Share in the United States that the world the freedom loving people everywhere made an imminent threat that was so dangerous how horrific in its scope that we might temporarily one of some of our priorities and some of our ethical and moral principle but well certainly get back to those very soon as the right over the crisis never seem to end although communism is over as of now its only terrorism theres china others are on the search for enemies of the United States west just tell me you sydney gottlieb is given the directors of the cia maybe your current secretary of state pompei let alone jean aspel theyre running the cia may not have even heard of Sidney Gottlieb before this book came out he got was running one of the most secret projects in the history of you know is identity was totally unknown outside. I had the i had a vague idea what he was doing actually this guy had a license to kill issued by the Us Government i concluded after doing all the research their way into this book that he not only was the poisoner in chief. But that he really was the most powerful under the lehrer of the of the 20. Now you make a lot of allegations against him im going to say although we cant defame the dead. He said in a court case he couldnt remember things going to remember any of the kinds of things you talk about in the book back in 83 died in 1909. Over here the statue of churchill is being attacked by black lives matter protest has just take us back to when churchill one to bio weapons so during the 2nd world war they knew what it for sure just became convinced by intelligence reports which were later proven job involves the nazi government was planning to arm some of the missiles or raiding london with biological warfare weapons there or churchill not having the silicon cell to radiate out their weapons that frankly raw. For him tens of thousands of the interact. He would hold in readiness to counterattack against germany so russias not agreed to do that and he ordered the us army to begin a secret project to create the anthrax and they were being built in a factory in indiana when the war ended so it was sure urgent request to roosevelt based on what turned out to be false information put the United States and really the western world on the path for biological weapons and im going to get to the cias recruitment of nazis nazi doctors in a 2nd but again the context here were talking about is. Korea of britain the United States maybe have killed a 5th of koreas population in the korean war you say in the book that the cia thought. Released us soldier is this supposed to communism their apparent support could only be explained by mind altering drugs so i was working through the of this project m. K. Ultra the cia mind control project at the center of my book one of the questions that kept emerging in my mind was what landrys people in the early cia to believe that mind control was real why did they spend 10 years destroying so many lies in the effort to try to find a way to destroy human minds and number and place it there. I think there are 2 reasons one of them has to do with cultural conditioning that of all the books in the movie Sherlock Holmes story the end around post story about mind control and note that i think subconsciously a lot of these people that generation the generation that ran the early cia were affected by the good and began to lose the order between fiction and reality but then there were a couple of specific episode. That felt sort of a season that already fertilised soil was the one you mention in which. American prisoners of war returning from korea after the end of the war were found in many cases to assign statements criticising aspects of life in the and i ate some has confessed to going to many more crimes in korea if you had said they had dropped by a logical pov the North Koreans of the United States is always never happened how could they have said these things the only explanation that the cia come up with was somehow their minds and then. By a hostile communist forces and therefore we see were not speaking for the valves somebody was the root and therefore since we now have. Evidence later proved to be un true that the communists have a mind control capacity or are developing it is absolutely urgent that we as a defensive project become involved in the search or mind control and it was said we got these and i said before you can find a way to insert a new kind into somebodys brain you 1st have to find a way to destroy the mine that is in there he spent 10 years experimenting on most important addictive trying to find ways roys a human mind the human spirit the human body human to the cultural context i mean these Ivy League White middle class people theres a class dimension to it but even they out on earth did they agreed to hiring nazis people implicated people who were involved in experimentation and the death camps i mean specially sydney gottlieb himself. His grandparents all of course i was really this is a fascinating part of this story so during at the very end of the 2nd world war. Head of our u. S. Secret service the l. S. S. Wrote a memo to president roosevelt saying that is the nazi regime was collapsing it would be important for the u. S. Government to try to hire nazi spy and bring them into working for the u. S. Government rather rejected this idea that were not going to hire any of those. But after a few months roosevelt with that through that was in power and that process went ahead after the very end mediately after the 2nd world war american intelligence officials were arresting many people in germany and they had files if you had a scientific background they would put a paper on your file so therefore operation paperclip became the name of the project by which nazis were brought to the United States and this was a process that involves something called shape because the records of the people had to be placed all references to membership in the net after the gestapo had to be. There would be little entries made into one of a family grammar. So the 1st group that came were by then the 2nd group was the Rocket Scientist that was very blunt then came the 30 bio warfare people the people who wanted to know how to control human money thought to themselves who is out there that has information that we dont have whos been experimenting people and that played out exactly what portion of them were kind that work on the human mind of the human by well if the nazi concentration camp doctors and the bio warfare experts all work for the 3rd reich the part about godly is particularly intriguing as you say godly jewish his parents emigrated from Central Europe at the beginning of the 20th century if they had not emigrated and you know sydney might well wild up being the victim of one of those horrific socalled medical experiments in a nazi concentration camp but in the event that didnt happen to grow up in the United States any didnt seem to have any problem working shoulder to shoulder with the nazi doctors who carried out the various maybe the senators. Worked on that committee on torture about guantanamo about abu ghraib maybe they should definitely read this was because ironically i suppose predictable that they then these nazi doctors this stuff engage in pulling torture injecting l. S. D. Into africanamericans and the tricity drugs you talk about mass poisonings in San Francisco youre absolutely right that project went completely off the rails largely due to gottlieb himself so does the San Francisco bay it was just one example youre right it involves our respective experiments on human subjects and the numbers of people die by god we also had all sorts of other interests one of them was l. S. D. Making 53 in the godly persuasions of the i. A. E. A. To buy the entire world supply of l. S. D. And use that for 2 purposes one was these horrific lee course an experiment into trying to destroy human minds but the other for less course of experiments including this bizarre program that he set up in San Francisco he wanted to see if there was a connection between drugs like l. S. D. And other one that so we got a guy in San Francisco to work for him in a hire a ring of prostitutes there were job was to go out pick up guys bring them back to a specially equipped apartment they were there be said l. S. D. And their reactions would be monitored by some fat drug agent who had no scientific background it was just sitting on a portable toilet drinking martinis out of a pitcher. This was called operation midnight a while back and so this National Security whore house was part of america ever to send itself against communism in the 850 this is how crazy m. K. Ultra what Stephen Kinzer ill stop you there more about the poisoner in chief after this break was on thin ice despite black lives matter protests over alleged murders by u. S. Security forces or the next to feel the force of us will enforce meant a 1000000 overseas students we tell you how you might escape the clutches of the immigration and Customs Enforcement agency as plans for mass deportations begin only civil coming up in part 2 going on to go. To what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy. Let it be an arms race. Spearing Dramatic Development the only really im going to i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical time time to sit down and talk. Just to make sure that the boat nash and the pool of blood in the well must have. Stopped actually so youre seeing them taste a tasty dish hes a sea ice which caught on. Here which i thought at which he never happened and thats what you. And i must determine in the end or to share. Or to go to the source of your might youre going to persevere. Its a mistake and so its a bit of im going to let them touch it or does it seem to be are you going to use to teach history to actually a person or soldiers to be wrong or should stop them spinning. Expressed. Welcome back im still here with Stephen Kinzer discussing the cias socalled mind control program m. K. Ultra tell me about the unintended consequences the cultural consequences in terms of the 60s counterculture well the irony of this has to do with the next government got the want to carry out of ordinary people so in and yes into the users of l. S. D. On prisoners or on people who are unaware not weve also want to see how an ordinary person would react to any in a clinical setting no i mean exactly what was happening so almost overnight a whole new Market Research people whod come in and volunteer one of them with easy the other of what went on to become the great government your classic one flew over the cuckoos nest actually he took it in the hospital and loved it so well actually he got a job in the hospital in the Veterans Administration hospital and well. Thats what gave him the. Material purpose fantastic book Arlen Ginsburg the radical poet was another of the very 1st volunteers to use the method of understood that the l. S. D. And they were using came from the new gottlieb and the i. A. E. A. Clearly also then go on to quote john lennon who said thank the cia if not to gottlieb i understand the Assassination Program was pretty lifing tell me about the press there better known the castro if you dont Castro Raul Castro che guevara assassination attempt by both labor and also Patrice Lumumba so the title of my book poisoner in chief refer to the i was does your talking about that of the campaign by unite in the late. Foreign leader did me god. Was the head of the Chemical Branch of the cia there was a logical that when the cia needed poison or any purpose including killing a foreign leader he would be the person they were turned in it was sidney got the. Poison that was supposed to have been used to poison the chinese leader joe and why that plot was thwarted later on fidel castro he became the target and it was godly who created all those elaborate devices you read about not only al pill thats the phrase i learned while reading the file i wish to help build elf as for lethal or help it was a little kill you he made those for castro but he also made things like a poison fountain and with an ultra fine so you wouldnt feel it went into your leg he made a poison wetsuit so that if castro put another and we need a way to get him the obviously none of these plots were successful then when the cia decided at the order of president eisenhower to assassinate Patrice Lumumba of the Prime Minister of the congo not only did godly make the boy carried from washington to the congo which i think makes him the only person in history at its best ever of carry government may poison to another country intended for the use in the fascinating the leader of that country you know we dont know if you believe these assassinations go on in your book you quote Richard Helms as saying the principal driving force was attorney general Robert Kennedy and you say theres an irony that actually the cia acid in paris was receiving a poison pen on the same day as as malcolm x. Said the chickens came home to roost and j. F. K. Roberts a brother was killed whatever you believe about the kennedy assassination all of the or even in some way didactic you. If it was oswald alone it was because he was a very we know of the fact the us is making again that it was castro it was revenge that was the end. It was because they didnt like any giving up on. The us it was because if you missed it was that the i am right out rogue elements of the National Hero it was because they were angry were going to be over here about it shell the 2nd has never left the Us Government actually died when i. Went to work on a persian thanks to you but you know it or thinking were still angry dont castro but we dont know how many hundreds of millions of lives may be affected by all these Foreign Policy decisions just finally whats happened to camp dietrich which reaches so much in this book is associated with plum island because of course there is a conspiracy in fact law some of us representative from the republicans because of a smith said lyme disease could have been created by camp dietrich its a disease 300000 americans that are diagnosed annually off what is kind of the trick now well 48 are going to now call was the center for development of u. S. Biological weapons and biological agents in general its now used for example purpose as a Storage Facility for. Anti dotes to possible global disease. It was rare that cindy got we maintain a secret cell in which cia scientists concocted there or the area out there other work. Now its not clear what kind of research is still going on behind some of the closed doors or people but its certain that they that. All we dont know how deep the u. S. Government is going into research for biological warfare some of which is going to buy us or whatever the u. S. Government is doing in this area its happening in your base in maryland game base was the center m. K. Ultra the place where the poisons were fabricated and the place where there is the most. Research or perhaps anywhere in the world waiting weapons. Heriot were defending against that kind of weaponization so. Vital and there reduce your role in this global cartography of bio warfare and the investigation biological tools if it be used a little. Simkins i thank you. Well away from the cia now to another arguably in from his u. S. Government agency ice or immigration and Customs Enforcement has grown a virus in black lives matter protests continue to rage it is threatening to deport maybe every overseas student from the usa but the leading immigration lawyer and former International Student is fighting back on american t. V. Joins me now via skype from chicago thanks unified and coming on more than a 1000000 International Students given the u. S. Student visas nastia one in earth is being threatened against the. Thanks for having me action i were kind of message by by this and so essentially earlier on this week. Changed course with regards to alliances for foreign students that were made kind of made hand and they said that if foreign students were going to be studying online and or attend an online only course thats for the false master and they would not be able to do that while maintaining their their student visa status here in the u. S. Now i know harvard and mit have already said theyre going to sue the trumpery ministration i mean this could really mean the mass deportation of say all u. K. Students from the United States. Well i mean that was certainly what i had put in there theyre interactive that they issued a essentially last foreign students that were going to be attending online only courses with a few options and i dont think any of the options are grace and the 1st is leave the last 2nd to try to scramble to transfer schools and a few weeks notice assuming they can find a course in a school that is not online only and force the schools to to go on to kind of change from online only to in person or face deportation so theyre the options that they were left with iraqs into law it is to say that harvard mit have already Northwestern University in chicago and recently just joined in support of harvard and mit position as well and i know you tweeted out a loophole a possible loophole i dont know whether youre being humorous about it ill get to that in a 2nd 1st of all do you think this seriously is a recognition by those in power in the u. S. That students they consume is but they dont contribute anything to United States society when theyre there i mean its certainly a slap in the face of the foreign students who come over and i just dont understand it from an economic point of view all the Economic Data goes to show how much foreign students contribute just like even living here you know 41000000000. 00 and theyve put into the u. S. Economy in the 2829000 academic here and just by being here their presence alone created over 450000 jobs here in the you asked so in the middle of a pontiac when the economy is suffering on so many ways i dont know why it makes sense to try to ecstatic Huge Population of emmer and that are clearly contributing so much now lets get to this loophole that could save students watching this program around the world they could be Something Like a one credit course that could save them from deep. You know their ability to return to the u. S. To resume studies well i know that the colleges and universities are looking into the office and there was provision for am type model where its not online only potentially codes foreign students and to stay but i think if that Administration Trump administration ice were trying to force schools to open i think their plan hasnt really works because instead of doing that theyve actually seen the administration so i would advise foreign students to terry and communicate with your university and sit and watch this space to see what happens with this lawsuit but technically if the university has gone to online because of coronavirus and it has just one tiny little course maybe half an hour long that is face to face that that would mean that they would not be deported by ice well theyre trying to figure out those details so there was provision for it you know that the directive spoke about online only so i think theyre trying to figure out exactly what that means and the kind of what are the promises of costs and so still being i think and investigated by the colleges and the universities but i know that i had rather. I think you know almost every professor from some of these big universities had volunteered to coleman to teach at n. P. R. s lynn class because they know important the foreign students are both economically but also these are these are peoples lives and i used to be a foreign student myself so advocating for a current foreign student something that im really passionate about you can just tell that the professors you know they care a lot about these students are from all over the world and its just not right and the possession that ice is taken given that the coronavirus is you know absolutely not under control in this country and aside from the nearly half a 1000000 jobs lost perhaps 41000000000 down to the u. S. Economy hundreds of thousands. Maybe affected in terms of a Student Accommodation in the us yeah actually that was one of the things. I had done an entry on almost immediately multiple landlords got in touch with me directly to say that they were rantings that they releasing their places to foreign students and that if they were deported as you know theyre asking me whats going to happen to their their apartment so i actually recommended that they consider writing a letter to the added or their local newspaper just from their point of view because you know its not just its bad enough that its directly on the foreign students but theres a huge Ripple Effect from this on some of the m. Pacts that it would have on landlords that are really saying to foreign students at the time of this interview joe biden has an issued anything from delaware about what hell do if he wins the white house in November Obama and biden deported many more than trump more than any other president in history or all the president s put together obama was known as the deporter in chief maybe more than 2 and a half 1000000 i mean any sign that actually could be worse than trump on these overseas students issues. You know i dont think that theres any theres absolutely no way the biden is going to you know implement these types of policies. And i think that ive actually looks at that with online but i brads through. Vice president bidens plan for immigration hes made a commitment to Immigration Reform to put it on the agenda in the 1st 100. 00 days his plan is very comprehensive addresses that the humanitarian aspects of immigration like the Asylum Seekers as you know in addition to looking so reform in the business immigration so addressing you know just the fact that the system is a dated and doesnt necessarily match up with the needs so there is no doubt in my mind theres no way we would see Something Like this from for your magazine thank you. Thank you for having me there for one of your favorite shows of the last season will be back for new seasons of cover the ride to show you dont miss an interview and join the other guy but for the papal visit grandma face a. During the vietnam war u. S. Forces also bomb to neighboring laos it was a secret war. And for years the American People did not know. Until our thelma is officially the mouth can rebound country per capita all Human History millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this Small Agricultural country Jordyn Wieber thing going to happen. Even today kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago is the u. S. Making amends for the tragedy in laos what help do the people need in that little land of mines. Trade and investment to become magic spells to conjure economic development. Most people think about trade they think about goods and services being exchanged between countries and the investment chapter of a trade agreement is about something very different but what one investment leads to toxic manufacturing that destroys sacred sites all ruins the environment. That means that if local communities that are being poisoned if they object if they do anything that the company feels is interrupting their profits they can do no multinationals are taking on a whole nations Philip Morris is trying to use i. S. T. s to stop. Implementing new regulations aimed at cutting domestic smoking rates are fringe company. Egypt because egypt resists minimum wage democratic choice over trump Corporate Law joins us as we try to find dont want to party. Trial of 14 people accused of involvement in the 2015 terrorist attacks in paris gets underway 5 years after the french capital stronger ties to some of the victims justice is long gone. So we want to know the truth because we dont know anything we havent heard anything for the past 5 years. In zone countries struggle to find a common approach to travel restrictions during the pandemic because hungary eudeline truly. All foreigners. With the United States deeply divided ahead of the president ial election in november thousands of americans are dead