month. the good news, the unemployment rate fell to 8.2%. that's the lowest since february 2009, one month after president obama took office. and not surprisingly, republicans wasted no time in attacking the white house. mitt romney called it a weak and troubling jobs report and said, "millions of americans are paying a high price for president obama's economic policies." now, don't be shocked, president obama saw the glass half full. >> our economy's now created more than 4 million private sector jobs over the past two years. and more than 600,000 in the past three months alone. but it's clear to every american that there will still be ups and downs along the way and that we've got a lot more work to do. so let's cut through the political spin by adding some perspective. here's a look at the number of jobs in the usa since obama took office in 2009. now, we're not back to where we were, but we are objectively on the upswing. the great recession isn't over for many americans, but the trend still could be obama's friend. and a presidential election year, everything is political. and we can already see that this election will be fought on three fronts the economy, the middle class, and women, who were aggressively courted by both parties today. rnc chairman sharon day say, "president obama and his fellow democrats love to say they stand for women, but women can no longer stand for the obama economy." and the white house hosted a forum on women and the economy. president obama seizing on a similar opportunity. >> i do think that the conversation's been oversimplified. women are not some monolithic block. women are not an interest group. you shouldn't be treated that way. women are over half this country and its workforce. >> now, let's bring in james carville and elise jordan, columnist and former speechwriter for condoleezza rice. elise, starting with you, your party has a problem with women. polls show there's a 2-1 gap among women in swing states. and all the idiotic war on women rhetoric aside, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. there's been talk about planned parenthood, the personhood amendments, the contraception debate. what do you think your party can do to help bridge that gap back with women? >> i think what they did was a step in the right direction, by releasing -- doing an analysis on the numbers and showing how women have really suffered the most in this recession. so i think by focusing on an electing of pro-growth president who can help us, you know, improve the economy, i think that that's the way to do it. and also, i just would like to see some of these candidates step up to the plate when women are attacked. that romney, you know, i don't think romney has a woman problem, but it looks like he has a woman problem when he can't stand up to rush limbaugh. >> that's a great point. so the heart of your message is, it's the economy, stupid. and of course, james, that was your famous message in 1992. but here's my question for you. 8.2% is still significantly higher than the unemployment rate, 7.4%, under george h.w. bush when you ran clinton's campaign in 1992. so are democrats feeling a little bit of overconfidence right now? >> you know, i think they might be. and, look, i didn't think we were going to the produce 220,000 jobs a month that it was time to talk about progress in the economy. the second thing in the middle class. but people know we were losing 750,000 jobs a month when this president took office, so they're quite patient here. but i don't think these numbers are very good. i didn't think the numbers last month were that great. they were certainly better than anything we had before, and some patience required, but the president's right to say we need to double town and work with triple hard here. this has been a very, very, very tough recovery here. and it followed the worst financial crisis we've had since the great depression. and that's just a fact. and it can't be spun any other way. >> well, speaking of spin, elise, mitt romney gave his strong speech after winning wisconsin, and he tried to draw a very strong contrast. he's talking about barack obama's government-centered economy. here's a question. when he's going to such a play the base message, does that risk alienating general election voters at the same time he's trying to tie up the anonymous? -- trying to tie up the nomination? >> i think we'll just have to the look at the numbers. and the economy is really going to be such a huge deal in this election. and in '09, the white house said that if we enacted the $800 billion stimulus that unemployment should be at about 5.8% today. and we're just not there. and if those numbers look bad in august, september, october, obama really has a problem. >> james, i mean, do you think that governor romney could have a credibility gap if he keeps hitting these narratives hard, or is this just politics? >> i think it's a little bit of both. he has the lowest favorable of any challenger entering an election in the history of modern polling, i think i'm correct about that. and by the way, i think the obama people will point out his record in massachusetts, he had the 47th or 48th worst record in job creation when he was the governor of massachusetts. there's no doubt that this president inherited just a really nasty recession, maybe to some extent a depression, and this thing has been slow and it needs to be acknowledged. it's just tough out there for a lot of middle class families. >> particularly in the rust belt, that's why i want to ask you james about one bright spot in these numbers. american manufacturing seems to be coming back a bit. we've got 37,000 new manufacturing jobs. is that a good news for democrats when they face the rust belt fights in ohio and pennsylvania, or is that pain so deep it's not going to be sending a positive message about the economy anytime soon? >> i wouldn't call it good news, i would call it somewhat better news. but i think what the president needs to say is that why he has a jobs plan that has not been acted on by republicans. that's why we need to do more and that's why we need to get more of the work. i don't think any of this should actually be spun as good news. i think it should be spun as sort of challenging news. people know that. they give this president a great deal -- they cut him a great deal of slack in this. but i am not, even when the numbers are over 200,000, i don't think it's real smart to go out there and tout those as really good numbers. john, you and i are baseball fans and i know condoleezza rice is a sports fans, and you're only as good as the starting pitcher. and in presidential politics in an election year, you're only as good as last month's unemployment number. you don't know where it's going to go next month and you're kind of stuck with it. >> that's true. real quick, elise, can republicans win ohio and pennsylvania? >> maybe. >> maybe? >> time will tell. i'm not too sure yet. but i think they can if, you know, if the economy drops off. >> we'll see. >> this is an honest woman you have on here. >> we like honesty. well, the battle for congress is on. olympia snowe's seat is up for grabs. could an independent take it and shake up the senate? and then 100 years after the "titanic" went down, we show you amazing new video of the wreck. and the war on women, war on religion? maybe it's time to ask, war, what's it really good for? 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[ beeping ] ...to bring all the right results. it's the at&t network -- doing more with data to help business do more for customers. ♪ the race is on for control of the u.s. senate and one man in maine could be the deciding factor. now, democrats currently hold a slim six-seat majority, aided by two independents who vote with them. but there are 21 democratic seats open this year compared to just ten republican. the majority could come down to a single seat, which is why all eyes are on former two-term governor angus king, who's running as an independent on senator olympia snowe's seat. the latest polls show a commanding lead over both republican and democratic candidates. will king really stay independent or end up aligning himself with one of the parties. angus king is outfront tonight in the first national interview of his campaign. angus, thanks for being with us. here's my question -- >> john, good to be with you. welcome to maine. >> it's good to be there. with olympia snowe throwing in the towel, frustrated so much with the partisanship and polarization of the senate, what do you think you can accomplish up there by running as an independent? >> well, the way she left -- the way that she left the job is what really provoked me to run, john. because here's a senator with over 30 years of experience and seniority in congress, a great work ethic, integrity, and she said i can't get anything done, that's why i'm leaving. i heard that. and later on she talked about it being almost a parliamentary system in the senate, i said, we've got to try something different. we cannot continue to go down the road where we are, where it's all about partisan bickering and who's up and who's down, we've really got to try something else. that's why i'm going for it. i governed as an independent and i think i can go down and make some sense in washington as an independent. >> senator orrin hatch had this to say yesterday to politico, "we're probably going to lose the maine race because angus king is the most popular politician in maine. he'll caucus with the democrats, there's no question about that." angus, is he right or are you open to caucus with either party or neither party? >> well, he's right in the first half of what he said. that was a brilliant insight. at least i hope he's right. the second half, john, i can look you right in the eye and tell you i haven't made a decision. i'm not going to make a decision until i get down there. if i tell you right now i'm going to caucus with the republicans or the democrats, it defeats the purpose of what i want to do, which is steer a middle course and remain independent for as long as i possibly can. look, i'm not naive. i don't have illusions that i can go down there and mitch mcconnell and harry reid will put their arms around me and ask me how to solve these problems, but i think that i can go down and remain independent as long as possible. if it ends up that i have to join a caucus in order to be effective on behalf of maine, i don't want to go down and not be able to serve maine, but, you know, we're in sort of uncharted territory here. i've got a great app, john, i want to recommend to you on my iphone. it's called the usa manual. it's a 99-cent app. it's got the constitution, the bill of rights, great decisions, u.s. supreme court decisions. federalist papers. i went back and read the article about congress. i went back and read it and the word "caucus" does not appear and neither does the word "party." i want to be the pebble in the pond that starts a process of change. >> now, you were a two-term independent governor of maine. very rare thing, two-term independents. so out of all the skepticism you confronted going into office, what did you learn as governor that could apply to being an effective senator going forward? >> well, the first thing i learned -- well, i've got to back up for a minute. john, a lot of the articles that are being written now, an independent can't do anything, can't accomplish anything, all those same articles were written while i was running for governor as an independent. same stories. and by the way, and notice who they interviewed. i asked the question, can an independent be effective? they always asked the party people. what are they going to say, heck no! the main thing i learned from being an independent is, it's really great to not have to check with somebody before you make up your mind. i only want to be able to check with the people of maine. my deal is, nobody in washington tells me how to vote, except the people of maine. and that's a luxury -- i didn't realize that going in as an independent governor, how that was going to liberty me on how to make my decisions, not who's loyal to this party or that party or what the majority leader wants me to do, i was able to just call them as i see them. that was my political motto. sometimes i sided with the democrats, sometimes i sided with the republicans, sometimes they were both mad at me at the same time. but i was trying to make those independent decisions and that's, you know, this isn't some strange idea. the united states senate as recently as 15 or 20 years ago operated on the principle of people trying to solve problems. this lockup that we've got now is relatively recent. here's an amazing thing, john. you're not going to believe this. when ed muskie, the great senator from maine, moved through the clean air act in 1970, it passed the united states senate unanimously. i mean, think of that. those folks today couldn't agree on what time it is unanimously. >> that is true. governor king, thank you very much for your time and your first national interview. a navy fighter jet crashes into an apartment complex. we have dramatic video. and 100 years after the "titanic" sank, we take you to the wreck and show you what the ship looks like today. yesterday was major league baseball's opening day. attendance has been on the decline since 2007, but there's good news. which brings us to tonight's number. 334,424. that's the number of people who went to a baseball game yesterday. now, that works out to more than 41,000 people per game. it's great news for america's pastime. a new season is a time for new beginnings. even cubs fans can hope that this is their year. and the last six times kentucky won the ncaa tournament, as they did this year, the yankees have won the world series. bottom line, play ball. springtime is here. next sunday marks 100 years since the "titanic" sank, killing more than 1,500 people. as the world's most famous shipwreck approaches its centennial, experts are raising serious concerns about its conditions. earlier this week, erin spoke to bob ballard, the man who discovered the ship's final resting place more than 25 years ago, about its quest to save what's left of this ship of dreams. >> you know, i didn't go at it with some -- i was not a "titanic" groupie. i saw it as a challenge. but when i found it, it really spoke to me. and what spoke to me the most, you know, i'm down there in the submarine and i'm driving around and everything about the "titanic" is huge, the bow, the boilers, and i come across where all the bodies landed. and that stopped me in my tracks. see, after the "titanic" sank and it went to the bottom, hundreds of people were trying to survive. and they were freezing to death and they died. hundreds of people died. and many of them didn't have life jackets and all those bodies, people forget that, came raining down on to the bottom. now, the animals found the bodies, they ate the flesh, their bones were exposed, the deep sea's under saturated in calcium carbonate and dissolve, but everywhere you see are pairs of shoes that were attached to those bodies. >> so all the bones are gone, but the shoes are there. >> they're their tombstones and you see a pair of mother's shoes and next to her are her daughter's shoes. boom! i mean, that hit me like a freight train. and the moment i saw that, i said, you know, we don't touch this site. and i've been totally opposed -- you don't go to gettysburg with a shovel. you don't take belt buckles off the arizona. why can't the "titanic" get the same respect that those ships or those battlefields get? and when i started meeting with the survivors, talking to the ones that lost their loved ones, talking to the people that built the ship, belfast is doing an amazing exhibit. we're doing one at mystic aquarium, but what we're doing is we're telling the story not so much of the ship, this piece of metal, but the people that were on it, and the bottom of the ocean speaks to you when you're down there. it's amazing. i didn't expect -- i'm a scientist. i'm not supposed to be touched by such things. it knocked me off my feet. >> it was an -- >> very, very powerful experience. >> you think that this could be a museum. >> oh, it is already. the question is, there's no lock on the door. there's nothing protecting it. >> but how can you bring it -- you describe it so eloquently with the shoes, the mother and the child, but how can you bring that to -- >> by passing a law that senator kerry, just in the last few days -- so we're having our effect -- introduced a law into the senate to protect the "titanic." to give the old law teeth. we're hoping that other countries will sign it -- we only need two countries to sign it right now, russia and france. those are submarines that are going down there and doing the damage. >> you are a person who has brought these pieces of history to life. and the fact you can that turn that ship and the stories that we've all heard into that image is a pretty incredible thing. and i know you're going to be doing that possibly again with amelia earhart. you're talking about you have a 15-year-old daughter -- >> i have been asked by senator clinton to advise the team, rick gillespie and the tiger group are going out in july, and this new data has really collapsed the search area. so they've got a good shot and i wish them fair winds and a following sea. >> you were explaining how it happened, there was a picture from 1937 -- >> a picture from 1937, three months after amelia disappeared. they were photographing this island called gardner island, not even thinking about her, they saw a ship up on the reef, and everyone's looking at the ship, and over in the left-hand corner was a little something. and the secretary of state and assistant secretary of state, kirk campbell, gave analysts, real special analysts, this image. didn't tell them anything. >> cia? >> well, you never know. real good analysts that can see golf balls on a golf course from way up far, day gave them the image and didn't tell them what it was, and said, what is it? they did their crunching and they said, i don't know where you got that picture, but that's a lockheed electrolanding gear from the 190s. well, that was her plane. the search area that was thousands of square miles collapsed to a very small area. so i wish them luck. it's worth looking and it's being privately financed, so we're not wasting government money, and i think they got a good shot at it. >> with the save the "titanic" with bob ballard" premieres monday april 9th at 10:00 p.m. eastern on the national geographic channel. we're just getting word there's breaking news in the trayvon martin case. we'll bring that to you right after the break. ncer ] lately, there's been a seismic shift in what passes for common sense. used to be we socked money away and expected it to grow. then the world changed... and the common sense of retirement planning became anything but common. fortunately, td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. take control by opening a new account or rolling over an old 401(k) today, and we'll throw in up to $600. how's that for common sense? but when she got asthma, all i could do was worry ! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different. we have access to great specialists, and our pediatrician gets all the information. everyone works as a team. and i only need to talk to one person about her care. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. breaking news on trayvon martin. the 17-year-old who was fatally shot last month by neighborhood volunteer watchman george zimmerman. let's get right to ashleigh banfield who's in for anderson cooper tonight. ashleigh, you just spoke to a witness to the shooting. what did she say? >> i did. i was actually quite transpired about a difference in her account about what happened the night that she saw what happened as trayvon martin was shot dead. earlier she has said to us that it was very difficult to make out what was going on, about 25 feet from her window. but one of the things that she told us, john, was that the police did not seem interested in how much she wanted to tell them. she told us that she asked the the police if she could take them to the location where it happened and kind of reenact a little bit about what she saw happen, and they seemed very disinterested and did not go to the location with her, again, outside of her window. she also said that she had called 911 and she talked to 911 all the way through this account, even holding the phone up to her window so that they could hear the yelling. and then, john, surprisingly, she also said that this week, just two days ago, she's finally had a chance to talk to the state attorney, that officials from the state attorney's office have now finally shown up and asked her some questions. and it did not go the way that she and her attorney thought. >> have police commented on this witness? >> no, not yet. other than to say that they're not commenting on the case at all, because it's been taken over by the state attorney. one thing you might be surprised at, the state attorney has a varied job here, john. they have a couple of jobs they have to do. number one, they have to look at the case itself. they're essentially taking over the investigation from the sanford police department, but they're also looking into whether anything went wrong with the investigation with the sanford police department. you would think that the interview would be very long, if you have an actual witness in the case. and this person says she saw it all. granted, it was a long way away, 25 feet, maybe not so long, but granted it was dark. but she did witness this incident play out. when i join you shortly, you're going to find out how long the interview actually was and what she and her attorney thinks about that. >> and there were multiple witnesses, right, ashleigh? >> hard to say. a lot of people, john, called 911. how many people had a vantage point? that's going to be critical. not every piece of information that's come out about this case has come out about this case. a lot of that could be protected and privileged information right now. it might be in the per view of the sanford police department, it might be something that only the state attorneys know at this point. one thing we can say for sure, a lot of people seem to think they know what transpired between these two parties the night that trayvon martin died, but clearly there's a lot we don't know. >> thank you, ashleigh. look forward to hearing more. now to the "outfront" five, stories we care about where we focus on our own reporting. up first, breaking news. the military coup in mali could soon be over. the mali state television announced moments ago the leader of the coup and leader of west african states have reached a deal. under the deal, the coup leaders will hand over power to the civilian government. in return, economic and trade sanctions will be lifted. the deal provides the framework for the return to constitutional rule under a yet to be named interim leader. number two, a navy fighter crashed today in virginia beach, virginia. the navy said the hornet had just taken off from a nearby navy base when it suffered a mechanical malfunction. the two pilots ejected before the jet slammed into an apartment building. seven people, including the two crew members, were hurt in the crash. at this hour, everyone but one of the pilots have been treated and released. number three, a marine corps board has recommended that sergeant gary stein be dismissed for questioning president obama's authority. stein has posted on facebook is that mr. obama is the domestic enemy our oath speaks of and he said he'd deny orders given by the president. he later clarified that he would refuse illegal orders. stein says the military is using him as an example. a final decision on the recommendation is expected next week. number four, one of the winners of last week's mega millions jackpot has come forward to claim the prize. they have chosen to remain anonymous. the person's ticket worth $218 million before taxes. now, there are still two other winning tickets out there, one sold in maryland and the other in illinois. it has been 246 days since the u.s. lost its top credit rating. what are we doing to get it back? the government added 120,000 jobs in march. every little bit helps to get the economy back on track, but we still have a long way to go. well, we just learned a few hours ago that house majority leader eric cantor donated $25,000 to a super pac with a mission to oust incumbent members of congress, including members of cantor's own party. it's a story first reported by the capitol hill newspaper "roll call." the super pac is called the campaign for primary accountability and it was founded by two texans. one a wealthy construction engineer the other a philanthropist. the super pac has already spent more than $1 million targeting seven incumbents this year and successfully ousted two of them from office. it has its sights set on eight others in the upcoming races and says it has a dozen more on its watch list. i spoke with the cofounders a short time ago and i started by asking them, how do they decide who to target? >> there's four criteria. the first one is a safe seat, because that's where all the power is in congress. it's in these incumbents that win in the general election without really any competition. it's either a republican or democratic district. so it's got to be a safe seat. we're looking right now at long-term incumbents. so someone who's a freshman really doesn't have much power or influence in washington. we want to go at the heart of the issue. the third is, there has to be a credible challenger, right? congress is not an entry-level position, it's a serious job. the fourth is, they have to be popular in their district. so we go in and do polling, and if the people in that district want a different representative or a choice, then we engage. if they're happy with what they've got, if we tell them what their incumbent's been doing and they're like, well, with i'm okay with that, i want to re-elect that person, we don't engage. the system is working there. >> you're head of a group called u.s. term limits last decade. so this is an extension of that fight, correct? so if term limits were in place, the need for this pac would presumably be diminished. for example, if there was redistricting reform and seats? >> and this is better than term limits. term limits was a kind of one-size-fits-all, we'll take care of the seniority system, and everybody goes, kind of regardless of what the voters in the districts think. now, 80% of people wanted it, so it would have been a good thing to do. we can't get it without the permission of congress. one of the parameters we set, we're going to operate within the rules as they are. the greatest puzzle in american politics is how can we have this 9% approval rate you mentioned and have 90% re-election rates? it's a huge puzzle. and we studied this for a couple years and found out that basically one party's districts, that's 85% of the country. if there's no primary competition, they own the seat. >> so one of the craters that -- so one of the criterias that you listed is going after entrenched incumbents and favoring the newer, fresher faces. one of the democrats race you played in, with actually the side you weighed in on would have benefited dennis kucinich, who had been in office since 1996. how did you make that decision, considering not only is he an entrenched incumbent, but one of the most liberal members of congress. >> we chose that district based on the fact it was predominantly marcy captor's district. we didn't know whether kucinich was going to run in that district or not. he decided to run. now, 30 years versus 16 years, you know, you can make the argument that that's sort of, you know, not exactly an anti-incumbent play. but we were going after the longer term, more entrenched incumbent in that district. and the reality is that our activities made her come back to the district, in a way that she had not had to do in many, many years. she had very little challenge in previous cycles and she had to reengage with the voters and she had to listen to them and she had to ask for their vote and she did, and she won. and we're fine with that. we're not here to pursue a policy agenda. we're looking for governance reform. >> let's talk about another republican incumbent you're talking, tim murphy. suburban pennsylvania, swing district, he's a veteran. why target him? >> well, it's not a swing district. that's a safe republican district. >> suburban philadelphia? >> you just need to look at the district makeup. that's a safe republican district. so we're engaging in that because there's a good, credible challenger. >> a tea party activist. >> yeah, who's a credible challenger. so we're leveling the playing field. the incumbent gets to raise all the money from the lobby and the special interests and have this message monopoly. we're coming in to level the playing field. and letting the voters decide. >> and murphy's attacking us as pro-obama, which is kind of fun -- which is kind of funny. but we're not the issue. their problem is 10% approval. that's their problem. >> "roll call" is reporting today that you received money from a pac associated with republican house majority leader eric cantor. you're taking on members of his conference and presumably backing newer tea party members against more establishment republicans. that is definitely taking a side within an ideological and faction fight within the republican party. >> look, we are delighted that the house leadership of the gop shares our vision of creating real competition for entrenched incumbents. i mean, that's so forward thinking of them. you know, this idea that committee chairs and house leadership ought to actually have to compete for the support of their district. we applaud their foresight. >> so when the pac says that eric cantor gave money to you, it was going to be explicitly to favor these newer tea party members against more establishment members of their over conference, committee chairs and elsewhere? >> no, we are very clear about what our criteria are, what our vision is. there's no earmarking of those dollars. they flowed in, we told everyone who the races we are engaging in. they looked that the and said, hey, that's a race we would like to engage in. >> eric cantor's office responded and said his pac did, indeed, give the $25,000 to your super pac, your organization, but with the explicit understanding that that money was only supposed to go to adam kinzinger. is that -- that seems like that's news to you, because you said it was in one general fund. >> it's news to me. i mean, i don't know what their expectation was, but i've never talked to anyone in their office. i don't know what their expectations were. for us, it came in, it went into our super pac, and we spent it on the activity that was underway. >> so that conversation never happened or never got transmitted to you? >> not to me. >> i didn't talk to anyone in that office either. >> eric cantor's office sent us a statement reiterating that he believes his donation would only be used for that specific campaign. regarding the super pac itself, they say, "leader cantor does not support the actions of this organization in any other election." "outfront" spoke to campaign finance expert and attorney matthew sanderson who says it is possible for donors like eric cantor to earmark their donations for a specific purpose, but both the donor and super pac would have to mutually agree on those conditions, which as you just heard, the super pac says was not the case. we invite representative cantor to appear on the program next week to talk more about this and we hope he'll accept. "outfront" next, dozens more killed in syria today. we bring you an update. and tonight's guest says it's time to dump the church and just follow jesus. 8% every 10 years. wow. wow. but you can help fight muscle loss with exercise and ensure muscle health. i've got revigor. what's revigor? it's the amino acid metabolite, hmb to help rebuild muscle and strength naturally lost over time. [ female announcer ] ensure muscle health has revigor and protein to help protect, preserve, and promote muscle health. keeps you from getting soft. [ major nutrition ] ensure. nutrition in charge! detroit just narrowly avoided a state takeover of its finances. and even though the economy is improving, municipal and county bankruptcies are looming across the nation. mayor anthony williams, former mayor of washington, d.c. is with us along with cnn contributor will cain. mayor williams, what do you think about detroit's deal? >> i think it's a good deal. i think you need the state intervention whenever you're in a situation where a city has run out of cash, investors, creditors are going to look for a new management situation. so you need a state intervention. this provides that. at the same time, it's got to be the city's leadership that leads a recovery. and that's what this should be about. it should be about recovery, not just downsizing. >> but this is just one example, a prominent example of a growing national problem. we've had five cities and counties, including harrisburg p.a. and jefferson county that have functionally declared bankruptcy since 2008. and if you look at the list of cities that are on the brink, there are some major players here. san diego along with detroit, yonkers, scranton, providence. so this is a growing problem. so, will, my question is, we've got the economy improving, and yet we're seeing more and more states at the brink. is this a sign that the stimulus bill, to some extent, was a band-aid on local budgets? >> yeah, the stimulus bill delayed many cities from dealing with the core problem. one of core problems are these lavish pension benefits from -- for their employees. and the stimulus put off the day of reckoning to deal with that. you see, when the good times were here, in the boom days, these cities didn't just build minor league ballparks, they gave away big, big contracts to the pensions and you can't maintain that in an economic downturn. >> mayor, and both of y'all, as will just said, the pension obligations, it's true. and salaries for private sector unions -- >> but also property taxes. >> exactly right. you've got property taxes eroding, decreased funding from state and federal governments. >> that train's broken down. >> so what do we do about it? how do we solve this problem, which is increasingly endemic across the country? >> i think one of the most important things for a city to do is to provide a settled playing field, a level playing field, settle expectations for investment, so businesses and residents want to be in that city in a livable situation. and i've always said that revolves around the public. public trust. can i pay my bills, you know, my finances. public safety, public education. >> that's the basis. will, what's your prescription type? >> you've got to renegotiate these contracts. these union contracts and pension benefits. you have to. i know it's hard. it's firemen, policemen, people we love, but you have to do. >> marion barry is back in the news. he's notorious for making intemperate comments, but i want to get your reaction on his most recent remarks. >> -- these asians coming in, opening up businesses in dirty shops. they ought to go. i'm just saying that right now. >> what do you have to say about that? >> first of all, let's say from the bottom line, it's a disgraceful, just repugnant comment. i think the mayor ought to know better. you know, he's a legitimate civil rights leader. i think he ought to know better. and i think he needs to give, i think, the public and the city a better apology as well. >> unexpected or par for the course? >> i don't know about unexpected or par for the course. it's just a reprehensible comment. >> it sure is. thank you both for being with us on an important issue. well, now to tonight's outer circle, where we reach out to our sources around the world. first to syria. at least 48 people were killed in clashes friday as opposition groups say continued attacks by the military are forcing people to flee the country. all of this happening just days before the syrian government's deadline to pull troops out of major cities and towns. ivan watson has been covering this story from istanbul. ivan, how many refugees have poured into turkey in just the last day or so? >> authorities have seen a record number of syrian refugees fleeing across the border, more than 2,700 in a 24-hour period. and the turks are complaining, saying they're seeing military operations taking place, backed by helicopters, this despite a syrian government promise to the united nations that it will withdraw forces from syrian cities and towns by tuesday of next week. instead, it looks like it's trying to kill as many people as possible before that withdrawal takes place. john? >> thank you, ivan. millions of americans tonight are celebrating good friday and the first night of passover, including our politicians, who all too often seem to invoke god as a way to make a political point. >> if i'm willing to give something up, as someone who's been extraordinarily blessed, give up some of the tax breaks that i enjoy, i actually think that's going to make economic sense. but for me as a christian, it also coincides with jesus' teaching that from to whom much is given, much shall be required. >> many of the christian faith have said, well, that's okay. you know. contraception's okay. it's not okay. it's a license to do things of a sexual -- in the sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be. >> now the politization of religion has become a distractship and division. shouldn't we focus on the original man jesus? andrew sullivan asked that this question in this week's "newsweek" and he's out front with us tonight. one of the key points of your article is the contemporary rez dent -- residents of the bible and what is the relevance, the resonance here today? >> here you see one of the greatest americans of all time, looking fearlessly at the new text ament and instead of or believing it should guide our politics wants to see in it the truth about how he should live his life. what he does is he reads that new testament and he finds the words of jesus that leap out at him as the most sublime words and morals that he's ever heard and he literally cuts them out of the bible in a razor. there's one bible which is full of holes and another one where he's painstakingly glued these passages in to create a whole new testament. a quite amazing thing. and he's saying what did this jesus person, forgetting about the encumbrances over the years, what did he tell us how to live? what is the way to live our lives under his commands? i think that's something that in our politicized climate, taking it back to the person, taking it back to the spiritual, tank it back to ourselves, i think is a marvelous example. and although you can disagree with what jefferson did with the bible, i think finding the spirit of how to live up with's life in it is a wonderful tonic given how politicized our religion has become. >> fast forward to today and the separation of church and state is an increasingly controversial concept in our modern politics. i wonder what you think of this in light of this comment i'm going to play for you from mitt romney. >> in recent years the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond the original meaning. they seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of god. religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in private life. it's as if they're intent on establishing a new religion in america, the religion of secularism. they're wrong. >> andrew, what do you think of that? >> secularism does not mean a religion. it means we translate it into arguments that could be understood and accepted or disagreed with by people of other faiths or no faith at all. in other words, when we enter the public square and we engage in public arguments we should use arguments that everybody can engage with and aren't dependent on your god versus somebody else's god. religion people can be in the public square in the way that jesus was not by trying to be a politician, but by bearing witness to what jesus wanted us to be, by the church serving the poor and homeless and giving up lives in service to others, by spiritual reflection. those things can be out there. we can talk about the faith and absolutely should. but when we use it to control others rather than to transform ourselves, i think we're blaspheming against the truth that should be kept out of the politics. especially when it gets down to health care law and so on and so forth. >> sure. andrew, one of the points you make in the essay, that the millennial generation identifies themselves as being spiritual but they don't associate with organized religions so much. what do you think the great faiths can do to rebuild this bond? >> i think not only that is true, but the fastest growing group in america i believe are atheists. i think when i go to colleges or when i talk to younger people, what i fear is when they heard the word christianity, they hear homophobia, they hear intolerance. they hear phobias about sex. they think of priests raping children. they think of evangelicals making lots of money. they think of the prosperity gospel which inverts jesus' teaching and they turn away. they don't know it. they don't like it. and they're right not to like it. i think what we have to do as oshd, faithful christians is bypass those statements in public, communicate our faith through what we do and how we are by example and not by our lecturing. i think it's that kind of moral example that jesus exemplified, that the great saints exemplified. they brought more people to them than any preacher or lecturer or politician. >> andrew sullivan, thank you very much. have the republicans really declared a war on women? we take a look, next. there is a lot of talk about a war on women and religion. usually by democrats and republicans trying to score political points and polarized the nation. here's the problem. we are at the end of a decade of real wars. men and women of the armed forces have sacrificed their lives and to inflame every debate by calling it a war diminishes the service of our soldiers and distorts the truth.
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