janis mackey frayer, nbc news. >> can't blame him. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hey, everyone, it is 4:00 in new york. i'm alicia menendez in for nicole wallace. no shortage of news both here at home and abroad. the truce between israel and hamas has come to an end after seven days that saw hostages released by hamas, prisoners released by the israeli government, and a steady flow of humanitarian aid into gaza. on capitol hill, new york republican george santos became the sixth person in american history to be expelled from congress. we begin with a new ruling from a federal appeals court that ex-president donald trump can be sued in relation to the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. rejecting his bid for sweeping presidential immunity against civil claims. trump's team had previously argued that almost all of his conduct was protected while he was still an incumbent esident. including on january 6th. and that this should shield him from lawsuits. but in their unanimous ruling, a three-judge panel concluded that "the president does not spend every minute ofvery day exercising official responsibilities. and when he acts outside the functions of his office, he does not continue to enjoy immunity from damages liability just because he happens to be the president. when he acts in an unofficial private capacity, he's subject to civil suits." the ruling stemmed from a suit brought by a capitol police officer injured in the riot and at least ten other suits like it have been filed by law enforcement officers and lawmakers. although the ruling rejects trump's immunity claim, it does leave room open to prove that on january 6th, he was acting in his official capacity. with this extremely consequential ruling's impact on multiple other legal fronts for the ex-president, it is expected that his team will appeal it, potentially to the supreme court. and that is where we start this hour with former top official at the department of justice, andrew weissmann. from "the new york times," congressional reporter luke broadwater is here. and former chairman at the rnc, michael steele. friends, it is good to see you all. andrew, help us understand this new ruling, the impact it could have on trump's myriad legal cases. >> well, everyone's eye is not so much on this case, but on the criminal case in washington, d.c., because the allegations in that case revolve around what the former president did in his last days in office. so, it's unrelated, for instance, to the florida case where it deals with conduct after he was in office. so, everyone's focusing on whether there was presidential immunity for the d.c. criminal case, and alicia, as you said, the case today came up in connection with a civil case and by its terms, it says it does not deal with a claim with respect to criminal immunity, but having said that, the tea leaves reading here seems pretty strong that the former president is going to not prevail either in the district court or in the court of appeals in d.c. so that his, really, remaining shot for presidential immunity is the supreme court, and that seems like a really long shot in this case. >> and i promise we'll get to the supreme court in just a second, but andrew, juso underline what you said there about the criminal case out of d.c., "the washington post" writing, "the question of whether such immunity applies to trump's federal criminal case in d.c. still needs to be weighed by u.s. district court judge tonya s. chutkan." what is your sense of when we can hear from judge chutkan? >> i hate to use the term imminently, because fani willis used that famously in georgia in january, but we didn't get an indictment until the summer, but i think that judge chutkan quite rightly was waiting to see if this decision would come down and provide guidance, because she is a district court judge in the same circuit so that she is going to be bound by any decision that comes from the circuit. so, having said all that, the answer to your question is, i would think that we could expect a decision next week. she understands that this is the decision. the presidential immunity decision in her case is the one that will certainly go to the circuit, and it may go to the supreme court, and if there's one thing that could derail the march 4th date that she said is set in stone, it's that appeal process. so, she is going to have every incentive to really get her decision out, but obviously, she's going to digest the work today of the circuit court in the civil case. >> luke, andrew's use of imminently brings back warm memories of how politicos, judges and jrnalists all have different definitions of that word. when you say, next week,rew, i will take that as imminent. "t new york times" wring, "if judge chutkan rules against the immunity claims and mr. trump's lawyers challenge her decision, they will likely have to make a detailed finding to the appeals court that his efforts to overturn the outcome in 2020 were not undertaken as part of his re-election campaign but rather in his official role as chief executive." luke, any sense of how it would be that trump's lawyers would try to make that case? ump's law try to make that case? >> sure, yeah, i mean, well, they're trying broadly to have everything he did surrounded by january 6th covered as part of his official duties that he knts be sued for them. you know, clearly, the argument here on the capitol -- on the part of these capitol police officers, who i know and have interviewed, and talk about the great trauma that they went through on january 6th, is that donald trump is to blame, that he wasn't covered by presidential immunity, that he was acting outside his normal duties as president when he amassed a mob on the capitol and sent them into the building, inspired by his words, and they ended up attacking 150 police officers. the one officer in question, officer blasingame, he was called racist slurs, repeatedly, according to his account. he had to fight for his life. he didn't know if he would make it home that day. he still has long-lasting effects from the events of january 6th. and he believes that donald trump put those events in motion and should be held civilly liable for them, and so today's ruling was a victory -- a temporary victory, a small victory, but a victory nonetheless for those officers who are seeking some form of justice from donald trump. >> right. michael, i take andrew's point that most people's eyes are not trained on this specific case, but rather on many of the other cases that we're watching with donald trump. i also take luke's point that there were real individuals who were impacted by what donald trump did on january 6th and the days leading up to january 6th. several of those capitol police officers who were injured, they have given raw, emotional testimony to congress. take a listen. >> they continue to be a constant trauma for us, literally every day. whether because our physical or emotional injuries or both. >> i've been left with the psychological trauma and the emotional anxiety of having survived such a horrific event. and my children continue to deal with the trauma of nearly losing their dad that day. >> january 6th still isn't over for me. i have had to avail myself of multiple counseling sessions from the capitol police assistance program, and i am now receiving private counseling therapy for the persistent emotional trauma of that day. >> michael, there's the collective trauma that we as a nation have experienced at the hands of donald trump, and there's that very individual trauma that those officers and their families have experienced. how important is it that they be allowed a legal mechanism to hold those responsible to account? >> i think it's extremely important, and i think it's something that in the main, the american people want to see made available to those police officers, because they watched it. american citizens watched this thing unfold. they saw flag poles being shoved into the faces of police officers. they saw barricades being lifts and thrown at them. they watched police officers get beat and squeezed almost to a lifeless state after -- in between doors. being jammed up and objects thrown at them. we watched this. so, the idea that there is no recourse available to them, there's no way in which they can receive justice, remunative or otherwise, as a consequence of their service, i think it's important for the american people, and i think this ruling today says that in a very significant way. i took a step back and after looking at this and said, the court just painted a very interesting box here by saying that the president, in any 24-hour period, is not acting in his official capacity all the time. all right? then you have trump and meadows and others saying they did act in their official capacity. so, from a political standpoint, i'm saying, okay, so, if you take the official capacity argument and that's what you were doing, all the more reason why your behind should be nowhere near the oval office in 2024. right? because you -- in your official capacity, you tried to overthrow the government and wounded police officers serving in the defense of the capitol in that process. so, it's an interesting box that the court, i think, has set up. i'm looking, again, from a political standpoint that in an analysis standpoint, could be very intriguing in the argument that they want to make, because both are problematic. one is a civil lane that's opened up, and a political lane also is open more broadly. >> right, which is that it is an abuse of your actual power. andrew, to this point, we've been talking about trump's official capacity as president, but in the ruling, the judges said that trump is not protected as a presidential candidate either, writing, "when a first-term president opts to seek a second term, his campaign to win re-election is not an official presidential act. the office of the presidency, as an institution, is agnostic about who will occupy it next. and campaigning to gain that office is not an official act of the office." it seems like an important distinction to make there, andrew. >> absolutely. that -- what you just pointed out is the heart of the decision. it is that language that is going to be latched on to by the government in the judge chutkan case to say that is why there is no criminal presidential immunity in that case. the court had the distinction between the official actions -- i'm reading that from the decision -- the official actions of an office holder rather than the unofficial actions of an office seeker. and what the court said, as you pointed out, is you can be an office seeker and be the current president seeking a new term, or you could be somebody who was voted out of office, as was the former president, who's now seeking to be elected again. in either situation, you have to distinguish the conduct and the role that they're in, and everyone can understand that -- with respect to the criminal case and what happened in the lead-up to january 6th, that was all in connection with the former president's desire to stay in office, to win the election that he actually lost. so, i think that this really bodes very well for the government, both in the district court and in the circuit court, that is, the court of appeals based on this decision today. >> luke, i want to loop back to something that andrew said at the start of this conversation, which is that this will likely be appealed to the supreme court. walk us through, then, what happens next. >> sure, yeah, i mean, i'm sure donald trump and his lawyers are hoping that, you know, the justices he appointed on the supreme court will be friendly to him in his appeal. that said, to date, they have not really been surrounding his efforts around january 6th and his various attempts to undermine the democratic process. to date, the supreme court has not sided with donald trump on those efforts. he tried to fight certain actions of the january 6th committee, and those were not honored by the supreme court. i don't know what will happen here again, but to date, even the, you know, trump-appointed justices on the supreme court have not sided with him in these cases. >> michael, to go back to your core frame here, which is there's a legal pathway, a political pathway, one of the difficulties in talking about all of this with all these appeals that affect one another is that time is of the essence here. we are running out of time before the 2024 election and cannot deny that fact. >> can't. and that process is going to unfold for the court and for the american people simultaneously. and so, the question is going to be, from a voter standpoint, how do they integrate that court process, whether it's, you know, the d.c. case, the georgia case, whatever it happens to be, into their political calculations as those narratives are unfolding, because donald trump is going to be sitting there, you know, like, you know, just ramming us with his narratives around this process is why he should be president. right? in other words, this corrupt process is coming after me. make me president again so i can stop it. well, you ain't stopping it from me, bro. i'm not the one who's tied up in the judicial system. they're not coming after me. they're coming after you. but he's going to make it such that everything that they decide impacts him negatively unless he gets a very favorable ruling otherwise. as a reason that the political process should unfold a certain way. that, however, should not, except for maybe in the instance of judge aileen cannon, my opinion, who seems to be favorably disposed to trump, i don't think the legal process is going to care too much of how that political side plays itself out, which, again, dynamically, puts trump in a very, very ticklish position. >> andrew, i saw you at points laughing and nodding along with michael. i'll give you the last word. >> well, just to what michael is saying is actually being argued right now in georgia in connection with that georgia criminal case where the d.a. had asked to have the case start in august, and donald trump's lawyers are arguing in court that it should not because of, if he is the nominee, that will be right in the heart of his campaign. the judge did ask an interesting question, which is, is he planning on attending all of the trial and really being here? how much will it really affect his campaigning? that was quite interesting. there was kind of a waffle of an answer that didn't really commit one way or the other, but that very issue of the overlap of the political sphere and the criminal sphere is something that is palpable, particularly on this very day. >> andrew weissmann and luke broadwater, as always, thank you both so much for getting us started. michael steele, you are sticking with me. when we come back, it took a year, but the fraud that followed george santos around from day one on capitol hill has finally caught up with him. the united states house of representatives expelled him from the job, no thanks to house gop leadership, with every single one trying to keep him. plus, lawyers for trump on another case in court today, face-to-face with fulton county prosecutors for the first time. the ex-president's team trying to get those charges thrown out. and later in the program, israel and hamas have restarted the fighting in gaza. the very latest on that and an explosive new piece of reporting that israel knew hamas was planning a wide-scale assault more than a year ago. the reporter on that byline joins us. e reporter on that byl joins us nergy in just two weeks. -ahh, -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein 30 grams protein, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. 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>> well, honestly, i'm really proud of the u.s. house. i think this is an important moment for both democrats and republicans to do the right thing. it also tells me that this can be a place about truth and about justice. i'm really heartened by how many republicans actually joined our efforts to ensure that we got rid of someone that has no business being in congress. remember, nine months ago, when we first brought forward that first expulsion resolution, there were a few people that were supporting us, and we pushed it really hard. we got them enand forced kevin mccarthy to do the investigation. we hounded that committee to make sure a report would be published and that report really drove this bipartisan vote to get it done. so, certainly, it is a solemn day. it's not -- no one's here because we want to expel members of the house, but he had no business -- his lies and his cons are over. >> congressman, as much as you're talking about george santos, we are talking about the institution. you used two words i want to pick up on that you used in your floor sec truth and justice are crucial components of the healthy and strong democracy. it speaks to the public trust we hold and the dignity of the institution. talk to me, if you will, about the impact of the santos episode on congress. >> well, i think part of it also stems from what george santos represents. there's a direct connection, i believe, between the election of donald trump, his attack on our institutions, his lies, the way that he has debased our very system of government, and for someone like george santos to be allowed to be in congress and to serve. and so, a lot of us are here, me in particular, i'm here because i want to ensure that we have a democracy to protect. we're here to ensure that truth, that justice, that integrity actually matters in the house of representatives and in government. and so, george santos was the opposite of that. he's this creation of this new extreme far-right maga movement that is focused on lies and not telling the truth and trying to really put our institutions backwards. in some cases, try to destroy what we know as our democracy. and so, taking on george santos was really important, i think, for the house. i am very did appointed that the speaker and the republican leadership chose to vote against his expulsion, yet so many of their members actually went forward and did the right thing. i think that says a lot about his leadership, his moral center, and how he's going to govern the house in the future. >> michael steele, i want you to pick up on this point. both your sense of why several republicans finally came around on this and why there was this fissure between membership and leadership. >> i don't know if there was so much of a fissure as sort of a reality check that you couldn't hold the numbers. i think if they could hold the numbers, george santos would still be in the congress, why? because up to that point, they were able to hold the numbers. there were no -- there were no serious efforts to get rid of him before now, and i appreciate the congressman's leadership in sort of holding the mirror up to the house and saying, this is what we look like with this guy here. are you prepared to take that, carry that forward in furthering weakening the institution of congress? and i thought that was a very powerful argument for the congressman to make. but the reality on the republican side was they don't give a rat's patoot about any of that. it wasn't about the institution. it was about how they control the house and how long they could control it in that one seat, particularly given the one vote that he represents, as you said at the beginning, alicia. now the numbers could shrink to a three-seat majority in the house. so, the politics was more animating here than any call to conscience about george santos. i mean, marjorie taylor greene and lauren boebert are still in the house, folks. >> well, let me pick up on that point, michael. i've only got about a minute left and i want to bring in the congressman before we go. congressman, what does it say that they held santos responsible? when will they do the same for their colleagues who were instrumental in an attempted coup? >> i mean, i think that's absolutely right. obviously, george santos is emblematic of the real cancer that's in the far-right republican party right now but there's so much more work to do, and there's so much work in this house, particularly for our party, for my party, to stand up and stand for democracy every single time. we cannot allow folks like marjorie taylor greene, like lauren boebert, like matt gaetz lie, cheat, try to steal an election, and it's up to us to stand up every single time and call them out. this, hopefully, is also a direct call to everyone in this body to remember that honesty counts, integrity counts, and we've got an eye on everyone, making sure we're going to do everything we can to keep the integrity here, not just here but all across government. >> congressman robert garrett garcia, you told me this weekend that you thought you had the votes and indeed you did. when we come back, all she did was uphold her oath to the constitution and for it, liz cheney got kicked out of congress, becoming a primary target of donald trump in the process. now, unchained, she is telling the world exactly what happened behind closed doors, issuing a dire new warning. happened behind closed doors, issuing a dire new warning what was it like before viasat satellite internet? two words: not fun. times up. sharing's caring! but now with viasat's new plans, we have plenty of internet. for everyone! learn more about our plans at viasat.com that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. godaddy. you know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? i don't. cascade platinum plus has me doing dishes... differently. scrub? soak? nope. i just scrape, load and i'm done. only platinum plus is bigger. with double the dawn grease fighting power and double the scrubbing power. for a no rewash clean... and a cabinet ready shine. rewash? not in my house. upgrade to cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. in our country, we don't swear an oath to an individual or a political party. we take our oath to defend the united states constitution. and that oath must mean something. tonight, i say this to my republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible. there will come a day when donald trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain. >> simple and direct, a warning to her republican colleagues, sever yourselves from donald trump now or bear the crushing weight of damning scrutiny from generations of americans hence. two months after that moment, liz cheney was voted out of office, appropriately conceding defeat to a trump-endorsed republican. since then, cheney's been open and honest about her former colleagues, but never quite like this. her new memoir, due out next week, offers a brand-new inside glimpse from her unique own perspective. one of the most tumultuous moments in american history. "the new york times" points to one section having to do with how she was treated after voting for impeachment. the gop meetings, some of the party's men told her they didn't like her tone, that she wasn't contrite enough for breaking with the party. "representative mike kelly of pennsylvania made a memorable analogy in describing how betrayed he felt. it's like you're playing in the biggest game of your life and you look up and you see your girlfriend sitting on the opponent's side," he complained. several astonished women in the conference started yelling, she's not your girlfriend. liz cheney agreed. yeah, she said, i'm not your girlfriend. the book goes further than anecdotes, serves as another warning for the american people about donald trump himself. here's what she told cbs news. >> you say donald trump if he is re-elected, it will be the end of the republic. what do you mean? >> he's told us what he will do. it's very easy to see the steps that he will take. people who say, well, if he's elected, it's not that dangerous, because we have all of these checks and balances don't fully understand the extent to which the republicans in congress today have been co-opted. one of the things that we see happening today is a sort of sleepwalking into dictatorship in the united states. >> joining our conversation, president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" here on msnbc, reverend al sharpton. michael steele is also back with us. rev, sleepwalking into a dictatorship. do you buy that? >> i think that we are, which is why many of us need to be putting out these alarm bells to wake people up that are sleeping, because i think that what is so frightening is this is dick cheney's daughter. we're not talking about somebody that was a liberal or far left or even moderate. this is dick cheney's daughter saying, wake up here. we are on our way into an autocracy, and we are doing it with no resistance. imagine people reprimanding her for standing up for corruption -- against corruption, and when you look, as you have done on the show this evening, when you look at santos and cheney, that's the polar opposites of having moral standards in american politics. >> i want to read you more. fox ne ht brian kilmead said she needed to bury the hatchet with mr. trump. trump tried to overturn an election, she said. he violated his oath to the constitution. mr. kilmead did not deny that. i know, she called him saying, but what if he is our only hope to beat kamala. a person close to kilmead said he was trying to bring down the heat. >> it tells me that's going to be part of what they try in this election. they're going to try to play on racism and misogyny, because the hidden message in that is a black woman is going to be president if we don't do this. i think that it will backfire, because they need the news flash. we elected and re-elected a black man president, and we did a lot better under his presidency than under donald trump. so, they're playing from an old playbook that is outdated, but they don't know that. but i think that will be a tactic. i think what kilmead was quoted as saying is a forecast of where they are going to try to say, we're not really running against the old guy. they're trying to paint him, that's not working. we're running against the black woman, and i think that won't work either. >> you layer on to that, michael steele, the anecdote that i was just sharing where one of our colleagues compares her to a girlfriend from the stands when, in reality, it's like, she is the captain of your team. you don't seem to be understanding the power and the way she's situated so there's the misogyny and sexism based in there. there's also what we are hearing about how different republicans, you heard the same thing from mitt romney, how they act in private, what they're willing to say in private, and what it is that they are willing to say in public, and of course, the question has always been, what would it take for them to have the strength, the moral compass, the courage to say all of that out in the open? >> nothing. there's no upside. there's no political points that they gain from doing that. there's only penalties. and they will be very quick to cite to you liz cheney and adam kinzinger and peter major and others who voted for impeachment who are no longer there. and who, in some instances, like liz, were summarily drummed out of the party, although that doesn't mean jack. you can't stop someone from being a republican if they're a republican just because, you know, the central committee said. but that's not the point. the point is the symbolism of the act. and that's what the messaging is received by those who whisper in quiet corners applauding me and liz and others to continue saying what you're saying. you're right. right? but they're not willing to take that step, because they value the office, the power, the position more than the piece of paper written 250 years ago that said, what this democracy should stand for, and that as part of that, the oath they take reaffirms that. that's what liz was trying to point out to them. dude, you took an oath. these words defended this democracy and this piece of paper, and yet you're willing to value the party and the power over the principles that are aligned here, so there's nothing at this point, alicia, that can be said, written, encouraged or demanded in which any of them would stop whispering and get in front of a bank of microphones and declare openly their freedom from trump and trumpism. >> there's another anecdote in the book, michael, that i just love where basically, you know, pelosi's staff was like, are you really sure you want to have liz cheney be a member of this committee? they hand her a list of the things that liz chaen has said about her in the past few months, and pelosi basically says, stop wasting my time. we're doing this. and it's a reminder of how bipartisanship is supposed to function, right? there's supposed to be room for that, and when we talk about all the norms that have been broken, when we talk about the fact that republicans value party and power over their oath to office, that is part of it, right? it shouldn't be that proximity to democrats is so toxic in your mind that you're not able to do the very basic functioning of what you have been sent there by your constituents to do. >> absolutely. and you know, the former speaker understood that. she got it. she knew what this moment required. she knew what she was about to set in motion, demanded of her, not necessarily just liz or any of the republicans but of her as the speaker of the house who was pushing the body in this direction to investigate what happened on january 6th. so, when the staff was all political, well, you know liz said this about you, she was, like, so? that's not the point in this moment. and she understood that. >> that's not the point because she understood what the point was. now, no one is going anywhere, but before we head to break, this is a perfect reminder. nicole is going to be back this tuesday. she's going to be joined in studio for a special one-on-one interview with liz cheney. it is all about her new book, "oath and honor." you are not going to want to miss that. that is tuesday. one day, one day only. up next, well, it wasn't quite earth one or even earth two. a primetime debate between a republican presidential candidate and someone who, well, isn't running for president. we'll try and unpack why these two governors stood on stage last night for 90 minutes. ors se last night for 90 minutes. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. 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[ting] ♪♪ live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. there's one thing in closing that we have in common, it's neither of us will be the nominee for our party in 2024. joe biden will be our nominee in a matter of weeks, and in a matter of weeks, sean, he'll be endorsing donald trump as the nominee for the republican party. when are you going to drop out and at least give nikki haley a shot to take down donald trump in this nomination? >> that was democratic governor gavin newsom of california delivering hard truth to republican governor ron desantis of florida about his chances against donald trump in 2024. it was an assertion that desantis did not counter. despite their mutual interruptions of each other during the rest of the fiery debate over abortion, education, crime, immigration. which of them is the biggest bully and desantis's poor polling. as the only one on the stage actually currently running for president. newsom said he wanted to debate so he could talk about president biden's record as contrast to desantis's darkness and today's republican party. we are back with michael steele and reverend al sharpton. rev, what do you think? >> i looked at the clips, and the -- just the way that desantis carries himself is so underwhelming. i mean, you can't get past his lack of being able to perform, and you know, as one who were in presidential debates when i ran in 2004, this wasn't a presidential debate, but i've watched every presidential debate. i watched the clips of him with newsom. he just is not very good as a political performer. then, you go to his record as governor where he wants to ban everything from black history to lgbtq to women and he has the most right-wing, in my opinion, exclusionary governorship in the country. he and abbott running neck and neck there. so, the record is not there that would appeal nationally, and the performance is not there, so you wonder every time you look at him what is he doing on the stage? you can't beat ramaswamy in a debate. you shouldn't be up there. i think last night, he needed a knockout to bring himself back into at least people saying, oh, well, he's got some, you know, ability if he gets the nomination by some miracle. he did not not only get a knockout, he was wobbling a few times from being knocked out. >> right, to the contrary, michael steele, it was a great opportunity for him to practice how the humans smile. but if the point here was to draw a contrast where it was supposed to be about two visions of america, there was, in some ways, it seemed to me that the piece that was almost more effective was this question of donald trump's going to win, right? like talking about the actual field itself and the choice that ron desantis knows that he is making. >> okay. okay. i guess. i'm stuck on -- i'm stuck on the stupid part. what the hell are you doing on that stage debating a guy who's not running for president in the opposite party? i don't understand. i don't get that. what were you trying to prove? this was -- >> well, but answer that question for me, michael. because i think it's a good one. what do you think it was that he was trying to prove? >> i don't know. where's the -- who advised you that this was a good use of your time as the governor of florida running for the presidency against donald trump in a republican primary? gavin newsom was the only winner on that stage, because he profiled himself. i don't know how much he was profiling joe biden, but he definitely profiled himself, right? there's no downside for him, because he isn't running for anything. but on the other side, you have a guy who is, and i don't know how republicans in a republican primary would look at that and go, oh, yeah, this is the guy who's going to beat donald trump. i just don't -- i don't see where the math worked for him in this. why -- either in terms of money or votes. and so, i'm really kind of lost at that, at this notion, alicia, that as a republican candidate, that the real upside for me is to have a debate with a democrat who's not running for office, and even though it was hosted by fox and sean who's not running for office. and even though those hosted by fox and sean hannity, there were a number of moments where he got owned by newsom. he had no response or he had a tepid one, and again, just to the revs point proved the point, you're not ready to go up against donald trump, and you don't have the mechanisms, the tools to take him out because you couldn't beat the democrat, rhetorically or otherwise. so it was, i guess, good entertainment for somebody, but politically it advanced nothing. >> and, rev, i take your point you have desantis's record out of florida as a proof point how it is should he actually win the nomination, and become president. you layer on to that, he is now on record sort of making these appeals to republican primary voters that make him ineligible in a general election. >> it makes him ineligible, and it also, in terms of just straight political profile, hurts him if he thought that i'll make a good run here and go in '28 because when you think, if i was using boxing as an analogy, if you find a person has a glass jaw, just can't fight, it doesn't matter whether he's fighting the now champion or the future champion, he's got a glass jaw, and this guy can't take a punch, and he can't throw a punch. >> that's true. >> it's all about all of the sports analogies that i can do. reverend al sharpton. >> that was a good one. michael steele, thank you so much for spending some time with us. we'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. quick break we'll be right back. ♪♪ if you're on medicare, remember, the annual enrollment period is here. the time to choose your coverage begins october 15th and ends december 7th. so call unitedhealthcare and see how you can get more of what matters, with our broad range of plans including an aarp medicare advantage plan from unitedhealthcare. it can combine your hospital and doctor coverage with part d prescription drug coverage, and more, all in one simple plan. these plans are made to support your whole health with $0 annual physical exams, $0 lab tests and $0 preventive care like mammograms and colonoscopies. and you'll get more for your medicare dollar with $0 copays on most covered dental services a $0 eye exam and an allowance for eyewear plus $0 copays on hundreds of prescriptions, at the pharmacy or by mail. now's the time to look at unitedhealthcare's variety of plans. so give us a call to learn more about coverage options in your area. with our right plan promise, you have our commitment to helping you find the right plan for your needs. and to help make life with medicare simpler, you'll get the all-in-one member ucard. only from unitedhealthcare, the ucard is your unitedhealthcare member id and much more. show your ucard when you visit your primary care provider, dentist or eye doctor, or fill a prescription at the pharmacy. and use it to access medicare advantage's largest national network of providers. you can count on unitedhealthcare to help you get the care you need, when you need it. enrollment ends december 7th. now's the time to learn more about america's most chosen medicare advantage plans and how they can open doors to a simpler healthcare experience with the all-in-one ucard. call unitedhealthcare today about the only medicare advantage plans with the aarp name and get more of what matters to you. 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military promotions and increasing criticism from his own party, republican senator tommy tuberville is signaling that, quote, in the next week or so, he might let through some of the roughly 350 promotions he's held up so far. without specifying how many or which ones. with a perplexing sense of urgency, tuberville told reporters yesterday, that quote, we need to get them promoted. tuberville's hold in the widespread warnings about the national security mess, he has single handedly created is a story this show has been following closely, so we're going to see if there are any changes to his position next week. up next for us, the very latest on the fighting that has resumed in gaza after that seven-day cease fire. much more news still to come right after this very quick break. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare. we're determined to do everything we can to get everyone home, to get them reunited with their families, including pursuing the process that had worked for seven days. we had seven days of a pause, seven days of people coming home and being we united with their families. we have also been very clear that we support israel and its efforts to make sure that october 7th never happens again. we have also been very clear about the imperative of doing that in a way that puts a premium on protecting civilians and making sure that humanitarian assistance gets to those who need it. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. the seven-day truce between israel and hamas has ended, and fighting has resumed. the israeli government says rockets were launched from gaza overnight in the final minutes of the truce, and the prime minister's office claims hamas did not meet its obligation to release all of the women hostages, thereby violating the terms of the deal. during the seven-day truce, 105 hostages were released from hamas captivity, along with israel releasing 240 prisoners. international mediators are continuing discussions in qatar in the hopes of another breakthrough. as new alarming reporting in the "new york times" pulls the curtain back on israel's dismissal of previous intelligence it received about hamas's plan of attack. the times reports, according to documents, e-mails and interviews that israel obtained hamas's btle plan over a yea quote, the approximately 40-page document, which the iae authorities code named jericho wall outlined point by point exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people. the translated document, which was reviewed by "the new york times" did not set a date for the attack. it described a methodical assaulgnedo overwhelm the fortifications aroun t gaza strip, take over israeli cities and stormilitary bases, including a division headquarters. hamas followed the bluep with shocking precision. the document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras, and automated machine guns along the border and gunmen to pour into israel en masse on par gliders. it is unclear whether benjamin netanyahu or other top political leaders saw the document. in response to the reporting, israel's military said the idf is currently focused on eliminating the threat from the terrorist organization hamas, questions of this kind will be looked into in a later stage. the "times" reports on the environment in which the horrific attack occurred. underpinning these failures was a single, fatal inaccurate belief that hamas lacked the capability to attack and would not dare to do so. that belief was so ingrained in the israeli government, officials said, that they disregarded growing evidence to the contrary, and that is where we start this hour with staff writer for the "new york times," and author of "rise and kill first," ronen bergman, who shares a byline on the reporting. and senior national security analyst, john brennan, and former "washington post" jerusalem bureau chief, janine zakara. talk about your reporting. how was this possible? >> more than a year ago, israel was able to get to obtain a top secret hamas document that starts with a phrase from the koran, whoever goes through this gate surprisingly, so surprising the people, the enemy on the other side, allah, this phrase said, will bless. this is now part of the emblem of the operation that hamas used in every kind of publication, in every kind of video or announcement. this is around 40 pages of a detailed, meticulous plan, how to take down the front, the israeli front, how to break the fence, the fence that was considered to be invincible. how to destroy demolitions, fortification, and allow massive hamas forces to infiltrate israel. in a time when the israeli intelligence assessed that hamas can only deploy two platoons, up to 70 people, the plan was about almost 2,000 people in 60 different places. so not a raid but the full-scale invasion. people ask, how come the israelis who were with the superior hand, when taking this information, obtaining this document, didn't do anything with this. it's hard to explain. but the israelis saw this plan, not as a viable plan, they saw it as a dream plan. they call it a compass in one of the assessment documents, written about jericho. all the code names for the invasion. they call it a compass for a building of the force. so this is where hamas wants to be, not where hamas is at the current time. and the israelis believe that there's a gap, hamas is not capable of launching such a massive attack throughout the front. this is where they got deadly wrong, strategically wrong. leading to this catastrophe. >> deadly wrong, strategically wrong, director brennan, what alarms went off for you as you read this reporting? >> well, a lot of alarms. it is exceptionally rare to be able to obtain a copy of a detailed battle plan of your enemy, especially more than a year in advance of the attack, of the battle. so it demonstrates that israel did have access to these inner circles of hamas sometime in 2022. and they made a determination at that time, as ronen said, that this was beyond the capabilities of hamas, and at the time, it probably was. but the problem is that their analysis, their assessment remained static over the course of the last 12, 14, 15 months, however long. this plan should have driven israel's collection capabilities against hamas, to see whether or not hamas was making progress, realizing the aspirational qualities of this plan. they should have continued to take a look and see whether they could identify any indications that hamas was moving along the path of progressing on this plan. and clearly there were indications that they were, which is why in the reporting it says that an analyst, a few months ago, raised to the attention of senior israeli defense officials that they felt as though there were aspects of that plan that were being observed by israeli intelligence. so this was a break down of the system, but, again, it just demonstrates that israel had this opportunity more than a year ago to be able to leverage access to what hamas was planning but failed to do so in the last year plus. >> so director brennan, let me ask you a different question, if you were u.s. intelligence, and you know that your ally was given a copy of their opponent's battle plan and they ignored it, what risk does that pose? what challenges does that then pose for u.s. intelligence? >> well, first of all, given the close relationship between israel and u.s. intelligence agencies, i would have liked if i was still in the u.s. intelligence community to have been given access to that plan because then our analysts, our collection experts could have taken a look at whether or not we had anything in our files, in our data bases that could, in fact, give the israelis insight into whether or not hamas was able to realize these capabilities that they sought. it makes me wonder now about the systemic breakdown that existed within israeli intelligence. it's not just intelligence services, it's the military, and i don't know how high up it went within the israeli national security apparatus or policy makers, clearly there was a break down here that there was a complacency that set in, that there was a feeling that hamas was not going to go along the path because they had too much at stake with all the gazan residents that were going into israel and working and earning money, and bringing back into gaza. so there were faulty assumptions across the board that unfortunately, you know, contributed to the october 7th disaster. >> i want to pick up on something director brennan said there, which is this idea that we don't know if netanyahu was made aware of this, given this new reporting, given these questions of israeli intelligence of the israeli government, how is that change already shifts dynamics within israel? >> i mean, look, i think that, you know, it's a matter of the now right now. i mean, right now, prime minister netanyahu is very focused on the actual breakdown of the cease fire, what you had happen today, and ronen can talk more about the implications for the intelligence community and the day after and whatnot. there was earlier reporting prior to ronen's reporting that there was a young woman analyst, in the 8200 who was really pushing this, and some of the male counter parts were saying, oh, don't bother me with this. maybe there was some sexism in there as well, but i think at the moment what they're focused on in israel is really the breakdown in the release of the hostages. you had this nightly horrific ritual where you were waiting to see which ten israelis were going to be released from captivity, and now that's shifted to lists of people who have been murdered in captivity, the father, bibas who was shown in a hostage video where hamas is telling him that his wife and 10-month-old baby and 4-year-old son have been killed, and we don't know if that's true or not. right now, israel is so focused on what's happening at the moment and the seemingly inability now to continue with the hostage releases. that's really the top story there. >> ronen, the baseline reality remains true, as one of your analysts says in your piece. this was a plan to start a war. even if the plan had been foiled, was hamas's commitment to the objective still an inevitability and what would have been different if that had been reckoned with? >> those are two different measure failures that in a catastrophe way happened at the same time. israel was completely unable to assess hamas's intentions. they felt it's going in the right direction to have further deals through qataris between themselves, the exile, the leadership of hamas based in doha, and with sinwar himself, the leader of hamas in gaza. he was using this as a deception to make the israelis less sharp and make them believe that they can have, they can give more permits for gazans to come to work in israel, they will bring money to gaza, they will be connected or even dependent on that money. this will bring further days of quiet. hamas did not participate in the two last rounds. israel was fighting the islamic jihad. israel was under the impression that hamas can be contained, that hamas is deterred. the national security adviser for prime minister netanyahu, one of his close political allies, five days before the war says we believe we know hamas is deterred. hamas has learned a lesson from the previous round of hostilities. he understands hamas. what will happen for another case of defiance, and it clearly shows a total breakdown of all the necessary assessment procedures in israeli intelligence, and the second thing is total misunderstanding of hamas capabilities. you have the blueprint, but you say, no, they cannot do what they plan to do. this is something in the future, and the third mistake, the third failure was 2000 people practicing, exercising, military drills almost every day, and israel was not able to do connect the dots and say they are preparing for an assault, and then not enough intelligence coverage, open sources, to make, to discover that hamas is going to attack. it's a total collapse of different infrastructures of israeli intelligence. this flure will work with israeli intelligence for many many years torecover. >> director brennan, i want to read a little bit more from the times reporting. they write, the failures to connect the dots echoed another analytical failure more than two decades ago, when the american authorits also had multiple indications that the terrorist group al qaeda was preparing an assault. the september 11th, 2021, attacks on the world trade center and the pentagon were a failure of analysis and imagination, a government commission concluded. can you speak to that parallel? >> well, prior to 9/11, there were indications and intelligence that al qaeda was planning to carry out a major attack against u.s. interests, and in fact, the month before the 9/11 attacks, the cia was alerting the white house about something big was being planned. but we had no specificity about how they were going to do it, where, or when. what's the concern here is that the document that hamas had put together about this battle plan had tremendous specificity. and also, one of the things about ronen's story, it indicates that hamas had access to information about israel's security practices and capabilities outside of the gaza strip that were not available in public sources and so it really raises questions about hamas's intelligence collection capabilities against israel, so there are so many things here, a 40-page rich document that came from hamas itself. we didn't have an al qaeda document of similar detail of quality. we didn't have any document. we were picking up bits and pieces, those dots that we were trying to connect, and unfortunately, they weren't connected, but here, there was a game plan that hamas had, that israel had access to, which is why it should have driven israel intelligence, military security, activities over the next year or so to see whether or not there was anything that indicated that hamas was, again, gaining these capabilities, and following through on this battle plan to carry out this devastating attack against israel. >> i asked you about the dynamics against israel and you rightfully pointed me back to the hostages who are still in gaza and the energy around making sure that they return. what do we know about those who remain in gaza? >> yeah, we know from the idf spokesperson who briefed recently that there were 136 hostages that remain, including 17 women and children. and one of the reasons that the israelis cited for the breakdown in the cease fire was that hamas refused to release the remaining women and children first, which was an israeli demand, and it really shows you just how much control hamas has over the situation. i mean, i didn't mean to dismiss, you know, what this means for netanyahu, all of these people are going to have to go, right, i mean, it is the worst failure in israeli history. worse than 1973, the i don't mean -- yom kippur war. there's a lot of frustration. you're hearing from israeli military officials about how the united states is not allowing israel to pursue the mission the way they need to. one of the things i think i'm surprised is we don't have more focus in the international community on how to get more palestinian civilians out. how to put pressure on hamas to surrender. that sounds crazy but that's key to all of this. if they do not, i'm convinced they're going to continue in the south what they did in the north as they see necessary. >> ronen bergman, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your reporting. john brennan as always, thank you, and janine zacharia, thank you. a pivotal hearing that could set the pace for the hearing in fulton county, georgia. also ahead, what happens in georgia, may not stay in georgia, how prosecutors in nevada and arizona are looking to use one of trump's codefendants who pleaded guilty in fulton county to help their cases. and later, we'll remember a trail blazing woman, a giant of jurisprudence, supreme court justice sandra day o'connor died today at the age of 93. 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first time, team trump was in court defending the ex-president in the fulton county election interference case. attorneys for donald trump made a bid to toss out the indictment of trump by fulton county district attorney fani willis. their argument is going to sound familiar to any of you who have been following either this case or the federal election interference case. attorneys for trump and several of his codefendants claim that they were exercising, you guessed it, their first amendment rights and claiming that the election was marred by fraud. here is how trump lawyer, stephen sadow put it. >> you take the facts as alleged in the indictment throughout the rico count, and when you do that as applied constitutionally with the first amendment, you find that it violates free speech, freedom of petitioning, all of the expressions that the first amendment is designed to protect, and therefore the indictment needs to be dismissed. >> one of the big outstanding questions in this case, when donald trump's trial will take place. fulton county prosecutors reiterated they want an august 2024 trial date. trump's attorney said that the ex-president does not want to be on trial while he is campaigning, calling it, quote, election interference. joining our conversation, former assistant u.s. attorney glenn kirschner, editor at large, and greg bluestein. >> there's a blizzard of motions. david shaffer filed motions to throw out the entire case against him, saying his actions as a fake republican elector were protected by federal, not state law. there's motions basically by steve sadow, donald trump's attorney, i'm quoting here, the most effective election interference in the history of the united states. he said that timing would impede donald trump's ability to run for president again. and there were other motions involving really another interesting thing that steve sadow tried to argue was that if donald trump is reelected, the fulton county case would be off the table. >> that deep sigh from you, charlie sykes, is a deep sigh that we are all experiencing, but glenn, i want to go to you first for legal analysis here. we have first heard that first amendment defense. we have heard it from trump, from his team, but is speech made to commit a crime really free speech? >> you know, these arguments have been made before, in fact, similar arguments were made in this very case down in georgia by sidney powell's lawyer, and kenneth chesebro's lawyer, and they ultimately lost and pleaded guilty. the same will happen to donald trump. he will lose these motions. i think these motions are being made, just to preserve their ability to raise them on appeal in the event of conviction because if you don't make a motion, you have forever waived your right to waive it on appeal, but here's the thing, alicia, the supreme court has said that speech that is integral to criminal conduct generally does not enjoy first amendment protections. so for example, if i'm talking to charlie, and we would never do this, we agreed to rob a bank, and i said, charlie, i'm going to need you to get a car that we need to use as the get away vehicle, what have i done, i've used words, speech, my freedom of expression, but it's integral to criminal conduct, so it does not enjoy first amendment protection, and it can be charged as part of a conspiracy to rob a bank. >> charlie, let's talk about that deep sigh, what was at the root of that deep sigh, and let's talk about something that the judge asked today. the judge asked prosecutors if an elector had ever been charged before, and they said that, no, they haven't, but that it doesn't matter, which speaks to just the truly uncharted territory that we are in here. >> no, it is truly uncharted, we need to keep reminds ourselves of how completely about northerly this is. look, donald trump is running for president in part to stay out of jail, and he is using his campaign to avoid being held accountable for his crimes, and of course there is the prospect that if he is elected that he can make it go away. so it does come back. we need to constantly keep that frame in mind. we also need to keep in mind how crucial the timing of all of these cases will be. we have an election in november of 2024. donald trump is doing everything possible to delay. the trials and the verdicts until after that. but i think it is crucial in any sort of discussion of the rule of law or the various bulwarks that the constitution provides against the abuse of power that the voters know what the president has done, and know whether or not he is, in fact, above the law, and will be held accountable. so we have these two things going on. the president obviously trying to use his campaign and the possible presidency to evade accountability, and of course the importance of the calendar. could i also point out, as each of the rulings come down, we have to have rulings on whether or not a president is immune, whether he can use that, whether it's a first amendment, we also have to realize that as these trials get closer, donald trump becomes more desperate and therefore more dangerous because if this campaign is about his freedom, it becomes existential for him, and it means that he mr. do things, and say things, and foment things that no other candidate for president has ever done, and so as the stakes rise, the danger rises as well. >> right, and that is why greg, in part, the time line is so important. i want to talk about the big looming issue of a trial date specifically in this case, what is it we can expect next on this issue? >> we haven't had judge mcafee's ruling on the proposed trial date by fani willis will go forward. we know that's a few weeks after the republican national convention, in the middle of the campaign trail. steve sadow, donald trump's attorney was saying that would essentially be election interference on the fulton county district attorney's part. her allies, her office argued no such thing. they said that it would not impede donald trump from campaigning or seeking public office. it wouldn't block him from doing anything, particularly blocking him from seeking a comeback bid. the judge has not ruled on that yet, and we expect more back and forth before he does. >> he admitted that if trump wins reelection, the case could not be tried, which strikes me as saying the quiet part out loud. >> oh, yeah, let's face it, they believe that donald trump is immune at all times from prosecution. if he's in office, he can't be prosecuted according to trump's attorney, and now, when he says if he's prosecuted while he'll he's running for office, that represents election interference, put another way, there is apparently candidate immunity. i think it's ironic that he is asserting candidate immunity on the very day that the d.c. federal circuit court of appeals says he doesn't even have presidential immunity from civilian lawsuits brought against him for what he did on and around january 6th while he was president. so i can't believe there's any court in the land that's going to buy into candidate immunity. >> greg bluestein, as always, thank you so much for joining us on these busy days. glenn and charlie, you are sticking with me. ahead for us, why attorney kenneth chesebro, one of the president's exdefendants until the rico case may pop up as a witness in other cases. we're going to explain after this quick break. oh. what did you get us? with the click of a pen, you can a new volkswagen at the sign, then drive event. hurry in to lease a new 2023 all-electric id.4 for zero down, zero deposit, zero first month's payment, and zero due at signing. limited inventory available. hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. a new report says that kenneth chesebro, the trump ally who orchestrated the 2020 fake electors plot, and pleaded guilty in the georgia interference case brought by fani willis, he now plans to meet with investigators in arizona and in nevada where separate investigations are preceding. the "washington post" write, chesebro who pleaded guilty in the georgia case to a single felony count of participating in a conspiracy to file false documents had been charged primarily in relation to his 2020 in organizing slates of pro-trump slate electors. he avoids prison time but must testify in the case. separately he has been approachedy prosecutors in arizona and nevada who are investigating whether the trump slates of electors that gathered in those states broke any laws. said the individuals all of whom spoke on the conditions of anonymity to discuss secret or sensitive proceedings. one said a grand jury is examining the nevada case and that chesebro is expected to testify in front of that panel. he plans to travel to the state this week. we are back with glenn and with charlie. glenn, a source tells the post that they want to, quote, know the roots of the fake elector theory. who better than to talk to than chesebro. >> yeah, exactly, alicia. anytime prosecutors enter into a plea deal with cooperation that requires testimony, it is sort of par for the course that that cooperating witness will be required to testify anywhere, anytime, in any jurisdiction or forum where that cooperating witness's testimony is deemed relevant. i could see the chesebro's and the powells of the sad affair in georgia, crisscrossing the country and being required to testify before any grand juries anywhere that are investigating the fake elector scheme. this is, you know, when you're a cooperating witness, you're in for a penny, and you're in for a pound, and the prosecutors are going to require you to testify anywhere your testimony is deemed relevant. >> charlie, just a reminder of how sprawling this effort was, right, the fact that there are investigations in multiple states, and what an about face for an attorney who reportedly hatched this plot, was on the grounds on january 6th. we ask a lot about what it will take, finally, for the facts to come out. we are watching it in realtime. >> yeah, and this is extraordinary because i think that he was one of the defendants who i thought was the least likely to cut a deal, who were most likely to go to trial. to your point about how sprawling this was, as i'm listening to your report, i hope that the investigators in wisconsin also ask about the attempts to flip this state's electors because he played a very significant, under appreciated role in trying to take away wisconsin's electoral votes, and for people who wonder, how does this fit into the big picture, it is absolutely crucial that the criminal justice system aggressively pursue this election fraud involving the electors because as with january 6th, also with this attempt to overturn the election, if it is not -- if people are not held accountable, it will turn out to have been a rehearsal for what can happen in the future. i don't think anybody should be in denial about whether or not this is simply something that happened in the past but could not happen in the future. does anybody think that the 2024 election aftermath will be marked by a gracious concession by donald trump. we could see other attempts to mess with the electoral result, which is why it is important for prosecutors to make it clear that if you engage in a conspiracy to attempt to overturn the election, you will be held legally accountable and it is a felony. >> what i think, glenn, that charlie gets so exactly right, it's easy to imagine we are prosecuting in the rear view when there is a threat before us on the horizon. the fact that these investigators in arizona, in nevada, they are talking to chesebro, what does it tell you about the state of those investigations? >> it tells you that now some of the states, just like georgia are now also pursuing potential violation of state laws. try and make such an excellent point because thus far, alicia, the command structure of the insurrection has not been held accountable federally. now, i understand that jack smith has taken a certain tactical approach. he's decided to indict donald trump as the only conspirator in a stand alone case, and he has, you know, included some six uncharged coconspirators, but these people make up the command structure, the hierarchy of the insurrection, and they are still out there, and you know what, the next presidential election is rapidly approaching. so if you fail to prosecute wrong doing, expect more wrong doing. you're encouraging and even giving a green light to people to do it all over again. if you don't hold yesterday's insurrectionists accountable. >> among the ironies of the way that donald trump talks about how he has been targeted and how he tries to sell his orders on this idea that they have been targeted is that really what we are seeing here is an equal application of the law. right? really what we are seeing is for some of the first time people who were close to the inner circle of this fraud actually being held responsible. right? we've seen people who were part of the writers on 1/6. we have seen them be held responsible. we're finally seeing closer and closer and closer to the inner circle. you're seeing what amounts to a delivery of justice. >> right. so there's a defensive element to this, and then there's the offensive element. he's trying to defend himself by saying, see, i'm a victim here. i'm being persecuted, but -- and i think people have recognized this, there's also a lot of projection going on. he's saying that the justice department has been weaponized when it is donald trump himself who is threatening and promising to weapon national security adviser -- weaponize the department of justice. donald trump has said over and over again, if he gets back into office, he will use the department as a cud yul of retribution and revenge. he's setting the stage to say that this gives him now a license to go after his political opponents who may not have committed in crimes whatsoever, and many of the people he singled out, the only crime they have committed has been to criticize donald j. trump. so this is, again, once again, a reminder of just how dangerous and fragile our moment is. >> indeed. glen kirschner, charlie sykes, thank you both for spending time with us. ahead for us, we're going to remember an american icon, the first woman to serve on the united states supreme court, sandra day o'connor who died today at 93. i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal, have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. she found it. the feeling of finding the psoriasis treatment she's been looking for. sotyktu is the 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(vo) three lobster and shrimp entrees for a limited time. ♪ sandra day o'connor, the first woman to ever serve on the supreme court died this morning at the age of 93. appointed to the court in 1981 by then president ronald reagan, justice o'connor served for over two decades and established herself as a critical swing vote. she cast deciding votes in pivotal cases like bush v. gore where she sided with conservatives to end the f recount, and planned parenthood, where she sided with the court's liberals to protect abortion access. in a statement released today, chief justice john roberts said, quote, sandra day o'connor, blazed a trail as the nation's first female justice. she met that challith undaunted determination, indisputable candor. we mourn the loss of a beloved colleague, a fiercely independent defender of the rule of law and advocate for civics and education, and we celebrate her enduring legacy as a true public servant and patriot. joining us, kimberly atkins stohr, and author of lady justice, dahlia lithwick. there are people in this country like myself who were born after sandra day o'connor was appointed to the bench. we do not know a time when there was a supreme court without women. remind us the significance of the appointment of the first female supreme court justice. >> yes, it was significant, and recall that at the time it was a promise that ronald reagan made to appoint a woman to the court. i know there was a lot of controversy when president biden vowed to put a black woman on the court like that was something, you know, outrageous. but the court up and to that point didn't have a woman, and it meant a lot, and she knew that it meant a lot. in an interview, she said that she was the first, but she was mindful that she had to do the kind of job that would ensure she would not be the last. alicia, i had the honor of meeting her. she was the first supreme court justice i ever met. i was in high school, and i came to washington for the first time, and went to the supreme court and was able to meet and talk with her, and her wisdom and grace, not just about the rule of law but about being the first woman solidified my decision to go to law school, and she opened that same door for so many other women in the legal profession. so that impact that she had cannot be underscored, and she also is a reminder of a time that regardless of your background, she was a republican. she was a republican politician. she was an elected official in arizona. but she voted the way she believed the law and the constitution demanded. and that's why she voted in favor of abortion rights, for example, while at the same time, casting other votes that i may not agree with but i always respected her jurisprudence because it wasn't outcome driven, it was driven by the law and the constitution as she saw it. >> kim, that story about you and sandra day o'connor gave me chills, thinking about baby kimberly thinking about what she was going to do with her life and being pushed in the right direction by someone who understood what it was like to be the first and only. she tried to avoid giant steps you'll live to regret. tell me what that means. >> i mean, i think first of all, i feel exactly the way kim feels. i'm not sure i would have applied to law school but for sandra day o'connor. she really sometimes gets downgraded a little bit because rbg was such a rock star, but for a lot of us, justice o'connor just paved the trail. i think the thing that was really unique about her and its caught in that phrase you just suggested is she was ultimately very humble. i think that she changed a lot over her career. she frequently said i learned from people. i learned from thurgood marshall, i learned as i grew. i evolved. i changed. she is not in any way, shape or form, an ideologue. she was somebody who we maligned her for this sometimes, we said, you know, she's so small boar. she's just fixing one case at a time, but she was not setting out to set the world on fire. she just wanted to fix stuff. she just wanted to make the law fair for more people every day. and i think the thing that she in my view really shone a light on was just simultaneously this deep humility that she was just learning and trying to fix things, and a deep, deep sense that the law was there for all of us, including the invisible among us, and that's the thing that i think maybe i miss most about her on this current court. >> well, specifically, kim, when it comes to this question of affirming abortion rights? okay, kim, i was coming to you on this question on the role she played in reaffirming abortion lights. i think i might have lost kim, i'm going to you on this question because i do think it will end up being part of >> look, i think it's fair to say that ronald reagan put her on the court very confident that she was going to overturn roe v. wade. he said as much. early in her judicial career, she made feints at that. i think as kim suggested, 1992 in the casey decision, she kind of planted a flag for the proposition "a" that abortion rights are not simple, and she created a new test in casey. also for the proposition that the enduring respect for the court, the idea that the court had to take stairry decisis and precedent seriously. the legitimacy of the court mattered more than her own personal views. she did, in fact, uphold the ruling of roe v. wade in casey. i think generally as she bumped along in her career, more and more and more she subordinated her own personal politics for the idea that, oh my goodness, i don't know everything but i know that people have to care about the court, and that was a big, big theme. not just in her abortion jurs prudence, but i think her jurisprudence toward the end of her career. what is the right thing to do in this moment? what is going to keep us together? what is going to keep people feeling confident about the court? again, i think that's the sort of vibe that we're not hearing very much from the court right now. >> kim, i have less than 30 seconds left. your final thoughts? >> that's exactly right, what dahlia was talking about. i think it's sad that her comments about she hoped affirmative action would no longer be necessary was used as some sort of deadline, i don't think she meant it that way. i think she was dreaming of a better world and keeping that door open till we got there. i hope that's the way we remember her and hope that the court maybe remembers her legacy and tries to act more in line with it. >> kim, dahlia, thank you both. ♪ using our technology to power different ways of learning. ♪ harnessing ai to plant new beginnings. ♪ so when minds grow, opportunities follow. 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