Transcripts For MSNBCW Ayman 20240610

also, why are migrant families still being separated at the u.s. border and being left in limbo? i am ayman mohyeldin. let's do it. we begin with an important seismic shakeup in the israeli government. benny gantz, one of the three core members of israel's work cabinet and benjamin netanyahu's top political rival has resigned. in a press conference today he said quote, netanyahu prevents us from moving forward to real victory, and accused his far right coalition of prioritizing political convictions of her work strategy. last month gantz made a public ultimatum, resent a plan for the day after the war in gaza by june 8th or else. it was one of the most visible signs of division within the emergency wartime government. a team of political rivals who had until recently projected unity, but netanyahu has not produced a plan for gaza's future beyond rejecting a two state solution and insisting on israel's long-term security oversight over gaza and the west bank so gantz followed through on his trip to step down, delayed by one day due to the brutal israeli attack to rescue hostages in gaza. today, netanyahu for a second time publicly urged gantz to stay, posting on xcode, israel is in existential war on several fronts. this is not the time to abandon the campaign. with the resignation, israel no longer has a centrist in the work cabinet. it will not immediately sink netanyahu's government but it does mean he now needs the far right members of his coalition now more than ever to stay in power. the national security minister, highly controversial figure, one of israel's most radical nationalists and extremist is demanding a seat in the work cabinet saying he wants the power of his party to be given expression as it has not been until now. gantz was asked today whether his resignation leads the israeli government without any adults in the room. here is what he said. >> i was privileged to bring to the cabinet room all the experience we have. i know other people are staying . they know what should be done. hopefully they will stick to what should be done and then it will be okay. >> this is the biggest shakeup to israel's leadership till -- since october 7th and it comes at a critical moment in the war, comprehensive cease-fire and hostage deal is on the table right now. the world is waiting for a response from hamas but it is not clear if israel will accept terms outlined by biden. there are gaps between the proposal biden described in one's that have been rejected. just weeks from now netanyahu will make his case for what he describes as israel's just word when it comes to speak before the u.s. congress but he must ask, will gantz' s departure result in fundamental change for the war in gaza? after all, the problem does not lie singularly with netanyahu but to israel's ideological approach to the palestinian issue broadly speaking. opposition to the palestinian neighborhood is deeply embedded in israeli society. joining me now is the author of the book "the end of ambition." ambassador, i will start with you and get your take on this resignation. does this change anything about how israel conducts this war in gaza or talks for a cease-fire and hostage deal? >> hi and good evening. look, it looks like a drama. it looks like a political earthquake. it is not but it does have the potential to evolve into something very dramatic if mr. gantz's resignation, which according to most of his critics, will was belated by at least five or six months. to a large extent, his influence and decision-making in the cabinet was marginal. his ability to affect change in both the prosecution of the war and in developing and crafting a strategy for postwar gaza was marginal. so much so that he essentially became an enabler. and i think, if you read stephen hook's article on foreign-policy from yesterday, that even the americans got him wrong in terms of the thinking. he is so centrist, even left of center in terms of policy, he's a decent man. there is no malice there. he meant well when he joined the government. it was a time of emergency, but effectively, he enabled netanyahu. he is complicit and an accomplice to every mistake, every strategic flawed assumption this government made. in terms of how this will affect the war, it does not change the fundamental elements, the fundamental parameters of what needs to be done. israel still faces a binary choice. accept the plan or don't accept the plan. it sounds bizarre if you read the headline that he rejects israel's plan. if you read the planus like it's 1994. in that respect, nothing changes as a result of his departure. >> there was an interesting element in his press conference, a fact that came out that he's calling for new elections in israel this fall but that was somewhat echoed by chuck schumer here a couple weeks ago, senate leader chuck schumer, the highest-ranking semiofficial in american history demanding netanyahu step aside and calling for early elections, as well. first of all, do you see that happening, and what are the chances that the next reiteration of the israeli government does not move further to the right if you do bring in somebody or give more pressure from the outside. >> there is pressure coming from the outside and from within but netanyahu, even with gantz's decision to leave the government has a solid 64 seat majority so he can stick it out as long as he has the support of the radical right. this is likely to move further to the right. benny gantz had played essentially a marginal role, but now that you have others demanding a seat in the work cabinet that affects it in different ways. it strikes me that if gantz was concerned about the work cabinet it would strike me that he would want to remain in the work cabinet rather than take himself out. if you think they want to resettle the gaza strip, that is an ultimate disaster so it may be that gantz thought he could save himself the fight for another day and improve his political chances but it leads to assault optical -- a suboptimal outcome for everybody else. >> there on the cusp of waking up to an israeli government that is more extreme and potentially calling for the full reoccupation of gaza and the displacement perhaps of the palestinians if you do bring in people or give people like itamar ben-gvir even more conduct over the war in the policy. >> i was perhaps the least optimistic person in washington when it came to a cease-fire anyway. now there is less optimism. there is no basis for an agreement at this point. it seems after all of this terrible bloodshed that the conflict is not yet right for resolution in the secretary of state is going to find the same problems he found on his previous seven trips. >> ambassador, your thoughts on what america needs to do now? according to the former army officer who resigned, he said america does have a lot of influence over what happens. what do you think america should do now as it sees this israeli government consistently moved to the extreme right with no fundamental change in policy vis-@-vis the palestinians? >> and president biden's -- to president biden's credit, he warmed mr. netanyahu when the government was formed, this is an extremist government and then when mr. netanyahu instigated a constitutional coup in january of 2023 it was followed by biden refraining from inviting him to the washington white house for nine full months and then the war broke out so yes, the u.s. has all kinds of leverage that it could use. it shows until now not to use it and i heard your interview with that major, and you made actually -- you submitted two premises and you are right on both. u.s. both has lovers and chooses not to use them and to a large extent, it lost a lot of its levers because mr. netanyahu has been intransigent and defiant and is actively seeking confrontation with biden. his plan right now is to try and stall and waste time and wait until america is sucked into its election cycle full force around september, then he hopes that mr. trump will be elected. there's no question and there's no doubt about that. what the u.s. needs to do now is one of two things. it needs to do its basic calculus of how much our american interests being threatened here, and that particularly pertains to a possible escalation in lebanon and indirectly or even directly in iran, or pullout, meaning you know, say to mr. netanyahu, do whatever you want but leave us out, which is obviously not a reasonable and realistic option but what the u.s. can do -- i know we don't have time but with the u.s. can do and has not done until now, is for president biden, not anyone else, not blinken or stolen, but for the president himself to stand up and make a speech differentiating, drawing a clear distinction between israel and mr. netanyahu and talking to israelis and calling netanyahu's bluff if he believes it is indeed a bluff. i don't know. >> we will have to wait and see if the president is watching this. i know it is very late in israel. thank you so much for staying up for us into the middle of the night. >> what else would i do it 3:00 a.m. but talk to you? >> we greatly appreciate it. stephen cook, great to talk to you, as well. next up, why a man dressed as an exterminator started a hateful conspiracy theory that is spreading like wildfire ahead of november's election. then later caitlin clark left off of team usa. was she snubbed? team usa. was she snubbed? hi honey. ahhh...ooh. look, no line at the hot dog stand. yes! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty.♪ i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission ill tell 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in san diego that serves as a shelter for migrant families in an attempt to gain access. he was turned away. three days later, menacing calls begin pouring into staff at the catholic charities, the organization running the shelter. one voicemail left for the chief executive called him quote,'s, not really christian. another woman in a message to a different staff member iqs the nonprofit of flying immigrants all over the country and profiting from an illegal operation. that false, baseless claim can be traced back to james o'keefe, the guy disguised as an exterminator. turns out o'keefe had made posts on x pushy and unfounded conspiracy theory that the center was illegally trafficking immigrants. online threats turned into threats in real life and o'keefe supporters started showing up at other conflict charities and sites. private armed guards were posted outside facilities across the city after people apparently prompted by o'keefe's post came searching for quote, smuggled children. volunteers were sent home. employees who continue to work were told to keep a low profile. the catholic charities found the said quote, we have never seen this level of harassment. this is just one story that disinformation campaign and conspiracy theory as part of a far larger story about intensifying hostility and threats across the country. this is one of the findings in a new report by the southern poverty law center which found 595 active hate groups and 835 antigovernment groups across the united states last year, and between 2022 and 2023, the number of white nationalist groups grew by more than 50% from 109 to a historic high of 165 and it is no coincidence that we are seeing all of this happen right now. quote, extremist and those opposing inclusive democracy have used the past year to legitimize insurrection, paint hate as virtuous and transform false conspiracy theories into truth all in preparation for one of the most significant elections in u.s. history. joining me now to discuss this is pizza me, associate professor at chapman university and co- author of "out of hiding." it's great to have you on the program. let me start with your response to this idea that 2023 became clear that two years since the january 6th insurrection was a time of preparation for the hard right and effectively we are going to see all of this manifest within the next several months as we head into this critical election. >> first, thanks for having me on. i think it is right on target. what we saw after january 6, 2021, was a period in time where , you know, extremists went into a short period of trying to regroup. obviously arrests and prosecutions had some substantial impacts on that world, but arrests and prosecutions are enough and when you're not dealing with the root causes of a problem these groups are able to essentially regroup and then re- emerge even stronger, and i think that is what we are seeing, exactly what the southern poverty law center is pointing to. >> how does misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories play into the activity and rise of hate groups right now, thinking about the harassment we saw play out at a migrant shelter in san diego, what lead people to the january 6th insurrection? how is it these baseless theories are resonating so much with people on the far right driving them to make these online and real- life threats, even things like pizza-gate that we saw several years ago. >> in many ways, conspiracy theories are defining features of extremist hate groups and one of the things they do that is so important for them is that they offer a bridge of sorts and civil conspiracy theories can reach a much wider audience than those directly involved in extremist hate groups and we saw that on january 6th in terms of the attack on the u.s. capital. we had lots of different folks who ended up showing up by the thousands at the capital that day. you had the problem is, the three presenters, oath keepers, , neo-confederates and lots of folks who are not necessarily affiliated with any groups. one of the things they all had in common is they believed in the conspiracy theory about the stolen election of these kinds of ideas really provide people a special sense that they are aware of things that the average person is not aware of. it provides them with this special knowledge, secretive knowledge, special insight and it really goes along with the idea that extremist groups offer to their adherents, which is that you are part of the special population, special culture, special country, special race, special religion that is different and quite frankly, is superior to other groups. >> when you look at this record number of anti-lgbtq and white nationalist groups in 2023 numbering 86 and 165 respectively according to the splc, why are these groups, in your opinion, growing so significantly? has there m.o. shifted and having this kind of hatred toward the lgbtq community? >> that is one of many hot button issues these groups are good at identifying and then targeting and really spending a lot of time directing disinformation toward propaganda and really trying to highlight the supposed dangers or risks that go along with, from their perspective, these hot button issues. immigration has been one for years, as well, and frankly right now, they have at their fingertips some of the most powerful technology in human history in terms of social media platforms, and the problems, you mention the root problems we are really not addressing -- social media platforms and the lack of regulation around those would certainly be one of them, coupled with national leadership that is helping essentially espouse some of the same ideas using in the case of donald trump, the language of nazi germany. >> do you think we have adequate legal tools to take on these organizations when you think about, as you are just mentioning, the issues of social media, it obviously rubs up against the issue of free speech in this country and that is always the fine point when you're trying to go after these groups, you almost have to wait until the free speech becomes actionable and they go carry out some kind of attack or potential violence, at which point , it violates the law but up until the point of actually doing something about it, it falls somewhat under free speech. do we have the legal tools the way we have designated foreign terrorist organizations to go after isis and what have you, do we have enough adequate resources and tools to go off there mystic terrorist organizations? >> i don't think any statute is the answer per se. i do think essentially, utilizing resources that we have, been more aggressive, understanding that arresting and prosecuting is an important, necessary part of it, but obviously not the only part of it, and then of the civil issues you know, in terms of talking about the law, i do think we need some changes in that realm as it relates to social media platforms and being able to hold the more civilly accountable for the material they are publishing and of course that means congressional changes to section 230, and i do think it is clear that social media platforms are not willing to take the kinds of aggressive action that are necessary to essentially cleanup their platforms. >> all right, it's a pleasure to have you on the program. thank you so much for joining us. i greatly appreciate your insights. next, families are still being separated at the southern border. why? the southern border. why? visionworks. see the difference. 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(mom) my turn. -cologuard®? -cologuard. cologuard! -screen for colon cancer. -at home, like you want. -you the man! cologuard is for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way ♪ everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. this charmin ultra soft smooth tear is soooo soft and soo smooth. charmin ultra soft smooth tear has wavy perforations that tear so much better for a smooth more enjoyable go. charmin, enjoy the go. last october, of peruvian family was taken into border custody in the san diego area. during the process, the parents were separated from their 18- month-old son and released without him. if it were not for several humanitarian organizations that stepped in to help, the family may have never been reunited. they were able to track the boys whereabouts to a detention center hundreds of miles away in texas. according to reporting from prison, legal advocates have reported at least 1000 instances of family separation across san diego county where migrants in custody are released without resources or shelter. at the start of his presidency, joe biden officially rescinded trumps zero-tolerance policy and order the formation of a reunification task force that has reunification 790 children with their parents since march but families are still being separated under a policy of a president who campaigned on this approach. biden signed a policy this week that drastically curtails migrants' humanitarian right to seek asylum. it's great to have both of you with us. under a settlement reached in december with the families who were separated under the trump administration, border officials can still separate families in limited circumstances, such as if an adult poses a danger to a child were to national security. that did not appear to be the case with the family we just mentioned. to what do we owe these types of policies still taking place? i think most people hearing about the snow would still be shocked that this policy is still happening in this country. >> i think part of what we are seeing is a situation where policy does incentivize family separation, and that is true not just on u.s. soil, but at the u.s.-mexico border, as well. when you think about even the new executive order which exempts unaccompanied children, what that means is a family fleeing for their lives faces the impossible choice of either allowing their children to travel unaccompanied across the border so that they can reach safety, or to remain in mexico, where obviously, families have experienced assault and far worse. in terms of the specific case you are describing i think this is where there is still some confusion in how policies are being implemented. we care for unaccompanied children and obviously it is horrific to see that even under this administration, you know, we have echoes of what we saw as a real policy under former president trump, which is essentially government- sanctioned kidnapping. >> this report does cite a difference between family separations under trump versus biden. and from, federal immigration officials separated small children from their parents was under biden, official separate different family formations, namely parents and their adult children. what does this say overall about our immigration system specifically that these policies are continuing under a democratic president? is that just a result of vague policies and a lack of clarity as to how this should be implemented, or is it because there is something different at play here? >> i think what you are seeing is a biden administration this falling into a political trap. we have to be very clear when we are talking about zero- tolerance, when we are going back in history, and that is such a dark chapter in our history, as we had a trump administration that made decisions on cruelty, on the action of dehumanizing others in here we have a biden administration that is falling into a political trap. over the last four years we have seen this administration that has made promises that suddenly is shifting to the right. as you pointed out, i want to remember that the very last week before the 2020 november election, the biden campaign released a video called separated, and in that video just five days before everyone went out to vote, he highlighted donald trump's zero tolerance initiative. he highlighted the cruelty. he highlighted what we are seeing on the screams and here we are just five months before the election and he has been starting to sound and use language that does remind us of donald trump and at the end of the day that is a political trap because the bottom line is you cannot out trump trump when it comes to immigration and the border. what worked in 2020 was in humanity. anything that tries to shift to the right of donald trump is a failed strategy. >> to that point, i do want to turn to biden's new executive order. the seven-day average of border crossings reaches 2500 migrants with some exceptions, they will be banned from claiming asylum, and deported. talk to me about how this is implemented. several department of homeland security officials responsible for carrying out the action speaking on the condition of anonymity saying there is concern that detention facilities and processing centers for migrants can quickly become overcrowded. what are you hearing about this, and why? >> it's such an important question because for organizations like global refuge to work with asylum- seekers, the executive order raises a number of concerns. for one, significant questions about its ultimate legality and enforceability, you know. the trump administration use the same authority to shut down the southern border and that was ultimately blocked by federal courts but it also raises implications for asylum-seeking families were trying to seek protection because of these arbitrary numeric limits and i think the final important point is just understand that we know from trump era policies that were hard-line restrictions, they don't actually deter people from crossing the border, so what we are perplexed by is a policy that is not going to be effective, that is harkening back to the trump administration, and i think is a result of congressional inaction but the administration could put in place a system that respects our border, it also respects our humanitarian and legal obligations. >> back in april, you reported on how migrant women are being targeted by cartels as they wait in limbo by the mexican border. how do you see biden's new order exacerbating this specific issue? >> as all of us know, the desperation does not end there. what we are seeing is simply a more dangerous situation. what this means on the grounds that more families, their lives will be in the hands of the cartels. they will be held hostage. they will be exposed to sexual violence and assault. many families will be sleeping in tent cities. many families will go hungry. many will then perhaps be repatriated to countries that are death sentences but more than anything, many families will be staring into a united states that is telling them that no matter the violence they are facing, no matter how many attempts there are by the cartels to end their lives, in this country, we are trying to make it harder for them to seek asylum. we all know that desperation will only mean that these families will be truly putting her hand lives in the hands of the cartels to find other routes to come to this country. >> a troubling situation for everyone involved. thank you so much to the both of you. greatly appreciated. coming up, far right extremism spreads across israel sanctioned by one of the country's top government officials. country's top government officials. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein! those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon it was one of the most anticipated games of the season, the first game between angel reese and caitlin clark. the most notable moment came in the third quarter when chicago's guard kennedy carter have checked caitlin clark, essentially pushing her to the floor. your average fan might call it a cheap shot. it is also the kind of hard play one occasionally sees in pro sports and regardless, many mostly male commentators were calling on league officials to protect caitlin clark. other reactions are plainly inappropriate. espn host pat mcafee called clark white b-word honorable trying to praise her though he later apologized and the chicago tribune wrote an editorial comparing curtis hip check to assault. the media meltdown is part of what the atlantic dubs the one downside of gender equality in sports. a boom in women's basketball means more commentary from men who don't know what they're talking about. joining me now to discuss this is the author of that piece, jemele hill. it's great to have you on the show. so much to unpack here. let me start with charles barkley and other male commentators who accuse the wnba players of being jealous of clark's popularity. the carter fell seems to have supercharge that view. what do you think that type of criticism gets wrong about how veterans are treating clark? >> one, and thanks for having me on, i think a lot of men who are commenting seemed to at the same time forget about how they competed if they were former players in the way that charles barkley was, or forget about how they commentate and frame a lot of the story lines that happen on the men's side whereas when men challenge each other, when a new ricky comes in and there's some kind of period were of course you're going to have them want to see, is this person really who they say they are it's considered a competitive and natural part of the game but yet with women, they reduce their level of competitiveness to something that is very triggering, particularly when we are talking about 70% black so they go with these covert, petty jealousy, making it sound like we are talking about a real housewives reunion on bravo. that is not what this is. this is competitive fire and naturally, of course, when you are the square, the generational talent that caitlin clark is, there's going to be a learning curve when you come to the next level. the women in the wnba are the best players in the world at the sport. it is a reason why the olympic team has won seven gold medals in a row. it's a reason why they are 70-3 and haven't lost a game since the 90s. where did they think these women are coming from? this league. if they are that good, that would mean naturally for any rookie that is going to be a learning curve where they understand the physicality and the way the game is played. it's very natural and men's sports. the things you can get away with college you can get away with in the pros and yet the men who commentate seem to forget all of this when it comes to caitlin clark. >> you bring up an interesting place. also there has been an obvious racial component to some of these debates. carter and angel reese who were seen cheering after the foul are both black and people are talking about that and explaining that. how does race play into the media's explosive reactions to these story lines? >> this is a complicated question and complicated answer. again, the wnba is 70% black so one of the tropes, and many of the tropes i should say about black women is that their confrontational, aggressive, petty, jealous, all those things. some of those traits are ascribed to women in general when people want to speak negatively about women but i think in this case it particularly sticks because you have that optic of black versus white. but what another white player have done the same thing it would not have been as explosive as it was in because you have the dynamic of her and reese, a black player and white player having a personal rivalry it becomes charged just simply by the optics. i am old enough to remember when larry bird and mackey johnson came over into the pros. a lot of that fueled how people talk about them, how their talents were characterized were based off of rasul perceptions in this country of both of them and i don't know why people would think this would be alive and well in this rivalry but it is and angel reese has borne the brunt of a lot of this because she chose to be confident about the level of play she has and listen, i don't agree that she should've been clapping when kennedy carter took clark down but we also see this within the context of a broader rivalry. again, it's interesting how the same things that are celebrated, marketed and that fans love on one side of the game with a totally different gender they suddenly are clutching their pearls on the other side. >> i grew up a little bit in detroit and this was during the 80s, so i know very well what a violent or test basketball game looks like. i want to ask you about something you brought up quickly. the debate that was sparked this weekend again about caitlin clark being left off the u.s. olympic basketball team. some decide -- described it as a snub. she is still a rookie, though. the u.s. basketball has not included a standout rookie or any rookie's before. what is your reaction and do you agree with calling it a snub? >> i don't think it is a snub and i honestly wasn't surprised. i thought this months ago. i thought she's can have a pretty hard time making the team and that's not about her ability. eventually caitlin clark is going to be on an olympic team. that's almost a guarantee but she went from playing college ball to playing in a professional league within a matter of weeks when they were holding tryouts in their camp. she was not able to play in any of that. she has some international experience but not a lot. she is in a position where it's a little bit tougher because she's a guard, she's a little on the slight side, she is adjusting to the physicality of the wnba. again, this is a very successful team and there are a lot of people who don't get on this team and were not this time around and so i think if you just take the caitlin clark this away from it then people will probably better understand decision. >> and like you said the women's team is the most dominant team in sports. it's a tough team to break into in any level. thank you so much. appreciate having this conversation with you tonight. >> all right, appreciate you. >> that's it for me tonight. thank you for joining us. catch ayman every sunday on msnbc. c. heap stuff is too thin! i told you not to get the other toilet paper. here's charmin ultra strong. ahhh! my bottom's been saved! woooo! with its diamond weave texture, charmin ultra strong cleans better with fewer sheets and less effort. what's everybody waiting for? 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