the federal election case brought by special counsel jack smith has been on hold for more than six months now. that in and of itself a victory for trump as he uses every lever of the justice system available to any criminal deft to his advantage. to avoid standing trial before the election in november, at which point if he prevails and is elected, he can dismiss the felony counts he faces for attempting a coup. as we have pointed out on this patrol before, every day that goes by without a decision one way or the other from the supreme court is a victory for trump. it's a day that trump gets closer to his goal. it's a glaring delay for many other reasons as well. there's the fact that not one but two of the nine justices are facing calls for recusal. one whose home flew a flag flown by the january 6th insurrectionists at the catch toll on his property. the other has a wife who was involved in urging state legislatures to overturn joe biden's victory. there's the facts at hand in the case itself, the legal questions. there's an op-ed, trump's lawyers put together a set of arguments that are so outlandish it shouldn't take much time. among them is the upside down claim because the constitution specifies that an officer who is convicted in an impeachment proceeding may face a criminal trial. the constitution actually requires an impeachment conviction before there is any criminal punishment. that gets things backward. the constitution confirms that impeachment is not prerequisite. and yet trump's lawyers continued to take the untenable position in response to questioning that a president who orders the assassination of a political rival could not face criminal charges absent impeachment by the house and conviction in the senate. it does not take weeks to explain why these arguments are wrong. we also know that the court is entirely capable of moving quickly if and when they want to. in the other big case involving the ex-president and the election this year, the question on whether trump could be on the ballot at all because of clause in the 14th amendment that bans insurrectionists from holding office, the supreme court super speedy delivered a denuclearization just two months after trump's appeal to the supreme court. "the new york times" reports this. in addition to the disqualification case, two and a half years ago, the court scheduled a challenge to the biden administration's test or vaccinate policy two weeks after the justices decide to hear it. and then issued a decision invalidating the policy less than a week later. the fact that the court heard just 61 cases this term. that's what the "wall street journal" says is, quote, close to an historic low. so a pattern exists, has emerged. speed, something they are capable of, something they have done very recently. it's a priority for them. if and when it benefits donald trump and his maga movement. the supreme court tipping the scales in favor of donald trump is where we begin today. senior editor for slate is with us. plus attorney, founder of democracy docket mark alice is here. dalia, tell me if we're asking the right questions. why do they think they will be done on a normal schedule at all? are we sure we are looking at the right chunk of the schedule. could this go into july or august? >> i think it's fair to say that they are on target-issue to be done next friday, a week from form, which is formally when they are supposed to be done, or to maybe bleed into a little bit that first week of july, which has historically happened when they can't get to all their cases at the end of june. the notion that the chief justice might let this lurch on into august is probably beyond belief. but i think that it's really important to understand that even though there's only 19 remaining cases, you could sort of reach into the bag and pick any three of them and they would be the biggest case of the term. this is such an incredibly drama-heavy docket that when you have guns and the epa and abortion and january 6th and immunity and content moderation, it's all there. so of course, they are having a hard time getting it all done. they bit off way more than they could chew when they took all cases in the first place. >> they made fools of anyone who thought they would see the national interests in deciding presidential immunity in a timely manner. any visibility into where that is? is it done? is it written? are they sitting on it? are they briefing? do we know anything about that decision? >> i don't know anything. i haven't heard anyone who has asserted that they know anything. i think it's certainly possible that we have a dissent or an opinion taking an awfully long time to write. and again, the chief justice, we always have to say, he can't put anyone in the naughty boy chair. he can't say to anybody turn in your work on time. in some sense, we are all at the mercy of the pesh who wants to run out the clock in this case. >> mark, what dalia describes exacerbates an existing problem. it's not the media coverage of the court. it is the way the court functions. and the way the court seems to relish the public's perception of this t as lacking ethics, lacking transparency and being a willing partisan player. what do you make of what's coming down? what's ahead of them seems if you wanted to orchestrate a final two, three, i'll be amazed if it ends in sort of a normal timely way. orchestrate something to give the public the perception that you're putting your finger on the scale politically. this is exactly what you would do. >> i don't know how you could say that they didn't put their finger on the scale politically with respect to the immunity case let's start at the beginning. there was an immunity ruling against donald trump that went to the d.c. kit. the circuit affirmed it and wrote a thoughtful opinion. anded the supreme court didn't have to take the case. then they took the case and rather than schedule it for immediate argument, they scheduled it for a late argument. now they have not ruled on it quickly. they have effectively conferred an immunity by delay on donald trump. he has gotten the immunity. let's be clear. there's nothing in the constitution that gives presidents immunity. in fact, to the contrary, the text of the constitution suggests presidents don't have immunity since the legislative branch doesn't have immunity that's not shared with the executive branch. at least some members of the supreme court by manipulating the calendar, by simply sitting on deciding to hear a case didn't have to and how it got decided, they have granted donald trump the relief he sought, which there will be no trial before the november election. that's a tragedy for democracy. it's a thumb on the scale and it does nothing other than undermine people's confident in the supreme court. >> former attorney general eric holder had some thoughts along the same lines. let me share what he had to say. >> it's hard to understand why the court even took this case. when the justice kavanaugh says we have to write for the ages. you need to decide the case in front of you on the basis of the facts and the law that has beenen presented to you. if you do that, you'll reach the same conclusion as the appellate court. that a president needs to be held accountable that any other american would be. any result other than that is, i think, both absurd and extremely dangerous. >> the court seems to have made a bet people are either too stupid to figure this out, that because there's no cameras we won't know what's done. i think of all the issues with and without consuming mounds and mounds of news is that there's something very wrong at the supreme court. its decisions on abortion and potentially on this one as well are well out of the mainstream of our right/left debate in the country. what are the stakes for the court as they get ready to release whatever decision they have made on immunity? >> i think it's not just that they are outside the mainstream. but they seem unworried. there have always been a range of positions and ways of interpreting the constitution. you have had more progressive views of how you interpret the constitution articulated by justices, and you have had more conservative ways of interpreting the constitution. originism being the dominant conservative theories. but in recent years, particularly in some of the arguments this term and the immunity argument is a good example, we are kind of going into the case where the justices are listening to the cases and getting a vibe for whether or not it accords with what they would like the outcome to be or not. not what the text said. the founders originally had no concept of giving presidents immunity. there's nothing in the text of the constitution that gives them immunity. in the dobbs decision, they discarded what several of them in their confirmation hearing were precedent upon precedent. it got thrown away like a used tissue. it's the nature of the decision making as much as anything else that i think is causing a crisis in confidence in the supreme court. make no mistake. when the supreme court has a crisis of confidence, it's no one's fault but their own. the chief justice ended last term with a very stinging opinion in which he said basically, people have to stop criticizing us so much because the courts need to have their integrity. that integrity is earned. it is not something that is tick indicated. if the supreme court is losing the public confidence, they need to look inward, not outward. >> andrew weisman has joined us. they also at every fork in the road, they take the fu public path. they could disclose the gifts proving that gifts were taken and not disclosed. they could recuse from case where is their spouses are cheering on the people who have been convicted of many, many crimes by the department of justice. ginni thomas and alito are on the side where the department of justice has sent hundreds of people to jail. the criminals. it also happens to be donald trump's side, but it's the largest prosecution in the history of the department of justice. and they are on that side. it is so twisted. i want to read politico's reporting on the political fallout of trump's conviction in new york. quote, the least trusted group of actors did not turn out to be the usual suspects, but the supreme court justices. 39% of all respondents reported having a great deal or fair amount of trust in the justices, a figure that roughly tracks the court's low approval ratings under the conservative super majority. something isn't working. i wonder what you think that means we should gurd for in this final flurry of decisions, especially in immunity. >> i'm going to add fuel to the fire because i want people to understand a couple options that the supreme court could have taken in addition to sort of the obvious ones, which was either to not hear the case or to hear the case six months ago and decide it quickly, which mark and dalia have spoke about. but here's another thing which i have seen courts do in my own experience, which is one of the reasons that there was a problem is because there's a stay right now of a criminal case. normally when courts have that, they put the criminal case sort of ahead of everything else because they know that the public's right to a speedy trial, the defendant being under a criminal indictment, all of that is a reason to act. so they could have heard this case much quicker, but they also could have decided that the stay should be lifted at least for the pretrial proceedings. in other words, that is one of the big problems here is that the trial judge cannot do anything on the case. can't do any of the pretrial work that was scheduled here because that stay is in place. but there was no reason that they didn't address that at the oral argument and focus on whether it was appropriate given that there's just no way that they are going to say that the five justices say a precedent is immune from this particular criminal case. if they are going to say that, we are just so gone as a country if they gro down that road that i can't contemplate it because there's really no check then on executive power. and so they really could have lifted that stay. the other is to the extent that they are saying we're going to do things in the normal course, and we're going to decide the oldest cases first and the most recent cases last, and this case just came up late in the day. that's not how courts operate when both sides have an interest in speed and the courts should have an interest in speed because of this pending criminal case. and both sides actually have the only legitimate interest was for speed here. trump because he's saying i should be charged at all because i'm immune so he'd want that decided quickly, and jack smith because he's saying there's a public right to have a trial quickly. and so you really end up, as marcus said, with the supreme court disgracing itself in terms of adherence to the rule of law. it is might makes right in the very last place in our democracy where that should be the rule. >> let me show you, i think we're sort of left to rely on dalia to rely on the utterances of some of the liberal justices, things that they say at other events. let me just play justice jackson's question during oral arguments. >> what i'm more worried about, you seem to be worried about the president being child. i think we would have a significant opposite problem if the president wasn't chilled. if someone with those kinds of powers, the most powerful person in the world, with the greatest amount of authority could go into office knowing that there would be no potential penalty for committing crimes, i'm trying to understand what the disincentive is from turning the oval office into the seat of criminal activity in this country. >> andrew weisman, if trump were capable of writing a mission statement for his campaign, that would be it. he's telling his supporters i'm your retribution. to be pardoned. to be there to exonerate myself from the consequences of the crimes i committed. that's what it's all about. and i feel like when a justice says something is the opposite, we should hear them because i feel like that is as clear as anything that was uttered during oral arguments. >> absolutely, 1,000%. it tells you how far we have come when you look back to the decisions during the nixon era where there was unanimity with respect to the role of the court, that the court is a separate institution and is vital to checks and balances. what you're seeing on the part of the court, and on the part of the legislative branch in congress is capitulation. this is the razor's edge of autocracy. it is almost unbelievable that judge jackson had to say that and that it wasn't a given given the court's precedent, and that we are at this place. and just to be clear where we are, it does not almost matter if the court's write a flowery decision about how presidents are not above the law, that's irrelevant because what they have held defacto is this president is. and everything that happened on january 6th is being whitewashed by the fact that they have sat on this case. >> all right. much more when we come back. more signs of corruption as the nation's highest court. senator sheldon white house will join us on everything we have been talking about as well as the gifts from tuition, private planes, yacht trips, vacation, happily accepted, never disclosed by justice thomas. the senator will join us next on what to make of everything we face. plus one week to go before the first presidential debate of the 2024 general election campaign season. lordy, there are tapes. there's a brand new audio recording of donald trump admitting that he lost the election in 2020. we'll show it to you. later in the broadcast, what we are learning today about the judge at the center of the mar-a-lago documents case and how even her own colleagues on the bench urged her to walk away, to step aside from this case. we'll bring you that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick. don't go anywhere. enjoy more savings on 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un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. turning our coverage to democratic senator from rhode island, member of the senate judiciary committee. i want to put up this fantastic new way to draw the public's attention to the epic scale of the corruption on the gifts front. this is clarence thomas' list of gifts and growing. let me put that up. ♪♪ >> we don't have enough time to ask all the questions we want to ask and play the whole thing. but it's a powerful new way to illustrate the depths of what we have been talking about, the disparity between public service and transparency and the growing numbers of american who is do not trust this supreme court. >> yeah, there are 25 different significant gifts that have been not disclosed and probably more than we could find out about that's just what we know about that's comp up publicly, but not disclosed. luckily, the judicial conference is looking at whether or not to make the filing requirements retroactive when they recently cleaned up after the scalia trick. so if they say that it's a clarification, that means it was always the rule and they will have to go back and will get even more information. this is just what we know. it could be even worse. >> senator, what do you make of this moment? we find ourselves on the precipice of learning of whether or not these justices believe a president is functionally a king in america. it would change not just what americans think, but what the world thinks of america. no decision today it's not clear that everything will be done in a week. what do you think is going on? >> first of all, bravo on the panel. that's a pretty smoking group. i think what's going on is that they know they can't make it a decision that is the least bit credible that actually grants trump immunity. so the court or a setting the of it that can slow down the process is as wise man said, slowing down the process. this is a court that knows how to meet a deadline. they decided the colorado case about trump, the 14th amendment case, in 25 days. because he needed to be put on the ballot in colorado. they decided bush v. gore in one day after oral argument. so all this foot dragging we're seeing now has every appearance of being strategic and deliberate by at least some justices trying to give trump every window he can to avoid accountability for his criminal actions. he's quite a unique criminal in the way he's treated by this court. >> it feels like an extraordinary moment, even for this court. and you add to it the personal ties to the insurrection in the homes of justice alito and justice thomas. do you view this as an extraordinary moment for the court and does that require an extraordinary response from the judiciary committee? >> i think it requires an extraordinary response from congress at large. i hope we will get a vote on the ethics bill. but there's more to this than the ethics problems. all of these decisions interconnect these troublesome decisions. there's a through line. the billionaires who funded the effort that put the justices on the court. the relief from pollution regulations that they have been getting from the court. they want trump elected so he will lower their taxes and here's the court delivering trump to them. and go piece by piece through all of the troublesome decisions. and the constant through line is not originalism, it's the far right billionaires who put them on the court win. they may win just a little instead of a lot, but it's enough that the direction is clear. the pattern is obvious. the pattern is incredibly damaging to the institution of the court. >> what's amazing is that you don't have a partner on the court. the beneficiary of more transparency of an ethics code that matches that of oh federal judges, the beneficiary is the supreme court. are there any back channels to anyone there to try to get them to row in the same direction? >> the closest that i have been able to find is to engage with the judicial conference, which is the body of very senior chief justice judges that overses the judicial branch and also oversees ethics disclosure, discipline. when they see the justices doing stuff that's clearly unacceptable in their own courts, they have been helpful. they blew up the scalia trick of recruiting resort owners to give them free vacations and pretending that the personal invitation made it personal hospitality. they just required more transparency through which the billionaires communicate through the justices. there's some real distress and concern among other judges, but the court itself, haven't seen is a peep. not out of even the ones appointed by the democratic presidents. >> i want to bring you back. now that the senator has hailed you all as fabulous, as we think you are, i feel like i can bring us in the same conversation. the business-friendly agenda is one piece of it. the other is the voter unfriendly piece of it. it played part of the interview with eric holder yesterday. the hostility, the anti-democratic pattern is also one that can be pretty well established at this point. >> yeah, so first of all, i want to point out that when we talk about gifts and we talk about disclosure, we have shifted a long way. the question is not just why haven't these gives me disclosed, but why are they accepting them. when andrew weissman was a federal prosecutor, i couldn't buy him dinner without him violating the gift rules. so we need to be asking the question why are they accepting the gifts. so to answer your question about the voting rights, we haven't seen a pro voting decision out of the supreme court in a really long time. we have seen cases where we have won, but that's largely to maintain the status quo. so my team won the big alabama case last term in the supreme court. but that was just preserving a voting rights victory that had been won at the trial court. we also won last term the independent legislature theory case. but that was a fringe right wing theory that people were afraid they were going to adopt. so it was a victory, but it wasn't actually advancing voting rights. it was stopping the bad things from happening. so we need a court system that is a validly pro democracy. we need a judicial system that puts free and fair elections above other business rights. we need, frankly, bar associations and lawyers and law schools and law firms to say that attacking democracy, that attacking the bedrock underpinnings of free and fair elections is not acceptable behavior. so there really is a lot of work here for the court to do for the bar to do, for lawyers to do, for other judges to do because we are fighting every day against a growing threat that we are nearing the end of an american democratic experiment and that totalitarianism and authoritarianism will replace free and fair elections with fake democracy we have seen sweep many other countries in history. >> senator, i'll give you the last word with a question. with the stakes as high as you all articulated here today, would you consider having hearings around the country and listening -- is there a role for the public to play five months ahead of an election to understand the stakes of the election? the prn who wins will decide who goes on the court next. >> i think it is incumbent on all of us in the senate, in the house and the president himself in his campaign to explain clearly to the american people what's at stake here. that billionaires, who could never get their policies adopted even republican-controlled chambers of congress, instead went to the court because it is not democratically sensitive and people would do their bidding and they have been winning. as a result, they have been changing the very nature of america in their favor in ways the public doesn't one. don't align with our history. butt court is enforcing. that make it is a real danger. we have to appreciate that danger in order to appreciate how important this november's election is going to be. >> senator, thank you for having this conversation with us. when we come back, nationalism has arrived. there's a new law requiring the ten commandments to be displayed in every public classroom in the state of louisiana. one that could be challenged by the supreme court. another test with just how far the court has moved to the right. that's next. d to the right. that's next. 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the national religious broadcasters. very closely to as he vowed to defend them from nonexistent attacks on their allegedly share ed faith. it's not surprising that far right christian nationalists see an opening to pursue their agenda under a possible second trump presidency they are not waste anything time. louisiana is now the first state in the country to require every public school to display the ten commandments in every single classroom. just hours after the law was signed, the aclu announced it would be suing to stop the law from going into effect. the case is very likely to reach the united states supreme court, which is stacked with conservative justices. one of whom justice alito flew a christian nationalist flag outside his new jersey home. joining our coverage is national religion correspondent, coauthor of the "the fall of roe" is with us. dalia and andrew are back. jump in as to whether this is likely, in your view, to be a case they take. >> i mean, the answer, the old timy answer from two or three terms ago is this is a crazy case. it's unconstitutional in every particular. the court has decided vir yulely identical cases in the past. there's no set of facts where you can coerce children in a public school classroom to see protestant version, so it's extra sectarian version of the ten commandments. so in any other time, the answer is this should be open and shut and the opponents of this measure should win by every law on the book. i think we're in the wild west now. i think we're in a time when the court has hung out a sign that says bring us your bump stocks. bring us your air pollution. bring us whatever you want and we are here to revisit centuries worth of doctrine because there's no such thing as precedent. and as senator white house just explined, we're also open for business. is so i don't know if this court could change its mind on decades worth of precedent on the establishment clause. i know they have signalled that they are willing to change its mind on everything else. >> that is so radical. i need you to say more. >> i mean, i think it's simply the case that we are in a very, very fragile moment where the supreme court doesn't need to overturn things on its own steam. we have seen an entire term now where a lower court judge in texas decide on his own recognizance that he could get the drug removed from the market nationwide. we have seen a lower court in texas say that if you are subject to a domestic violence order, you can go ahead and get your guns back because there was no such thing as domestic violence at the founding. we are seeing texas announce that it now controls federal immigration law and just case after case after case this term was the kind of big swing, crazy pants argument. we talked about the independent state legislature case from last year. there's very little that the court is not doing right now because somebody, somewhere, whether it was a state or lower court judge just decided that precedent doesn't matter. the court is in the business of affirming some of those as okay, knocking some of them back because they are too extreme. but i think we need to understand that to the degree that precedent was supposed to mean, we live in a somewhat stable world where the law will be tomorrow what it was yesterday and you can plant your economic life, your personal safety, the health of covisit vaccines, you could plan all that around an understanding that the law is meant to be a stable entity. those days are just over. now we're just sitting here in this dunk tank waiting to see what falls and what rises. and again, this is driven by state governors who say let's take a swing and get rid of decades of precedent about what church and state entangle the really means. >> you write about this in the book. this is all reportable. you report out. >> we do. what we saw in the louisiana case yesterday is just the latest extension of this growing network of conservative christians who are finding new ways that pull levers of power in american politics and culture and law in order to reshape the country to align with the values that they want to see in the country. so yesterday it was the louisiana law about the ten commandments, but in our book, we document the long plan of how this network grew and worked on strategies for years out of the main public eye to overturn roe v. wade. we're still seeing this influence now on issues of ivf, on access to abortion medication, and on some forms of contraception. so really the unless you understand the deep spiritual roots and motivations for many of these people who have devoted their lives to advancing their conservative christian mission, it's really impact to understand how america is where we are today. if you understand how roe fell, you're really going to understand the direction that the country is headed with cases like the louisiana case. >> i mean, it's also the tie to other christian nationalist movements in 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[mind blown explosion noise] ♪♪ he said something to the effect of i don't know that we lost mark, it's embarrassing, figure it out. i don't want people to know that we lost. >> his again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. trump knew all along, right? that he lost, even though he's raged for four years that the 2020 presidential election was somehow stolen from him, in private, even donald trump has admitted the truth. even donald trump knows the trust. it's a truth he's so embarrassed about that this guy beat him in the 2020 presidential election. today in a new tape, we're hearing that progressive admission in the ex-president's own words on tape. a remarkable slip of the mask, right? trump's facade made during one of his half-dozen interviews with ramin satooda. we spoke with him on the program yesterday. here is that never before heard exchange that came up when trump was talking about former fox news commentator, geraldo rivera. commentator, geraldo rivera so, despite trump's efforts to put his mask back on, right? quickly cover it up. you heard the truth pour out of him. call me after i lost -- i mean i won, but he lost. he admitted it on tape. but meanwhile, publicly, and even there on that call, the disgraced ex-president continues to perpetuate and spread the lie, the lie that has undermined trust and faith in our elections, in american democracy, the lie that his own sporters have bought into hook, line and sinker, some of them the cost to freedom, liberty, the lie that fueled supporters into committing a deadly coup against the united states government. the lie for which dozens of trump's allies have been indicted across severity states. more than half republican voters believe the lie, the like that trump couldn't even keep up in a taped interview. now we know, the cult leader doesn't even believe the like. that's slipping where we start the hour, author of the new book we showcased it here yesterday. he's back. ramin satoodah is back with us. as a show, we sought to really understand how the lie about trump's defeat in 2020 has undermined voting rights, almost 400 voter suppression bills have been passed in 48 states in this country predicated on a lie. the january 6th insurrection happens. mike pence doesn't endorse donald trump. that's the first time that's happened in our country's history. it's a precious pieces of report ing tell me what that moment was like. >> we were sitting at the same table, all of 2021. he was very comfortable, because we were watching clips of "the apprentice." i think he was remembering his life as entertainer, very amused, excited to see himself in the boardroom. this is all performance art for donald trump. my book tries to get into the psychest of who donald trump is, what his motivations are, what he's doing as a, quote politician, because i make the argument in the book he's really not a politician. the people he spoke with says he played an act, and played a role as president of the united states. he also played a role in this lie that he perpetuates. he's acting the part of an aggrieved politician who claimants that the election was stolen from him, because he knows that's something his bails loves. we, like the character in "alice in wonderland" are going through the looking glass, where he's distorting the truth and confusing the american public. >> ramin, did you follow the january 6th public hearings closely at all? >> i did, yes. >> i ask that, because this is part of a pattern, and what's so unique is everybody else was a witness. cassidy hutchinson testifies. trump is watching television, and mutters, i can't believe i lost to this guy. you have it on tape. i'm going to read to our audience trump's response to this part of the book and the revelation that we were going to play the tape. this is his campaign spokesperson -- after recognizing the important of "the apprentice" and trump's remarkable role and forever changing the landscape of entertainment, this writer has chosen-to-to rot his brain like so many other loser whose entire existence revolves around trump. what is notable in there is not the dog that doesn't bark. no denial that trump knows he lost. >> it's also part of the performance art. that's what you would expect from a reality star, who makes up names, creates false narratives. what was interesting about this moment, the story of why he and geraldo had a falling out traces back to the fact that geraldo went on twitter, named that at the time, skate that trump would accept the -- and geraldo says that trump said a version of that, and then changed his mind and decided this election, he was going to claim the election was stolen, and he was going to perpetuate that lie. so, that's the reason why he stopped talking to geraldo, but it all goes back to he's playing a part, creating this false narrative, and millions of people believe him. >> think you have a frame that's instructive for anyone trying to cover trump in this moment, right? the other mask you take off is the idea that he ever saw himself as a leader of anything. i want to play another part of the tape that you have given to us, talking about dens rodman's acumen to dealy kim jong-un. >> dennis was a pretty cool cat. he dated madonna when she was the number one person. he's got to have something going. >> i think he showed up to king jong-un. i can get these guys out central casting, they couldn't do anything with kim jong-un. a guy like dennis could. i thought about it a couple times before i got to know him, but dennis would have done a better job than your traditional people, your traditional ivy league people that always do that stuff, and they have no personality. kim jong-un liked him. he coached the basketball team. >> right. >> yeah, he said, i liked dennis. >> yeah, i asked him. he liked him. by the way, dennis liked him, too. i mean, i don't even know if the lookingglass does it. this is someone who murders his own people, i mean, this is one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world, represents a growing threat to this country with a in alliance with putin. trump is so cavalier about it. he thinking dennis is better than anyone who studies north korea's nuclear capabilities, or understands the geopolitical consequences of this pact. >> to me it traces back to trump saying that dennis rodman dated madonna, quote, he's a cool cat. that's the headspace he's in. wanting to be in the proximity of fame. see fame as a currency. the ultimate currency, and having no qualifications in terms of leadership. when he said dennis rod ma'am is better that these guys in central casting, and dennis who was twice on "the apprentice." was known for very messy antics, somehow had a better handle on global diplomacy and dealing with kim jong-un than people in our government, who studied what we need to do in terms of our government, in terms of making sure that we are handling this in a professional, correct way. it was very jars. >> he is conducting himself in the white house like a celebrity who is pretending to be someone else. >> i've got a question for you. you had extraordinary access to trump. if i'm wrong, i hope someone will call and tell me directly. you're the only person i know of who had access to six taped interviews with donald trump after he lost the 2020 election. it sounds like he was forthcoming. it sounds like he led you lead the conversations if i have any of that wrong, tell me. >> he did. we spent a lot of time together. >> what do you make that you're writing about the thing that had he's more proud of. >> that's what was strange. we started in may 2021, and most people thought that donald trump would decide to run for president and become the nominee against after the insurrection, and he was very deflated. it was very easy to access him. i went to trump tower. there was no one around. no one around, he was sitting alone in his office. he didn't seem to have any people. he seed resentful, very lonely, very sad. he wanted to devote a significant amount of time talking to me. in a lot of the tapes -- because i went back and listens to a lot of the tapes. he talked about how much he enjoyed being involved with "the apprentice." he wanted to talk about this. he wasn't interested in commander in chief. he's interested in reality tv. our favorite friends, david jolley, also joining us is director of the public policy at hunter college, basil smikle. david, i didn't dare to hope there would be an aha moment in how i could cover trump, but i feel like ramin's reporting offers the aha moment. he tells ramin after i lost, geraldo called me. it's a tragedy that to trump, his sporters are dupes, but it's remarkable reporting. >> it is. what i'm taken by ramin's reporting, we see how fragile and unqualified trump is to be president of the united states, someone with that eggshell personality and ego, and also somebody who is so superficial. you question whether they can command the presidency and oval office. part of it is just personality of donald trump. admittedly, or parent narcissistic personality, but other issues are frontal lob questions. true competency, ability to command the presidency and lead the nation. it's one thing to see him as a reality start, but a reality start so consumed by dennis rodman, madonna and the apprentice, is there a bigger question there. and so forth. the personality i think we know, the fragility we know, we have seen it, the arrogance we know, but on the competencies piece, the ability to lead the nation remained to the extent you could, perhaps provide color to that, i think would be fascinating. >> i think the answer to that is no, he's not able to lead the nation. we saw that last time. we'll see it again. he also can't speak to what he accomplished, right? he told me i was vaccinated because of him and because of what he did. he said he wished that, you know, neverland to fauci, was very inconsistent on covid, very resentful that people blamed him for covid, but was celebrating that covid rates spiked in india, which he thought made him look better. and singing at the emmys with the actress, which he tweeted after passing a farm bill, but could note tell mu the specifics. he did not seem interested in the farm bill. he did not seem interested in his legislation, and we will have to deal with the consequences if donald trump is elected again. he's not interested in governing or capable of governing. >> ramin, did he change from the first to the second or second to the third or the first through the sixth sessions? >> he changed the most dramatically, yes, between the beginning conversations, then there was a break, i went back and interviewed him in person at mar-a-lago, on the day his sister died. what was so jarring giving the legal issues he was facing, and what was happening with the media circus that had resumed, how much more energized he was by the spotlight, how excited he was about people talking to him, how driven he was. this is a president of the united states dealing with civil fraud in new york city, and his son was testifying, he sister had died that day, and all of it seemed to be part of a reality show. he referred to his runs as 1, 2 and 3 as if they were seasons of "the apprentice." he didn't seem to see the difference. >> it's amazing. basil, there's some sadistic that i think trump's public comment always hinted ought. one wanted it painted black so it would impale and hurt people physically. his policies had sadistic undertones and overtones, but the death of his sister, i guess i'm only laughing because it makes me nervous. it's a revealing portrait. >> there are two mince that ramin touched on that spoke to me. when he talked about it being performance art, i take that, because, if you think about -- i didn't watch "the apprentice." if you transferred that to the political life, you can tell he loves to provide over processes and lord over people who are going to fight each overt for his political adulation. it's like a drug to him. when he talks about, you know, ratings and what that does for his ego, just think about the impact that then has on the country. it is not about policy, it is this really dark place that he comes from where it really is all about how much people sort of glom on to him, regardless of the policy impact that it may have. you know, when ramin also talked about the appreciation that he has for celebrities, it's, you know, it's the fame is a drug for him. i think about not just dennis rodman, because i had forgotten about that, but you think about the dennis rodmans of the world and all the celebrities he surround himself with, because he thinking that's the only way to get attention from black people, which has always been very insulting to me and very pernicious, particularly from a policy point of view. also, i very quickly remember randall pinkett who won that season of "the apprentice" and was asked by donald trump to share that victory, and it always suggested to me that he cannot fathom, cannot stomach a person of color, particularly african man of substance, actually standing on his own, that it actually needs to be shared and somehow disqualified, because it's not on brand for him. you put all of this together, it does seem that there's so much about what he does that just goes into that adulation piece, and it's never about policy. one should wonder out 4r0ud, where he his taking this country? i want to can ramin that question. i'm going to call a audible and ask you to stick around through a quick break. we'll continue this conversation on the other side. also, ahead for us, one week under the first presidential debate of the general election. the disgraced ex-president and his alies have set a low bar for joe biden to clear, even as he's making up excuseses as to why the president could actually out-duel him. we can't tell. bombshell new reporting out this afternoon as well in "new york times" about the judge overseeing trump's criminal classified documents case. elien cannon rejected suggestions and that she walk away and step aside from the case. she chose to keep the case in which donald trump, who appointed her, is also the criminal defendant. we'll bring you that story and how it's playing out in the hour. don't go anywhere. playing out hour don't go anywhere. norman, bad news... i never graduated from med school. what? -but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. i gotta get this deal... i know... faster wifi and savings? ...i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? we're back with ramin, david and basil. ramin, it strikes me that you were in mar-a-lago, which is a crime scene. that's where he took the classified documents he stole. you're talking about two of his favors, kim jong-un and dennis rodman. my brain, my former white house staffer goes to the national security risks that's donald trump. can you just describe where his office was secured, whether people were coming -- just take me inside how free wheeling it was. >> when i talked to him at mar-a-lago, it was in november. he didn't take me to his office. i didn't get to see what we all saw on social media. we sat in a public space. it was quiet. it was deserted. he was preparing to do another tv interview that day, and he seemed to be kind of in hiding, right? there was stuff happens with the new york civil trial. don junior was testifying that day. he actually called eric on the phone, asked me to turn my tape recorder off. he was trying to talk to eric, staged that the family was unified, and told me he won the trial. even in that moment, he was creating an alternate reality, trying to pretend something was happening that actually wasn't happening. >> ramin, what is your sense of how he's viewing this run? what is your sense -- i know you were talking to him about "the apprentice" and these things give us incredible vision into his state of mind, or he competence, but what did you glean about this run? >> it's very simple. he's a reality star, trained to look at nielsen ratings, and always driven by that. nbc executives told me he would get the ratings, and send them to other executives, with his signature, and champion the ratition. le poll numbers are a sign of approval, and the reason he's running for president is he 'very excited and happy that he has high poll numbers. that's what drives him. it's not the policy, the job or the office, or the jobs he'll do. he's very reinvigorated by that. >> i mean, david, it just brings back to mind kevin mccarthy's resuscitation of him. we could have been done from him in politics. he could have found another way to geez his gears. mccarthy made it, being the leader of the republican party, the thing that replaced the ratings. >> i was discussing with ramin in a previous conversation that he alluded to the fact this we had just built him an additional apprentice set, he may not have ever run for the white house. what is striking is the contrast we always come back to between a donald trump and a joe biden. we have to look at it this way. what donald trump ramin has exposed a fragile, unstable man, who convinced the people to make him president of united states. he is that celebrity, that reality tv start. what we have in joe biden is a sober president, capable of leading this neighbors -- nation for the next four years. not just here in the united states defending freedom, but also leading the u.s. across the world stage, particularly in defense the freedom that's been embraced and led by the west for generation. that contrast, i mean, it is so important that we expose what ramin is reporting. it speaks to the weakness of the criminal donald trump who he is, making himself out to be somebody else. he's running against a sober, successful president, incumbent president in joe biden, who deserves another four years, that package together is so critically important. >> basil, this is more about us. ramin's tape is an exclamation point that a lot of people who have covered him, the obsession with john bolton's moustache, obsession with how women and their appearance. saying, you got to be a pretty cool cat to get madonna when she was. it's celebrity plus virility that makes him, i don't know what. now it's about us. we have all of the information in front of us. >> yeah, that's true, because a lot of what donald trump does, he's putting together another show. that show happens to run the country if he were to be elected. that is the cautionary note. i just want to add this other point, two, because it's another cautionary note. as we talk about reality shows, there's a reason they're still on, you know? in some ways, when some people watch a reality show, they did say i'm glad i'm not like them. that givers them a sense of comfort. in some instances you have people who watch the shows that say i want to be more like them. so when you put those two things together, it's almost like they shows can help build value in some of the folks that watch it. that's the scary part about what donald trump does. somehow he has managed to find ways to give some of his supporters, his followers, that sort of sense of empowerment for them, and create that conduit. that's what's scary. he personally can sort of turn it on a dime and get them to do things like january 6th, right? that's really the desiry part here, that -- which i think it's important to democrats when we talk about the coming debate. it's not about the policy. it's about getting into that emotional content that's so important for donald trump supporters, but it's going to be important for democrats and independents so take, what do you feel good about? feel good about the fact that this immigration policy keeps families together. you have to humanize it, and add that emotional content that's so critical. >> we need to continue this conversation. we're one week from the first debate. joe biden needs to make people feel what you're talking about. to be continued on that fun. ramin setoodeh, thank you for coming back and bringing tapes. you'll be back in a couple hours with my friend joy reid with more new never before heard audio, chug trump boasting about a big start he says voted for him. the only problem is the star had died years before the election. you're going to share that with joy and her viewing. thank you for joining us. i'm grateful for all of you. thank you, nicolle. when we come back, brand-new reportings in "new york times" about the disgraced ex-president's classified case. "new york times" is reporting that two federal judges in south florida urged aileen cannon to take the trump case, and tomorrow she's hearing a motion that virtually all judges could have tossed out before. don't go anywhere. could have tossed out before don't go anywhere. ♪♪ innovation in health care means nothing if no one can afford it. ♪♪ at evernorth, we're helping to unlock barriers. ♪♪ using our 35 plus years of pharmacy benefits management experience to save businesses billions while boosting medication adherence. helping plan sponsors and their members be at their best. that's wonder made possible. evernorth health services. this is remington. ...he's a member of the family, for sure. we always fed them kibble— it just seemed like the thing to do. but ...he was getting picky we heard about the farmer's dog... and it was a complete transformation. his coat was so soft, he had amazing energy. he was a completely different dog. it's a no-brainer that (remi) should have the most nutritious and delicious food possible. i'm investing in my dog's health and happiness. ♪we can secure our world.♪ ♪watch out for offers too good to be true.♪ that's phishing! ♪someone's trying to take advantage of you.♪ learn more at cisa.gov/secureourworld ♪that's how we can secure our world!♪ ♪we can secure our world.♪ ♪don't just use a password alone.♪ ♪mfa sends a call, a text or a code to your phone.♪ learn more at cisa.gov/secureourworld ♪that's how we can secure our world!♪ since the nanosecond that the judge was asigned to oversee the documents case, questions have swirled. now there's brand-new reporting in numbs information, even her own colleagues didn't think so. according to "new york times," just after she drew the assignment, quote, two more experienced includings on the federal bench in florida urged her to pass it up but the times reported that the judge wanted to keep the case and refused the judges' entreaties, and she went on to make a number of decisions that has delayed the case. she'll have a hearing on motions that most judges would have rejetted from the outset. in another bizarre twist, she's agreed to hear arguments from outside parties on this issue? it's part of a logjam of legal issues that she's allowed to pile up, but could also be exactly what smith neither to move forward. "the daily beast" records, she may have the ammunition he sneeze to recuse the judge from the case. mary, it looks wrong from the out, often end up feeling wrong from the inside. that's what "new york times" reporting today seemed to prove to me. what's your take? >> i have said publicly a few previous times if judge cannon were in a district with more judges around her -- she's the only judge in her courthouse, probably a more senior judge, a mentor, may have pulled her aside early on, helped to guide her if she was going to keep the case, help to guide her, on how to handle a high-profile case, and how to handle cepa hearings so today not only did senior judges pull her aside, but that have that advice is maybe you shouldn't take this case at all. it's extraordinary to me this is being revealed, and not the thing that judges usually talk about, but it is common for more senior judges to reach out and try to help on how to manage a case like this, or even simpler cases. i'm not surprised to learn it happens. it makes it more dramatic here is the reporting is not they tried to advice her on how to manage the case, but advised her to not take it and she has made quite clear refused that. she's trying to be extra-cautious, this certainly, if this reporting is true, indicates that she really wanted to stay on that case, which i think adds to the -- you know, adds to the arguments she's got a bias here. >> i've never sought -- i believe she's displayed her bias and incompetence. lest anyone think this is a partisan issue, here's who told her to step away -- the chief judge and appointee of former president george w. bush is said to have made a more pointed argument. it would be bat optics for her to oversee the trial because of what happened during the investigation. that was, of course, that after the search, the court-approved search, he bard investigators from gaining access to the evidence. the case went up to brooklyn, then overturned by the extremely conservative circuit. she has let her bias flag fly the whole time at a moment when there's a historic lack of trust in the court, at the supreme court level and beyond, it seems like an extraordinary, extraordinary breach of trust for her to have kept this case. >> what's been interesting watching this is, for somebody who wanted this case so badly, she has clearly been dragging it out. i think everyone can agree this is moving slowly, so then you question why. a number of people have suggested, she's a baby judge, maybe she doesn't know better, but you look at what's happening tomorrow, this argument about whether or not jack smith is, you know, had the authority to be appointed by the attorney general, like, there's supreme court precedence saying there's clearly authority to have appointed a special counsel. there's a supreme court case on it, brett kavanaugh has written about the fact this is a practice dating back to 140 years, and yet she has a hearing on this. she's letting outside parties talk about it. she has a full schedule. every baby judge knows a district court judge has to follow what the supreme court said, right? this is not ignorance. at this point she's intentionally dragging this out. then the question becomes why? the reason the answer is so obvious. it helps donald trump. each one of her rulings, every time she's punted some question down the road that she could have dealt with sooner, each time it's to benefit donald trump. when each and every time it benefits him, the bias is quite clear. >> yeah. i guess that's it, right? if there was a fact pattern that deviated from what you just articulated. that would be a different thing for us to rumble with. i have to sneak in a short break. no one is going anywhere. we're be right back. is going ae we're be right back. t-mobile “savings”, take one. guys, focus. here's the line... “at t-mobile, you get tons of benefits, and you can still save versus the other guys.” focus! hello t-mobile... hold on... you might want to just... ok stop! just say it like this, “at t-mobile, you can save on every plan, and you get great benefits with magenta status”. magenta status... yuh! i'll show you my magenta status. ok, i'll just do it. check out the t-mobile savings calculator to see how much you can save. and right now, we'll even pay off your phone when you switch! ♪ doo-doo-doo-doo-doo... ♪ millions of children are fighting to survive due to inequality, conflict, poverty and the climate crisis. save the children® is working alongside communities to provide a better life for children. and there's a way you can help. please call or go online to give just $10 a month. only $0.33 a day. we urgently need 1000 new monthly donors in the next 30 days to help the children we support around the world. you can help provide food, medicine, care and protection, plus so much more that a child needs by calling right now and giving just $10 a month. all we need are 1000 monthly donors in the next 30 days. please call or go online now with your monthly gift of just $10. thanks to generous government grants, every dollar you give can have up to ten times the impact. and when you call with your credit card, we will send you this save the children® tote bag as a thank you for your support. your small monthly donation of just $10 could be the reason a child in crisis survives. please call or go online to hungerstopsnow.org to help save lives today. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire we're back with mary and christie. what are jack smith's options. >> it depends on what happens over the next three days. a judge will have a full-day hear on just one -- one part of the many motions to dismiss, and that's whether he was appointed correctly under the appointment clause on monday morning, she'll hear whether he was properly paid until the constitution. if decides to dismiss the case, that's an appealable order by jack smith. she's sort of made preliminary rulings, non-final rulings that prohibited -- prevented him from taking an appeal. she has set ted, for example, that related to moment to dismiss i'm denying this, but without perjure dis, putting the project of the jury already being sworn in and jeopardy attaching before shove might make a decision. she's been -- however, on month afternoon, she will also be hearing jack smith 'motions to modify them to that put law enforcement in imminent dangers. that's also an immediately appealability order. so we have two possibles here. and for the american people, hard line trump-loving conservatives described this as an open and shut criminal liability for donald trump. >> it's not a clear path, and what do you make of the fact that trump will stand before voters before he stands in front of his peers. >> it's shameful, as mary said, even if she -- at some point, you know, the rulings that are incredible, yes, may lead to jack smith to move for her recusal, but by that point, the damage has been done. the american people were not able to see and hear from them, and understand just how strong a case jack smith put toes. so, even if she ends up being recused, she has done what she set out to do, which is to delay this, and make sure the american people did not get this information before they voted. >> mary mcchord and christy greenberg, we thank you so much. if you have more questions about the story we cover here, our very own jordan reuben answers them for our newsletter. scan the qr code up on your screen right now. another break for us. we'll be right back. another break for us we'll be right back. again, but the relief is temporary. xiidra can provide lasting relief. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if you're allergic to xiidra. common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort or blurred vision when applied to the eye, and unusual taste sensation. doctor: why wait? 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"the beat" with ari melber starts now. his, ari. >> his, nicolle. thanks so much. welcome to "the beat." tonight we begin here, the choice that people are facing in this election is not just democracy versus that admitted autocrat from january 6th, though that's important, and the biden campaign is certainty lean you into that, nor the choice about secure the bo