you said it was what the american people needed to have that romney care given to them as you head had in massachusetts, then in your paper back, you took that line out. so speaking of not getting it straight in your book, sir that would be a good one for you. >> one of the most unique features of tonight's debate was the ninth man on the stage, former new mexico governor gary johnson's poll numbers so minuscule, he has not been included in previous debates. >> i do bring a unique perspective for this stage. i started a one-man handyman business in albaer can chill 1974 and grew it to over 1,000 employ yishlgs i have run for two political offices in my life, governor of new mexico and re-election. i promise to submit a balanced budget to congress in the year 2013. i promise to veto legislation where expenditures exceed revenue. >> our cnn political correspondent jim acosta is in orlando for us tonight. you know, i'm of the so thrown by the audience reaction and i know it's different when you're there than when you're watching on television. was there an obvious winner or loser or someone the crowd was with tonight, jim? >> well, i think if there's somebody that the crowd was not with tonight, it was probably rick perry, candy. at one point, the governor from texas said this felt like a game of bad mint, at times during this debate, it was really one against eight, all going after him. on the subject of that law in texas that gives in-state tuition to the children of illegal immigrants, perry actually defended the law once again and said it was a state issue and he defends the law and he drew some boos at that point when he said that. so, that was probably not a good moment for rick perry there. i have to say that i think the line of the night, you just mentioned gary johnson, a good thing he finally snuck into one of these debate, when need line about his two dogs, his neighbor's two dogs having done more for shovel-ready jobs than the president of the united states, that was probably the line of the night. that one really hit it out of the park. >> yeah. he got right into the spirit of things, it seemed. let me just -- since you brought it up, let me play for our audience romney, former massachusetts governor romney going after governor perry on the whole issue of in-state tuition for children of illegal immigrants. >> i feel pretty normal getting criticized by these folks but the fact of the matter is this. there is nobody on this stage who has spent more time working on border security than i have. out of 181 members of the texas legislature, when this issue came up, only four dissenting votes. this was a state issue. texans voted on it and i still support it greatly. >> so, jim, in terms of the pure substance of it, it seems immigration, went into it in more depth, was there anything new and substantive you thought came out of this that we didn't know before? >> well, i think that was -- i think that was one big issue. the immigration issue and one that dogs governor perry mainly because it is the one where he is so far apart from the rest of the field. you know, he is going to have to explain this probably time and again at these debates. you know, governor romney, you know, he was challenged on the issue of his health care law back in massachusetts that, you know, some republicans called the father of obamney care. tried to go after mitt romney near the end of this debate and one point said mitt romney supported obama care and just a clear moment when rick perry did not have his facts together. that was an inaccurate statement. so you know, more than getting to the substance of the issues, what we saw tonight was a bad night for rick perry, really stumbled through a lot of moments in this debate, it is possible it is probably probable that the audience picked up noon, candy. >> jim acosta in orlando tonight. thanks so much, jim. former texas congressman dick armey is a key leader in the tea party mom. . give us your overall impression how you think tonight went. >> of course, as an activist in this movement nope as the tea party movement, grassroots activism for constitutional -- on government, my biggest impression that was it was so interesting that our folks had framed the narrative and debate for the previous election and they pretty well have captured the narrative on this election. virtually everybody on the same is playing out of the song book. the government is too big, too sloppy, time thor fearing, too wasteful and too much of a bound on the private sector of the economy and we have got to bring down the size of government. the reform of tax code reflect truth county of government and make it a more equitiablable ta code. >> play you the new member of the bunch, the former governor of new mexico did get into step, the tea party movement talking about the kinds of changes he would make should he become president. take a listen to this. i'm promising to submit a balanced budget to congress in the year 2013. that's 43% reduction in federal spending. i am going to prom moyse noise advocate the abolishment of the federal department of education. >> now, that has been something that has come up in republican campaigns in the past. do you think looking at the totality of tonight's debate, someone who is an independent voter would come away thinking that there were some harsh edge to the republican party because that's what the criticism was before when people would bring up the whole idea of we need to shut down this, we need to shutdown the department of education? >> well, actually, what i was surprised by was the degree to which all the people on the platform were willing to talk about that. you know, republicans understand that one of our first duties as parents in this country is the education of our churildren. we think of it as a severe obligation and we feel the severe burden than comes to the nation when education fail ours children so much. we see a direct correlation between the failing of our national educational system and the greater involvement of the federal government. so, i think you have to put it in perhaps a little bit more supportive terms of the fact that we love our children, want them properly educated and we are fearful of the degree to which increased federal government has deteriorated the education. the fact is though it is been openly discussed in a way i haven't seen for several years. we have sort of gotten past the political correctness police and talking about the big issue of an extremely important imperative duty of every nation which is the education of its children to do that right and properly and i was impressed that every one of these people on this dais were willing to talk about that and very critical terms of the deterioration to education has been brought by the federal government. >> congressman, let me ask you you quickly, could you pick me a which were and a loser tonight? >> well, actually, to my way of thinking, the nation is wing because for the first chance in a long time, we signal of hope and change we can believe in. the great fear of most americans is what president obama with his whimsical, row man the inc.,ic redisstrib bugs obsession will bring to this country and we see here a whole dais of people, any one of whom would probably beat this president, all of whom understand our need to get a hammed to on this government. >> let me bring in kevin mann. he worked for the romney campaign in 2008. i weren't to play you something your former boss said tonight, tuition help on illegal immigrants when he was going after governor perry. >> you see how it is that a state like texas to go to the university of texas if you are an illegal alien, you get an in-state tuition discount. you know how much that is? it is $22,000 a year, four years of college, almost $100,000 discount if you are an illegal alien to go to the university of texas. if you are a united states citizen, from any one of the other 49 states, you have to pay $100,000 more. >> is this issue of the in-state tuition that governor perry approved of for illegal immigrants a soft spot for perry, kevin? >> it is a very soft spot. i think that the position that governor romney clearly state and other candidates clearly stated, is a consensus issue, not be giving breaks to people here who have broken the law and those types of policies, the type of policies that governor perry advocated for texas, they created the sanctuary city, they created -- i'm sorry, magnets for illegal immigration to get worse and it is a big problem and one where we are trying to secure the border, can't have those type of incentives for people to break the law and come across our border. so i think governor perry has found himself very much out of the main stream on this particular issue with the republican party as well as with a lot of independent voters and many democrats who think it is not the right policy. >> do you think that your former boss, mitt romney, has been able to get past the whole issue of obamney care, used to call it the idea that health care in massachusetts, that he presided over, put nothing place, so very much like the president's health care program that republican, many republicans can't stand in do you think he is past that? to me, it seems to come up in every debate we have seen. >> health care will come up in every debate, as it should it is a very important issue. i think what is very important with governor romney's progression through this campaign, he has made it very clear yes differs with president obama and why he thinks obama care is wrong why it is not the right remedy, as well as the simple fact he would, on his first day as president, issue an executive order that would allow states to on thipt-out of the one-size-fits-all distinction t is something romney has said over and over. they see he agrees with a large part of the particular praben electorate that disagrees to obama care and a very specific plan what he would do, how woe remedy the ills of to obama care going forward and also a are really important issue for him hurricane the one that speaks to his values on health care, how you get costs down, how you increase access and how it is that we maintain the quality of care. i think those are important issues also going to help had him in the general election. >> i want to thank you so much, kevin madden, former aide to mitt romney and former congressman dick armey, thank you, too, for your help tonight. coming up next, syria and a new threat seen there by the ambassador. care. ambassador. care. ambassador. 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[ male announcer ] ask your doctor if cialis for daily use is right for you. for a 30-tablet free trial offer, go to cialis.com. harsh words today about a country that's supposed to be a u.s. ally in the war on terrorism. the chairman of the u.s. joint chiefs of staff today accused pakistan of exporting violence to afghanistan. admiral mike mullen says a pakistani-based terror group, as well as the country's powerful intelligence agency, are behind some recent high-profile attacks on u.s. and nato targets. >> the haqqani network acts as a veritable arm of pakistan's internal services intelligence agency. with isi support, haqqani operatives planned and conducted that truck bomb attack as well as the assault on our embassy. >> pakistan denies its intelligence agency supports the haqqani network, but after the u.s. found osama bin laden hiding there, can pakistan be trusted at all? let's ask former state department official nicholas burns, who's now a harvard professor. and zami khalil azad, a former ambassador to pakistan. nick, we also know from some reporting from barbara starr that the u.s. has stepped up its drone attacks into pakistan against the network. we've had this discussion before, but this seems at a kind of higher intensity right now between the u.s. and pakistan. where is that relationship right now? >> i think the relationship, candy, is at its lowest point in many, many years. this was an extraordinary and very significant statement by admiral mullen today. in the past, american officials had insinuated that pakistan was ineffective in dealing with terrorist groups on its soil, sometimes saying they might have some involvement, but to say it's a veritable arm of the haqqani pakistani intelligence is a very dramatic statement and it poses a very complex dilemma for the united states that the ambassador and i had to deal with when we were in government. that is that we know the pakistanis have not been on our side fundamentally in this fight against terrorism, and yet we know that they're also a key factor in the eventual resolution of the afghan war. so, that's the dilemma. do you cut off aid to pakistan or do you stay with the pakistanis, hope for the best and hope you can encourage them to do a lot better in the fight against terrorism. >> ambassador, i'm assuming that you probably agree with nick that this seems very racheted up. and i just wonder if you could answer that question, how do you deal with this, because not only is pakistan important, or we were told it was important in the fight against terror, but it's got a lot of weapons that we would rather not have in the hands of a non-friendly country. >> you're right. pakistan has been, as nick implied, both a friend and adversary at the same time. when we think about pakistani nuclear weapons, we think about the supplies that we need for our troops from afghanistan coming across the border, and when we think about al qaeda in pakistan, we want to cooperate with them, but when we think about afghanistan, there we have been working at cross-purposes with each other. >> how does this get racheted down? >> i think we need to adjust our approach, in my judgment. and that is, we have been trying to pull away the taliban from pakistan reaching out to them directly, excluding pakistan. i think we need to include pakistan in the diplomatic effort for a settlement of the afghan dispute, but demand that they bring the taliban with them to the negotiating table, and if they don't, then our success and failure will depend on whether we can discipline pakistan and we may have to go to a tougher approach of containing them and increasing much more pressure not only by ourselves but internationally. but that has risks, too. this is what nick said. we are on the horn of a significant dilemma. >> let me move you on to -- speaking of scary, ahmadinejad was at the u.n. today, gave a speech. the u.s., among other countries, walked out. just a brief clip of something he said. >> translator: do these arrogant powers really have the competence and ability to run or govern the world, or is it acceptable that they call themselves as the sole defender of freedom, democracy and human rights while they militarily attack and occupy other countries? >> ambassador, is ahmadinejad just a dangerous blowhard? i mean, what is the point of this kind of rhetoric? >> i think it's, in part, laughable because he's been saying this for so long and he's not the ahmadinejad that he was a few years ago. he's much weaker, less of a factor even in iranian politics now than he was a few years ago. he's trying to get attention, both at home and in the middle east. he's trying to be part of the conversation. i think he was much more dangerous than he is now, but his relevance is also far less in terms of the politics of iran and of the region. >> nick, i want to move you on to something else that caught our eye. talking about robert ford, the u.s. ambassador to syria. he did an interview in "the daily caller" today, part of which i can't read for its language, and he's talking about libyan rebels at this point. i'm sorry, not libyan, syrian rebels. i'm sort of amazed that there are not, fill in the blank, crazy. the street protesters and the street protests organized amaze me for their sheer courage. i don't think americans can really get a grasp on how dangerous this is, to go out on these streets with this army and these thugs. again, he's talking about those rebelling in syria against the syrian government. but nick, this doesn't sound like ambassador language to me. he's almost an anti-ambassador, isn't he? >> well, he's a modern ambassador. he understands that the battle right now in syria is literally to communicate a clear american view of the syrian people to capture some hearts and minds. he's been out visiting people who have been ravaged by the syrian government, who had brothers and husbands killed by the syrian military. he's shown great empathy for the syrian people who are struggling to overthrow the regime, and i know there's some voices in washington, particularly in congress, saying we should bring him home as an expression of our opposition to bashar al alasad. we should keep him there. he's the most effective ambassador we've had in a long, long time because he's out on point telling the truth at a very dramatic time in syrian history. we should be very proud of him. he's a fluent arabic speaker. he's obviously down at the grassroots of syrian society. at a time like this when thousands of people have been killed, when the syrian government has used brute force, we do need an ambassador who will speak frankly and openly and that's what robert ford has done. >> two quick points. one, nick is absolutely right. robert is a great guy. he worked with me in baghdad when i was there. he was very helpful to me. second thing is what happens in syria is extremely important, because this is the second most important country to egypt in terms of the potential for change and its impact. and if syria can change potential focus on iran, this will have a huge geopolitical effect. therefore, i am an advocate of us looking at ways and means to assist the syrians. the iranians were lucky when the revolution happened, the arab spring had not happened and the world did not assist as much as it did with regard to egypt or with libya and so on. so, syria is extremely important and i applaudm as nick did, ambassador ford. >> two thumbs up for ambassador ford. thank you so much, ambassador khalilzad, nick burns, thank you both for your insight. ahead, she spent a whopping $140 million of her own money on a failed bid for governor but today, she landed a new gig. in here, pets never get lost. ♪ in here, every continent fits in one room. it was fun, we played football outside. why are you sitting in the dark? ♪ [ male announcer ] in here, you're never away from home. it's the at&t network. and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say. whether it can be done safely and responsibly. at exxonmobil we know the answer is yes. when we design any well, the groundwater's protected by multiple layers of steel and cement. most wells are over a mile and a half deep so there's a tremendous amount of protective rock between the fracking operation and the groundwater. natural gas is critical to our future. at exxonmobil we recognize the challenges and how important it is to do this right. welcome back. here's the latest news you need to know right now. as of today, meg whitman, who made a fortune with ebay but lost the california governor's race last year, is the new ceo of technology giant, hewlett-packard, replacing leo apataker who was fired after 11 months on the job. a worker cataloging materials from bill clinton's days as arkansas governor turned up a moon rock that's been missing for 30 years. it was in a sealed box labeled plaque. a white house official confirms members of the 1985 chicago bears team that won the super bowl had been invited to visit the white house next month, making up for a visit that was canceled 26 years ago because of the shuttle "challenger" explosion. the u.s. border patrol is disputing new allegations of widespread abuse. the human rights group, no more deaths, says it spoke with 13,000 people who tried to get across the u.s./mexican border and heard stories of beatings, denial of food and water, and exposure to extreme temperatures. an alarming discovery in libya. revolutionary forces in the southern part of the country discovered a military site containing what appears to be radioactive material. cnn senior international correspondent ben wedeman has exclusive pictures from the site. >> reporter: we came upon this site about 15 minutes' drive to the northeast of the southern libyan city. there on a military base, we were shown by an ntc field commander two huge warehouses full of thousands of blue barrels with indistinct markings, but some of them had a yellow tape on them which said "radioactive." we also found in one of those warehouses several bags of yellow powder, also closed with this tape marked "radioactive." we showed pictures of those bags to experts outside of libya, and they say that is most likely yellow cake, which is crude uranium. and in fact, to create enriched uranium for the use in the production of nuclear weapons, you need much more in the way of processing than libya actually possesses. the real danger, of course, is that local people will get on this base and get their hands on this material, which is very dangerous, dangerous if improperly handled. also on the site, hundreds of what seemed to be surface-to-air missiles and the worry is that those missiles could easily blow up next to the nuclear materiel, causing a danger for the entire area. i'm ben wedeman, cnn, reporting from southern libya. up next, we'll ask florida's tea party-backed governor if his fellow republicans prefer a presidential candidate who is the purest conservative or the strongest against barack obama. it's what they do. accept it. you can't change the way banking works. just accept it, man. free ? 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[ male announcer ] the epa-estimated 42 mpg highway chevy cruze eco. perfect for finding your way home. i know you're worried about making your savings last and having enough income when you retire. that's why i'm here -- to help come up with a plan and get you on the right path. i have more than a thousand fidelity experts working with me so that i can work one-on-one with you. it's your green line. but i'll be there every step of the way. call or come in and talk with us today. a new poll of florida republicans shows rick perry ahead of mitt romney, but among all florida voters, romney runs much stronger against president obama. the quinnipiac university survey among republicans shows perry surging to a 31% to 22% lead over romney. but among all florida voters, romney leads president obama 47% to 40%, while the president leads perry in a head-to-head matchup, 42% to 40%. that raises a question of priorities for republicans in florida and elsewhere. we discussed it earlier with florida republican governor rick scott. it seems to me that at this moment, looking at these polls, the question has to be what do republicans want? do they want first and foremost someone who hangs to conservative orthodoxy or do they want someone who can beat president obama? >> you know, i think they want somebody that has a jobs plan. i ran last year, the first time i ran, as you know, and i ran on a jobs plan, and i still think that's the biggest issue we're dealing with in this state. there are other issues, but jobs are number one. i think floridians care about social security, the plan to fix social security and the deficit is a big deal but number one is the jobs plan. i think in the end it's going to be who can get our state back to work. that's who's going to win. >> let's bring it down to you. would you rather have a candidate, a republican presidential candidate that agrees with you on every conservative issue, or a republican presidential candidate that can beat president obama? >> well, i believe, i believe the republicans are going to win, because it's going to be about jobs and i think president obama's going to have a tough time just because jobs have not been created while he's been president. so in the end, i don't know who's going to win. i think either romney or perry, and there will be others. i think both of them could win against president obama if they get the nomination. but it is going -- i really believe it's going to come down to tell me what your jobs plan is. if i believe your jobs plan, i'm going to vote for you. >> let's talk social security a little bit. are you comfortable with governor perry's description of the social security system as a ponzi scheme? >> oh, i don't know if that's the right way to describe it. you know, when you get your social security statement, it says if you read it, it says it's only 76% funded and there's going to be changes. as floridians, we have paid into social security, like a lot of other government programs, we sent money to d.c. we expect to get that money back. we expect that our social security is real. so, we have to fix social security. so i think it's very important, whoever is speaking tonight, they tell us how they're going to fix jobs, but how they're going to fix social security so floridians that rely on it, they know how it's going to happen. >> and there have been a number of republicans that have been out there that think -- that don't want the country to get the idea that republicans want to do away with social security, which they fear people might be hearing if they're listening to the chatter in the republican primary, particularly as it comes from governor perry. so are you one of those that is worried that the republican party is beginning to look like the party that is anti-social security? >> i hope not, because i believe republicans like me, we want programs -- here's what i'm dealing with in my state. we're dealing with a pension plan that's not fully funded. i want state workers that rely on that plan to be able to rely on it. i want it to be fully funded when i get out of office. so i've got to improve it. just like social security needs to be improved so all americans that are relying on social security know when they retire, the money is going to be there, because we're putting money in there every year. >> so you are not fully comfortable with some of the remarks that governor perry has had about social security, i would then guess from that? >> the way i would say it, and everybody's different, the way i would say it is look, i want to make sure that every program that we tell americans to rely on, it's going to be there. i don't want to misrepresent that something's going to be there when it's not. i know we have to fix social security, just like i know in my state, i have to fix the pension plan. >> let me ask you about another governor in this race, governor jon huntsman. he set up his headquarters in your state, he has ties to that state through his in-laws, yet he's polling at 2% there. what is wrong with the huntsman campaign? >> you know, i don't know. i've met him, you know. he's clearly somebody that has had a lot of success in life, and -- but he's not been polling well. but you know, it's tough. governor romney has been at this for a long time. governor perry has been governor for ten years. so they've got a -- a lot of people already know a lot about them ahead of time. and it's a hard job to become president. >> we were also interested in looking at these polls. you took an immediate hit almost when you got into office. your standing is up a little this month, but still not that great. in fact, it's pretty near where president obama is scoring. he's scoring about 39% approval. you're in that arena as well. what do you make of the fact that you and president obama have the same levels of approval, which are in the 30th percentile? >> well, you know, my job is to get our state back to work. so, that's what i think about every day. the poll i think about is every month when we come out with unemployment numbers, and fortunately for us, we generated jobs this year, 87,200 private sector jobs. and as you know, we're bucking the national trend, which is not doing well. but you know, i think that it's incumbent upon all of us to do the things we said we're going to do when we ran. in my case, i think people are surprised that i'm doing exactly what i said i was going to do when i ran, because that's not the typical politician. >> governor rick scott out of florida tonight, thank you so much for your time. >> thanks, candy. have a great day. >> you, too. who will be the cnn hero of the year? 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[ male announcer ] stay smart and book smart. book early and save up to 20% at any holiday inn express. stay you. for medicare made clear, we're here to answer all of your questions. call unitedhealthcare medicare solutions. tonight, we are also revealing our top ten cnn heroes of 2011. each of these ten will receive $50,000 and a shot at the top honor. cnn hero of the year will earn one of them an additional $250,000. viewers get to decide who that person will be and anderson will show you how. >> now that we have announced the top ten cnn heroes of 2011, i want to show you how to vote for the cnn hero of the year. this is the main page of cnn heroes.com. down here is the list of all top ten heroes. each one will receive $50,000 plus a shot at becoming cnn hero of the year. that's where you come in. here's how you can vote for your favorite cnn hero. first, you can learn more about all the heroes by clicking on their fan pages. i want to show you how to do that. as an example, i will go over here, click on patrice. we're just using her as an example to walk you through the voting process. any of the ten nominees would be worthy of being cnn hero of the year. that is entirely up to you. now, after you look at each fan page, pick the person who inspires you the most and click on vote now, which is right over here on the right. click on that, and a new page comes up. it shows you all the top ten heroes. choose the person you want to vote for. now, i will say randomly taryn davis. her photo will show up here under the "your selection" area. then it shows you a security code over here. you type in that security code, you click on the red box, which is over here for vote. something new this year, you can vote online and on your mobile device, your laptop, your tablet, pretty much any smartphone or cell phone with a browser. just go to cnnheroes.com. you can vote up to ten times a day for your favorite hero through wednesday, december 7th. >> so you can help choose the cnn hero of the year, as anderson said. go to cnnheroes.com now to vote for the most inspirational hero. all ten will be honored live at cnn heroes, an all-star tribute, on sunday december 11th. next up, john king asks former vice president dick cheney if he really said deficits don't matter. today, defense secretary leon panetta warned congress it has to resolve what will happen to terrorist detainees if president obama closes the guantanamo bay prison because lawmakers don't want them sent anywhere else. earlier this week, john king sat down with former vice president dick cheney who defends gitmo and enhanced interrogation of suspects. >> vice president biden, we were in shanksville, pennsylvania, for the 10th anniversary of 9/11. the country was under a terrorist threat at that moment. the administration said it had credible information of attacks on new york or washington and you said the administration might have better handling if it were still using enhanced interrogation tactics, a detainee, you scrub him with these tactic and you might know more. i asked the vice president, joe biden and he interrupted me and said, no, it wouldn't work and said he sees quote zero evidence you get any value added or anything worthwhile out of those tactics. >> well, there was a report he ought to read done by the central intelligence agency after we used the enhanced interrogation techniques, after which it produced very good results, specifically from khalid shaikh mohammed. the intelligence committee wrote a report on that. i read it when i left office and went back to the national archives where the classified material was kept. i reread it and asked it be released and it has been released and it specifcally points to the great success we had, especially on khalid shaikh mohammed and abu zubayda. they were both subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques and both water-boarded and both cases produced significant results. >> joe biden? >> wrong. he hasn't checked the record. if i must say, all due regard for my friend, joe biden, senators, on the foreign relations committee, aren't ordinarily involved in those matters anyway. >> your constant test after 9/11, i read in your interviews, and other interviews you did, you make it again in your book, maybe you didn't like everything we did, but that in seven years after 9/11, when george w. bush and dick cheney left office, america was not attacked, therefore, your policy is successful. cannot president obama make the same thing and say i passed the cheney test? >> certainly, it's an argument he can make, if we get through that without any attacks. i think he also has to say and i don't believe i ever heard him say this, this has been a continuous process that started back after 9/11 and ran through the 7 1/2 years of the bush administration and then continued on into the obama administration. the bottom line is, it's been a continuum, a process carried on especially by our counterintelligence professionals, by the intelligence people and by the special operation folks and the military. they all deserve credit, because one day builds on another. one success builds on another. i think that's a legitimate way to describe it. i think we laid the groundwork in those 7 1/2 years and the results speak for themselves. and certainly, if the obama administration can avoid any further attacks on the united states, you'd have to judge that a plus as well, too. >> how would you rate george h.w. bush in a sentence or two as president of the united states? >> i think he gets high marks as president. >> he also made a tough and political choice when the country faced a situation, not unlike what we are going though in politics today, concerns about the deficits and potential effect of dragging the economy were front and center. george h.w. bush had the courage, knowing it might cost him re-election, knowing for sure it would cost him support with his conservative base to violate the central domestic policy pledge of his campaign, read my lips, no new taxes. and called everybody out to camp david and agreed to a package that caused him to violate that promise. there are people now that say we need a moment like that and the republicans should give president obama some tax increases as long as they get from him significant spending cuts and a big deficit package. should the republicans learn from president george h. w. bush and cut a deal? >> i wouldn't put it that way, john. i think that the panel that's been appointed, the special debt reduction panel clearly has its work cut out for it. you have good people on that panel. they are going to have to come up with some kind of package that can gain broad support in this congress. >> conservatives are still furious at george h. w. bush. they say that's proof and why you have grover norquists of the world with their pledge that they we will never raise taxes. >> the notion of a big tax increase whatever the guise or the rationale is exactly the wrong thing to do in one of the worst recessions in modern times. >> there is a new book by ron suskin that is largely about the administration and i know you're not a fan of people who do tell-all books by people, but it goes back to the bush administration and quotes you in the 2002 midterms shouting down paul o'neill with the combination of bush tax cuts and price of the war in afghanistan and potential of the coming war in iraq at that point more needed to be done about deficits and quotes you as saying reagan proved deficits don't matter. do deficits matter? >> they do, definitely. >> did you say that? >> i said it within a different context. and i don't remember yelling at paul o'neill. paul and i ended up having our differences, but we're both relatively mild-spoken individuals, don't use a lot of foul language or cuss each other out, so to speak. no, what i was talking about was what president reagan did in his first term, when he came in and did two things on the surface seemed controversy, but turned out to be important. one, he significantly expanded spending on defense because our defenses were in terrible shape, and made it possible 10 years later to win the gulf war. and simultaneously, he cut taxes, partly in as part of tax reform. that combination did, in fact, increase the deficit, but both of those objectives were worthy and eventually, of course, we got the economy going fast enough with those tax cuts we grew our way out of the deficit problem. but to say deficits don't matter within that context i think was correct. obviously, today is a separate proposition. >> you write in the book about your efforts to dissuade then-governor bush from picking you as his running mate and the many steps you took to tell him you thought that was the wrong thing to do. i want to go back then, because as we watch what's happening now, normally the vice president becomes the leader of the party when the president leaves and the president knew you did not have presidential ambitions when he picked you. had he made a different choice, the party would be in a different place right now. you write in the book senator connie mack of florida said, no way, never speak to you again if you put me on that list. and you write mccain or powell were not on the list because they didn't need to be and he was either going to pick you or jamb kemp, the former senator. who else was on that list? >> that is something we treated as classified. i've never disclosed everybody on the list. >> this is a great time to do it. >> i didn't do it even in my book. >> why? >> because i really felt you go through that process. i had to go ask to see 10 years of tax returns and ask difficult, sometimes personal questions of the candidates we looked at. and i assured them that i would not violate the confidences that they shared with me. and in effect, what we did with most of the materials after we finished the review process was give them all back so that there wouldn't be a repository, for example, bush campaign headquarters or some place of sensitive information about a group of prominent national politicians. i thought i owed them that degree of confidence and i've done everything i can to maintain it. >> thank you. >> thank you, john. tonight, is this the most dangerous man in the world?