to get to one place. and that is to have ukrainians investigate joe biden. the other interesting point we've heard day after day, chris, is that this was a policy disagreement. that the bureaucrats are trying to undermine the president because they didn't like his policy. and we know from covering washington all these buildings around us, all these different agencies, state, pentagon, they can be at cross purposes sometimes if they disagree with policy. that's a real thing. the difference here is not what they would have you believe is the loyalty test. the difference is saying, no, the president was pursuing a policy that was about investigating another american, a political opponent. that goes beyond policy differences. >> it's not a policy. >> right. >> it is not an official policy. >> there were huge policy differences within the government, in the iraq war. you know, and you saw leaking and you saw disagreements play out, not like this. >> this is different. >> this isn't the president's feelings about nato and i'm not going to be as nice until everybody else is. you may not know it but that's his call. this is about whether gordon