Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On Blood In The Water 20161023

The National Book Award Finalist released this past week and four of the nonfiction authors appeared or will appear here on booktv. Next heather alabama thompson sits down with National Book awardwinning author tana if to discuss her book blood in the water. About the attica prison uprisings. Good evening im director of roosevelt house and on behalf of the president jennifer rab in the room tonight im delighted to welcome all of you here to the home of franklin d. Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt one ever them as you know since were going to be talking about gubernatorial administrative work, of course, new york state governor bhefer became president and his wife was conscience of the empire state is just as she later became the conscience of the country and the world who was never afraid to confront challenging and uncomfortable issues like the one were going to discuss this evening. Even if it meant confronting her own husband. Privately, of course, because this was the 130s. I think you all know as well the history of this amazing space for those of you who come regularly. You know it, it was originally a wedding gift froong linn and eleanor to his wife sarah that came to the newlyweds with only one stipulation sarah herself who moved in and stayed in residents while in new york city for the next 40 years. While the houses and technically there were two of them had separate doorways one on the tbrs sarah one on the east and eleanor salas are a quickly sliced through the dining room which you will be visiting later during our reception extensionively as she put it to make it accommodating for dinner parties but eleanor would remember had the run of the house and appeared on fdr that eleanor side of the house as eleanor put it at the most unexpected times. After sarah died fdr put the house up for sale and what jennifer called best real estate deal of the century sold it to Hunter College cutting original asking price by 10,000 and donating another thousand dollars to buy books for the student library. Later it became and long served as Interface Center for girls of hunt or and then the great transforms began to raise armed with ingeniouses plan by architect to rehabilitate and transform roosevelt house to the Public Policy institute. It is today for Public Policy student and human right student some here todays this evening for this program. By the way, for students of architecture those interested to space were sitting in tonight was carved out of what were the old kitchen spaces. Just the word here about one gubernatorial connection which i offer as a kind of proud full disclosure in the presence of my old colleague mike klein here tonight both of us proudly served in administration of yet another governor mario cuomo and its instructed to remember of the listens of attica or through his own enate patience, humanity and negotiating ability mario cuomo was able to face a prison uprising of his own in his case at sing sing seven days after sworn in governor in 1983 with a strikingly different result. Hostages were taken nandz were meads made but no blood was shed and there was the memory from one to two. Share. So lets turn the clock back 45 years from today, roosevelt house it was restored just to be a forum for this kind of discussion. So the event were gathered to reproach is, of course, the attic uprisings of 1971 itses, its meaning and truth and consequences of its debtly suppression. So focus on these truths our special guest tonight is author Heather Ann Thompson a detroit born, bred, and base scholar, teacher web and activist who scerved on history faculty of unc temple, and most recently and currently university of michigan. They offer many important and awardwinning articles on criminal justice and mass incarceration for the New York Times, Time Magazine and the atlantic, she previously authored a major book on politics, labor, and race in modern detroit. For the last ten years shes been researching and writing this exhaustive definitive and universally acclaimed new book. Blood in the water within attic of prison uprising of 1971 and its legacy which takes us back to the trigger point for the deadly events of 1971 and the response by guards and government. And to accomplish this deep dive Law Enforcement veterans, former government officials with medical examiners, journalist, the list is astonishings including along the way subject the name as tom wicker inerr hermon gail was here tonight, and we wok her. Let me also acknowledge one of our own who played a role in this examination period of the upis rising our own upriding Board Chairperson of the new york city at the time of attica is mentioned in the book and was quite a critic of the book and i mean will welcome bill. The result of that ten years heather has really been worth the wait, the time hailed the book as remarkable all bill that helps us understand why one group of prisoners rioted and how many others shared the cost. We are by the way the new last 48 hours is that fittingly it has just been named to the long list of no, maam nominee for National Book award for the united states. [applause] that is National Book award night because were so proud that joining doctor thompson in conversation tonight will be the distinguished and really beloved writer code, mcarthur grant genius who is 2015 book between the world and me was not only a number one best seller but the winner of the 2015 National Book award. Mr. Coat served kurpghtly as Senior Correspondent for the atlantic, hes both a cultural had critic and cultural force and were honored to have him here at roosevelt house. [applause] before we start a built of housekeeping or guest will engage in a confers of about 45 minutes. Following which they will take questions from the audience there shall cards on your seat. So if you have a question at any time, you know, after the proceedings get underway write it down. Pass it to the pash aisles and well have aids patrolling to collect them and mr. Coats will be giving, delivering your questioning as well. If we end all of you are invited to free freedom room and celebrate Heather Ann Thompson at a reception and book signing so all of that out of the way. History and bookkeeping everything please join president rab and me to welcoming coats in conversation with he wanter ann thompson. [applause] [inaudible] i guess it will ring. But nobody will call in and ask me if im picked up aluminum foil or dog [inaudible] i called my dad today. I have a e not finished book already about talked about that. But i have a great reason i havent finished this book it is a deeply painful agonizing book to read. If i was in the cafe when i went 110th and broadway hungarian bakeries and i was reading it and i texted heather and i think i have the text here because heather didnt understand qhat hell i was actually saying. But i texted her and i said she had this is brutal, my god. And i got back a question mark. And [laughter] what it is additionally attica is in many ways responsible for my presence here today. When i was a child, my dad has as i saw it awful tradition of fasting on thanksgiving. And i couldnt like who would do that . I mean, not just fasting but on the day that everybody else talks about how much theyre going to eat and how much you know foods theyre going to eat an had a fasting on thanksgiving it was the worst holiday i hate thanksgiving leaving the country this year. So thank you going to thanksgiving dirp. Part of that was a conversation we were always had my dad would say listen, on this day you know that conversation is gorging and stuff, you know we need to remember the true history of thanksgiving and what happened to native americans but tradition began a couple of years or year cor so after attica where nick gregory you know this . Oir okay. Of course you know this story. Because you wrote the book. [laughter] so asked about thanksgiving and in memory of whappedz on attica at attica, and i dont know how many of you actually stuck with it but my dad did to this day and i said pops youve got to read this. You know, my dad hes a big, you know, used to be a Research Librarian into private scholarship and youve got 100 page of foot notes youre going to love this and actually youve got to im giving this before and there was no footnote and got on me about that. I dont know where this is not mention the colleague going to love this and i told him this and he wanted me to tell you that youre a hero. He really, really wanted me tell you that and he said i dont know if i can get through this because of the pain of it. You know, my dad was in black panther around when this happened there was huge deal and i always tell people it shall but i have [inaudible] my dad was in priers right it is activist it was the story of attica that really pushed him after he left Panther Party to stay involved i always tell people my earliest memory of black men in jail and i mean that to be true my dad taking me into the prison to see folks and you know he alwayses, you know, in his radical policy to the day identified it as, you know, the headquarters you know the see seetital and what he said at the time it was mostly you know, only you know folks, you know, radicals from saying something horrible you know had went wrong and he felt very much like folks hadnt believed and i told him but thats why you know you shout. Thats why you scream even if youre outside the mainstream because you never know when history will come around 45 years later. You know, and people verify you know poem that were out of the nation with the time that turns out it was right so i sliewt you for this book even though im halfway through. It does incredible. Thank you. I, you know, being half through i have a top of question sots few here that are not particularly familiar with attica can wees just get, you know, a very about quick, you know, summary of what happened and why its important. So sure. 1971 in the nation were bursting at the seems because there have been a real intensification of policing and intercities across the the nation but particularly in new york city. Buffalo, rochester and attica was filled with 2400 men overwhelmingly black and port eerie can. But also white men and the conditions were horrendous. They were you know, one paper can last a month. Two quarts of water to do everything in. Wash, clean yourself. Drink. Medical care so bad that prisoners were not only dying in attica but were permanently disfigured from lack of care. And this is the context that the men in the arts started talking about civil rights in the prison. Human rights in the prison, and, of course, many of these guys had also come from streets that had you know been very active particularly rebellion in philly in 64 and rochester in 6 4, and they began to ask per help. Initially through the system writing letters to their state senators and begging the commissioner of correction to do something. But nothing was really done and, in fact, what was done was a great daily of more repression anyone who was caught having the letter asking for help would be thrown to keep lock which meant you were thrown in yourself for indefinite periods of time you couldnt get out, and its in that context that people Start Talking across political line. Start talking across racial shrine and a lot of spanish in attica and usually somebody in the yard trying to translate between the groups so that everybody can understand what everyone else was saying, and then to make a very long story short, they eventually erupt actually, the initial initial moment that is probably caused by a management decision wasnt particularly planned on part of the prisoners but it becomes very important human rights rebellion 1300 mental gathered together in one part of the prison. They elect representatives from each was sell blocks to speak per them. They ask for observers to oversee negotiations with the state so they feel they can be heard. One of them is herman who was mentioned his lovely wife is here, and really insisted that the media come in. That thrrm Television Cameras because the problem with prison is that nobody ever sees what really goes on inside and these guys are very committed to shining the light on the inside of the walls, and, of course, they had been inspired themselves by other price physician that had happened new york city jail system. And for four days, negotiated really intensely with the state for these basic human rights. And yes, and then one of the most briewlings brutal events i would argue in the 21st century and i think thats part of what youre alludings to most difficult to read. So for four days as these guys are negotiating with the state and as the Television Cameras are rolling meanwhile outside of atticas walls virtually every battalion of of the new york ste police were coming to attica enassembling outside as well as Corrections Officers from all of the prisons in the surrounding area. And for four days, they didnt sleep. Didnt eat much. But were really feds on a diet of rumor and rumor of inmate atrocity on the inside which incidentally my Research Indicated was not coincidentally coming from the fbi. One of rumor was that these guys standing hostages at attention and if they falter shoot them in the head. They didnt have tabuns which will become important to the story so that i amassing and it is becoming clear to observers that any moment the state is going to come in, actually now i understand that they were determined to come in from the very beginning this idea that negotiation might have netted something. I mean, i think there were certainly very good hearted people and worked hard to make it happen but at the high fest levels they were bight their team and i would argue would have come in sooner had it not been for oarvers in that kind of stalled things i think. And then suddenly on the fifth day, they decided theyre going to come in with the new York State Police. And all of those armed Corrections Officers despite the fact that when you say armed really like not like arm wed clubs right so these guys for four days were passing out weapons indiscriminately nobody was writing down serial numbers. I have photographs of them passing these guns out of the back of books and later the i discovered paperwork deathing that actually some of the troopers does start to write down the numbers and they were told to rip it up basically. We dont want to know who has which gun. Also personal weapons personal weapons shotguns, deer hunting rifles, and then rnls literally ammunition that is banned by the course. Thats right. Thats right. In that moment when it is clear theyre going to imlom p come in internal paperwork restreeldz me that they actually deliberately did not give an ultimatum in other words the language that was used that morning was no different than it has been on my other morning before this attack began, and everybody told rock material include people only the Observers Committee who were republicans very supportive of rock material said if you come in like this it is going to be a massacre, and we now know that if he was told if we come in here leak this were going to kill some of the who is had tadges, and he said were going to do it anyway. And so they came in, and right before they came in and i think it this is another big piece of it they first september over helicopter dumping one helicopter that was dumping gas over the yard, and i share this story with people because when we think of tear gas, we think of gas. Its you know a gas in the air. And maybe if you cover your mouth you could gown avoid it or something. But it was actually a powder and it was clinging to peoples skin, and in their nasal passages so everyone is retching and falling to the ground. Largely immobilizing and limited footage you can see the cloud of smoke come over and everybody gets mowed down thats when they came in with the guns. We talked early probably talking about the mostly sharing my emotions on the book and one of the questions does this qualify as lynching and you answered question and a helpful term that its a militarized lynches why dont we think of it that way . This story dinner this country as i was reading the book that i was a it also you mention for instance the paranoia that was happening inside turns out to not be true. All of that you know he insistent on hiding identity of people all of this literally what taking dentures from people that thermation souvenir all of this has a hallmarking of a. Lynching. It is the brutality when everybody is sub dude within 15 minutes i would argue they were subdued when gas came through but certainly shot six and seven times and as one of the prisons says tieflt book all i can see was blood in the water its that moment that the real brutality begins, and in it is extremely reminiscent of lirchling for a number of reasons. One, it is deeply racialized even the prisoners with white skin because they have stood with the black prisoners. Racial coming at them and tongue waiting torture that goes on throughout that really days, weeks, months. But false like a lynching, they stood out in front of the world because remember the media is here from everywhere at this point and say after their officer have killed who is acknowledges prisoners prisonert throats of the hostages and not only that they have castrated one of the guards. And stuffed it test calls in his mouth and we saw it happen one actually said we have film of it, of course, this goes out on front paifnlgt New York Times, l. A. Times all of the a. P. Paper and small newspaper in america, but what it does on the inside is it touches off a fury that one that you know we think of, you know, the race riot of the 1900 where has it is unstoppable. One prisoner, frank, big black smith it was laid on a what all of these guys were stripped neighborhood, bleeding no medical care laid on a table, a football is put under his neck and hes told after six hour was laying there torpturing him and beating him and drop this football were going to kill you, of course, you know he believe it is. Hes just seen so many of his patriots killed, and you know another prisoner that i talk about in the book jomo shot so many times and while one of his friends is trying to carry him to some measure of safety. They shoot him for trying to help nieces so why dont we think of it that way i think in part it goes to the cor of the administration that we dont think about what happens to people when we put them behind intoors retake a prison in this fashion somehow what happens to them, you know, it could be a lynching why because they couldnt be real victims. I want to get to this question. I said this to you watching is in chicago. Across the nation not a new we havent new technology that allows people to hear but nots new events. And we are witnessing a real assault one Police Legitimacy and i want to be clear about what im say its not the evidence that it is making a faulty received revealing it. Actions have been going on for a long time but its left me i look at for chicago and when you have, you know, cops executing somebody and they come in together to creates a story said we didnt execute him at all and you see this story repeated over and over again like supposed to accord a certain amount of respect and after a while becomes no in many ways you are no different than any other force in the nation and i think you kind of see that in attica. Like i mean thats one of the media is courting them respect we believe that you dp. Because we know authorities told us this. So when media sold that the prisoners have killed hostages nobody asked for corroboration. Nobody questions the idea that a black prisoner would have castrated a white guard with just his just , of course, and therefore, pends up on the front page. But this issue of Police Accountable i think runs throughout the. For me personally one of the most Important Research finds so finds out why it was at kat ka that you have this event that quickly does become clear to the nation that the police have, in fact, killed not only the prisoners but who who who who h2 prisons in attica but not one member of Law Enforcement so part of this book is the story about how that happens and the extraordinary levels that state and federal government go to to present the police and police from the very beginning are removing photographs, licing if film, indeed i think in one of the most damming pieces of evidence in the book in days after this retaking the governor is essentially per he has to have an investigation this is kind of a disaster. Theres bodies everywhere as one doctor said it resembled a story war painting inside of attica, and so he does appoint someone to investigate attica. But what no one knew it was that within days after this retaking and three more times in secret meetings at rockefellers pool house, that new York State Police are there. The architects of the retaking who were then allowed to investigate the retaking. The head of the attica investigation is at the meeting. And theres a whole cast of characters and over these meetings they essentially get their stories straight and you just quickly understand that theres so many layers to this protection and the last thing ill say about that in terms of it works sort of been theres a beninety neglect part of had this abuse too because brothers at attica and hostages are not silent. They are telling their story. Theyre saying we are being beaten in here. Were being abused. Somebody help us. And there are heros and heros in this book that try top help but attica lawyers in particular. But every level from low test level workmans composition official to state senators to the governors to the presidency of the united states. To the Justice Department who is hearing these stories and decide not to intervene to the Supreme Court of the united states. The only one who somes to want to intervene is good mare cial and everybody else says no thank you at every level everyone just turned away. Like what i mean i have this all of the time questions about like our democracy and you literally have a president ial level on down. I mean, i think you know you can stop me if im going too far but at the least a conspiracy to cover up a lynching. I dont know thats too far to say that. I think that you can actually come out of my mouth and evidence to demonstrate that thats actually what happened. We dont lose, you know, under a military hunta. What does that say that stole many of our include institutions that you can build too. Youre so quick you know to not only allow us to happen but quickly turn the page i guess asking how much truth you know can folks actually handle. How much you know actuality create ours take . In essence what youre rlg getting at is the question of the again this who is the who is a legitimate if i victim ando can have that manhood and attention put on them so muhammad writes about the criminalization of blackness in his brilliant book, and he make it is a lot of profound points but one of them is, you know, certainly during prohibition as prisons began to sell with more and more white folks as we began to see prisoners as white and people with power were white, people were kind of appalled at what they saw and wanted to roll back pennals change a lot of those laws so fund mentally were still really talking about is what it was about not prisoners but these prisoners tharn not legitimate, not human in the eyes of the state. And why qowld it be that when it combs to prosecution, their lives were not valuable and i must say on that point if youll allow me you know of the controversies in this book i think is that theres a i mean, im a historian and theres a chapter on the statess investigation of attica and i talk about who the state believed in Law Enforcement had committed crimes at the attica. I dont say they committed a crime at attica. I sap again im a historian recould wanting what states knew when they knew it and what they thought or what they believed and ive taken some degree not criticism but focused a lot of attention on that. Why would you name these guys after 40 yearses . And what i tuned so remarkable is that nobody has if ever once asked me why did i name the names of the prisoners at attica who also were accused of saying 62 of them that they did not do and i name their names because again the state was accusing them of such and no one ever says what about their families . Are you not tarnishing and so again its a question of who has the right to right to be innocent in the eyes. Penchts i just find this infuriating it is absolutely , you know, when you read what actually happened, you know, and folks if feel like you should and again didnt do anything that you as a historian should be involved in the coverup. But you should be part of it and i just right. [laughter] like that that valley, really hard to deal with. You know one of the significant things about this book is very, very interesting to me is, you know i feel one could have written a book just recounting what happened and promoting epilogue to what happened and maybe youll notice books like this that exist like that would be one way to write the book. But you tonight do that maybe about two fifths of the book is you know setting contact and what happened in attica why did you make that decision . Yeah well the book would have been a a lot shorter and editors saying maybe we should have considered that. But because whats so interesting to me about attica is we did have memoir accounts of what, you know, those days again everyone continued to speak up. And what we didnt know was what happened for the next 40 years that the survivors still to this day have not had an apology from the state of new york let alone any admission of responsibility that everybody i talked to for this book and i really i believe pretty much everybody at some point in our discussion had a breakdown. I mean as a historian one that is not equipped to deal with that. I wrote a piece for my historian were not equipped to deal with that kind of lived it trauma in the present are, and that told me something about the importance of the after story as much as the part about what brought people together in attica because, in fact, the afterstory i think, is what helps us to explain why once again today you and i are sitting here not only in the nation that incarcerates more people than any other on the globe. But that chicago is erupting and baltimore is erupting and you know, i mean, because its one of the reasons were here again is because of the coverup at attica and live about it and who was allowed to be a victim in it. Just i have to say this is a come peltingly written book, and i love historian but people often donts say that. [laughter] coif two questions and hope flit not been koand condescending here, but [inaudible] i want to say any book of this length and this size cant be established without amazing help from editors and, you know, helping me to figure out who are the key people to focus on and key stories and thats not me. But you know frankly as his tiern weve tacked about this. Were trained to footnote well and trained to Research Better than anyone i would maintain. But we are not necessarily trained in how to convey that. And inadequate of that and how do you describe the retaking without constantly using words like, you know, terrible or o horrific. So [laughter] how welcome to my world. Were not capturing it. And, of course, again so was tremendous inviting and help from folks that better help me with that. But thank you because, because in interestingly when this book was first you know i thought i would do it. I didnt even consider necessarily doing it as a trade. Even in the profession we dont often think about that. Meaning originally because my first book with cornell book press and with a new york story an might have seemed a little logical but the reality it was i wanted my grandparents to read it. I wanted someone to read it who you know i wanted everyone to read it. Because of the stories in it. And because i wanted the stories finally in one place and shouted out somewhere. O potessed to you know more a method with a history because i wanted people to read it because if we would have begun with this book argue it is [laughter] yes. No but i know enormous respect to my profession some stories they tell themselves and frankly the survivors told this story. Right. You know sitting i remember one time and i always show to people because for some reason stuck with me i visited widow of the one of the slain guards karl vallone ate sitting in her house and her family so tram tides by this event because many of the guard families and for if i didnt say this, the guards only are killed but swindled by state of new york but im in this living room and family is troyed bid one this and children commid suicide. Again the ripple of trauma and she was so she was overwhelmed by how could this have happened . How could they have come in and killed their own . But she wrote to william who was one of the attica observers and was very clear his allegiances were with prisoners and in the yard during negotiations and she wrote to him and she went in her back room and she brought out this letter that he had wrote back to her and it was just one of those moments where i just all kind of clked where stories are telling themselves because they two people from a different world as you can imagine are having a correspondents and both of them coming to same conclusion which is that the state was willing to take power at any cost rather than let these you know, in her words kind of the little people. But people without allowing anyone to change them and, you know. I dont know if that says it. But more more was a prisoner nift saw him today at an earlier event a book describing the first night in the yard are. And he said he this guy a friend in his yard Walking Around smiling, and he asked them you know, so how are you feeling and he say this is kind of in wonderment said i havent seen the stars 22 years. And that that is why its a narrative because those stories tell themselves. But to the problem of white supremacist to slaughter their own test to get that done. No theres no question, and that theme comes up so often. Even in the during the retaking in the graphics troopers are writing on the wall in the visit it is not 100 dead portion people to their knees but have already been shot and forcing them to get the white power salute. Very, very awesome. How the world did we not learn . You know, so many. But i i want to be clear that we didnt, we didnt learn them, it was very deliberate that we didnt learn them. Right. When the state of new york stands outside of this prison and tells world that the prisoners have killed the hostages, i really one cannot express an important moment this is because leading up to that, in this country we we were actuy down considering more community corrections. We were actually thinking about ways in which to humanize prisons there have been been lots of lawsuits to challenge brutality in prisons. And indeed on the eve of attica i looked at a lot of polls and people were sympathetic to the ideas that they need more training in general ordinary citizens ordinary to the idea that prisoners were deserving of human rights and in that moment not to put everything on this moment but this moment i think was really a pivot because overnight prisoners are barbaric theyre animals shea should get the Death Penalty for what they did at attica meanwhile it was plawrmt Law Enforcement that committed these deaths carried outs but yet that was where the nation sentiment went so we didnt learn what had really happened at attica but not because reasoned people could not have figured it out. We didnt learn it because the narrative was immediately taken over and every time the who whoe they were sued because state had come to their houses and given them checks and said mrs. So and so this will tide you over. Never told that if they cash 4 checks that hi had had elected a remedy they wouldnt be able to sue the state of new york. Thats their story to prisoner story. These abusive atrocities are going on and clear up in the the final civil case, the States Lawyers maintained it that this was nothing but a fraternity hazing. It hadnt happened it didnt happen. Flearn one of the most kind of chilling things to read is actually defense. The closing arguments in the defense of the final civil cases because of the utter denial that these people suffered anything. So the fact we didnt learn it is in part because the people who experienced it were not able to speak and cost of not learning it again i feel like prisons have become bigger, larger, more punitive, folks do much more time. Much more time in solitary. The event that i did this morning aside there were attica brothers there that had been in the yard but there were false a whole lot of young guys there that have come from attica and it was really one of the most kind of haunting experiences listening to them because it was so clear that the repression after attica lasted decades but the legacy i say in the book snot just repression. Because, you know, if weve been watching the news, i mean, in the last week yiement, i mean, 400 prisoners in florida. 400 in michigan people have been erupt aring again and theres been a series of work stoppages we dont note full extent of it because frankly we cant inside at the Public Institutions to know whats going on. Like this is a communist conspiracy. He is a warrior, but alls wild is this guy from wisconsin and works on the parole board and he believes these guys need to be listened to. If it wasnt for him i dont know if there would be negotiations. He is the one the allowed them in, but hes also frazzled and harried and he is one of these people between these poles of people who say no its not enough just to give me one more shower. The guys in the yard, and the state who he is literally pushing back at and who are calling for him to be resigned, to resign, and basically lawenforcement is sending him death threats. He is one of these guys that are very emblematic of the period. , trying to fix it and do the right thing but being between the poles where it was very difficult. I keep coming back to this question. I have to say i find myself, i think its pretty clear but i found myself pretty frustrated at various moments. You know its going to happen and you like come on man. Do you find yourself in moments like that we are actually frustrated, even though you know whats gonna happen. Right, one of of the stories that hes talking about, on their list of advisors, they have lifted them up as real heroes who will speak from them and they wanted somebody from the black Panther Party. Its not a very flattering portrait of bobby seal because he essentially comes into the yard and they been waiting for them and he doesnt want to endorse them, so he sort of does nothing and he turns on his heels and leaves. Its just one of these moments where its dashing with allusions but i hope what people feel is the unexpected. That one in it you know whose side you are on and then it gets a little more complicated. And one of the things that got me was this feeling of scale folks are driving around to Funeral Homes to make sure, i hate come back to this, but what are we supposed to think . These are the post people who are supposed to protect us. Certainly we are left today as were having these discussions with prosecutors and grand juries and police that the internal system is clearly flawed and insufficient. If nothing else it shows that at the closed society and yet the stakes are far too high to have that much responsibility. I dont think any of that is unfixable but its remarkable how we are still here and there so much discretion of what to bring to the grand jury and that the granger can hear heinous testimony and not indict. One of the things that that closed society. [inaudible] okay, so its its your time, any more questions all right. I like this. What surprised you most during and after writing the book. What did you least suspect to uncover. I think what i was most surprised initially is that as a historian, i assumed when i decided i wanted to write a book on on attica that i would go to the archive and asked for box number ten and folder number five and i would write the story that was shot number one but probably shocked number two was after a number of years of poking around i did have the tremendous fortune to come across a whole stash of records because it did show the inside of the attica investigation. Probably what is most surprising today, what i most grateful for is that the story resonates again for prisoner i wonder if even three years ago it wouldve resonated as it does now. Im very grateful for that because the stuff, according to what im saying hearing today, this this goes on all the time and yet the walls are high in the doors are closed and we dont see it. Can you tell us about the women in the story. Yes, oh my gosh, even, even though this is a facility that is all men and the observers are men, the reason we know so many of these stories is the attica lawyers, many of whom were devoted their entire life to making sure the stories were told and that the attica prisoners were defended and so women like Elizabeth Kane and Elizabeth Bank who are tremendous advocates for justice and then on the hostage side of it, the daughter of a slain guard, this became her life to make sure the story is told and that her activism really pushes the envelope to get the Attorney Generals Office today to start releasing records. They were with attica for 40 years and they make it happen. Who did not want to talk to you during your research . And or can you talk about the role. I feel like the only people who didnt want to talk to me were from the rockefeller administration. I was able to talk to troopers and pretty much someone from everyone of the groups that are talked about in this book except for people closest to rockefeller and i do regret that because i did have a lot of questions. Even the troopers, they committed so many horrors that attica but many were so traumatized that they come to court 40 or 30 years later and thats how we know the identifying badges were removed. I had a guy who was a Monroe County sheriff who after the 40th anniversary called me and for 40 years or whatever since then, holding on to the stories of what he witnessed these days. He just broke down. He dashed this was such a horrific event that the Law Enforcement, there were plenty who denied it all and they are in here too, but there were these pockets of heroes and heroines in the story. Did you contact any of the officers. No i did not but you need to understand this was not an oral history so youll notice it doesnt say that i interview people, its clear i had conversations with people and many of those people came into my life through the journey of doing the book. When i discovered who some of these people were, again, the state had felt had committed at crime attica, i was very worried about even trying to reveal that i had the documents because there had been such a concerted effort to not release those files. At that point, i just didnt raise the alarm that i had seen these documents more than anything else. So attending to those documents were those names. I dont know frankly whether anyone has tried to find them. Do you think anyone will be prosecuted for the atrocities . Thats an interesting question. Because theres no statute of limitation on murder, presumably there could be prosecutions. One cannot underestimate the damage that was done to the chain of command, the chain of evidence is what im trying to say. Its not impossible, but it would take the will, and, and we dont even have the will today to see through investigations in chicago, for example, but it would also coverups are very difficult, but i think that will always remain a question. I do think it goes to the heart of why those documents are so protected and why the police, every time there has been talk of opening these records, they have stepped up and been very active to not want these records opened. Forget the individual atrocities but the state itself might be held responsible and there might be some compensation yes, but its interesting you say that because at the end of the day, i think thats a chapter on the retaking which is the hardest to get through. Initially when you are in that chapter, its the theory of lawenforcement and that kind of brutality, but i think, i dont know what youll think, but by the end of the book, it seems the book, it seems so clear to me that the real responsibility is again with the state. Sending in people. By the way, one of the people, his brother is a hostage and he has been out there for four days arming himself. Who is responsible for that . Who is responsible for letting this happen, so at the end of the day, that is the stakes. What you think of the idea that it should be closed and turned into a museum . Attica should absolutely be closed. Yes. There are many new yorkers who share that view, who are working very hard to try to close it, and indeed, officials who have worked there and who know it intimately believe it should be closed. It is a trauma site and, by the way, if you walked in there today, it looks just as it did in 1932. It has not changed. When i was up on the catwalk of attica, you can still see the chips in the cement where the bullets went flying. This is a trauma site. To this day, trauma goes on in them so yes, it, it needs to be closed. How hard did you try to get in there . Extremely hard. I made many race request to get in there and the way i got in was very convoluted. I met some of the surviving hostages, one of the surviving i mean one of the slain officers son still works attica and so it was through him that i was able to get in and see the catwalk and he showed me this is where my father was killed and this is where the bullets were. Had it not been for that, and frankly, had i not not looked like i looked, i wouldve never gotten in there to see them. Are you aware of the reform for sunnis that was passed yesterday for them to apply and go to. [inaudible] i did see that. I think this is similar to the legacy of reaching into the humanity of the story and understanding that part of this process has got to be healing and part of it cannot be abuse. None of this process can be abuse. It has to be learning, healing, healing, education, recognizing that people in prison are people how are we doing on time . Okay. I love this question. Oh dear. No, youre fine. The question is, what happened to investigative reporting . Why dont you answer that. I just want to Say Something else, i think more journalist, even even journalists who are covering this president ial campaign should be more aware of the extent to which the american media, american newspapers have been a part of the atrocities that have been committed against africanamericans in this country. If people who are going into this profession think that theyre just being objective and dont understand the tradition in which they are working, it was so sad. I was not shocked at all to see a brass knuckle under, ten years ago with a rat, it happens all the time. Why isnt the New York Times calling something torture in one country and when the u. S. Does it, they call it something else. Agreed and i think attica shows a little bit of the behindthescenes of that. There are stories that when the presses told that prisoners have killed the hostages, i follow up on that little bit in the book because the question is, what was there any fallout when its very clear what happened. Its a very interesting response. Some of the reporters are furious and are at rockefellers door banging on it thing you lied, but of course part of it is their own guilt. One of the interesting stories that i just heard last week, and i wish i wouldve known this for the book, one of the most important attica reporters on the scene was john johnson and he stands out, if anyone has seen the eyes on the prize outside, he breaks down and he says they are killing people out there. Anyway, i was never able to find him. I kind of wouldve wanted to talk to him. He contacted me and he told me this fascinating story and he said when lies were told everybody rush to print and he refused and he worked for abcs and he lost his job. Not only that, the guy who then did try to do the right thing, and this i do write about, for one of the newspapers in new york, their own editor stepped in and said no, this is far too sympathetic to the prisoners. Lets find out, i want to know what were their crimes that got them there in the first place. How can this book impact or accelerate Prison Reform in the usa. I am grateful this book moves the needle, i would presume that it would, but i would be thrilled if it would move it even so far so that people read this and get a very different idea of who is it thats behind bars. The thing about the story is, you say attica and i think everybody pictures the worst of the worst. Even a word can denote such a brutal facility, the first people you meet in this book are 19yearold parole violators, cutting somebodys convertible top. Ld barclay was 21. I hope it destabilizes this idea of who was behind bars. There were some bad dudes in there but there were a lot of just drug diction and stealing because they shouldve had a drug addiction dealt with. Thats no different than today. If this stems a conversation about humanity and whose behind bars, im grateful that for that i just want to make sure i doubled down on this idea, i love historians, i really do. Its only because i read so much of what you do and people like me who are lucky enough to write for magazines and we get all of this attention, the fact of the matter is, we stand on some mighty mighty shoulders and one of the most beautiful things about this book is to see you standing as opposed to being in the archives, doing what you did but getting the credit that i think this book really, really deserves. I have literally leaned on, from my my own work in math incarceration, we have talked quite a bit and youve been great counsel for me and its an honor and a highlight to be here and be in conversation with you. [applause] i want to extend our thanks on behalf of the roosevelt house. I never thought youre talking about me or any historian. You dont have to do a disclaimer. If these curtains had been drawn tight, youve not only parted them, you have torn them down and let the sunshine and for that we thank you