Transcripts For CSPAN Capitol Hill Hearings 20130816

Nullification issues. Grid ands. Electric its former building, and a guest from the Pew Research Center in our america by the numbers serious. Series. Tomorrowon journal, and everyday day at 7 00 a. M. Eastern. To the whitete house 2016 coverage with senator amy klobuchar, democrat of minnesota. She will receive the beacon award for Hillary Clinton tomorrow at the annual wingding in clear lake, iowa. Live coverage of that event at 7 00 p. M. Eastern. Season two of first ladies, influence and image, begins monday, september 9 with a look at the life of Edith Roosevelt. All this month, encore presentations of season one. Each weeknight at 9 00 p. M. Eastern, from programs of every first lady from Martha Washington to ida mckinley. Tonight, Mary Todd Lincoln. [captioning performed bynational captioning institute] [captions Copyright Nationalcable satellite corp. 2013] born in 1818 in lexington, kentucky, mary todd grew up and lived to see her husband issued the emancipation proclamation 45 years later. A mother of four sons, she witnessed the death of three of those sons as well as her husbands assassination. Her life was filled with tragedy, but as lincolns political partner, she relished we focus onss. As the civil war years, one of the defining moments in our countries history, a look at the life and times of Mary Todd Lincoln, one of the most complex first ladies ever to live. Thank you for being with us for cspans serious. We invite two of our academic advisors. Our guests for this program. Rosalyn penn is a history professor at meredith and Morgan Richard nortonty. Smith, our other guest tonight, the director of five president ial libraries, including the Abraham Lincoln library in springfield, illinois. Thanks to both of you for being here. We willincoln start with richard is often viewed in broad strokes. Bouts of depression, criticism of her lavish spending and overly in gold indulgent mother. If you look at a more nuanced picture, what do you see . That is why we need to get 90 minutes, to begin to get at the nuances. She matters immensely. Has been called the Great American story, an integral part of the Great American story. Steven spielberg doesnt make movies about julia tyler or louisa adams. Mary todd lincoln remains someone who is symbolically divisive, perhaps. To some, a heroine, others a victim. She is a surprisingly contemporary figure as well. I like her because she is so complex. I say i like her. Elizabeth was her dressmaker and companion. She did not live at the white as a good deal of time. An africanamerican. Formerly enslaved, purchased her own freedom and was interviewed along with other women to become the first ladys seamstress. Or modess, as they called it. She made the most beautiful dresses. What do you learn about mrs. Lincoln through elizabeth i do know if you call it her narrative, her look behind the scenes. It gives you a very concrete sketch of the relationship she had with her for four years. Just reading what elizabeth tells you gives you an idea of how complex and hurt and victimized she was. It is the most intimate portrait we have of mary. We will begin our new lost nuanced image of mary lincoln. We all call her mary todd. But if we look at our wall of signatures, she signed her name mary lincoln. Where did mary todd come from . It was modern. She did not use it as i understand. A 20th century invention. Lincoln famously said, mocking the pretensions of his wifes family, gone are the time en the todds needed one d. God only needed one d and the todds of kentucky needed two. A thousand times she heard that joke. Hes 6 foot 4, shes 5 foot 2 if that. He had a habit of introducing themselves as the long and the short of it. Another joke she probably endured more than enjoyed. These programs work because they are interactive and we will get to phone calls. You can also go to the Facebook Page or tweet using 1860, as the. Lection is won at that point, there were 31 Million People in 33 states. Although 11 states were to break off soon thereafter to form the Confederate States of america. 36. 6 growth since 1850. Continuing to grow at an enormous pace. 3. 9 million slaves, 12. 7 of the population. The largest cities were new york, philadelphia, and that was, and baltimore. The country Abraham Lincoln inherited. They arrive at the white house. Set the scene for the election and how tumultuous politics were. The political process had broken down. There were four parties that ran in 1860. The Democratic Party that was the one truly National Political organization split into northern and southern wings, divided over the issue of slavery. Stephen douglass, lincolns longtime rival and at one point romantic rival for marys hand is the democratic nominee from the north. Vice president breckinridge is the southern democratic hig party. The w nominated someone named john bell from tennessee, middleof theroad to support the constitution platform. That left this new party, the republicans, who were defined as being antislavery, but not radically antislavery. They were all about containing the spread of slavery. Lincoln along with 40 of the vote, the news of his election reached the states almost immediately to secede. Firste white house that the lady inherited had been the domain of harriet lane, who was much beloved in washington. Really admired for her social skills even as the country was fracturing. New was the view of the first lady, mary lincoln, as she came to the white house . Historian Catherine Clinton said that in one of her biographies, she broke the elite virginia scheme of things. Many of the congressional wives at some of the women that were very important during the Virginian Times were resentful. They lampooned them. Lincoln and her. The sad thing was, she was a very intelligent and highly educated woman from the family in terms of what you consider wealthy and good families. But they treated her very badly. The other thing that might have hit her is that washington was a swamp. Disease ridden. In many ways. When i came to washington, it was mosquitoridden. That was not 150 years ago. I am sure she had a difficult time dealing with that. She complained about how drab and worn the white house itself was. Some of the furniture was back to the days of dolly madison. She had a lot to worry about. If you think of the repercussions of this woman arriving from kentucky, referred to as the republican queen, mocked by people that do not know her and willing to assume the worst about these banquets, incolns, backwoods l that puts a chip on her shoulder even before she arrives in the capital. It might begin explain some of her shopping, some of her preoccupation with fixing up the white house, for example. And we have a quote from her, her rationale for why she spent so much money on her own attire. I must address myself in this attire because people who scrutinize every article i wear with curiosity. The fact i have grown up in the west subject to more searching observation. When she interviews Elizabeth Keckley, she asks how much she will charge for her dresses. Keckley says, i will be reasonable. They came to an agreement. My theory is that she wanted a lot of dresses but could not afford to pay lavishly. On her budget, she was able to get what she wanted because keckley agreed not to overcharge her. Paint a portrait of what life was like in the Lincoln White house as a Family Living there and the public using the space. It was astonishingly open to the public. In the middle of the great civil war that is raging, twice a week, the president would throw open his office and people could line up as long as they could wait for his Public Opinion badge. These were mostly jobseekers. Mrs. Lincoln, the children finessed themselves around these folks. The two boys at the beginning, of course. Willie was 10 years old when they arrived, and his younger brother. Robert have got off to harvard. There was another brother that they lost years earlier in springfield. Mrs. Lincoln looked upon the white house very much as a symbol of this nation. They took seriously the responsibilities. As the woman responsible for the appearance of the house, remember that this was a time when the country was coming apart at the seams. The symbolic value of americas house is even greater. In some ways, she took the same view of the white house. This network produced a documentary on the white house and we visited the lincoln bedroom. We will show you that next to show you the kind of spending that mary lincoln did on the furniture. It dates back to 1861, bought by Mary Todd Lincoln as part of white house refurbishing. 8 feet long, 6 feet wide, made of carved rosewood. The lincoln bed with a purple and gold and lace. Victorian decorating. We have later photographs with the bed still dressed the way that she dressed it. It is this bed bought by mary lincoln that holds the key to understanding the lincoln familys time here. It was one of mary lincolns many extravagant purchases when she began a campaign to redecorate this entire building. She spent so much money, and he flew into a rage and said it was a stink in the nostrils of the American People. She was dying flubdubs for that damned old house. In 1862, lincolns middle son died after a bout with typhoid fever. Mary never went into the room or looked at the bed again. Willies death lincoln took to the window and let her look across the river at a Mental Institution. If you dont get a hold of yourself, you will have to be put there. That was her time to absorb it. By contrast, it would hole up the week he died just to grieve. How they handle their grief goes to how we see them today. In the case of mary, it unhinged her. The final blow. The war melded the disparate elements of lincolns personality and his grief. His loss of willie morphed into the nations sense of loss. Millions of homes throughout the union. It was a different interpretation. Congress allotted her 20,000, four years later, they allotted 125,000 for refurbishing. She did not have enough money to spend. How could she have spent some much if they only allocated 20,000 . Was it all on that one bad . She overspent the 20,000 by about 6,000. There was a war going on. It is part of the legend and the myth. The outofcontrol shopaholic. A political aspect of that, how did the country react to her extended mourning when there were so many sons of mothers dying on the battlefield . She basically disappeared for over one year. Her social life ended for over a year. She ordered the marine band to stop playing concert on the white house grounds, maybe they could move to lafayette park. Her grief was too great. She indulged herself even beyond the standards of the day. Her compatriot was Queen Victoria that would spend the rest of her life grieving over the loss of prince albert. What brought her out of her grief . She was continuing to be vilified. Her son, robert, who was really a disappointment in the long run, had her incarcerated and sent into a Mental Institution. She decided, i am going to get out of here. She was able to mobilize to get her out of the Mental Institution. I dont think she ever really recovered from the loss of willie. It was not just willie. At the loss of edward, her husband, tad. And the loss of her mother that sent her to springfield in the first place. Her life is shattered by loss. Shadowed by loss. Tell me how she served as the first lady to the president. Her intuition about individuals is more accurate than that of her husband. Does lincoln listen to her . Think that she tried to advise him but his advisers did not want her interfering. That was definitely the case when he was dying and they to took her from the room and would mourn, her in to which was a traditional thing in her culture. The wife stays with the husband until he dies. They robbed her of that. Gary robinson asks, did mary lincoln create enemies out of social rivals . Who was her main antagonist . She had a number of rivals. Kate chase, the daughter of the secretary of the treasury made no secret about wanting to replace lincoln in the white house. Kate was quite the belle of the ball. It is safe to say that mrs. Lincoln had no great love lost for kate. Part of the legend, and it is accurate, the stories of her accompanying the president to the battlefield near the end of the war. She lost it. The reason the grants did not go to fords theater was because julia grant did not want to risk having another confrontation with this unpleasant woman. What did the staffing of her . They liked her. Only four of the staff remained when the lincolns came to the white house. They brought in new staff, primarily freed blacks. Those that were interviewed talked about her in a very positive way. She got along well with them because they were the ones that helped raise her after her real mother died. Lincolns personal secretary did not use the best descriptions of her. As a young man, they have their own reasons to resent. They both had nicknames that the secretaries used to refer to them. Outside of washington, what was the perception of the first family . That is a great question. If you read the press of the day, there was a considerable amount of criticism. If she had been more press conscious, we know how much time she spent visiting soldiers and hospitals. Writing letters to soldiers that were unable to write themselves. Taking food and gifts. And she never took reporters along with her. If she had been a little bit more p. R. Conscious, who knows what it might have done . The press followed her into every store they went into. That is what they reported, those kinds of things. Ron, youre on. Go ahead, please. You have indicated that there continues to be great controversy among historians and biographers over the lincoln marriage. The first school of thought was initially presented in a biography by his law partner based on his postassassination interviews with the multitude of lincolns, colleagues, neighbors, servants, etc. They reinforced the view that she was a domestic hell on earth with frequent outbursts with multiple instances of thrown objects including a piece of fire would that resulted in her battered husband having a broken nose. The other is presented as an appealing love story that reflects the deep skepticism over the veracity of the informants. About the super abundance of evidence to the contrary for both the prepresident ial and a president ial periods. Scholars have given more edence to her written as the herndons testimony. This is culminated in the 2008 biography. In the interest of time, do you want to know which they think is more correct . One more thing i want to add. James mcpherson criticized the relentless hostility towards the lincolns which marred the image. My question is, what is your assessment of the depiction of mary lincoln and what is their assessment of the Motion Pictures portrayal . Are you familiar . Michael is hostile to mary, certainly amassed a great deal of evidence to support his view. Eleanor and franklin people, and they are pretty much abraham and married people. Mary people. There are people that will not set on the same stage at scholarly symposiums. They are so committed to one or the other and how passionate these historians feel. Abraham seemed committed to mary. And that is the ultimate test, in some ways. I wonder if he has read Catherine Clintons biography of mrs. Lincoln where she engages him. You have to really look at the reasons why people write biographies or books. He was angry. And later took it out on mary. From what i have heard, you have to look at the motives behind the books. I asked what you thought of the modern portrayal. It was wonderful precisely because it transcends all of it is, to me, the most lifelike portrayal, not only of mary but of the marriage that ive ever seen to ever seen. I agree. From mary lincoln about her own view at the public perception, i seem to be the scapegoat for both the north and the south. We will show you next, another video. A woman at her summer cottage not very far from the capital to call the soldiers home. President lincolns cottage was a seasonal home for the lincoln family. Mary lincoln really pushed for the move out here to the soldiers home because she thought it was a place for her family to have more privacy than at the white house. We are in the mary lincoln room which is not part of our typical experience of the cottage. We call it the mary lincoln room because when they moved here in the summer of 1863, she is involved in a pretty serious carriage accident. Some believe the carriage had been tampered with and this was an early assassination attempt. When she suffered that accident, the drivers seat separate from the carriage and the horses are startled at take off, she had to leap out of the carriage in order to save herself. She suffered a head injury. She is treated at the white house, and she comes out to the soldiers home to make a recovery. Not only is it the most isolated of the bedrooms, but it is the only one with windows allowing for better crossbreezes. In 1862, there is the imperative of having a more private place to mourn and grieve after the death of willie. Mary lincoln was going about the traditional cultural and social expectations of a woman in morning and felt like she could not do it as effectively at the white house. For her, there was a personal imperative to come out to this home to grieve the loss of her son. One of the best documented events that actually took place is a seance that was hosted out here after the death of willie lincoln. Noah brooks writes about that account. Lincoln felt that mary was being taken advantage of and that she might be subject to blackmail. He asked for some of his colleagues and friends to check out the situation and see if they could figure out what the medium is doing and figure out how to make the noises he was claiming were spirits. Here at the soldiers home, he recounts noises they were hearing in when the lights turned on, they were able to prove he was a fraud. It does not seem that she was aware that she was being defrauded. After it was revealed this man was a fake, she was quite embarrassed by that. And there was an attempt to conceal or cover up the incident. Whenever she writes about this place, she talks about how much she was looking forward to coming out here. She sought as fulfilling her dream of what her family would experience in washington, d. C. Even though death and of the war were surrounding them, it gave them a little bit of respite from the chaos of Downtown Washington d. C. It is available for public tours, put it on your list of out of the way spots, a time capsule for history. You were visibly wanting to react to the spiritualism. This is in some ways the lincoln presidency in miniature. There is a school of thought that says her condition worsened after that very severe head injury that she experienced. The date is significant, july 2, 1863. The second day of the battle of gettysburg. The president s attention is focused elsewhere. Gettysburg and vicksburg, he did not pay as much attention to his wife. Is there speculation that the carriage accident was an assassination attempt . After the election, there was a document to the assassination attempt the Pinkerton Service saved them from. There was a constant threat on the lives of these people. That stress we should take into account. She was living through all of that. It was a horrible time to be in the white house, i would think. We are in the midst of a fiveyear marking of the civil war events. We could not capture all of the tumultuous and significant events, but here are a few of them. 1861, the civil war began. 1863, they issued the emancipation proclamation. And as richard said, the gettysburg address. 1865, the thirteenth amendment abolishing slavery is proposed. And april 9, the court house in virginia, the Confederate Army surrenders. It bookends the lincoln administration. You mentioned her unannounced visits to military hospitals. That goes to the controversy. There is a significant body of evidence that calls into question some of her conduct. For example, she was surrounded by people that very clearly were there to take advantage of her. She needed money. Never forget the fact that from the day she arrived there, she needed money. She needed money because she was 27,000 in debt to her dress makers. The president had to be reelected because if he was, she could keep those bills that day. If he was not, who knew what might happen . She was spending public funds on the white house proper. There were always people around her that were eager to serve their own interests by appearing to serve hers. There was a shady character by the name of henry, a chevalier of the New York Herald. He befriended her and the president s annual message to congress in 1861 appeared in the New York Herald the same day it went to congress. You get the picture. There was no shortage of people like the chevalier that were eager to line their own pockets or serve their own interests. I think the legitimate criticism of mrs. Lincoln has nothing to do with her mental condition. You can only feel empathetic for that. But legitimately, there is criticism about how she conducted herself in ways that were always a danger, if exposed, of embarrassing the president. It was the gardener that took the letter and gave it to the press. That was the story that was and then the gardener leaves for scotland. He must have been paid to do this. The other side of the argument is that it was the story they created to cover up what happened. Candace in fredericksburg, virginia. I am enjoying the show very much. I have a question regarding the broken first engagement and then they got back together a year andahalf later. Why do you think they broke up . And did they get back together . Did lincoln love her throughout their marriage . I will hold the question because as the program progresses, we will go back in time and answer your question, i promise. Lets take another from chad. My question is about Elizabeth Keckley. She served with mary lincoln, im not sure . She made dress as for a variety of people including jefferson daviss wife. Was very popular. She had her own shop. She did not live in the white house. She had her own residence, a place that she rented. And she was very popular among congressional wives that recommended her to mrs. Lincoln. She bought her freedom in st. Louis through dress making. As the lincolns traveled back and forth, they had contraband camps. People escaping from slavery, in particular, with their families. Or enslaved people that were emancipated but had no place to go. There were several contraband associations across the nation. Mrs. Keckley was one of the founders of the washington of contraband association. She talked mrs. Lincoln into donating. We have many people on facebook and twitter asking us questions about her views on slavery. Since she was friends with henry clay, did she also prescribe to the gradual emancipation and colonization of the slaves . Or did you follow lincolns change of heart and scrapping the colonization efforts . Was she antislavery and support the 13th amendment. She was antislavery and certainly supported the thirteenth amendment. They say she influenced the president into the immediate emancipation, but i think it was a war strategy. I think you are right. She was encouraging him to go ahead and do it. Henry clay, in some wasy, what brought them together was a shared love of politics. Again, a lady of the era and in particular, henry clay was a neighbor and good friend, lincolns political hero. In some ways, he is the political matchmaker behind this unlikely union. Our next visit is to springfield, illinois. The place where abraham and mary would meet. Lets talk about the collections in the lincoln library, the first lady artifacts. We will learn more about how that city preserves our memory. Her memory. Here we have some things that mary lincoln had in the white house. She continued to be interested in books. Here are two volumes of what we think was a 27volume set of the works of sir Edward Bulwer lytton. Not a name recognized today, but this novel is remembered. The last days of pompeii. Mary signed these books 1864. She was a pretty good writer of letters. Monogram m. L. On it. Notice no t in there. She never called herself Mary Todd Lincoln, she never called herself mary t. Lincoln. She was mrs. Lincoln, mrs. Abraham lincoln, or mrs. The inclusioncoln. Of todd in her name is a 20th century invention. This is the letter that shows some of her difficulties in the sense that her reputation suffered. She is writing to the assistant secretary of the treasury. Asking if he can find a job for her dress maker, Elizabeth Keckley because she does no longer need the services and wants to get elizabeth onto the jobs list at the treasury. I promise i will never ask you for another favor. Of course, she did. The real cause of their sorrow, personally, was the death of their son, willie. This is a piece of sheet music we just acquired, one of only two copies of it recorded anywhere. We suppose there are a few out there. Hard to imagine how many people would have wanted to buy this outside of the lincolns immediate circle of friends. A substantial publisher in new york, william hall, printed it. He was the first child to die in the white house and not one of only two president ial children ever to die in the white house. From springfield, illinois. Our guest, Richard Norton smith, was very much involved in the creation of. Going back to her need for money, Abraham Lincoln was a very successful lawyer in springfield. He worked the railroads and made quite a bit of money. What was his income . That is a great point. It is interesting. If you go back and look at the accounts, her money seems to be something that started with washington. There are friends and neighbors that talk about how thrifty she was. What a good housekeeper she was it was his legal days. Grounded in her sense that we talked about already, she was a National Figure representing the west, if you will. People were condescending to her and her husband. She had a place of status and an appearance to maintain. I think it was as simple as that. I think it got out of hand. 85,000 was in his estate at the time of his death. His widow would inherit 1 3. You would think that she was in debt 27,000. She got duplicates, hundreds sometimes, of parasols and things. That is true, that is the nature. Over time, it became more pronounced that she would go and buy dozens of sets of gloves at a given time. Wearing gloves in washington with all of those people coming in, i am sure she was aware of the germs people had. I think that was a significant thing. Mrs. Keckley kept some gloves of the president that mrs. Lincoln took off of his hands and gave to her. Whenever there were meetings and people coming by, they wore gloves. This was in the movie, this was real. The movie showed his servant saying that mrs. Lincoln wants you to wear these gloves. She knew about the disease. But she did buy 300 sets of these one of the touching and counterpoints to this is that lincoln loved to see her in beautiful clothes. It was one of the few extravagances he was comfortable with. Indulgent on one hand and critical in the other . I would say he is more indulgent than critical. We cant do justice to the tumultuous years in the white house, but was there a question he was going to seek reelection . There was no question he would seek reelection but a profound question of if he would be. It was wholly dependent on the course of the war. Atlanta had fallen, it became very clear it was only a question of time that the north would win. Lincoln himself believed he would not be reelected. You can imagine the move upstairs around mrs. Lincoln. He had bouts of melancholy. A lot of them. She was one of the few people that could bring him out of bed. Here is what mary lincoln had to say shortly after the reelection. Our heavenly father sees fit to visit us at such times for our worldliness. How small and insignificant world honors are when we are so surely tried. There is still part of the debate about lincoln. Clearly, mary was a devout churchgoer. She had some doubts planted by the death of willie. Lincoln himself never joined a church, but even as far back as springfield, he spent hours and hours with the minister going over the bible. He knew his King James Bible front and back. In some ways, how he taught himself to write. 1865, they were pretty avid theatergoers and to make a decision to go to fords theater where he is assassinated. Tell us of his death and marys role. She witnesses it. She cries out, the president has been shot. People assume that it is part of the show. They take him across the street to a boarding house. He is sick. It was very strange that his cabinet members are all around him while the doctor is there and she is hysterical. I guess that she would be, you know . They get one of her female friends to take her out of the room and keep her there. It takes him all night to pass away. 7 22 in the morning. Right. The sad thing is they would not let her see him at the end because they did not want to hear her hysteria, from what i gathered. The secretary of state took charge of the house that night and said, take the woman out of the room. Robert todd lincoln was at his fathers bedside, but mary was not there. Lets hear a call from st. Petersburg, florida. You there . Yes. First, thank you for taking my call. I have enjoyed the entire series and i have followed it with margaret trumans biography of the first ladies. Devotes quite a bit of time to Mary Todd Lincoln and remarks that in many historians list, Mary Todd Lincoln ranks of the very bottom of the list. I do not agree with that, and im wondering how your commentators would also rank her in terms of all the first ladies. Thank you very much. Oh, boy. Put it this way. I certainly would disagree with those that would rank occur at or near the bottom. It is a less than compassionate thing. I also think her years and her story is really unique in the annals of white house history. I think she is a unique figure. Hundreds of years later, we are having this discussion and still debating her motives, it tells you that she is an important first lady. I will leave it at that. Important because of the man to whom she was married . Important because of the man, important because of the part she plays in the story that is still being debated after all of these years. We still feel as if we do not know who she was and we are not having this debate over angelica van buren. She is one of my favorites. Not my true favorite, but i divide them up into eighteenth, nineteenth, and 20twenty first century. Among the Nineteenth Century ones, she and Abigail Adams would be my favorite. I rank her quite high. You have to look at her vision as a partner. There were several first ladies that consider themselves to be partners with their husband. Not that they were trying to tell them what to do, but to advise and take care of them, whether mentally, physically, or politically. I think she was a very significant influence. She is a tragic figure. Part of the tragedy is that very partnership that helped contribute to him becoming president was destroyed by the war and what they hoped to achieve. Devlinvilification. Is in queens, new york. Thank you for producing such a wonderful program. I watch it every night. Have a comment about carl sandburgs Lincoln Television movie in 1974. I think todays movie is good, but if you really want a good image of president lincoln, people should really watch this type of movie. How hisbe, you can see body was almost stolen from his crypt at the time. There is something i did not even know about as well. I wanted to point out there is so much information about the lincolns. It would take a whole year to earth. Upould rate mary lincoln there with Eleanor Roosevelt and Jacqueline Kennedy. Thank you so much. You make the Jacqueline Kennedy connection. 100 years later, when john f. Kennedy was assassinated, jacqueline would look to the plans from the lincoln funeral to guide her through the decisions of the kennedy funeral. Tell us about the lincoln funeral. The lincoln funeral, was nothing like it before or since. 20 days, they retraced the inauguration route from springfield the washington. With a couple of exceptions, they retraced that route. There were 10, in effect, state funerals along the way. 1 3 of every northern american either looked upon the president s face in his casket or saw the train go by. It was an extraordinary pageant of grief. Very victorian. S. Lincoln got along for any was not along for any of it. Keeping with tradition, she stayed at the white house grief stricken. Elizabeth keckley ascribes her missing the celebrations and wailing with grief repeatedly. I can understand it. Considering all the things that she had to go through in her early part of the marriage, getting to the white house, the triumph of that. The death of their son, his assassination in front of her. But i alsorstand that. Think, and maybe this below on the head might have exacerbated state, thatl day she was letting it out, letting it all come out. It was very sad, but i can understand it. Kentucky and illinois claimed the lincolns as their own. Born in lexington, kentucky. We will visit that next. We are at the Mary Todd Lincoln house, where she lived from 1321. This is not where she was born but her birthplace no longer stands. This is the most significant property Still Standing relating to her childhood. We are in her bedroom, she shared with various sisters and cousins that live with them. They had a family members that came to live with them and lexington. That was primarily so that family members could attend school. Lexington was known for educational and cultural institutions. She had nine years of formal schooling, attended the academy within walking distance of her birthplace. As she went on to attend an academy where she learned everything that was expected of women of her class like needlepoint and dancing. They also learned higher levels of traditionally male subjects like literature and arithmetic. Her formal education made her one of the most educated women of her generation. The popular image is often very dark. Her childhood, many of the stories associated represent a typical childhood. She had a pony she rode around town. She and her siblings would catch minnows in the creek. She and her cousin attempted to create their own hoop skirts and wear them to sunday school. Mary, parents, and her siblings would spend the evening together. In addition to the family members, there were enslaved African Americans that this at this home. On average, they had five slaves that provided all of the household labor. It included three women and two men. We had a portrait of marys stepmothers mother. She is said to be a formative influence on mrs. Lincoln. She was welleducated, she spoke french fluently. She is also interesting with he. She is also interesting because of her views in regard to slavery. In her will, she chose to provide for the gradual freeing up for slaves over years after her death. This represents the political position of emancipation. This is one position on a spectrum in regard to slavery. This is the dining room of the home. This is where mary along with her older siblings and parents would have entertained other prominent families of the day including politicians. One of the greatest politicians of the day and a neighbor of them was henry clay. Of the whigeader Political Party at the national level. He was a friend of the todd family. Mary lincolns father was also a member of the whig Political Party. Clay shared some political ideas, especially in regard to slavery. They supported the american colonization society, the movement to resettle blacks back to liberia. This is what she was exposed to as a child. This was the gentlemans parlor, a formal area of the house. According to one of her cousins, she would sit in on some of the political conversations that what happened here when her father was entertaining prominent men of the day. She might have taken an interesting politics to garner the image of her father that was very active in state and local politics. Our next caller is from lexington. Your question or comment. Thank you for taking my call. I certainly appreciate the empathetic and unique, specific aspects of her time at the white house. Of course, in the segment we just watched, they became confederates during the war. I am aware of her sister, emily, who married a man who eventually became a confederate general. Can you talk a bit about marys mourning . Marys perceptinon confederate siblins . Did she mourn for her confederates . That is an interesting question. She was the fourth of seven children. There were at least three or four of the siblings or step siblings who fought actively and one of them was the husband of one of her favorite stepsisters, emily. Exactly. And he was killed. And the lincolns had emily to stay at the white house for some extended period of time. In fact, there is a scene where i believe there was a general at the dinner table, complaining about sharing the dinner table with a rebel, and lincoln said, mrs. Lincoln and i do not need any help from you in deciding who our guests will be. Anyway, mary made it very clear that her siblings had taken up arms, not only against your country but against her husband, and she saw no reason. Nancy is in indiana. You are on, nancy. Thank you. A wonderful, unique woman, who is my hero. Something that is not brought up often, about her mental condition, but i have never seen anything about what she took. I do not understand why more people do not bring this up, especially as her mental condition got worse as she got older. Thank you, nancy. Do you know anything about that . No, i do not, but what she is saying would make sense, that she suffered from headaches, probably migraine. Thunderstorms, too. She was terrified of thunderstorms. At the first sign of a thunderstorm, he would leave the office and go home. Our conversation about Mary Todd Lincoln continues. I am watching every time it appears. I want to know, how did the lincolns come to know each other . Thank you very much . May we answer that by video . Because we are going to learn more about the lincolns springfield home. This is their home in springfield, ill. , the only calm that they wont, where she learned how to be a wife and mother until 1861. Over the course of the 17 years, they added on and added on and created a twostory, very comfortable, upperclass home. After living in the house, they were able to add a full second floor as part of the expanding of not only their family, and his career, he was traveling the circuit, so most of the dayto day oversight would have been mary lincoln. She was very decisive. She knew exactly what she wanted, so it probably was not too much for her. They were able to add five bedrooms. There was a guest bedroom, which would have been a luxury. They had their own space, not necessarily to highlight problems in their marriage, but they each had their own space. Privacy is not something you get a lot of in the 1850s or the 1860s. He could work on legal papers or political views. Mrs. Lincoln would have to get up early to make breakfast. Her two sons slept in trundle beds under her bed, and then there was robert, the eldest son. He got his own room, but as soon as he went to college, his other brother moved in. And they had to hire girls almost every year they lived here, and that girl had her own space at the end of the hallway right outside of the kitchen. We are in marys bedroom, and this would have been a sanctuary for her. She is in a household of boys and men, a lot of men coming to visit mr. Lincoln, so she would have needed a spot that she could retreat to issue needed to end that would serve as a home office for her. This is morally and figuratively the center of a home. This is a royal oak stove. You can see the acorns on the oven door. It came from buffalo, new york. Mary purchased this stowe from a local dealer in springfield. We think it was somewhere between 20 to 25, and if you think about it, the average person making about 500 a year, this is an expensive purchase. She wanted to pack it up with the other things and take it to washington. Mr. Reagan reminded her she was not going to be doing a lot of cooking when she was at the white house, so they left it for the renters. They started out a little bit lower middle class, smaller houses, people moving into the neighborhood, and the neighborhood was starting to grow. Mary wanted to not only keep up with the joneses, she wanted to be the joneses. The that is a glimpse of the lincolns life together. How did they meet . They were 10 years apart in age. It has been speculated that a relationship with the stepmother may of been a factor, but in 1839, she went to springfield. Why springfield . A sister was married to a man who was governor of territorial illinois, and so she was immediately thrown into the social set. Springfield was a tiny town, maybe 2500 people. She was wealthy and well educated. This is something i think people tend to overlook. Why lincoln was attracted to her in the first place. Classic opposites. Future senators expressed interest in mary. She spoke french fluently. She was by all accounts a winning conversationalist, highly educated. A beautiful woman of her day. A compelling figure, and lincoln stood off to one side with his mouth hanging open. The contrast between his own education, his own lack of polish, and one of the things that married did that i do not think she gets a lot of credit for was to add some polish to her unpolished husband. She was his advocate. Two races for the United States senate, and his political career. She imagine him in the white house long before, and a parlor on the first floor, just one way in which she conducted a campaign for him. He broke off their engagement for 1. 5 years, and here is something he had to say after breaking off the engagement. I am now the most miserable man in the world. Can either of you tell us how they finally got back together . Yes, there was a man named francis. His wife, in effect, stepped in and said, look. This is ridiculous. You care for each other. They reignited a friendship. They announced that very day, mary let it be known to the family that they were married in that night. Edwards and his wife insisted that they have to do it at their house, etc. , etc. , and a great tragic irony of all of this is that it was in that same house 40 years later that his life came to end. Our next caller in west fargo, north dakota. Thank you for having me. I am calling today because i wanted to know your feelings about what mary would have bought when it was time for the slaves to become free. And in minnesota, the largest mass hanging in our United States history, and being a native american from north dakota, i was just wondering. Did mary know about this . And if she did, what were her feelings on this at the time . I have not seen anything about her response to the hangings. I know she was very excited about the emancipation proclamation. I suspect from what i have gleaned from her caring about people who were disadvantaged and outside, so to speak, that she may not have liked the idea, but i do not know. I know lincoln tried to reduce that number. The original was much, much larger than that, and he reduced it significantly. He went along with the whole thing somewhat reluctantly. Cindy in denver. Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I have a question. First, i wanted to thank you for this series. It is great. And i wanted to ask if either of your guests have heard of mary lincoln suffering from Mental Illnesses that we would today equate with being bipolar or manic depressive. We have many people even on twitter try to put a name to mary lincolns anguish, and how impossible is that to do, when you are looking back 150 years . That is what i thought. That is what i was thinking. They used to call it manic depressive before bipolar, but it seemed as though sometimes she was very excited and very outgoing. Hysterical with grief. How possible is it for us to know this. The symptoms give you hints. Pointing out the obvious. Neither one of us is professionally trained to diagnose any condition, but it is no doubt that there is this continuing fascination and a desire on the part of people to put a name to her condition. From what i understood, none of the positions could figure it out. They could not come up with anything conclusive in diagnosis. As a girl, and there were names, and later, mercurial. Georgia, good evening. Hi. Thank you for the program. I will mention that my husband and i and three other couples have read patricia bradys biography of washington. Two months ago, we read the first family, about john and Abigail Adams, so that has added more to my knowledge of those two, and another book that we read, which is fictionalize, a biography of mary, so i do not know how you feel about that, but nothing in it was new to me or contradicted any thing of other sources, historical sources, except that there was mention of what appeared to be an affair with some government employee. It has been several years, and i am sorry that i do not remember the author, but i was very skeptical about it except for the fact that existing newspapers were quoted with dates and headlines, and i thought it this author has made this up, she really has been bold in doing so. It seems the employee may have been somebody in charge of housing or government buildings in d. C. , and i wondered if you had any comments on that or knew anything about it. Only that one of the criticisms that have been made, and i alluded to it earlier, gossip. That is how i would characterize it. Gossip, suggesting that mrs. Lincoln in her desperation inappropriate individuals, and how far it went. I would be very skeptical, to be honest with you. And we should say that this is the first time in history that newspapers were having columnists, opinion writers. The opinion of her was spread in the newspapers around the country. This is really a change in the way first ladies were treated by the press. Sure, sure. A scapegoat. And how incredibly intense the popular emotions were. The civil war. That carries over to coverage of the president and his family. Another video at the springfield home, and this one helps us understand more about the political partnerships that were referred to between the two winds. [video clip] this is where she helped build his political career. Mary and abraham would invite friends and family over to talk politics. This is where he became the president. Mr. Lincoln was a very ambitious person. He had a lot of goals in life. Those were enhanced when he met and married mary todd. She was ambitious, saying she wanted to marry a man with a good mind, someone who wanted to be president , and there was something about lincoln that she saw the potential and encouraged it and helped nurture it. In the dining room, helping to polish them up for society, the Political Parties that they have, where they invited a lot of important people. She wielded a lot of power, both of mr. Lincoln and where he was going. This is the dining room. When they moved in, it was a kitchen, and that is not something that a college, high society, upperclass woman would do. Mary had grown up with a formal dining room, and she felt she needed to have one because she did not want her children growing up without proper manners, and in a lot of cases, mr. Lincoln needed that polishing, as well. So she created this dining room to have that form, where she and her family and also when they had guests over, so a lot of different people that came to visit mr. Lincoln during the 1860s campaign and then after he was elected president. There were four months between the election and the inauguration, so many were coming to springfield, and one ended up being mr. Lincolns secretary of state. Mary, being a host, she would have had to raise of cakes or a macaroon. From downtown springfield. We knew that they bought a lot of those macaroon pyramids. This is the double parlor, and these are the two nicest rooms of the house. There are marble top tables, the windows, gilded candlesticks. There is a what not shelf with a bust of mr. Lee again on it. Not everybody in the neighborhood could say that they had a bust of their husband in the living room. So this is a fancy place. This is where she wanted to show off. Mary would have held her party is in here. She would have been discussing mr. Lincolns political aspirations. At the front door, meeting mr. Linking here, probably in the archway between the two rooms, may be picking up some refreshments, and then in the sitting room before going out again. But this was the seat of power in the house. Mary was showcasing what her husband had done, how far he had come from that oneroom log cabin in the middle of nowhere kentucky to this beautiful house, a very comfortable house, and kind of hinted at where they were headed, stating to the world that Abraham Lincoln had made it and that he was ready to move on. Next, a caller from wisconsin, his name is tim. Go ahead. Thank you for taking my call. I have read several biographies about mary lincoln, and i have never seen anything in there as to how influential, some of the policies that abraham inactive while he was president , and i am just wondering if either of your guests could elaborate further as to the extent of the political decisions that were made in the white house during his time in office. She was interested in personalities. It she used to refer to one as that abolitionist sneak. We talked earlier. Ironically, obtaining their goal. Once they moved into the white house. As we would move that today, it diminished. I think the partnership was in some ways broken. I think it was a source of frustration. The relationship that they had had before the presidency was in some way greatly diminished. I do not think that she was significantly influential in terms of shaping Public Policy or the conduct of the war or even who he voted as cabinet. We have only eight minutes left and still a lot of stories to tell. She lived years after the assassination. What were those years like . Part of the time, she was in a Mental Institution because her son robert put her there, and i have been debating about him very much about the way she felt he had been disloyal to her and how he was able to control her money and become, i guess, the executor of it. She had to struggle, but she managed people who could help her, and i thought that was admirable, even with your problems, that she was able to do that. She did something. She was obsessed with money, and at one point, she moved to sell off a lot of her white house dresses. The public impression. She was in debt. She was in debt. 27,000. She needed the cash, no doubt about it. She petitioned congress for a pension, which finally was granted, 3,000. A month . A year. Subsequently raised to 5,000. But only after she found out that another first lady, and i cannot remember which one, was getting 5,000, and she said, if you are giving her 5,000, you should give me 5,000. She went to live in europe because it was cheaper. In 1871 when tad died of tuberculosis. How old was he . He would have been 16. Of the children, only one lifted to adulthood. Coming back from europe. From baltimore, your question. Yes. A great program. What was mary lincolns relationship . From the movie, tad and his father had a strong relationship. Did he have a strong relationship with her . I think it carried over. He had a sensitivity. Following the death of his father, he realized how vulnerable his mother was, and, in fact, he appointed himself to try to take care of her. I think his personality was also similar to hers, and i think they were simpatico in that. I think she recognized that and he recognized that, so id think that would be another reason why they were close. In chicago, and then she went to europe. She went to europe. She came back. And then robert had her incarcerated for several months. There was a second trial, however, in which she managed to convince a jury that she was perfectly sane. She and robert never really reconciled. She went back to europe for four years, lived in france for four years, and then in 1880 returned to springfield. She was almost blind. She had severe cataracts, and she went to her sisters house, the house where she had met mr. Lincoln. From benson, illinois, you are on. I think you answered my question. I wanted to know if robert and his mother ever got to be friends again. Did he offer to take her to his home . What you might call a formal reconciliation. I do not think she trusted him. And related to this, from twitter, asking, are there any living relatives . There are no living relatives. So robert had no children . One dies. The last direct descendants died in the 1970s. A great question to wrap up the show from facebook. When you are alone with your friends, what is your favorite story to tell about mary lincoln . Do you want to go first . That she and was about had a great relationship. They were the same age. They both lost sons. Her son was lost in the army in the civil war, and then mary supported the causes that elizabeth supported. And what does that tell you about mary lincoln . That she is a very sensitive person, that she could empathize. And how controversial would that be that she was a friend with an africanamerican . To some extent, even the people kept calling elizabeth her servant, but i do not think mary looked at her as a servant. I think mary looked at her to be a companion. In the case of what might have been, lincoln served only one term in congress. He would not be reelected, and so it was mary who managed to campaign to get him the job as commissioner of the office at 2,000 per year. It was mary who wrote the letter. And there was the governorship of the oregon territories. It was mary who told him that organ was not friendly, likely to be democratic and that it was not in their longterm interest to be the governor of that territory. From denver, colorado. Hi. I would just like to know a couple of things. What would she have wanted her legacy to be today, and also, would she have been more or against the Womens Movement in the 1960s, if there were a time machine . Thank you very much. The women and the legacy. The legacy. That she loved her husband and her family. In that order. Do you want to add to that . She wanted people to get along. I really think she did, and that is something she tried to do early in the white house years, to be fair and encourage people regardless of the party they were in, but with regard to women, i think she might have been persuaded to be a feminist, but it is kind of hard to tell. Well, we are out of time. Providing a more nuanced picture of Mary Todd Lincoln, the wife of the president , and i want to say a special thank you to the White House Historical association. 35 installments altogether. Thank you for your contributions tonight. Thank you. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] tomorrow night on cspans encore presentation of first ladies she was very proud of her husband. She supported all of his decisions. Once again, she was a very private person. It was fine for her husband to go to washington and be in the senate and congress, but she did not want to be part of that. She supported his decision to do that all the time. She was very much supportive during the impeachment. I know that there were other things that were attributed to her that she wished that she could be back home where they belong to, and things of that nature, but she honestly believes that her husband would be acquitted and was very proud of it when he was pretty he kept saying, she knew that would happen. The encore presentation of continues tomorrow night at 9 00 eastern on cspan. Our website has more about the first ladies, including a special section welcome to the white house, produced by our partner the White House Historical association, which chronicles the life in the executive mansion during the tenure of each of the first ladies. With the association, also a special edition of the book first ladies of United States of america, resenting a biography in portrait of each first lady, now available for the discounted price of 12. 95 at cspan. Org products. Coming up on cspan tonight, president obama makes remarks on the political unrest and violence in egypt. Then senator john mccain of arizona holds a town hall meeting. At midnight, another chance to see the encore of first ladies, featuring Mary Todd Lincoln. President obama thursday announced the cancellation of a joint military exercise with egypt in response to the violence in that country. The president made remarks from his Vacation Home in marthas vineyard. This is about 10 minutes. Good morning, everybody. I just finished a discussion with my National Security team about the situation in egypt, and i wanted to provide an update about our response to the events of the last several days. Let me begin by stepping back for a moment. The relationship between United States and egypt goes back decades. Its rooted in our respect of egypt as a nation, ancient center of civilization, and cornerstone for peace in the middle east. Its also rooted in our ties to the egyptian people forged through a longstanding partnership. Just over two years ago america was inspired by the egyptian peoples desire for change. They took to the streets to defend their dignity and demand a government that was responsive to their aspirations for Political Freedom and economic opportunity. And we said at the time that change would not come quickly or easily, but we did align ourselves with a set of principles. Nonviolence, a respect for universal rights, and a process for political and economic reform. In doing so, we were guided by values, but also by interests because we believe nations are more stable and more successful when they are guided by those principles as well. And thats why we are so concerned by recent events. We appreciate the complexity of the situation. While Muhammad Morsi was elected president in a democratic election, his government was not inclusive. And did not respect the views of all egyptians. We know that many egyptians, millions of egyptians, perhaps even a majority of egyptians were calling for a change in course. While we do not believe that force is the way to resolve political differences, after the militarys intervention several weeks ago, there remained a chance for reconciliation and an opportunity to pursue a democratic path. Instead we have seen a more dangerous path taken through arbitrary arrests. A broad crackdown on mr. Morsis associations and supporters, and now tragically the violence thats taken the lives of hundreds of people and wounded thousands more. The United States strongly condemns the steps that have been taken by egypts interim government and security forces. We deplore violence against civilians. We support universal rights essential to human dignity, including the right to peaceful protest. We oppose the pursuit of martial law, which denies those rights to citizens under the principle that security trumps individual freedom. Or that might makes right. And today the United States extends its condolences to the families of those who were killed and those who were wounded. Given the depths of our partnership with egypt, our National Security interests in this pivotal part of the world and our belief that engagement can support a transition back to a democratically elected civilian government, we have sustained our commitment to egypt and its people. But while we want to sustain our relationship with egypt, our traditional cooperation cannot continue as usual when civilians are being killed in the streets. And rights are being rolled back. As a result, this morning we notified the Egyptian Government that we are canceling our biannual joint military exercise, which was scheduled for next month. Going forward i have asked my National Security team to assess the implications of the actions taken by the interim government, and further steps that we may take as necessary with respect to the u. S. Egyptian relationship. Let me say that the egyptian people deserve better than what we have seen over the last several days. And to the egyptian people let me say the cycle of violence and escalation needs to stop. We call on the egyptian authorities to respect the universal rights of the people. We call on those who are protesting to do so peacefully and condemn the attacks that we have seen by protesters, including on churches. We believe that the state of emergency should be lifted, that a process of National Reconciliation should begin. That all parties need to have a voice in egypts future. That the rights of women and religious minorities should be respected, and the commitments must be kept to pursue transparent reforms of the constitution and democratic elections make a parliament and president. In pursuing that path well help egypt meet the democratic aspirations of people while attracting the support to help deliver the opportunities to its citizens. Violence on the other hand will only feed the cycle polarization that isolates egyptians from one another and from the world and that continues to hamper the opportunity for egypt to get back on the path of the economic growth. Let me make one final point. America cannot determine the future of egypt. Thats a task for the egyptian people. We dont take sides with any particular party or political figure. I know its tempting inside egypt to blame the United States or west or some other outside actor for whats gone wrong. We have been blamed by supporters of morsi. We have been blamed by the other side as if we are supporters of morsi. That kind of approach will do nothing to help egyptians achieve the future that they deserve. We want egypt to succeed. We want a peaceful democratic, prosperous egypt. Thats our interest. But to achieve that the egyptians are going to have to do the work. We recognize that change changes time. Takes time. And that a process like this is never guaranteed. There are examples in recent history of countries that are transitioned out of a military government towards a democratic government, and it did not always go in a Straight Line and the process was not always smooth. There are going to be false starts. There will be difficult days. Americas democratic journey took us through some mighty struggles to perfect our union. From asia to the americas, we know that democratic transitions are measured not in months or even years, but sometimes in generations. So in the spirit of mutual interest and mutual respect, i want to be clear that america wants to be a partner in the egyptian peoples pursuit of a better future, and we are guided by our National Interest in this longstanding relationship. But our partnership must also advance the principles that we believe in. And that so many egyptians have sacrificed for these last several years, no matter what party or faction they belong to. So america will work with all those in egypt and around the world who support a future of stability that rests on the foundation of justice and peace and dignity. Thank you very much. On the next washington llhiser andan mi Illya Shapiro discuss nullification on certain issues like gun control and state id laws. The u. S. Electric grid and the vulnerability of the system to power outages. Survey look at a recent on american views on aging and medical advances in life extension. Your emails, calls, and tweets, washington journal is live every day 7 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan. Secretary of state john kerry met thursday with the iraqi of the minister as part diplomatic joint Coordinator Committee talks. The foreign secretary has remarks about the region could you can see the event in its entirety any time at cspan. Org. Region that is difficult to separate from what is going on. Terrible atrocities that happened yesterday in egypt. Demonstrations in many parts of iraq. They have been going on for the last eight months. Neither the government or even the demonstrators have used such a level of violence. Toe again, we look forward working with you and your team. I also want to say that iraq is as relied is a reliable partner to the United States. The center for strategic and International Studies hosted a discussion friday with the Iraqi Foreign minister. He is likely to discuss u. S. Iraq relations, the syrian civil war, and the political unrest in egypt. Live coverage starts at 10 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan. Arizona senator john mccain asked his constituents to support the Senate Immigration bill at a town hall meeting tuesday in tucson. He also discussed gun control and his opposition to a plan to combine the government funding measure with a bond with the bill defunding healthcare law. This is an hour and 15 minutes. [applause] nice to see you. As you know, christinas parents are here. We hope that all is well with you. In ourna will always be hearts and our thoughts and our prayers. Thank you. I know that you have a message for me. If you will wait until i finish my two hours of opening remarks [laughter] then we will be glad to hear from you and other members of the audience. Can i also say can you hear me ok in the back . No. Dave sent in our beloved friend passed away. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family. I came to see you today as i usually do to listen to you and to exchange our views and thoughts. I know that we will all do that in a respectful manner, including respect for the views of others who you may disagree with. Fun, but moress formal. But a lot more enlightening could enlightening. It is great to be back. I want to talk to primarily. There are a lot of things going on in the world. I would be glad to talk about those with you. I would like to mainly have my remarks about competence of Immigration Reform. As you know, the United States Senate Passed a comprehensive immigration bill which passed by a very large majority in the United States senate, and now it is up to the United States house of representatives. I believe that this legislation is not perfect. I do not think that any legislation that is a series of compromises that need to be made is perfect, but i also would submit to you that this microphone is provided to you by the Democratic National committee [laughter] there are a few fundamentals of this issue that i would like to point out. Have, fort we now better or worse, 11 Million People who are residing in this country illegally. Any of them have come here recently. A large majority of them have been here for a long time. View, that is de facto amnesty. I do not believe that any of us think we are going to round up 11 Million People and send them back to wherever they came from. [applause] the next thing you know, somebody will start doing. Please booing. Please. Dont we agree that we need to address this issue . People have different views as to how to address this issue of 11 Million People who are living in the shadows in our country, and i would be eager to listen to your views. The approach we took was to have a legalization of people who ofe here before december 11 the previous year, 2011, and they would have the legal status as long as they were able to make sure that they had not and were lawes abiding citizens. That they would have a legal status. At that time, they would have to pay a fee. This legislation is paid for by fees that will be levied, not on additional tax dollars. After a tenure ten year period, they would be allowed to apply for a green card. Then they could continue on the path to citizenship. Part of that is that we have to secure our borders and get 90 effective control of our borders people whoo have apply, they will have to pay back taxes, learn english, pay a fine, a fee, and get in line behind all of those who came to. Ur country legally you are the one to blame . I see. [laughter] to get in line behind all of those who came to this country legally or are waiting week legally. There are exceptions to that. The dreamers, there would be a fiveyear period. The Agricultural Workers, i would be more than happy to describe that to you. As far as our spam stem, that is science, technology, engineering, and mathematics students, when they are postgraduate students, if they want to, they can stay in this country with the green card. Over half the students and postgraduate and fields, science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, they are noncitizens of this country. We would give those students an opportunity to stay in the United States with a green card rather than go back to india or china or wherever they came from. As far as Agricultural Workers, we would have an expanded program for Agricultural Workers, and we would also have the low income worker visa as well. One of the keys to this is that 40 of the people who are in this country illegally did not cross our borders illegally. They came on the visa, and they overstayed that visa. The only real answer to that problem is a thing called e verify. That means every person that seeks employment must have documentation that they are in this country legally. If they do not have that documentation, then the employer if that employer hires them, that employer will be subject to severe penalties. There is no way, my friends, that we are going to stop the magnet of people coming to this country to work, unless there are penalties for people who hire people who come to this country illegally. That is a very important part of this program, this proposal, and we have the technology that can do it. It is not a matter of not having the technology. There are many other aspects, but i would also like to mention a couple of aspects that might be of interest to us. Before i go on to that, let me say it is the broadest coalition of support i have seen in anything i have done in legislation. And theber of commerce aflcio came to an agreement, and they presented it to us. The Agricultural Workers and the growers came to an agreement, and they brought it to us. We did not negotiate that. They did. He had the evangelical Community Behind us, the Catholic Church it is the broadest coalition of organizations the High Tech Community is fully behind it. Ofis a Broad Coalition interests across the economic spectrum of the United States that is in support of that. What me make a couple more points, and then i will be glad to respond. I think it is important for you to realize what the Congressional Budget Office said. The Congressional Budget Office is respected by one and all for their opinions on the economy. They are not republican, they are not democrat, they are not liberal or conservative. The Congressional Budget Office says that this legislation would reduce the budget deficit by 850 billion over the next went years. The legislation would add 300 billion to the Social Security trust fund over the next 10 years. According to this, if the bill was passed with a pathway to citizenship and expanded visa programs, arizonas economic output would increase by 616 million and create 8016 jobs in 2014. This bill would increase the total personal income for arizona and families arizona families by 2. 4 billion in 2020. There are people in this room who will say, but the border is not secure. The border is not secure. It is a lot more secure than it was back in 1986 when we give amnesty to 3 Million People. The answer to Border Security is technology. We have developed technology in iraq and afghanistan where we can serve ale and we can detect. Iraq, one of, in the biggest problems we faced was the ieds, the explosives. They developed a radar angst of toeral petraeus thanks general petraeus great not only detects people in that activity. It tracks them back to where they came from. It is an amazing technological advance. With drones, with sensors, with surveil thean border. The equipment that we need to put in to do that, we got directly from the Border Control. There are nine sectors between california and texas. The Border Patrol assures me that if we put in that technology, which is appropriated in the bill it will not require additional taxpayer funds he does it is paid for by fees we will have 90 effective control over our border. There is a lot more i can tell you about it. I am really interested in your views. I hope that our congressional delegation, who i respect and we senators think we are snobs, and we are by the way, our four republican members they wereegation, there because of my health. Could i ask for your consideration . I ask for your consideration because i think that a nation founded on judeochristian principles should probably want to address this issue that we have before us. Im not saying it is perfect. Im not saying that it should not be changed as we continue to go through the process. What we would like to see is the house of representatives passed legislation, whether it be piecemeal or however they want to im not trying to tell them how they should do it then we can go to conference between the house and senate, which is our procedure, and come up with legislation that would get majorities in both the house and senate and signed by the president of the United States. I would like to close my remarks by telling you an experience i had a long time ago. Every fourth of july, senator lieberman and senator graham of South Carolina and i have gone to either baghdad or kabul for the fourth of july. Usually when we go, we do a reenlistment ceremony or Award Ceremony or something. We try to spend time with the troops who are serving us with such distinction and honor. In 2007, general petraeus asked us to attend a reenlistment ceremony of some 220 american men and women in the service who were reenlisting to stay and fight. Was, part of that ceremony 80 people who had green cards and were going to receive their citizenship. I think many of you may know that if you have a green card and you join the military and serve in the military, there is an accelerated path to citizenship. Was, were 82, i believe it that were going to receive citizenship at the same time. It took place in saddam husseins old palace. There were a couple thousand people there. I walked in, and i saw four chairs where the citizenship ceremony was supposed to take place with boots on them. I asked general petraeus, what is that . He said, these individuals were killed in the last 48 hours. We are going to make them citizens. When you see things like that, it gives you an idea of how patriotic and how wonderful it is and what a great opportunity we have in this country and how precious our citizenship is. I guess what i am asking you is to consider that we have on on acceptable situation, as it is today, and we need to all work together, no matter where we are in the political spectrum, to try to resolve that issue. Thank you for coming. I would be glad to answer any questions or comments or insults. [applause] thank you very much. Hello, senator mccain. I want to thank you for all of your support since we lost christina. I know you were right there with us. We appreciate that. Also, we thank you for supporting us in our day of action. Would you guys stand up . [applause] we want to thank you for supporting on guns. [applause] along with your support we would like to ask you if there is any chance with any chance to talk about the background checks . If you agree or dont agree, we feel that there are some things we would love done. To discuss more. I would be honored to do so. We continue with the advocacy. We have dealt with the pain associated with a loss of a child and there is no word i could ever offer in comfort, so we thank you for your continued advocacy. We will do that, for sure. I actually have a lot of things i want to ask you but i know i cant do that. And immigration whatever is on everyones mind except for the Approval Rating of congress. We have a couple of facts about what your opinion is that we should be doing . Yesterday and in todays paper, we have 13 million on 21 homes that were built at a cost of 600,000. It just shows the waste we have in government. I would like to see something that explains how any of that can be justified. I would like to have this conversation continue. This cant be. The day before the Justice Department came out and said they would not seek charges against the Border Patrol agent accused of killing individuals. There is no justification for this to continue to go on and there should be charges against these agents. Almost one year ago, there were two shootings in october involving agents in arizona. One had to do with friendly fire, the idea that two agents were out there and did did not know the other agent was out there, they both shot at each other and one agent was killed, the supervisor should be held accountable. Then we had another shooting that took place at the border. A Border Patrol agent went up and shot through an opening, hitting a sixyearold shot 16yearold child in the back seven times and killing them. There is no justification for that. If the reverse had been true and a mexican Border Patrol agent shot an american child, what do you think would happen . How long will it take for us to hear about this . Supposedly the fbi is doing the research on this. The Border Patrol would not do me any information. I think i deserve an answer from either organization. In the immigration bill we talk about adding 20,000 Border Patrol agents. The agents that we have, unfortunately a large number of them are not all a fight to be in the position we are in. What we need 20,000 more agents for, i dont know. Thank you for your passion. First, all that i can say is investigations need to be conducted and House Oversight it has to be sabotage. This is a leftwing conspiracy. There has to be your question is serious and deserves a serious answer. I thank you for your passion. When these things happen there have to be investigations and oversight by congress. In fast and furious we were sending weapons down into mexico that were being used i drug cartels. There has to be an investigation when brian terry was shot and killed by an armed mexican. And a rancher from Southern Arizona was shot and killed by armed individuals which we assume were people who were members of the drug cartels. This is a dangerous place. And when we have these armed drug cartels, moving drugs, most rugs are going across the border, coming across our border in arizona, you have guys on top of mountain tops, guiding the skype drug cartels, through tucson and into phoenix, and throughout the country. We have a serious problem. It requires us to have a National Discussion because the problem, mainly, is the drug cartels and the violent side of this, and there is a demand for drugs in the United States of america. And as long as there is a demand they will be there if they have a submarine or tunnels, like i saw in columbia. We have to talk about the issue of drugs in america. This is a violent place when you have armed Drug Cartel Members bringing drugs across the border and into our country. I cannot excuse any action that took lace but to somehow think it is not dangerous when armed Drug Cartel Members were bringing drugs into this country is not an adequate reading of the situation. I visit the border all the time. As i have said, i think the answer to Border Control is technology. I think you have a point about additional Border Patrol. One thing that we need more of is customs people so we can expedite the traffic back and forth, into arizona and back and forth. Some of us here are old enough to remember when you could walk across and walked back. Whether they have like i have seen in colombia. It is a violent place when you have armed members bringing drugs across the border into our country. I do not excuse any action that took place. But to somehow think it is not dangerous when Cartel Members are bringing drugs up to this country is not an adequate reading of the situation on the border, and i visit it all the time. And as i said, i think the answer to our Border Control is technology. You have a point about additional Border Patrol. One of the things we need more of is customs people so we can expedite traffic back and forth. There are some of us here old enough to remember we used to be able to walk across and have lunch in nogales and walked back. Think about doing that today. You bring up problems on the border, and with this surveillance capability, we will be able to keep people back, and then we will be able to send these teams out. Finally, the coyotes. We know these coyotes are the worst scumoftheearth people, and they are bringing people into tucson and up to phoenix and putting them in drop houses where they hold them in the most unspeakable conditions and then hold them for ransom that their families back in mexico. It is an argument for getting our borders secure, but also an argument for us to address the entire issue of illegal immigration. I thank you for your passion. Yes, sir. [indiscernible] go ahead. You are not answering why and what we are going to do with Border Patrol agents. [indiscernible] every citizen of this country has the benefit of innocence of proven guilty. That is a fundamental quality of our democracy. There should be complete and thorough investigation, congressional oversight, and our system of justice exercised. The worst criminals still have the presumption in the United States of innocence until proven guilty. You may have already proven that guilty, but he is entitled to all protections of our laws. On the face of it, i think you may be right, but i would reserve judgment for the investigation and the courts. Yes, sir. I am a member of the county medical Society Public health community. We have been working on trying to do something about guns. And first, i wanted to congratulate you for the stand you have taken on background checks. And i want to add i am not a member of your party. I am a retired naval officer. And i believe that we should do better on controlling we are trying to get some local controls since we cannot get it to the congress. But too many of your colleagues are cowed by the National Rifle association, and so we are hoping possibly, we want you to do something locally. We have a lot of in tucson, and people should go there and sell them to the cartels, to the mentally ill, and to kids, and gun manufacturers do not care who buys them as long as they buy them. I am hoping that you will exert your influence, and i know that it did not go through congress, and i do not have too much hope that it would. But wherever it could be used to help, among other things, as you just pointed out [indiscernible] thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you for your advocacy. We need a female questioner here. I think it is a very bad practice for the congress to get favors as far as the Health Care Premiums are concerned. And i think if obamacare is such a disaster, then you guys should be willing to defund it and get rid of it. I totally agree. It came as a surprise to me that it happened. I strenuously opposed obamacare, but for us to have some kind of exemption card out i do not what happened, but to try to find out what happened and how it happened. In case you missed it, it will contribute to the favorability of congress. It is around 12 . I saw we are down to paid staffers and blood relatives. No one else. I was going through Sky Harbor Airport and a guy said, anybody ever tell you you look a lot like senator john mccain . I said yeah. He said, doesnt it sometimes make you mad as hell . This latest act as you point out get your bids to that American People that members of Congress Divorce them from the challenges that they have. They are correct. All i can tell you is it is a surprise to me. I will look into it. I do not know how you justify it. Yes, sir, could we just have this young man. Then we will go to you. I am a student, and i wanted to know [indiscernible] i wanted to know if there is any proposition in congress to stem our demand for drugs as well is actually keeping them out of the u. S. Which drugs . [indiscernible] i did not know if that apply to the drugs as well. Im glad you mentioned it, because i am conflicted on this issue. As you know, people of arizona voted that marijuana will be legal in arizona for medicinal purposes, and that has been broadly interpreted. That has been the story in the case of other state in america. We also have a situation where we are intercepting marijuana at the border, and yet at the same time there is people who are growing marijuana legally for sale to those who need it for medicinal purposes, and we have seen in california and other states widespread people who have illnesses that require the use of marijuana. So, the attorney general of the United States the day before yesterday or yesterday announced that they were going to try to adjust the war on drugs to the most serious drug crimes. One draws the conclusion that they are not going to pay much attention to minor crimes. There is also a problem we have today, and i always make up my mind on things, but half the people in prison today in the United States are on drug charges, and some on more minor charges than others, and there is such a thing as mandatory sentences which has caused dramatic overcrowding of prisons. Federal courts have ordered california to reduce dramatically their prison population. This is really a conversation that the American People have to have. We have to decide what you think is acceptable in america and what we think is not. I would like to mention one other aspect of it, and i would be glad to hear your points. But i see movies and Television Programs where the use of cocaine in particular is glamorized, then i wonder if that is a beneficial effect on young americans. And so, we need to have this conversation, and i think it is pretty clear that there is at least in some respects a growing acceptance in the United States, and i am not saying that i am one of them, of the use of recreational drugs. We need to have that conversation. I thank you for the question. And i am not saying that i am can i go to this lady right here. She will bring it. My boss sent me and i have to come back with an answer. [laughter] sounds like discrimination. I work at a hospice, and we were affected by sequestration. We are paid solely by medicare. Her question is, what is the budget, what is going to happen october 1 if we have a Government Shutdown . We will lose all our funding, and we have 300 patients that are dying in tucson that will not get their hospice care. So and is the status quo do you think sequestration will end on october 1, or do you think the cuts will and end at any time . It has been wonderful, the growing acceptance and realization that hospice is really a wonderful way, if people choose, to spend our remaining days on earth. And the growth of hospice and i have had relatives who have chosen to make that choice has been a wonderful and caring and loving way for us all to go to my sooner or later. Thank you for what you do. On sequestration i do not know what will happen. I know from previous experience that if we yet to this shutdown of the government, the grand canyon and the Washington Monument and everything that what happened when we shut down the government, the American People will react in a negative fashion and will blame congress. There are some of my colleagues in the congress that say we have to repeal obamacare if were going to raise the debt limit. My friends, that does not work. I want to repeal obamacare. It happens to be the way i voted, but it is not the way it will happen. We do not have 67 votes in the United States senate, which was what would be required to override a president ial veto. And so, i think it is not a right approach. What i do want to continue this effort, to repeal parts of obamacare, which are very onerous and are very harmful in my view to healthcare in america. I do not know what is going to happen, but i believe we will not shut down the government. I believe it is time the American People are heard they want us to sit down together and avoid what is turning into every year or every two years that we threaten people like you. It contributes i joke about the congress, but i am not proud of that. What i think is going to happen is some way we will keep you in business, and sequestration is not the answer. Sequestration was a copout on the part of congress because instead of making the specific reductions that need to be made, like second homes that are 600,000, and it hurts our military because they exhibit so many programs that the burden is being forced on the military. I will tell you one thing, you talk to your friends out at the base, they are questioning whether they want to stay in the military or not, when they are not allowed to fly, not allowed to maintain, not allowed to operate, not allowed to exercise because of sequestration. In the interest of full disclosure, i voted for it. Dumbest vote i made while i have been in the congress. So all i am trying to do is sit down with democrats in the president and sit down with my republican colleagues and we stop this and stop it for a time instead of have this be so often that the American People are not sure and people like you are not sure of their future. Yes, sir. Thank you. I want to thank you for your leadership. I think washington needs were leaders like yourself. I think you are very courageous and if is very admirable. If you are not busy, i would like you to take me with you. My question is, how do you work with your colleagues . As you may have heard, congressman king has said a lot of hateful things, and he has hateful rhetoric. Specifically, he has introduced an amendment that has not gotten past to defund deferred action, or daca, and how do you work with your colleagues so that does not harm the rhetoric of the Republican Party . Let me respond to you first. The remarks that were made by congressman king it is a free country, he can say whatever he wants to. I can say that is outrageous and disgraceful to make a comment that people have calves the size of cantaloupes i will not repeat what he said. I have also a right he has the right to say what he wants to say and i think it is very harmful to the dialogue and the environment that we want to foster in america, where we are all gods children. The best way to handle this is treat your opponents with respect. If you are disrespectful to those who disagree with you no matter who they are, then you diminish yourself and you diminish your ability to convince your colleagues. I will go to the floor i miss ted kennedy all the time because i used to spend half my time fighting like hell with him and half my time agreeing with him. There were freshman two senators, democrat and republican, who got into an argument about our imagery procedure on the floor. Ted came down to help the democrats and i came down to help the republican. We were nose to nose for about five minutes. We walked off the floor, and teddy said, we did pretty good, did we . We have to be respectful of everybodys views. When people disagree with you, you are free to respond, but if i can have an effect on this issue, it is because i have some respect for my colleagues. That is the best way asked the best way to get that is be respectful of the views of your colleagues even if you disagree. The gentleman behind you. Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. I have one hard question for you. [indiscernible] you and i disagree on occasion. I am very happy [indiscernible] you made some tough choices and i think you made the right choices. Thank you for that. On the budget why are we doing continuing resolutions . They should not be funded. They cannot because we are on a continuing resolution. Thank you for your service and i thank you for your representation, and i believe i speak for a lot of us that appreciate the hard work that you do. For four years, weve delayed for it, the democrats, for not passing a budget in the United States senate. This year we finally passed a budget in the senate. My republican colleagues in the senate do not want to go to conference with the house. I do not understand that. I do not get it. I went to the floor and said i thought we were wrong. It is a symptom of the gridlock that we have. And it is very unfortunate. Everybody has to live on some kind of a budget. The congress is the only one that does not. It is not acceptable. I am one of those people who seriously appreciate you being here, and i appreciate your history of openmindedness and fairness. The gridlock you just alluded to is almost beyond belief. My discussions with people i know, friends and relatives, it seems to me an underlying issue is racism. There is a lot of animosity toward the president. That is an observation. Personally, i do not believe that. If you look at the places where racism exists, it seems to have their congressman support this. The congress is not doing what the people want, but racism is an underlying issue. My question to you is, to you believe there is racism in this country, and is it affecting politics in the congress . Sir, i believe that unfortunately there is racism in this country, but i think we have made dramatic progress over the last 20 or 30 years thanks to a lot of people. A lot of sacrifice was made. I think there has been, for example, in the military we used to have a segregated military in world war ii. Harry truman integrated our military during the korean war. I would argue today the military is the best equal Opportunity Employer in america. So i think we have made dramatic progress. Do i believe we have a long way today . I certainly do until we eradicate sexism. We now have a problem with Sexual Assaults. Theyre trying to grapple with that issue. We cannot have young men and Women Joining the military and some young men who are at the risk of being victims of Sexual Assault. I do not believe that racism motivates my colleagues. I believe what motivates my colleagues is a fundamental philosophical difference about the role of government in our society. And obamacare the best example of that. What you believe, we conservatives believe that Less Government is better, less regulation, and on and on. That is what we believe. President obama believes and he articulated in the debate that he and i had in 2008. He believes in bigger government, stimulus packages, he believes in funding of projects in my view that are already developed. We have seen huge failures of investments that we have made in certain mature industries. I reject that categorically. There may be someone somewhere, but i believe the opposition is because of a fundamental opposition in philosophy about the role of government in our society. And frankly, i reject the notion that people who have fundamental differences, which is one of the reason we have two parties, would have any base motives. Yes, maam. On the subject of the military Sexual Assault [indiscernible] on the subject of military sexual trauma [indiscernible] whatever you want to call it [indiscernible] a movie portrays my experience, and i would like to provide your copy of that so you can share with your constituents. Thank you, i would be honored, and i have already heard about it, and i would be glad to see it. Since you bring it up, i would like to bring remarks about it. There is a problem with Sexual Assaults in the military. There is a problem. For anybody to deny it, obviously the facts do not bear that out. I am proud of the military. I am proud to have two sons who have served in the military. I am proud of my family, for many generations. But this cannot stand, and action has to be taken to prevent further unspeakable actions such as this, and the question is, how do you address it . And the debate now is what is the role of the Commanding Officer and whether the Commanding Officer should be deprived of that responsibility or whether it should be reviewed or not under the uniform code of military justice, and we have been wrestling with it for a long time in the Armed Services committee. We will take up the defense bill, and you will see more debate and discussion and voting on that bill. I want to assure you one thing i think it has the attention of the members of the senate, and i hope everybody takes this in the right way. I think it is helpful we have 20 women senators in the senate, and i hope that does not mean that im saying that i am insensitive. But it is helpful in the senate to have that input that we are getting from many of our women senator colleagues. Senator mccaskill of missouri and senator gillibrand are on opposite sides of this issue, and i try not to get on the middle of that one. Yes, maam. There is a microphone. Thank you so much for listening to me. I work for an Amazing Company that services the hardof hearing individuals in the country, and it is an amazing service, and the fcc is proposing regulations that are against the ada act of 1990. They are wanting to have individuals push a captioning button on each time they use a phone, and a lot of time they do not remember and they miss the first sentence because they do not use the button. They want us to charge our consumers 75 a phone when they are already paying for the Broadband Internet and phone service. I am hoping that something can be done because we help individuals every day and we help the military and all those individuals that are hard of hearing. I hope you can take some action. I will have my staff interview you immediately of this problem. I was unaware of it. I will be glad to address it. But i will just say the americans with disability act i think was one of the most wonderful things he have done in recent years. There were some problems with that, but the fact is it is a model to the world. A lot of good things would not have happened if it had not been for that. Thank you for all you do and we will be glad to have our people talk to you and address it. Yes, maam. Now, you do not have to read anything. I know. I want to thank you so much for being a part of comprehensive Immigration Reform. My father got his citizenship and he worked hard for our family to be where we are today. I will read my notes. As the nation has moved up beyond a mentality of passage of a law [indiscernible] the economic benefit of bringing the undocumented of the shadows. My question to you [indiscernible] what can we do here in arizona to help other communities understand the importance of this bill and how it can be passed in the house . Thank you. I think you need to be active, but i really urge you to be respectful. I think it is important we not show disrespect, especially on an issue as emotional as this is, and i know that is hard to do for some of our people who have been heavily involved in these issues. I would also try to point out we do not always respond exactly to the will of the people, but it is very clear in poll after poll after poll that 70 or more of our citizens republican, democrat, independent support a path to citizenship if back taxes, fees, learn english, and get in the back of the line, that you see an overwhelming majority of americans want to move in that path. So that is what i think we need to convince our opponents that this is the right thing to do at the right time. And i would respectfully ask the opponents of this legislation, what is your proposal . The answer may be we do not trust obama to enforce laws that we pass. That could be, but then we should not pass any laws if we do not trust the government to enforce them. And if the president of the United States does not enforce the law, there are ways to go to court because we have a Judicial Branch and get those reversed. A small example, the president made some appointments during a recess, which was unconstitutional in our view. We are fighting it all the way through the courts, to the National Labor relations board. And it is going to be heard by the United States Supreme Court who will judge that the president acted unconstitutionally. That is the process, not saying we cannot pass laws to secure our border because they will not secure our border. That is not in my view the way to go. I will do that, and theres a young man who is very eager to rebut whatever you said. Yes, sir. Senator mccain, i want to echo the words of my friend, thank you for coming to tucson. We would like to see you more down here. Thank you for coming down here and talking to the people. I want to talk about Immigration Reform. A big issue, thank you, and we appreciate your work, a tough political thing on capitol hill, and as a former state lawmaker, we need a comprehensive Immigration Solution because what we have been seeing at the state capital has not worked. It has only harmed our state economically. We need a solution from washington. I appreciate i think you are right, and if our entire delegation, republican and democrat, senator flake and i hoped it would help our organization somewhat, dont you agree . Go ahead. I certainly do. With all due respect, we still need all the help we can get from washington. I call for that support. I have accumulated a lot of seniority. I will not live forever, contrary to popular belief. It should not be based on seniority. It should be based on virtue. He should have a level Playing Field of everybody competing for tax dollars. We should not have it spent on the basis of seniority or clout. Otherwise, soon or later we suffer because we are going to have new members of the congress and senate. Arizona sends a lot more money to washington than it gets back. What our job i think should be is rather than saying let me put her feet in the trough. That is where we might have a slight disagreement. We just need to get our money back. Thank you for working on it. On Immigration Reform, i want to talk to the issue. I have not had it come up. A big issue, very important. You spoke to the comments on the largess of the senate bills, that corker amendment, which made it very expensive, and i believe you yourself made a comment that i thought was on the money that if we pass this bill we are going to have the most militarized border since the fall of the berlin wall. What i am asking for, is what can we do to help a commonsense solution come out of washington, not this one size of an approach of building a wall on the border that when you go down and look at places on the border it just does not make sense. It does not make sense, and the politics in washington seem to favor that. What can we do to have a more commonsense approach on Immigration Reform . Related to that let me respond. That is why we have the process that we pass a bill in some legislative house, we go to conference, and we can address some of the problems that have arisen that people have with the legislation as we passed it. That is the process, as you know. Go ahead. Thank you, and your comments on technology will do it. The bill managed hundreds of miles of the border, and we hope that can be addressed commonsensical. On another issue, in arizona and it is already hot and dry. We live in a hot and dry say. Science shows our climate is changing. The consensus is clear that activities of humans contribute to a different climate. What do you think are the possibilities for addressing energy and climate in a way that will make sense to protect our quality of life and to protect our economy . Coming from a state that is hot and dry, science will show it will continue to be hot and dry. What can we do about Climate Change . Thank you. Thank you very much, and thank you for your service. We will have to have a town hall meeting on the issue. It was Barry Goldwater who used to say we have so little water that the trees chase the dogs. That was a joke. You were supposed to laugh. Anyway i think the earth is warming and i think the question is how you address it. I worry about increasing peoples taxes. I think we can rely to some degree on some technological advances as opposed to increasing taxes on americans who i think are taxed enough, for certain, in these tough economic times. There is some good news. This fracking, we are now going to be an energyrich nation. We will export natural gas to europe which will diminish the european dependence on russian oil, and this whole fracking thing is turning into incredible good news for america. It will make us Energy Independent for over a period, depending on how we do it in the next 10 or 20 years. Natural gas is much cleaner. I think that is a lot of good news, and the technology is good. I think that with some incentives from the government, we are seeing automobiles with dramatically increased mileage. I have a car i have a ford fusion, and i never stop at a gas station. There is cars on the market that are much more fuel efficient than they used to be. It is the market that is driving that, so there are a lot of things we can do in incentivized technology, in my view, that we have not explored instead of raising peoples taxes. Because i just do not think that right now with Americans Still in a stumbling recovery that we would want to raise taxes. Yes, maam. Thank you. [indiscernible] were at your town hall [indiscernible] thank you very much. She asked me to tell you that. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I will tell you her. Whenever we talked about Immigration Reform, being in arizona is like racial profiling. What is happening on the west coast and east coast and the Canadian Border . I know all sorts of asians coming in through containers. Does our Immigration Reform stop racial profiling and address that issue also . Thank you for the question. The fact is because of the disparities in our economy and in the mexican economy, and understandably, many mexican citizens and central americans, south american citizens want to come here. Canadians, because basically we have an equal economic situation, are not driven to come to when you look at the numbers, it is nothing in comparison to what crosses our southern border. And we need to make improvements there. I am not saying we should ignore it. I am saying the major issue is still across our southern border. I would like to give you a little good news. That is the mexican economy is improving there. There are some indications right now and he have not got enough that there may be a balance between inmigration and outmigration because the mexican economy is giving them an opportunity to live where they live. I think there is some good news out of that. The greatest disparity between two nations in the world as far as Economic Conditions is the United States and mexico. That is improving rather significantly. They have a young president who is surrounded by some very talented people. As you may have noticed, they are going to reform pemec and will be able to increase oil production. They are talking about deregulating the Communications Industry it is totally controlled by one guy, the richest man in the world, as a matter of fact. It costs Something Like five times in mexico to make a phone call than it does in the United States. That is outrageous. We are seeing some signs of hope and life there and i would like to give you a little thank you for supporting background checks. I have visited your office since my daughter was murdered in 1999 with a gun that was legally bought in a gun shop. The majority of people who buy guns that murder people without a background check are not the mentally ill. It is criminals. [indiscernible] that may be true, but generally speaking, criminals kill criminals, ok . There are signs i do not want to get into an argument with you, especially but there are signs everyone of these people committed these harmful acts when you look back rest retrospectively should have raised alarms. Someone who is a criminal, then that is much harder to predict what their behavior is going to be. It is my understanding from careful study of these cases, there were indications the individuals who did this should have rung an alarm bell someplace along the line. Please go ahead. My question to you is about a national gun trafficking bill. There is no National Bill that imposes criminal sanctions for gun trafficking. So guns can move pretty freely between states. Gun trafficking is controlled by states at this moment. We are in desperate need of a national gun trafficking bill. I would be glad to look at it. If you have a proposal, we have a states rights issue here, but things that cross state lines become federal issues. I would be glad to examine it, any proposal you might have. I am open to looking at almost anything. [indiscernible] we have become very good friends for all these survivors, and i am honored to do. There is such a thing as a silver lining. But that is it. To be friends with people. I would like to on a personal note say that i have a dear friend who went to the military with you. Thank you. A Great American. Thank you. Yes, maam. Senator, my name is rita garcia. I would like to thank you for coming to south tucson. I wanted you to know about how i wanted you to vote on gun legislation. Could you please ask him to come to south tucson . He is all the time going to green valley. It is just too hard to get there. I did not even plan on this. I saw it on the news this morning. I was on my way to the doctors appointment, but i felt obligated since i asked you to come here and you are here. I became disabled in december of 2010 due to a rare illness. I worked over 30 years. It killed me every time i heard senators, especially republicans, say we are takers. I paid taxes for over 30 years. I have a rare illness and i am disabled. A disconnect between federal and state of arizona reputation, arizona is one of the few states in this country, run by republicans predominately, where there was a cost of living raise for Social Security. It was 3. 6 . The state of arizona raise the eligibility for a program that was paying 100 a month for my medication to 3. 4 . Consequently, i was cut off. 100 a month, which i could no in this country, run by longer go to physical therapy because im single and i have lived by myself and i am trying to make it on my own. Researching at night, i watch c span because i need to keep my brain going if my body will not. Thank you for all that you do. Even though i am democrat, i vote for you oftentimes. [laughter] anyway what can we do to stop that . Again, i contacted my record is in the those immediately, in his office, in his district, and we are just stuck. Arizona is one of the few states where our legislature will not i was told by my case manager when i got the notice that i was going to get the increase, my first concern was, am i going to lose this program . I was told no. The state will raise the eligibility so you are already in the program. Guess what a few months later i get the notice. What can you do to help . First of all, i have to give you a straight talk. I can help you with that or programs and we can do everything we can to make sure that you receive everything that you are entitled to. And i hope that that is sufficient to help you successfully live in an independent living fashion and environment. I cannot tell the state legislature what to do. I can recommend to them thank you, that would help. But i would be glad to come, but i cannot write state laws. Arizona is the only state that does that, and they do that intelligently intentionally to cut benefits from people. Because we are the takers. Thank you. Youre not a taker. Youre not. Ok . Im sorry. I will have somebody right after this meeting talk to you to see what we can do. Thank you. Thank you for coming to tucson. All the way in the back. It is a privilege to talk to you. My son met with you years ago. I have been a door knocker. I am a real estate agent, and i have had companies that keep all the and if you do not pay your mortgage and something is going on, i do what i do and i noticed that loans insured by the government, fha loans, you are underwater, the bank is holding it and tries to get your modification. The modification in general speaking everybody would agree means you will get something for yourself. It turns out fha puts the partial claims on, people do not know what they have got, and banks are reselling these to individuals, where a car, 10 years old, gets a brandnew price. They cannot move forward. The banks are not regulated. They never had short sales, these departments, or anything, and now all of a sudden they create these things and each bank has a different recall, and people go to foreclosure. They do not have any way to fight to make some progress. What can be done to regulate these banks and get them under wraps . First of all, i think you are aware that the doddfrank bill was supposed to, was advertised to make sure that none of these Financial Institutions were ever again too big to fail. You believe that . Of course not. Of course not. The reason why this recovery has been so uneven in my view is that mr. Bernanke gave the major Financial Institutions free money and you do not get free money when you go out and sell a house to someone for their rich. They do not get free money. That is wrong. What the major Financial Institutions are doing in making record profits and people like you and people you are serving are struggling. Now we want to continue in existence fannie mae and freddie mac who were major perpetrators i find mindboggling and if they people were trying to get a mortgage, jpmorgan, that would be different. House to someone for their rich. But it has an uneven recovery. Wall street is making record profits. We have businesses and homeowners who are struggling. I may sound like a communist, but the fact is this is becoming a very uneven recovery, and that is wrong. Middleincome americans and lowerincome americans are not getting the benefit of this recovery. And we got to look at why not, and we got to look at these big we had hearings, thanks to senator levin, on morgans whale trade. They lost 6 billion in their trade. Some of that was taxpayer insured money they were playing with. How do you justify im sorry to get wound up but all i can say is you have my sympathy. I think it is good news that the Housing Market in arizona is coming back really well. Thanks. I have always said it was the collapse of the Housing Market that started this. So theres good news out there for arizona as far as the housing is concerned. You and i still know thousands and thousands of Small Business people in this state who are struggling mightily, and still nearly half of the home loan mortgages are underwater worth less than their mortgage. That cannot continue in my view. These peoples mortgages have to be renegotiated. That was what i suggested years ago. You want to respond real quick . [indiscernible] they are taking place [indiscernible] they are getting loans shoved down their throats that they do not understand. [indiscernible] you do not know what is really going to go down. [indiscernible] you do not know what when it is going to go up. It is not fair to the people. Ive got you. My friends, i will be back to south tucson it is clear to me what part of suit of tucson im supposed to be Holding Town Hall meetings. I thank you all for coming in. Thank you for your participation. I hope we can continue this. Ialogue on Immigration Reform congress is in recess. I hope we can bring some people on board through the voice of the people. Thank you, and god bless you. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2013] coming up, an encore of first ladies featuring Mary Todd Lincoln. And cspans townhall examines the future of the Political Parties. Meetinger a town hall hosted by House Minority leader nancy pelosi. The center for american ro ess , andilya shapi we will discuss many issues including gun control, and state id laws. Next wednesday, august 21, the six Democratic Candidates in the new york city mayoral race will debate. Include former representative anthony weiner. We will bring you a live preview of the debate at 6 00 p. M. Eastern and the debate at 7 00 on cspan. Season 2 of first ladies influence and image begins monday, september 9 with a look at the life of Edith Roosevelt read all this month, we are showing encore presentations of season 1. Programs of every first lady from Martha Washington to ida mckinley. Tonight, Mary Todd Lincoln. Born in 1818 in lexington, kentucky, mary todd grew up and lived to see her husband issued the emancipation proclamation 45 years later. A mother of four sons, she witnessed the death of three of those sons as well as her husbands assassination. Her life was filled with tragedy, but as lincolns political partner, she relished in his success. A look at the life and times of Mary Todd Lincoln, one of the most complex first ladys. Thank you for joining us on first ladies influence and image. We invite two of our academic advisers. Rosalyn penn is a history professor at meredith and Morgan Richard nortonty. Smith is the director of five president ial libraries, including the Abraham Lincoln library in springfield, illinois and a president ial biographer. Thank you for being here. We will start with richard. Mary todd is often viewed in broad strokes. Criticism of her lavish spending and overly indulgent mother. If you look at a more nuanced picture, what do you see . That is why we need to get 90 minutes, to begin to get at the nuances. Lincoln has been called the Great American story, an integral part of the Great American story. Steven spielberg doesnt make movies about julia tyler or louisa adams. Mary todd lincoln remains someone who is symbolically divisive, perhaps. To some, a heroine, others, a victim. She is a surprisingly contemporary figure as well. I like her because she is so complex. I say i like her. Elizabeth was her dressmaker and companion. She did not live at the white house a good deal of time. Formerly enslaved, purchased her own freedom and was interviewed along with other women to become the first ladys seamstress. Or modess, as they called it. She made the most beautiful dresses. What do you learn about mrs. Lincoln through Elizabeth Keckleys eyes . It gives you a very concrete sketch of the relationship she had with her for four years. Just reading what elizabeth tells you gives you an idea of how complex and hurt and victimized she was. It is the most intimate portrait we have of mary. We will begin our new lost image, we call her mary todd. She signed it mary lincoln. Where did mary todd come from . It was modern. She did not use it as i understand. Lincoln famously said, mocking the pretensions of his wifes family, gone are the time when the todds needed one d. A thousand times she heard that joke. Hes 6 foot 4, shes 5 foot 2 if that. He had a habit of introducing themselves as the law and the short of that, another joke she endured more than enjoyed. These programs work because they are interactive and we will get to phone calls. You can also go to the Facebook Page or tweet using firstladies. Lets take a brief look at what the country looked like. 31 Million People in 33 states, but 11 were going to break off to form the Confederate States of america. 35. 6 growth since 1850, continuing to grow at an enormous pace. 3. 9 million slaves, 12. 7 of the population. The largest cities were new york, philadelphia, and brooklyn, and baltimore. They arrive at the white house. Set the scene for the election and how tumultuous politics were. The political process had broken down. There were four parties that ran in 1860. The Democratic Party that was the one truly National Political organization split into northern and southern wings, divided over the issue of slavery. Stephen douglass, lincolns longtime rival and at one point romantic rival for marys hand is the democratic nominee from the north. Vice president breckinridge is the southern democratic candidate. They disappeared in the middle of the decade, they nominated john bell from tennessee, middleoftheroad and support the constitution platform. The republicans were defined as antislavery, but not radically antislavery. They were all about containing the spread of slavery. Lincoln along with 40 of the vote, the news of his election reached the states almost immediately to secede. The white house that the first lady in here it was the domain of. Harriet lane, admired for her social skills even though the country was fracturing. Historian Catherine Clinton said that in one of her biographies, she broke the elite virginia scheme of things. Many of the congressional wives at some of the women that were very important during the Virginian Times were resentful. They lampooned them. Lincoln and her. The sad thing was, she was a very intelligent and highly educated woman from the family in terms of what you consider wealthy and good families. But they treated her very badly. The other thing that might have hit her is that washington was a swamp. In many ways. When i came to washington, it was mosquitoridden. That was not 150 years ago. I am sure she had a difficult time dealing with that. She complained about how drab and worn the white house itself was. Some of the furniture was back to the days of dolly madison. She had a lot to worry about. If you think of the repercussions of this woman arriving from kentucky, referred to as the republican queen, mocked by people that do not know her and willing to assume the worst about these banquets, it puts a chip on her shoulder even before she arrives in the capital. It might begin explain some of her shopping, some of her preoccupation with fixing up the white house, for example. And we have a quote from her, her rationale for why she spent so much money on her own attire. I must address myself in this attire because people who scrutinize every article i wear with curiosity. The fact i have grown up in the west subject to more searching observation. When she interviews Elizabeth Keckley, she asks how much she will charge for her dresses. Keckley says, i will be reasonable. They came to an agreement. My theory is that she wanted a lot of dresses but could not afford to pay lavishly. On her budget, she was able to get what she wanted because keckley agreed not to overcharge her. Paint a portrait of what life was like in the Lincoln White house as a Family Living there and the public using the space. It was astonishingly open to the public. In the middle of the great civil war that is raging, twice a week, the president would throw open his office and people could line up as long as they could wait for his Public Opinion badge. These were mostly jobseekers. Mrs. Lincoln, the children finessed themselves around these folks. The two boys at the beginning, of course. Willie was 10 years old when they arrived, and his younger brother. Robert have got off to harvard. There was another brother that they lost years earlier in springfield. Mrs. Lincoln looked upon the white house very much as a symbol of this nation. They took seriously the responsibilities. As the woman responsible for the appearance of the house, remember that this was a time when the country was coming apart at the seams. The symbolic value of americas house is even greater. In some ways, she took the same view of the white house. This network produced a documentary on the white house and we visited the lincoln bedroom. We will show you that next to show you the kind of spending that mary lincoln did on the furniture. It dates back to 1861, bought by Mary Todd Lincoln as part of white house refurbishing. 8 feet long, 6 feet wide, made of carved rosewood. The lincoln bed with a purple and gold and lace. Victoria and decorating. We have later photographs with the bed still dressed the way that she dressed it. It is this bed bought by mary lincoln that holds the key to understanding the lincoln familys time here. It was one of mary lincolns many extravagant purchases when she began a campaign to redecorate this entire building. She spent so much money, and he flew into a rage and said it was a stink in the nostrils of the American People. She was dying flubdubs for that damned old house. In 1862, lincolns middle son died after a bout with typhoid fever. Mary never went into the room or looked at the bed again. Willies death lincoln took to the window and let her look across the river at a Mental Institution. If you dont get a hold of yourself, you will have to be put there. That was her time to absorb it. By contrast, it would hole up the week he died just to grieve. How they handle their grief goes to show how we see them today. In the case of mary, it unhinged her. The final blow. The war melded the disparate elements of lincolns personality and his grief. His loss of willie morphed into the nations sense of loss. Millions of homes throughout the union. It was a different interpretation. Congress allotted her 20,000, four years later, they allotted 125,000 for refurbishing. She did not have enough money to spend. How could she have spent some much if they only allocated 20,000 . Was it all on that one bad . She overspent the 20,000 by about 6,000. There was a war going on. It is part of the legend and the myth. The outofcontrol shopaholic. A political aspect of that, too. How did they react when there were so many sons of mothers dying on the battlefield . She basically disappeared for over one year. Her social life ended for over a year. She ordered the marine band to stop playing concert on the white house grounds, maybe they could move to lafayette park. Her grief was too great. She indulged herself even beyond the standards of the day. Her compatriot was Queen Victoria that would spend the rest of her life grieving over the loss of prince albert. What brought her out of her grief . She was continuing to be vilified. Her son, robert, who was really a disappointment in the long run, had her incarcerated and sent into a Mental Institution. She decided, i am going to get out of here. She was able to mobilize to get her out of the Mental Institution. I dont think she ever really recovered from the loss of willie. It was not just willie. The loss of edward, her husband, tad. And the loss of her mother that sent her to springfield in the first place. Her life is shattered by loss. Tell me how she served as the first lady to the president. Her intuition about individuals is more accurate than that of her husband. Does lincoln listen to her . I think that she tried to advise him but his advisers did not want her interfering. That was definitely the case when he was dying and they to occur from the room and would not let her in to mourn, which was a traditional thing in her culture. The wife stays with the husband until he dies. They robbed her of that. Gary robinson asks, did mary lincoln create enemies out of social rivals . Who was our main antagonist . She had a number of rivals. The daughter of the secretary of the treasury made no secret about wanting to replace lincoln in the white house. Kate was quite the belle of the ball. It is safe to say that mrs. Lincoln had no great love lost for kate. Part of the legend, and it is accurate, the stories of her accompanying the president to the battlefield near the end of the war. She lost it. The reason the grants did not go was because julia grant did not want to risk having another confrontation with this unpleasant woman. What did the staffing think of her . They liked her. Only four of the staff remained when the lincolns came to the white house. They brought in freed blacks. Those that were interviewed talked about her in a very positive way. She got along well with them because they were the ones that helped raise her after her real mother died. Lincolns personal secretary did not use the best descriptions of her. As a young man, they have their own reasons to resent. They both had nicknames that the secretaries used to refer to them. Outside of washington, what was the perception of the first family . That is a great question. If you read the press of the day, there was a considerable amount of criticism. If she had been more press conscious, we know how much time she spent visiting soldiers and hospitals. Writing letters to soldiers that were unable to write themselves. Taking food and gifts. And she never took reporters along with her. If she had been a little bit more p. R. Conscious, who knows what it might have done . The press followed her into every store they went into. That is what they reported, those kinds of things. Ron, youre on. Go ahead, please. You have indicated that there continues to be great controversy among historians and biographers over the lincoln marriage. The first school of thought was initially presented in a biography by his law partner based on his postassassination interviews with the multitude of lincolns, colleagues, neighbors, servants, etc. They reinforced the view that she was a domestic hell on earth with frequent outbursts with multiple instances of thrown objects including a piece of fire would that resulted in her battered husband having a broken nose. The other is presented as an appealing love story that reflects the deep skepticism over the veracity of the informants. About the super abundance of evidence to the contrary for both the prepresident ial and a president ial periods. Scholars have given more credence to her written as the money. This is culminated in the 2008 biography. In the interest of time, do you want to know which they think is more correct . One more thing i want to add. James mcpherson criticized the relentless hostility towards the lincolns which marred the image. My question is, what is your assessment of the depiction of mary lincoln and what is their assessment of the Motion Pictures portrayal . Are you familiar . Michael is hostile to mary, certainly amassed a great deal of evidence to support his view. Eleanor and franklin people, and they are pretty much abraham and married people. There are people that will not set on the same stage at scholarly symposiums. They are so committed to one or the other and how passionate these historians feel. Abraham seemed committed to marry. And that is the ultimate test, in some ways. I wonder if he has read Catherine Clintons biography of mrs. Lincoln where she engages him. You have to really look at the reasons why people write biographies or books. He was angry. And later took it out on mary. From what i have heard, you have to look at the motives behind the books. I asked what you thought of the modern portrayal. It was wonderful precisely because it transcends all of these camps. I agree. From mary lincoln about her own view at the public perception, i seem to be the scapegoat for both the north and the south. We will show you next, another video. A woman at her summer cottage not very far from the capital to call the soldiers home. President lincolns cottage was a seasonal home for the lincoln family. Mary lincoln really pushed for the move out here to the soldiers home because she thought it was a place for her family to have more privacy than at the white house. We are in the mary lincoln room which is not part of our typical experience of the cottage. We call it the mary lincoln room because when they moved here in the summer of 1863, she is involved in a pretty serious carriage accident. Some believe the carriage had been tampered with and this was an early assassination attempt. When she suffered that accident, the drivers seat separate from the carriage and the horses are startled at take off, she had to leap out of the carriage in order to save herself. She suffered a head injury. She is treated at the white house, and she comes out to the soldiers home to make a recovery. Not only is it the most isolated of the bedrooms, but it is the only one with windows allowing for better crossbreezes. In 1862, there is the imperative of having a more private place to mourn and grieve after the death of willie. Mary lincoln was going about the traditional cultural and social expectations of a woman in morning and felt like she could not do it as effectively at the white house. For her, there was a personal imperative to come out to this home to grieve the loss of her son. One of the best documented events that actually took place is a seance hosted here after the death of willie. Noah brooks writes about that account. Lincoln felt that mary was being taken advantage of and that she might be subject to blackmail. He asked for some of his colleagues and friends to check out the situation and see if they could figure out what the medium is doing and figure out how to make the noises he was claiming were spirits. Here at the soldiers home, he recounts noises they were hearing in when the lights turned on, they were able to prove he was a fraud. It does not seem that she was aware that she was being defrauded. After it was revealed this man was a fake, she was quite embarrassed by that. And there was an attempt to conceal or cover up the incident. Whenever she writes about this place, she talks about how much she was looking forward to coming out here. She sought as fulfilling her dream of what her family would experience in washington, d. C. Even though death and of the war were surrounding them, it gave them a little bit of respite from the chaos of Downtown Washington d. C. It is available for public tours, put it on your list of out of the way spots, a time capsule for history. You were visibly wanting to react to the spiritualism. This is in some ways the lincoln president in miniature. There is a school of thought that says her condition worsened after that very severe head injury that she experienced. The date is significant, july 2, 1863. The second day of the battle of gettysburg. The president s attention is focused elsewhere. Gettysburg and vicksburg, he did not pay as much attention to his wife. Is there speculation that the carriage accident was an assassination attempt . After the election, there was a document to the assassination attempt the Pinkerton Service saved them from. There was a constant threat on the lives of these people. That stress we should take into account. She was living through all of that. It was a horrible time to be in the white house, i would think. We are in the midst of a fiveyear marking of the civil war events. We could not capture all of the tumultuous and significant events, but here are a few of them. 1861, the civil war began. 1863, they issued the emancipation proclamation. And as richard said, the gettysburg address. 1865, the thirteenth amendment abolishing slavery is proposed. And april 9, the court house in virginia, the Confederate Army surrenders. It bookends the lincoln administration. You mentioned her unannounced visits to military hospitals. That goes to the controversy. There is a significant body of evidence that calls into question some of her conduct. For example, she was surrounded by people that very clearly were there to take advantage of her. She needed money. Never forget the fact that from the day she arrived there, she needed money. She needed money because she was 27,000 in debt to her dress makers. The president had to be reelected because if he was, she could keep those bills that day. If he was not, who knew what might happen . She was spending public funds on the white house proper. There were always people around her that were eager to serve their own interests by appearing to serve hers. There was a shady character by the name of henry, a chevalier of the New York Herald. He befriended her and the president s annual message to congress in 1861 appeared in the New York Herald the same day it went to congress. You get the picture. There was no shortage of people like the chevalier that were eager to line their own pockets or serve their own interests. I think the legitimate criticism of mrs. Lincoln has nothing to do with her mental condition. You can only feel empathetic for that. But legitimately, there is criticism about how she conducted herself in ways that were always a danger, if exposed, of embarrassing the president. It was the gardener that took the letter and gave it to the press. That was the story that was and then the gardener leaves for scotland. He must have been paid to do this. The other side of the argument is that it was the story they created to cover up what happened. Candace in fredericksburg, virginia. I am enjoying the show very much. I have a question regarding the broken first engagement and then they got back together a year andahalf later. Why do you think they broke up . And did they get back together . Did lincoln love her throughout their marriage . I will hold the question because as the program progresses, we will go back in time and answer your question, i promise. Lets take another from chad. My question is about Elizabeth Keckley. She served with mary lincoln, im not sure . She made dress as for a variety of people including jefferson daviss wife. Was very popular. She had her own shop. She did not live in the white house. She had her own residence, a place that she rented. And she was very popular among congressional wives that recommended her to mrs. Lincoln. She bought her freedom in st. Louis through dress making. As the lincolns traveled back and forth, they had contraband camps. People escaping from slavery, in particular, with their families. Or enslaved people that were emancipated but had no place to go. There were several contraband associations across the nation. Mrs. Keckley was one of the founders of the washington of band association. We have many people on facebook and twitter asking us questions about her views on slavery. Since she was friends with henry clay, did she also prescribe to the gradual emancipation and colonization of the slaves . Or did you follow lincolns change of heart and scrapping the colonization efforts . Was she antislavery and support the 13th amendment. She was antislavery and certainly supported the thirteenth amendment. They say she influenced the president into the immediate emancipation, but i think it was a war strategy. I think you are right. She was encouraging him to go ahead and do it. Henry clay, in some wasy, what brought them together was to be shared love of politics. Again, a lady of the era and in particular, henry clay was a neighbor and good friend, lincolns political hero. In some ways, he is the political matchmaker behind this unlikely union. Our next visit is to springfield, illinois. The place where abraham and mary would meet. Lets talk about the collections to the lincoln library, the first lady artifacts. We will learn more about how that city preserves our memory. Here we have some things that mary lincoln had in the white house. She continued to be interested in books. Here are two volumes of what we think was a 27volume set of the works of sir Edward Bulwer lytton. Not a name recognized today, but this novel is remembered. The last days of pompeii. Signed these books 1864. She was a pretty good writer of letters. Monogram m. L. On it. Notice no t in there. She never called herself Mary Todd Lincoln, she never called herself mary t. Lincoln. She was mrs. Lincoln, mrs. Abraham lincoln, or mrs. President lincoln. Mary todd is a 20thcentury invention. This is the letter that shows some of her difficulties in the sense that her reputation suffered. She is writing to the assistant secretary of the treasury. Asking if he can find a job for her dress maker, Elizabeth Keckley because she does no longer need the services and wants to get elizabeth onto the jobs list at the treasury. I promise i will never ask you for another favor. Of course, she did. Over and over. Personally, it was the death of willie. This was a piece of sheet music that we just acquired, only two copies report it anywhere. We suppose there are a few out there. It is hard to imagine how many people would have wanted to buy this outside of the lincolns immediate circle of friends. A substantial publisher in new york, william hall, printed it. He was the first child to die in the white house and not one of only two president ial children to die in the white house. From springfield, illinois. Going back to her need for money, Abraham Lincoln was a very successful lawyer in springfield. He worked the railroads and made quite a bit of money. What was his income . That is a great point. It is interesting. If you go back and look at the accounts, her money seems to be something that started with washington. There are friends and neighbors that talk about how thrifty she was. What a good housekeeper she was during his legal days. We talked about it a little bit already, she was a National Figure representing people. People were condescending to her and her husband. She had a place of status and an appearance to maintain. I think it was as simple as that. I think it got out of hand. 85,000 was in his estate at the time of his death. His widow would inherit 1 3. You would think that she was in debt 27,000. She got duplicates, hundreds sometimes, of parasols and things. That is true, that is the nature. Over time, it became more pronounced that she would go and buy dozens of sets of gloves at a given time. Wearing gloves in washington with all of those people coming in, i am sure she was aware of the germs people had. I think that was a significant thing. Mrs. Keckley kept some gloves of the president that mrs. Lincoln took off of his hands and gave to her. Whenever there were meetings and people coming by, they wore gloves. This was in the movie, this was real. The movie showed his servant saying that mrs. Lincoln wants you to wear these gloves. She knew about the disease. But she did buy 300 sets of these one of the touching and counterpoints to this is that lincoln loved to see her in beautiful clothes. It was one of the few extravagances he was comfortable with. Indulgent on one hand and critical in the other . I would say he is more indulgent than critical. We cant do justice to the tumultuous years in the white house, but was there a question he was going to seek reelection . There was no question he would seek reelection but a profound question of if he would be. It was wholly dependent on the course of the war. Atlanta had fallen, it became very clear it was only a question of time that the north would win. Lincoln himself believed he would not be reelected. You can imagine the move upstairs around mrs. Lincoln. He had bouts of melancholy. A lot of them. She was one of the few people that could bring him out of bed. Here is what mary lincoln had to say shortly after the reelection. Our heavenly father sees fit to visit us at such times for our worldliness. How small and insignificant world honors are when we are so surely tried. There is still part of the debate about lincoln. Clearly, mary was a devout churchgoer. She had some doubts planted by the death of willie. Lincoln himself never joined a church, but even as far back as springfield, he spent hours and hours with the minister going over the bible. He knew his King James Bible front and back. In some ways, how he taught himself to write. 1865, they were pretty avid theatergoers and to make a decision to go to fords theater where he is assassinated. Tell us of his death and marys role. She witnesses it. She cries out, the president has been shot. People assume that it is part of the show. They take him across the street to a boarding house. He is sick. It was very strange that his cabinet members are all around him while the doctor is there and she is hysterical. I guess that she would be, you know . They get one of her female friends to take her out of the room and a keeper there. They6 there. R it takes him all night to pass away. 7 22 in the morning. Right. The sad thing is they would not let her see him at the end because they did not want to hear her hysteria, from what i gathered. The secretary of state took charge of the house that night and said, take the woman out of the room. Robert todd lincoln was at his fathers bedside, but mary was not there. Lets hear a call from st. Petersburg, florida. You there . Yes. First, thank you for taking my call. I have enjoyed the entire series and i have followed it with margaret trumans biography of the first ladies. She devotes quite a bit of time to Mary Todd Lincoln and remarks that she ranks at the very bottom of the list. I dont agree with that, and i wonder how your commentators would also rank her in terms of first ladies. Oh, boy. Put it this way. I certainly would disagree with those that would rank occur at or near the bottom. It is a less than compassionate thing. I also think her years and her story is really unique in the annals of white house history. I think she is a unique figure. Hundreds of years later, we are having this discussion and still debating her motives, it tells you that she is an important first lady. I will leave it at that. Important because of the man to whom she was married . Important because of the man, important because of the part she plays in the story that is still being debated after all of these years. We still feel as if we do not know who she was and we are not having this debate over Angelica Angelica van buren. She is one of my favorites. Not my true favorite, but i divide them up into eighteenth, nineteenth, and 20twenty first century. Among the Nineteenth Century ones, she and Abigail Adams would be my favorite. I rank her quite high. You have to look at her vision as a partner. There were several first ladies that consider themselves to be partners with their husband. Not that they were trying to tell them what to do, but to advise and take care of them, whether mentally, physically, or politically. I think she was a very significant influence. She is a tragic figure. Part of the tragedy is that very partnership that helped contribute to him becoming president was destroyed by the war and what they hoped to achieve. The vilification. Queens. N. Devlan in this is a wonderful program. I watch every night. Carl sandbergs Lincoln Television movie in 1974. Todays is good, but people should watch this type of movie. You can also talk about his body almost stolen from his crypt at the time. There is so much information about the lincolns, it would take a year to earth up. I would rank her with roosevelt and kennedy. 100 years later when john f. Kennedy was assassinated, jacqueline would look to the plans for the lincoln funeral to guide her through the decisions of the kennedy funeral. The lincoln funeral was nothing like it before or since. 20 days, they retraced the inauguration route from springfield the washington. With a couple of exceptions, they retraced that route. There were 10, in effect, state funerals along the way. 1 3 of every northern american either looked upon the president s face in his casket or saw the train go by. It was an extraordinary pageant of grief. Very victorian. Mrs. Lincoln got along for any was not along for any of it. Keeping with tradition, she stayed at the white house grief stricken. Elizabeth keckley ascribes her missing the celebrations and wailing with grief repeatedly. I can understand it. Considering all the things that she had to go through in her early part of the marriage, getting to the white house, the triumph of that. The death of their son, his assassination in front of her. I can understand that. Maybe this blow on the head might have exacerbated her emotional state. She was letting it all come out. It was very sad, but i can understand it. Kentucky and illinois claimed the lincolns as theyre wrong. As their own. Mary todd was born in lexington, ky. We will visit. We are at the Mary Todd Lincoln house, where she lived from 1321. This is not where she was born but her birthplace no longer stands. This is the most significant property Still Standing relating to her childhood. We are in her bedroom, she shared with various sisters and cousins that live with them. They had a family members that came to live with them and lexington. That was primarily so that family members could attend school. Lexington was known for educational and cultural institutions. She had nine years of formal schooling, attended the academy within walking distance of her birthplace. As she went on to attend an academy where she learned everything that was expected of women of her class like needlepoint and dancing. They also learned higher levels of traditionally male subjects like literature and arithmetic. Her formal education made her one of the most educated women of her generation. The popular image is often very dark. Her childhood, many of the stories associated represent a typical childhood. She had a pony she rode around she and her siblings would catch minnows in the creek. She and her cousin attempted to create their own hoop skirts and wear them to sunday school. Mary, parents, and her siblings would spend the evening together. In addition to the family members, there were enslaved African Americans that this column. At this home. On average, they had five slaves that provided all of the