Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240702

welcome to our continued coverage. the new york criminal trial of former president donald trump. i'm rachel maddow joined by my colleagues. also, lawrence o'donnell is with us pick we are going to be joined by the star witness for the prosecution in this trial, michael cohen. he will speak to us exclusively. his first reaction to this verdict tonight. michael cohen will be joining us in one moment live. 4:20 p.m. p.m. and it is" we, the jury have reached a verdict. 45 minutes later at 5:05 p.m. the jury was back in the courtroom and is seated. the defendant donald trump was seated as well. the judge addressed the four people. and the judge. without telling me the verdict, how's the jury? and yes, they have reached a verdict. take the verdict, please. with the foreperson please rise to the members of the jury agreed upon a verdict? yes. and how say you to the first count of the indictment, charging donald j trump with the crime of falsifying business records in the first degree, guilty or not guilty? jury number one. guilty. and how say you to count two? guilty. and to three? guilty. and how say you to count for? guilty. and so on, and so on. the clerk proceeded the same question, guilty or not guilty for each of the 34 felony counts. each time, the person replied guilty. a unanimous verdict on all 34 felonies. that is how donald trump became the first american president ever convicted of crime. he became the first president ever convicted of a felony. and just seconds later, the first president of two felonies. and he kept breaking his own brand-new old record. for the most crimes any american president has been given. here is the signed verdict sheet filled in by the jury. 34 handwritten the check marks in the guilty column. signed at the bottom by the prosecutor and by the defense attorney and by the floor person. where they are identified only as a number. and he was the district attorney. alvin bragg . and they performed a fundamental civic duty. their service is literally the cornerstone of our judicial system. we should all be thankful for the careful attention that this jury paid to the evidence and the law. and their time and commitment for the last several weeks. 12 everyday jurors about to make a decision based on the evidence and the law and the evidence and the law, alone. the deliberations led them to a unanimous conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. the defendant, donald j trump is guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business records in the first degree. to conceal a scheme to disrupt the 2016 election. >> this is from the new york district attorney alvin bragg. the office server is sized - supersized this. and this is how they are covering this. this is all front-page. this is "the new york times" he is guilty on all counts. and " the washington post ". and this is okay usa today" and trump guilty on all counts. and " the wall street journal" and here is " the tampa bay times at". he becomes the first former u.s. president. and here is the l.a. times. and " political". trump guilty. " the boston globe". the same. and here is his hometown paper, the queens daily eagle. queens man convicted. the cover of the next issue of " the new yorker". the title is a man of conviction. they detail with his little hands and large handcuffs. nicole, you and i were here as the verdicts were handed in by the jury. and the first reaction. i wonder in these few hours since receiving this information. as we see the republican party react unanimously. this is an illegitimate verdict. i wonder if you have a sense of what this night is going to mean for us? >> for me, the trump story has always been about asymmetry. as we came to set when a learn the verdict pick we would have been the same if he was acquitted. right? it would been respected for the judge that we have been articulating for the last several hours. a respect for reference the jury's and the jurors. and i think if there was criticism it could have been the process did not yield the results that was plain to our eyes. they had the paper in the emails and the evidence. but to the republicans and the trump enabler would have celebrated. they are only condemning aiken action because they do not like the result. i think what is important is for us not to look away. and what is broken is one of the two parties does not respect the law. not because they did not like what they did not see. but because they do not like the result. that is a flashing red light. >> chris? >> i keep thinking about the immunity case before the supreme court. and still pending. one of the things that got to me during the oral arguments was really shameful. multiple conservative justices saying oh come on. you can indict a ham sandwich. the rule of law is going to be used as a tool. and here you have a process that was run with incredible integrity. basically i think the liberal democratic order that we are trying to hold on will rise or fall on our ability to a fair and neutral process that we are all looking. >> democracy is a process based. you are not guaranteed a guaranteed outcome. >> that is true of courts and elections. what we are saying in the republican party is rejecting that notion. if you lose the election, it is no longer legitimate. it is rigged and this is a deeply held part of donald trump's personal view of the world. and he said about the emmys. he goes all the way back. and it is authentically held in his own strange way. but now it is metastasized to take over the party. in some way when that is the ethos that we are seeing, you are removing your self from the consensual enterprise that we are engaged in. in liberal, democratic enterprise. >> thinking about our own coverage on msnbc and the people that we have talked to. the legal experts and the pundits pick you can go through with a fine tooth comb. there was not a moment in our coverage. when all of us were covering the daily trial and covering the transcripts and getting reporters updated. i do not think there was a moment when we said something went wrong there. there was something in this trial for something that has been decided that seems very suspect. or that is going to get up yield. it was never a moment like that. that was true when we were to not know what the result was going to be. to have a non-results driven and honest and fair take on what is going on. it means that you believe in the system. and policing the system to make sure it is fair. willing to accept it regardless of the outcome. >> i do not want to overstate the case. there are times when public officials are convicted of a crime. people rush to their defense. when i was in providence, rhode island and chicago and other elected officials will do it. it is the union in the. and if you are a city councilmember and your neighboring city councilmember gets convicted on a crime. you think they got a raw deal. that happens in american politics. but it is down the line complete party line that has been expressed in a post today about this. this is from the moment it is announced. this is an illegitimate process that i find genuinely unnerving. and from normal politics around criminal prosecution. >> i just wanted to say that we heard from alvin bragg. and what we have heard on tables and shows. we are recording and doing what we are doing without fear or favor. and that is what alvin bragg said. it is interesting. that has a redefinition of courage which i think it is interesting pick we had to redefine what courage means. and now the things that we should take for granted in terms of people believing in the rule of law. we had to redefine that. but if you think about what alvin bragg did. he took a case with a team of prosecutors. i have empathy for the lawyers. having been a trial lawyer, to be able to get us across the finish line. it is an incredible amount of time and energy. but without fear or favor approach they took. they did not let themselves be skewed by the following analysis. even if you have all the elements of a crime. even if you have probable cause and be able to meet all of those elements. sometimes you stop yourself as a prosecutor. can you consider what the jury could be on this. do you have enough to have a jury to care? and when we talk about the opening statements. and i sit at this table for so long, people did not take the value of this case. the first indictment. but what do they did it during that prosecution opening is made you care. they may the jury care about this case. maybe they did not care. that was the critical moment. >> on the issue of fear or favor, the fear factor that were involved in this process at every level. obviously, the jurors, the family members, the judge, the judges family members, the prosecutors and the witnesses. they are going to be speaking in a moment with michael cohen was the prosecution's star witness. michael cohen's saga is a shakespearean. part of the fear in terms of him being a witness is having to come to this journey with his former boss and mentor. and by some accounts, the way that he tells it is worshiped for a long time while he worked with him for a decade. the confrontation with the trump supporters and what trump has been willing to bear on his perceived enemies of the world. that is something that michael cohen is contending with and has been contending with. now presumably in a magnitude a different all counts guilty verdict has been pronounced. we will be speaking with michael cohen. but i want to talk to our friend lawrence o'donnell. lawrence, you were in the courtroom for most of the trial including the testimony from michael cohen. and before we speak with michael cohen. is there a key moment from the witness testimony or how this court proceeded that led or did you think that the very end that it could go either way. >> i did think it could go either way. luckily, we now know and say definitively. he was defending a guilty client. defending a guilty client is really hard and a hard thing to do. it is a very hard thing when you are defending a guilty client to get 12 jurors to unanimously agree to find that defendant not guilty. and he asked them to do many times in his closing statements. and many use the phrase reasonable doubt. and you wonder what that phrase means to every jury. every jury it is common for a jury to want to hear that. and they will want that read to them again. but this jury was clearly unified. there could have not been a lot of hard work to get through in the jury room. basically they got this verdict in nine hours of 34 counts. they were being respectful of the size of the indictment. and rachel, as this day has been wearing on. the key moment was a alvin bragg. alone in a room with his own thinking. after all of this had been presented to him. after more than one team of prosecutors looking at this potential defendant. and suggesting ways that this potential defendant could be prosecuted. while some prosecutors in that office were opposing some of the ideas this defendant could be prosecuted. so alvin bragg had a decision to make. was his decision and his decision alone. to make the decision to go forward with this case. as i was sitting and watching this unfold. i could see why alvin bragg made the decision to do this. why would he look at all of this evidence. his conclusion had to be i cannot possibly not bring this case. this evidence cannot emerge later. the world cannot see this evidence later. and asked me why i did not bring this prosecution. at the very same time, especially when michael cohen was testifying. i could see what the new york federal prosecutors did not bring this case. they were worried about how michael cohen would perform as a witness. what alvin bragg had to do when he decided to bring this case. he had to do one simple thing. it is the hardest thing in the world. he had to bring a perfect case. he had to assemble the perfect team. including, by the way the paralegals that were standing up with him tonight at that press conference. it was not lawyers only. he had the paralegals and the assistance of them with him too. they had to have the perfect team. and they had to present a perfect case. there were plenty of moments that we wondered about. did this help the other side but now we know. the prosecution did exactly what they had to do. they presented a perfect case. for a case like this you have to think about it as an airplane engine. and what doubts you might have about an airplane engine. it has to work flawlessly. it is a life and death matter. the prosecution is to build a flawless airplane engine and the defense's job is just to try to convince you somewhere, the engine is leaking a drop of oil. that is all the defense is to do. so it is perfection with a flaw. there could be a loose bolt. perfection has to win. that is what alvin bragg saw on the onset. there was a way to do this case and a way to try it perfectly. and he did not call out on weisenburger. and now we know that he had to know it was the right call before the fact. we all get to sit here knowing that everything was the right call from alvin bragg. and he had to know ahead of time. he could've said you know what. the foreign half hour closing is too much. i need you to cut two hours but he did not do that. he built his team and he trusted his team and he knew his team was capable of doing a perfect job they had to do. in order to get to all counts guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. this is a story in the room was the story of these two kids who grew up in new york. one is probably the most spoiled brat in the history of american spoiled brats. across the aisle is alvin bragg. alvin bragg grew up on a block in harlem that is called strivers row. his mother and father met in a small town in virginia in the eighth grade. they went to separate colleges. sr. went to syracuse and they came to new york and worked as professionals as most of the people live in strivers row do. they all have high temperatures for their kids. and on strivers row the children learned that if you worked really, really hard in school. if you worked really, really hard. you will be able to do work that you can be proud of. so alvin bragg has been aimed at this point. you know, for reasons that we will never make sense in my memoirs. i decided to spend the day at his alma mater, alvin bragg. for the events surrounding graduation week at harvard. when alvin bragg graduated from harvard college, the school newspaper they ran a profile of him. " the harvard crimson" and the title was the anointed one. and the article that gives you what you think is the most hyperbolic title you could imagine for a college senior. it then lays out for you who this kid is who is graduating and on his way to harvard law school. and i finished the article one year ago thinking yes. that is the right title. that is who this guy is. and everybody, this final week at is what people saw here. and that is what people saw. the people of manhattan that elected him. that is what they saw. they saw somebody who was dedicated to doing this job and doing it flawlessly. and so profoundly modestly. in a country in that trump era that needs lessons in modesty. alvin bragg is that lesson. >> you know, lawrence what a great point. in this moment when it is remembered in history. yes. the crimes will be part of the history. the criminals will be part of the history. the people that were brave enough to take this to the criminal justice system. against all the threat in order to do it and against all odds. and the most powerful people in the country and them most powerful people in the country to do it. those are the people a few generations from now. those are the people that are going to have blockbuster holograms made about it. lawrence, thank you. and i know that we will be back with you in one moment. joining us for his first interview since tonight's verdict is the prosecution's primary witness from this case, michael cohen. he is joined with his attorney. we are grateful for both. >> it is good to see you all. >> how are you? >> i guess the word is relieved. this has been six years in the making. remember, the very first time that i met with the district attorney's office. we talked about it when i was on the show. the first time i met with the district attorney's office when i was an inmate in otis phil. they came up to see me on three separate occasions. this is a six year process within an inch accountability to finally be had. >> were you surprised by the verdict? >> no. i was not. i have been so many shows, and i have told you all along. the facts speak for themselves. the documents speak for themselves. i have listed to so many pundits, the various shows including some of the hosts talk about x, y and two. they could not be further from the truth. i would have conversation with my lawyer on a regular basis. i do not understand it how come they do not see the same thing that we are seeing. i understand that it makes great headlines and so on. but the facts are the facts. at the end of the day, the fact is what prevailed here. >> you mentioned the timeframe and what is been for you. before tonight, there was his criminal scheme that has been described. the illegal election, benefits, and payments. it is been described by multiple prosecutors. but there was exactly one person would gotten in trouble for this scheme. >> only one. >> you are not the beneficiary but the only person who had been in trouble for it. and in the national enquirer god immunity. >> trumps attorney general bill barr told to stop the investigation after you were in prison. after you've gotten a sharp end of the stick and gotten trumps name out of it. it has been eight years from these alleged crimes. i just have to ask you. and how you feel about the verdict but that is justice delayed. it is justice delayed, just as tonight. >> clearly not in this case with 34 counts. and one after another after another. of guilty. it is accountability. it is exactly what america right now. we need accountability to be had by all those that break the law. because as we like to continuously state nobody is above the law. and today's verdict demonstrates that. >> how do you think donald trump is feeling today? >> i can only go back to when the judge sentenced me to 36 months. you do not feel good. sentencing is terrible. and of course i took the plea, the 48 hours that was given to me. they were filing the indictment that was going to include my wife. it never feels good. i did what i had to do to protect my family. this is very different. donald did not let it go to protect his family. he took it all the way. and judge juan merchan who is an absolute gentleman to see him on that stand is to see poetry. it is to see a masterful judge who was quick with decision- making. he was absolute judicial perfection. and the jury had tremendous respect for him as it did i which kept me off of my social media. of course my lawyer. and it was really out of respect for judge juan merchan and the process that i did exactly that. and the jury respects juan merchan. i think the antics that went on in the courtroom. it was from donald himself with his leaning back and closing his eyes the total disregard. i did not think he engendered any positive feelings by anyone. >> did you think that he was sleeping or some people said that he was resting his eyes. there was a lot of different interpretations. but your interpretation is that he was being disrespectful? >> yes. i was also not concentrating. i was trying to keep track of the meandering questions. that was very different. from 2016 to 2018, 2020. and trying to keep track of the dates and the events. when you have that type of meandering questioning. it is not an easy process. >> and in preparing for this cross-examination. did you prepare emotionally as well as physically? just watching it in the courtroom and from our reporters and looking at the transcript. it seems like it was a herculean effort to stay calm and what seemed to be designed to provoke you and confuse you. >> a lot of our preparation and certainly focused on the facts. there was so much prior testimony and interviews and statements. so we wanted to be up to speed on that and refreshed. >> that is not an advantage when your client has spoken a lot in public. >> he has. but you know, it was important to emphasize this to michael. he handled himself remarkably well. but i wanted them to understand that his demeanor mattered. the need to maintain the same type of composure on direct and on cross and redirect and recross. and he did that. i saw a connection between him and the jury. they believed him. and they were just with him. so yes. was a lot of emotion involved. to watch the attacks on him as a lawyer. also, 85 times he was called a liar in the summation. he is not a liar. nobody is a liar or a truth teller. he admitted to telling his lies. and the jury believed him and they returned this with a swift verdict. i think all of the preparation was to good use. >> what she is describing is the strategic necessity of you staying cool. how hard was that? >> not hard at all. it was the media that wants to portray me as this bombastic character. >> we have all heard bombastic. >> and also if you heard me a political beat down podcast. it is a persona for it. and i cannot go with intelligence so i will go with bombastic. it is not necessarily -- but i also get hot tempered. yes, you have heard that a couple of times here and there when i was working for mr. trump. but that is not generally my effect. it was really not hard. i will tell you that 51 days of solitary confinement changes anyone and anyone. when you live in your own head which is a dangerous place for anyone. it is very easy to turn around and say i just need to pull back on myself. i need to pull back on getting angry at the nonsense of todd blanche. and it was not as difficult as i thought. staying focused with this questioning was more difficult. the anxiety and dealing with the anxiety on this. it was difficult, as well. >> what type of anxiety? >> i was nervous. i was nervous because so much was riding on these results. i wanted to ensure that my testimony was perfect. i knew there could be no deviation from perfection. and both danya perry and i afterwords we sat and we spoke for a little bit about my testimony. and we could not understand some of the criticisms. and how could you possibly have two conversations in 1:39? especially when one conversation is not a status call. is just an update. i want to let you know that everything is taking care of. that is the conversation that takes place with donald trump. not this long-winded including the tape that i had recorded him and idot as i told you for david packer. that was only just one minute and change. but that was a substantive conversation. amanda what you can do in 1:39. he did a great job of putting the 1:39 out there. and susan is just a phenomenal -- the entire team. the entire prosecution team was incredible. as we would go through some of the documents. she knew at the top of her head most of the numbers and the exhibit numbers. it was a very impressive group of people. >> what did you make of the decision by the defense? and we are speculating that the strategy was driven by trump himself. we are speculating because we do not know. it felt like it. they made a strategic decision to try to make the verdict a referendum on eu. including saying and being admonished for the judge saying it. essentially the last word to the jury do not send anyone to prison on the word of michael cohen. how was that for you? what you make of that decision? >> again, i do not care what todd blanche says about me what i care is my wife, my daughter and my son, my parents and my close friends. that is who i care about and what they say about me. danya perry. i care what she says about me. i do not care what todd blanche says . it means nothing. or even to trump, or any of them is say about me. and i know who i am. and i know what he needed to do. so in this specific case, it was a very foolish strategy. and i said it. and he is not really known as a defense attorney. this is only his second defense trial. not a good strategy. proof positive of that. the 34 count verdict. >> the defense counsel, todd blanche did an interview on another cable network. i will guess which one but every decision in the case in every substantive decision is what he made together with jumbled -- trump. and if you see his fingerprints on those decisions? >> absolutely. it is a donald trump fourth grade playground, bully type of tactic. >> do you have an acronym for todd blanche? >> the stupidest lawyer of all time. sloat. you cannot listen to your client when you're trying to create a defense that is as important as this one is the very first president of the united states, the former president to ever be charged. let alone, convicted on 34 counts. it was definitively, the stupidest lawyer of all time. worse than some of the other ones that he has in his orbit. it just made no sense, at all. any good lawyer, if he would've gotten a hold of danya perry? she would've never listened to his desire for retribution. will or his desire of how he wanted it to commence. >> the access hollywood tape. the defense argued there was no new urgency for trump to kill the stormy daniels story. because the access hollywood tape was no big deal. it did not have a big impact or change anybody's mindset about the relativity or the potential damage that could be done by another scandal. vertically a scandal like this. and why it was puzzling is that we were live . and it seemed like the access hollywood tape was a very big deal. and it would have rashly had a very big impact in the way they were thinking about the potential damage. you are close to donald trump at the time. you were involved to the response. how does that compare with your lived experience? >> completely contrary to the reality. i was in london visiting my daughter who was studying at university for the semester. it was her 21st birthday. not to mention, several days after was my anniversary. we were there celebrating as a family when this thing happened. i spent most of the vacation outside of the restaurants and on the telephone with people trying to do damage control. and that was demonstrated again by the evidence. whether it was text messages or corroborating testimony. that is what i continuously said when i was on any of the ms nbc shows. this is a case that is going to come down to the documentary evidence and the testimony of others. and what ultimately was demonstrated was the fact that all of the testimony by the other witnesses that i had involvement with. it corroborated with what i've been saying for 6 years. and all of the documentary evidence, the emails, text messages, the documents. again, they corroborated what i've been saying for 6 years. >> this case was not downplayed by a lot of people that it became clear that was one of four criminal indictments and four different jurisdictions. this is seen as a lightweight case. there has also been a lot of discussion in the media. is this an election interference case or hush money? do you think this case was important? compared with the classified documents in the january 6. other pending that could also never come to trial. is this substantively important? >> the answer is yes. but i am also in various different shows said why are we looking at these cases like this is the kentucky derby? that we are handicapping the four cases. if, in fact this was a handicap. it would be the fourth most obscene case that donald trump is being cased and charged with. obviously, this case does not hold equal weight to the theft of nuclear sequence - documents. for the january 6 insurrection. or even the attempt to overturn a free and fair election. nevertheless, this is an important and legitimate case. and while i would've liked alvin bragg to have been on one year earlier. it would've been better for me. it is an important case. it is a relevant case. it is an illegal act that anyone of us would've already been prosecuted for. and again a sense nobody is above the law. donald needed to be held accountable just like any of us. just like i was held accountable. the only difference is that i took responsibility. >> and my colleagues i am being very uncool. i'm not letting you speak yet. i just have one more question. but a lot of the reason that this is being greeted with three inch headlines in every country. it is not necessarily because everybody is totally engaged with the substance of the falsifying of the business record. to the commission of another crime. the actual details of this is not what is driving it. driving is that he is the first president to be convicted and what is he going to do. we are worried about what trump might demand or expect supporters to do in response to this. the extralegal protection and violence is very much front of line for the future of our democracy. i would like to hear what you think about that and how you calibrate that and how you have dealt with what i know has been the anxiety around the threat level for you and your family. >> so i know that he is asked a series of the republicans that showed up to court with him. to pass a law whereby he cannot be held legally accountable for any crime. i've never heard anything like this. he has his own set of constitutional rights that none of us are afforded the same. this is going to be a whole new law class for law students. they would have to take another course that danya perry could teach at harvard. will you look to create violence? sure. will it happen? i don't think so. i do not believe that the american people as invested in him as he believes. we have already seen what happens with the oath keepers, the steward rose 18 years. nobody wants to spend 18 years. i spent 13 months. a satellite camp of 51 days in solitary confinement. i assure you. nobody wants that for themselves so nobody is going to go out and do something stupid. especially here in new york. we have the greatest law enforcement in new york. our men and women are the best. but they are also great in all of the other cities and all the other states in our country. and we have the national guard and the military. nobody's going to allow him to create the havoc that he wants everybody to believe that he has the ability to create. >> michael, hello. >> hello, nicole. >> it has been fun to watch this conversation. it has been fun to watch. >> for some of us. >> but i want to ask you about your pain. you were able to talk about it that most humans are not able to talk about it. to bring the jury into your journey of reverence. you describe your time with trump and had some incredible experiences. you were able to be multidimensional in a way that nobody in the press gives you credit for. the entire framework around you is no credibility. and it was literally like a nano second went todd lynch was not bailing. people thought that you shot your credibility. i wonder how you were able to be that vulnerable. and in a criminal trial watched around the world and share. and i know that you see a lot of coverage how did that feel? >> difficult. one of the things during prep sessions with danya perry and her office was to not quibble over an answer. if you did it, own it. it is very difficult, do not get me wrong. nobody wants to acknowledge that they did something wrong or did something bad. but there's no point in quibbling. and as a lawyer, and former lawyer myself. and i have done a handful of trials. especially a lot of depositions. you know how to get the person on the next question and the question after that, and so on. there is no point in quibbling. didn't like -- did i lie? i sure did. i also pled guilty to it. i also served time as part of my sentence for it. so why am i going to quibble about that? there is no reason to do that. it is not easy. that i can tell you. and where this entire narrative, that is the problem also with so much. but he wants to be the prognosticator and they want to be like the great carnival act. they were able to look into the crystal ball and said that michael cohen is going to be x and y and z. and danya perry decided not to do that. just be yourself. connect to people. which anybody that was in the courtroom. when i would speak to the jury, they would sit up and engage. because they knew that the story that i was telling them, the narrative that i was telling them was truthful. and how do they know that? they knew it because they heard it from a handful of witnesses before that documents prove. just like the story with my daughter. wanting to work in the white house. there were 10 days of back-and- forth conversations with my daughter. and i know what i want it is a hybrid. i will explain to you. she was in college at the time in her senior year. and it is going to be really good. it will be good for us as a family. so, things like that destroyed todd blanche's ideas on how to come at me and how to impute my credibility. and it failed. i do not think if you ask todd blanche whether this is the way that they really wanted to run this defense. i can assure you that he would say no. but it was never his call. it was the call of donald trump. and now that he lost we are not going to see much of him anymore. >> do you think that donald trump blew the case of todd blanche? >> yes. >> you have talked a lot on my show when all of these shows about the complaints about a two tiered system of justice by donald trump. and you are the only person that is served time in jail for these events. but you are also returned to jail by the then justice department under donald trump because of writing your book. you have seen the politicalization of the justice system firsthand. what do you make of the people that are calling this a political device of the justice system. that you literally did face a politicized system that jailed you. >> we know that donald j trump is the great deflector. one of the things that he does, is he took the heading of my book " revenge". how we weaponize the department of justice against his is critics. he is using the cover of my book as a way for him to deflect. it is the biden administration. the biden administration is weaponize against me because i'm leading in all the polls. the whole nine yards that he does. that is a donald trump. he is deflecting. because he knows what he did. and just part of the statement from rachel. jeffrey acknowledged that the department of justice, the main justice reached out to the southern district of new york to whitewash donald trump's name from any of the allegations. they wanted to go back in time and undo the sentence that i'd already pled guilty to. in order to whitewash donald trump's name out of it. that is the most dangerous thing that anybody could ever do. especially as a president to weaponize. let me tell you. this is very dangerous for what is potentially coming down the road. if in fact, god forbid that donald would end up back in the white house. he will weaponize it against every single person at this table. he does not care. he is vindictive. he has written about it. if you punch me, i will hit you 10 times harder. if he has the power, again these are his own words. he wants to rewrite the constitution. he wants to strip the legislative branch and the judiciary of the equal powers under the government. confer all powers to the executive branch. what happens to the rest of us? you will end up everybody in guantanamo bay. because they are critical of him. >> let me ask you a detailed question. you talked about the documents. the smoking gun document. the one that has alan weissenbach and the handwriting where you break it down. did you know that document existed? and when did you become reacquainted with its existence? tell me about that document. >> i was asked to bring that document to him so we could presented to mr. trump for repayment. >> it was a bank statement showing the money transfer? >> correct. on the new account that i had opened and the transfer. there were some outstanding funds that was owed. we all know that story. but alan came up with the concept of grossing up to 260. and donald had cut my bonus that year by two thirds. this made absolutely no sense as well. he is now going to the presidency. i've involved since 2011. i laid out money on his behalf for cnbc and all of that. he cut my bonus by two thirds. i never understood why. but for me, it was more of an emotional thing. but i was incredibly angry at this behavior towards me. it made no sense, at all. so after i had come back from the new year's christmas vacation, alan asked me to bring in the documents. and did i know that document still existed? no. and i get reacquainted when i was asked to meet with the district attorney. >> they have it. and you meet them but you do not remember the document. >> i remembered it. >> but it is not as if you saved it. they come to you and say look at what we have. >> in fact, the second document i think it was number 36. 35, 36. but that is a document i'd never seen the guy never knew that document existed. >> he authenticated that because he testified. >> correct. >> in terms of grossing it up for taxes. the way the prosecution explained is that this is another way that this was faking a reimbursement. to make it look like income. they essentially said this is tax fraud. and alan came up with that as a reason to do it. why was he thinking along those lines? >> i don't know. but what we have to understand is that in the office were used to call mr. trump for contract. they did everything together. there was nothing that was a surprise. they would pretend like bad acting. and acting 101 where alan would come in and say donald. we are going to pay michael in 12. that is a great idea. as if he did not already know what was going on. the concept of grossing it up was for me to take his income and i did and i paid my taxes on the 15%. that is how they wanted me to do it. so i said okay. >> lawrence o'donnell is standing by and wanting to ask you a question. >> michael, thank you. >> are you going to go through my entire life history? because i'm a new yorker as well. >> michael, i would say pick up your first day of testimony what i said on the show that night. the michael cohen that i saw in the courtroom that day. everybody knows that guy. every new yorker knows that guy. and there is a version like that we all know. i just want to emphasize this point for the audience. i have a question of what people thought was the most dramatic part of your cross- examination. i guess danya perry that deserves some credit. the no quibbling strategy and you really took to heart. there was no point in quibbling. you are constantly humble and respectful. and friendly to todd blanche. tonight's audience might not get that feeling . but five answers in a row where yes sir. yes sir. no sir. all the way through. and there was a humility in your presentation of that. and i believe it was registering with the journey - jury. i think they also found you credible. and i do want to confirm what you said about what felt like your connection to the jury when you were returning on speaking directly to them. i was taking that in and the attention they were giving to you. the mystery is that okay. are they believing him? and the verdict said they were. but i want to take you to what everybody considered and including me at that moment. the most dramatic moment in your cross-examination. i did not think it was as big as other people thought. because cross-examination is never the end of the story. i was going to wait to see what happened on redirect. it changed a lot to your advantage. but you know what i'm talking about. it was the todd blanche moment. the phone call that you identified it happening at 8:02 p.m. and todd blanche insisted to you based on text messages that were part of the record before that. when you got keith on the phone and you have to speak to donald trump about the stormy daniels payoff. in fact, you were calling him about the phone treatment that you are suffering at the time. surely you spend the entire time speaking about the harassing phone calls. your testimony changed. in the moment you talked about it to donald trump. there were legal analyst on the program is and that was it that was the knockout punch. michael cohen is destroyed. but your credibility was supposed to have been destroyed in one question and answer. i am just wondering for those of us here. what was it like sitting in the witness stand in the witness box when you saw how that was landing. did it feel like it was landing like a knockout punch? or something that you had to somehow repair? >> not even close. when the question about the 1:30 i recall. i stayed emphatic that i spoke to donald trump. in the same way you know certain things that happen in your life. the day that your child was born. the data got hit by a car. you know those dates. they are embedded in your head. i knew based on the fact that i've spoken to donald trump. i was not going to come off of it. todd blanche said it is impossible . because there was a 14-year-old that was calling the office and calling my cell and my office line. and it was just reeking habit -- wreaking havoc. however, what i said is that i spoke to donald trump that night. we were fortunate because we had the weekend in which to look. we found that five minutes earlier, donald trump had gotten off the stage. it makes perfect sense. i did speak to him. i state my ground. i do not know why these people decided that is good for television. that is about it. just because they say it does not make it so or into a reality. it is just the opinion. but the opinion is dedicated on any fact. it is just the opinion. and that is really a shame on the media. for even allowing it to happen. it is not the reality. the reality is that everything i had said on that stand in 21 hours of being there. it was corroborated by documents. was corroborated by others testimony. i do not think that todd blanche landed a single blow which is difficult in cross- examination. >> let me say something for one second. >> i am sure that all those pundits so that was a knockout punch and your credibility will be destroyed will be apologizing. >> just like me apologizing for me being in europe. >> the exchange was met with so much derision and exactly as you said, lawrence. that was a knockout punch. the gotcha moment. but more than anything it proved that michael was telling the truth. there were so many ways that the jury knew that michael was telling the truth. and at that moment, chris you talked about documents that were used to refresh them. that had not seen those text messages. by the way, the words were text messages that he provided voluntarily to the da office. even before he was redirected. he said those things can both be true. they can happen at the same time. it was not something that he rehearsed or was discussed. it was organic. it was natural and it was true. it is easy when you are telling the truth cannot be knocked off your balance. i think that moment, more than anything. corroborated the story. >> do you think that todd blanche was on a curve? i do not know if this was a sort of subconscious feeling. and so he landed this low. but he did make this one point. do you think that todd blanche was graded on a curve by the press? >> i've known todd blanche for 20 years. he was my paralegal. and he was great. >> lawyer world is small. >> is a good lawyer. and he is smart. he is careful. he is thoughtful. so i was surprised the way the conducted the cross examination. and i think that is what happened. brody was scratching their head. where is he going with this? it is all over the place. the timeline is off. the blows are not lending as somebody said. and there was this moment where clearly, it was not like an ambush. but it was a surprise in the sense that he is not seen those messages in eight years. but it was not more than that. i cannot say that he rebounded. >> michael, let me ask you again. this is about what this trial and your law experience. we have seen him have some big falls in life. we have seen him declare bankruptcy. and involved in accumulating scandals of various kinds. but when it came to actually getting knocked flat. it has been twice. one is losing the 2020 election. the way that he responded was grading an alternate universe. count guilty verdicts. >> so now this criminal case -- you're right to point that out in terms of the devastating nature of that blow in that civil case, hundreds of millions of dollars he owes and now this this criminal case in the civil case and in this criminal case he does not have the option to do what he did with losing the 2020 election.. ♪ i'm gonna hold you forever... ♪ ♪ i'll be there... ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪ nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. why choose a sleep number smart bed? 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[ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. didn't happen, and these criminal convictions didn't happen. from your sense how he moves through the world and deals with humiliation and failure, what do you think he has left to do that he can do in response to this that we should be prepared for? >> he's just going to blame everybody other than himself. it's the judge merchan is corrupt. judge engoran is corrupt. michael cohen is a liar, a felon, a rat and everything else that he has been calling me for over six years. he will blame everybody else other than himself. he does not understand the concept of accountability. somewhere along the line i guess his parents didn't teach him that there are consequences for actions. >> on the consequences question, i was in the courtroom one of the days you were testifying and there was this line of people this had come in to support donald trump who were clearly auditioning to be vice president. they want to be what you were at some point in your life, right? a guy that serves donald trump, works for donald trump, yes boss to donald trump and you're up there like this is how it worked out for me and they're sitting there watching you as you're talking about i did solitary. my law license was taken away, all the things i did for this guy and they're sitting there like that's me. you're talking about the 51 days you did in solitary. jeff sessions is no longer with his job of first attorney general. rudy giuliani is going to be disbarred and all these people that were loyal to him, they end up getting run through the machine and ground to dust but not him. what does it take to get through that simple message of self-preservation, not an ethical commitment but just like you are next, dude? do you think about how you could possibly communicate that effectively to the people sitting there auditioning to be a person that answers to donald trump? >> in 2018 you may remember i testified before the house oversight committee live. i turn around and looked at mark meadows and i said, "i know what you're doing. i know the playbook that you're trying to run because i wrote it and look what's happening to me. in a few weeks i'm going to prison. i strongly suggest you think before you keep acting the way that you are," and he didn't listen and now look what happened now to mark meadows, same thing. you have christina bobb, rudy, everybody. anybody that goes into his orbit loses everything. so i would turn around and say to them this isn't the job that you want. just look at what happened to me. look at the arc of my life. i retired. i was 39. i'm not a rags to riches story thanks to donald. i was a riches to rags story thanks to donald. you ask a great question. what's it going to take? 51 days of solitary confinement as well as having the president of the united states weaponize the department of justice by using a willing and complicit attorney general to violate the constitutional rights, to create a counterfeit document, a fraudulent document, demand you sign it and if you don't, think take that fraudulent document, remand you back to prison after putting you in a freezer a few hours and ultimately shipping you back up for more solitary confinement. that's what it's going to take. >> can i ask you one more question, michael? it's not about you specifically. i did listen to your extended conversation with stormy daniels on your podcast. she hasn't done a lot of talking outside of court, but she was treated the same way you were on the stand when she took the stand in this case. you all mentioned the three times donald trump has been knocked down. i would mention a fourth, which was e. jean carroll who got a very large civil verdict against donald trump. so he has not been lucky in his dealings with strong woman who have been willing to fight back. >> i'm a guy. >> i know. i'm going to ask about her just one moment. what did you make of her willingness to step forward and deal with the same thing that you did? as you said, they attempted to humiliate on the stand. they also did that to her. i also want your assessment of her as somebody who interviewed her and saw she went through that even before you hit the stand. the what do you make of her role in this case? >> she's unflappable. it's interesting. people discount her because of her profession and it really bothered me a lot like oh, the porn star this, the porn star that. they were trying to discredit her in the eyes of the jury. in fact, once again i think it was a very poor decision by todd blanche or susan necheles because they couldn't have a guy saying that. i think it was a very poor decision to go after her. people don't know unless you've read her book, she's actually wickedly smart. i think she graduated valedictorian of her high school class. she's much smarter than they are. now whether you like her profession or you don't, i'm not sure why it's anybody's business, but she is not somebody that's easily pushed around. she demonstrated that. she was unflappable. she was rock solid. she was going to speak her truth and she did. >> was there any doubt when you were -- you had a campaign email. you weren't on the campaign, but they were focused trying to win this election. was there any doubt among the people on donald trump's team that he had, in fact, had that sexual encounter because they made that an issue in the case? they tried to deny it. >> yeah. that again was something that i'm certain that donald trump dictated to the various different attorneys, i want it this way, i want it that way and why they listened, especially after you see what had happened to someone like myself, why? >> yeah. >> i'm getting whiplash here. >> do you think melania and ivanka were begged to attend trial? >> that's a great question. it's funny because katie phang posted something about how don jr. must have lost paper, scissors, rock and he had to go. this is what they took offense to. ivanka never showed up. jared i don't think showed up and neither did melania. you have to ask yourself the question why? i can understand why melania didn't to be honest with you. hush money case, the whole notion of donald having this sexual relationship not just with stormy daniels, but with karen mcdougal as well. i'm sure melania was trying to preserve her own sense of identity and maybe to protect t barron as well. >> you wouldn't invoke melania trump repeatedly, which they did, including blaming her for coming up with the locker room talk defense to the access hollywood. >> they introduced her to the jury. that's why i wondered she never showed up. >> andrew weissmann is not in this room and i think we can bring him in. andrew, you are allowed to ask michael cohen a question. >> hi, michael. i had a question for you about the actual last witness in the case on the defense case, bob costello, and we all got to read a series of emails, some of which you were on and some of which were happening behind your back which i think the jurors were led to believe, i think probably concluded, that this was this huge effort that was undertaken by him, by rudy giuliani and by defendant trump to keep you from cooperating so that you would not flip. i was wondering if you could take us back to that time as to what was it within you that knew to end up breaking with trump world and this was not the road orchestrated for you, was not where you wanted to be? >> great question, andrew, and from the very first meeting that i had with him and jeffrey citron, all they wanted me to do was sign a retainer agreement and all bob costello was interested in doing was promoting his relationship with himself and rudy giuliani. i never trusted rudy. i watched him try to manipulate the game when he was trying to get more involved in the trump sphere every time bob costello would mention rudy giuliani, there was a picture of his cell phone where he's trying to prove to me he just spoke to rudy, i realized that what they're doing to me is what i've seen in the past and that was also when they did the same with i think it was either paul manafort or steve bannon with interrogatories when they were working with the lawyer in order to insure that donald's responses to the interrogatories matched that of it was either bannon and manafort, one of the two, and you know when something sits wrong in your gut and you got to follow your gut -- they give you an exam and tell you always go with your first answer when you start scratching off, that's usually the wrong answer -- my initial impression was stay away. i wanted to keep him around so i could sort of pick his brain, whatever's there, but what i was most concerned about was the fact that he was going to run back to rudy who was going to use that information in order to ingratiate himself into donald because i just realized i was being set up. >> can i just confirm it was rudy colludey? >> rudy colludey, drunken giuliani. >> thank you for being here. i know you put your head on a pivot. >> i feel okay because i have my cracker jack lawyer next to me. i'm very protected. >> this starts a different part of your life now, putting this behind you. we wish you all the best, michael. >> thank you. great to see all of you. we're going to be speaking with jamie raskin in a moment. i'm really interested in getting his reaction in terms of what happened today, somebody who has been so much a central part of trying to get accountability for trump's alleged crimes in washington and also explaining them and explaining constitutional law to the american public and rule of law. jamie raskin is in a really singular position. as michael and danya leave us, he's got his own place in history. i described it earlier shakespearean. he's still in the middle of it, i guess. >> he's complicated and i think trump's legal team as a legal strategy erred in flattening him. the jury was able to experience his story, in part because of the work of his lawyer, donya perry, in not flattening the trump experience because everyone told the same story today. michael cohen told it i think 17th , in terms of telling the same meeting. he comes in at the end. i think there was such a gap between the way a lot of people in the media, not us, but media in general has covered michael cohen and the way he was introduced to the jury with all of his sort of peaks and valleys valleys. they didn't look away from the crimes and to own the crimes he committed on trump's behalf and in the end the jury was capable of assessing what he did wrong, who he did it for and instructed judge merchan to corroborate it. you have to look back at the four. >> everybody involved with stormy daniels was involved with trump. none of these were people that went into it with his enemies. they were all people in the administration who were allies of trump who wanted him to be president and when they went before the january 6th committee, the truth they had to tell was damning to him and this was the same thing. david pecker was almost worshipful of trump. >> still. >> as was hope hicks, as was jeffrey mcconaughey. >> and they were damning and yet they still were trump people. i do think about john dean a lot because john dean was the guy that turned on nixon and said he came clean and he's remembered for that. that is john dean. john dean got up to a lot of funny business before that moment which is way less remembered. >> there's a reason he was in a position >> he was chin deep in that stuff, had a moment of conscious and came forward and told about what he was seeing and i think there's something to take away there. >> michael cohen's testimony was subjected to a very high level of scrutiny by this jury upon direct instruction from the judge. judge merchan said, you need to keep in mind here michael cohen is an accomplice in the charged crime. so therefore, you may not accept his testimony except if it is corroborated by other evidence and testimony. you can't take it alone, on his word. as michael just explained to us, every single thing he testified to that was substantively important to the charge was corroborated by other people and by documents. joining us now is congressman jamie raskin of maryland, top democrat on the house oversight committee and sort of constitutional law explainer in chief to the american public. he served on the january 6th committee, the lead manager in donald trump's second impeachment trial which was about trump trying to overthrow the government by force. congressman raskin, it's an honor to have you here. >> thank you so much, rachel. >> let me ask you first of all, if we have been talking about this in a way that is wrong or if you feel like the media reaction, the work we've been trying to do explaining what happened here is a bit off base. >> no. i resonate very much with the conversation i was just listening to. look, i take great pride in what's happened because i feel it's such a sweet vindication of the rule of law in all of the complicated parts of it that frustrate people because it slows things down like the presumption of innocence, like the fact you need to get a unanimous verdict among 12 citizens randomly drawn, like the fact the defendant doesn't have to testify and can elect not to testify, like due process and right to appeal which undoubtedly donald trump as a convicted felon now will exercise in order to exercise his appeal rights and he's got every right to do that, but i think we can feel proud that the system of justice and rule of law within liberally democracy has survived. i've also felt proud about being a politician because most politicians don't behave like donald trump. of course, the very first thing he ever ran for was president and that was an act of great hubris which paid off for him, but look, most of us go out and try to get things done for our constituents and then we ask for votes. we don't view this as an exercise in celebrity and glamour and yet trump to the extent he got involved in politics was all about shaking down the president of ukraine to make up lies and dirt about his opponent or paying hush money to keep the truth out of the mainstream of public opinion or inciting a violent insurrection to overthrow an election and to try to conduct a coup against the peaceful transfer of power. most politicians don't behave like that and if you don't may of like that, you might not be the richest person in the world and might not get to own your own hotels and islands and so on, but you can serve people and that's what it's about. the minute a politician no longer act like a servant of the people, but rather master of the people like a monarch or king, that is the people to reject, convict, impeach, prosecute, get them out of the way because democracy is all about serving the people. those of us who aspire and attain a public office are nothing but the servants of the people. >> in your role as a politician, as you put it, you have played key roles in efforts to hold trump accountable, the january 6th investigation, the second impeachment of trump obviously. there's a lot of people who are looking at reaction from republicans tonight who are looking at the trump instant efforts to fundraise off this conviction tonight who are looking at the predictions that trump and his allies and even some independent observers have made saying that this will make him a martyr, will somehow help him politically. how do you view that? do you share that perception and how do you factor that into the sort of calculus as to how much work should be done to hold him accountable, particularly when we don't have any real expectation it's going to end up in a prison sentence or keep him from running again or anything else that might matter to him a great deal? >> i think you got to celebrate the jury system which when the country started and in its british background a lot of juries were composed from a particular craft or profession. you had to know a lot about brick laying in a brick laying case, for example. in the american system we draw from the whole community, the cross-section, and that's one of the beautiful things about what we saw happen today. we brought impeachment charges against donald trump for inciting insurrection against the union and the vote in the house of representatives was 232-197. we got all the democrats. we got ten republicans. that was okay, but there were still 197 people who saw the insurrection happen and saw exactly what trump did who voted no. then we got over to the senate and again the evidence was overwhelming and we had a 57-43 vote, which as you know was not enough. we were ten votes shy of the two-thirds requirement, but look what happened in the jury, 12 people drawn without any political or partisan implications to their appointment. they were just citizens and they studied the facts, scrutinized the witnesses and came back with a verdict that vindicated common sense. you got to put your faith in the people. it doesn't mean it's failsafe. it doesn't always work, but the people here have done their job. the jury did their job and that judge did an excellent job of clarifying every step of the process. >> in terms of faith in people, there are nine people the country doesn't have a lot of faith in right now at the united states supreme court. we are awaiting their ruling among other things as the case as to whether or not presidents are immune from prosecution. aside from the question of potential recusal from justices alito and thomas which i know you have written about and advocated on strongly, what are you expecting from the supreme court in terms of the immunity ruling and what should the public understand about what impact that might have on this verdict today and other pending cases against trump? >> the main thing we can expect from it is delay and postponement. that is clearly the political logic that was operating when the supreme court didn't summarily affirm a brilliant d.c. circuit court bipartisan decision which held, of course, the president is not above the law. of course, the president cannot order out for assassinations and remain immune from prosecution so long as he's not impeached and convicted in the senate, something that has never happened in our history with our four impeachments that went to senate trial. so they slowed everything down. they'll probably slice the baloney real fine and take up a bunch of unnecessary questions, rendering advisory opinions as they're not supposed to do about what if it were a crime that was clearly outside of the president's duties, if it was inside the president's duties, on the line, near the line, they will make it seem like a far more complex case than it is to justify postponement in delay which was really the whole purpose of taking it up. they should have just denied as they do in more than 99% of the cases. they should have summarily affirmed what the d.c. circuit had done in that totally comprehensive opinion. >> congressman jamie raskin, it's an honor to have you with us tonight, sir. thank you for the time. we've got much more of our special coverage ahead. mary trump is going to be joining us soon for her very first interview since her uncle donald trump was convicted by a jury of his peers. again, this is our ongoing special coverage of today the unanimous guilty on all counts verdict against former president donald trump, the first ever american president to be convicted of one crime, let alone 34 felonies. we'll be back. stay with us. since my citi custom cash® card automatically 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[ gasps ] this. wow! do you have any ottomans without legs. sure. you'll flip for the poof cart. in the wayborhood, there's a place for all of us. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪ ♪ ♪ welcome to the roots of our legacy. where excellence, comfort, and electricity... are forever in bloom. welcome to beyond. the mercedes-maybach eqs suv. it's time to get away and cash in at cache creek casino resort. to rock and to roll. to go all out or go all in with four stars and rising stars. northern california's premier casino resort is the perfect place to do as much... or as little as you want. make your getaway now and cache in at cache creek casino resort. charged, convicted and sentenced to prison. his campaign vice chairman rick gaetz was charged, convicted and sentenced, roger stone charged, convicted and sentenced, white house national security adviser mike flynn charged and convicted, campaign adviser george papadopoulos charged, convicted, sentenced. his business' cfo allen weisselberg was charged, convicted and sentenced to prison. his business itself was found guilty of criminal tax fraud and real estate organizations can't go to prison. otherwise it might have. of course, trump's former personal lawyer, michael cohen, who we just spoke with here on set was charged, convicted, and sentenced to prison for a criminal scheme that prosecutors describe as directed by trump for which trump was the beneficiary. cohen was the star witness in the prosecution's case in which donald trump was just convicted on all 34 felony counts himself. as of tonight, donald trump himself has now joined that list. it now sort of feels inevitable looking back at it, but until it happened tonight nobody could be sure it ever would. that said, he seems to know it was coming, right? he seems to have known something. there's this remarkable headline in "the new york times" this week, "trump leans into an outlaw image as his criminal trial concludes. the former president has increasingly aligned himself with fellow defendants and people convicted of crimes." as we headed toward this unanimous all counts guilty verdict, tonight donald trump has recently, in fact, been bringing convicted and accused felons with him to campaign events, including people accused of murder. he's even been bringing ex-cons and convicted felons with him to stand behind him in court for this criminal trial. this is clearly a political strategy. he thinks it's a tough guy look that will work for him presumably. he also kind of has to lean into it, right? you can't pretend not to be a criminal while you're a criminal defendant. why not run with it? this is now who he surrounds himself with and part of his message is pick me. i'm on the criminal side of the ledger. pick me and my criminal friends. we'll take care of this legal system that you've got here. convicted of 34 felonies tonight. joining us now is donald trump's niece, mary trump, author of a book about her uncle called "too much and never enough, how my family created the world's most dangerous man." she's host of the nerd avengers on marytrumpmedia.com. this is mary's first interview since this verdict today. mary trump, it's nice to see you. thank you very much for being with us tonight. >> it's great to be here, rachel. >> what was your reaction when you first heard the news? >> i was, as you can imagine, believed happy and it took a minute to sink in, but also as the counts went 1 through 34 guilty, guilty, guilty, et cetera, the weight of this moment really sunk in. it really hit me. this has so much meaning for all of us. i'm incredibly proud of my city and my state. i'm really just relieved on behalf of the american people. this is such a long time coming and i know that he's been found guilty of the charges that were presented to the jury, but in some ways it feels like it's standing in for all of the other crimes this man has gotten away with his entire life. so there was something just incredibly gratifying and moving about it. i've heard people say we can celebrate the jury system. we can celebrate the jurors and the way this trial was handled, but it's a dark day in america that somebody in donald's position has been found guilty of these crimes and i would respectfully disagree. i think it's a great day for america. i think it shows us that in some instances when it really matters, the system is holding and that even somebody like him who has with impunity gotten away with some of the most egregious crimes over the course of decades has finally at long last been held accountable. >> what impact do you think this will have on him personally? you understand his sort of demeanor and history in a way the rest of us don't, the rest of us only having seen the public side of him? how do you think this will change him or land with him? how do you think he'll respond? >> it's interesting. i heard michael cohen say earlier donald is somebody who will never take responsibility and will always deflect and cast blame to anybody else. this is something he learned at the knees of my grandfather who taught donald the same thing. never take responsibility for anything. weapon saw that during his disastrous four years during his administration. he never takes responsibility for anything and because of that along with the fact again, he has operated with impunity for so long, i think it's going to take a while for this to sink in and i think we'll see a very similar dynamic to what happened after the 2020 election. there is a moment in private when he understood that he had lost. he will understand that he has indeed been found guilty on 34 criminal counts -- i'm sorry for the smile, but it makes me smile to say that out loud -- but the humiliation of that is going to hit him so deeply as it did four years ago that he as i believe you said earlier will have to create his alternate reality and unfortunately we see that this is not something that just impacts him. this is something that has drawn in millions, tens of millions of people, and it has left all of us at risk. so i think we need to expect the same thing here. he will do everything in his power to spin this so that while he'll try to make it an advantage to him and we need to guard against that and he will also stop at nothing to change the subject. so i do not agree that we don't have to worry about violence here. we they'd to worry about his willingness and eagerness actually to use his power and his platform to get other people to carry out his threats. we saw this yesterday when officer fernone's mother was s.w.a.t.ed shortly after he showed up to speak his mind outside the courthouse yesterday. so there's a lot going on, but we can never ever underestimate or overestimate, sorry, the extent to which donald will use any means at his disposal to deflect and get his way. >> marine, it's alex wagner. thanks for joining us tonight. we know from reports and witnessing ourselves that your uncle was resting his retinas to be generous for many points during this trial. when the verdict was read, however, he was very much eyes wide open. he was paying attention and largely expressionless. maybe that's because there weren't cameras in the courtroom or maybe because he was intently focused. do you think he is afraid right now? there is the very real possibility that he will serve prison time. it may not be this year. we don't know when it will be, but given what michael cohen served for the same crime, i do wonder if you think he quietly is very scared. >> well, he certainly should be and whether he is expresses that consciously or not, i don't know, but certainly on a deep level he is afraid because, alex, this is a moment he has been dreading his entire life. donald has always known that he is nothing of what he's claimed to be. he is not a tough guy. he is not an outlaw. he's somebody who is terrified of humiliation. he's somebody who understands that in the language of my family being a loser is absolutely the worst thing you can be. he cannot pretend otherwise and i think he also must sense that this is a very big domino that's fallen here and we may see or hopefully we will see a very swift unraveling of his support. i think we'll see a lot of trial balloons the next few days from republicans who may not want to be associated with somebody who is a convicted felon running for the presidency, but there are all sorts of reasons for donald to be afraid right now. i think chief among them even though this is not something that can happen in reality, he understands that in my family if you're a loser, that's something that's going to get you killed metaphorically speaking, of course. >> mary, it's lawrence o'donnell. i wanted to follow up on that loser point because i watched your uncle in the courtroom for so many days with michael cohen on the stand and others and your uncle was sitting there as a salesman that he always is. he's always trying to sell something. he's trying to sell those 12 people on a story he wasn't willing to say himself. he wasn't willing to get on the stand and testify. michael cohen did testify and now when donald trump heard that word guilty 34 times, he discovered that it didn't work, that he spent all these weeks in this room trying to sell those people and it didn't work. they unanimously did not buy it and the same time when he heard those 34 guilties, he had to realize they believed stormy daniels. they believed everything she said, every one of those details about inside the hotel room. they believed michael cohen. they did not believe my side of the story that i was trying to sell them and so he comes out the loser in that charm and selling contest with that jury and i'm just wondering what that does to him because that goes to the very core of what he thinks his talent is, which is convincing people of things. >> lawrence, it's such an excellent point. we see and he has learned what happens in a situation in which he is not fully in control or he doesn't have other people controlling the environment to his benefit. we saw this i think in part by his complete lack of understanding that he even needed to try, you know. i think if you want the jury on your side, you're not going to fall asleep during people's testimony. you're not going to attack them ever in any way whatsoever. you're going to be attentive. you're not going to complain about the conditions inside of the courtroom because he's not the only person who needed to be there, but he's the only person who was there because he didn't have a choice because he's the one who committed these crimes we can now say. everybody else had to be there, also, because of what he had done. so he just didn't understand what it means to cater to people in an environment he doesn't control and i think it was his lack of control that made it impossible for him to rise to the occasion. of course, we know he was never going to testify. so he really needed to just sort of behave like a respectful, decent human being who was taking this seriously and not just sort of skating on his hope that the jury was going to be so intimidated by him and his power and his position and it failed miserably. and i think he's going to understand that. he will blame his lawyers. he will blame the judge. he will blame everybody on this tv program right now, you know. he'll blame everybody. he won't take responsibility, but he will understand the limits to his own personal power and i think that's going to freak him out. >> hey, mary, it's joy. thank you for being here tonight. if he's had a reckoning emotionally, even privately, after this conviction, he will have another on july 11th when he is sentenced. then four days later he will accept the nomination of the republican party. prepare us for what the propaganda field will look like. how will he explain this and call upon his party to explain this to that crowd at the republican national convention. what should we expect to hear as an excuse for what had just happened at that point four days earlier? >> joy, it's a great question and it's sort of related to what we were just talking about a minute ago. he is going to feel completely unbound now by any sense of having to operate within somebody else's system to the extent he even bothered, but once we get to sentencing i think he's also going to realize that the other thing he wasn't able to control and wasn't able to behave in the context of was the idea that he might be facing prison and the irony for him is that if he had behaved like a normal human being throughout this trial, i think the risk of prison would have been fairly low, but because of his egregious behavior, because he broke that gag order 11 times, because the judge had to make that ruling and because the judge deferred any significant punishment, i think the chances that he gets a prison term have increased exponentially. so he's going to have to deal with that as well. so whatever happens, though, the convention is going to make 2016 look like child's play and, joy, as i think you said earlier, the hideous chants of lock her up, the utter lawlessness and vindictiveness that was directed at the democratic candidate, hillary clinton, was like nothing we had ever seen before in this country. it's going to be so much worse, so much darker and especially given the fact that we've already seen what he's been doing. he and his minions and his enablers in the republican party have been telling us the last few months exactly what they plan to do with this country if we are reckless enough to give them power again. >> mary trump, hi. it's ari melber. we try not to speculate too much, but you can. do you have the view donald trump based on what you know will be likely to fire his lawyers soon in this case? we've seen some already depart. if he gets legal counsel, to show contrition, to authorize his lawyers to express that at sentencing? is there any way you think he could play that out, pretend to feel that way for a day? >> you know, ari, i think he's constitutionally incapable of such a thing even if it was to his benefit and one of the biggest clues to that end is the way his lawyers behaved in the courtroom clearly at his direction even though it went against what they should have been doing to protect their client. i'm not a lawyer and even i was able to identify serious missteps his lawyers made because donald was directing them to say certain things or behave in certain ways and that's because he cannot face the truth about who he is or why he was there or what he's facing. so there will certainly be no pretense even at contrition and he's just going to put himself in even more jeopardy whether or not he retains this counsel. i don't know. if i were there, i wouldn't want to continue working for him, but i can't imagine they're having a very good night. let's put it that way. >> mary trump, we're really glad you were able to be with us tonight, privilege to have you here on such an important moment in history. thanks. >> thank you all, appreciate it. now that trump has been found guilty, one of the things we've talked about, joy, you were raising this in your conversation with mary as well, is the next step in the process, of course, sentencing. trump sentencing hearing that be set for july 11th at 10:00 a.m. eastern. until then trump has bail conditions, of course, because he's a criminal defendant. those have not changed. he's still out on his own could he recognizance without bail. so he's free to move about the country the way he wants to, but he wants found guilty today on all 34 counts he was charged with and in terms of sentencing each count carries with it the possibility of up to four years in prison. judge merchan is likely if he does impose any prison sentence, he's likely to impose sentences concurrently. that means he wouldn't be stacking up four years and then four years and then four years. that would mean trump would serve his sentences simultaneously, not as a 136 year string in back-to-back sentences. in terms of whether or not he'll end up behind bars in a prison somewhere, that is unclear. it's not necessarily required. judge merchan could impose probation with no prison time. that would still mean trump would become the first former president required to regularly report to a probation officer. it could mean the bar for him to be jailed if he committed other crimes in the future could be lowered to the floor. him being on probation would mean the ability to jail trump would be instantly effectuatable if he committed any other crimes which is a weird way to live as a presidential candidate. all that is likely far off. trump will almost certainly appeal the verdict today. that appeals process will almost definitely push all this past the election. being found guilty does not bar you from running for president. what does trump's sentencing mean in terms of what actually happens before the election? practically speaking, it means trump will be back in a manhattan courtroom with the news of these 34 guilty verdicts back on front pages across the country at his sentencing hearing on july 11th. four days after that on july 15th , unless the republican party changes course, that will be the start of the republican national convention that will nominate him for the presidency. joining us now is somebody who has direct experience with these matters, former assistant district attorney in the manhattan district attorney's office, catherine christian. thanks for being with us. let me ask if i've explained those basics of what comes next. the probation report, the sentencing phase, and what we could likely expect from that phase. is that all correct, as you understand it? >> it's correct except you probably see donald trump's lawyers to file a notion to set aside the verdict. so that could delay the sentence because they'll file it and the prosecution will have a chance to respond to it and the judge will respond to it. that often will delay the sentence. except for that one little filing of the motion to set aside the verdict, it will go according to how it always is for regular defendants. >> that filing of the motion to set aside the verdict is separate from and in addition to the oral motion that we heard in the court today after the jury verdict where todd blanche on trump's behalf asked for an acquittal. >> yeah. and it's unclear because i was literally in the subway when my phone blew up. he originally you recall moved for what's called a trial order of dismissal and the judge reserved decision on that. so it's unclearly whether the judge finally said denied, but that's also outstanding. in addition, they can file now that the verdict is in a motion to set aside the verdict and then when that is denied, which it ultimately will be and he's sentenced, then their appeal will be filed. >> in terms of the appeals process and sentencing process, as you said, the sentencing will go ahead in anticipation of his filing the appeal. they won't delay the sentencing to follow, to come at the end of the appeals process? >> yeah. the sentencing comes before appeal. you can't file your notice of appeal until you have now been sentenced and it's official. he is now sentenced, convicted felon of 34 counts and then he files the notice for appeal and assuming his lawyers, whoever does the appeal, responds on time and gets the filings in, i believe the appellate division, which is called the appellate division first department here, will decide that appeal probably by january or february of 2025. again, that's assuming everything is done on time by the parties. the court is ready, but the parties have to file their briefs and do everything they're supposed to do on time. >> if he is elected president in the election in november and that appeal would otherwise in the normal course be expected maybe in january by 2025, do you think that his election as president has an anticipatable effect in terms of how the appellate division will handle this matter? >> i don't think so at all. remember this is state. >> yeah. >> and they will decide that either, you know, the jury was right and your conviction has been affirmed and then he will get a chance to try to appeal to the higher court. in new york the highest court is called the court of appeals. so they're going to treat him like any other defendant who files an appeal and files everything on time. >> is the appeals process like the process that we just saw in judge merchan's courtroom one for which the defendant has to be present? >> no. he has a right to, but he does not have to be present. in fact, defendants usually aren't present at the appellate court when their appeals are argued. >> one last specific question on the probation department. they prepare a report, essentially an internal report or is it public facing? that's essentially meant to help the judge and judge's decision on the sentence. what can you tell us about that? >> yeah. it's filed and it's still kind of old school in the criminal term in manhattan. it's filed with the court. it's called the investigation and sentencing period and when the sentencing report is filed, the defense, prosecution and court will get it and the report is in the official court file. >> catherine christian, absolutely essential to have you with us here tonight. thank you so much. >> sure. we've got much more ahead next hour as our coverage continues of the historic conviction of former president donald trump, a unanimous jury verdict today convicted on all 34 felony counts. i'll be right back.

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