use. we want to build tools that anyone can be able to communicate security will on. not necessarily a bad thing, encryption helps with bank accounts. encryption helps dissidents be able to communicate in a secure way, but it does good and oftentimes as we're seeing here, allows for secure communications for terrorists. >> however, then it becomes, howard, an issue of all sorts of privacy issues that come up and it's interesting to get your perspective, because you not only were the cyber czar for obama and bush, also microsoft. you've been on both sides of this debate over how we keep these systems secure for companies and regular citizens like ourselves, but also allow government to track and keep these terrorists from furthering their propaganda. >> yes, it's interesting. when i was a federal agent, i've really, really wanted to ban encryption, because it affected us and our ability to investigate a case. then i went to microsoft