that one hope to have her back, embrace her, her birthday is on friday. she's turning 4. >> the great aunt of young abigail edan is one of the countless desperate family members hoping their loved one is among the hostages expected to be freed soon by hamas. but the release will not be happening as soon as everyone hoped. also tonight, elon musk is having trouble facing the truth about the rampant anti-semitic content on formerly known as twitter. the president of that organization will join me. plus, with republican speaker mike johnson likely to push for a national abortion ban, abortion right's activists are stepping up the pressure, seeking to enshrine a woman's right to choose in the constitutions of several more states. but we begin tonight with overwhelming anticipation for the israeli and palestinian families who may reunite with their loved ones in the coming days. israel and hamas have agreed to a breakthrough deal to release 50 women and children who were kidnapped and held in gaza. the plan will also include the release of 150 palestinians from israeli jails. initial reports said hostages held by hamas could be released as soon as tomorrow morning. but late today, the israeli government announced that the release will not take place before friday. it's another devastating blow for the families. what we do know about the deal is that it will allow humanitarian aid and fuel to enter gaza. the deal also includes an option to extend the pause in fighting in exchange for ten israeli hostages per day and a proportionate release of palestinians. today, prime minister benjamin netanyahu addressed his country for the first time since the israeli parliament approved the deal last night. he said the red cross will be allowed to see and treat the remaining hostages. he also vowed that israel's military campaign will continue until hamas is dismantled. the deal comes as the debate over the hamas attack rages on within israel. according to a poll by the hebrew language newspaper, 80% of israelis believe prime minister netanyahu must take responsibility for the security failures exposed by the attack. and his approval ratings have plummeted, beyond israel's border, a wider debate looms over the humanitarian consequences of bibi's war. netanyahu is israel's longest-serving prime menster. he was first elected as a right wing party candidate in 1996. he returned to power in 2009 and has been prime minister for 13 of the past 14 years. notably, for most of the time hamas has been in charge of gaza. for someone whose current mission in life is to eradicate hamas, bibi has actually done a lot to prop up the militant group. it may sound like a head scratcher until you remember that his prime directive has always been a vehement opposition to a two-state solution. bolstering hamas rule in gaza helped undermine the palestinian authority in the west bank. divide and conquer was the plan. as well as empowering israeli settlers in the occupied west bank and the far right and in some cases racist religious parties currently in his governing coalition. that's to say nothing of his current legal problems, pending indictments against him and his wife for corruption and his push to essentially take control of israel's supreme court. and if all of that sounds trump-illy, familiar, an israeli newspaper, haarietz described him as this, for over a decade, netanyahu has lent a hand in various ways to the growing military and political power of hamas. netanyahu is the one who turned hamas from a terror organization to a semistate body, releasing palestinian prisoners, allowing cash transfers with the knowledge that much of the material will be designated with terrorism. all created symbiosis flowering of fundamentalist terrorism and the preservation of netanyahu's rule. joining me now is eamon moi dean and he covered the israeli-palestinian conflict as a foreign correspondent. will bunch, columnist and dr. tonya hodge hassan pediatric intensive care with doctors without borders, co-founder of the social media platform gaza medic voices. thank you both for being here. dr. hassan, i want to start with you just to get your reaction to this deal that will allow the red cross to go in and see israeli and other hostages and will also allow humanitarian groups begin operating and delivering fuel and medical supplies into gaza. give us your take on this deal that hasn't happened yet but seems to be in the works. >> you know, i've been saying since day one, this is one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes that myself and many in the humanitarian sector have seen. and everyday it just gets worse. i think we're at a point right now where humanitarian aid is so desperately needed. and we're still negotiating, letting in drops of what is needed across the gaza strip. i will welcome any humanitarian aid, but what has -- what we have seen on the ground so far has been nominal, hasn't been anywhere near what is needed. winter is coming. there are 1.5 million internally displaced people within the gaza strip. and we can talk at some point about the injured, but i'm at the moment just talking about those who are displaced with no access to clean water, suffering from starvation and all the illnesses that we're starting to see as a result of displacement or unsanitary conditions or water-born diseases. so any amount of aid is welcome, but what is needed is a cease fire so that we can have unhindered humanitarian aid going into the gaza strip. i think there needs to be medical checks, of course, on the hostages, but also on the entire civilian population in the gaza strip of which we know at this point 20,000 are injured and in need of urgent medical attention. >> let me go to you. daniel levi made the point yesterday and it's a smart point that this is a deal that bibi netanyahu had to make. he's facing increasing opposition to himself inside of his own country, protests, people marching against him including families of some of these hostages. the humanitarian catastrophe just described is exploding protests around the world. there's a lot of pressure and i assume the biden administration feels the pressure as the u.s. is owning some of this as well. talk about the imperatives for him to make this deal and what it means to him politically. seems the more hostages that come out, particularly as all the israeli citizen hostages come out, there's no deal for the other nationality hostages. there's no more incentive to stop the bombardment. >> yeah. look, honestly we have known about an offer to release the hostages through negotiations, through mediation really from almost the first couple of days of this war. there was a cell that was created immediately after october 7th to begin the process of trying to diplomatically release these hostages. so it was very early on that the israeli government was presented with what many believe were two fundamentally opposite objectives. one, release the hostages to destroy hamas as they stated, two. those two almost could not have happened in tangent by military force alone. and so from day one, the prime minister of israel found himself in a situation where a lot of critics were saying you are ultimately going to get to this point. yes, the military operation could strengthen your hand in negotiation. it could lessen the demands of hamas. but ultimately in order to secure the release of 200 plus hostages the middle of 2.2 million people that you don't know where they are, you are going to have to rely on negotiations to get them. now he has found himself in somewhat of a dead end road. 5,000 children dead, 13,000, 14,000 palestinians killed overall, 46% of the population either displaced or have their residence or buildings destroyed, the international pressure is mounting the leaders of the security services, the idf, the isa, everybody telling him, you have to release the hostages through negotiations, plus the families. so he ultimately came to this conclusion that the safest way to do it and perhaps the easiest way to do it is through diplomacy. hamas demonstrated early on in this process by releasing those two americans and those two elderly israeli women that they were prepared to release the hostages through diplomacy. so we're back to where we could have been without the casualties, without the loss of life on the palestinian side and with a much better success rate of releasing all the hostages than where we could have been earlier on than where we are today. >> let me ask you a follow-up question ayman because we know that of the hostages that are there, we don't know precise numbers of nationalities but there are a substantial number of migrant workers who work in like land and india and the philippines who are among the hostages. according to nbc news the latest guidance we have gotten, this negotiation is only for israeli citizen and dual-national hostages, mainly american. is there any reporting on the whether the governments of these other countries, some are british nationals but of indian extraction, et cetera, are other governments having separate negotiations to get their people out? again, once the israeli nationals are out, the question is, is there an incentive to stop the bombardment of gaza because the continued bombardment not only obviously creates a humanitarian crisis, it create ascariasis for those hostages, too? >> it certainly does. i think the way to approach this is to think of the hostages in a few different categories. and let's say what we do know is close to 70 are israeli soldiers. those 70 israeli soldiers hamas has made clear they are not going to release under any condition until or unless it is through diplomacy or mediation that requires a complete end of the hostilities. so, even if we release all of the israeli hostages through mediations, the qatari government said it is open to negotiating with any government wanting to get its hostages released. trying to figure out what to do to release those held captive by hamas in gaza. for its part, hamas said clearly they do not want civilians. they do not want women and children and foreign workers. and they're prepared to release them, but their conditions for releasing them require the end of hostilities so they can consolidate these hostages which they say to this day not all have under their control. some have been taken by other palestinian factions and militant groups. >> will bunch, you wrote a couple columns to -- he is a cautionary tale for americans. please explain. >> well, exactly. i mean, you mentioned in your introduction some of the parallels to donald trump. and the fact that he's under criminal indictment just as donald trump is important because a lot of israeli citizens feel that his actions, both before october 7th and maybe to some extent after october 7th have been motivated by his efforts to, you know, stay out of jail, put off these corruption charges. you know, opinion polls in israel have shown the israeli people by and large are tired of his leadership. you know, the polls i've seen it's divided between people who want to leave as prime minister right now and people who are willing to let him finish out this war and then want him to go immediately after. so it's interesting. and you have to wonder today in announcing this deal he said once we first name these exchanges the war is back on. and you just have to wonder again how much of this is self preservation. one reason it's funny is i'm a domestic columnist, i have been writing because he's a cautionary tale for electing donald trump. not just the legal parallels, which are pretty remarkable but also just to form his government, he took a sharp right turn, which, you know, and he's adopted some really extreme ministers, the ones you heard making some of these comments about reducing gaza to rubble. and, you know, here with donald trump in the u.s., he also sees taking a far right turn as his path to returning to the presidency. some of these extreme people like steven miller he's surrounded with and some of his extreme ideas. you know, history in the 20th century has shown that far right authoritarians have very miltistic policies and their policies end up in war. and i think that's something that american voters should look at what's happened with netanyahu and think about what it might mean returning donald trump to the white house. >> i appreciate all of you being here. i wish we had more time, but we are out of time. ayman, will bunch, dr. tawnya hassan, very illuminating conversation. thank you all very, very much. before we go to break, we are following today's developing story from niagara falls where earlier today a car crashed and exploded at a u.s./canada border check point. authorities say two people in the car were killed. nbc news obtained exclusive video of the car appearing to travel at high speed, hitting a median and going airborne. late today new york governor kathy hochul said there's no indication, no indication, of a terrorist attack at this time. up next on "the reidout," elon musk embarks on a new money-losing venture with a lawsuit accusing media matters of manipulating his platform to produce a report that led to exodus of advertisers. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. ♪♪ we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪ my mom's life is the most important thing to me. hi mom! i called my mom, "i have this gene and i think you need to get tested." she feels like it was truly lifesaving. c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. and i think you need to get tested." it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. on monday, elon musk delivered his much-promised thermo nuclear lawsuit against media matters for america, a nonprofit known for its criticism of conserve tich outlets and media figures. musk the self proclaimed free speech absolutist was triggered by a media matters report that said that the social media company he owns, x, the former twitter, wasn't doing much to control ad placements next to anti-semitic rhetoric. x, had assured the public that it introduced safety precautions that would safety protections that would prevent ads from appearing next to harmful content. last week one of their journalists reported that ads for media companies were being placed alongside memes portraying naziism. a spiritual awakening and a hitler quotes. to be clear, media matters did not invent the anti-semitic tweets and didn't falsely place the images side by side, they just pointed out that this was happening. shortly after the media matters report came out, companies like ibm, lion's gate, comcast, our parent company, apple and disney among others decided to pause their advertising on x twitter. according to data from a market intelligence firm, those companies represent 7% of x's u.s. ad revenue this year. the exodus came at the same time that musk was promoting and agreeing with someone who was pushing the notion that jewish people support white genocide. in the texas-based lawsuit x claims that media matters manipulated the x algorithm by following 30 accounts made up of only anti-semitic users and large companies and did so by undertaking excessive scrolling and refreshing. musk's lawsuit was cheered by right wing politicians like right wing texas attorney general ken paxton, you know, the guy who was impeached and later acquitted for abuse of power, bribery and hooking his mistress up with a gig in austin so he could mean her sur uppity shously. he said he would examine the issue closely to ensure the public has not been -- would like nothing more than to limit freedom by reducing participation in the public square. apparently, the attorney general of missouri will do the same. angela, the president and ceo of media matters tweeted, this is a frivolous lawsuit meant to bully x's krit irks into silence. media matters stands behind its reporting and look forward to winning in court. meanwhile the social media platform remains a welcome space for you name it. while musk personally decides seemingly randomly what words, phrases and ideas he will ban that day. it's almost as if his interpretation of freedom of speech is lettingsolute people and bots say what they want as long as elon agrees with them. joining me is president and ceo of media matters, ben collins, nbc news senior reporter. angela, i want to start with you. what is excessive scrolling and was media matters excessively scrolling and faking the symmetry or the close association of content with nazi stuff? >> i think that they're trying to describe just the general use of twitter. that's what you do on twitter. you look at your feed. and then it refreshes. and that's -- just like they use the word manipulate -- that nip late the public, but even in their own statements acknowledge that everything we reported was completely accurate. so, you know, that's what i think they mean by it. they're just trying to make it sound dastardly. the more broad issue, the thing i would point out, this is one of many reports and we're not the only people to have this phenomena. we have been pushing on this issue specifically on pro-nazi and hitler content since august. and, x has been engaging, saying, hey, we're going to fix this. we're ramping up our brand safety stuff, they're the ones making claims that they are supposed to be preventing ads from running alongside adjacent to this kind of extremist content. so it doesn't really matter how we used it, how many times we hit refresh. if ultimately the ads shouldn't be there in the first place because that's the standard that they're setting. and it shows they're not doing the very thing they're saying and that's what the report was designed to illustrate. >> and ben, you check twitter so we don't have to as i describe your job. i mean, you probably do a lot of excessive scrolling. because i can say that just as a former user who has jumped off the platform because of the increasing sort of nazi vibe of it which used to be in the early days, 2008, 2009 when i first got on it was awful and got awful again and a lot of people just don't want to use it anymore. number one, is the phenomenon of increasing sort of nazi-like and anti-semitic content, is that something in your reporting that's real. and number two, how is it that advertisers are only now deciding to get off the platform? it surprised me that it just happened only recently. >> i have no idea why it took so long. i will say it is absolutely real and also there's a reason you have to excessively scroll to do that. i mean that technologically. elon set a precedent where looking under the hood of twitter was turned off. there's a thing called api access where you can basically look at the fundamentals, the technological, the actual amount of stuff that's going through twitter at any given moment. researchers used to be able to look at this stuff. but when elon bought it, for this reason, he made it so you can no longer see behind the scenes like that. a lot of places like facebook sort of followed their lead. the best practices for actually studying what's happening on social media have been turned off. and that's because of the pressure campaign that elon musk and republican lawmakers have been putting on for years and years. so, elon effectively turned off the ability to study the internet and to study twitter and to study the public conversation. and then afterwards said, why are you scrolling so excessively to find all these ads. it's because that's the only way to do journalism on that platform right now. >> what is linda, who used to work for nbc universal i should add and left here to go and work there and supposedly to increase their ad revenue, which had been tanking any way. i think some of the numbers goes down. here is the ad sales declines. reuters reported that x's ad revenue declined 55% year over year every month since elon musk took it over. what has she told employees internally and what is she saying about this? >> she told employees to start looking around for new kinds of revenue. because they're running out of money too fast. and also, they have -- when some of these brands are still on, when they got re-on boarded from last time that there was an advertiser boycott, one of them was like visa and visa spent $10, not like $10,000, $10. so this place is hemorrhaging cash. now, are they going to be able to survive this? i don't really know. elon wants to run this as a bare bones operation. but i will say the much more -- the much scarier part of all this is the preview, the political play book that's being created here by elon musk and the far right. they are going to these republican ags and saying, file these frivolous suits. go after the speech of people that we don't like. do it on our behalf. even though there's no case here, even though it's ridiculous, that's a preview of 2025 if trump gets back in office. that's what he wants to do on a state by state level. he wants to go after critics of their own under the guise hilariously of free speech. i just want people to be aware that if you think you're protected in this environment, the second you start disagreeing with somebody who has too much money, you're not going to be able to do that anymore. >> i will also note that, according to semifore, twitter hired or linda hired her son who has been tasked with outreach to republican digital advertising firms. just want to throw that out there. let me go back to you, anglo. this is what x twitter says they want in this lawsuit, actual and consequential damages caused by the defendant's misconduct including but not limited to all general and special damages i don't know what that means, preliminary and permanent injunctioned orring media matters to take down and remove the article talking about what what's in their ads from websites and social media accounts. x attorney fees and further relief that the court deems proper. your response to those demands? >> i mean, we reported something that was accurate that they even acknowledge. so i really don't understand it. this is like getting mad at a mirror or break a mirror because you don't like the reflection. that's what's happening here. that to me, i think we should get a thank you. if you look back at the totality of our reporting, they either had to respond to it or take action on it. we've been doing the work just like other reporters throughout, that the brand, safety and trust he used to do on twitter, that elon musk gutted when he took it over to help it turn into the increasing cesspool of toxicity it is. frankly i don't see the point here except to do nothing more than silence us and what ben said is right and i want to echo it. this is a key hole view to the future, a preview. it's not just they enlisted ags, where they're suing us, how they're proceeding here and enlisting and marshalling all the forces both criminal and civil to try not just shut us down but also intimidate us going forward or make it significantly more difficult for us to do our job. that won't be limited to just us to be honest. >> yeah, i agree. ben f you can briefly explain -- i think i do -- you're unfrozen. this strange thing that happened where elon musk, who essentially endorsed the idea that jewish people are pushing white genocide. to then getting praised by the head of the anti-defamation league, how did that happen? what is going on there? >> yeah. i would really like an answer to that as well. you know, elon made a decision to effectively, you know -- i actually don't know if this is toothless or not but he said words like decolonization are no longer allowed on the platform which was applauded by jonathan greenblatt, two days after he agreed with a guy who was trying to spell out how hitler was right on his -- on twitter. so, i don't really understand this. there is a much larger question that i would love to ask jonathan greenblatt and love somebody at our network to ask jonathan greenblatt because i have not heard a reasonable explanation for this. the adl by the way has outstanding researchers, really good researchers in this space. i'm sure they don't know what to do because people like the tiktok woman, she had a whole basic document worked up about her from the adl about the extremism of that organization, of that group. and that was just pulled down randomly. they say it's on hold now. there's something going on with the adl jonathan greenblatt being afraid of pressure from the far right. i don't know what it is but i would love to hear some answers. >> we may want to follow up on that very interesting questions. anglo, ben, thank you. we would love to follow up on all of these issues. thank you all very much. coming up abortion rights groups race to get measures on the ballot ahead of the 2024 as new speaker of the house compares abortion to the holocaust. n to the holocaust. hey, you should try new robitussin honey medi-soothers for long-lasting cough and sore throat relief. try new robitussin lozenges with real medicine and 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[limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ i was on a work trip when the pulmonary embolism happened. but because i have 23andme, i was aware of that gene. that saved my life. abortion rights advocates have an unbroken winning streak with ballot measures since roe v. wade was overturned last year. now, advocates are racing to put the issue abortion directly to voters in more states. with efforts in at least nine states to put abortion rights measures on the ballot in 2024. it couldn't come at a more critical time, especially now that christian nationalists and anti-abortion zealot mike johnson is speaker of the house. we're learning more about his extreme views as yet another batch of old interviews resurfaced, like this radio interview last year a month before roe was overturned >> it is truly a american holocaust. i mean, the reality is that planned parenthood and all these big abortion, they set up their clinics in inner cities. they are, you know, they regard these people as easy prey. >> in another interview on the day row versus way was overturned johnson was asked about clarence thomas' concurrence, thomas suggested the court should reconsider other decisions, also known as insuring access to contraception, the theory to be in same sex relationships and legalized same sex marriage. >> i thought it was interesting the words of justice thomas, as he sort of looked forward to what this could mean for other big culture war issues this country. >> well, that's right. you know, we have been sort of working against these activt courts for years. there's been some really bad law made. they've made a mess of our jurisprudence in this country for the last several decades. and maybe some of that needs to be cleaned up. what justice thomas is calling for is not radical. in fact, it's the opposite of that, you know. we finally have a majority of originalists on the court. >> wow. joining me now is michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for the "new york times" and msnbc political analyst. not radical at all says mike johnson of the idea of eliminating the right, not just to same sex marriage but to make it possible for same sex -- relationships to be illegal again and to take away women's right to contraception. i want to let you ruminate on that for a minute. >> well, i think it's sometimes because there's been so much progress in this country on gay rights, even though there's been certainly some backtracking lately, it's easy to forget that there was places that banned gay sex, you know, kind of within our life time, right? and so obergefell, this decision that struck down texas's anti-sodomy decision or sorry that struck down anti-sodomy law -- >> lawrence. >> lawrence. that was 2005, i believe. right? and so, i think that it's very clear that this is where mike johnson whose language is very familiar if you spent any time in christian nationalist circles. it's very clear where they want to take this country. >> yeah. or if you've head the hand maid's tale or seen the series. let me put up the map of where people who are now fully aware and i think people had gotten very complacent about the idea that the far right would eventually take away abortion right. they say they are going to do it and would do it. took 50 years but they did it. here is the map where states have banned or restricted abortion and also where ballot measures in nine states are going to be launched in order to try to preserve them. the states that are launching these measures to try to preserve abortion rights are nebraska, south dakota, missouri, florida, nevada, arizona, maryland, new york and colorado. i want to point to the ones that are important swing states, florida, nevada and arizona. your thoughts on the fact that in florida, the proposed state constitution now faces an attorney general who is trying to go to the supreme court in that state to throw that out. and to basically negate that. this is ashley moody, the ag there, five of the state's seven justices were appointed by six-week abortion desantis. your thoughts. >> well, this is what we have seen in other states as well. we have seen in ohio, for example, republicans did everything that they could to both keep an abortion amendment off the ballot and then to change the language of that amendment to make it as confusing as possible. they tried to pass another amendment that would make it more difficult for this amendment to pass. none of it worked because the public support was so clear and decisive. but, the pattern is that they will sort of throw every legal trick that they can come up with to -- because they know they're going to pass them. not only are they going to pass, but they are probably going to bring a lot of voters to the polls who wouldn't come to the polls otherwise. i mean, we're going into this election demoralized democrat elect rat in a lot of sectors. this is the thing that gets people excited one thing that i think is interested is you you have republicans having to put anti-abortion ballot initiatives to the voters. and you know, i certainly don't want to applaud that. there's part of me that wishes them good luck because i think that will be a real boon to democratic turn out in those two states. >> yeah, it's been proven that abortion is a motivating issue particularly for younger voters and for women. this is going to seem like a term but it isn't. there's a conservative group the daily beast has gotten their tax returns. and they are connected to this project 2025. that's an attempt tock the -- another trump administration with far right wing extremists. they're now getting money apparently -- ts nonprofit called americanomss is now getting money appy from william and flora hewitt foundation. these are normally organizations that date to liberal causes. what do you make of the fact that it seems that maybe liberal groups are participating in what really is a plan to fashion a fascist government. >> i honestly have no idea. i can't imagine that the hewitt foundation in particular is kind of purposely putting his money -- has made an affirmative decision to try to stack up a future trump administration. you know, so i hope obviously that there will be some accountability and some sort of internal accounting and explanation for why their money went there. what is significant is that these are the people who are going to be stacking a new trump administration. not the kind of so-called adults in the room, not the sort of squishy moderates in the republican party. it's going to be like -- true believers. people willing to put aside their own risk of legal exposure, the possibility of disgrace in the wider world to implement an agenda that they've been -- that they've had in mind for decades. and that can really -- you can really do a lot with the -- steve bannon likes to call it the institutions of the administrative state. >> look at argentina, one of the things that that far right trump of argentina is implementing is a national abortion ban. it's always a part of the plan to suppress the rights of women. goes along with fascism. it's just part of the play book. michelle goldberg, thank you very much. up next a new documentary explores a bold new theory on reverse migration as a means of putting more political power into the hands of black americans. the subject and executive producer of that documentary charles blow joins me next. joit i was on a work trip when the pulmonary embolism happened. but because i have 23andme, i was aware of that gene. that saved my life. 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(announcer) change your life at golo.com. that's golo.com. salonpas, makers of powerful pain relief patches for 89 years... believes in continuous improvement... like rounded corners that resist peeling, with an array of active ingredients... and sizes to relieve your pain. salonpas. it's good medicine. honey, i think i heard something. ok. ♪ from christmas tree mats... to floorliners... cargo liners.... no drill mud flaps... seat protectors... and more... weathertech has the perfect holiday gift. honey, is everything ok? oh yeah. order at weathertech.com and don't forget weathertech gift cards. between 1910 and 1970, 6 million black americans left the jim crow south to escape segregation and racial violence and pursue economic opportunities in northern and western cities in what we know now as the great migration. but in a new documentary, "new york times" columnist and friend of the show charles blow is putting a theory of his to the test and challenging black americans to move back to the southern states with the highest percentages of black residents in order to take control of southern legislatures and gain greater political power, both in the region and in the country as a whole. to make this case, charles talks to politicians, historians, community activists and even members of his own family. >> see me coming back because i want to come back. i want to be the mayor. i want to do better. i'm going to be calling people left of this town, hey, i need your help. you have to have people to drive a community, to build up those schools, bring businesses in town. >> just >> people are having tot away from here to build up that wealth. the south, we've been shunned and the pass. now, there's a lot of opportunity for folks to come back to the south, make a difference and renew it. >> joining me now is charles blow, executive producer of the new documentary, south to black power. charles, thank you for being here. this is fascinating, because anecdotally, i can tell you, that is the way to florida initially became a swing state, right? we used to call broward county the six borough, because there are so many black new yorkers there. other northerners that moved to atlanta. talk about this theory, or one that moved to atlanta, why should black folk leave the north where they have the right to an abortion and a lot more sort of freedom from book bans and things like that in the south? >> number one, i will say that at the end of the civil war, through southern states for majority black. louisiana, mississippi and south carolina. three others had percentage points equal of majority black. because of that, because their access to state power, they had tremendous success moving the country towards those states of equality. i believe that state power is incredibly important to any sort of power. the reason that the country is called the united states of america, because states have the power. that said, i have a list of states -- by the way, and those states, i think are primed for this sort of transformation. that includes georgia, where i moved to. you see what happens in a state like that, when black people start to get more and more power. in the last election, they were able to flip the state and elect a black senator and jewish so that there. that was led by black people. that is the power. for individuals, don't have to make their own choice and decisions about what freedom and safety, prosperity mean for them, and everything will go into that equation. there's no perfect place or state to be in the country. some of the most liberal states in the country are also some of the ones who, per capita, incarcerate a lot of black people. for instance, nobody could argue government is not one of the most liberal states in america, and yet, when i was writing this book, i looked at incarceration data for 2016. vermont was the leading in caserta per capita a black man. >> wow. >> you had to look at everyone at the variables, throw out your preconceived notions about where's racism, where racism isn't? where is progress and we're progresses and? and look at what black peoples conditions are in those places, and what your personal condition is, and maybe it makes sense to you, maybe it doesn't. -- >> yeah, what was interesting is that mississippi has about 31, 32% african americans, but it's harder for african americans to get their way electorally than it is in michigan, which is not percent black. there is this disconnection between the number of black people, the percentages that are there, in places like south carolina, north carolina, et cetera. what they're able to accomplish. in order for this to work, wouldn't it be necessary for african americans to move south, not too old moved to atlanta but to move to rural georgia. not to all move to jackson, but to move to rural mississippi. isn't it the case that a lot of the power is second out of the big cities, where black folks know morally live and to rural places? is your argument that just move south but to move out into rural america, because it is the rural parts that generally hold the power. and the state legislatures, i should agree. >> i actually believe that people should move to the cities. there are 1200 majority black cities and towns in america. 90% of them are in the american south. most of the capital cities of the south are majority black. the municipal south, one to argue, is black, and therefore, you have a lot of safety in numbers in those particular cities. and the first hurdle for me is the statewide races, not the ones that can be dealt with by gerrymandering. i am looking at governor seats. i am looking at can you deliver a state. it does not matter where you live in a state in a presidential election, you vote that way, you deliver the state, regardless of where you are in rural or suburban. in addition to that, every senator is a statewide race. it does not matter where you live in that state, if the state overall votes to the senator, a senator wins. if you start to pick up governor seats, senator seats and deliver presidential races, that is power. >> wow, it is a fascinating documentary. ever watch it. charles blow, thank you so much. it's called south to black power. permits thursday, november 28th at ten pm eastern on hbo. do not miss it, we'll be right back. ight back but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪ >> 2023 has been playing with at bombas we make the comfiest socks, underwear, and t-shirts that feel good and most of all do good. because when you purchase one, we donate one to those in need. visit bombas.com and shop our big holiday sale. bombas. give the good. our minds and much of this italy's. we see you, 2023. but there are still so many reasons the potential. most importantly,'s family. and this, year i am thankful for the giant, enormous family get together that will be having tomorrow. cannot wait to eat, drink and be merry with people i love. here is watching all of you a heaping helping of peace and joy and the food that you love, especially since so many in the deeply challenged world will be missing out on all of the above this thanksgiving. that is tonight's read out. all in with chris hayes that serena. >> tonight on all in -- >> it's