>> and very good morning to, you amellio. she will begin this with a major new development that will have a big impact on donald trump's legal defense for his upcoming cases. a pair of new important rulings from federal judges in d.c. clarify that the former president is not immune from criminal prosecution nor civil liability for his actions on january the six. late last night, judge tanya chutkan struck on the former presidents attempt to throw out the federal election case against him based on his claims of presidential immunity. one of four motions to dismiss that his team had fired in october. check-ins robust in vital opinion polls from the tax structure in history of the american constitution and conclude that they, quote, do not support that contention, end quote. that goes on to say, no court or any other branch of government has ever accepted it. this court will not hold. whatever immunities a sitting president may enjoy, the united states has only one chief executive at a time, and that position does not confer a lifelong get out of jail free pass. former presidents enjoy no special commissions on their federal criminal liability. the defendant may be subject to federal investigation, indictment, prosecution, conviction, and punishment for in criminal acts undertaken while in office, and quote. chutkan makes crystal clear that beyond the fact of trump's broad claims of immunity are not rooted in america's founding principles, it is undeniably within the public's interest for public officials to be held accountable for their actions. she continues, quote, the public has an undisputed interest in promoting respect for the law, deterring crime, protecting themselves, and rehabilitating offenders. all of those interests would be thwarted by granting former presidents absolute criminal immunity. most importantly, a former presidents exposure to federal criminal liability is essential to fulfilling our constitutional promise of equal justice under the law. chutkan also struck down a second motion to dismiss the case, rejecting trump's first amendment argument establishing that it is quote well established that the first amendment does not protect speech that is used as an instrument of crime, end quote. chutkan's decision came just hours after a three judge panel at the d.c. circuit court of appeals ruled the trump is also not immune from civil liability. that ruling allows for a number of civil suits, not criminal, civil suits that are seeking to hold trump accountable for the events of january six, including ones that were filed by capitol police officers and members of congress. now these opinions on the presidential immunity question will likely be read and studied for years to come. they addressed one of the unaddressed questions that's come as the judicial bodies consider for the first time the prosecution of a former president of united states who is also currently campaigning for another four years in the white house. it also highlights that trump's far reaching attempts to escape prosecution are continuing, when i was also in full display in a courtroom in atlanta, georgia yesterday, where trump's lawyer steve sat all appeared for the first time. and argued in setting a trial date right now in fulton county's election interference case. now in fulton county's>> if your client does n election in 2024, could he even be tried in 2025? >> the answer to that is, i believe [inaudible] >> hard to hear, but basically he was saying trial won't take place until trump is out of office if he wins again. january 20th, 2029 would be the earliest possible date that the defense believes that this case can go to trial if donald trump wins a second term in office. join me now is olivia troye, former senior adviser to then vice president mike pence. she's also the executive director for the bipartisan gun safety organization 97%. although assess, ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history at nyu, and -- threats to democracy worldwide, and she is the author of a very important and timely book, strongmen, from mussolini to the president. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. the interesting part of this for those following, ruth, is that maybe tanya, it maybe fani willis will gather a case in august, or maybe earlier, maybe not. maybe the january six case will be delayed. maybe georgia will be delayed. your argument all along has been dealing with donald trump and the threat that he poses to democracy may not be in a court of law. it may have to be a political process in that may have to involve a very involved republican party. >> yes, however, i can't overestimate the importance of this, these rulings, and we are hearing so much about the army of corrupt we are cats and lawyers that trump is assembling to manage his autocracy, the trump 2025, but we have a army of courageous and dedicated civil servants and prosecutors and judges who are upholding the rule of law, and using the instruments that are available to us to show that no one is above the law, and the essence of authoritarianism is the removal of all accountability, and an executive has no restraints or limits, and the politicization of the other branches of government. so these rulings show very clearly, and judge chutkan's -- saying that he is not a divine right keen, he could be held accountable like anybody else, is absolutely crucial also to our morale, because people are feeling like there's not much that they can do against this tidal wave, and we have our own army of dedicated civil servants fighting for the cause of democracy. >> judge chutkan's ruling was 48 pages, and as you both know, i enjoyed reading these things. i would recommend people actually read it, because you actually come away as you said, ruth, with a little bit of confidence that their people who are looking sensibly at our constitution and our history and our laws and saying, no, you can't get away with this. that's, that you are correct in saying that there is an army of people, and in the army is somebody named olivia troye. she was somebody was inside of the government and took a very difficult and courageous stance to say hey something is not going right here, and i'm going to work otherwise to fix these things, so tell me your views on, this olivia, as you see this playing out. this man, donald, trump continues to lead the pack by a very long shot for the republican nomination. he is continuing to pull out every trick in the book to try to get his trials delayed. he believes he's going to run for president and possibly win and never face accountability. >> yeah, look, i remain gravely concerned. i'm a believer in the rule of law, and i'm rooting for the judicial system in the situation. and i think there should be accountability, but honestly, i keep wondering, why can't the republican party hold him accountable themselves? and that is something that is just completely mind-blowing. look, they voted to expel george santos. banks gonna state that did that. he was a complete clown serving in our congress, and why can't they apply that same lens to somebody like donald trump? i would say that santos is very similar and that he had -- then he has. and we heading towards authoritarianism. and why can't we take a stand against this? why can't we choose a better candidate at the expense of what they're doing right now to the republican party? and this is dangerous. like ruth says, there were people like me who are willing to take a stand. there are others who stayed in government and did their best to mitigate very challenging situations and to mitigate damage that donald trump was attempting to do during his presidency. those people will all be gone. if he should return to the oval office, and that is something we should not. forget >> and we've talked on the show about the 2025 plan that donald trump has. it is written down. he's actually going to do it. we're not going to bubble through the next four years of a presidency the way that he did the first time if he wins. . he has a plan to make sure the people like, you olivia, have no role in his government, let alone possibly in this country. ruth, let's talk about what olivia just said. , let's talk ageorge santos is m donald trump and that he does not have a cold following. he had a few people stand up for him and congress and defend him, but generally speaking, most people see him for what he is. why was it easy for, well it wasn't really easy, but why were republicans in congress able to deal with george santos and say, this guy is bad for, us he's a liar, he's a fraud, and he is damaging. because one could use all of those arguments for donald trump. >> sometimes, this is part of the logic of corruption because unfortunately, for america, the gop has become an autocratic party. it is a captured party captured by a tyrannical want to be autocrat, and they are totally dedicated to propaganda and corruption and the threat and reality of violence now. that is how they want to lead. and so when you have a party in the situation listing to get back to power, they are not going to do the kinds of what we call elite defections. it's very sad, because all that you would need is for those people who we know from reporting, and are sometimes in tears, or not sleeping at night, or having threats against them, they would have to stand up united against donald trump, and that would chart a new course for the republican party. instead, they have been doubling down to having absorbed the principles and methods of his coup attempt. so we are not going to see in the elite defections as they're called right now because they are bent on getting back to power and realizing their dream. >> so let me explore this a little bit more, olivia. earlier this week, you're actually appeared at a hearing at congress. this is the weaponization of government committee, at a time when donald trump himself has grown more and more vocal about his very specific plans to weaponize the federal government against critics and people who have undermined it when he gets back into office. tell me about, this because of the three of us here, this is most personal to you. you are the kind of person, because i guess all three of us are, people they do not want in his way. but tell me about what do you think the outcome of that discussion is, and what is going to happen? >> look, i was asked, i was invited actually by the ranking democrat on that committee to testify, and it was basically three against one on the witness panel, but i will say that, you know, i sat there and i thought, let's have a serious conversation about the weaponization of the federal government if we really want to actually approach this and a constructive, way in a productive way. and i pointed out that there were numerous examples of how donald trump during his time in the white house did weaponize the government, i would say, where he launched investigations, utilize the department of justice. i talked about the fact that he held back disaster relief on states that were blue because they did not vote for him and he was still holding that revenge, and i talked about what to come in the future with the weaponization of the federal government against the people should he return to office, and i have given new makes examples of how this will be used against the political opponents. i even talked about how the people of florida are in the path of hurricanes all the time and they need that kind of disaster relief. i talked about the fact that he would be angry at around santa's and he would consider that revenge on him to not give them that relief, which is completely unlawful and insane. because this is something that should not be partisan, we are helping people in need, right? but this is what could happen. they don't want to get to the bottom of that. they want to talk about conspiracy theories. they want to talk about the century of conservatives. i sat there and said, anytime i engage with social media companies, it was about violent acts of terrorism that were being livestreamed when they were happening, such as the christchurch shootings, and what that meant for other shootings that were inspired by that shooter in our country here. i talked about the removal of a massacre of a u.s. missionary overseas where i did call and say, can you consider removing this content. consider, right, it was a request. no, it was not an destruction. they have a first amendment right. it's up to social medias policies and whether they are going to remove that content. those are the kind of things that i kind of went down, but that was not obviously what this hearing is, and it is obviously meant to provide soundbites that support someone like donald trump in jim jordan and all of these people. >> ruth, i've often wondered about the name of that committee, the weaponization of government. it's almost weaponizing that committee. thanks to both of you all. olivia troye, former senior adviser to then vice president mike pence, and the executive director of the bipartisan gun advocacy group 97%, ruth ben-ghiat is a professor of history at nyu and an author of the important book strongmen from mussolini to the president. all right, a quick programming note. you may see it on the screen. this monday, the former republican congresswoman liz cheney of wyoming to as my friend rachel maddow to discuss the current state of the gop and the threat that former president donald trump poses to american democracy. tune in for the rachel maddow show this evening, nine pm eastern, only on msnbc. still ahead, i will speak with a journalist behind the explosive report that israeli intelligence knew about hamas's attack plan over a year ago but dismissed it as being aspirational. then msnbc kerber charles blow has a bold proposal for black americans to leverage their political power. he reversed migration back to the south. we will talk to him in a few minutes about the documentary. plus, george santos lies have finally caught up to him. he's now the sixth person and all of american history to be expelled from congress. we will tell you what he's up to next. this is velshi, we will be right back. ght back and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ you want to be able to provide your child get it before it's gone on the subway app. with the tools or resources they need. with reliable internet at home, through the internet essentials program, the world opened up. fellas, fellas. that's how my son was able to find the hidden genius project. we wanted to give y'all the necessary skills to compete with the future. kevin's now part of this next generation of young people who feel they can thrive. ♪ ♪ israel resumed its bombardment of gaza on friday morning following the collapse of a weeklong truce designed to facilitate hostage exchange between israel and hamas. during the truth, hamas released over 400 israeli and foreign hostages. as we will lease to hundred and 40 palestinian prisoners that it was holding. according to new york times, a majority of the prisoners have not been convicted of a crime. overnight, israeli airstrikes intensified, targeting areas across the gaza strip, killing at least 200 people. according to the gaza health ministry. on friday, leaflets warning palestinians to move further south were dropped in southern gaza where palestinians had previously evacuated from the north. the leaflets warned civilians to move towards raw, pushed the egyptian border, despite overnight bombings in that area as well. the military also announce interactive map up given its accessibility given the lack of electricity or internet in many parts of gaza. civilians located designated areas on the map or sent estimates warnings on friday about ten minutes after the messages were sent, and the airstrikes began according to cbs news. 11 ember of aid trucks managed to enter gaza after being prevented by israel on friday. the u.n. says that the current flow of aid is no match for the need of the civilians in gaza. you had a chief martin grove it's renewed his call for a cease-fire statement least on friday. quote, today in a matter of hours, scores were reportedly killed and injured. families were told to evacuate. again, hopes were dashed. the children, women, and men of gaza are all terrified. they have nowhere safe to go and very little to survive on. they live surrounded by disease, destruction and death. end quote. for more on this, i'm joined now by james elder, the spokesperson for unicef, who is currently in gaza. james, good to see you again, thank you for taking time to talk to us. what are you seeing on the ground in gaza now that the truce has collapsed? >> devastation and heartache. i think that what you read there is so spot on. death unfortunately. seeing that of hospitals, where hospitals, there are many left. people just where i am now trying to move somewhere again on footpaths and so. on a degree of confusion and fear for people who already living a nightmare. as you said, them apartments overnight. if i had in the idea that this would not be like the people here endured the horrors of the last seven weeks. so just a of running sense of fear, and nowhere to hide. absolutely nowhere to hide. >> james, this is what you do james. you've been in places that are difficult, but i want you to help our viewers understand the situation and gaza. a human expert has said in a tweet that this is a grim game ofrkey fit. i move from and this current killing a civilians organized killing. there's no electricity in southern gaza on a regular basis. and so how does the population check estimates messages about coming attacks, end quote? what do you make of this, because this is the big question that people have, right, that israel needs to or say they need to get rid of gaza, and there are lot of people understand, that i undertake that happened on october 7th, but this feels like an absolute no-win for innocent palestinian civilians living in gaza. palestinian civil>> without a , unfortunately, and that is so much harder to bear. when you see those children, when you see those bones, when you see with the glass of shrapnel does, not to a few, ali. what i found so difficult here after 20 years with unicef is just the intensity. seeing hospitals, war zones, children on the floor, medical staff doing 36 hour shifts, and a desperate lack of wanted to help people give birth. and the safety issue. people -- so many times. i spoke to a woman who said that my home was bombed. my two children were killed, my husband was killed, and i moved to a refuge. it was bombed south. i am told to move again. there is a dangerous narrative i believe which is around this area of go to a safe place. it creates this sense that there is indeed somewhere. one of the places they wanted for people's down the -- around geographically 4% of the entire space of gaza. around 4%. they want to put 80% of the population in there. you literally have people almost on top of each other. i think that they know. that i think that they are aware of, that and that i find very, very unnerving. that kind of narrative. and so there is nowhere safe. when i'm talking to children in the hospital, they are not safe, and they know it. when i talk to families, i saw a family two or three days ago who yesterday were bombed. they are not safe. i know where i am, i am not safe. i have 100 even colleagues who have been killed. we have to drive from the message that the only safety comes when the aerial attacks, the artillery, the bombs, when they stop. >> what do you need people to understand? being in, gaza being on the ground, being a 20-year veteran of unicef means you see all sorts of things. i talk to you from places in the world where you have been. you tweet a lot about empathy, right? there are a lot of people, this is politics, or this is polarized, or this is existential depending on what your views. are you trying to express to people that there is something just different, just emphasize with the humanity of innocent children and people dying. >> absolutely. i think this entire discussion needs to be about, it be about compassion. i find very unsettling, i find disturbing how so many people, particularly people in power, seem to have been able to overlook the killing of thousands and thousands of boys and girls, and now seemed to be quite willing to turn away while the attacks begin again with a intensity, remembering that this will not bring peace. this is the endgame. get the children who are held hostage somewhere, in the torment, get them home, but bring peace to the region. the more attacks, the more polarized everyone, is the more angry, the more frustrated, and the further we move. and so i guess if ali, i can say one thing, it's empathy. i met a girl three days ago, she's 20, she studied in the states. she wants to be a doctor. she said, mara, she said i dream of being a surgeon, i dreamed of being in a world where a doctor doesn't have to do surgery without anesthetics. i dream of a world where doctor won't see patients die because there's no electricity, where it's about helping people, not burying people. and she ended by saying, but i hear my dream is not possible. that is what i want people to understand. the potential of the young people here is extraordinary. the literacy, extraordinary. they are being killed. >> james, thank you. thank you for taking time for being with us again. stay safe, keep those around you safe, because that's what you do. james elder for unicef, joining us now from gaza. up next, we will dive into the bombshell report that israeli intelligence knew of hamas's attack planned more than a year before it took place. the new york times reporter broke the story, they join me in just a moment. you are watching velshi on msnbc. this week we learned new details about the extent to which israel may have known about hamas's preparations for the october 7th terror attack long before it actuay ok place. an explosive report from the new york times lays out how is really fischel's had advance knowledge of hamas's attack plans for over a year before the brutal assault. according to the times report published thursday, israeli military and intelligence officials obtained access to a 40-page battle plan code named jericho wall. the document outlined a detailed an attack on southern israeli communities exactly like the invasion that took place on october 7th. now it remains entirely unclear whether israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu was briefed on its contents or even new of its existence. these really military has declined to comment directly about the new york times report, which goes on to say that israeli officials dismissed the plan as, quote, aspirational. that dismissal would result in one of the worst -- most in african intelligence failures in the country's history. joining me now is ronan bergman, a staff writer for the new york times who was one of those reporters who broke the story. he's also the author of the book rise and kill first, the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations. ronan, it's good to see you, thank you for being with us. you have -- your excellent reporting states of the israeli military knew about this reporting for over a year but considered it too difficult for hamas to carry out. now i know you understand, that because on october 7th, when we were killing it -- covering at this morning, this is a hamas where their rockets and up inside of the fence. this look like too sophisticated and for hamas to be able to carry out, but that is for guys like me who do not know anything about this. the issue here is that this was the israeli intelligence unit. >> hi, ali. this was too sophisticated for israel to believe that hamas can execute. first of all, they had a victory. they had a plan, and the comparison between that plan from more than a year ago from 2022, the first -- sorry, the last updated version, as they start to plan attack in 2012 and continue to update and include more and more intelligence about israel, when you read that plan, around 40 pages, you can be only amazed, first of all, on the extent of the intelligence that hamas was able to collect on israel. some of the details there as far as i understand cannot be taken, not from social media, and not from open sources. not from commercial satellite, and not even if hamas was able to recruit one of the leaders or the -- that came from gaza to work in a israeli coup seem. it is not this kind of information. it clearly indicates that somewhere, and somehow, there is a possible seriously big leak inside of the rink of the israeli defense establishment. so that is the first. and then the way that this intelligence is detailed into a meticulous plan, how to break the fence, defenses that were erected two or three years ago, and were considered to be invincible those many meters above ground and 100 meters below ground, all of the tunnels, but in this plan, hamas is not even trying to dig tunnels. just storming the fence in 60 different pl so throughout the front with almost 2000 gunman, 2000, and the israelis believe that hamas can only execute. two platoons and two places with, at most, 70 gunmen. so you see the gap between what israel believed hamas can do and what israel believed hamas is trying to do or -- they called this plan, jericka walt, a compass for building this and not represent current capability. >> let's talk about that for a second, because in any intelligence unit in any country, and israel is more advanced quite possibly this unit, 8200, is possibly the most advanced signals intelligence unit on the planet. and in a unit, there would be discussions about, is this real or is this fake? is this aspirational or is this operational? and there was that discussion, it sounds, like within the israeli military and israeli intelligence. why did it go the wrong way? why did those who said, we think this is real, not get listened to? >> so the first event is obtaining jericho wall in 2022. and then in july 6th of this year, so three and a half months ago, just before the war, a veteran analysts working on closed surveillance, trying to understand hamas's new battle tactics, from one of the basis of 8 to 100, that is equivalent to -- the as you indicated, ali, detailing a new exercise, a new drill that was just conducted by hamas, and she uses the words, crazy, madness, i've never seen anything like this in the details, and the forces, and how advanced was this exercise. now that exercise was a dry exercise, it didn't really shoot, but it is about crossing the fence into israel, taking control of a kibbutz, putting a flag on this imaginary kibbutz and then rating a military cadet and killing all of the cadets there. while doing that, according to that exercise, they're able to take out and israeli aircraft and an israeli helicopter. this was the exercise. and then when that veteran intelligence spent years monitoring hamas writes that memo, the intelligence officer of the southern command right back and he says, this is pure gold. you work is wonderful, however, i would advise us to differentiate what hamas can do and what hamas does for show off. what you described is the scenario for the exercise is purely imagination. and there was a little bit of chauvinism, maybe hubris, maybe paternalism, but she explodes back and she says, no, this is not imagination. this is not even a plan for a raid. this is a plan for war, and it is real. and unfortunately, the whole discussion with her colleagues supporting her and other people stayed within the capsule of a 200 southern command intelligence. it did not go out of the circle. you know, we know how it is. >> we know how it ended. ronen, your voice been a great friend of our show, but i'm reminded at times like this that you are much more important than a friend, you are a remarkable journalist, thank you for you and your colleagues very, very important reporting on this. ronen bergman it's a staff writer for the new york times magazine, and he is the author of the book rise and kill first, the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations. we will have more velshi in a moment. stay with us. try nervive. and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ ♪♪ nothing like a real tree. ♪♪ oh, fudge!!! oh, fudge!!! ♪♪ the holidays are joy, except for all the snow, slush, salt, and pine needle catastrophes... weathertech's cargoliners and floorliners are laser-measured to perfectly protect the front, back, and even up the sides. order the perfect holiday gift today at weathertech.com and don't forget weathertech gift cards. i have often explained why books make a lasting cultural impact during different meetings of the velshi banned book club. their words, their subject matter, or because of the author. today's feature, the bell jar, by sylvia platte is another immense example of all three. it is every bit the monitored classic it is hailed as for a sharp, visceral, writing. a first of its kind exploration of mental health and its author who looms large or even then her magnum opus. do not miss this meeting of the velshi banned book club. you are watching velshi. hing velshi. (mom) please forgive him. (carolers) ♪ it's all good - just a little awkward. ♪ (soloist) think we'll wrap this up. (vo) for a limited time, turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. that's up to $1700 in value. only on verizon. to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. one of the largest population movements in american history started in 1910. it was known as the great migration. it saw nearly 6 million black americans moved from the south to north and western in midwestern states fleeing the racial violence and terrorism of jim crow. if you just follow the railways and highways out of this as you can see where they landed. cities like oakland, chicago, milwaukee, cleveland, detroit, baltimore, and new york city. those who migrated arrived at their destinations they learned that these places are not free of racism or prejudice either. a new documentary produced by hbo argues that the only way for black americans to, quote, lift the burden of white supremacy, and a quote, is by carrying out yet another great migration but this time in reverse. roe argues that if black people moves on math to the south pacific states with already high black populations that can become the majority in the state and maximize their political capital. one of the states charles visits and his explanation of this idea is north carolina which currently has a black population of 23%. >> people talk about north carolina as the new georgia. the possibility it could be the new georgia. it has a lot of the ingredients. black business creation is thriving. black ownership is thriving. black people are thriving. there is a lot of inflow of reversed migrants into north carolina, a lot of policies, a lot of energy around politics. obama carried north carolina in 2008. you could say the flame things start to develop. getting more black people moving back to the state of north carolina. the activists on the ground organized them into a powerful voting bloc. >> north carolina is just one example that you talked about. after a quick break, we will dive into the premise of the film, south to black power, streaming right now on max. also joining us will be the democratic state representative, justin jones of tennessee. velshi is coming right back. is coming right back. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do 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rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. i'm trying to find a way we can lift the burden off the shoulders of black people, of white supremacy. >> what if we skip over all that hoping? what if we skip over all the pleating, begging, marching, and shouting and go straight to the power? during the great migration 6 million blackwell left the south for cities in the north and west. i suggest that black people return to the states with the highest percentage is already black people where they can gain political power. >> if we are going to make a go the, the south makes a lot of sense. >> as a trailer for a new hbo documentary, south the black power which explores the idea of a reverse great migration arguing the black americans should return to southern states that already have large black populations in order to increase political power. i'm joined now by the writer and political producer of the film, and our friend, charles blow an msnbc political analyst, a columnist for the new york times, and author of the bestselling book, the w. no. a black power manifesto. on which this documentary is based. we are also joined by another great friend of the show, a friend of democracy, justin jones. democratic state representative in tennessee who represents district 52 which surround nashville. gentlemen, good to see you thank you for being with us. charles, let's start with you. writer and executive producer of the show. that is a big ask. you are asking black americans after decades and decades of having moved to the north to say, think about going back to the south. you can tip the balance in some of the states. have real political power. and make change. how did you arrive at this thesis? you are a guy who has thought about this a lot, wrote about it a lot. how did you get to this one, because it is big? >> first i would like to say this, it is not as big of an ask as you think because it is already happening. without me saying a word. i'm just trying to encourage more of it. the reverse migration is already a thing that black people are engaged in. i look at it this way. half of the power in the country as allocated by the constitution is reserved for the states. a lot of the things that black people care most about, things that touch their lives the most, are controlled on the state level. that is everything from mass incarceration, how the criminal code is written, education, health care, whatever. what we see across the country is that even when states, legislatures, are liberal a vast majority of issues including everything from gay rights to environmental policy, that doesn't always align with racial egalitarianism and the protection of black people in the equality of black people, even in those states. so, i want to see a situation where black people have more access to that state power the way that they did have it during reconstruction when three straight storming already black and three others were very close to being so. >> representative jones nice to see you. we crossed past in the united nations -- nice to have you on the show. let's reveal a little bit. you are born in oakland, you have roots in chicago. you represent a district in tennessee. the numbers in tennessee for black population are not as high as some of the charles or talking about but. you have capitalized on the idea that a whole lot of people who moved to tennessee, including to nashville where you are. a lot of people from the north have decided lifestyles better there. they decide to go. they're a lot of non black people, why not black people? >> it is good to see you again, my friend. this book, and the documentary, offer a very powerful thesis. my family left west tennessee to go to chicago, fleeing the terrorism in the violence of jim crow. eventually moving to oakland, and san francisco. i came back here to attend a historically black college, siskiyou never say die, where now i teach. another thing that charles said -- so goes the south, as goes the nation. whether or not we see this large exodus of black people returning to the south, we know that the south will be pivotal in key in the future of this nation. this is a choice between mass enfranchisement and mass disenfranchisement. it's a state that recognizes justice or is beholden to white supremacy. -- the fascism that we saw on monday when they explore the two youngest black lawmakers. i think that the south is a powerful space. although i am based in tennessee i spent the past few months traveling the south, talking about this idea that the south will rise a new. travel to south carolina, texas, north carolina, extending this movement from democracy. i know the south a nation forward that respects human rights and dignity, particularly those who have been denied so long in this nation. >> charles, let's talk about north carolina or where you are right now in georgia. or louisiana, where you are from. right now inin many cases you he supermajority republican legislatures, like you have in tennessee. but, in some cases, democratic statewide officials. in other words, more people voted for a democrat statewide ban managed to two at a state level just because the way gerrymandering works. tell me about that. at some point do you get to the point where you can change a place like tennessee? some of representative joe's people on the other side of him on the republican side don't even run against a candidate, it is so gerrymandered. >> the thing that i keep my eye on is what he said, a statewide races. right now, like in the state of georgia, you have two senators elected by coalition, led by black people. that's the first time this happened in american history, by the way. those people want to washington, right? they do not stay in the state to do the state business. they can advocate on behalf of the state in washington. there is another polar, another domino that has to fall, which is governor seats. what governors allow you to do is to have veto power over what legislatures can do. it is a safe guard, a bull word against the worst impulses of a legislator. and then on top of that is important to remember this is about important because this is what is happening in georgia. the more black people who come to georgia or the back population in georgia has doubled for that two 90 from 4.7 million to 3.9 million black people. it has become harder and harder and harder to draw a majority white or majority republican district because they're just too many people. what you see happening is the judiciary will, at some point say, you just can't do this. this is what they've done alabama, what they've done in louisiana. you cannot do this! there are too many of these black people. you have to give them representation in a district that allows them to go for people who look like them or who they want to elect. >> representative jones, the state house and the idea of controlling state government's central ultimately to charles's argument. i have got to tell you, in all my years i didn't know much about the tennessee legislature. you were the first person to say, oh my god, who is this guy? what is going on? -- in the end, the state houses are where some of this damage is most done. that is where most of the repairs going to have to come from. >> the state houses are the frontline of preserving democracy in this nation. in fact, here nationally we just had a gathering of hundred black lawmakers across the nation, from alaska to alabama, for the national black caucus of legislators met in nebraska this week. we talked about the idea of the legislature being this bulwark against the extremism. i said in tennessee, this is where we are passing laws that are under funding public education, attacking the books or children can read, this is a state where we are proliferating and mass incarceration. tennessee, even though only 16% of the population in terms of black voters, one of five black men cannot vote because of felony disenfranchisement. they are terrified multiracial democracy. they are terrified of this black political power. in fact, this is a state that is the birthplace of the kkk movement, meant to stop black political power and some people like me from being in these provisions. i'm here in the kabul office right now. i think it is so critical to lift up a state legislature. i am the first non-white male to represent this district, the -- state in nashville, the most district in the state of tennessee. we've been able to shift in force conversations on things like common sense gun laws. things like racial justice and reparations. environmental challenges, those narratives that they would rather not talk about. i think it is critical if we want to change the nation we cannot ignore state houses. this is where they have invested in terms of their extremism. this is where we can build a new south and really revive democracy in this nation. >> just those words that he said on the show, i'm here in my capitol office right now, it tells you something might be going in the right direction. guys, thank you so much. a really appreciate this. representative jones, always a pleasure to see you. charles, always a pleasure to see you my friend. thank you to both of you. thank you for the documentary. charles blow writer and producer of the new hbo documentary called, south to black power streaming now on max. justin jones the democratic state representative from tennessee. both great friends of the show. coming, up a pair of explosive new federal rulings to clear that donald trump is not immune from criminal prosecution, nor from civil liability for his role in the january 6th riots. and today's meeting of the velshi banned book club, we are going to explore a novel which, for decades, has become a right of passage for women around the country. i am talking about sylvia plaid's magnum opus, the belgian.