I'm Charlotte McDonald and I'm Simon maybe and this is the thought shown on the b.b.c. World Service today what can counting words tell us about a novelist style or you just go through and after trigger words. These childhood memory is deep seeded Association it's just a word G.'s we'll hear part 2 of a special report into clashes on the streets of America between extreme left and extreme right I was here in April and I didn't have a helmet and I got a piece of cement thrown of my head and I got your of throne of you so this helmet is purely for my protection of my hair and why do people suffer from impostor syndrome if you're in a situation where you look around and there are not many people that look like you it's easy to kind of wonder why that might be the case that's all in the thought show after the news. Hello I'm Gerri Smith with the b.b.c. News the de facto leader. Is visiting the troubled state a recurring for the 1st time since 600000 range of Muslims fled a violent campaign against them she flew by military helicopter to the border region Steve Jackson reports on science a Cheese style and so on the fate of more than 600000 rangers driven out of Miramar has all but destroyed her international reputation the Nobel Peace Prize winner has been stripped of all Ners and lambasted by former friends and allies few details have been given a visit to northern Rakhine but officials say it's a day trip and includes the town of mom door in an area badly hit by the violence it isn't known whether she'll even meet anyone hinges a large proportion of the population has fled to Bangladesh accusing me in Mazar me of killings torture rape and burning villages. Members of the devolved Catalona government sanctioned by the central government last week have arrived in Spain's high court in the Dritte to head charges of rebellion and sedition over their campaign for independence from Spain has Tonbridge they stand accused of misusing public money while organizing public disorder and even rebellion against the Spanish state last night their former leader college which demand who has also been summoned but remains in Brussels claimed he was not evading justice because this was the preliminary phase of a political trial the Spanish government insists it has no influence over the judiciary in Spain but if those cattle and politicians appearing in court denied bail it will cause further anger amongst those who want Catalonia to break away President Trump has called for the death penalty for those black immigrant who's accused of murdering down pedestrians and cyclists in New York killing 8 people describing as you profess a terrorist Mr Trump said in a tweet that the man was happy as he asked to hang the Islamic state flag in his hospital room the suspect who was shot by police after the attack was produced in court on Wednesday and charged with terrorism offenses. The aid organization Save the Children says nearly a 1000000 children again are dying from pneumonia even though they can be treated with antibiotics costing less than half a dollar the group describes pneumonia as the forgotten child killer Africa James Copnall reports Save the Children says that pneumonia is responsible for the deaths of more children under 5 than any other disease the vast majority are under too many with their immune system so weakened by man u. Tradition that they cannot fight back Save the Children is calling for a summit of world leaders to address the pneumonia problem it also wants cheaper vaccines greater access to drugs and life saving oxygen and for more than 100 $60000000.00 children around the world to be immunized against the disease world news from the b.b.c. The Israeli and British prime ministers will meet in London today on the centenary of the Balfour declaration when Britain said it supported a national home for the Jewish people in what was then Palestine the declaration by of the bow for he was Britain's foreign secretary at the time was this huge during the 1st World War Mr Netanyahu has hailed it as a moral stone in this stablish means of Israel that Palestinian leaders are calling for an apology from Britain over the historic pledge which they see as a cause of their dispossession. A controversial ban on open cattle grazing comes into force today in Benway state in southeast Nigeria anyone who breaks the new law could be jailed for up to 5 years it follows violent clashes between cattle herders and local farmers last year over rights to grassland which killed hundreds of people all from across it Walker Nigeria has large grassland areas dedicated to grazing Milind in north of the country but years of insurgency by Boko Haram militants and their coach in desert means there is less grass of illiberal the prompter pastoralist cattle Heathers to take the animals upwards to seek greener pastures at least $26.00 people are now known to have been killed and up to $100.00 injured in an explosion at a state run power plant in northern India on Wednesday the State Government's how do we compensate the families of those killed the publishers of the Collins dictionary say the phrase of the year is President trams catchphrase fake news they say its use has risen more than 3 fold since last year Mr Trump has often used the phrase to dismiss criticism of his administration and allegations of Russian meddling in the u.s. Presidential election other phrases which made the Collins list include gender fluid which means having unfix views on gender and 38 Spinner a popular children's toy and those later stories from b.b.c. News. Hello this is a thought show on the b.b.c. World Service with me Charlotte MacDonald And with me Simon may been coming up later in the program do you other to feel like a fraud and why the people will find out if you did you might be suffering from impostor syndrome that's been perfectly competent people feel they've come by way into something like a good job or place university but 1st what can I tell us about words here's Tim Harford. If you spent the summer lying on a beach with a good book or huddled out of the rain with a good book you may have noticed patterns emerging in the words the author was using did you notice for example that they rely too much on exclamation marks or adverbs Perhaps perhaps not but either way numbers here to help you wouldn't generally expect a data journalist to tell you much about great works of literature but as you might expect more or less we found one who can Ben Blatt is the author of Nabokov's favorite word is motive and he's been scouring your favorite novels to see if data can tell us anything about what makes a great writer he's where the idea came from you know I'm a huge fan of reading and writing and I was reading Stephen King's book on writing and he had advised that you should not use a y. Adverbs for example he recommends instead of saying you know it quickly ran say he spirited it's more concise and it gets What across in a more clear fashion and there's still a good advice given in a lot of writing courses but I wonder now you know if Stephen King follows his own advice you should get a count of 5000000 words he's ever written and see as you actually use our adverbs at a smaller rate than other authors what about you know I think wavers young James or j.k. Route I versus John Steinbeck So I kind of went through thousands of books by hundreds of popular. Doctors to see for example I want read to the easy way adverbs at work really do they use long sentences or short sentences word of their favorite words things along that nature so already in suspense Stephen King is he a hypocrite or does he follow his own advice about using adverbs I would say Stephen King is a bit in the middle definitely I would feel a bit harsher against labeling him a hypocrite this is actually one of the experiments I did that kind of confirms what a lot of people say about some classic authors Ernest Hemingway turned out to be of kind of all of the great authors of The New York Times but Sun authors Ernest Hemingway was the one who used the few as a way adverbs just behind Tony Morrison and Ernest Hemingway is kind of known for being stream way concise in his language and even Toni Morrison has said in interviews specifically that she does not like using away adverbs so kind of made sense that these 2 Arthurs with up to their reputations Stephen King and he maybe lived up to his reputation but didn't live up to his own advice not quite exactly people are very interested in getting writing tips for more thoughts are there any writing tips that authors have given out that you're able to say you you are completely busted you never follow your own advice so there are definitely some examples where Leonard one of his rules on writing was not to use more than 2 or 3 exclamation points for 100000 Words which is just to give a sense 800000 words is a decent length novel or 2 short novels that's correct so he says essentially don't use more than 2 or 3 you're going to use more than a few you know in your book and he wrote this in 2001 he had never actually written a book where he followed his own advice no no he told he wrote 45 novels totaling 3400000 words so he would only be allowed 102 exclamation marks in fact. He used 1651 he was off by more than a fact to a 15 outrageous on the other hand he did write rum punch the book that inspired the movie Jackie Brown. Aside from people breaking their own rules then black discovered something else about writers but unleashing the frequency with which they use certain words I had read an interview by Ray Bradbury and he said my favorite word is said and then is explanation for why he like the word Cinnamon was because when he was growing up he liked going into his grandmother's pantry and sniffing around all the things whether be the lemon or the licorice or the spice and cinnamon and the cinnamon is what stuck with him so I was just curious if this is a favorite word is just something he likes you're eager to see actually incorporate it into his writing and essentially have you know these 100 very popular authors Ray Bradbury use cinema in a good time times more often than you'd expected typical English and on top a sentiment was also using words like spearmint spiced the know of peppermint nutmeg licorice on the in the lung and at a really high rate usually within the top once you are 3 of the top $100.00 authors I was Ok so there was kind of the sense that read Bradbury perceive the world through the spices and smells and tastes in a way that has no correlation to his writing because he never wrote a novel about a chef or anything like that I think he has a Ray Bradbury rip trying to remember now there is a Ray Bradbury short story about a grandmother who makes his amazing cooking and when they tidy up her kitchen which is a total mess she completely loses her cooking talent and it's a short story about the perils of tidying up I think I remember that one but it is such a it's just a short story it's not a novel so yeah this short stories would not have been included and one thing I'll point out is the caviar is just sort of. Any word that was very plot dependent the rule for sin in a word was that it had to be used in more than half the author's novels Cerebro wrote a lot of novels that means he used it in at least 6 years 11 novels so these are words that keep coming up and up and up and I was curious could you just go through and after his favorite words and kind of detect these patterns in childhood memories he's each seated associations just in the words so so the sentiment words they're words that are being used on usually often but they're also not words like you know I guess the word replicants must be used a lot to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep by Philip k. Dick but that's a technical term in that particular novel and so wouldn't carry across his whole over a so that sort of would wouldn't wouldn't be counted correct so you know obviously words like vi enter or are not actually used by authors and extreme ratio because everyone uses them at a high rate but cinnamon for example some others may go their entire career without using a word to remember Ray Bradbury's here using it in almost every book a few times so come on test me I want to try and guess a few authors give me some cinnamon words I'll see if I can get the authors Ok I'll start out here with since Billy fancying and imprudence civility fancying and imprudence it so it's like a 19th century. I'm going to guess Jane Austin that is correct Oh yes I haven't I haven't been briefed I have to say I have not been tipped off about this on feeling good Ok one out of one so far we should stop here I should quit when I want to head but wirehead Yeah one there and you know they're definitely emblematic AFIC style All right how about murders. As in h m m m it's a conscious Ok harsh. Oh no. And he could be any others whether or not they're you know Titan scores or just on the New York Times bestseller list or anything like that I I have no ideas home a wild guess I will go for Elizabeth Gilbert in you know James the Arthur of 50 Shades as well I apologize to Elizabeth Gilbert Ok inquest alibi Frank for inquest alibi and frightful. I will guess but again I have no real idea I would guess Kafka. In. Yes over use an alibi phrase yes I should I should have guessed that one out of 3. Yeah it's not great I don't think you need to be an expert in statistics to realize that one out of 3 not Britain now let's head to special report from America about the deep political divide these 2 sides are tending oddly. Was a year ago few would have predicted violent scenes on the streets of America between supporters of the white nationalist right and fascists the anti for has been property damage multiple arrests hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on police presence and in Charlottesville a woman was killed by a car which rammed into a peaceful demonstration. It's been happening all over the country and that's why we went to the west coast of America to California and Oregon to try and find out who's responsible for this level of violence and how has it come to this. I'm Mike Wendling and I'm a nice to see that in this 2nd special edition of trending we meet people from the far right so war between good and evil and the way that war is manifesting itself right now is the left is completely evil the left's. Shown itself to be of Satan and we find out more about the secret underground groups who have taken their battle to the streets of America these people ideally want to see nobody except for white people in America they ideally want straight white men to be running the country and anybody else that doesn't fit into that is a threat. Right out right by my bed out by here on the campus of the University of California at Berkeley conservative writer an online provocateur Mylo you novelist organized a free speech week he claimed to have invited high profile right wing speakers like another conservative writer and Coulter and former White House chief strategist Steve Bennett and Coulter actually later tweeted that that rumor wasn't true she had never had a contract to speak and all across America Farai speak has a touring in a festive camp says to spread their extremist messages like self-proclaimed white supremacist which is Spencer but every time they schedule an event supporters of the hard left arrive to protest which results in often violent confrontations many extremists were excited at the election of Donald Trump a month after he took office Milo you know police arrived at Berkeley Michael Mark Cohen is a professor at the university he witnessed the clashes that resulted he began a cycle of far right wing activists gathering in Berkeley and meeting in downtown Berkeley and meeting to all kinds of fights all kinds of violence in the community but you know I'm not a seller on a campus but in the city of Berkeley people coming from outside Berkeley absolutely coming here and we invite armor shields helmets sticks yeah looking to fight is quite unusual it's very intimidating nice to see these people it's unusual for protests anywhere much less a college campus or are college caliber right yes but they're coming here right for reason why to attack our legacy right and what this campus stands for. There was. A great reverence for the country speech week out but eventually got canceled but it didn't just. Huge crowds who still showed up every day with that they were rallies protests shouting and a lot of arguing with supporters of both sides being deliberately untag mistake we witnessed people getting chased turned to the grand somewhat even a rest in cable tied by the police others came to us for vacation oh yeah this guy in particular caught my eye towards silver helmet on I do yes I don't I'm not huge like overnight there were I go I will let everyone see my I was just wondering what I would know you're certain that I was here in April and I didn't have a helmet and I got a piece of cement thrown of my head and I got your and thrown at you so this helmet is purely for my protection of my head and I also like its design. Because it's part of the serious you know it's a normal helmet Yeah it's a Viking hold it it's a real still helmet but I used to protect my head was the only reason I went there were people from both sides egging each other on as tensions run high on campus we met with eventful Arca from an organization called by any means necessary all Bam Schultz you know myself and an almost a dozen of us in Sacramento were stabbed by neo nazis on the steps of the state capital here in California we did not sink and know that that was going to happen and some of the people who were there who who were fallen by the Nazis were stabbed multiple times I mean almost die young have it worse than I was I was I was stabbed in the arm I was stabbed in the arm and bashed in the head eventful Arca says that she and some of her fellow supporters were stabbed but we also know that following that incident she was arrested events in February of this year cost $100000.00 in property damage and when Miley you know police came again last month it cost the University of Berkeley $800000.00 to police the campus we saw large police vans parked all across the perimeter of the campus on the grounds there were barriers and hundreds of a. Officers place to teach equally around the university and on the streets of the city and all we could hear with chants and shouting but we learned that's an important tactic used by the hard left to drown out anything that's said by the far right they see it as a nonviolent way to stop spreading all right messages and we saw that recently Mike when Richard Spencer went to the University of Florida and was received with a barrel of chants. Was. A. Police tactics when it comes to handling these large feuding crowds they change with every confrontation often n.t. People come dressed head to toe in black wearing helmets or scarves to cover their faces that makes it hard to identify them it's known as the Black Bloc but things like that weren't allowed in Berkeley and we saw that there were signs that appeared on campus with a long list of prohibited items no helmets no shields no wearing of masks at any time and after a car had plowed through protesters in Charlottesville where one woman was run down and killed the police also the crowds to stay off the road and use the pavement to March through the streets of Berkeley they closed off parts of the city. Along the way supporters of this particular bar right March stopped at a bookstore Reiko Redmond is the owner they were banging on the windows they were yelling commie scum and we tried to make them leave some of us did in front of the store the rest of the people had to lock the door of the store Revolution Books has a far left bookstore Towsley a home in far left Berkeley but when the All Right was in town suddenly under siege it was open we actually did lock the doors when they tried to push their way and they then they started yelling you ass and. Asked. We followed a far right group who had made the 1000 kilometer track from Oregon to Berkeley to show their support for what they called free speech as we followed them off campus and through the city streets we saw a scuffle and we heard some shouting. There was some confusion in the crowd we weren't sure what was happening and then we heard cheering. We later learned it was because you know that for a lark the activist had been arrested. And. They asked people to not respond to him for morning Ok like those 2 he gives in with the leader of the right wing group from Portland in Oregon it's called Patriot prayer although he says he renounced his white supremacy his appearances have attracted members of the far right the one thing they all have in common is they hate and. Last time we came down here is frustrating all politicians calls white supremacist to start mass hysteria Ok and it cost him a lot of money so we'll keep coming down here until they begin to not only protect us but they need to boldly say we respect free speech from we we need to let these people come in keep them safe and then let them leave without any violence I think Bama teams will have made terrorist actions when you use violence when you when you use violence to for their own political agenda that's terrorism right and they've done that and they threaten people they talk to people Ok those are terrorist actions now you can't label antifreeze a terrorist organization because it's an ideology. We followed the groups of right wing is to a place called peoples called not far from campus where Joey and a few others gave speeches to a small but passionate crowd you mention like that every time Joey makes an appearance to speak somewhere he attracts a certain type of person and one of those people we met him back he was culture that men might but that's not how the Internet knows him know he's better known as based stick man I should explain he found fame on the internet after video footage emerged of him brandishing a stick and the fascists and whacking a couple of them in a crowd in San Francisco quite near to Berkeley just across the bay that's how he got that nickname and he's also facing because of that incident a trial on weapons charges he could be put into prison for up to 8 years if he's convicted. I caught up with him after he gave a short speech in the park column like when lean in with that a.b.c. Would you mind if I asked a couple of questions is making I really like working with you guys. With. The b.b.c. Guys a fake news Ok thanks Can I ask you some questions anyway. I don't think the questions well we'll say we'll see how you're your face and questions go what's up your life stick out there like her people shouting about how it's white genocide calling you a white nationalist How do you respond to that actively not a white nationalist I'm an American nationals I think people of all races cultures of all sexual identities should come together fight for American ism come together under Americana $776.00 civic nationalism strong borders you know. In sovereignty. What I do talk about often times Mr c. As white nationalism or racist ideology I do talk about the war and whites and I think very clearly is a war against white people there's a I suppose a phrase like genocide Oh that's one way of saying. I don't typically use white genocide I use the word whites. We want to find out more about the group a trip rather attracts a col Chapman and people like him to play so we went to Portland Oregon a city described by the mad as one of the most progressive in America we went to speak with Gibson again but on the day he sensed text to say he was unable to make it d.c. Quote personal issues tensions between far right groups and their opponents are really high earlier in the year white supremacists Jamey Christian with charged with murder and attempted murder he stabbed 3 men on a commuter train in Portland 2 of them died earlier in the year he'd been spotted at a patriot prayer rally and was reported to be giving Nazi salutes and shouting racial slurs now it must. He said that Joey Gibson was adamant that Jimmy Christian was not welcome at his rallies and some say rallies like those organized by Patriot prayer invites a wider problem to cities like Portland these rallies attracted a number of right wing extremist groups identity Europa which is openly white nationalist some militia movements this is journalist Corey Payne He spent a decade in Portland he's extensively covered the white nationalist movement there these rallies have had something of a provocative nature I mean in some ways that's been in Panthers to provoke confrontations with progressive and liberal activists who see his group as harboring hate speech. Is there any telling sort of how much support these kinds of groups have in the area you know are they. Limited to the fringe or you know have more support than maybe people realize it's difficult to tell certainly than city of Portland they are not welcome. Paying then told us a bit more about Kyle Chapman who we met in Berkeley and his relationship with Patriot prayer and he called into question Joey Gibson's intentions one person they've appeared with who may have come up in your research your travels as Kyle Chapman who's known as based stick man he's been affiliated with joy Gibson sense he came on the scene in April at the Berkeley riots the connections are not clear although joy Gibson has called Chapman a true stand up friend someone he will be loyal to to the end so when he says his group is not white nationalist or political that it's just about free speech you wonder because Chapman I mean when he came to Portland he said it's time to do the same to rub out and all of these provocative almost incitement to violence Corey Payne and will bring you the rest of the special report after the short break that's coming up now do stay with us we'll be back in a minute. B.b.c. World Service the news is next but 1st music. 100 women. Part of the B.B.C.'s 100 women season global beats brings together some of the best female artists who look Piers on the program and for the last 3 years. Telling their stories through song and highlighting the issues that affect women in their countries the soul is about under is mold which is something that happens a lot in human called play and she got married where she was 11 also beautiful girl she's a beautiful girl she's awake. Only to raise join me for a female spectacular global beats wonderful women at b.b.c. World Service dot com slash 100 women. Hello welcome back to the thought show on the b.b.c. World Service with me Charlotte McDonald and with me Simon maven coming up who exactly are the members of an Tika busting anti fascists in America who are fighting with white supremacists and what's the cause of Impostor Syndrome We'll hear why minority groups are especially vulnerable but all coming up in a moment but 1st the nice. B.b.c. News with Jerry Smit the defacto leader. Is visiting the trouble state of recurrence for the 1st time since hundreds of thousands of revenge of Muslims for a violent campaign against them Mr Cheney has been heavily criticized for condoning an army campaign against the Rangers which is being described by the u.n. As ethnic cleansing. President Trump has called for the death penalty for a back immigrant who is accused of mowing down pedestrians and cyclists in New York killing 8 people Saifullah a perv who was shot by police after the attack was produced in court on Wednesday he's been charged with terrorism offenses members of the devolved cattle on government sanctioned by the central government last week have arrived at Spain's High Court in Madrid to head charges of rebellion and sedition over their campaign for independence from Spain the former Catalan leader colors pushed him on who's in Brussels says he won't return without guarantees of a fair trial the aid organization Save the Children says nearly a 1000000 children a year are dying from pneumonia even can be treated with antibiotics costing less than half a dollar it kills more under fives than any other disease the charity is calling for cheaper vaccines a mass immunization program and better access to drugs the Israeli and British prime ministers meet in London later today on this interior of the Balfour declaration when Britain said it supported a national home for the Jewish people in what was then Palestine Palestinian leaders are calling for an apology from Britain over the pledge and the publishers of the Collins dictionary say the phrase of the year is President drums catchphrase fake news other phrases that have made the Collins list include gender fluid which means having unfix views on gender and fidgets Spinner a popular children's toy b.b.c. News. You're listening to the thoughts on the b.b.c. World Service I'm Charlotte McDonald and I'm Simon maven coming up later in the program a syndrome once thought to afflict only women is commonly found among men so why the successful people of any gender suffer from impostor syndrome and fear they'll be exposed for incompetence but 1st let's hear more from the West Coast of America where I need to see the dark Mike when playing went on the trial of the m.t.v. Fascist you can be sure if there are far right groups marching in the street the hard left will be there to earlier this year Portland saw a series of violent encounters between the 2 sides but what about the people in the n.t. For groups we have a question who are there. It wasn't as easy to speak to members of Mt for as it was to some members of the Far Right right yeah one group we met in a park just before sunset on a weekday afternoon were dressed in black with a bit frightened of the 2 of them came out to greet us before discarding us under a bridge and around to another area of the park where 2 others were sitting on a bench they asked us not to record them at all and they said that they use a variety of social media tools in order to spread messages and coordinate meetings with allied groups might they spoke about the far rights use of Doc saying that's the posting of personal information online and they told us they think social media platforms need to do more tell those who've been darkest they believe that it falls on everyone shoulders to quote confront fascism Yeah you're right in the 2nd because of that dark scene in some of the threats they received they were a bit tricky to get hold of they feel reprisals not only from the authorities but also from the other side the all right but you notice something right when we were in Portland. We were watching the parents in jail to get sentenced morning this is not going to be it was common Stacey had said that he was ready to engage with Joey in a debate. Is that that Jodi had to be. The mom I was in contact with was nervous he was checking to see if I was who I said I was and it took most of the day in a series of direct messages on Twitter to finally arrange time to speak and we measure around 10 o'clock in the evening they sent the address of a meeting place about an hour before we would choose to meet and we were told there would be about 7 or 8 people the. Night here in Portland and ran away to meet them now you know that not all of them want to be identified or some of them don't want or even a voice is recorded and you know that one of the people that we're going to meet actually been arrested recently on a weapons charge a result of the clashes between the far right and the far left here. We were greeted by people who claim to be bunch of different hard left groups some of them didn't want to be identified so they wore masks and bandanas to cover their faces in that sort of black bloc style we were talking about earlier that's really become synonymous with across the us I started by asking them about their movement and Greg Mackell he is one of the founders of a group called Portland's resistance we're trying to build a city and a movement that really insulates us from the policies of Donald not with like borders and walls but with the policies of our own and you know it takes a lot to do that it's not just resisting the federal administration but also resisting moves that can lead towards fascism that happened locally whether that happened from our local officials or from local All right movements and I think that all of us believe that we are kind of living in historic times and we want to make sure that we're the good guys in the history books that are standing on the sides of marginalized and oppressed people I'm sure you know that a lot of people across the political spectrum even people on the left you agree with large number of your principles say violence and property destruction should be totally off the table then why do we so why do we celebrate World War 2 Why do we celebrate Nurnberg trials Why do we celebrate all the times in which the system is combated fascism but when people have to do it for themselves on the street it's no longer celebrated we should be allowed to have these political discussions we can differ on policy that's where being human is all about being able to differ on politics and policy what we can differ on is humanity in the fact that I have a right to exist and I have a right to be who I am as long as I'm not advocating for the destruction of you or your people the man I've been talking to all day on social media was Luis Enrique Marquez and you and yet he was arrested and placed released his home address. But also to that he had to move house because of threats online and all from what nationalists against him and his 6 year old daughter they put my daughter's information out there how old she was herself a scary number that every mother's and her mother's address I believe her old address and you left home for a month because of the here yeah they knew where ever they did they know where they drive by my house a couple times a week. Your smoking or. Your misses they're back up again right yeah. No. I mean they're not afraid to put their clan memorabilia there. Their pictures are stickers. These guys aren't afraid anymore and you know what I'm not crazy. Along the course of this trip we heard from a number of members of the far right who say they reject labels like that shift and racist but Luis and his friends think otherwise I don't care what you call yourself it's your actions that lead to what you are so I can tell everybody right now that I'm just like a white dude but you can see that I'm not. You don't have to just listen to what I tell you because you have eyes for yourself I mean where also just talking about a name fascist so they might say no we're not fascist and then list whatever fascist ideology they still believe that and they're just like we don't call it fascism so that you can rebranding rename it however you want Donald Trump doesn't call himself a race is all of America knows that he's a racist I put a similar question to the journalist we heard from earlier Corey Payne who's been studying the far right. The Patriot fair and a lot of his friends and allies a lot of these groups they sort of deny that they're far right they deny that they're neo nazis or racist What's your take on that. If that's the case then why are they inviting speakers to tweet lies about the campaign of white genocide suppose it white genocide why do they invite speakers to minimize and deny the Holocaust if it's not about racism. Why is this the only kind of free speech the carriage of the found. That's that's my response for that very simply well it's clear from what we saw in Becky and in Poland is that America has a problem with 2 very opposed groups and often when they come together it was felt some violence as much as far right extremists were elated with Donald Trump being elected president someone tif equips believe he isn't the problem we would still need a Polish resistance we would still need in the fall of minutes if Hillary Clinton was elected if Barack Obama was still president so these things would still have to exist no matter who is president no matter who's going to be president after or how long do. Champus president in the thing is especially now he's emboldened it's not chump isn't the scariest part of what's going on in America right now it's the people who are die hard supporters of Donald Trump who put him in office who are the scary ones in long after damage those people are still going to be here with these battles on American streets and university campuses happening with increasing regularity what's apparent is that neither the far right nor the groups can really survive without each other it's a symbiotic relationship of hate speakers like Milo you know and which Spencer have warned that they intend to keep appearing on American college campuses but can't unsee For achieve their goal and keep their far right opponents off the streets like they've planned a national day of action on November 4th and they're already room is claims and counterclaims that we've seen flying about on line about what will happen they say it's going to be peaceful but as we've seen and experienced 1st hand the threat of further trouble on the streets of America is very very real. And with our reporting with my questioning amount do you think you were a mask and worried it might slip so you're not alone. When I had a really well prepared talk for you I will. All of a sudden I didn't feel like a new majority. I felt like oh my god people why are white people coming to listen to me you know of doing a speaking engagement. Have you ever had the feeling you're about to be unmasked you feel out of your depth left talented or less qualified than the people around you I was utterly convinced that I was fooling them that they just didn't know how incompetent I was didn't know how anxious I was they didn't know how bad it was that I was just fooling them all and you're terrified that at any moment someone will discover your shameful secrets I could tell everybody in the room or at least in my head of halakhah but in the room as I came in like Who is this kids there's no way we're giving this money someone will tell the world that you're a fraud and that you don't belong there. I remember the 1st time I had that feeling it was a picturesque frosty October and I just arrived at Oxford University away from home for the 1st time everyone seemed to know each other and the special lingo matriculation collections words I had never heard before they were so much smarter in self-confident than I was as a black woman I looked different to almost everyone around me too I was convinced that I didn't belong there and someone had made a terrible mistake by letting me in and terrified that mistake would be discovered I kept my fears quiet hoping I would never be found out. I'm after her and this week I'm finding out about something. Cooled imposter syndrome What is that who experiences it and why I would say I had him parson drum probably about a year or 2 into my career started started to manifest self-doubt in myself so it was very difficult time because I honestly didn't believe that I would be able to reach a certain point my career where I had you know real achievements in being able to get the work done and I had a lot of self-doubt on each piece of work that I did Alexis Hank is the senior web developer in Silicon Valley She's been working in the tech industry for 5 years and has taken on many roles including software engineer and technology consultant came into the field with such confidence in terms of being able to try new things and learn new things. Try hard to find a good woman ski instructor there aren't many like especially kind of the different levels. In the tech industry she has worked as a software engineer in Canada Australia and the u.k. And she finds the time to teach skiing in between leading software. Is different to that of the office Kate says there isn't a big difference in the way she feels in the 2 environments there was a point where I was on a team where there were more men named Ken than women. And we talk about like the Dave to women ratio but when you start getting into like last common names Yeah you know things that. I think if you're in a situation where you look around and there are not many people that look like you it's easy to kind of wonder why that might be the case and if things are go well if you like to feel less confident for whatever reason then I think kind of that feeling of not belonging and being other can definitely kind of feed into that the Lexus and Kate are 2 people who claim that they suffer from impostor syndrome very similar to the feelings I had back at university. Talk to Valerie is an expert on the subject and an author of impulse to self help books it was to psychologist in the late 1970 s. Dr Pauling Clance and Dr Suzanne who 1st coined the term the imposter phenomenon as it is more accurately known in the world of psychology and they found in their research at a university in Georgia despite overwhelming compelling evidence to the contrary a lot of perfectly intelligent capable competent people have a really hard time internalizing or really own ing their achievements and instead they discount them or diminish them and kind of truck them up to things like Luck timing connections they just like me computer error I've heard some very creative excuses for success over the years but the persistent fear then is going to be that sooner or later you're going to be found out. From behind 1st identified in post and very mature in the 1970 s. During the 2nd wave of feminism the women's rights movement had made significant progress in areas of education politics and the workplace is actually one of the very few psychological issues that was 1st thought to be specific to one gender in this case women and they were seeing all these very high achieving women experiencing these you know and talking about these feelings of fraudulence and feeling undeserving of their success not long after clients and described in posts enjoying research has found that it was not exclusive to women men also experience the fear of being fooled so there are many many men who feel like impostors 24 year old Alex price is the founding managing director of the digital agency $93.00 digital He started the agency in his bedroom at the age of 6. Now he manages 15 people in an office based in central London even with all his success he sometimes questions whether he is right for the job the most common scenario is when I'm walking into a meeting or a new business Vironment and you can quite clearly see on people's faces when they come out to me in reception in their honeymoon exchange for someone that's a founder and managing director in their program expecting someone in their fifty's with grey hair and they're greeted by quite a young looking face so what story stands out as one is a piece of new business which ultimately ended up winning it was for a large piece of work it was a 6 figure piece of work we went to meet a client on loads of occasions it was actually just me that went to all of those meetings I had a room full of sometimes 1012 people sitting around tables just watching and kind of waiting for you every word I could tell everybody in the room or at least in my head I felt like everybody in the room was like a me like Who is this scared there's no way we're giving this money and yet all to rationing up losing at the 1st time and we're seeing a lot more. Degree millennial young men write about impostor feelings and partly I think you know millennia also are more open to letting their feelings out there. Is a job that you usually find women in Kenya doing that in a small male 16 kilometers from Nairobi 23 year old Cyril is tending to a customer's name. Despite his passion for working in the nail industry still questioned his legitimacy and his skills as a man in an all female world when they 1st started doing myself it wasn't easy because myself I was scared too because I never knew how people react towards the occupation my parents 1st and foremost they never accepted what they do so. It wasn't easy for me to tell them they wanted to me to change another condition and they were willing to pay a school in for me to do another course I thought maybe a move to the right career and stuff. But just because it was my passion I just. Went went 48 percent being a nail technician even most most of men now I've started joining the conditions of my stomach boy I get my confidence again this skills and I was able to tell people what to do. Who is actually the hardest article I've ever written what if you do not identify with agenda Shaunie set is a social worker and librarian in the United States she identifies as genderqueer which means she doesn't subscribe to either male or female she Vonnie channels her unique identity into writing one of her most popular articles is titled Am I an imposter or am I oppressed and here's the irony imposter syndrome struck as she was writing there. Was sitting there being like why I'm like because what I'm trying to avoid doing is talking about how much this affects my life what I'm trying to avoid doing is sharing that but this is something I'm literally battling as I write the article I need to talk about the fact that even putting my voice out into the world is a is a effort that I have to battle this idea that my voices even needed worthwhile interesting that. I was utterly convinced that I was fooling them that they just didn't know how incompetent I was it and know how anxious I was they didn't know how bad it was that I was just fooling them all and that feeling persisted. For years. She says her feelings of being an impostor started as a child there were only 5 Indian families including hers in the entire city of Bismarck North Dakota where she grew up she and her brother with only children of Indian descent. A group of students had found out I was Hindu and I wasn't Christian in the became panicked at this idea that I would somehow go to hell and so they clustered around me and feverish me started trying to teach me the 10 commandments and that's that's my 1st really vivid memory of realizing that I wasn't like everyone else and that other people really had a lot of intense feelings about it and how did that affect. It's been us sore spot for a long time that was in the 1st time my religion came up 2nd graders knew enough to be frightened of my difference and their parents and taught them enough to say that there was something they had to do to correct that difference otherwise something horrible would happen to me and it's just this very clear memory I always tell people about because we were 8 stabbing and. Everybody knew like that somehow there was something sort of different about me and that that difference was somehow threatening and that's sort of where imposter syndrome in other ng really came together is it started with this idea that people were telling me there was something wrong with the fact that I was different and it morphed into there must be something wrong with me Dr Diane Rainey is a psychologist and the founder of strength within me a foundation that tackles domestic abuse she also runs a p.r. Company that specializes in diversity marketing and race relations in the u.k. I know I've always been told as a black woman that I always have to work 10 times harder than my cock Asian counterparts and so already you've kind of got that self-doubt because you know you've got to work hard and statistics show bear that out women of color are not as visible in the corporate space in a number of key positions so I think if that's the way De the status quo Unfortunately you are going to feel less confident for searches have found that impostor syndrome is a separate phenomenon from anxiety or low self-esteem but some studies have been able to see a connection between the 2 it's possible to have a healthy sense of self esteem and still have impostor feelings and also I want to add an apostrophe is a very specific to achievement arenas to work school career when you walk into a classroom or meeting a given field organization or the executive level in an organization the more people who look like you or perhaps sound like you you know the more confident you're going to feel and converse really the fewer people who look like you you know it can and does impact your level of confidence and that's all the more true if you belong to a group for whom there are stereotypes about competence in post to feelings are complex and there are almost as many different causes as there are individuals who've experienced them. Hearing so many personal experiences has really made me reflect on the younger me that bright cold all to him as a fresher at university I think if I'd have even known the name for what I was experiencing let alone how common impulse the syndrome is it would have really helped me but is there a way of completely overcoming it the advice I would give other people and what I did last year was to overcome it more or less to finally trust myself in a let me let myself mess up and realize that even though something on a job may happen with me and family mistake and be interpreted. I should know the scale of that mistake should not be seen as an indictment on my skills in my skillset should be seen as a human error that can happen as we talk about imposter feelings I want to courage people to not talk about them in a confessional kind of shameful way but to talk about them in a very normalising way went Oh my God I had such an apostrophe moment in that interview with the b.b.c. . And it just kind of name it and offhand it kind of way people who don't feel like impostors are no more intelligent or capable or competent than than those who do the only difference in that same scenario a job interview a presentation a promotion that will cause someone to feel like an impostor they are thinking different thoughts which is really good news because it means all we have to do is to learn how to think like a non imposter there's a lot of digging you have to do into those old old hurt places with impostor cinema especially I think in the minority as a marginalized person there are so many things that have been said of your life that are sort of like scar tissue and then you have to work the muscles around the scar tissue. One thing that really made a big impression on Shivani was during her time at Smith graduate school she attended a networking event. In students of color until this day she remembers what her mentor at Tran Martin said. She came up to the podium and she said we always have students crew think that they're not supposed to be here who think that they've told us that they've squeaked by somehow. That we've brought them in as a diversity check mark and she said you are supposed to be here we chose you we chose you for a reason you're supposed to be here and for me that was a very important moment because she was speaking to the fact that she fully expected that someone in there was going to feel that way and she just normalized it. And that was really healing. What everyone wants is to stop feeling like an impostor but that feelings are the last to change so if you want to stop feeling like an impostor you have to stop thinking like an impostor and think very differently about failure and competence and for that matter about fear. One of the greatest authors and post of our time a vote 11 acclaimed books in her lifetime yet she once admitted I have written 11 books but each time I think. They're going to find out now I run a game on everybody and they're going to wind me out. If somebody like Mayor and suffered from impostors enjoin any one of us can because it's not about that you're not good enough it's all about what you think what's going on feel. That was the why factor presented by at what Hirsch and that's all we have time for this week you've been listening to the thoughts with me Charlotte McDonald and me Simon may have been due to join us again at the same time next week. B.b.c. World Service Now here's Harriet's Gilbert to tell you about the next World Cup We're reading the Line of Beauty by Alan Hollinghurst It's a novel about class politics and sexuality in markets such as $980.00 s. Britain and it follows a story of Nick a young man discovering a very different world from the one he was brought up in b.b.c. World's big club with Alan Hollinghurst from the 4th of November and at 1130 g.m.t. It's the food chain with Emily Thomas do you believe that eating or drinking from a particular bottle Cup play to dramatically increase the taste join us to find out if that's all in your head next it's world update here on the b.b.c. World Service the world's radio station.