Transcripts For BBCNEWS The Million Pound Disability... 20200311

Ways about it. And its had to pay out almost £1 million of public money to its own disabled employees. The dwp is constantly paying out tribunal claims around disability, someone tribunal claims around disability, someone ought to be asking the question, is something fundamentally wrong going on here . Wales, home to 57 year old harry calcott a nd wales, home to 57 year old harry calcott and his family. Whats that over there . Wheres that . Anglesey. Anglesey, yeah. Like nearly 8 Million People of working age in the uk, barry is disabled. It was lovely, sitting on the wall, the anglesey wall. Barry has been diagnosed with a serious panic and anxiety disorder. At times it can get so bad it can trigger life threatening asthma attacks. Im a chronic asthmatic and ive always suffered from stress and anxiety. Anxiety can make you sort of panicky and bring on an asthma attack. The attacks that come on suddenly and violently are the ones you can die from. For over 30 years, barry worked in finance at the department for work and pensions. Why did you take the job . What was going on here at that time . Well, basically, it was a good job. I felt fine, well, basically, it was a good job. Ifelt fine, quite well, basically, it was a good job. I felt fine, quite fortunate really to have thejob. Barrys anxiety was under control and his employer moved him to a new job. I basically told him that the job. I basically told him that the job i was doing i couldnt do because of my disabilities. I provided evidence from my gp. Their own Occupational Health service told me unless they remove me from the environment i was working in, it would be to the detriment of my health. Things came to a head when barry was forced to spend the day in a small room. I was told i needed to go on a training course. It was in a very small room and there was about 12 people. I told small room and there was about 12 people. Itold my line small room and there was about 12 people. I told my line manager, small room and there was about 12 people. Itold my line manager, i told the Business Manager i wouldnt be able to attend that course because i suffered from panic attacks. I was basically told if i didnt do it then i would be disciplined, so i attended the course. I wasnt taking anything in. Ijust had this overwhelming feeling ofi ijust had this overwhelming feeling of i had to get out of the room. I just collapsed to the floor. I thought at first i was having a heart attack. I had this tremendous crushing pain in my chest. I couldnt breathe. I realise then it was an asthma attack. Im not a religious person but i was praying, i was praying. Please, god, religious person but i was praying, iwas praying. Please, god, dont make me die, dont make me die now and the next thing i was in the back ofan ambulance and the next thing i was in the back of an ambulance and they were rushing me to the hospital. Despite knowing barry had been admitted to hospital, the very next day his managers called him asking to know where he was. |j day his managers called him asking to know where he was. I told them id had such a bad asthma attack yesterday, i thought youd realise i wouldnt be in work. What did you make of that . I was astounded vi was gobsmacked. I cant put into words how upsetting it was. The department for work and pensions should be second to none in understanding the needs of people with disabilities. Even its own website boasts of being the Government Department responsible for. 11,000 of the dwps 11,000 of the dwps workforce are disabled, so it seems theyd be the ideal Government Department to spearhead disability confidence, a National Scheme designed to motivate other employers to take on more staff with disabilities. If you want to employ disabled people, i would advise you to contact your localjob centre and speak to a disability employment adviser. There youre going to get all the advice you need and access to ground. If you want to employ disability people and get adjustments, be disability confident. As pa rt of confident. As part of the disability confident scheme, the dwp assessed its own Employment Practices and proudly declared that. 0ne one of the countrys leading disability dissemination lawyers believes there is a widespread and institutional problem in the uk. I got into disability discrimination law because of my own personal history, which was i was born with a heart problem and i became quite conscious of how difficult it is to mix work and being unwell. There is a very thinly veiled contempt for people who have disabilities. Instead of thinking, 0h, we might wa nt to instead of thinking, 0h, we might want to do more for these people to help them out and remove the barriers that come with certain types of disability, just seems to be contempt and disdain. Disabled people are nearly three times more likely to be unemployed than those without a disability, so in 2010 the equality act was brought in to make it illegal for employers to discriminate on the grounds of disability. It also compelled employers to make reasonable adjustments to help disabled people remain in employment. The equality act is about removing barriers and limiting barriers in the workplace, so limiting barriers in the workplace, so it could be anything, its the obvious things like widening doorways for wheelchairs, but also it could be things like where there are glass partitions in an office, they really cause a problem for someone they really cause a problem for someone who is visually impaired. They really cause a problem for someone who is visually impairedm would be to change them from being a glass partition to some other kind of partition. Six months after his life threatening asthma attack, barrie was moved to a role which he found less stressful, but barrie still took the dwp to a tribunal for disability discrimination. The main thing that came out of it was this horrible e mail. The main thing that came out of it was this horrible email. He was shocked at the contempt his managers had for him. A whinger. It was one of the words written in the e mail that my senior manager wrote. Second tired of reading about reasonable adjustments, sick and tired of reading about disabilities. Hes a whinger. The trialjudge ruled the dwp had discriminated against barrie and awarded him £26,000. Thejudge described his and awarded him £26,000. The judge described his treatment as wholly inexcusable and recommended his managers at the dwp undertake Disability Awareness training. Its the dwp managers that have done this to me, theyve ruined my health, theyve ruined my career. I wont be able to work again. And barrie is not alone. Despite its stated aim of encouraging disabled people at work, the department for work and pensions has a shocking track record of discriminating against its own disabled employees. Panorama has carried out an in depth analysis of every employment tribunal of an employer who is been accused of disability discrimination. We can reveal that between 2016 and 2019, the dwp has had to defend 134 claims of discrimination against its own disabled employees. The dwp lost 17 of these cases, and thats more than any other public or private sector employer in great britain. So, the dwp lose around 13 of their employment tribunal cases for disability. Does that say anything to you . Its quite statistically significant to say that they lose 13 of cases because the average win rate for a disability discrimination case is around 3 . Do you think this might be indicative of something going on within the department for work and pensions . Im always a little bit wary of statistics, but i think in this particular case, the numbers are quite compelling, and the level of claims being brought for disability discrimination against the dwp is quite high. To me, that can only suggest that there is something quite fundamentally systemically wrong within the culture of the organisation. There is a horrible irony that the organisation that is designed to look after the more vulnerable members of our society is constantly falling foul of the equality act around disability. At the very same time this was happening, the dwp was launching a nationwide initiative called Community Partners. The dwp recruited 200 people who had what they described as lived experience of disability to train its Job Centre Staff to encourage more disabled people into work. Phil samphire, who has cerebral palsy, was one of the first to join. There is a fear amongst disabled people and the dwp. Theres no two ways about it. And myjob was to get a better understanding between the two different groups. The whole thing about Community Partners was they wanted external people to inform the dwp how to engage better. Phil was sent for an Occupational Health assessment, which recommended the dwp should provide him with voice activated software for his computer. So your management were given an Occupational Health report that the dwp paid for that specified certain reasonable adjustments in the form of Software Capability . Yes, yes, yeah. In 12 months did you ever receive any . I was made to feel like i was just asking for things because i could. Phil never got the reasonable adjustments he needed from the dwp. He also believes the Community Partners scheme was not taken seriously. Did you find yourself being listened to . No, no. Sometimes from individual staff members, yeah, but not from management. I. Ithink individual staff members, yeah, but not from management. I. I think it looks good on paper saying you employ disabled people to advise you how to deal with disabled people, but i didnt want to hear what could the fixed, they just wanted to but i didnt want to hear what could the fixed, theyjust wanted to hear what was going well. It was very much a tick box exercise where you just had to say everything was fine at the dwp, like, jobs done. Panorama has spoken to other former Community Partners who didnt want to be interviewed on camera. Several told us the scheme was badly thought through. More worryingly, there were claims in some dwp staff had little empathy for disabled people. In march 2018, having spent over £16 million, the dwp decided not to extend the Community Partners scheme beyond its planned two years. 0ne dwp employee has witnessed at first hand the poor attitudes some of his colleagues had towards disabled people. He still works as a benefits processor in the department and doesnt want to be identified. Ive heard comments about reasonable adjustments. Why does this person have this equipment . Why does this person get to adjust their working pattern . Why does this person need to use the disabled left . They like to use the disabled left . They like to be seen as being an equal opportunity s employer, so they employ disabled people but then on day one its almost like theyre trying to get that person to resign or be able to get that person on a disability. Sounds like they dont wa nt disability. Sounds like they dont want disabled people to work there because theyre a nuisance, would that be a Fair Assessment . It is a Fair Assessment. 0nce those disabled people are imposed, they are then subject to overzealous attendance Management Procedures and overzealous Management Practices regarding their disabilities. A barrister with extensive experience in disability despair nation cases worries that far too Many Employers are failing their disabled workers. 0ne disabled workers. One of the most common things that i come across is the reluctance around reasonable adjustments, and an ignorance around reasonable adjustments, that disabled people are in some way getting favourable treatment that other people should be getting as well, and its insidious and it displays a complete lack of understanding of what disability is and how important it is for disabled people to have the very basic tools to enable them to work, and there is no attempt at ensuring that people understand what adjustments are, either in the workplace or outside of the workplace, and that contributes to that hostility. In newcastle, Fiona Alexander works for the department for work and pensions. Although being diagnosed with diabetes, chronic back pain and a serious heart condition, fiona was proud to be holding down a governmentjob. Proud to be holding down a government job. After the heart attack, and the other issues ive got, could be a stay at home person, but im not like that. I wa nt to person, but im not like that. I want to be out there, i want to be working, i want to be reductive in society. I dont want to be a drain. For more than three years, fiona was happy with her desk job for more than three years, fiona was happy with her deskjob at the dwp. Then came a restructure, and fiona was moved to a more physically demanding role. She began to worry about this new job demanding role. She began to worry about this newjob could have on her health. So her managers arranged for fiona to have an Occupational Health assessment. The Occupational Health referral tea m assessment. The Occupational Health Referral Team said that it was too physicalfor me, Referral Team said that it was too physical for me, and Referral Team said that it was too physicalfor me, and i should have a desk based job. This was ignored, so i still carried on and i ended up getting sciatica. Two years ago, fiona was prescribed strong painkillers for her sciatica, and her doctors warned her about the side effect of the drug, in particular, drowsiness and confusion. In the morning, it was very ha rd to confusion. In the morning, it was very hard to get up. I should have called in sick, but because they dont want to be off sick, they crawled out of my bed, sent a text to my manager to let her know i wasnt well, but i was coming and. I went straight to my manager and told her it was starting new medication andi her it was starting new medication and i wasnt feeling right. I didnt feel competent, and if i had said i didnt feel competent, did feel my manager will try to discipline me in some way. Fiona lived to regret her decision to struggle into work that morning. Within hours, she had made serious mistakes including sending e mails to the wrong people and not password protecting them. The dwp dismissed herfor password protecting them. The dwp dismissed her for gross password protecting them. The dwp dismissed herfor gross misconduct. With nojob, fiona was reduced to using a pawnbrokerjust be to pay her mortgage. I was sacked 20th of december. But fiona is convinced her m ista kes december. But fiona is convinced her mistakes had been influenced by the drugs she was taking, so fiona decided to take the dwp to a tribunalfor decided to take the dwp to a tribunal for discrimination. Decided to take the dwp to a tribunalfor discrimination. But fiona has no money to pay for a lawyer. Her only option is to try to learn enough about Employment Law in order to represent herself in front of thejudge. Order to represent herself in front of the judge. Unfair dismissal. Tribunal handbook. Fiona has spent hours in the local library, getting her legal case ready, before she faces her old employer at tribunal. It has been very difficult. Ive had ten months of preparing and reading, looking for any case that might be releva nt, looking for any case that might be relevant, and then having to check that i am actually writing everything in law terms rather than normal speak. Its not becoming an expert, its becoming a fighter. Bringing a case to a tribunal can be a slow, laborious process, and it is quite hard for individuals. I think there are very few people who have been through that process who wouldnt say it is incredibly stressful and it can be really dominating the peoples lives. Lots of people who maybe havent had stress to begin with, develop stress during the process. Every time the dwp loses the case, public money they used to pay the compensation. Hi, charlotte. A. Come on and. One of the biggest pay outs made by the dwp for discrimination was awarded to former benefits worker, charlotte. What was yourjob . Personal independence payment decision maker. That is a payment thatis decision maker. That is a payment that is paid to disabled people in or out of work. So, you are the person that received the assessment, and then you made the decision. We we re and then you made the decision. We were called the decision makers. Charlotte claims her colleagues had a cynical attitude towards some disabled claimants which created an unpleasant atmosphere for disabled workers like herself. They were quite nasty, when people would be discussing certain claimants, you would have people talking, they would have people talking, they would be like, im not giving it to them. Some of the disabilities, people wouldnt believe and one of the would be fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia can be quite serious, and they would be like ive got another claim here for fibro my arse. And just be quite dismissive to it being an actual illness. People werent empathetic to peoples illnesses and i think it was quite a deep rooted culture of being dismissive. Charlotte has Serious Health problems, including depression. She was eventually sacked by the dwp because they said she had taken too much sick leave. Did you feel a kind of correlation between the way you would treated by management and the way the claimants we re management and the way the claimants were treated . Yes, me being disabled, ive felt that if i had time off people thought it was laying or faking it time off people thought it was laying orfaking it or a wasnt really ill, and that was kind of a culture. They always say, when your Mental Health deteriorates, you experience or the physical conditions with, so may have immediately felt worse, my Mental Health was worth, it caused problems at home. It was very, very difficult. It destroyed me. Are you aware of any other incidents where other members of disabled staff might have felt discriminated against or change the behaviour . Yeah, definitely. Ithink against or change the behaviour . Yeah, definitely. I think people are too scared to have time off when they genuinely needed the time off, whether it was to do with physical or Mental Health. But could the dwps or Mental Health. But could the dwps role in reducing benefit fraud be affect the culture the organisation . It is difficult to ignore the fact that the dwp have focused on clamping down on, in particular, disabled people who are said to be claiming benefits that they are not entitled to. If you work in an environment like that, and you then have disabled people coming to you for adjustments, or saying that they need time off, then it is very difficult. I think the dwp and really the government have created, we have a hostile environment in the context of immigration and there is a hostile environment in the context of its ability. And charlottes employment tribunal, thejudge ability. And charlottes employment tribunal, the judge found that she had been unfairly dismissed and is committed against. She was awarded one of the largest ever payments for disability termination from the dwp. Charlotte is using this money to pay her way through university, in the hope that a degree will help her get back into full time employment. Hope that a degree will help her get back into fulltime employment. The judge was very critical of the dwp and the way they didnt follow their own procedures. I think a part of me thought that media was sacked because i should have been sacked, and that may be a wasnt well enough to work, but hearing that definitely gave me peace of mind that i was treated badly and it wasnt my fault. Panorama has discovered that since 2016, the department for work and pensions has paid out almost £1 million of public money to disabled employees. The majority of this cash, more than £700,000, has been paid and out of court settlements. So, the dwp is able to avoid both the publicity and cost of a tribunal hearing. Back in newcastle, fiona has been spending every moment of her spare time preparing for her discrimination case against the dwp. But, it seems the dwp has had a last minute change of heart. Just days before fiona was due to appear in court, the department for work and pensions lawyers offered to settle her case. Morning. So you are prepared to go through your employment tribunal, basically representing yourself, and then you got a phone call. I got a phone call on the thursday with the first offer, which was £5,000. I said no, then they came back with another figure, i said then they came back with another figure, isaid no. They came then they came back with another figure, i said no. They came back with another figure, again figure, i said no. They came back with anotherfigure, again i said no, and it went up to not a ridiculous amount, just about one yea rs ridiculous amount, just about one years wages, enough for me to be able to keep my home, keep my cart. Settling a matter out of court is pretty common in the litigation field. It is more significant, i think, in the case of dwp because public organisations to behave quite differently, the fact that they are spending taxpayers because money, settling claims out of court, would suggest that they have significant risk in that litigation. You generally dont in the public sector, settle a case unless you think you are going to lose it. The law requires employers to make adjustments and requires that for a reason because disabled people can do the jobjust as reason because disabled people can do the job just as well as anyone else, disabled people bring a whole variety of things to the workplace including diversity, and you need a diverse work first. There is no reason not to make those adjustments. I would have thought if the dwp is constantly paying a tribunal claims around stability that somebody ought to be asking the question, is something fundamentally wrong going on here . We asked the dwp for an interview, but they declined. In a statement, they said we are therefore shocked that when presented in this way, the data shows us in the slight. We have worked hard to ensure that staff a lwa ys worked hard to ensure that staff always have a root formally and informally to raise any concerns with someone they trust, and while cases brought against us come from and 2 of our staff with disabilities, this figure is still too high. We have made significant progress over the last few years to support employees with disabilities. We have improved how we manage absence, and resolve complaints, and have introduced 1600 Mental Health first aid is. But, we know that there is always more that we can do. We have instigated a review of our processes and actions, following tribunal cases, to ensure all our employees are treated fairly and with respect. Fiona is looking forward to getting back into work and regaining her self esteem, but it may not be easy to forget having to haunt her most precious possessions just to survive. You dont realise how hard it is to get toa dont realise how hard it is to get to a point where you have got to use a pawn broker. This is my grandmas watch. I feel like im a pawn broker. This is my grandmas watch. Ifeel like im to burst into tea rs. Watch. Ifeel like im to burst into tears. Ive ended up with a settlement, but had a year of absolute hell. They cant get away with treating disabled people like that. A very warm welcome to bbc news. My names mike embley. If youre watching in the uk, on pbs in america or around the globe. Our top stories italy in lockdown. Public gatherings forbidden, tourist sites virtually deserted and doctors give stark advice to the public. Stay at home and be prepared for a kind of war, because we are facing a war now, here. 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