Tremendous reporting. Should read their deeply sourced reporting about all of that. It is fascinating and devastating at the same time. Yes, exactly those two things, yes. Have a good weekend. You too. In august of 2020, donald trump was campaigning for reelection. We were in the throes of the covid19 pandemic. The summer saw a wave of protests and up risings over the murders of george floyd. To top it all off, the state of california was experiencing its largest wildfire season in recorded history. And it was that last crisis that prompted donald trump to say this during a campaign rally in pennsylvania. I see again the forest fires are starting. They're starting again in california. I said you have to clean your floors, you have to clean your floors. Many many years of leaves and broken trees. And they're like, like so flammable. You touch them and it goes up. I've been telling them this now for three years. But they don't want to listen. The environment, the environment but they have massive fires again in california. Maybe we're just going to have to make them pay for it. Maybe we're just going to have to make them pay for it. Trump bizarrely and falsely claimed that wildfires were somehow the result of california officials not cleaning the floors of the forest. And then threatened to make california pay for its own disaster relief. For the record, trump's claim has been thoroughly debunked. The state of california owns only 3% of its forests. The rest are owned by private groups or the federal government. I don't know if that includes cleaning the floors. Whatever that means. But that reality didn't keep trump from repeating this claim over and over again. The previous year when california wildfires were also raging, trump tweeted an angry screen at governor newsom. I told him from the first day we met that he must clean his forest floors. Then he comes to the federal government for financial help. No more. The year before that it was the same thing. Almost like a california wildfire tradition. That year, trump tweeted, billions of dollars are given each year with so many lives lost all because of gross mismanagement of the forests. Remedy now or no more fed payments. That was how donald trump acted when he was president. During moments of national disasters. He blamed the libs and threatened to withhold aid. He's still doing it. Just two weeks ago at a fundraiser in california, trump threatened to withhold future fire aid if governor gavin newsom didn't agree to change the state's water usage rules. And gavin nuskome is going to sign those papers. And if he doesn't sign those papers, we won't give him the money to put out fires. If we don't give him the money to put out fires, he is a lousy governor. Trump actually tried to do this before. In 2018 president trump actually did try to withhold disaster aid from california just because it was a blue state. To punish the americans who didn't vote for trump. Mark harvey a former senior disaster relief official in the trump white house, said he was only able to get trump to approve disaster relief to california by pulling up voting results from conservative leaning orange county. To show president trump that his own supporters had been heavily affected by the fires. Harvey told the out let, we went as far to looking at how many votes trump got many those impacted areas to show him these are the people who voted for you. And it wasn't just california. As president, donald trump directed fema to cover 100% of the costs for disaster in conservative areas like the florida panhandle. While objects ing to puerto rico and the virgin islands. Though, trump did manage to throw the people of puerto rico a few paper towels. About trump's nakedly political decisions on disaster aid. You can't only help those in need if they voted for you. It's the most basic part of being president and this guy knows nothing about it. Right now the biden administration is in the middle of trying to deal with the latest natural disaster to hit this country. The full extent of the damage from hurricane helene has yet to be realized. Right now, nbc news reports that over 220 people have died as a result of that storm. And hundreds of people are likely still missing. More than a week after hurricane helene nearly 700,000 people are still dealing with power outages. In some cases nearly impossible to reach people. Residents are also dealing with the health risks posed by the lack of access to clean water and toxic contamination that has resulted from the storm. Fema has already processed $45 million in direct assistance to the people affected by hurricane helene, trump has decided to use this disaster as fodder for his political campaign. Trump falsely claimed that hurricane victims are being denied relief money because the biden administration spent fema dollars on housing for migrants. Now for the record, this is totally false. The white house has responded in a statement saying, no disaster relief funding at all was used to support migrants, housing, and services. None at all. Trump may just be projecting here. The washington post reports that back in 2018, trump himself diverted money from fema so the border patrol could use it for migrant detention. Trump's claims about the biden harris response seem to follow the trump rule that every accusation is a confession. But that hasn't stopped the spread of misinformation among trump supporters especially online where trump has been aided by his pal elon musk in a quest to propagate lies. In addition to letting misinformation spread on his platform x, musk has been amplifying fake news. Things have gotten so out of hand that fema has had to make its own landing page on its fema website dedicated to debunking these rumors about recovery efforts. Trump traveled without irony saying that his focus right now is on people not politics i'm not thinking about voters right now, we're thinking about lives. A lot of lives lost, a lot of people missing. That's what i would be focused on right now. Joining me now are michelle goldburg, opinion columnist and george conway, lawyer and contributor for the atlantic. George, just first. Because you're a student of trump's strange psyche. What does the clearly confessional nature of these accusations tell you about i don't know where his head is at right now? well, you know. You're absolutely right. It's a form of projection. He attributes to others motives that he himself has. But it's more than that. I mean the words that came to mind when i read about this controversy today is the grossa luga. That's german. I don't speak german so forgive me pronunciation. It means the big lie. It was made up by hitler for a propaganda technique by which you tell as big a lie as possible so that people will believe bigger lies. They will believe bigger lies more than they believe smaller lies. Because they simply think it's impossible for anybody to have the ability to tell such a big lie. But trump does that. He's a pathological liar. His lies about the supposedly stolen election in 2020 were grosse luga. This is why he's a cancer on the american political life that must be removed once and for all. I will say michelle, i won't speak german on this broadcast. I will save our audience from that. But the lies, in particular and of late are really focused on people of color and specifically migrants. And the toxicity have increased in their sort of poison grade since the springfield debacle. The lies that haitian immigrants there were eating pets. This is what happened tonight. At a trump rally, and this is evidence michelle of how, successful trump has been in poisoning his audience. Let's take a listen. This week, we have learned that not only did 13,000, 13,000 murders illegally crossed our border but fema is out of money because they have been providing $9,000 to every illegal. Enough is enough. We must put americans first. How soon will you start deporting the murderers? so, let me just tell you that, you're right about that. It's 13,099 to be exact. Murderers, some of these people murdered more than one person. One did 7. The crime statistics are another kettle of fish. Some of those happened under the trump administration. Those numbers have not verified by nbc news, i believe. But this woman believes that fema gave $9,000 per migrant instead of spending on natural disasters. When j. D. Vance was asked what mass deportation looked like he didn't want to give a straight answer. Because nobody wants to talk about what it would mean to have a network of detention camps dotted throughout in country. What it means to have the national guard going into neighborhoods and rounding people up. And if you want to get even part of the american people to consent to that. And i mean, this actually does deserve probably some sort of german analogy. But you actually do need to convince people that they are, not human beings like you and i. I just want to add, on the jd vance answer. He was asked how are you going to deport 20, maybe he termed 25 million people who are here without their papers and he outlined how 1 million of them would leave because the wages wouldn't be what they wanted them to be. And the lest would selfdeport. There was no explanation of how that would all work. George, for your former party of republicans, the even i think attempt at the truth has become kind of a fools errand. Today as in, like october 4th the year 2024, marjory taylor green who is now weirdly because the party is so extreme, maybe one of the more rational actors in the republican conference in the house. Tweeted, sorry, yesterday october 3rd, yes they can control the weather. It's ridiculous for anyone to lie and say it can't be done. This is a member of congress, part of the intertrump sanctum. The truth does not matter. No in fact, they compete with each other to tell the biggest lie. The phrase you're looking for that michelle was talking about, there is a german phrase. Untermench. They are persuading the american public that people who come from other countries are under, are beneath them. But beneath man. Beneath human. This is a kind of poison that the republican party is spreading now. It is really, really sick. And it's difficult to chase it all down because they tell so many lies, so many big lies so quickly. I mean i looked at today. I walked into cbs this morning and i saw, a big headline in the new york postabout this lie. Perpetuating this lie that the government has blown all its money on migrants instead of the hurricane. And, you know it's, chasing down all these lies is hard and difficult work and it gets in the way of people actually getting help. I will say, michelle. You know i think it's laudable that fema has created its landing page to debunk these rumors. You put that effort up against tucker carlson, out there about, elon musk. About these actors propagating these lies. The misinformation that is the internet. I wonder if you have a thought of how for example kamala harris should be handling this. She came up with a statement. Biden came out with a statement. What is, the correct push back on a topic in particular where republicans have mud on their hands at best. They have consistently refused to fund fema. It is funded through the stopgap method in congress. The irony here is so thick you couldn't even slice it. They would have to be on the ground to call out the lies that trump is telling over and over again. But this is not an antidote. A lot of people were concerned about this. When you have a natural disaster that is a situation in which you need reliable information. And what they're doing is something vicious and cruel to the people in those regions. Who need to know who they can trust. I mean, they are telling, some of the lies that are out there, are that fema is going to confiscate your supplies. That fema can't be trusted. So what does that do to somebody who needs to go to fema for help? you know, they're instilling fear and paranoia in people who are deeply traumatized. This is only tkpwoeupblg to get worse. When you have a party that calls it a hoax and there's going to be more and more climate related disasters, they can only explain that with recourse to ever escalating conspiracy theories. That's a good point. They don't want to do anything about climate change. They don't want to fund fema which is the last saving grace for people in harms way then they're going to lie about migrants who help propel the american economy in a fundamental way. George, do you have a thought, i guess, about what harris or democrats or anybody who still lives on earth one should be doing in a moment like this when the lies are so, they are so malicious. I think you have to point out how malicious and how big the lies are. And try to get people to understand the propaganda technique of the grosa luga that's being employed here. Because they're employing it all the time. Look at trump's, i mean this is justice. These lies are just as credible as claims that the 80,000 harris supporters that you saw pop late her rallies after she got, after she became the presumptive nominee. Were all artificially created by ai. He's just trotting out big lie after big lie after big lie. And i think it just, can't be under stated how much of a pathological liar this man is. And how much of a permission structure he's created for other republicans and supporters to pass on these pathological lies. It's a sickness, and i think we have to nip it in the bud by pointing it out. And saying that you want to have a stable democracy under the rule of law. This has to be out of bound. These kinds of lies, this isn't shading about on the margins about how great a particular spending program is. Saying it'll create lots of jobs and maybe you're exaggerating a little bit. This is just, these are flat out malicious, evil, and dangerous lies that really you know, that people that harm people and harm our democracy. And it, it is a terrible thing to see in the united states of america in the 21st century that we are, that we have a political party that basically subsists on this mendacity. This level of mendacity. Extreme mendacity. It's a disgrace. No one can control the weather despite whatever marjory taylor green believes. No one. Just putting it out there for the world. Good check. George conway. Thank you both for your time this friday night. Thank you. The trump campaign is making a big dent on a newfangled ground game. Is it a smart strategy or a gigantic mistake? we'll get into that, next. (luke) homesdotcom is a new, elevated homeshopping experience. Beautiful design, tremendously rich content, and, my favorite touch, it's the only site that always connects you to the listing agent. Feels like a work of art! (marci) lovely. What about the app? (luke) uhoh! look what i did. It's ringing. Hello? hello? (marci) they can't hear you. (luke) hello? (marci) because you glued a frame over the microphone. (luke) i think i've glued the frame over the microphone. (vo) ding dong! homesdotcom. We've done your home work. 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Announcer: join with your debit or credit card now, and we'll send you this st. Jude tshirt that you can proudly wear. [speaking spanish] subject 7: are you ready to go have some fun? subject 8: yeah! subject 7: yay! subject 9: when we came here, we didn't know what tomorrow would hold. St. Jude showed us that tomorrow there's hope for our little girl to survive. Announcer: let's cure childhood cancer together. Please donate now. Hey, scott. This stuff's perfect for fall, right? yep! it feeds your lawn now to strengthen roots all winter for a better lawn next spring. How do you know all of this? says it right there on the bag. Yes, it does. Download the my lawn app today for lawn care tips and customized plans. Feed your lawn. Feed it. Okay, so, donald trump loves to talk about how he got 10 million more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. Now he always neglects to mention that he's still got 5 million fewer votes than president biden but, trump is not wrong about the 10 million figure. And that's weird, right. Trump's presidency was notable for how many republicans came out and said they voted for him in 2016 but just couldn't vote for him again in 2020. So how did he do it? where did he find those 10 million new votes? well, postelection analysis pointed to what are referred to as low propensity voters. Which in laymens terms mean people who don't normally vote. Nowhere were these impact of these low propensity voters than in florida. They pinpointed communities where they felt that they could pull some nonvoters and democrats to their side. They targeted black men, jewish households and spanish speaking communities. Trump won 4 out of 5 jewish households. He got lots of votes in puerto rican. In miami dade trump got 200,000 more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. Now, four years later trump's plan for this year's election is to take that florida strategy and to use it nationally bringing it to all of the swing states across the country. But there is a big difference between what the trump campaign did in florida in 2020, and what it is doing nationally right now. Rather than the campaign itself doing this low propensity voter outreach, the campaign is, outsourcing that outreach to third parties like this. There's actually a website in the state of michigan where you can find people who probably would vote for the candidate you're voting for. But don't vote. And you could look it up. It's called 10x votes you can go on there and just contact people you know. That was former fox news host tucker carlson last month telling people at his live show in michigan to go to this website. 10x votes. Com. And to use it to find right leaning contacts they know who don't typically vote. Aka low propensity voters and to use the site to get them to vote. Now this site does not appear to be affiliated with the trump campaign. It appears to just be the side project of a conservative guy in michigan. But that guy's side project is what tucker carlson and even the head of michigan's republican party are directing their supporters to. And that in and of itself is fairly revealing about the state of trump's ground game. Instead of running traditional get out the vote efforts themselvesless. Themselves. The trump campaign has seeded that work to super pac's like elon musk's america pack. So far it seems like a risky strategy. There have been so many reports from swing states saying they haven't seen any ground game whatsoever that someone familiar with the work these outside groups are doing felt the need to say this to politico. For those not seeing canvassers in traditional places, the answer is, no duh. We're not running a traditional program. No duh. Yeah, but is this really going to work? i'll get a view from the ground from indivisible's ezra1 is coming up next. Six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. Six digestive symptoms. The power of nature. Iberogast. ♪ rinse it out ♪ ♪ every now and then ♪ ♪ i get a little bit tired of the stinks ♪ ♪ that just will never come out ♪ ♪ pour downy in the rinse, jade ♪ ♪ every now and then i rinse it out! ♪ fights odor in just one wash. ♪ ♪ have you always had trouble losing weight ♪ every now and then i rinse it out! ♪ and keeping it off? same. Discover the power of wegovy®. ♪ ♪ with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. And some lost over 46 pounds. ♪ ♪ and i'm keeping the weight off. Wegovy® helps you lose weight and keep it off. I'm reducing my risk. Wegovy® is the only fdaapproved weightmanagement medicine that's proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events in adults with known heart disease and with either obesity or overweight. 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That's the power of we. ♪ ♪ check your cost and coverage before talking to your health care professional about wegovy®. [uplifting music] arearn: saint jude they gave it 110% every time. And for kenadie to get treatment here without having to pay anything was amazing. Always dry scoop before you run. Listen to me, the hot dog diet got me shredded. It's time we listen to science. One a day is formulated with key nutrients to support whole body health. One a day. Science that matters. [music “this little light of mine”] in the world's poorest places, children with cleft conditions live in darkness and shame. They're shunned, outcast, living in pain. You can reach out and change the life of a suffering child right now. A surgery that take as little as forty five minutes and your act of love can change a child's life forever. Please call, scan or go online to give a new smile. Thousands of children are waiting. What does a robot know. . . About love? it takes a human to translate that leap in our hearts. Into something we can see and hold. Etsy. This is important, our black men, we have to get them out to vote. That's number one. Kamala's opponent promised a lot of things last time. To the black community. That he did not deliver on. And, we've got to make sure we help black men understand that. Basketball legend magic johnson endorsed kamala harris earlier tonight at a michigan rally. Now young black men are among the subgroups of low propensity voters that both campaigns are targeting right now. The trump campaign is using a untested strategy focusing exclusively on low propensity voters and outsourcing the outreach. Joining me now is ezra leven. That is helping with get out the vote strategy in 16 states. I want to start with, the strategy you've seen on the left in terms of reaching low propensity voters. If you can talk to kind of what you've seen and what you think of the strategy. Yeah, so i think reaching out to low propensity voters can make a lot of sense for a campaign. And the conditions in which it makes sense for a campaign are one, is your side unified behind your candidate. Is there a lot of enthusiasm for your candidate. And three, do you have a really sophisticated ground game apparatus. Do you have field offices. Do you have a good system for reaching out to these voters. On the democratic side. We've got that. Look we are unified behind kamala harris. There's a huge amount of enthusiasm for kamala harris. We're trying to reach undecided voters. How do we get these undecided voters. They can vote for trump or harris. The much much larger population are the folks who would vote for harris if they turn out. But they might not turn out. So, at indivisible is how can we get to these voters. How can we contact these folks. There's people, as much as we love you, they're not getting the news from cable. They're more likely to be getting their news from tiktok, instagram, twitter. They're susceptible to misinformation. What we do is we mobilize neighbors to talk to their neighbors and we specifically target these low propensity voters and get their neighbors to go, talk to them. Not once, not twice but in some cases four or five times to say, hey, we know you're not necessarily paying attention right now but the stakes are really high. And we know you don't want an abortion ban nationwide. We know you don't want project 2025. We know you don't want tax cuts for billionaires. On the other side, look, when you're opponent is making a mistake i hate to push back against it. I love that their campaigning over to charlie and elon musk. Elon musk has never knocked on a door in his life. And kirk's claim for fame was running the program that lost statewide for blake masters and kerry lake. So by all means i want them running that campaign. And we'll keep on doing our tested thing. Only ezra because it's trump that seems to have a pull on the electoral, do i even consider this strategy of outsourcing this to third party groups even semiviable because trump seems to work on his own pull and weather. I am obsessed with this quote. For those not seeing canvassers, no duh. We're not running a typical campaign. Look, i understand that. And look we should take nothing for granted. The indivisible movement is folks who after 2016 thinking, what else could i do. We're not going to see a replay of that. But the fact of the matter is, in 2018, we built the largest midterm margins of the republic to take back the house. Term became the one term president in years. I think the trend is pretty clear. Maga is an electoral loser. I would not take that for granted. It is up to us to do the work. They fumbled the ball. They're fumbling the ball. We have to pick it up. I would encourage everybody to internal aoeutz. There are more of us than them. There are more prodemocracy americans. There are more people who reject project 2025. That brings you to the second thing you have to understand. Our challenging and organizing challenge. It's just an organizing challenge. If we get our side together we can actually win this. So i would encourage folks check out indivisable. Com. Still to come this evening, people who believe donald trump's big lie continue to pay the price for that belief. While the man they are trying to help keeps evading accountability. Former president barack obama is trying to help democrats keep control of upper chamber. That's next. Lakesha: childhood cancer is it's hard. But st. Jude has gotten us through it. St. Jude is hope for every child diagnosed with cancer (children speaking) because the research is being shared all over the world. Conflict is raging across the world, and millions of children's lives are being devastated by war, hunger, disease and poverty. 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Most people call leaffilter when their gutters are clogged and they notice one of the many issues that can bring. Sometimes it's the smell of mildew when water has seeped into the interior walls. Or maybe they've spotted mold in the attic. But most often it's the more obvious signs of damage like rotten soffit, fascia, or water pooling near their foundation. You can get ahead of costly damage by protecting your home's gutters today. We're in your neighborhood and ready to help. Schedule your free gutter inspection today, call 833 leaffilter, or visit leaffilter. Com what does a robot know about love? it takes a human cal to translateter, that leap in our hearts into something we can see and hold. Etsy. Hayden: the fact st. Jude will take care of all this, this is what's keeping my baby girl alive. Chelsea: it's everything for us. We wouldn't know what to do. We couldn't afford for our little girl to survive. And st. Jude gives us that. [music playing] michigan this is barack obama. I want to talk to you about the alisa sliken i know. Alisa is type of leader we need. Tough, and effective. She'll get the job done. Former president barack obama in the home stretch of the election season throwing his weight behind a handful of senate races including in the battleground state of michigan. Democratic control of the senate in the next congress hangs by a thread. Republicans only have to flip two of the currently democratic held seats to gain the majority in the senate and they basically already have one in their column. The seat being vacated by west virginia senator joe mansion. Republicans are trying to flip seats in montana, ohio, wisconsin, arizona, nevada and maryland. And democrats are fighting to keep what they have while eyeing a few republican seats in florida and texas. Joining me now is democratic strategist adam gentelson. Adam, thank you for being with us here tonight. I wanted to talk about the senate for so long we won't have nearly enough time to talk about it. But let's start in ohio. Moreno is running for brown. Bernie moreno said two weeks ago that abortion shouldn't be an issue for women over the age of 50 and also, has been pushing the lie about haitian migrants eating pets. How is this still a toss up race? it's a toss up race because ohio has gotten a lot redder over the last few election cycles. And you know, it wasn't that long ago that ohio was a purple state. Barack obama won it in both 2008 and 2012. So, but you know, over the 10 years, i hate to think it's been 10 years since obama's second term but it's gotten a lot redder. Brown is a tremendous senator. The reason this race is competitive. The reason he's ahead right now is that he's such a strong fighter. But he's fighting against very strong forces pulling to the right in that state. And i just want to say one thing about that bernie moreno quote you mentioned. That abortion quote was so amazing because this wasn't a tracker video. This wasn't someone tracking the question to him. When moreno said that about abortion. He was answering another question. He said and another thing let me tell you about abortion. He had that insane answer. It shows how much of an extremist he is. This race is going and it's going to be close all the way to the wire because the fundamental forces pulling to the right in the state of ohio. When you think about those seismic forces in the 21st century in the year 2024. I wonder how you think that plays out. She had an eight point lead in august which is now down to a 57 point spread. That's due to independent voters who seem to be in the words of the cook political report coming home for her republican opponent mike rogers. In wisconsin baldwin is leading by 2 points but that's again from a 7 point spread earlier this summer. That's independence moving to the republicans. What are the forces there. Is that ultimate sort of polarization. Do you think that's a change in ticket. How do you look at that? independence still exists. The fact they don't exist is sort of a myth of our culture right now. The idea of polarization can be taken too far sometimes. But they are a much smaller group. That much is definitely true. And so, in any of these swing states they are hotly contested. A 7 point win by either candidate is not really in the cards anymore in our era of polarization because that pool of undecided voters is so much smaller. It doesn't cause me any more to be in these tight races and purple states myself. To see a 7 point lead go down to 4 or even three points this late in the game. We are after all only a month from election day. As shocking as it is to say that. But, you know, that pool of small undecided voters is going to break you know 2/3 in one direction or 3/4 in one direction. And i think that's what you're seeing here. Those leads are shrinking but they're being maintained by the democrats. So some undecided voters are coming home to republicans but enough of them are coming home for the democrats if they're still able to hang on to these statistically significant leads that will brings them to victory. It'll be tight but they'll make it. That might be a ceiling in terms of a movement rather than a suggestion that it's going to continue to sway in the direction as the days tick on. I have to ask you about texas. Because i think there's probably a lot of people in the world that would like to see ted cruz take his name plate off the door in the senate. It has been sort of the kicking cruz out of the upper chamber has been something democrats have wanted for years now. Collin allred the democrat running in that senate race is only running four points behind ted cruz and the cook political report moved that race from likely republican to leaning republican. How much hope should democrats pin on that race? i think texas is always worth taking a serious look at in terms of investment. I think democrats are right to invest in it. Because it is such a massive prize. And the margin is relatively small. And because collin allred is a very talented, very strong candidate. And ted cruz is a weak opponent. So, it's worth it because it is such a prize in terms of electoral votes. It's such a prize in terms of culture and what it would mean for the democratic party to have california, texas and new york in the democratic party. Democrats have some money to spend right now. I think they're smart to spend it in texas. His popular lar preen is one word for it. I can think of another to describe what ted cruz has been doing in the senate, but it is a family program. Thank you for your time this friday night, my friend. Great to see you, alex. When we come back, the big lie claims another victim, but will donald trump ever face the consequences? joyce vance joins me, next. Nex you should use it every wash, otherwise the flakes will come back. He's right, you know. Is that tiny troy? the ingredients in head & shoulders keep the microbes that cause flakes at bay. Microbes, really? they're always on your scalp. . . But good news, there's no itchiness, dryness or flakes down here. I love tiny troy. And his tiny gorgeous hair. Make every wash count! and for stubborn dandruff, try head & shoulders clinical strength. Speaker: my little miracle is beckett. [christina perri, a thousand years] i have died every day waiting for you. We wouldn't be where we are without saint jude. And in turn, we wouldn't be where we are without those people that have donated. I made a promise to my daughter that i would get my college degree. I had 20 years of experience as an hr professional. I had reached a ceiling, so i enrolled in umgc. 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Rsv? make it arexvy. ♪♪ [uplifting music] arearn: saint jude they gave it 110% every time. And for kenadie to get treatment here without having to pay anything was amazing. We were made for houleye. Made to bring her joy. Because when a scary tumor threatened her story, we became her magic. Every nut and bolt became special. Each hand and tool dedicated to one quest, erasing that tumor and keeping her story alive. Because we were made for houleye. There are many things in my mind that our crystal clear about this case. You are no hero, you abused your position and you are a charlatan who used and are still using your prior position in office to pedal a snake oil that has been proven to be junk time and time again. That was a colorado judge yesterday as he sentenced former elections official, county clerk tina peters to nine years behind bars. Peters was convicted of multiple felonies for tampering with voting machines to prove the big lie, even though donald trump one heard county in the election by nearly 30 points. Joining me now is joyce vance, former u. S. Attorney for the northern district of alabama. Thank you for being here. I think a lot of people have heard trump plans on pardoning january 6 rioters and could offer pardons to steve bannon or peter navarro, but for these actors like tina peters, the cavalry is not coming, is that right? absolutely right. Trump cannot give her a pardon for a state of colorado crime she has been convicted of. She will serve about 50% of that sentence. She is eligible for parole once she serves 50% of it. That is the most forgiveness she can look forward to. And your experience i wonder how chilling or how much of a deterrent effect sentences like this, trials like this, comments by the judge, how impactful that is in terms of, you know, warding off future crimes of a similar sort and i think of that in the context of the 2024 election. You know they really do have a deterrent effect, alex, and i suspect that was in the front of this judges mind as he sentenced, because this was a defendant who did not admit she created crimes. Who did not say she was wrong to abuse the public trust to try to prove trump's big lie and with the 2024 election already underway, that had to be a consideration he engaged in. He told her she was a danger to her community and that danger comes in the context of future elections. From sentencing, from a trial standpoint, when you have something as highprofile as this, the tina peters case unfolding and the sentence she has gotten. I know justice is blind and so forth. There are similar fake collector plots, big lie allies and their trials playing out in georgia, arizona, michigan, wisconsin. Do the judges in those cases look at what has happened in colorado? a much are their eyes on what is happening to a precursor to what happens elsewhere in the country? yeah, it is a really great question. If we are thinking about sentencing, in federal sentencing, judges try to give defendants who engage in similar conduct, similar sentences. There is an entire regulatory body called the federal sentencing guidelines and judges make that effort. So a judge in colorado might look at what happens in washington, d. C. And vice versa, but not so much in state court and this sentences long in large part because of the fact that she showed no remorse. Also there were separate charges she was convicted on and typically the sentence for all of those charges will run consecutively. Rather, concurrently. You get to serve them all at the same time. Here the judge explicitly ran some of those sentences consecutively, so she has to serve the sentences for counts 1 to 4 and for other counts after that and it stacks up to a nine year long sentence. Wow. I do wonder how this all shakes out for the guy at the top of the pyramid of lies, donald trump. We know this week that he was supposed to reply i think to the 126 page filing from the special counsel about why he should not receive immunity on some of those criminal counts. He has succeeded in pushing his deadline to respond until after the election. What does that practically mean here, joyce? well, look, i think we need to think about it globally and we have to say that our criminal justice system did not work as smoothly as we would have liked for donald trump. That feels like a major understatement. Those words coming out of my mouth. But the reality is whether the justice department was slow off the mark, whether the supreme court intervened in a way that had more of a stench of politics than of law or whether it was because trump manipulated the legal system or a combination of all of those three. This is an individual who should have faced accountability a long time ago, at the hands of the jury and whether that jury chose to convict or not would have been up to the jury. The process has been delayed, it has been slow and it has not served the american public well. I think that is a question we will have to deal with obviously afterthefact, but looking forward as j. D. Vance likes to do and thinking about what the future might hold, i think something we can still have