deterrent for putin and do you think they should be welcome if, in fact, they do want to join? >> well, if finland and sweden want to join nato, there is little doubt that nato -- the instrument he's chosen to try to get what he wants, a threat of a military invasion in europe is likely to strengthen nato, to make it more likely that nato is -- gets closer to the borders, has more military equipment there and bring in more members, finland and sweden, and perhaps break the debt log even on the question of whether ukraine at some point should be a member of nato, which at the moment nato is divided on, but if russia acts in the way that it is threatening to act, even that question comes on the table. so the very thing he's trying to avoid may come about by the action he's taking and i hope he thinks about those consequences before deciding to take military