book was that i got total cooperation from everybody, from punch salzburger, then the publisher, on down. From men, from women. They all knew that i was a pell nist, and it was very funny when i would come up to the times at first when i was starting my research and id just retired, and people would say so what are you doing, nan . I said im writing a book, and they said what are you writing about . And id say im writing about the women of the times. And theyd go, oh. I mean, they knew that the thrust of the book would be a feminist thrust because that is my history within the times. I was shop steward, i was very prounion, i was an activist. I was going to say Abe Rosenthal called me a toner which is sort of yiddish for a mover and shaker and person who shakes things up. Im always sort of up to no good. And they knew all of this, and yet every one of them cooperated. Nobody said no, nobody got dicey or inaccessible to me. Punch salzburger measured the table in the boardroom, that immensely long table which is two feet, six inches longer than the cabinet table in the white house thats so overwhelming to all of us when we first confronted management, we women, across that table. People were looking up also appointment books old appointment books, old tapes, transcripts of meetings. They knew what the thrust of book would be, and they knew that it would be proWomens Movement, but they also knew that it would be written by a good reporter. And one that is fair. I think im fair. Cspan howd you win your pulitzer rise . Guest i won my Pulitzer Prize, um, by writing about toxic shock syndrome. I had an almost fatal attack of toxic shock syndrome this 1981 in 1981. As a result of this, the circulatory collapse and the gangrene that followed, all the end joints of my fingers were amputated, and i almost lost my right leg and the toes of my left foot, and i was deeply poisoned throughout my body. But it was then a very mysterious disease, and doctors were misdiagnose nosing it. They were misdiagnose nosing it as scarlet fever, as influenza, as food poisoning, has some symptoms that are analogous to those afflictions. And i wrote, for the first time in my life i wrote a piece with i in it. I had never used the personal proto noun before, but i had to do it because that was the vehicle that carried the medical information that saved lives. I mean, women and men who had it or were part of a family in which there was a victim could recognize it right away. If its very serious, itll kill you within 2448 hours. Doctors were writing in that they had been able to diagnose it for the first time, so this was both a personal ordeal that i went through, but it was also, again, like the women at the times, it was a great story. Cspan what year . Guest it was, i wrote the story was published in 1982. My fingers were very raw from a series of amputations, and it was extremely painful the type except that that was therapy because it toughens the skin of the fingers the way going barefoot toughens the soles of your feet. So it was very painful to write. It saved a lot of lives. It was a personal story which always sort of people identify more with that than they do, they do a sort of cosmic theme. Ive always felt that. Thats why i wrote in this book about something that i really knew, that id been a close observer of or a participant in the events described here. And because its a microcosm of what happens in the entire society. Not just the big corporations, not just the New York Times. In any event, i wrote this piece, it was a cover piece in september 1982 in the times magazine. I got 2,000 letters, half of them from men. Even though it was known then as primarily a womens disease and a disease striking women who were wearing tampons, because thats a perfect culture for the bacterium that causes it. The letters were, god bless the readers of the New York Times, intelligent, moving, we were nettic empathetic, i mean, paraplegics were writing me thanking me for writing this. Total this piece. Total strangers, of course, were writing in. It was one of the biggest reactions to any piece thats ever been, um, published by the times, and six months later it won the Pulitzer Prize for feature writing. Cspan quos whats a little bitty thing like you doing run winning the pulitzer rise . Who said that . Guest Clifton Daniel. Cspan did that make you mad . Guest yes. Cspan why . Guest because he was cspan who is he, by the way . Guest Clifton Daniel was the managing editor of the New York Times, a former Foreign Correspondent, a husband of margaret truman, a very suave, extremely sophisticated and seductive man who was my mentor, one of my mentors along with Abe Rosenthal and so on at the New York Times. And he, you know, if Clifton Daniel who said this to me several weeks after, very closely after my winning the Pulitzer Prize passed by my desk and hugged and kissed me, then made the statement whats a little bitty thing like you, etc. And before the Womens Movement, i would have sort of dip l dimpled and blushed and said, oh, shucks, it was really nothing. But i felt he was being patronizing. I had suffered through an enormous ordeal and had shown a good deal of courage in overcoming it in my therapy because for a long time people didnt think id ever take notes again or ever writing again or ever type or ever walk, and this was the piece that won the pulitzer. And it was i got through a personal ordeal to win this pulitzer. And he was demeaning me, and i let him have it. And a few years previously i would have been, i wouldnt have stuck up for myself. And i really shamed clifton, whom i like enormously and who has been mentor to many talented women and, as a matter of fact, comes off rather well in the book, i think. He understands women, he likes women. Um, in the case of that quote, i didnt feel i felt demeaned. So i let him have it. Cspan this is really out of sync with what were talking about, but i wanted to ask you about when i read it. I underlined and starred it. Its on page 53 because i guess i was just surprised. Adolf pronounce his last name correctly. Guest ochs. Cspan isnt there another name in the history thats pronounced oaks or oats . Guest yes. Theres a branch of the family that is known as oaks, and theres another branch known as ochs. Johnny was the editor of the editorial page for a long time. His branch of the family changed their names because the ochs were german jews, and during world war i there was a tremendously fanatic outpouring against people with german names. And so one branch of the family changed their name to oaks. Cspan okay. And adolf ochs was an owner. Guest he was the great founding father, patriarch of the family that still owns it and publisher of the New York Times from 1896 when he bought it to 1935 when he died. Cspan okay, that helps. Ochs avoided paying a far greater inheritance tax to the government. President franklin d. Roosevelt described it as a, quote a dirty jewish trick, unquote. Guest uhhuh. Cspan Franklin Roosevelt talk like that . Guest yes. Its in the record. Cspan more than once . Guest yes. Ah, that i dont know. But, of course, there have been all kinds of books written in recent years about how roosevelt for a very long time ignored what was happening to the jews this germany in germany, did not take it seriously. This has been amply documented over and over again that he is simply didnt seem to feel that it was important. Of course, we did not realize the full scope of the holocaust million after the war was over until after the war was over. Cspan whered you get that quote though . Is that something new you found somewhere . Guest its probably in something i read. It probably is harrison calz burys salisburys book, but ive written every single book ever written about the New York Times. I think its been in print, and i think its probably harrison salisburys 1980 book. Cspan this is also out of sync, but when you read about people you know about it, it makes it interesting. Cy hersh, who was he . Guest he is on a par with bob woodward and carl bernstein. Cspan got a quote in the book that he said something to a woman by the name of leslie bennett. Who is she . Guest leslie had just been hired as a reporter for the New York Times. Shed come in from the philadelphia bulletin after many years as a reporter if philadelphia. Cspan cy hirsh wrote the my lie massacre story. Guest not for the times, he was working if for an independent. Cspan he said you know perfectly well you never would have been hired if it hadnt been for the womens suit, dont you . Guest uhhuh. Leslie bennetts was hired in 1978. It is ahazing the number of l talented women who were hired in 1978 which was the year that the lawsuit against the times for sex discrimination was settled in favor of the women who had brought the suit. Theres a whole class of 1978, i found out. And immediately thereafter. The times began hiring more women reporters particularly because theyre more visible because of their bylines, began hiring her women as soon as we confronted the management, we being the womens caucus, the newlyformed womens caucus. I mean, i was sent to paris, flora lewis was sent out as bureau chief, but they still were being brought in at significantly less pay, and there werent that many of them. I mean, gad, there were about three to five in the city room when i first viewed it. I mean, anywhere no women copy readers, when i came in in 1955. I was sent to the womens page, and i came down to the city room five years later in 1959, there was still three to five women. I mean, i was the first new woman hired for the city room in five years. Cspan got to finish this part here. Guest im sorriment. Cspan no, no, its fine. Ive just got to finish it, you said i must be fair to him, i sat near to him for months in the Washington Bureau while he threatened and cajoled his sources over the phone, and i am here here to say he was frequently and brutally rude to both sexes. Guest thats right. Thats one of the reasons why hes a great reporter, because he scares people into giving him information. Mike wallace operates on the same principle. I must say here in all hon is city honesty cy and i are friends. He is a pussycat within, but hes a brutally rude man. Cspan does rudeness work in this business . Guest it can. I think it grows out of personality. I mean, i, i think people i think interviewing grows out of personality. I never threatened or bullied people. I listened to them. Cspan but wait, let me do that because im not to the point. Guest okay. Cspan the interruption factor. I just interrupted you on purpose. You talk about the interruption factor of men. Guest yes. Cspan what is that . Guest its whats happening to the women who are in higher positions today on the New York Times. Those are heads of departments, heads of sections. They are not listened to in managerial meetings. They are ridden over. They are interrupted. The men do not listen to what it is theyre saying. I have been present at some of these meetings, and it used to be that there werent any women at these managerial meetings. Well, now there are, thank god. But its almost as if theyre not taken seriously. Remember in broadcasting . Women were not supposed to be serious, their voices were higher, they didnt use sports analogies. They were not taken seriously. They were fluffballs, you know . They were barbie dolls. And this is true to a certain extent today. Cspan is that interruption factor, is that something you all invented, or is that a well known thing about men . Guest i dont know if its a well known thing, but its a phrase that women in this managerial positions at the New York Times use to me. And i think like the term the Glass Ceiling against women, against which women have been bumping their heads, that the interruption factor probably is used by other women. They really and if they interrupt and if they are assertive, they are seen as try department or a strident or aggressive rather than assertive. Men do this at meetings, you know if they assert themselves. I tell you, brian, its a tough row to hoe here. [laughter] cspan theres another name, i want to read you another thing here. Theres another name thats fairly public right now you mentioned him, hes got a new book, but you mentioned the book on the New York Times. Guest yes. Which is a wonderful book. Cspan but in here you, again, picking up a quote, that was fitting since he virtually ignored the women of the paper with the notable exception of Charlotte Curtis and patricia riff, is that the way you proknowns it . Riffe . Clifton daniels secretary . Whose beauty he chose to comment as well as, quote, that nice hip motion that she has when she walks. Guest uhhuh. Cspan doesnt sound like hes one of your favorites from reading this. Guest i have always thought that gay is a male chauvinist. Again, a friend. We are civil to one another. But i sat right in front of gay in the city roomment we were of that same generation. And gay is a very macho, Southern Italian man. You know, when he had two daughters, i had the feeling he was going to sort of leave them out on the hillside like, you know, ancient sicilianos or something. Gay is one of those and never been comfortable around women. I know the this, you know . I did a little hes more comfortable in male company. Cspan theres a guest and he said that, and he wrote that. Cspan theres an awful lot we can talk about, and as you see, im jumping all over the place because i wanted you to explain these Little Things. You can read the book and get the whole story on the suit. Guest yes. Cspan other things, grand pa. Guest my grand pa . Cspan meant a lot to you. Guest he was the first man i ever loved. I was often remote from my father who was often away from home, he was a traveling salesman. And shortly after the crash my grandfather, my ma term grandfather and grandmother came to the robertson household to live. And my grandfather brought a very Large Library of classic books. The bulk of them were, the bulk of them was 19th century novelists, english, french, russian, american. And he made a bookworm out of me. And he was, i now know, the first man to treat me as an equal who was an adult. I heene, to treat ming i mean, to treat me like an adult, to talk to me about everything. To, he had complete respect for my views. I talked to him about everything from is there a god to sex. As i was growing up. He was a man of immense tolerance, and he was a very intellectual man. And i think people who read a lot and id been a big reader all my life because of my grandfather. I mean, the good push that he, you know, the push that he gave in the direction, i mean, i and i think people that read a lot respect writing, although they may not become writers. I certainly became a good speller because of that. You know . People who read a lot generally tend to be good spellers. But he was, he was an immense he was an immense intellectual influence in my life as well as being a man that i loved. And i tell a little bit about him in my book. I would like to honor my grandfather. Cspan you dedicate the book the brave women. Guest yes. Cspan how do you define a brave woman . [laughter] guest a woman who stands up for herself and what she believes in each though shes scared even though shes scared. I think a brave person is a person who goes ahead and does something thats frightening even though theyre frightened. I mean, every single woman, for instance, who was active in this lawsuit against the times was putting her career on the line. Particularly the seven named plaintiffs in this suit. And as a result of the suit, their careers were blighted, but they opened up they were pioneers. They opened up the way for other women. Cspan was your name on the suit . Is. Guest no. Cspan how come . Guest because i was a Foreign Correspondent in paris at the time that they were trying to get plaintiffs. If i had been asked, i would have said yes. I would have been scared to death, but i would have said yes. I was in paris in 1974 when they were deciding and when the suit was finally filed after fruitless negotiation with management. And i would have been a plaintiff. I would have been honored to be asked. And i did have a background of activism as a union shop steward, and, um, its just partly my life that taught me to be an activist. Cspan womens caucus in the New York Times and the lawsuit, would you say, by the way, what happened with the lawsuit . Guest the lawsuit was settled on october 6, 1978, on the day it was due to go to trial in favor of the women. Cspan this is a little bit of tangential question, but there was a strike in new york guest yes. Cspan newspaper strike. So most of this wasnt covered by newspapers . Guest thats right. I mean, there was a print blackout in new york for three months. It was the second longest citywide newspaper strike in new york history. And all of the drama the final weeks of the womens suit against the times unrolled in darkness and silence. There were only alternative newspapers with very low circulations, out of town newspapers, local tv and radio shows. Also as you probably well know, the press and broadcasting does not cover itself very well. Does not write about itself very well. I think its a pity was its always telling because its always telling people what to do and then does not turn the search light on itself. Thats why i think the rise of ombudsmen, in other words, people who really monitor the newspaper and listen to the readers complaints and listen to whats going on inside a newspaper are a very good thing indeed. We have a media reporter, but on the whole not encouraged to cover the times this that sort of in that sort of negative way. However, in 1991 when there was a mutiny, an unprecedented mutiny within the times over the coverage of the palm beach rape accuser in the William Kennedy smith case, the times covered itself, covered the storm of protest from the readers for, a, giving her name without her consent and, b, treating her in a profile as if she had deserved this, as if she were some kind of slut as somebody put it. The times staffers rose up as they never have before, men and women, to call the management to account. And max frankel was quoted, other people were quoted. I mean, it was in the New York Times that something quite negative had happened there and that the staff was reacting against it by saying that the times was not living up to its own journalistic standards. I got a tape of that meeting from one of my many friends in the times, and Time Magazine said there were boos and hisses at the meeting. It wasnt like that at all. What rose up off that tape was chagrin and, again, love for the newspaper, wish for it to be, be the best that it could be. And then the feeling of disappointment that it had really fallen down in this its standards. It had become sort of like a tabloid in that regard. I was very proud of the staff. Cspan you go back, and again, you talk a lot about max frankel, the current editor. Guest yes. Cspan and you quote rebecca sinkler, sunday book review editor, commenting i think were lucky to have max frankel because hes so completely politically incorrect. The mans well intentioned but antidelouvre yang. Hes not hypocritical enough to mind his mouth, he shows us what really is on mens mind. Guest uhhuh. Do you understand that quote . [laughter] cspan sure. I also want to ask you about this one though. This is mr. Frankel being quoted. He says, what i meant was i was manager of this wonderful organization, cant afford to have women fail without having a political crisis on my hands. I do aim for 50 50 men and women on the staff. Fortunately enough, women have already succeeded in high places here so that we can also have them fail. What i was doing was revealing my own state of mind, this is quoting max frankel. When branch ricky recruited jackie robinson, he said he had to be better than anybody else. Max frankel said his mother used to say youre a jew, youve got to be better than anybody else. Now major black players are repeatedly scolded and kicked out. Why would somebody say, max, youre a jew, youve got to be better than anybody else . Guest because jews couldnt be doctors for the longest time in america, couldnt go to law school, have been used throughout history as scapegoats. They are disproportionately and admirably represented in the United States as Civic Leaders and as intellectual leaders, and it creates a lot of resentment as assimilated as they are. Max frankel came from germany. Remember that. And he realized he was a germanspeaking boy when he came to new york city, and he has been struggling all of his life. Um, it might account for his ponderousness and his seriousness that he has had to struggle, and his mother knew full well that he was a member of a minority historically discriminated against and despised and that he had to be better than other people to achieve the same goals. And many women feel that. And were not even a minority. Cspan did you ever wonder, i mean, when i read this, i read all these hangups people have where they are, jewish, catholic and all that, is it working . Guest i dont understand your question. Cspan the human being. I mean, this is you or tray the New York Times as a great liberal institution. It sounds like to me theyve got, i mean, this is full of people with all kinds of, you know guest publicly, its a great liberal institution. Cspan ah. Guest privately, bep hind the scenes behind the scenes while theyre lecturing the country in their editorials about, you know, things cant be managed by white males alone, youve got give the women a chance, youve got to give the minorities a chance. While they were saying this in print, this truly great newspaper and its lawyers were fighting the womens suit tooth and nail behind the scenes. It was a hypocritical attitude. Cspan started to ask you earlier, caucus and the suit. Guest yes. Cspan looking back on it, did both of them get what the Womens Movement at the New York Times wanted . Was it worth it . Would you recommend it to others if theyre caught in this a similar situation . Is. Guest you bet i would. Im a true believer in organizing to get what you want. Im a true believer that nobody is going to move whos already in power or give any power away voluntarily unless they are nudged and pushed and people stand up for themselves. I really believe that. You know, its not enough to have your own brilliant career. Thats your own brilliant career. But who have you helped . Thats why Charlotte Curtis, see, womens editor for a long time, and louise huxtable, the architecture critic both of whom were of enormous talent and distinction why it disappointed me they didnt sort of join the womens suit, didnt sign the letter to the publisher, the first manifesto. Because they were really focused on their own careers. However, Charlotte Curtis at the very end, who was, had become well aware of the interruption factor when she went on to the masthead as an associate editor, Charlotte Curtis, um, at the end said the charges against, the charges that the women have brought are generally true. This is before the settlement. And she also told ann a that quinlan who is now on the Anna Quindlen who is now on the oped page of the times as a columnist that they will only give you the male management as much power as they wish you to have. Anna, by the way, is a very, very powerful and wonderful feminist voice on the oped page of the times. Cspan this woman here, harriet rabb guest yes. Cspan in reading the book, again, all kinds of connections. Her husband, her husbands father and all that, her relationship to this city and all that, just tell us a little bit about harriet and what was, what were the problems for background . Guest harriet rabb cut her legal teeth with a very famous and to some people infamous law firm that defended almost every radical in the United States black or white during the 60s and early 70s. William kunsler is still very well known for taking on unpopular clients. That is where she learned her law, basically at the seat of the partner of kunsler. She had an fbi file, i mean, this thick. Her second husband, bruce, came from a staunchly republican family. Maxwell rabb, his father, was, i believe, reagans ambassador to italy, he was eisenhowers cabinet secretary. Staunchly republican family, and bruce was, bruce rabb was in the civil rights Liaison Office of richard nixon, again, a republican white house. And, um, his wife was considered by the fbi as a subversive. And she lost a number of jobs because she was, because of the kinds of meetings she was going to being a lawyer for one client or another. She became the lawyer of the womens caucus and the class action suit that represented all the women at the New York Times in every job. And she also was the best known, um, lawyer for the plaintiffs in the sense discrimination sex Discrimination Suits in the media during the early 70s; nbc, readers digest, i dont know whether those were her cases, but she had a lot of sex discrimination cases. Cspan you write that the judge, if i remember correctly a well known liberal judge guest yes. Cspan refused to hire her as a clerk. Guest he wanted to hire her as a clerk but the other judges, i think it was the court of appeals, said that she was subversive. And one of them said that a he would, he would lock his door against her or Something Like that. And the judge was forced to tell harriet with tears in his eyes that he could not hire her because he could not afford such dissension within the court. But he then got her a job with a sort of liberal law firm in washington for a very short period. He did want to hire her. Cspan but dont those judges operate solely unto themselves in. Guest there were other judges involved in this court. I think at least two others. Cspan court of appeals there are nine judges. Guest all right. Well, then it was the court of appeals because there were other judges involved, and at least two of them complained that they would not want her as a clerk of the court. And she would be not just one judge, but clerk of the court. Cspan very little time left. What will make you the happiest after this book makes its rounds . Guest i think im seeing it already, and that is that women are saying who have read this book, this is my story. And they are becoming, they are sort of sharing already in the fact that this has happened everywhere, and they want to get some sort of hope. Of its what happened to women during the Anita Hill Clarence thomas hearings. Women identified with anita hill to an enormous extent. Men became more sensitized. And the spectacle of these senators saying you mean Sexual Harassment actually takes place in the world of work . I mean, here are these men who are part of a boys club, the senate of the United States, acting as if this is something new. And i think anita hill gave courage and encouragement to a lot of women to sort of stand up for themselves and speak up. Cspan this is what the book looks like. The girls in the balcony women and men be women, men and the New York Times, but by nan robertson. Thank you very much for joining us. Guest thank you, brian. The redesigned book notes web site now features over 800 notable authors interviewed about their books. View the programs, see the transcripts and use the searchable database and find links to the authors blogs, facebook pages and twitter feeds. Booknotes. Org with a brand new look and feel. A Helpful Research tool and a great way to watch and enjoy the authors and their books. A few weeks left in 2013, many publications are putting out their yearend lists of notable weeks. Books. These titles were included in the New York Times 100 notable books of 2013. In book of ages, jill lepore chronicles the life of Benjamin Franklins youngest sister. Sheri fink investigates patient deaths at a new orleans hospital in the days following Hurricane Katrina in five days at memorial life and death in a stormravaged hospital. In catastrophe 1914, europe goes to war, military historian max hastings details the events that led to the onset of world war i. Journalist katy butler presents her thoughts on end of life care in knocking on heavens door the path to a better way of death. In days of fire bush and chain ty in the white house, peter baker with the New York Times recalls the working relationship between president bush and Vice President cheney. National book Award Winning author jesmyn ward recounts the deaths of five men in her life in, men we reaped. For links to various other publications 2013 notable book selections, visit booktvs web site, booktv. Org. What we know of the founders, you know, at core, the 30second version is the guys that were against the constitution were the religious conservatives of the day, the antifederalists who very much and they included Patrick Henry at the time although he came along eventually wanted to have religious tests for Office Holding and so torte. The founders were the cosmopolitans, and yet most of them were biblebelieving christians. Why did they take the approach they did . Come down where madison came down . Because they believed no faith, including their own, was beyond faction. So madisons prescription was, essentially, a multiplicity of sects. Thats sects. There have been important developments if the law over the last, you know, couple of decades in terms of government funding and religious institutions. And so i would say that there were some, there were some real issues to work through and to figure out the rules that oregon this area during the govern this area during the clinton years or the early clinton years were different, you know . Booktv is on location in washington, d. C. Joined by the under secretary of the smithsonian who has a new book out. S smith sonnians hit