By u. S. And nato troops, the taliban scattered around afghanistan, but they eventually regrouped in the now retaken large portions of the country. This is about 90 minutes. [inaudible conversations] good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this session at the carnegie endowment. The arrest this morning and im a study from the very beginning that this is the organization and ill say a few words about it. So what this session is about is the launching of his boat, the taliban revival violence and extremism on the pakistanafghanistan frontier. This is indeed a timely book appeared or indeed not so much a family book. I dont know because we arrive at the end of the cycle. This is the cycle of western intervention in afghanistan. This is not the end of the conflict. A musty flavor of propaganda, this is not like the most. So the end of 2001, a lot of people died in afghanistan and people from the region. All of that was made to eradicate. I know the focus these days in the country is mostly about the election and what is going wrong in this election. But what we see actually is a result of the television in both the south and east, where none of us can be surprised by the information at their places. The point is not whether we know whats going on a retry to know whats going on. We dont know everything. The question is whether it means almost 13 years of war in afghanistan, additional war in afghanistan has served no purpose. I mean, has italo been been eradicated . Perhaps not it is simply a different story. And to say with this book in many ways this about. How did we get to the situation we are in now . How did everybody in 2002 be more or less eradicated both of us essentially residual . How was it this movement has come up again . This is what the book by hassan abbas is about. Im happy to say this is an attempt to bring a plaintiff perspective on the way things are moved looking at different angles and the dimensional aspect of the book, which in my opinion is of interest. So this is something that is the very discussed about. Western policies again. Today we tend to say we believe the Mission Accomplished or so we like to believe. With the media and the decisionmaking so on and so forth. So for that matter, we are delighted today to invite the author hassan abbas. For most of you come in many of you that they say he is professor and chair of the department of regional and analytical studies at the college and International Security affairs here in washington d. C. He previously served at Columbia University and a senior ricer at the International Affair at the Kennedy School [inaudible] many of you remember his first book, pakistan raced into extremism. Some of those words come out will not stand between you and the speaker. Please come up and present your book. Thank you. Match. Thank you very much. It is a great privilege and honor to be here and to see many friends and to be able to find time. In the beginning i will also mention grare frederic is an old friend and his work has been taking many of us, writing says a source of inspiration for scholars of south asian studies. This is a newer organization, a think tank and one different thing about this organization is primarily at the pakistani americans are benefiting from the expertise and guidance of many scholars of south asian descent and they believe in making pakistan a progressive state and also building the u. S. Pakistan innovation. To thank you very much. I wish you best of luck in your endeavors. To first give you a gist of the main arguments of my boat. And also my recent visit, which is kind of a book to her. I landed in pakistan for the last 15 years, but also two years after it was taken away. I had an opportunity to speak in the lawenforcement agency. Its not that im just mentioning about iraq. The linkages between the palestinian and missed in militant or terrorist group is very, very interesting. They started coming up on the streets in iraq and the linkage with the Pakistani Taliban. I attack somewhat briefly about some of those linkages. First and foremost, i must add my background other than academic area in the United States come as great honor and privilege to serve as a Police Officer police chief in the tribal area in 1995 and 1997. One of the understanding which greatly helped me in conceiving the idea and also have some of the stories, and that these ideas. For that many anecdotes in the book. But what i want to begin with is i have lived in many major cities around the world. The pashtuns make up about 87 to 88 . I have not seen any of the book as hospitable. At the same time, i have found their orientation is religious. But they are not only very pragmatic, but i served in 1997, and it sine die taken over by the militants who are beheading and killing people on the streets. And i remember it a few years before. In the 1970s, this is late 1990s. But have it trained or have said so or whatever you smoke, if you want to do that. It changed and radicalized the phenomenon and this brings me to one of the major themes. But having seen them as hospitable and secular unconventional but one name. Any leaders in that sense were so close to the great indian leader could be used to call them frontier gandhi because of his secular ideas despite being a religious man. What was the biggest enigma for me having seen up close, they are producing 70 to 50 . So in search of the question, the United States and the western world. However, you find most folks in history arent even in the political arena. If theres a comparative political study, india of course and some of the other countries. You made find it difficult because this is the kind of the post9 11 transfers because that this security reasons, political reasons and focus on these two countries. But there is not enough academic , historical treatment of the subject. But if i want to talk more about pashtuns and i am pronouncing it differently. So that is another thing i intend to do. The Afghan Nation was built in the mid1700s. Very different ideals and different ethnic factors and tribalism in the creation of what we know today as afghanistan. Whereas in pakistan, it was course a product of the progressive movement. Theres about 15 most important pakistani political leaders. They were from very different ethnic backgrounds, all very, very secular. If you look at the 1940s, and they are looking for you to comprehend how the people who came up with cat of pakistan, how has the country onto a very different direction. That is a phenomenon i asked the question how the church had taken place. So that was just a begin and explain what we are looking at. There are five major factors i would like to mention my findings as well. First and foremost, the political need for us to understand the differing and how they were groomed in some ways. What was the genetics of these two organizations . Nynex i mean is today all class of the oligarch of totalitarian seemed to be quite open to negotiations. They have migrated quite a bit and are looking for opportunities. But maybe it is some of the other schools. But however, the oligarch of the taliban in how lost control of the incidences taken place in afghanistan today. This is a leadership which has links with criminal books, various thick terry brooks as well and those who really believes it was something they had to fire. That is what they have been groomed to do. That is what their tribal identity has led them to believe. That is what the historical narrative has embedded in their mindset. Those people who are still fighting ended my assessment are going to fight for one suspect of the taliban. They are trying to negotiate to bring into the mainstream. Trying to take control of the Insurgent Movement so they can erect it and bring it somewhat twisted metal. They have various other boats that operate from the Afghanistan Border and theres a major pakistani zero, not that later as well. I want to explain about this division between the oligarch and the new taliban. Coming to the pakistani television. A few more words. So for their financial needs have used al qaeda. However, in the case of the Pakistani Taliban, there was more that it taken place, the nature of the group and the publications, the media and they are very active on the media, on social media as well. The Pakistani Taliban and are far more dangerous and lethal in my understanding and the reason is they have moved far closer to al qaeda. In fact, many of their exploits, how we define and analyze al qaeda today are not able to explain the dynamics of the Pakistani Taliban. That is the kind of proximity that has taken place. This brings me to the point i was earlier referring to about iraq. There are videos on youtube as well. Some of the militants from their books landed in iraq and prince. They moved into iraq and they are now in my school, price of iraq and the language because they are the Pakistani Taliban operate in that area. They are not homogeneous in terms of the posh to an identity. They have a thick terry and groups and job be from different groups in pakistan who was infiltrated and join the ranks of the Pakistani Taliban and in a very thick fashion. The number in terms and all we need to see his sweet about the major terrorist attack on the karachi airport. Major attack destroying one of the most important aircraft they had. Their attack on the air force base. They successfully attacked a location where pakistan is i pakistan is their belief to catch some of its Nuclear Arsenals as the delivery system. So the point is in case of the Pakistani Taliban, there are linkages in terms of sound insight, in terms of some people who are radicalized enough. That is a much more delirious phenomenon. If i am a security analyst, i would spend much more time looking at the Pakistani Taliban. There were attempts made to engage Pakistani Taliban because at least part of the reason it became so reacted is because the only way the pakistanis connected with them and they smartly from their point of view boats out of the tribal area, which is a from the urban centers made it extremely difficult. So thats the kind of my analysis. Now coming to more an academic treatment in terms of how do we understand they stun any of the major theory of any of the major issues. The pakistan afghanistan problem, whether it is a broader Law Enforcement approach we need or bad education. I think all of those are ideas from a longterm perspective. But to be able to understand before we can attempt has to go through an analysis, which i have invented a narrow fivepoint satellite imaging. Before that, a couple of anecdotes which were partly introduced for the book and privately some of the other experiences i had. I remember the day when the pakistani Prime Minister was returning to pakistan and i was honored to have served with her for a brief time in 1995, 1996. In 2007, when she was returning and she mentioned your nonacademic peer once upon a time you were a Police Officer. What is your take on the security situation . Many other Security Officials in rent to focus on these issues almost had a consensus before this. I think you want me to be blunt and direct . She said absolutely. I said i think theres a very high likelihood that you will be assassinated. And instantaneously she said i know that. Tell me Something Else that i need to do a. I appreciate her courage and bravery. Not only because she talked about the taliban with the militants were Strong Enough because her assessment and i think she was not only absolutely right at that time, but that radicalization has happened in pakistan unfortunately is not only the militant camps. This has seeped into the society it is still a minority. It is still pakistan by and large. If you give them a chance they will vote for relatively politically Aggressive Party and the pashtuns birthday are in the card of pasha. But having said that, the discourse has changed in pakistan. Currently there is a debate going on and some educational institutions of why this train to group, why its a good idea. So that kind of discourse. There is a major attack with their hundreds of thousands of people and there is this major attack. That evening i was very passionate and i rose 17 with a local think tank. So i wrote who try to kill Benazir Bhutto and i made the case that the former previous head of the Pakistani Taliban and she immediately said, she wrote back of a memory. And she said that mr. Analysis . And i explained in detail in my work, which she said something to the effect, im paraphrasing, that these are the radical elements within the pakistani establishment. When we used the word pakistani establishment candidate security forces. There is intelligence and the military. They are all retired or serving other lands who are probably behind it. They had the opportunity to ask this question to the former isis chief. We were criticizing today allowed on this, with a strong critique tonight a great experience talking to him at length. They by the way it has gone off off ive been to the office of the Services Headquarters funded by the United States. Its beautiful. Youre sitting there and i asked him, i said they are something people often say. You ask any pakistanis and local books not in the bookstore, who killed Benazir Bhutto. That is the impression. So imagine to him, i say do you know why people in these situations also think . People weaver said theyd known it. Long table and by then he was very kind and he kind of almost jumped in the sea. I immediately realized i shouldve printed differently. But he said blame us for anything you want. Dont tell me and dont interfere. We knew what would have been. A fact later on in the same building i was told Mohammed Hamid karzai that there will be an assassination attempt on you today. The pakistani intelligence have the same theme. My view is intelligence from the handlers and exactly what benazir had said. Before coming in, deeds are the circles within circles if you want to understand the intelligence policy. There is a kind of thinking in pakistan, ive had many of them not by sudans and i have seen them as very bright, but almost 100 99 based on my three years, even pashtuns are convinced that the problem afghanistan is facing is because the taliban. Theyre absolutely convinced on this. The point i am referring to you here is these perceptions in pakistan is about intelligence or the role of military. The reality is hidden behind a facade. Some of that times may be true. So it requires a very delicate attempt to go into some of those i am extremely thankful theres an objective assessment. But this brings me to the theme of my book. With these themes in fact, i need more help to understand what has gone wrong in that region. How do we understand how this radicalization has taken place . Had we understand how the taliban was able to expand in such a fashion and conduct these kind of very advanced terrorist attacks. The first thing i taken a little bit into the economic domain. One of these regional tensions. What was happening in the region from outside the United States on the south side at times and internal affairs of the last 10 years, look at the issue in a way that is isolated to maybe the Pakistani Foreign policy. The reality is a large part of this is linked to a proxy war. Now you might be surprised to know that india, the security and televisions, many members, very important members, they had a general viewpoint that is extremely critical and i have seen that a very political view. So when i get an opportunity and how this support is taken place. There is a group based in pakistan and the tribal area from 2001 on words. Theres another very good book that has come out by the people who work there. I recommend you to read if youre interested. But it is one orientation, which for the Pakistani Military intelligence is always framed as totalitarian. I think thats how the security and media project to date by which means they were terrorists in their orientation. There were not political groups either way, but they would never attack afghanistan. There are some groups, which are framed as good taliban. Haqqani group is one of them. Why . They were great taliban also because they are pursuing some of the passion he entries because of the expansion of the infrastructure in afghanistan. Some right, some wrong. In the 1990s there was this ethnic war in pakistan was using for training kashmiri militants. They dont want that to happen again. They want to invest more in afghanistan by any historical reasons. It is based on the perspective. However, in the last 10 years to the Haqqani Group, the most interesting thing to me in my study is for the first many years during the war on terror, no one or maybe it was done at some level, no one in most meetings between head of the state in pakistan and the United States come in the issue of taliban never came out. Thats a very important issue for the americans to look into. The resurgence of taliban and why we just talked the taliban out of the force. They were operating. They were expanding. They were thinking and maybe they wouldve let it go. It is basically too effeminate and stop it in 2006 or 2007. However, in the context of the regional tensions, in recent interviews i am extremely thing full to the Pakistani Military officers, some of whom id be honored to have my stories in my official domain and this reminds me of something important, which i shouldve mentioned, to pick a name and all of that i have seen about this book to my job. But i heard in pakistan, this is not people who were working with me. I have realized that the Haqqani Group, there is no sympathy group. In one case, the pakistani general told me when i asked him, the only one who allowed me to mention his name and explain all of what happened in 2009. When i asked him, he said to me, we have lost hundreds and thousands of army officers. Any question me. He said do you think i can face a soldier if i tell him that the people are giving in the daytime to nighttime there have been a problem quite pleased that i would not be with not be of the face by soldiers. He said in 2009 p. Had no briefing whatsoever on which of the groups are to be saved in which are not to be safe. There is a difference between the military operations commanded and controlled by the Pakistani Military and the intelligence. It was not in coordination with our cooperation with the mainstream Pakistan Army. That is the point which gives us some insight into this issue. They are not only sympathetic, but friendly towards the Haqqani Group. There are many instances. This is a paramilitary force. He said to me, the general said to me that in many cases the Frontier Corps kept themselves hidden. They had specific information. So this pakistan and tendency, the first Pakistani Military unit that landed in 2004 learned for the first time he said when we landed and weve realized the mainstream pakistani province would respond to you. However in parts of the tribal area, people cannot speak in the Pakistani Military is an outside force. They had no one who could communicate with the people in that area. For many pashtuns and the area, it is much but army for the americans. In one case, for the Pakistani Military understood some of the terrorists. It was a time of the sunsets of the time of one of the five prayers that was performed, this terrorist stuff to the commanding officer. He said are you muslim clerics of course we are muslim. This is a Pakistan Army. He said i thought i was cited in the indian army. There are many such instances. Theres also a lack of preparation also. In many cases, we have not given any proper types. So now i cover in these two points. The first one was the regional tensions, et cetera, et cetera. It is a graveyard. Even forget about americans on the other side of the International Forces. It is a new word. The second differences to the the nexus between crime and terror, which is very difficult to understand. A word in the sense, all you need to do to be of Pakistani Taliban and get as much money as he can to kidnappings, et cetera of course longer than the one i do i need to do some reversals. The convict the green color are white or black and you are already a religious scholar and you can get the hots for and claim to be a religious person. And this is a new phenomenon in pakistan. We simply had the opportunity to travel between two major cities in pakistan. Right in the middle they have this indian movie and the person sitting next to him had his own tape recorder at which there was a recorded sermon, which was very bigoted and narrowminded. He could very clearly see that at least 15 of us, no one walked up to this person, including myself to say can be lowered her voice because window exactly what he was doing. It was his mission, but to listen to the proof ive seen in my lifetime and the last 15 years ago which is a little bit out of touch. But the pakistan i have left. I remember people would walk up to someone and challenge and that is the change that is happening in society in many of these criminal elements, we know may be a criminal will be attacked in challenge, but a person to be a religious priority will not be challenged or taken because they can come out and say you have committed blaspheme. You are out of islam. That phenomenon i think kaz taken root and which is something very, very important. It is also the major source of funding for Pakistani Taliban. Even in islamabad. 15 years ago but they are doing in islamabad, he said that Law Enforcement officers in islamabad were stolen from outside. This is the police chief of the city. It is a civilian commissioner and chief of police. It was 15, 20 years before that happened. He said we had no clue what it happened. So to expect the pakistani civilian frontier is capable of handling, this is an intense state of afghanistan. Even more intense. So in the guard of this terror, in the facade also are many criminal organizations operating with cuts force. The suits them in a big way. Same in afghanistan. I was told that the u. S. Forces realize that in one area from inside those schools and they got to know later on it is a member of a construction company. Everyone would say the taliban has done not. So im not trying to say the religious angle is not there and the terror phenomenon is a link to all these issues in a significant fashion. All different factors are the most important one is also at play in the big faction. In karachi, for example, they were able to unearth a training school, which is not a suicide im in school, in karachi this was made to teach you. That theme was Police Officer, who was killed in a major terrorist attack. That is a very, very critical issue for us to look at. The third one is the whole issue of the worst frontier state. The frontier state of coors was to have no international border. Weekly areas. Of course the United Nations also identified five. Not the frontier around that line. And they operate in a different fashion to be able to control. I used other teams because i want you to read my book and find out what the other teams are. I will just conclude my two ideas. My book was supposed to my students and readers understand the answers which are embedded there. But i have taken an attempt to say what nicu can resolve these issues. How can we set the whole thing right in terms of the rule of law and education, which is extremely longterm. There are critical things we have to do. This is what i have written a lot about if this investment and civilian lawenforcement structure, which is 60,000 security forces. The police in afghanistan is a military force. And thats been in police would have left the support of the civilian lawenforcement and his link to democracy. So you made it very clear choice whether to invest in giving the country when you make an investment in training a judge. In afghanistan it will work out. One of my students is still there and is brave enough in afghanistan i must mention her. She was the first one you told me about how great it is and she said im going back because many of them are now opting to become analyzed in afghanistan and in the last three years consecutively, last year for sure, among the top 15 students who pass through the training to become a judge, there were a big eight or nine of them. So im not going to say they are coming back in terms of revival. But that has to happen in a much more court made its faction. Investment in civilian lawenforcement. It is going to be much cheaper than the other projects we have conducted. I think the radicalization has taken place in afghanistan and pakistan. Without religious pluralism, the very sectarianism has seeped into the middle east. This is more of a muslim argument. But therein has become so divisive. It is one factor causing a lot of militancy and extremism. In my book, i explained to be amazed to see the opportunity to go to this one small place in the tribal area, which pictures the dynamic that was very different historically, very pluralistic, very open. I think it is the teachings of those in south asia who can provide a bridge for the shiites and sunnis are not the other groups to come together because you can treat religious radicalization. Thank you very much for your patience. [applause] thank you very much. [inaudible] with a serious temptation to stay in pakistan. I will push you to the first question, which is the connection, political connections could you explain at the very beginning. I also heard a completely different story to say while they have no connections whatsoever. This is probably a reality. So when we look at the region, we try to look at the consequences, when we look at what weve done, ill what can we say about this . What is your take on these questions because what is behind the whole idea of the stronger effect of exposing the risk and something of a localized conflict. But be second on the appearance of something larger. But at the same time i recognize that. So can you give us your take on this linkage and what its like. I think to begin with the idea of one taliban, which inspired the pakistanis to think about that groups such as taliban. So in terms of ideas, in terms of the very phenomenon and the dynamic, theres the taliban who came first and i was the difference between how they created the pakistani intelligence and how much of that was indigenous, which was also the case, but was primarily a phenomenon. Later on the pakistanis were inspired. In 2001 when the whole operation after the silent terrorist attack, the region began. At that time, the washington post, to find the word Pakistani Taliban. You will not find it. The first time was in 2007. They continue to operate like so many others as militants. If not an operational level, at least as an ideological level. The islamic context comes from the muslim sunnis sacked. It is so different that the source is still the name of the city. There is this empty activist in the red. Which know the indian part is not very progressive, that they are kind of middleoftheroad between extremism and militancy. But some of them in the posh pashtun areas are also inspired by the same anon anon. So the commonality between both taliban was inspirational. Secondly, in terms of that subset because that is the books they read. Thats the kind of geological framework they have. There were instances of where they went. Ill give you one example. There was one pakistani officer who actually go and meet the family who is known, who was briefing Pakistan Intelligence officer who trained and was seen as the godfather in special forces in north carolina. He played a very Important Role in jihads. He started wearing a big turban. He was sent a few years ago by the intelligence military to please go and talk to the Pakistani Taliban. They had good relations with pakistan. The oligarch, not the insurgents on the ground necessarily. So the Pakistani Military said today mom, we feature. Go and talk to the Pakistani Taliban and tell them we have evidence that they are getting funding from an es. So they had arranged that message because they were ordered to kill imam. Unfortunately come to his is on youtube. The Pakistani Taliban kept him for over year, and beheaded him and despite the best efforts, you think the Pakistani Military never saved one of their legends . And the joint chiefs of staff was kidnapped for the taliban. They would talk until the taliban, please go attacked to the Pakistani Taliban. The Pakistani Taliban never listen. But id say nicias uri. There are some differences. However, the military moved into the north area by the haqqanis. So in the face of it, maybe there is a disconnect in terms of operational issues. Because of the commonality and trademark, my view is if and when the u. S. Forces will go completely out of afghanistan. He was a coming together. The reason being, they always thought they can have some level of friendship with all of the taliban and they will come and fight. It was they were using the same area, similar logistics. People were jumping from one group to the other. So i agreed that sometime in the last two years, the Pakistani Taliban were convicted operating at different levels, but they are bound to come together come especially when the forces from that side will go away and the pakistani operation will finish because the religion inspiration and ecological framework will bring them together. Lets go to the audience. Im sure there are questions. Please introduce yourself. I am ralph hyder from washington d. C. Thank you for a very illuminating talk. It was. Lightning. My question is who is financing the taliban . Where is the money coming from . They are different answers. We have so many studies that a major chunk of the money is coming from opm. You hear different members of the International Forces name different people. If you talk to the british to get a different answer. The tragedy is from the American Perspective our whole campaign in afghanistan was haphazard, was very wellmeaning with all of the good intentions with your money and my money, but i think those who planned it, plan it in a defective fashion. They were never given a timeline. Said no one after the opium protection in afghanistan in an ice fashion. The small efforts here or there. The net result of the opium producers knew the only way they could succeed in function is to get to stand 20 or 30 to taliban. On the ground, they divide them between the oligarch in pakistan. The insurgents in afghanistan are getting a major chunk of their money from opm. I think theres no doubt. Secondly, theres the details, wikileaks or leaked information and i is some restriction to talk or not about appeared to briefly mention is that developed evidence that there was a lot of funding from the gulf area to this. There are many sources that this came out. You can go start a small mosque. I think is one of the few countries you need no license, no registration of any sort if you want to build a mosque or a the center of any sort. The point is this political economy of radicalization also gives funding to this phenomenon. So the problem of taliban is far more cities. I discussed this with the military to i must add has been very open to me what is doing this research and asked that same question because i was saying you were always going fanatic approach. No lawenforcement backing to cut financial links. They mentioned we have evidence. I said okay, i would like to take this on face value. Wheres the evidence . New york times, anyone says a lot about other sources. Weve never asked them to show evidence. Why does only pakistan asked to show involvement of involvement . Since i would like to know what is the nature of that evidence. They found indian money in some indian currency which again is not a very strong argument because anyone can keep any currency that you want. The point is whether right or wrong, long debate. Pakistani intelligence is generally i think, some of them i met, they think theres some funding from india for some of those militant groups. You can never be certain. In this case i have met many people who have actually been senior members of government, to discuss but in pakistan to get one of the answers, because the question is [inaudible] at of course as stunned as i was and is much that would like to argue, for us it is important to understand that there are people in pakistan, educated people, who are generally convinced whether it is denial, whether it is the version or whether it is genuine, i have no way to have that in. Will evidence in front of you. But there people who are convinced that there is some american intelligence agency, and the implication is very series. Those people would blame everything on outside forces and would not do anything which they can do. So thats what i mentioned. Thats not majority who think like that. The reality is, if i to guess i would say kidnappingforransom, bank robbing, those village linked the gulf and arab countries. Mark schneider, International Crisis group. As you know, thank you very much for the discussion and look forward to read the book. As you shared your view that strengthening civilian Law Enforcement within pakistan as well as afghanistan is fundamental. We also have seen the work thats begun, appreciate your assessment, through the kerrylugar burman funding for funding. Hasnt been enough . Oxazepam the right kinds of things . You didnt take it the next step to your rules law. When will we see the trend for moving under regular rule of law in pakistan under the constitution subsidy Law Enforcement will extend into that area . And find one area where i have some questions, you indicated a separation between isi and the Pakistan Army in terms of operations. As you know, the leadership of the isi comes out of the Army Structure and moves back into the army usually at some point. And id say most of our own assessments would be that they are not separate entities or separate policies, but, in fact, a single policy. The support for the Haqqani Group comes out of that single policy. One example might be, perhaps you can explain why we havent seen very much in the way of haqqani victims in the current drive and north waziristan. Thank you very much. First, action all the work the crisis group is doing and the work of savoy it dawned enforcement reform and reform of the Civil Service and your thesis, i think the group is done a great job in releasing those extensive academic, Solid Research based publication so thank you very much, as someone whose interests and south asian studies. I think thats a great idea, one of the best ideas. The last sentence in my book is that the best thing in my assessment that United States has done for pakistan, or in pakistan, in the last six decades is the reason for the most extensive extension of the fulbright program. The number of state department deserves full credit for the. It is taken a long time for the policy shift to taken place but it has taken place. It may take many years for us to see because the new generation of pakistanis cost is being produced in pakistan are i have some friends, state department sitting here, so it can reminded but i think it was already hundreds of graduates from fulbright have graduated and next coming couple of years. Pakistan is maybe the biggest but participant of the fulbright. However in case of police and Law Enforcement it has happened i think frankly quite late and not much that is being done. Because in like the military commander relationship or department of defense and other organizations, very clear demarcation of responsibility, full engagement of military of partner nation. When it comes to police, and the United States there is no Single Office which can coordinate any Law Enforcement partnership. State department, yes, at a low level. Very, very small level. I really hope there will be more funding to go toitis. Theres a history. To go to ins. This is make it which i want to write my next book. Partnerships as a new model for intervention. If we have to intervene in a failed state, what is the first things that you will do . Always support. The difference between the roads in karachi is, cross a certain limit, i get a ticket. In karachi or elsewhere you cannot do that. Everything comes down to Law Enforcement. And the rule of law. So thank you very much for those points and thank you for reminding me about that question. I should have mentioned one of my major findings also is in one of the reasons we can take a look at the situation is but expanding pakistan into the tribal areas. Partly autonomous. No police in the area. Unless you incorporate the tribal belt. Again they will continue to go back to hub of terrorism. On the last point on the differences between military and intelligence, its a difficult question. Interns, it is easy to see the rendition of pakistan mentioned military. I think now they are very well coordinated and theyre very well focused. This is not primarily in the book but what i found out recently is the clarity of thinking as regards to operation in north waziristan. In fact, when asked, and this is mentioned about the Haqqani Group, they said we will of course squeeze them, go after them. But what i heard yesterday, twitter, a leading politician said, i wish i could quote it exactly but he said something to the effect that the suicide bomb attack that happened yesterday, 45 people dead, that this was conducted by those people who have been pushed out of pakistan. Some of the people believe in constant security who believe that pakistan is an intentionally pushing out afghan the groups so they are in afghanistan and to go and create make the life of health. Others think they have done it and i recognize that there to push of haqqani, a group from the area. But unlike Pakistani Taliban were there helping euros coordinate drone strikes, theres once drone strike happened yesterday. My personal test guests, it is well directed record naked. Pakistan is going against Pakistani Taliban very strongly, at least theyre not directing them to a new century. Previously south, contacting an operation. Better for you to go. They could go into these areas. But not pakistan. My assessment the Haqqani Group is really pushed out. They are not killed, targeted again not provided in the country. Pakistani military i think is now, my interest in, is now a bit late in the game but they fully recognize the issue. It is very difficult to find out what the isi is thinking. I will not go into any. I really and honestly hope that isi has also realized this but i would like to believe that has taken place because youre right, i is i reports to the army chief but then the our lowlevel operators and then there are handlers and contractors come and i dont know what is the mindset there. But the military leadership i think is now pretty clear. I promise to be brief and after them. Sorry, im a professor and trained to give long answers. Im so grateful. This has been building up of many years. Thank you very much. And observation at the question. You mentioned the assassination. I think some of the questions would remain, some of the questions will continue to remain, to be debated. Who was behind president kennedys killing. Who killed bennett to bhutto Benazir Bhutto. You mentioned at the and pluralism and Law Enforcement, enhancement and enforcement. Sharif, he doubled the forces in punjab. My question to you is, based on your recommendation, based on pluralism and Law Enforcement, my question is, in most of the cases in pakistan the Prime Ministers became Prime Ministers to an accident. If you become the Prime Minister, or if you are asked to advise Prime Minister, pragmatically what is something specifically, three or four steps you will do to bring this kind of terrorism and instability to a close . Thank you very much. And you are right about the issues. The reason i would like pakistan to click invested in figure out who killed in the absence of a very clear answer, a continues to become more popular and then those who are behind killings continued to paint they continue to kill and get away with it. We have seen in the recent past many of the politicians were killed, actually of the Pashtun Party and that it, members in the peoples party. Many of the leaders to there was a wellknown member of the Parliament Come a christian leader who is a member of the parliament who is a member of the cabinet also was killed. We dont know who killed her. And the fact, the tragedy has come and i must say this, there was not a single mom that day when he was killed who was ready to stand and lead the prayers for him. Including the official paid imam who shouldve been fired. That imam was not far. That imam is still the official imam of a mosque. So there is that fear, but your point is very well taken. Raising the salaries only is one part of the problem. The real issue is transformation as institution in terms of focusing on forensics, in terms of investment in new technologies come in terms of theres a reason why in many modern states there are these cameras on the highways and other places because you can just after the event, those are not meant to stop terrorism. The modern policing concepts are not particularly focus on stopping terrorism. They are focused on an investigating terrorism and happens. Pakistan has not invested that any case. Dont take it personally, pakistan wants modern police station. You can put price on one, you build 30 modern police stations. So it is not only about some of them is about a policy choice. The last question i think most likely the best chance that i will have is to be able to maybe at some, advice pakistan to i love my academics. Theres no chance that i will ever become a Prime Minister. But if they get a chance to advise, i think first and foremost, i think most of my pakistani friends who serve, and i will coach him, very bright pakistani professor who is here on use scholarship a couple years ago, went back. He had mentioned working in the Premises Office that 50 of the problems can be resolved if you get an honest and an efficient and a competent Prime Minister. Because some of the things are very, very basic. For instance, the first and foremost will be looking out for corruption. And i can only happen if you can still a form of accountability. This cannot happen overnight but some of the things are very basic. A major case of corruption in the political arena. They go after them in a very strong fashion. That would be the first thing. The second thing will be what i mentioned of keeping pakistans identity intact. Whether a mosque or a church or hindu temple, they have nothing to do with it. This was in 1947 and he was not this one small intellectual was in some corner think about his know, most popular pakistan has produced the people of them. He was able to create a whole country. Is idea of pakistan, pakistan has been very far away from his ideas. I think those in power can do small things to which they can take pakistan back. Just review all the curricula and take out some of those words and some of the bigotry which is part and parcel of the textbook. Second thing would be after accountability would be education reforms. And 13 at the would be a larger issue which is a Peace Process in india. I am convinced and i think pakistans leadership is also convinced, you not be a will to get rid of pakistani militant groups or take away some of the radicalization and less they both come towards an amicable, sustainable Peace Process. There are signs of that. I think it is a Pakistani Security assumption which also has to be convinced. Not only the pakistanis political leadership. I think india will also to put a role to make such a transition happen. Without these thinkings i dont see a bright light for pakistan. I have two short questions for you. Number one is, the taliban and thank you for your excellent analysis of your presentation. I find it a bit paradoxical they have taken large territories, but their posture is significantly different what it was in 2001. And secondly, the elections were pretty well conducted and there was no disruption or activities from taliban. So i find it a little hard to believe. My second question is the military action. Its been in progress. Do you think its going to continue for long and what would be the longterm outcome of that . Do you see it possibly isolating Pakistani Taliban from the other taliban . Thank you very much. Youre absolutely right. We have a crisis but the crisis is different from what may be the taliban can conduct terrorist attacks and stop the whole election process. That tells a lot about the people. And also the some of the very good things that have happened, benefiting from the u. S. Effort like supporting warlords which i think were blended from a part of the United States but at the same time theres a new british flag going up in afghanistan and that is a new state in afghanistans future. I think they owe it to International Security and especially United States that funded the bill by and large. However, the case when there were 13,000 polling stations. Elections were not conducted in many polling stations because the taliban never allow that to happen. Today theres a picture, and old men with long white beards and the caps all sitting in a in the hospital with bandaged around defenders because all those who voted, their fingers were cut by taliban. You have to go into, i think it is in the newspaper these pictures. Afghan taliban tried their level best. Lovely the vote, they are joined in terms of joining together as guards at the future of afghanistan. Hope for afghanistan. They said there against elections. Theyre probably waiting, in this case a lot of work by the Afghan Police and intelligence as well as american intelligence. There was a lot of support with which kept some of the taliban away. I was talking to the one of the gentlemen who think research on this, saving the and im reminded that if you look at all the incidents, the number of attacks in afghanistan by taliban, yes, not as much of the the kind of attacks but we know what happened recently. Summit of attacks in recent days, but the overall, those effects of that decline. They were able to have a successful election. But we still have to see where all this goes. If this continues and credit should go to secretary kerry and others were able to bring telling them that they have to figure out how they will build a National Unity government. Because as this crisis continues, it could be days that you see taliban operating a very effective fashion, conducting more of that. Iran tell that are also going to continue to be a reality. Infrastructure is quite intact. In case of Pakistani Taliban the problem is much larger. I think theres a huge impact on pakistanis since may 2013. On the Progressive Political parties, so the Pakistan Taliban actually in some ways had a more devastating effect on pakistani politics that of Afghan Taliban. And for that as i mentioned theres no shortterm solution. We have time for one last question. Thank you for such an insightful speech. I am currently a visitor at carnegie. My first question, your recommendation on tradition as a solution for the radicalization. As much as i remembered there was a long discussion Building Pakistan and others and there were efforts to spread the tradition. Im not even sure what exactly are the concrete steps that states can take in terms of changing the outlook and the nomenclature. When you talk about the tradition and their dedicated efforts. Theres equal amount of resistance to that. Progressive society probably a sometimes a lot of other steps that should also mention in terms of education reform and all that stuff, how they were very dedicated efforts can create support. Second, to talk about Afghan Taliban in pakistan for quite some time. Im still wondering what exactly was the reaction of Afghan Taliban on pakistans decision to fight with the United States postnine 9 11 . Was there a sense of victory that was are strong because code of pakistan summit i would assume the reaction should have been, there shouldve been some sort of a position within them. And wouldnt that create a tension against the state of pakistan and . Both very good questions. The second question about taliban, if that be true, i mentioned that is one of the arguments in Chapter Three or four. You are right. This is obvious from the book, my years in the taliban come explains he was a close friend of pakistan but you can read that book and see the case he is for all things pakistan. Thats what also no doubt. But still we know for a fact from these studies that the majority of Afghan Taliban if it had moved to pakistan, like recently there was a mola who is killed who was killed most likely a thing by Afghan Taliban. They want them to come to the negotiating table. However, initial years of Afghan Taliban, that no other option but to come to pakistan from the point of you. In afghanistan they wouldve been killed in bombay. Pakistan give them space at least two i think, its my just an estimate without any empirical, direct source in this case but at the maybe around 100 Afghan Taliban leaders, around that number probably came to pakistan. Brought families and all our living there. At the time they talked to pakistan, went after them, stood by them. But despite that they saved him from being bombed in their capacity. I think it was a lot of manipulation. There was manipulation and summer compared to pakistan but thats why also whenever pakistan needed Afghan Taliban, the old cards helped, then it was cooperation et cetera responded by not coming out against Pakistan Taliban. Said question is a valid. The other question, and i will take a minute, but thats a very profound idea. Im not making a position that from outside we use islam as a tool or anything else. Im interested because there are sunnis, shia but one thing in common, the point in job or whether these are [inaudible] they all had some common ideas which was really, which was completed nonviolence, which was always honoring those giving them hope and also nonenforcement. You would be surprised, you would be amazed there are more hindus than blossoms. Why . Because they never forced anyone to convert. So thats what i say the idea and the number of people who still go, i dont want more investment more Political Support but i think the great mistakes provide a bridge to different muslim sex to come together. And not only break each other to the success of society offers pressure i think is respect for the other. Thats what in terms of ideas i support that but youre right, if anyone will try through Political Support, they will come and we know theyre going to state a tax in pakistan. Totally unprecedented in the history of south asia. Never ever before there was the attack. That has started happening because, why . Because of two reasons. One, bigoted people and the biggest difference, a part of bigotry. Those people know well that the challenge to the orthodoxy and the conservatism and narrowmindedness is embedded. Thats why theyre fearful that what if that gets support, political or from international . We have to be very, very careful and thank you for raising that point. Thank you very much, hassan. I would like to post all those who didnt get a chance at asked a question, unlike to thank us on for his presentation but i would also like to invite all of you to attend the session this coming monday where the ambassador was a special adviser. That will be this coming monday. To all of you, thank you very much for your presence this morning. [applause]