Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Book Of Matt 20140222

Thick, and it was said all women should develop skin like a rhino. She is decisive when you hear about things she said to the aid and the whitehouse Correspondent Dinner and used profanity to say she didnt want to think about the effect it would have. And there is law emotion in a way more politicians are careful hiding. We had an aid say she is not as calculated about political comeback. Which doesnt mean she is not seeking it, but isnt thinking about the right moment with the right person. Thanks for being here and thanks to our students from Iowa State University and mediacom communication for sponsoring the buses. You are watching booktv on cspan2. Here is our primetime lineup we wrap up at 10 p. M. Wi with after wards. Next it is argued that the kill of Matthew Shepherd was an antigay crime but a robbery gone wrong let me tell you how we came to be here tonight. As most of you are aware, sorry,igate got cold here. I was the assistant principal at the Junior High School and was in the Laramie School system for 30 years. And so, i saw a lot of stuff from my position. Here in november a friend of mine and i pal around and a friend said have you seen the new book on Matthew Shepherd and i am sure like you, that is old news. Why do we want to drag that up . And she said no, this, i think it is worthy of you reading it. So erma let me have the book and i didnt put it down for two days because i lived it. I dont know want to change anythi anything, and had the opportunity to look at it through another persons eyes, i told steven i would like to have written this book. One of the nice things about my job is probably 99 of the kids that went through the Junior High School came back and you know, we are on, i mean, i dont want to say were buds but they will tell me anything and we laugh about it. And i have had a number of them coming back and you know, we would talk about stuff like drugs, alcohol use and stuff that was going on at the Junior High School and in the community. I know a number of them in the drug culture that came back and said that was not what it seems to me. It is one of those things as a laramie boy, i went to school here, my seventh grade here, we are talking 1959, my first class was the 19601961 shaclass. Laramie born and raised here. And when i read this book, you know, it started a burning that i need to do more about this. And i actually was living in loveland and i am trying to find the right property to buy in laramie to get back. I was up here working with gary, one of my friends here, and we were looking at property that we are working on, and i got a call from my wife saying, steven, who wrote the book is going to be doing a reading in fort collins. I said good bye and made it down for in time for steve to come out and do his reading. As i sat there, you know, in that audience, and just reliving it again, by the way, some of you, i dont know if you remember diane smith, who was a prep i stand corrected, thank you. I went up and introduced myself to steven and said i would like to spend more time talking with you about this. Why are you not doing this in laramie . And he said i have not been invited. So i said, hey, consider yourself invited. I will try to get us together and i guess where i am with this is that i am not wanting you or telling you what to think, i am asking you to read the book and once you read the book, make up your own mind. See what the reason is. And by no means are we trying to, you know, these young people that committed this, you know, i dont know want to change anything there. It was a tragedy. But dont we want to deal with the truth . And that was the way i was looking at it. So over the course of the last 23 months we put thigs this together and there have been a number of me doing it. I want this to be education number one. And i want it to be informative because there is a lot to be learned here. If you have questions like i did, we welcome and want your input. So no further ado here, i am going to turn it over to ray hagan and he was a radio announcer and doing a lot of stuff in there. So i am going to give it to you from the perspective. I remember the morning after the attack, and there was a series i would not say a series, but a couple other people who had been murdered so you were getting used to vis visiting the folks at the Albany Court House. What struck me as insane and there is a chapter in the book called wild fire about how the narrative of this incident quickly went wild. And the way the media descended on the town and judged the citizens. A lot of people saw the stories, shook their head and said that is not this town. And just an andote from that. We were sitting in the courthouse and it was early on. I was sitting next to a couple Network Reporters and they were talking back and forth and talking about what the next thing in the process was going to be. And what do you think is going to happen . And this is what i think is going to happen. And this went on back and forth and an hour later i went back to the station to put together a newscast and we had a television on. And one of the reporters was doing live standup and said sources inside the Albany Court House that the next move in this process is going to be and he started relating the story he was talking to with the other fellow. And technically the story was correct. There was a source inside the alba Albany Court House, but you have to fill time in the 24hour news. And i want to ask why does the media refuse to let go of a narrative once they have established it. It was an interesting frontrow seat, i guess, if you will, to see how the process works. I will read from the book jacket about steve here. And when this book came out, i sought initial press reports on the internet and ran over to barnes and noble to pick it up and they had not unpacked it from the boxes. The lady didnt recognize the book and i asked her to poke look it up. He said i think we have it in the becoackroom. So went and found it for me. He is an Award Winning journalist writer and producer. He was a nonfiction norman maylar fellow. He was written news for abc news, 20 20, novembera, fox court tv and others. His accolades include the western guild of american award let me put my eyes on here the award for investigative reporting, an emmy and fellowships at the Cross Association in wyoming. Taught screen writing at New York University and other colleges. He lives in new york and sante fe. Thanks for coming out and visiting us. [ applause ] thank you. Good evening. And it is really a pleasure to be here in laramie again because i just went on a very long and wild journey that i never expected would happen. But what i would like to do first is i will read a couple short readings from the book but first i would like to tell you how i came to the story first. Obviously when this crime happened, i was horrified by everyone around the country about the brutality and the horrible violence committed. But it wasnt at the time of the crime i decided to come to laramie. It was at the time principle perp perpetrator was arrested. I read the statement from shephers father when he was convicted and he was barring his sole and shepherd probes his sole and said things like why wasnt i better father and friend to matt and how will i get the answer now . The record was under seal by the court for years. And not just witnesses but principles involved in the case people that worked in the courthouse. People that worked with defense lawyers and Law Enforcement. I was very interested in going to that Public Record that i came here to write the story of the antihate crime as it had been presented by the National Media. I am a gay man and ive been out since the 70s and it seemed to me that this was an important story to look at an fulllength form. So i know those of you with me are familiar with what that merit and narrative was that the time. I can say eventually i went through some changes in my thinking about the case but i just want to refresh our collective memory here about how this was reported initially. From the very first reports at the up october 6, 1998 attack major news organizations provided a generally uniform account of the crime and the motives behind it, a sampling of newspaper and magazine stories painted a harrowing picture. This is first from the boston globe. Shepard, 22 a firstyear student at the university of wyoming paid dearly allegedly for trusting to strangers enough at the fireside lounge to tell them he is gay. What followed was an atrocity that forced the stun community of laramie to painfully confront the festering evil of antigay hatred as the nation and its lawmakers watched. This is the denver post. Police investigators turned up the following sequence of alleged events, sometime tuesday night shepard met henderson and mckinney while at the fireside bar and lounge. Shepard told them he was gay. They invited him to leave with them. All three of them got into mckinneys fathers pickup in the attack again. Newsweek. Hungry for cash, perhaps riled by shepherds trust in the admission that he was gay they drove to the edge of town police say pistol whipped him until his skull collapsed and then left him like a fallen scarecrow or savior to the bottom of the crosshatched fence. That was newsweek. This is the Washington Post. Albany county sheriff gary polls who suggested the beating was being investigated as a hate crime said the investigation is aggressively continuing. Larry Laramie Police commander she told the Associated Press that wild robbery was the main motive shepherd was targeted because he was gay. This is time magazine. What people mean when they say Matthew Shepards murder was a lynching was that he was killed to make a point so he was stretched along a wyoming fence not just as a dying young man but as a signpost. When push comes to shove it says this is what we have in mind for. Finally the New York Times. While some gay leaders saw crucifixion imagery in mr. Shepards death others saw a different symbolism. The old west practice of nailing a dead coyote to a ranch fence as a warning to future intruders. So that was kind of i began the book there and that i think is pretty true to the way the case was presented in the National Media. This crime happened on tuesday october 6. Within just a few days i think it was pretty widely believed that this was an antigay hate crime. Matthew was taken to a hospital in fort collins and died in the Early Morning hours of october 12. At the time matthew had died the president of the United States though clinton had made statements urging passage of the hate crime bill that was stalled in congress. Let me just say just a tiny bit about the context. The attack on Matthew Shepherd shepard happened just four months after the dragging death of james bird junior in jasper texas so there was a hate crime bill that was stalled in congress at the time this attack on matthew happened here in laramie. I will go back to my arrival here. I arrived in the courthouse and asked to look at documents and i started to go through those records and take notes during his first trip. I was fortunate that day calarusso was Walking Around up in the county attorneys office. I recognized him because i had seen him in news stories and i just approached him and i said would you talk with me for a few minutes about the case and he agreed. I went into his office and we spoke that first day for about 45 minutes. It was very clear that he was sizing up ion tensions not just then but in the months that followed. He told me that he wanted nothing to do with anything that would inflict any further pain on Matthew Shepards family and i basically said to him, would you help educate me about the case . I wasnt here during the trials and the many Court Proceedings and would you steer me in the right direction as far as some of the documents and he agreed to do that. I took a lot of notes that first trip. I returned east end began a series of interviews with him by phone and then i returned to laramie and continued not just with cowell aruba that but began to talk with other people in Law Enforcement and other people in laramie. Although he didnt say this i kept hearing from other people in town that there was more to this case. Its not as it appeared to be. I had one person Law Enforcement say to me shepards homicide had nothing to do with his sexual preference. My curiosity was aroused. Eight months into my research i finished a first draft of the screenplay largely based on the official record and i came back to laramie. I wanted kal aruba to read the script but i wanted to get any documents that i hadnt copied to take with me but i thought it was going to be my final research trip. I was going through some folders at the courthouse and i came upon a letter and the letter, it was an anonymous letter that was there in the courthouse and essentially what the letter said was bad Aaron Mckinneys gay panic defense was false and it said that Aaron Mckinney was familiar with gay guys at gay bars and he was comfortable being around gay guys and it implied that some of this had to do with receiving money and other favors, that aaron had received money and other favors for his contact with gay guys. It means someone here in laramie is one of Aaron Mckinneys gay friends. So after eight months of working on the screenplay i was in a quandary and i ultimately decided to put the screenplay a side and to begin to look at the case as a journalist. While my experience wasnt as a journalist. I was a documentary filmmaker who had done longform stories in several stories dealing with crime, law and justice so briefly i put the screenplay a side and i began doing some investigation of my own. I would say i did quite a bit of that for about a year. When i had gathered enough information i took the story to the newark times magazine and pitched it to them and based on what i brought them they commissioned me to write an article for the sunday times magazine. I worked on that story on and off. I was doing a couple of other things but i worked on it over a period of two years. This was from 2002 until early 2004 and in 2004, the story was killed at the New York Times magazine. They did not criticize the reporting. They actually said the reporting was really good and we would like to work with you on Something Else but the suggestion was that they really didnt want to go into some of the darker aspects of the story. As luck would have it i was talking at the same time to abc news 2020 because i had hoped that maybe i could do the times magazine story and do a piece for television but when the times magazine killed it i thought forget it, abc is not willing to do this but in fact what happened was that abc news based on the material in the article at times magazine killed abc news said lets do this. And that but the resources of the network behind me and i worked on that story with a producing partner for six months solid and that hes aired in november of 2004 so that was my first bit of reporting publicly that came out on this shepard murder. Inapp piece we said some things and in the book aye quite a bit further because after the abc piece aired i was haunted by some unanswered questions. There was still some additional sources i wanted to talk to. I want to go back to sources that were more information and so that is ultimately what is the book of matt, taking the investigation beyond where the abc news piece was. In the abc news piece for those of you who havent seen it we suggested that Aaron Mckinney and matt shepard had known each other prior to the night of the crime and as you saw from what i read the established story was these were strangers, too quote unquote rednecks walked into a bar and saw a fellow that was well dressed and appeared to be gay and they decided to robin beat him. I was able to trace of that story itself has several different iterations. One of the versions, the version that i read to you was that Matthew Shepard was identified in the bar as being gay and he left with the two strangers. Kristen price, Aaron Mckinneys girlfriend a few days after matthew was found, after the crime she went on National Television coincidentally on abc news 2020 and said that again she was not there. She was not part of the crime and she was not at the fireside lounge that night that based on what Aaron Mckinney had told her she said that what had happened is aaron and russell were in the bar at the fireside. Matthew made a sexual advance on them and it embarrassed them and humiliated them in front of their friends and they decided to take matthew out and beat him up to teach him a lesson not to come on to straight people. Well there were other iterations of the story. By the time of Aaron Mckinneys trial as part of his gay panic defense Aaron Mckinney wasnt saying that matthew had come on to him or to Russell Henderson in the bar but that he, after they had left the bar aaron, russell and matthew after driving through town they were at the other end of town at a walmart and matthew reached over and grabbed him and it was that that had caused him to explode as maffei grabbed him. There were a friday of other versions that were told around this gay panic, okay . I have interviewed Aaron Mckinney and Russell Henderson extensively. I interviewed kristin price and chastity paisley their girlfriends extensively and all four of them admitted to me that the story about matthew making a sexual at dance was really essentially an alibi beginning with when aaron arrived home that night what aaron told kristen and in my opinion anyway this was kind of a stupid defense, kind of a deplorable defense an excuse but it was a story that aaron and kristen decided was some kind of defense and they also enlisted the help of Russell Henderson and chastity paisley in telling that story, that this had to do with matthew making an unwanted sexual advance. I want to read to you one short. This is a short letter and this wasnt released obviously at the time early in the case. This came out later and when i was doing my research at the courthouse this really struck me very much. And i kept looking at it, examining it. This was a letter that Aaron Mckinney wrote. Its a handwritten letter and part of the official record that aaron smuggled to russell here in jail at the Albany County Detention Center this was after they were arrested and aaron was essentially at rising russell about the scenario they should use to explain this attack. So these are Aaron Mckinneys words. Hey homeboy and we go to court if they try us together or separate, they should hear you say what i said so this is what i told them. Me and you, me and you was getting messed up at the bar and when we was fixing to leave matt shepard asked us for a ride home so we gave him a ride. When we got out there he tried to get on made intel is started started and i started kicking him. At no time did we know that he was gay until he tried to get on me. The reason matt told us he lived in Imperial Heights is because he wanted to get me in a dark place so we could get funky. Thats all ive got for now. I am sure i will think of more later. So if you hear Aaron Mckinneys words there there is here yet another version. Maffei us for a ride home and that is why as they were driving matt wanted to get into a funky place which contradicts other things that aaron had made and statements. So without going into all the details, i know some of you have read the book and i hope youll read the book is there are many details that i cant possibly go into in this short time we have here and really what interests me most is the conversation and discussion we can have but i will say a little bit about what i discovered. What i discovered is that in fact Aaron Mckinney and Matthew Shepard were not strangers. They had had a friendship for many months before this crime had happened and i discovered that Russell Henderson had never met Matthew Shepard before that night and the context of the relationship h. Wayne aaron and matthew was not only that they were friends but they have also socialized in some of the same party circles in laramie around methamphetamine, crystal meth. That was one thing that i discovered. Another thing that i discovered is that Aaron Mckinney and Matthew Shepard had more than a friendship. They had a relationship that involves intimacy and they also had a relationship that involves the buying and selling of drugs. Aaron mckinney had been dealing methamphetamine for three years before, and this is welldocumented, for three years before this crime took place. Aaron was addicted to meth and was selling meth. He had certainly been on the radar of Law Enforcement in the town and a bunch of his friends as well that were dealing meth on a small scale. So you know looking at just a couple of those factors, one is they are not strangers but there is a personal relationship and their is also involvement of drugs. That really really caught my attention and that was midway through my investigation so i went on to educate myself about methamphetamine. I contacted some of the leading experts in the country, people that had worked in wyoming in the Rocky Mountain region nationally and even internationally to learn about this drug and i learned a lot about it. I dont need to tell the folks here but just as a reminder, in 1998 when this crime happened here in laramie, methamphetamine was just beginning to become a serious problem here. In the course of my research i interviewed a dealer, a former bartender here in laramie, who ultimately in the early 2000s and about serving time in a federal prison for dealing and he explained to me that he was one of the first people to bring math to laramie in 1993. So you know math was starting to take hold here in the early to mid90s but was certainly a real problem by 1998. The wider context is meth was beginning to be a problem throughout the west in states like missouri, iowa, kansas, nebraska and was moving into the Rocky Mountain west colorado wyoming and montana. It it is our ready beginning to become a big rovlin. Within a couple of years of matthews murder, very high rates of crime that eventually hit about 70 of the crime in the state of wyoming was related back to meth. You had here some of the highest percapita rates of matthews in the nation and that continues to today and it has been for several years. I was driven by something very personal. Once i learned about meth and i know the National Media is not really reporting in any significant way on this story. That didnt really begin until somewhere around 2004, 2005, 2006 it became a Significant National story that magazines like time and newsweek were reporting on but on a perth personal level as a gay man you know in the 1980s i was in new york and the aids epidemic really started to hit by the mid80s and was becoming catastrophic in new york. I ended up losing many many friends that i had. I would say probably 75 maybe of the friends and acquaintances that i had in new york that were gay and mail got sick and at that time this disease was death sentence. Thats not the case today but most people got sick and died within a matter of a few months. You got a series of infections and diseases and you died so for me there was a kind of posttraumatic stress associated with that of just seeing one person after another go from this. Well, to jump ahead several years, im doing work on the story and learning about meth and discover there were some studies being done at Ucla Medical Center showing that there were higher rates of hiv transmission among gay males that were using or abusing crystal meth. Any of you that know about some of the effects of this drug in the early stages, it makes you feel 100 feet tall. You are indestructible. You are powerful. It makes you feel very very good and while using this drug people were feeling they didnt need to use any kind of protection and it was helping the spread of the disease. Learning that horrified me. In 1998 when this crime happened here in laramie the crystal meth epidemic in addition to the areas i mentioned, it was moving through. It had already begun to move through urban gay enclaves particulaparticula rly new york, San Francisco and l. A. There was a crystal meth epidemic again. People were not talking about him or not reporting it at the time. I had been spending a lot of time in wyoming and i realized by 1998 meth is also a problem in denver where matthew had been living before he came to laramie and the summer of 1998. Eventually i learned quite a bit about matthews life in denver before he came to laramie but he had friends here. Before he moved here to attend the university of wyoming one of his very good friends who taught at the university of wyoming, matt stayed at walts house and came to denver in state at the house. At the time matthew was attacked he had a drivers license that had walled old ands address here in laramie so eventually where this took me is into the drug world into the world of methamphetamine. I interviewed many friends of Aaron Mckinney who were involved in using and selling meth here. I learned some things about who their suppliers were. Some of those suppliers ended up serving prison time later. I also learned about the people Matthew Shepard had gotten involved in denver before you move to laramie and a few of those people were from laramie had grown up here but moved to denver and they too moved back and forth. So i dont want to ruin your reading of the book and go into a lot more details in terms of what i discovered about what was going on on the night of the crime that i would like to just ask because i highlighted a couple of places in the book and i was wondering just based on what i have told you if maybe someone might offer a suggestion what interests you in terms of what im talking about right now because i would like to read just one more passage and then id like to turn this over to a discussion and conversation because i cant possibly go through everything that is in the book. I do have the passage regarding Russell Henderson that i would like to read. Its a short one but is there anything else, anything that folks here are interested in hearing me talk about or to read something from the book . Im just interested in hearing how dennis and judy Shepard Shepard feel about the book. Im happy to answer that. I thought we would get to that later in questions that but id be happy to talk about that. There has been no direct response from dennis and judy. What there was is there was a statement that was released. The book has been out for about four months and i believe it was an early out over. The book had just been out for him after a few days and there was a Statement Released by the Matthew Shepard foundation saying, and im really paraphrasing here, it was a short statement, one paragraph long. It just said we are not going to respond to innuendos or rumors or conspiracy theories and said that they would continue, they would continue with the work they had set out to do in matthews memory but there was not a single, there was not a single reference to anything in the book, any specifics so do no saying this is not true for this reason and that has been the case over the last four months. In the book i have along quote from Jason Marsden who is currently the executive director of the Matthew Shepard foundation. Along quote, theyre there are actually a couple of quotes that come from the interview a videotaped interview i did with Jason Marsden in 2004 in which jason acknowledges very clearly that the picture painted by the media of Matthew Shepard is really inaccurate and he also talks about methamphetamine and acknowledges that this was perhaps the worst methamphetamine related crime in the history of wyoming. You are welcome. Yes. When you are interviewing the people that were in the jail cells with them in prison . Not in prison but in jail here in laramie and i was fortunate to get access to notes taken by a defense investigator who interviewed i believe it was 15 or 17 of aaron and russells fellow inmates in jail while they were awaiting trial for matthews murder. There were a couple of people on that list that i also interviewed myself because i found their names on that list. I contacted them and i interviewed them and one of thes had a long arrest record for methamphetamine related offenses said that in the jail Aaron Mckinney acknowledged to him that this whole thing happened because the drugs and drugs they were trying to get from Matthew Shepard. Is there anything that you found that showed the effect or solidification of Public Opinion after the movie was released as opposed to just the trial . When you are talking about the movie, i really cant say anything statistically but what i can say is that the Laramie Project was a play first which began at the Denver Theatre Center and then it ended up getting done in many places in the country and then it became an hbo film. Since the hbo film there has been what they call the epilogue 10 years later. Its sort of a to the Laramie Project. When they did part 2 they spoke about coming back to laramie and doing interviews and the implication was that they found it troubling that 10 years earlier more people seem to believe this was an antigay hate crime and when they came back 10 years later the percentage of people that believed this was drug related had increased. I think what i will do is just read one passage here. And folks if you have questions come to the mic at the lower right hand portion of the auditorium. That way everyone else in the auditorium can hear your question. Thanks. Im going to read just a short passage here about Russell Henderson and the reason im going to read this is because when i came to the story i really believed based on what the media had said that Aaron Mckinney and Russell Henderson were equally involved in this crime and i certainly understand what the felony murder statute is and i understand Russell Hendersons role as an accomplice but when i came here i thought both of these men beat matthew to death and i thought the oath had a motive and what i learned over time as i came to understand the relationship between Aaron Mckinney and Matthew Shepard is Aaron Mckinney actually did have a motive and in fact he had motives plural. Russell henderson did not have a motive. Thats not in any way to excuse any of russells actions but i would like to read to you because i have known both men now. I began communicating with aaron and russell in 2002 so its almost 12 years. I have visited them in prisons. I have followed them over many years and they have moved all around the country. They started here and they went to nevada, texas, oklahoma, virginia and then came back to wyoming. So i have gotten to know both of them quite well but im going to take you back a little bit. This is a little excerpt from chapter 12 which is called Indian Springs and im not going to read, im just going to take a couple of short excerpts to let you know what my thinking was early on in this investigation is related to russell. Other than Matthew Shepard himself no one involved in the laramie tragedy perplexed me more than Russell Henderson. At the start of my investigation i accept it as fact that he and Aaron Mckinney had participated more or less equally in beating matthew, an impression first solidified in the onslaught of Media Coverage following the attack. Time magazine citing Unnamed Police sources reported quote, mckinney apparently taking turns with henderson began pounding shepard on the head with a 357 magnum revolver. Other leading news organizations stated conclusively that oath men beat matthew. According to the denver post quote the assailants kept hitting him until they believed he was dead. Yet two weeks after matthew died u. S. News and world report said it was henderson who allegedly pistol whipped him. Aaron mckinney and Russell Henderson were repeatedly compressed by the media into a single personality with an identical set of motives. The New York Times was one of the few news organizations to hand at serious character differences. If Russell Henderson was a quiet follower the times stated 10 days after the attack, Aaron Mckinney was a man with a short fuse but long after both men were convicted confusion persisted over the real nature of Russell Hendersons involvement. Nothing i could find and Russell Hendersons personal history seem to fit with the violence of the murder. In contrast to Aaron Mckinney had a reputation around laramie for a volatile temper as well as long juvenile record. As a boy mckinney allegedly abused animals for the fun of it. After hendersons arrest for the 1998 attack his landlord described him to a reporter as quote quiet, polite, just your average male and the most american kid you can gather. I have a hard time imagining him coming up with anything like this on his own she stated. It seems extremely out of character. Skipping ahead a little bit here by the time of our first facetoface interview in the spring of 2003, before that we did letters and i also did a number of recorded interviews with both russell and aaron. By the time of our first facetoface interview in the spring of 2003 russell had been transferred from wyoming state penitentiary to an austere prison in a desert. He was then in the fifth year of his doublelife sentence. One purpose of the interview was to find out how involved russell really was in the violence inflicted on Matthew Shepard. Matthew had been beaten so severely with the barrel of mckinneys gun that his skull had been crushed. It was the topic russell had been wary of discussing in letters or phone conversations when he knew they would be monitored by prison authorities but because of my persistent doubts i had questioned him or let loosely anyway, his story was always the same. Quote from one of his letters, i have told you everything i know and would even take a polygraph test to prove it to you. Maybe since i have been plastered all over the tv as one of the killers people want me to be more involved than i really was. Believe me, this life that i now have to live with be a lot easier if that were true. I hope that someday you will believe me but i understand why you dont. And there is a little break there. High desert state prison tucked in the outskirts of Indian Springs nevada was a onehour drive to bear and clay colored hills from the extravagantly outsize Bellagio Hotel in masse gives where i was staying for two nights the New York Times magazine had given me a modest travel budget at the last minute i had gotten a lowpriced package deal on line. Leaving behind the flashy commerce of the strip i soon found myself surrounded in every direction by clear cobalt skies which made the horizon itself seem like a mirage. I arrived at the prison wearing jeans and a pale denim shirt my head buzzed close to the scalp and was promptly advise that i was being turned away because my attire was virtually identical to the inmates uniform. An affable female guard with some some rank smiled at my dilemma. Your haircut doesnt help she said that she was also quick to give directions to the Super Walmart act on the highway close to the edge of las vegas. If you hightail that you can buy yourself a new suit of clothing and be back here in just over an hour she promised. Sure enough when Russell Henderson was escorted in to visit later that morning he looked exactly as i had earlier right down to the shaved scalp. Russell was shorter than average, about 5 feet 7 inches with a compact slightly stocky build. As he joined me at a drab metal table in the middle of the room i felt the steady gaze of his glassy blue green eyes. Russell seemed intent on quickly assessing everything about me before i had a chance to do the same to him. Maybe it was a survival skill picked up in prison but from what i had already learned secondhand he had spent much of his life in a state of high alert. As we faced each other across the table and slowly got acquainted rustles answers to my questions were quick and flat. In earlier phone conversations he had also come across as exceedingly introverted and guarded. Near the end of that first visit i asked how he was coping with two life sentences. Without a grain of selfpity russell answered, i belong here for what i did. Im not sure what i expected him to say but i heard none of the usual convicts complained that he was innocent or got messed over by the system or was framed by someone else. There was much i hoped Russell Henderson would clarify that day and the next morning when i returned. Instead i left the nevada prison somewhat disappointed by his reticence. At its april 1999 sentencing russell headed to did that he drove the truck the night Matthew Shepard was robbed and beaten and that it was he who tied matthew to the fence albeit on the instructions of Aaron Mckinney. Get russell also told me explicitly on several occasions that he quote, never raised a hand against matthew. I never struck him, never hit him he repeated at a letter later date. I never even pushed him, never even shook his hand. Since russell had agreed to a plea bargain and never present a concrete evidence to support his version of events why should he be believed now . After visiting him i arrived back in my Las Vegas Hotel room more puzzled than ever by his matteroffact yet seemingly candid account of the crime that landed him in prison for the rest of his life. I also felt a sense of confinement as i stared out the window at an opulent mosaic tiled Swimming Pool in the perfectly manicured gardens many stories below. That evening while drifting through the packed hotel casino in search of a restaurant hunters of slots machines flashing their colored lights the sensation of being trapped on a surreal journey of my own was exacerbated and theres a little break here. Long after he and i met i had heard a rumor in laramie that his first year at the wyoming state and its injury was a nightmare, that he had been placed in segregation or a time or his own protection. There had been talk of a mom and dad taking ownership of him as their boy. Which he steadfastly did night to me. If true it was a humiliation. He clearly did not want me writing about it. After my initial visit with russell i would not admit to anyone but myself but discomfort spark in me as i got to know him personally or the empathy i began to feel. Most of the time i retreated to a more detached fashion mall stands in part to protect my work on the story but mostly to protect myself from becoming attached to him. At age 25 with two life sentences and a reputation as a contemptible antigay killer russells predicament was nothing if not bleak. I think that will do it for some readings for now. Okay, any questions . Species, going back to how the media handled this the story of the murder change significantly in a fairly quick time when it went from a robbery that got way out of hand to a hate crime. The National Media have not set upon laramie but the story picked up significant context in the form of this narrative that we are talking about in pretty short fashion. Youve write and im quoting here that angle from matthews friends that had no firsthand knowledge of the crime yet felt compelled to begin contacting the media and gay organizations to create a narrative. What compelled them . Thats a great question. First of all the two friends of matthews we talked about were walt bolden and alex trump. Walt bolden was teaching at the university of wyoming. He was in his mid40s. Alex trapp was the end of matthew, close in age to matthew. Alex trout met matthew in casper when matthew was about 15 years old so they had known each other for quite some time. Alex trout knew him for a few years but not as long. Just to mention a couple of facts. Walt and alex, walt was contacted by dennis shepard. Dennis shepard called waltz from saudi arabia when he got the news that matthew had been attacked and the waltz and alex, matthew was moved quickly from the hospital here down to valley and alex and walt flu they there and in the book one of his friends have also gone to the hospital. Walt and alex and this came up in my own interviews with them immediately began calling gay organizations in wyoming and colorado as well as they phoned the Casper Star Tribune saying that their belief was this was an antigay hate crime. I learned that they came to cal reruchas office and kept saying matthew is gay and we dont want this fact to go unnoticed. Deb thompson mentioned they showed up that night at the boomerang saying the same thing. I did later learn that alex trout and again i interviewed alex trout and track them down at that time in rochester new york and flew there to meet him. Alex admitted he had a problem with methamphetamine that you know he didnt want to go on the record talking about any of Matthews Drug use that alex is significant because almost immediately after the crime happened there were two Different Police reports that mention when alex was questioned initially he told police that matthew had gotten involved with cocaine and methamphetamine when he was living in denver. Again these were records that were sealed and not available for journalists to look at. I learned later and i found it curious that Matthews Family did not allow alex and walt into st. Marks church for the funeral but alex and walt took this and ran with it. They ended up within days of the crime in washington d. C. On the steps of the capital with a number of politicians and Ellen Degeneres and her then girlfriend and they made statements on the steps of the capital at a rally days after all of this happened. So what their motives were, but they had no direct knowledge of the crime as you mentioned and i do say that in the book. As far as i know they had no direct knowledge of the crime. Alex certainly knew about Matthews Drug use and walt certainly knew since he had known mathewson see was 15 and there were also problems in other areas of matthews history. The narrative has been established now that by the media that it is a hate crime. Why was there or why is there a reluctance among the media to break away from a narrative once it is established . The drug rumors surfaced with and i think probably a few days. There was plenty of downtime for reporters to go out and flush those rumors out between Court Proceedings but your book says only one reporter looked into it only reporter that looked into it seriously was jo ann who wrote a really long piece for harpers magazine and that piece was published before Aaron Mckinneys trial but again she was really hampered by the gag to witnesses and the sealed court records. But i will say that jo ann, when i began to look into these areas she was extremely generous and actually went back to some of her reporting notes and gave me some leads that i was able to pursue. One lead for example was with ryan, a fellow who was a friend of aarons that traded for 357 magnum that became the murder weapon. Ryan bopp with someone that i was able to track down and he acknowledged to me that he would be getting high on methamphetamine with the Aaron Mckinney for days prior to the crime, that he and his now wife had gone to Aaron Mckinneys apartment and along with kristin price the four of them have been doing math just a few days before the crime. But you know its been very interesting to trace how this story took off so quickly that any mention of methamphetamine at the time ray was minimal. It did come up a a little bit during Aaron Mckinneys trial but by then as far as the public was concerned this was clearly an antigay hate crime. It think its fair to say also any suggestion that this was anything but a hate crime would have resulted in someone bringing up that idea and being harshly criticized. I think thats true and ive certainly experienced that myself. Now i think you know people are more receptive. 15 years have passed but there has been, for years i can say that in the early years i was i was reporting this i have many colleagues and friends who would say why are you doing this . Why are you digging into Something Like this . There are many answers but to say that this is as a journalist and also as a gay man human complexities matter and in this case it behooves us to understand. If we are serious about dealing with this kind of violence and we are serious about it in its many forms lets look at the complexities and understand what happened. The press also made attempts to embellish the story a little bit. Talk about some of the storylines the press try to puse about how he was hunkers affection style. Yes, that started pretty early on in one of the early press conferences. Someone suggested that matthew had been crucified to a fence and he had an strong up. I remember at the time seeing an illustration in the Philadelphia Inquirer and the literally showed someone crucified on offense and that took off very very quick way. A year after the murder happened judy shepard was addressed in a natch National Conference of journalists and she said and im paraphrasing here but the essence was i really try to take away that saintlike persona that you have given matthew. He was described as being, that he was tied to the fence in the manner of christ which really didnt happen that nobody seems to want to write about how it really did happen. But it was a vivid tabloid image that when vanity fair publish their major article it was called the crucifixion of Matthew Shepard. There were many inaccuracies. I remember dissect king a paragraph in time magazines coverage and i found six factual errors in one paragraph in time magazine. Russell henderson and Aaron Mckinney were described as tall muscular men. There was a headline in the Washington Post that said, their lead headline said that matthew had been burned at the fence. The suggestion was he had an burned with cigarettes to be tortured. That never happened. There is a long list of my going to some of them in the book about the ways in which, in the place of facts. There was a great deal of mythologizing in the crucifixion image which is so powerful, i think it really stuck. It question from the audience. First i would like to thank you for joining us. When you started this investigation, and this is really a bizarre situation. I was supposed to meet with my nephew to work on a computer in cheyenne and i heard on the radio over in cheyenne on the radio that this was going on. This had been appointed ventures interest in my life for a wild, how this all went. This is just absolutely crazy. When i said to you are as a little bit about you interviewing people in the cell i just found out tonight that my nephew spent three months with russell and talk to rate length with him. Aaron, or what was his name . Aaron mckinney. Aaron mckinney was extremely antisomatic and he was always diagnosed also diagnosed as schizophrenic and that plagued the relationship between Aaron Russell a lot. They were actually at the bar that night looking for somebody else in particular when they ran into Matthew Shepard and they were both, aaron and russell were coming down off of the drugs i guess and hostile and angry and a lot of things but like i said this is just crazy. I found out because i called my nephew and i said im not going to make our appointment tonight with a computer and i mentioned where i was going. He said youre not going to believe this. So in 2007 he was in the wyoming state pen with russell. I just kind of wonder when you talk about interviewing and stuff did you ever find out that being diagnosed schizophrenic and very antisomatic antisemitic was errands, two of his major problems . Let me just say this. First of all i know that Aaron Mckinney was treated with a number of drugs soon after he was arrested at the jail for a friday of things. He was on suicide watch and he was treated for a variety of psychological issues. Im not familiar with the diagnosis of schizophrenia. As far sure comments about antisemitism, aaron had cultivated kind of this bad boy attitude that he associated with gangster rap and there were a lot of putdowns that he would use verbally that kind of fit with some of that culture. Called them names and things like that but i have never seen anything and ive certainly never heard aaron say anything in an antisemitic nature but what i do know is the surgeon that performed the surgery on aarons mother who died as a result of the surgery, i believe it was dr. Sean that he had actually attacked richie shone at the bar here in town. Again the Aaron Mckinney was a very confused young man and he fancied himself as kind of a gangster in the way that some of those rap stars and hiphop guys do. I cant say enough about antisemitism because i am it is not something ive experienced directly with him. Excuse me one second. Come and take this chair right here because i want you to be part of the questioning process here. No, please, please. Don was supposed to be part of this and somehow we. Its no problem. Actually we ended up being sort of redundant because ray is doing a good job with a number of questions. I am a retired publisher from the boomerang and im just going to as far as the question and answer period. I moved to wyoming in 2001 from idaho so i came on this story long afterthefact. I came in and of number of you that i have seen here before actually told me not to be, to assume that what i had heard from the National Media was really the whole story or what actually happened. I really dont want to have to kill another person. Then he laughed and said, dont worry. That has nothing to do with what we did. So so, the implication was the implication was that Matthew Shepherds Matthew Shepard being gay had nothing to do with the reason might kill them. I do agree with that. Anyway, that relieve my nephew of the fear of the you know i hope youre not gay because i dont want to have to kill another person. Then he said, dont worry. That is not what we did. Okay. We can juggle back and forth here. We will let some other questions report, to mike. While we are waiting for somebody else to come up. One of the things from the perspective of the daily newspaper journalists, your book in your reporting and your projects you penned a lot more heavily on both anonymous quotes and in some cases unsubstantiated as far as the things. I know it is a different genera, but how could you explain to us a little bit about how you make the decisions of what you are going to include, what youre not going to clued go and what you look for to determine the credibility of people who are telling you things. First of all, just to say when you say unsubstantiated, they are not unsubstantiated in the sense that sources that i have named in the boat, for whom i have used a pseudonym or are an anonymous source have been invented many, many times, including when i was at abc news. Every single reporting note and every contact was gone through by a team of the senior lawyers at abc news. There was also a Fact Checking process that happened with my publisher. There is no source that i have used in the book that is unnamed that has not been backed up, you know, with additional affirmation. But let me offer a little bit more of an explanation. In the book at the end of the book there are 112 named sources that i spoke with over the course of my research of the many years. In the book there are what i would say is really a handful of people for whom i gave pseudonyms or people that insisted on anonymity in order to go on the record. You have to realize that i began this work a long time ago. In the years immediately following the crime, okay, 2000, 2001, 2002, people were reluctant to talk. I had to explain to people of the gag order was a logger in place and they could talk without fear of repression. But the real reason that i use some of the Anonymous Sources is that for one thing there were some people that were only willing to talk with me on condition of anonymity. Messily includes people on one side of the law who were involved in illicit activities of a variety of kinds. But there were also people in Law Enforcement that i was really fortunate to the report said that over time several people and Law Enforcement or willing to give me permission and cooperate with me. Lets be honest. This was a dangerous story to report. At the time that i started going into the methamphetamine underworld and were dealing with the people that were higher up on the food chain then Erin Mckinney and Matthew Shepard, it was dangerous. I wont read one of the passages, but theres a place in the book where there was a very close call where i met with the source out really in rock springs. The first part took place in a pretty desolate truck stop area. And even though i had interviewed described previously , i found myself set up by two cars back then on either side of us, and i really had said, you know, run and get out of there as quickly as i could, but when i say this was a dangerous story, the people in Law Enforcement, some of them who helps me, a few of them are still working in Law Enforcement today. And, again, i am sure most of you know this year, but you have done several agencies, the Albany County sheriffs office, the Laramie Police department, you have the division of criminal investigation. Once you get into drug stuff you have the d. A. And the fbi and in the Matthew Shepard case there was a firearm involved. So you had out of tobacco and firearms. I was not willing to expose any of the people that helped me with this story. But there was people on one side of the law or on the others of law. Like can say is that every Single Source that i have used in the book has been vetted. I had to show information that was supportive about those sources and substantiated. For example, there are a couple of sources in the book for whom i use pseudonyms, but these are people that we film and camera for the abc news 20 20 story and may be in the final story there was only a 30 or 452 clip of them that we have filled a 2hour interview. I am using material that comes from those official transcripts that were vetted by the attorneys in the top executives at abc. My publisher has been extremely scrupulous about wanting to know where everything came from and seeing the material. Is there a question some where . Yes. I have a couple of comments. And a request for you. I have read the books onetime thoroughly and gone back and marked passages. And in the book their is a passage, i believe correct me if i am wrong, about something that Erin Mckinney said from prison. I remember that he says believe that he says he was better off there, bud my question is, didnt he Say Something about how bad he fell to, that he really did deserve to be there . But Russell Henderson was guilty only of keeping his mouth shut. Index, it is a short. Let me see if i can gravid year. Yes, i did find it. Good. Yes. It is this was in a phone interview with Aaron Mckinney. I said here, he spoke with unexpected candor about his accomplice Russell Anderson. It is really hard for me to talk to ross, to see him in this situation knowing that i am the one that put him near. I want that i ruined that guys life. He was a good kid, as between. He didnt do nothing. The only thing that man is guilty of is keeping his mouth shut. I think that as a powerful statement. And i guess my comment is, how are you going to continue making this point that, yes, there was an accomplice, but also a real killer. And what are the prospects, do you think, for russell . Obviously he cannot give a retrial because he never had a trial. He was talked into a plea bargain against his will. And with the threat of a death sentence over is said over his head. Where can this go . And i realized, there is lot that no one knows at this point, but in the best of circumstances what can be accomplished by all of this and how it lays out a whole different story . Just to say, i just met this woman here. Her name is jane with sen. I just matter today. Jane was living in tennessee and wrote the book and got in touch a few months ago. She wrote an article from line. I believe it was p. J. Media about the book. We have correspond a little bit. Let me just say a few simple facts. The appeals, the appeal process is over for Russell Anderson in terms of time. Any you know, there is just no opportunity here in terms of anything around an appeal. But i want to stress that as one person when i began this i was under the assumption that these two men were equally involved in this crime. I understand what the felony murder statute is, and someone can be found guilty of murder even if they physically did not participate in the murder itself but or an accomplice. And have come under roman law, is what Russell Henderson was convicted of. I will say very personally, i was so struck by the difference of only in their actions in relationship to the crime, when i can say now that i really cannot believe that Russell Henderson had a motive on in the level for hurting Matthew Shepard. I believe that Russell Anderson realize that there was a robbery that was going to take place when the left the bar. I dont think that Russell Anderson was aware of all of the previous relationship between Aaron Mckinney and Matthew Shepard. Russell anderson used Matthew Shepard, but he was not a dealer there is no evidence whatsoever he was a dealer, but he did note that Aaron Mckinney was dealing and that he supply their whole group of friends. I understand what the law is. , morally speaking that is a different issue because i will say that i am troubled by the fact that k9 took at 357 magnum and smashed it into the skull of Matthew Shepard somewhere between 16 and 18 times. Those were fatal wounds that caused his death. Russell anderson was certainly an accomplice to a major of the truck when twitter. Com booktv told him to a time that you to the incident that, but there is very clear evidence that Russell Anderson, when he attempted to stop k9 during the beating that canine star cam across the mouth with the murder weapon. And henderson got nine stitches that night. There is fact that i just want to mention that i think is important to consider where methamphetamine has since turned in a 24 hour time frame that included the attack, erin as salted for males in at 24 hours timeframe. This happened on a tuesday night. The attack on nancy. On monday night aaron broke into his cousin, looking for friends, fellow that airing claimed owed him money for drugs. This was a fellow that erin had beaten up before. And when he lunged for this guy the other guys in the house pulled him off. This was but he was intending to really hurt this guy. Obviously the attack on matthew was by far the more severe crime the injuries were veiled, but now you have Russell Anderson who attempts to stop it, stoppage, it struck and russell had seen aaron beat out other people. He stepped back and withdrew. Matthew is tied to the fence. They leave and go downtown to a residential area. This is minutes later they get into a scuffle with two young hispanic guys. Aaron goes to the track and gets the murder weapon and brings it back and he now strikes one of the young hispanic kids across the head. The fellow had a wound that ran completely across this goal. There was a picture in vanity fair of the wound that this fellow suffered. He ended up the hospital. So one question i would ask is, what was driving Aaron Mckinney . Why did he assault for people in that 24 hour time frame, three of from where straight and one was gay. And this, you know, the assault on the three straight males were little talked about. The attack on and Matthew Shepard became an antigay hate crime. Hi, there. Zillow. The queue for writing the book and being here tonight. My question is that i think everyone, no matter how they felt about the crime on either side of the aisle in laramie or nationally appreciated your investigative nature and for finding the truth of what really happened. Are you concerned that any misguided people will take you rode in the book and create a new kind of false narrative where they say, well, see, there was not a problem with telephone bien this country or in the world today . Have you seen that . Would your response be to someone who seems to hold that misguided attitude . First of all, this fall eye toward around the country to 32 cities and towns. And so tonight this is number 33, but i have had a chance to talk with people all around the country. I have done about 45 radio interviews. And radio interviews have come from radio hosts across the political spectrum. And i have made it very clear that do not want to be part of politicizing what is in the book. I did not write the book for that reason. Yes, there have been some people on the extremes that have been misguided in a way that they have interpreted this. But i will say that there have also been, you know, there has been a lot of very constructive and positive reflection that has happened on the left, including from a number of the journalists who have written very positively about what i am addressing in the book. There have also been people, there was a very fine piece on the american conservative website. You know, Andrew Sullivan, the daily dish has covered my work on this pretty extensively. So i have found that there are intelligent, thoughtful commentaries across the political spectrum, there have been a couple of people on the margin that have tried to use this book to score political points. And that is not what the message of this book is. And as i have gone talking about the book, which i think will continue because the paperback is coming out of the fall, that i will really emphasize that point, but i would like to just make one additional common. That is that, you know, this was a horribly violent, grotesquely violent crime. But it is, you know, the easy way of, we can deal heroic by feeling sad about what happened to matthew Matthew Shepard. It takes more courage, okay, its a look of the complexities of this and understand what really happens here, to try to understand who was Matthew Shepard, who was Russell Henderson, who was Aaron Mckinney, and how did this horrible tragedy happened . Again, if were serious about preventing these things we need to understand that. Part of my messages, lets be courageous. Lets look at the complexities of this. And theyre is a tragedy here, but it is not just matthews tragedy. There is tragedy for Russell Henderson. Theres a tragedy for Aaron Mckinney and all the families involved. I would urge all of us, including myself, to try to go a little deeper into this because that is where the challenges, you know, having some courage and some compassion to looking at what really brought this about rather than reducing it to this blackandwhite scenario the way the National Media did. Hi, there. I have a question about the media and media portrayals. Yes. I am wondering why it would be while we are being found and who is doing it and what is going to be used for . Sure. This is cspan on cable television. They cover authors and books events. When i began my tour in San Francisco, cspan came because the book was viewed as controversial and there would be conversation and discussion. So the films. Todays year they said there would like to comment on the events in laramie, particularly to hear some of the conversation so we will be on tv . [laughter] it will be on national tv. I dont know wind, but fairly soon. You check the schedule for cspan, it is a book show. I can tell you, is not the essay that is your doing it. [laughter] as far as i know. [laughter] oh, im sorry. Since i came as far as i did i am going to make another coming. And i asked just that you give for the person and then you do the next one . Want to give everyone a chance. You mentioned earlier when you were talking about the media and how the story took off and you mentioned in the book that the hate crimes bill was being held up and that the white house was pretty interested in giving that past. So i wonder if while you were doing your research if you found any connection with the Agenda Setting that took place coming from some political pressure. Wonder if you found anything like that. Yes, i did. Once again, would like to say can you hear . Okay. Good. Im getting a little reverse here. In my opinion after researching this i think that this was something there was multiply determined. There were a number of factors, number of things going not the same time. The National Context was this happened exactly at the time that bill clinton was in his worst moment in the mock a lewinsky scandal. The week before this crime happened, okay, Kenneth Starr released about 4,000 pages of the land that trip Monica Lewinsky tate, the transcript. And the following week, the week that the sperm actually happened was a week that the house are representatives to vote for full impeachments of bill clinton. I am not saying that i have found information that there was some conspiracy and washington. Lets face it. When a president is in crisis and theres a possibility that he could be impeached and lose his presidency, one thing that he is going to do is shore up all of his key constituencies and present a picture to the public of him as a leader. Personally i have problems when a politician, president is making political statements about the case before the police have completed an investigation, suggesting that there is a direct connection between this crime when matthew was still alive and passing a hate crime bill in congress. I will say that i have similar problems, and this is another reflection of the case, but with trade on margin. Okay. Let the jury, you know, which the facts can make decisions. There were so many advanced to decisions in the media, and i thought it was an appropriate. I voted for obama, but i thought was inappropriate that he was making statements before the jury could really fully examine the case. But this was a particularly bad time, that year, 1998, for the Gay Community. Months before the attack on matthew the Gay Community was really feeling underseas because there was a Strong Movement that if youre gay you could go straight if you to some weekend seminar. You know, at the time said majority leader trent lott was on television saying the people are centers according to his reading of the bible. Patrick robertson saying, you know, of homosexuality is the last tap in the decline of gentiles civilization. And so when this happened, you know, when this event happened, when matthew was attacked it was seized upon. This is, you know, this is what this kind of hatred or this kind of presleys to. But there was a kind of hysteria attached to the reaction of some of those people. I remember a playwright, tony cushman. I have great admiration for his work. He made some ridiculous statements within days of this attack on nancy. He said he was blaming, you know, the religious white conservatives and specific political leaders. He wrote a piece clamming that these people responsible for mendes death. And that is just baloney. Someone we have not talked about tonight is cal jarupa. Yes. A guy that received a lot of pressure from a lot of different angles to get a conviction. Yes. And to do so very publicly. And what. And what i am asking you is talk about your interactions with cal, the pressures that you recognized particularly from the Clinton Administration, but i think also here locally to make sure that this was handled correctly. Well, and it goes back to what i was saying about this being multiply determined. The Clinton Administration and this was coming largely through jan reno, the attorney general, there was real concern that this event and laramie could explode into a national catastrophe. There was concern, remember the Oklahoma City bombing happened under bill clinton. The waco incident happened under bill clinton, and there was a concern that the polarizing around this case could, perhaps the lead to some explosion of violence and laramie. I know that at the very beginning of the case there was talk the federal government was talking about prosecuting the case is a federal case. Cal robo was standing in the background. After a couple of weeks billion know, i dont know if it was two weeks, three weeks of the federal government and basically said we are about. We want you to prosecute the case. There was also a kind of a promise that was made verbally that the federal government would support the prosecution and, in fact, other than a little bit of help with forensic testing the support from the federal government never came through. But cal jarupa is someone who, while this was going on, did, indeed, faced death threats. There was a bullet fired into his living room window at home when he had two kids its own. You know, his kid said to be detected by federal agents because they could not ride to the in the school bus anymore. And this is something that, you know, i have substantiated carefully. When i will say is that i find cal billion know, i have known impersonally for along time. I am familiar was of the politics. I have found him around this case to be a man of maximum integrity. He never abated anything. Foul was looking for documents he pointed me in the direction to find it. You have to realize store when youre prosecuting a criminal case and people have asked me this question. He steered away from the mans a methamphetamine was case is going on. And he did that because he believed that the defense was going to use that in a strong way. They use it not as strongly and ultimately as he thought there would, but he had been so frank. He has a knowledge on the record, and this is a pair phrase of a , but he said, if erin mckinny had not become involved with methamphetamine, Matthew Sheppard would be alive today. Was there political pressure . Absolutely. In some of it was local. I know that the number of politicians call them. Pau consummated very clear that he wanted the Death Penalty for these two young men. I am not saying that callous following what the president wanted, but this was a case where there were big political stakes. And i am absolutely certain that he felt what was going on. The conversation that cal had with matthews parents win they asked him not to seek the Death Penalty. Okay. This is, you know, reported in the book. At the end of the trial of Aaron Mckinney after he was found guilty, what would have happened here in wyoming is you go on to the penalty phase. And the Defense Attorneys, and mckinneys Defense Attorneys on the back of a conversation with the shepherds. So they had that conversation. Dennis shepherd was not keen on being there, but Judy Sheppard did talk with them. And there was a deal struck at erin mckinny would not go on to the penalty phase where he could potentially face the Death Penalty. Then there were some conditions that Aaron Mckinney agreed to as part of a sentencing deal, as sentencing agreement. He would not he wouldnt waive his right to all future Appeals Committee would refrain from talking to the media. He made any money from a story in the future it would go to the Matthew Shepard foundation. There were several conditions. Cal, and the conversation you are describing with dennis and judy, cow expressed frustration about not going on to the penalty phase. I can say this is my interpretation. Maybe you would say Something Else. I think he is committed to following the laws of the state of wyoming as they exist from what i think he also feels that Capital Punishment is something to be reserved for the most extreme of instances. I think he wanted to go on to the penalty phase. I think that the shepherd family may have had their reasons not to go on to the penalty phase. Because when you do in duration that was not admissible during the trials would be a miscible during the penalty phase, and at that point people might have learned a lot more about the case that they never heard about during the trial. That is exactly the book says, have the case proceeded to the penalty phase as required prior wyoming law previously concealed information about matthew, erin, and russell which have been admissible during the trial could have been presented to the jury. Yes. Indeed. I had another question that i wanted to ask you in reference the drying will. They gave a panic defends the mckinny use, a diversion to protect the drug suppliers they worked for . Well, a couple of things. Aaron mckinney, it Aaron Mckinney had been by sexually active, but at the time this crime took place he had a live and girlfriend. They had a 4monthold child. And, you know, a case like this happens. Now suddenly you are going to tell the world all of your secrets. So they gave panic defense was part of his cover. Not just to the sexual activity, but also, Aaron Mckinney had drug suppliers, people supplied him with methamphetamine that he would then goddess sell. Some of these people have been in trouble with the law will for, some of them wore out a functioning in doing fine. And Aaron Mckinney was very reluctance. And any time i got close because i went to some of these suppliers work he would get very angry about me using the name. So i did to men in the book, in the case and things of of his suppliers, which really can from Public Records, you know, i learned some, in part, from Aaron Mckinney, but his cohorts provided me with names. I checked out the records and thats why put in the book. Oh, sure. I. I also want to thank you for writing the book and dismissing the rumors that it was a hate crime. I am really concerned and wondering, you and cal and the rest of the people involved in the book, the ones to have threats against them, are they still worried about threats that may come down the road . Especially with the being yearend wailing again, not encouraging are advocating, but just wondering if you are still concerns of threats following writing the book and coming here again . One thing you learn in journalism and when i think this applies to many areas of life. If i give my word to someone, i am going to live by my word. I am not going to the upper chin mystically exploit a resource where i agree that the terms of them talking to me is that i not use their name and in your user name. And, you know, there were a few dangerous moments here for me as an investigator, but i felt that it was important. You know, there have been times along the way or i have not been alone. Abc news has all of my reporting notes, and they know people named and unnamed. Then i, again, my goal is, i am not a Law Enforcement agents, Law Enforcement officer. My job is not to go investigate people and get them arrested and prosecuted for crimes. Do i think there are people that are unhappy about when i have written the book . Yes, but i think that it is my job as an investigative journalist to excavate and report as much of the trip as i can. I think in our culture right now there are many areas where we could capitulate to fear. I think this is a particular moment in american beyond the Matthew Sheppard case where we really need to have some courage and bravery and around what our rights are in this country and standing up for them in dealing with issues that we think are important regardless of our political persuasion. So i am not trying to give myself physically hurt, but i think by respecting people on all sides, you know, of this case that, you know, this day no one has spoken to me and has done in any direct trouble or retaliated against former reporting which is one thing i am proud of because i gave them my word that i would not hurt them and am not going to. Thank you very much. Youre welcome. [applause] thank you for coming to laramie. And i have read the book. After hearing you tonight i am questioning, i am curious why in the ad it had to be placed him of this event is not being endorsed by the university of wyoming. How did that come out . It is a procedural thing. Someone who helped organize the event learn from someone at the university that it is not an official university of that, if youre going to post notices on campus that they ask you to the put something that just says this event is not endorsed by the university of wyoming. So just out of respect, those were the conditions under which we could post fires and we did, and i wanted to respect their policy. Yes. I was just wondering. Given the National Pressure on this case from the very beginning, the night that it happened, in any of your investigations did you find any evidence of any malfeasance on the part of the larry police department, the beverly county sheriffs department, the prosecution, the d. A. s office a more any other agency on up to the federal level . Any evidence that evidence was ignored, manipulated, thrown away the or any other in any other way to make this case and the evidence this the national narrative. And going to answer that the way i like to answer these things is really through my direct personal ice parents because, as you all know here, there have been so many rumors that have swirled around this case at the time it happened and in subsequent years, but i will tell you a couple of things that troubled me. There was evidence in the case, many things that were collected, the robo was used to tie him to the fence. Therefore a number of things that were collected by police. And one day Russell Anderson had filed an appeal, and it was within the specified guidelines under which you could file an appeal. And there were some questions i had about the evidence. I had someone here in laramie who accompanied me over to the Laramie Police departments. And we asked to see some specific pieces of evidence. And the evidence technician came out and explained to us that that evidence had been disposed of. Now, this was during a time which Russell Anderson could appeal. There are couple of questions that i had. So that trouble me that evidence had been thrown and a trash dumpster and gotten rid of before the appeal process was over. There was Something Else i have been told by some sources about something involving matthews used. And there were and there is the reason for me to name them, but a couple of officers that kept promising that i could, along with my partner at abc news, is backed issues. There were a series of excuses. No, we have moved offices. The evidence is in the back of the trailer. It was promised, and this was our minds that then went into years. It was really made clear that they would never let us look at matthews shoes. So there were a couple of instances like that that i found troubling. There were some records that were Public Records involving, for example, one of the suppliers. And every time i requested this shepard the few years after matthew, but it was someone that matthew had known from denver and was involved with. Every time asked to see the file which was a Public Record, there was an excuse as to why i cannot. Finally the judge here in laramie, i told him about it. He said to mothers no reason you can see that file. He walked into the file room, got the record, look at it to be sure there wasnt anything of the seal nature that i could not see and let me look at the record, and it did help. But there are no more roadblocks like that along the way. I can say it was conspiratorial in that a bunch of Law Enforcement people sat down and said lets not let him see this, within the the direction was going in and when i was looking at, and i think that they went out of their way to make it hard. Did you see any evidence where they threw away evidence . Not so much your investigation, but just the overall investigation, did you see anything, have any reason said feel suspicious about how the evidence was handled, not just what you were given, but how everything was handled . In this case i just mentioned the physical evidence, but there are other forms including statements of witnesses and statements of the perpetrators and participants. When Aaron Mckinny gave will was a recorded statement. Was really the one recorded statement that he gave. The transcript was 33 pages long and there was one mention of methamphetamine. End aaron line and said he is not been involved in methamphetamine for several months. One of the Police Officers said but you have been involved with it in the past and he says, yes. The subject was dropped. That was the one mentioned in a 33page convention, never brought up again. Just to say this, Aaron Mckinney was well known to Law Enforcement for his involvement with methamphetamine and drugs. So why wasnt methamphetamine pursue them put into the record . Any other questions . I am pretty much of the end of my questions. I did want to offer this. The book does delve into sensitive territory. I think sometimes we forget that as sensationalized as this was, after all, latest those someones child. And at the patterns we all taken life, whether they end up dealing drugs sometimes is not in the very flattering. The portrait that your writer matthew is not always the narrative that the National Media is established. You said you wanted this book not to set up you wrote this book not to set off a new round of controversy, but to prompt discussion. How has that succeeded . Well, i think that, again, based upon the experience i have had of traveling to every region of the country in connection with this book there has been a big appetite for really talking about it and talking about the complexities involved with it. And i think that, you know, we are always evolving and growing. I think that something as simple as that tv series breaking bad in the last five years has made the public more aware of what a methamphetamine is in a way that 15 years ago there were not. I think that and i am saying this is a gay man. I think that we need to be able to deal with complexities. We are a sham beings, just like everyone else. We suffer from some of the same things, difficulties and relationships, deal with alcohol and Substance Abuse and all these things. One reason the wrote the book is because when i looked at the Public Record and look at what the territory that other journalists of covered, look at the Laramie Project, Matthew Shepard was a conspicuous absence. The same few set of facts were repeated over and over. Interested in politics, human rights. He spoke a few languages, you know. The same basic set of facts were repeated over and over, and you are absolutely right. He is someones child. But, again, i go back to it, you know and i say this as someone looking back. This was a tragedy. It was a tragedy that affected many people. I have seen a lot of productive discussion in the body politic and larger around this book, but also in the Gay Community there has been a lot of discussion about it. I am happy that that discussion is taking place. At what point did you say to yourself, ive done a book here. In a what point did you say to yourself, im going to make a lot of people upset about one of going to write . Low, i knew that this would be controversial from the very beginning. I knew that going back to natural years, it was obvious when the New York Times magazine kill the story. Abc news will we were doing this we were besieged by activist organizations before the show ever aired. They wanted to come in and look at the the right to put on the air to give us feedback i knew that it would generate controversy. Led some corrective conversations that i was doing my job as journalist. Im out of questions. You got to read this point in everything, i guess the question after 12 years of pursuing all of this, where to from here. Is there more to be done . Is there more of the story you want to pursue . Has the book reached what he wanted it to be and what you hoped it to be . Basically what to you too heavily looking down the road that . This has been a steady process. October 1st another was a lot of reaction just to the idea of the bulky move four people had a chance to read it. Over the last four months the interest in the buck has been growing steadily. I am having a small amount of new material. There will be a new epilogue for the paperback Edition Comes out and the fall. The book at the same time will be published in england, austria, germany, japan. There will be another round of discussion taking place which will be in english language version in most places. There is talk of another power that will look at the new material that i have revealed in the book. I have been with this for a long time. The story means a lot to me, i am starting to get to work on new projects. You know, this was a long and winding journey. I am also a screen writer. I made documentary films and i am looking at a couple of new projects right now sort of deciding what is next. Have been reading screenplays and books, maybe adapting something. And, you know, there have been talk of documentarys. We will see. Where are you, glen . Come on up here. You can give us a good wrapup. One more question here. I want to say that the conclusion of this book is exactly the story that was given to Law Enforcement at the time of the crime. That is the story. From doc and his limo, Aaron Mckinny chauffeuring Matthew Shepard to the gay bars, drug purchases get down there, bringing them appearance selling them, that was all the story in town at the time of the crime. And it was not even addressed. It was overlooked. That is the crime. I have been on a no calorie diet for 30 years, but i am led to years of positive things about cal. You did a good jobs in the air for the guy. But if you knew the whole story you would have a different opinion. But we have of the worst county attorney in there now. [applause] well, then learn, i guess. If you dont know thirty years. Oh, is that right . Are you m. Nicholson . I am on nicholson. You pneumatic quite well. Matt is a super kid. I have known Matthew Shepard, the other boys. I served them drinks. I know that story was wrong. Asked my son, matt. He was managing a bar all the time. Well, what you just said is certainly true. It was that, the juncture between what i heard from many people in laramie about what this case was versus what the National Media said about it and what the president of the United States was saying about it. I felt it was my duty to investigate it because there was a great debt and at this juncture between what people in laramie were telling me and what the official story was. Well, you did a hell of a job. You came to the facts and a super conclusion. Thank you very much. [applause] [applause] we do have another question. One more question. Sure. [inaudible question] i moved here from new york city and the release said to love, my god to laramie. More gay hate crimes per capita on the streets of new york city. So i really appreciate you just getting of the seven clarifying it. As i am sitting in their is a lingering question for me about the factor of internalized of phobia and the fact that these two men you are reporting had a sexual relationship and that the boy who was killed was somebody that he had a sexual relationship with. While he had been violent with a number of people throughout the week and may be is just because i have heard this story for so long, but from the lingering question is, why is it the boy that he was so violent with was gay and had had a sexual relationship and have as internalized homophobia and maybe a shame play a part in the broom nature of this particular interaction . Okay. Well, in the book i really talk allows some of the complexities of barrons use use of his sexuality and identity. I cannot get inside his head in any kind of completely. Certainly we know that internalize telephone ba exists and it is, you know, there are many, many manifestations. But what i trace in the buck is a very specific sequence of the events that was related to where Erin Mckinney was, the people that he owed money to, what he was doing as far as his own use in the week prior to this and any one that really understands the chemistry and the psychology involved with methamphetamine will tell you that when someone has used math as long as Aaron Mckinney data and had been up for a week before this crime happened that this completely thats the profile of what is called mad rage are met induced psychosis. Certainly if he was bisexual was struggling with some of those issues. Aaron mckinney was seeking to rob 10,000 worth of methamphetamine, 6 ounces. There was a shipment coming into town and he believed that Matthew Shepard would be in possession of those 6 ounces and that is what was driving and that night. Yes. Oh, i am sorry. Jane woodman. Where are you . To wrap up, you, as a journalist, have learned many lessons. I think that it is worth just mentioning will we in diamide journalists, will we as consumers of the news, what lessons are there for us to learn as things like the trade on margin that whole scenario ms and is becoming increasingly politicized, increasingly more axes to grind. What should we as consumers of the news take away from this. Taken over ten years to bring this truth to light. Any thoughts on what we should do as a journalist . Yes. I want to hear them. I think there are alternative that help the balance the Mainstream Media like the New York Times. Hot air, bright spots, they are all are alternatives. And i am sure that they dont always they have axes to grind all so. I do think that the fact that the New York Times and a lot of these a warning dailies are losing prescriptions subscriptions shows that people are losing faith in the reporting. I just wish you would comment on what you think the consumers of news should learn from just this well, what i do is look at many different shows sources. I dont go because of my political interest orientation. I look across the board. There are people that i can disagree with politically. For example, i consider Andrew Sullivan to be a friend, probably 80 percent of the time i disagree with them politically but i know that he does his homework and is a serious journalist. I try to seek my information from many different places. The New York Times tells me it is true that is not been me now believe its true. I look for a variety of stories and different kinds of reporting, different kinds of reporting. I will say that, you know, my history is my own political sympathies have tended to be on the left. In this case with the sheppard case this is a case where there was a very clear liberal orthodoxy. And of that many people question my intent, but it is not the reporting. It is just how dare you. Well, you can tell after this why i wanted. When i was then of breath of fresh air. Having worked with young people for 32 years, you know, we are looking at what has happened that night. The other side of that, we have our drug problem that is out there. You know, it is one of those things. So our young people are at risk. I need to by would like you to realize that the problem is still out there. I just would like and the whole idea on this thing was to be better informed. I think after tonight we are. Want to thank steven for being here. Can i just say one other thing. I would like to think plan as well. Trudy and mary, tell my, jaycee, and also dave and the staff here for helping to put together this event. I have one final thing i want to say a promise to keep it short. Im not an apologist for Russell Anderson, 01 of want to tell you as i have followed and tracked this man over the past 12 years. I attended when he got his gdi went to his graduation in prison in nevada. Ive visited dead prison in virginia. I just want to give you a lower part because you will find this of this paper. Russell hendersons record over the last 12 years, 13 years is spotless. He has been going to college in prison, and i have seen his grades and theyre straight days. He has been working in prison. Here is someone who has to life sentences. He is classified as medium security, which is virtually unheard of for someone convicted of these type of types of crime. I mention this because as a gay man the way in which this case ultimately resolve itself, there was politics involved, and it is easier to see this now. I dont mean to secondguess, but what i want to say is, the tragedy that happened here was not just matthew. A was a horrible crime here, heres a person, i can tell you as a gay man if i thought Russell Anderson was somewhat like or hate gay people i would not be visiting him. I visited him in prison three of four times a year. I have interviewed deputy wardens to my interview social workers that have that any group, and i will say i have had prison administrators say to me, this young man does not belong here. So if i can leave you with something i would like you to think about this about the way in which a tragedy like this ripples out over time and what the impact of that is