>> hey, everyone, it is 4:00 in new york. the question of when donald trump's rhetoric crosses the line was a subject of a bit of a lips as pivotal court hearing. prosecutors and attorneys met in front of a three-judge panel in the u.s. court of appeal for a d.c. circuit for oral arguments. the substance was the validity of a gag order imposed on the ex-president that limits what donald trump can say in public about prosecutors, witnesses, and court staff. the heart of arguments, how do you balance the first amendment rights of a defendant who was also a former president and front runner with the need to protect prosecutors, witnesses, and prevent the railing of the justice system? trump's attorney was grilled by the judges for more than an hour, judges pushed back, that they had no right to step in with a gag order. >> essentially what they are finding is we have a past pattern when the defendant speaks on this subject, threats follow. now he's making similar statements again where months out from the trial. this is protectively going to intensify as well as the threats. why is the district court justified in taking a proactive measure not waiting for more and more threats to actively occur, and stepping in to protect the integrity of the trial? >> the pile also did not -- panel did not bide donald trump as a presidential candidate, there are no restraints to what he says in public. >> i don't hear you give any weight at all to the interest of a fair trial, am i right that you don't, simply because the defendant is a presidential candidate and he wants to speak on anything he wants to speak. he basically indiscriminately wants to post on social media, that there can be no restraint of his speech. any restraint, no matter how tight is excess protecting affair trial is overcome by campaign interest. >> speech at issue and criminal trial are deeply intertwined. >> the special counsel team did not get off either with jack smith in the courtroom, they defended the gag order and set a trump's quote well- established practice going after anyone he deems as in his way is a quote significant and immediate risk to the fairness and integrity of these proceedings. the judges pushed back on the scope of the gag order, the ruling is expected in the coming days but is likely to be another legal battle that can sooner or later wind up before the supreme court. that's where we start today with former u.s. assistant attorney, he was inside the courtroom for today's hearing. former chairman at the rnc, michael steele is with us at the table. nbc legal analyst lisa ruben. you were in the courtroom today, what do you make of the judges line of questioning? >> alicea, we that we would be there for a 40 minute argument for two hours and 20 minutes, we came out. i will tell you, it was a spirited discussion. the judges did not let either party off easily, they had very pointed questions, they seemed skeptical of donald trump's lawyer and the lawyer from jack smith's team. i can pretty much sum up what john sauer, donald trump's lawyer argued and maintained throughout his argument. he basically said because everything donald trump says and post is in his words core political speech, there can be no prior restraint. there can be no gag order on -- unless donald trump speech is directly threatening of a witness such that it would violate the federal law section 1512 witness tampering. the judges were having none of it, you just played a clip from judge garcia saying something that the other judge said. let me quote her, there is a clear pattern of donald trump issuing statements and witness threats following, then she pointed to what she said is the accepted principle of law that people intend the national and probable consequences of their actions. it was pretty clear they were not going to let donald trump get away with his code of talking. they were going to likely find there was some balance to be struck in favor of restraining, perhaps very narrowly some of what donald trump is permitted to say and post about, witnesses and perhaps about court staff. you got a little dicier when it came to the questioning that they had for the prosecution's attorney about well, why can't they talk about not only jack smith but members of the prosecution team if donald trump's assertion is that this is a political prosecution, why should they be prohibited from talking about not only jack smith but other prosecutors, and naming them? it was spirited on both sides and i will tell you, i walked out of there not knowing or being confident of precisely what these three court judges may end up ruling. >> talk this through the factors at play, what it is the judges are trying to weigh. one is the first amendment right, two political speech, the other is a constitutional right which impacts the integrity of the justice process. when they expect versus express concern for the safety of jurors, they are concerned as people. their safety and security is secondary to the right constitutionally to have a fair trial. can you have a fair trial if witnesses and jurors feel intimidated or of jurors get the wrong perception of particular witnesses because donald trump day in and day out is posting about them? the judges are trying to calibrate that balance. i agree with glenn, while they are likely to uphold some form of gag order or signal their approval for one. it's not going to be the form it was issued in, it will be a narrower one. >> let's talk about the way it could be narrowed, there seems to be a lot of questioning today , something general millie, former vice president mike pence . versus people who may not have that same type of public platform. how that impacts testimony, that public person, not public person as potentially being one of the ways the judges use to continue to refine this gag order. >> you are exactly right because that was a subject of debate and discussion, a very pointed questioning when it came to jack smith and his team and the arguments they were making, the judges said listen, if bill barr, a public figure holds a press conference and says donald trump lied about x, y, and z, should he be free to respond with and i'm going to use the language of the hypothetical let one of the judges posed that he is a quote slimy liar, then the discussion actually i'm going to use the word evolved into a debate of whether bill barr accuses donald trump of being a liar, can donald trump call bill barr a liar? i think that prompted perhaps the only chuckle in the courtroom when the attorney for jack smith said perhaps he could say he is an untruthful person but not a liar. i'm not quite sure what the distinction is, you're exactly right. they had posts about public figures, isn't it only fair like public figures, bill barr, millie and others will make accusations against donald trump setting aside who is telling the truth and who is not, should it donald trump respond? i think they were trying to distinguish public figures from the witnesses in the case in the court staff who the judges said does he really have a right to start naming or as he did in new york, post a picture of a court clerk so it does seem like they will have to engage in some line drawing and give some direction back to the trial court judge about the constitutional do's and don'ts of a permissible gag order. >> let's talk about political speech, a gag order can serve as a prophylactic to prevent threats. what does it say that this is the conversation that these judges are having in the lead up to this trial and to 2024? >> it's tied into a knot, this is all deliberate behavior. it's all about trying to bend the system to his well, to his direction. confusing political speech with what donald trump is saying. one of the big distinctions for me, i really appreciate the way glenda laid that out. at the end of the day, what the judges -- the data here is the thread, the actions that followers take when they hear the hot rhetoric coming from him, what trump is using is extensively using the first amendment to wrap himself in to say that i can say these things and that i'm not responsible for any of the consequences that come because it is all political. it's not. the person who -- goes after a judge or goes after a clerk, or a prosecutor stocks them at home is no different than yelling fire in a crowded theater. there is a consequence from your words. people are harmed or potentially harmed, that is what the system is trying to safeguard against protecting his rights at the same time trying to protect the rest of us from him. that is really what it boils down to, that's the balancing act that the court finds itself in trying to strike this unique balance because we have a political actor who is distorting what is otherwise in the past been when it comes to behavior and politicians. >> i want to pick up on what he said there, we know the pattern of behavior and yet in the courtroom today, there had to be a reliance of hypotheticals. i want you to listen to a quick exchange. >> the fendant shall not communicate with witnesses, release condition. you keep talking about directly communicate. so is it your position that if he communicates through a social media post, hey. witness ask -- x, i knowthe prosecutor is bothering you trying to get you to say bad things about me, be a patriot. don'actreasonous lee, don't cooperate. >> i am not,it is really, i want an answer to your understanding of the release conditions, this for the record a hythical question. apparently to owledge he has not happened, i want to understand how you, because you said first amendment problem with the release condition. okay, so i have asked you that question. does that communication violate the release condition? >> it is the social media posts, that is a direct communication towitness could well violated. >> no, i'm giving you exactly the content of communication. i don't know much more you want, i'm giving you the text. >> striking to me that a panel that seems really attempted to be dispassionate also got irritated at multiple points with trumps team inability to reckon with hypotheticals. this hypothetical in this case, this premised on a lot of behavior we have already watched in real time. >> absolutely, let me go back to something you said earlier which is that there is a lot of reliance on hypotheticals because there was not real world experience with this sort of and results. that's not entirely true at one point, john fowler kept saying. the kind of threats the special counsel office is siding, they have not happened for the last three years. at one point, judge bradley garcia pushed him and said what about abigail shrike? a texas woman who called the judges chambers, made a vicious threat and is now in federal detention having been arrested and indicted. john sauer tried to push abigail to the side and said that woman is mentally unstable, she has substance abuse problems. she sits on her couch all day long by her father's own admission, watches cable news all day long. she can get that information from social media and in every way possible try to minimize and distinguish. you and i both know that everything that is said by donald trump is amplified and republished 1 million times over including the kinds of channel that we are on right now. although we try not to re- platform him. more importantly, how does john sauer know that abigail is the only person capable of calling the judge in making a threat like that? or calling any other witness or participant, the answer, he doesn't. that's precisely why the special counsel feels this gag order is necessary. >> we are talking about language that is arguably in some cases subjective, i want you to take a listen at a bit of arguments by the attorney for the justice department and we will talk onthe other side. >> postindictment once he knew that general millie was a potential trial witness, was very different than whathi reaction was in 2021 when he was not a potential trial witness against him. so pretty much once there is an indictment, he can't, he's really under his order, he can't say anything about folks who are either known or reasonably foreseeable weaknesses. -- witnesses. >> i disagree. >> what can he say? >> i think there's a perfectly comprehendible line between the sorts of things that use inflammatory language. >> can he say anything disparaging, you just said inflammatory. so take off inflammatory. is he allowed to say anything disparaging about someone, will make it easy that he knows is going to be a witness. now that there's been an indictment between now and the trial, obviously the trial is a different thing. >> i think you can criticize them as long as he's not using inflammatory langwood are attacking credibility in a way that's going to shape how the jury sees them. that's another example of trying the case in the media. >> talk about the first part of that, unknown unknown person. how do you distinguish to the latter part of that between disparaging and inflammatory comments? >> first of all, i don't even know that we need to get there. we can talk what about what happens, when you go back to january 6. think about what donald trump posted about mike pence, it was perhaps minimally disparaging but it certainly was not threatening. what he said is that mike pence did not have the courage to do what he should've done. how did his followers respond? the immediately began hunting for mike pence and broke out in chance of hanging mike pence. i think that's almost folly to pars donald trump's words, are they disparaging or threatening. what they know is that they are received by his supporters and not just this texas woman, i'm glad lisa brought that up because the judges very pointedly said one day, two days after he was indicted. the issues some post that says if you come after me, i'm coming after you. this woman in texas seemingly responding to that threatens the life of the judge and her family. donald trump does not need to threaten people. he can speak in code and the message is sent loud and clear. so, the other thing i found it interesting about the latter part of that statement you played from the attorney on jack smith's team is he actually seemed to kind of contradict part of what the judges order had put in place, because remember her order said you cannot talk about the witnesses or substance of their testimony, it seemed like he was backpedaling and said well, you can talk about the witnesses as long as you were not overtly disparaging. i think the argument will result in something far narrower being approved by the three-judge panel, being sent back to the judge to perhaps take another crack at a more limited gag order. >> i wonder, michael as you listen to all this brilliant legal analysis, how do you see it playing out politically, this conversation about a gag order and the possibility of a heading to the supreme court? >> if i'm called in front of a judge and i say something disparaging, i'm going to claim free speech political commentary. we see a whole different standard for this guy, we are contorting ourselves in ways that we ordinarily would not have. where do we have this conversation, where do we have to do this? even when glenn and others were prosecuting high profile mobsters. you did not have to do was love -- this level of crap. a lot of us americans are looking at this in saying what are we doing here? the guy needs to shut his mouth up, he needs to obey what the judge tells them to do and do it but he doesn't. everybody falls all over themselves to try to fix it because they don't have to get sideways with the constitution or sideways with him. it's kind of black lettering in one sense, be quiet. don't say anything about a judge's clerk, i don't know how complicated that is. here we are. when i say this the other night, this is the best advice i could give. put him in jail if he keeps running his mouth, because that's where i would be. that's where you would be, that's where glenn would be if you followed the gag order, we would not have stuff all the way up to the supreme court through the appellate process. we would not be able to make first amendment arguments because the judge told us to shut up. just understand why we are in this moment and how much more difficult this is going to get because this is being contorted for a reason, dragging this process out, pushing to the heart of the selection and make people think things that are not true, come to conclusions that are not relevant in a room -- ultimately benefit donald trump, that's what we are seeing that we are seeing right now, that's about all i got. >> it gives them occasion to go back to his favorite line which is it is not about me, it's about -- >> glenn kirschner, lisa rubin as always. thank you for spending time with us, when we come back, raffle tickets, lunch specials, grassroots fundraising all conducted by supporters in georgia, we are also talking the prosecutor in the case, lawmakers using newly released january 6th footage. even calling for a new committee, new subpoenas, investigating the investigators. talking about efforts to change the subject with what happened with former member of the congressional committee and remembering rosalynn carter. she was more than a first lady, looking at a different she had on this nation that continues after this. do not go anywhere. anywhere. >> everyone knew everything he did, we were born and raised and still live in plains, georgia. it has a population of 683. everyone has always known everything. everything. ♪ ♪ we're building a better postal service. for more on-time deliveries. and easier, affordable ways to ship. so you can deliver even more holiday joy. the united states postal service. delivering for america. febreze! hi. i keep my home fresh with febreze fade defy plug. and i use this. febreze has a microchip to digitally control how much scent is released so it doesn't fade. ooh. does mine have a microchip? 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(vo) black friday starts now. turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. the power goes out and we still have wifi only on verizon. to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. we start with a story that is still developing. is there a big information gap between what we know and what the government knows? one of these things is not like the other, finally we start to get answers. get answers. as he faces down four criminal trials, ex-president donald trump has been waging his own more in the court of public opinion, attacking any prosecutor or government official that tries to hold them accountable. according to a new reporting in georgia, he's getting health in the state republican party. the constitution rights quote donald trump's allies in georgia are working to undermine fulton county's election interference case far from the courtroom by opening new fronts on the airwaves, under the gold dome and at republican gatherings around the state. >> on saturday, ground zero for the fight was outside a reformation brewery in atlanta's exurbs. where a group called the georgia patriot legal defense fund sold $30 lunch combos and raffle tickets to float the legal fees for trump's and the remaining co- defendants in fulton's far- reaching case. joining our conversation, washington correspondent for the atlantic journal- constitution is here. michael is back with us. your colleague reported on this effort from the georgia republican party, tell us about the effort to focus on the states energy attacking. >> the effort serves a few purposes, number one, money, trumpet and currently 14 other co-defendants all have legal fees. and attorneys, so the state parties through these related groups are hoping to raise money for their legal defense. we also know that part of trump's message to his supporters has always been you know, that he represents them and attacks on him are attacks on you. we are seeing that message applied to his case in georgia. this, what we are talking about today is another extension of that. speaking to those trump's supporters, those macro republicans. they are saying this prosecution, these charges that trump and his allies are facing are more evident of the attacks on trump. that seems to work to continue to build support among support. we have republicans in georgia carrying the water. >> it's as tia illustrates, where the movement is now grown a little bit beyond the man. it's not just a matter of supporting trump but supporting his vast and growing network of people they know there's more of this to come. there's people they engage in, the system as long as it stands the way it does. they will try to come back with liberalism. you start these narratives varies is likely very precisely and very personal. they are very personal narratives. this is not just about me, it's about you. it's about what is going to happen to you, that response to pick a random issue. where the person is somehow connected draws them in, they may not be focused on the other situation or the audiotapes, but now suddenly they have a different understanding of the very thing that they heard before. and see it very differently, they see it the way they want to see it because they help make this emotional connection which stands to that. the grip, i'm going to protect you from them. >> one of a lunch for 30 bucks, the atlanta journal- constitution piece also says this about the line. the pushback against them comes despite vocal warnings. they each to warn fellow icans not to weapon lies a new state commission against willis. he won't stand by if republicans are engaging in political theater the only engage in the moment, to build up a rival political network that has in some ways already eclipsed the gop. talk about that dynamic. it's really interesting. he started working with the gop after the 2020 election when it was clear he was going to have to run for re-election in 2022. with the party apparatus led by a debt collector, david shafer that was leaning into again the nihilism man trumpism. smartly worked around them and it really benefited him in 2022. we really see an interesting dynamic as much as he has been willing to stand up to election the nihilism and say there is nothing wrong, he did sign into law that new voting line georgia that was based on some of the misinformation and undermining of the election system that republicans created. he also signed into law the bill this year that created the commission that would allow people to launch investigations on prosecutors. i don't want this to be politicized, i don't want people just going after prosecutors they don't like like bonnie willis, he signed into law the bill that made it possible, he goes there to a certain point but he sees members of his party perhaps going further than he would like , he will stop but you know, there is some synergy to a point, i know that cannot be missed. >> as i often say trying to have his trumpet and eat it too. also a first for this country, a judge ruling in american president did take part in an insurrection. there was no consequences for the courtroom but will other judges follow suit? we will talk about that next. n in a crisis caused by a terrorist massacre. warning civilians to clear out, while hamas forces them back. allowing in food and water, which hamas steals. 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supreme court orb the u.s. supreme court. joining us now, former deputy assistant attorney general and former u.s. attorney, harry littman. former clerk to judge sonja, melissa murray. michael steele was also back. i want to read what you wrote about this ruling today. the latest opinion denying a challenge donald trump's eligibility for running to president has issued a lot of teeth gnashing. in the word of colorado's secretary of state, gave trump a get out of jail free card for insurrection. it is understandable but shortsighted. the opinion by colorado district judge sarah wallace is a giant step toward disqualifying him from the valid. explain to me the giant step here. >> the giant step is a determination on the fact that he engaged in insurrection without that kind of determination by some trial court. he held a one-week hearing with evidence and witnesses, there would be no way to set this up to the united states supreme court or this colorado supreme court which everyone understands and make a final determination, all courts shy away from that now. now we have necessary steps that they made. that sets the table very well for the one legal issue that she raised to be decided in another way by an appellate court and therefore have the claim potentially. there are other issues, but potentially endorsed. >> this is from this network over the weekend. >> he suggested that this was a narrow interpretation of section 3. it is that and more, it is the risk is possible interpretation of section 3. it is the interpretation urged on the court by the former president's lawyers. it is simply incorrect as a matter of constitutional law. >> melissa, how thin do you think this lifeline is that the judge through trump? it's very a narrow interpretation section 3. >> i think it is important to remember that this was an issue of first impression, we had very little caselaw of the meaning of section 3 of the 14th amendment. like other provisions, there's a lot that can be open to interpretation about what the terms of that constitution need, we have seen over the last two years some debate of the meaning of the right to abortion as it proceeds the 14 amendment, this was a district court judge in the state court, not the federal court, i think she recognizes she was in an enviable position having to weigh in on an issue of first impression. she did this surgically, and narrowly. the substantive question that there was incitement and it was not intended speech. now we have the bigger question, i think there's lots of good arguments on either side. she has said this particular provision does not specifically enumerate the president of the united states as an officer of the united states, there are certain provisions and interests around principles that suggest the framers of the 14th amendment would have included the president, this would go on, it would appeal to the state supreme court and then on to the united states supreme court. not the last word at all. >> i want to ask you the same question but from different vantage points. i'm going to ask you for your legal analysis on this question, how important it was for the judge to establish that trump is actually guilty of engaging in a disqualifying insurrection. >> this is i think a very big deal as harry has suggested, this is the first time that we have had a judge say this explicitly. there was some discussion of the earlier case where a federal judge noted for the purposes of attorney-client privilege he committed a crime. this is someone saying he incited an insurrection, jack smith never charged donald trump with insurrection or seditious conspiracy as was the case with people like stuart rosen. we don't actually have a charge of inciting insurrection against donald trump, this is the first official body to actually say that. it is meaningful for that reason. >> the same question politically speaking. >> i think politically it is very relevant, the republicans will ignore it because it is part of the deep state conspiracy against trump, that is going to be his judge's conclusion because he or she works for the deep state. i think in a political sense, even among rational republicans such that they still exist. they see what this says and how it will be used in the upcoming presidential cycle is going to be interesting, there is so many other legal cases going on and so many legal cases where this can be lost. the next step, another layer of conversation that unfolds around this idea that the judges put into the judicial thinking. the president engaged in insurrection's behavior, it could have a ripple effect in other areas legally. this could feed into political, we will see. >> let's talk about those layers, you talked about the possibility of going to the supreme court and your sense of the likelihood of that happening. >> colorado, what is left is this teeny legal question. a supreme court can decide the same way however it's gone, if the supreme court affirms what she's done on fax and they defer to that on the fax and also change the opinion on officer, it's going like a bullet to the supreme court if they do not honor the claim, the supreme court will probably leave it. >> harry pittman, melissa murray, michael steele. thank you all for spending time with us. up next, how georgia is remembering one of their own. former first lady and a champion of community service, rosalynn carter. we will be right back. back. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, 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will be just a hostess. see she spent her life advocating for the causes she believed in including habitat for humanity, eldercare, childhood immunization, global peace and he stigmatizing mental health. >> if somebody is hurting, they need healthcare it does not matter if it's the mind or body, they are all one. this is something that we have to -- >> tributes have poured in from leaders around the world honoring her incredible achievements, none touching than from her husband, former president jimmy carter. roly was my equal partner in everything i ever accomplished, she gave me guidance and encouragement when i needed it, as long as she was in the world, i always knew i was loved and supported. tia mitchell is back in joining us as princeton university professor. from your perch in georgia, talk to us about the impact of rosa linn carter. -- rosalynn carter. >> it is mostly in georgia, it's vast among american history. the office of the first lady having to rethink what the role of a president spouse should be. in georgia, she's not the former first lady of the united states. she's the states former first lady. she's someone who was born and raised in georgia. she and the former president literally never left their roots. they were born and raised in plains, georgia. they only left to live in a governor's mansion or the white house. they always returned to plains. that's where she spent her final days and quite frankly, that's where she well rest after she's buried right there at her home in plains. >> such an ability to have heart and moral clarity, and to connect that to the work and service of being part of the first family. >> absolutely, she brought the full weight and gravitas of what it means to be from the south, to be a southern lady with intelligence and power. she lived an extraordinary life and of course, that love story is one we need to kind of be reminded of of this age of transaction. where people seem to be using each other for their own gain, i have a special relationship with the former first lady. she's an honorary degree from my alma mater. the fourth woman i think to receive an honorary degree. she delivered the commencement address, there were protests outside of martin luther king chapel. a prose -- protest inside because there was deep disappointment in the carter administration and black chapel and with grace and dignity delivered a commencement speech and defended the record of jimmy carter. there's that connection. not only is she the former first lady of the nation, former first lady of georgia, she's also an honorary graduate of morehouse college. >> it strikes me the number of times you were able to reference grace and dignity, grace and dignity incavernate. tia mitchell, thank you for spending time with us. eddie, you are sticking around. a quick break for us. when we come back, a huge blow to voting rights in this country. that story when we come back. that story when we come back and did all i could to prevent 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panel of federal appeals court judges ruled on a key enforcement mechanism of the voting rights act. finding that in seven states only the federal government can bring legal challenges under section 2 of the act. if it stands, the ruling would bar private citizens and cil rights groups from challenging racially gerrymandered congressiona maps. the ruling stems from an arkansas redistricting case in which the arkansas state conference, naacp and the arkansas public policy panel have challenged a republican-drawn map. the panel affirmed a lower court decision that only u.s. attorneys general have the power to sue under section 2. today's decision defies decades of precedent and will almost certainly be appealed to the supreme court. we're back with eddie. eddie, what does it mean for people to no longer be able to sue under the voting rights act? >> well, it certainly suggests that there's another -- this is another means or a way or pathway for them to gut our ability to check racism in our election system. think about what happened in north carolina. think about north carolina's naacp challenging those gerrymandered districts. think about what's happened in texas and across the south. whenever we find ourselves unsettled by who we are, the contradictions of the country, our past swallowing us up whole, we engage in this tricky magic-a listia. and it's a tricky magic that allows us to find comfort in an old, noxious and insydious view of who we are. this is just another attempt to, shall we say, tie us back to this old idea that america's a white nation in the old vein of europe -- in the vein of old europe. it's a sad day. >> i've only got about a minute left, but it strikes me the trump gag order, the 14th amendment, now this voting rights act. the number of stories that are pushing towards the supreme court really gives you a sense of the moment we are living in. >> absolutely. and we know who sits on the supreme court. so we need to brace ourselves. the gusts, the winds, the headwinds of the storm are getting stronger. and we need to understand what these forces are actually up to. and they're trying in so many ways to turn the clock back. and if we don't understand that for what it is, we will stand by and be complicit as we find ourselves falling down this dark, dark hole. this is just the latest attempt. and like i said, alicia, it's that tricky magic in which we deal with the contradictions and who we take ourselves to be, it seems to me. >> eddie is staying with us. when we come back, maga extremists in washington again trying to rewrite the events of january 6th. congresswoman zoe lofgren joins us next. do not go anywhere. we'll be right back. right back. has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call 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outlet bargain market can you confirm that the fbi had that sort of engagement with your own agents embedded within to the crowd on january 6th? >> if you are asking whether the violence at the capitol on january 6th was part of some operation orchestrated by fbi sources and/or agents, the answer is emphatically no -- >> you're saying no? >> no. not violence orchestrated by fbi sources or agents. >> hi, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. the answer is emphatically no. just last week that is how fbi director christopher wray responded to a republican congressman pushing the widely debunked conspiracy that fbi agents were among the january 6th rioters. that conspiracy has circulated for years on the far right but has never been met with any evidence to prove it. and yet, as we heard from congressman clay higgins at a worldwide threats hearing no less, that's what some republican lawmakers want to spend their time asking about. it does not stop there. this weekend senator mike lee of utah spread more misinformation about the same unfounded theory. on the platform formerly known as twitter lee on his personal account when after former january 6th select comtt member liz cheney responding to a video of the riot she posted saying "p.s., how many of these guys are feds? as if you'd ever tell us." he then repoeted former west virginia legislate osh and january 6th rioter whoquestioned if a diffent rioter in a video wa quote, flashing a badge. about that suggestion lee wrote, "i can't wait to ask fbi director christopher wray about this at our next oversight hearing. i predict that as always his answers will be 97% infoation-free." congresswoman marjorie taylor greene pounced on that badge conspiracy as well. although she ended up deleting the part of her post that mentioned it. she did, however, keep up with the part of the message calling for another january 6th select committee saying "prosecutions must happen under a trump doj" and that "maga is not responsible for 1/6." no. we don't like to amplify lies on this program, but we need to call them out when those spouting them are so clearly, as nicolle likes to put it, onning earth two. the man lee and green thought was carrying a badge? he was actually carrying an e-cigarette. he's currently serving a four-year prison sentence for his role on the 6th. regarding greene's claim that maga did not do this, just listen to the rioters in their own words on that day. >> we were invited here! we were invited by the president of the united states! >> we are listening to trump! >> donald trump, yes! dude! dude, let's tell trump what's up. >> trump would be very upset. >> no. just say we love him. we love you, bro. he'd be happy. what do you mean? we're fighting for trump. >> in response to senator lee cheney called out his hypocrisy wring, "you're a laer mike. you're capable of understanding the scores of january 6th verdicts and rulings in our federal courts. you didn't object to electors on january 6th because you knew what trump was doing was unconstitutional and you know what you're doing now is wrong." these posts by republicans come after new speaker of the house mike johnson said on friday he will release all 44,000 hours of january 6th security footage to the public. joining our conversation, democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren of california. she served on the january 6th select committee. congresswoman, thank you for being with us. when asked for comment from nbc a spokesman for senator lee dodged the question about the man with the vape or the e cigarette and then listed questions about other rioters. you were part of the bipartisan congressional panel that investigated the insurrection. you studied this day thoroughly. what do you say back to your republican colleagues? >> well, i'm really embarrassed for them. many of them were evacuated along with me. they know that this was not a normal day of tourists visiting. they know that more than 160 police officers were injured. some so seriously that they had to leave the force. and they know that hundreds of these rioters have been convicted by a jury of their peers because of the overwhelming evidence. i guess they must think their supporters are dumb, that they will somehow convince them that what happened didn't happen. you know, don't believe your lying eyes. it's really -- it's really pathetic. >> let's talk about one of the supporters that was convicted. a closer look at the man lee and greene falsely said was holding a badge. his name is kevin lyons. on the 6th he stole a framed photo of congressman john lewis. he stole a staffer's wallet from then speaker nancy pelosi's office. at his sentencing hearing he acknowledged his wrongdoing, calling himself an idiot and stupid. he's now serving four years in federal prison. so if he was an undercover fbi agent, as mike lee would like to have you believe, it would seem he did a pretty bad job. the information is all out there, as liz cheney says, and mike lee is an attorney. so he if anyone, he knows better. >> he should know better. and you know, recently, the former president was trying to put a spin on his interest on that day of going to the capitol by saying that had he gone you know, his supporters that were the rioters would have stopped. so even the former president realized that these were his people. when he called in to kevin mccarthy during the riot, trying to say something else, kevin said no, these are your people. it's obvious. it's true. and for the life of me i can't understand how people who were evacuated along with me, who saw what was happening, can try and spin this at this late date in some other way. it's bizarre. >> your point about things being bizarre, the current speaker mike johnson said he's going to post all 44,000 hours, 44,000 hours of security footage from 1/6 so the public can see it. i, one, want to know what you think is motivating the speaker. and two, having pored over these videos, talk to us about the decision-making that went into what you shows and what you didn't. >> well, you'd have to ask mike what his motivation is. but it looks like he's trying to cozy up to the right-wing nut case caucus. in the republican house members. we published what was cleared by the capitol police. they had a very high level of anxiety about the security obviously at the facility and the people in it. and they wanted to make sure that by showing certain clips we weren't giving bad guys information. and so we were very cautious and we did defer to law enforcement on what would be hazardous to our security in terms of releasing information. i think what the speaker is doing is unwise. i think it will likely jeopardize the security of the facility and all the members of the house and senate within it along with tourists who come visit us, real tourists. i don't think it's responsible. and i really can't understand how someone who's supposed to be a steward of the house would do something so reckless. >> well, there's the question of releasing the footage. there's also this question of substantiating a core set of facts that we can all agree on. and we are now, you know better than most, almost three years out from the capitol insurrection. and still three years out these debunked conspiracies, they are being spread not just by the far reaches of the internet but by republicans in congress, by people who collect a paycheck from u.s. citizens. how can we move forward? right? how can we as a country evolve if people don't listen to the basic facts? >> well, regrettably there are some republicans, certainly not all, who are down a conspiracy rat hole. they're as crazy as other people, believing in qanon and a lot of other nonsense. they got elected. so they're a member of congress. you sort of wonder why voters would choose somebody to stand up for them who has such a small grip with reality. but there's our situation. we have some members. to say it's fringe is to be kind. they really don't have a grip on reality. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren, as always, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. i want to bring into this conversation writer at large for the bulwark and an msnbc political analyst tim miller. plus princeton university professor and msnbc contributor eddie glaude is back. and with me at the table former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the u.s. department of justice, mary mccord. tim, liz cheney called out mike lee, saying he knows what he's claiming is wrong. why are these republicans, why is someone like mike lee digging themselves in deeper with the conspiracies? >> well, you should probably have a psychotherapist on the show to answer that question, alicia. but my armchair diagnosis is that guys like mike lee see the writing on the wall, that donald trump's going to be the nominee again and they need to figure out ways to rationalize it. they need to figure out ways to rationalize it to themselves, signing up for something again that they know is wrong, that they know is dangerous. they need to cozy up to his supporters. i don't know what mike lee's aspirations are, whether that may be in a potential next trump administration or if he has future other aspirations. but i think staying in the good graces of maga is part of what he's doing. and i think he's also resentful of his democratic and the handful of never trump republican colleagues that have the moral high ground on this. here's the one thing that it's not. like mike lee cannot possibly believe that the feds did january 6th. it is the stupidest conspiracy out there in a whole range of stupid conspiracies. you know, and to be tricked into thinking a guy holding a vape pen is actually an fbi agent just exceeds the bounds of idiocy. and even -- sometimes just to explain how stupid these conspiracies are it's best to just -- let's take it at face value. let's say that mike lee believes this. what is the theory exactly? there were five, six, ten fbi officials there on january 6th shouting "let's go into the capitol, let's do it?" then what about the hundreds of other people that speared cops? you couldn't put ten fbi agents inside the women's march, for example, on january 17 and say let's charge the white house and have a bunch of people in pink hats then start using bear mace to attack -- the whole thing is preposterous. had donald trump not been -- had donald trump just conceded like any normal politician, had donald trump not stirred up a mob of his supporters, then there wouldn't have been an attack on the capitol. there was nothing for the fbi to orchestrate. donald trump orchestrated out in plain view. so mike lee knows this. he's a constitutional lawyer. he's not an idiot. so the only explanation for why he's doing this is, you know, to deal with his own guilt and shame over going along with this or to cozy up to the far right, and maybe a little bit of both. >> tim, in the absence of a psychotherapy degree i have to say you did a fantastic job right there. and here's the thing, mary, which is the stakes are exceptionally high. right? this isn't just about looking backwards and litigating what happened on 1/6 that is in and of itself incredibly important. it's also about our future national security, which they don't seem to care about. >> i think the whole reason we're hearing these kind of disinformation or just outright lies and conspiracy theories is because we are facing a situation where donald trump is likely to be the republican nominee and people feel like they have got to go along with the same lies and disinformation and conspiracy theories that he's been promoting, which is shameful for all the reasons that guests have already said and zoe lofgren, representative lofgren probably better than anyone. but it's also dangerous. first of all the release of all these many, many thousands of hours of video, you know, really could expose vulnerabilities at the capitol. and i can say as the person who was legal counsel to the immediate after-action task force that investigated the security of the white house, led by general honore, you know, part of the whole point of that was to make sure nothing like this could happen again. make sure that the capitol had better security than what we saw on january 6th. and that doesn't just mean better police forces. that means windows that are secure, hallways that are secure, ability to track where members are. you know, those kind of things. and to expose every single corridor and exit, evacuation route to the public, that's dangerous, number one. number two, with respect to denigrating the fbi and suggesting in really a ridiculous theory that he was holding his badge -- first of all, even if he was fbi undercover, why would he be showing his badge, satellite that sort of defeats the entire purpose of being undercover. but you know, we've already seen fbi attacked after donald trump ex-corr yates them. this is playing again to this we're the victim. right? the department of justice has been weaponized, the fbi, which i've worked with my entire career until the last six years, is not exactly a bastion of like deep state liberalism. you know? these are generally a lot of pretty conservative law enforcement officers. regardless of their actual politics. they're conservative law enforcement. and we know from director wray that threats against fbi have gone up something like 300% since the mar-a-lago search warrant. and they have an entire office now dedicated to investigating threats against the fbi. >> but isn't that part of the scramble, mary, that he's trying to create, which is it's no longer about liberal and conservative, it's about inside and out as defined by him? >> clearly that's the case. because he's not parsing with the reality of who would be likely to be sort of a democrat versus a republican. it's like deep state, deep state, deep state. and you know, hearing some of the talk about what he would do if he were to win the presidency and who he would go after and then to see these others are not capitol hill, marjorie taylor greene in that tweet or whatever we call these things now, that social media post, that basically says doj must prosecute. this is what authoritarians do. this is what dictators do. they seek to take power so they can prosecute their enemies. and you know, that's -- talk about a national security threat, that's why our allies and partners and the global environment other than dictators are so worried about this next election. >> well, and i would add to that concern, eddie, that idea of not having an agreed-upon set of facts. i want to post you the same question i posed to the congressman, which is if we're at a point where you have one party that doesn't believe a violent coup was attempted or at least that is what they are repeating on a loop. how can we move forward when we're not agreeing on the same set of facts and those same set of facts are not being shared with voters? >> we really can't unless we move forward on the basis of power and power alone. at the heart of democracy is the ability of everyday ordinary people to agree on the background conditions that will allow them to disagreerks so that we all have the information to engage in the argument and the back and forth, that flood of talk that's necessary for democracies to flourish. that's necessary for us to self-governor. if we don't have those sets of conditions in place, then what rules is a will to power. and i think it's very important to understand this. tim is right to say, as he brilliantly psychoanalyzed senator lee, to say it's probably cynicism or guilt. but what we see here is that donald trump is not a lone actor-a listia. we tend to focus on him as the villain. when in fact there are a whole host of actors. whether you describe them as insane or crazy or stupid or whether you describe them as cynical, engaged in a will to power. it's the convergence of all of these actors that have actually placed our democracy and threat -- under threat. so we need to understand that for what it is. >> let's pick up on that thread, mary, this idea of actors. let me name check one. marjorie taylor greene. in her tweet she said, "criminal referrals must be written and prosecutions must happen under a trump doj." this is their vision of what the future looks like. >> that's right. and criminal referrals for what, exactly? prosecutions for what exactly? that goes unnamed because it's part of what, you know, they've never been able to identify anything. but the danger there is that's exactly what trump will try to do with the department of justice. i mean, we've heard from project 2025, some reporting also from "new york times," "washington post" and others of people they are talking about as an attorney general including people who are supporting the conspiracy theories including potentially jeffrey clark, who is indicted for his role in january 6th and what led to january 6th. so this is a very dangerous turn of events. now, i maintain some hope that some of these nominees would never get through the senate. but we know in the past donald trump abused the acting appointment, having people in acting capacity. and so if we see him in the white house again i think we can see him using that again. >> we're going to talk about one of those potential a.g.s a little later in the show. eddie glaude, as always, thank you for spending m time with us. tim and mary, you are staying with me. when we return, why so many top aides to the disgraced ex-president say he should never return to the white house again. what they're doing to ensure that it does not happen. after a short break. plus a live report from the middle east where israel is offering more evidence of what it says are hamas tunnels beneath a besieged hospital. and the trump civil fraud trial continues this week in new york. what happened in court on day 32, later in the hour. 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"i learned how deep the deep state is," he recently told donors at an event. so tim, your primary concern about a trump who is theoretically now more verse in the levers of politics. >> it is my primary concern. i think there's -- we can talk about that more if you like but if you don't mind i would like to speak to the kelly question. >> please. >> about whether this is something we can do and should do. i was a political director for republican voters against trump last time in 2020. we begged people like john kelly to get involved and to run ads and to speak out. a handful of folks did. olivia troye is on this network. a lot of folks declined or wrote one op-ed. here's the thing. if any of these people are watching the show, to john kelly, to h.r. mcmaster, one cable hit and one atlantic interview is not going to do the trick. yes, these people who were around trump and saw the threat and can speak to the threat they can move the needle but they do need to work together and they do need to be part of a campaign to stop him. and it's not going to be easy. and it's not going to be -- and if you complain i only have half a day's bounce, that's because you only did one interview. we have a very real threat in front of us with donald trump. we can speak to what project 2025 says. so the response needs to be up to the degree of the threat. and i haven't seen that from a lot of the people who went to work for him, who are dismayed. and i think that there could be a very compelling, very convincing, very effective campaign to stop him from the people who were in his cabinet last time. but they're going to have to roll up their sleeps sleeves and do some work and not just sit on one panel at aspen and think that's going to do the job. >> right. a campaign is an effort that is actually sustained. i want to ask you, tim, our msnbc colleague mehdi hassan last night, he previewed some of the people trump might be considering for a potential cabinet. among themawye mike davis. in response to that segment davis then tweeted "trump's dream team. hassan is now on my list to indict, detain, denaturalize and deport. i already have his spot picked oud.c. gulag but i'll put him in the women's cell block with tim miller so these whiny leftists don't get the up as often." tim? >> let me just say i'm not scared about little mike davis and what he's going to do. but it is scary about what their plans are. and i hate to give trolls like this guy attention. but just before i got on i was listening to an interview with maggie haberman who's probably about as well sourced as anyone in trump world. and she was asked by the interviewer, you know, who are some names that are being tossed around in trump world for attorney general. she volunteered mike davis. that wasn't maggie's idea. he should said that's what people around trump are saying right now. that guy. who's talking about putting me and mehdi in the women's gulag or whatever, which is a really clever, you know, misogynistic joke there. but that's what maggie said. when i interviewed steve bannon for the "circus" on showtime steve bannon suggested that man for attorney general and for white house counsel. would someone like that actually get in there? who the heck knows? but this is not just random, you know, resistance fear -- like getting concerned about something that isn't realistic. the people around trump are saying that this is a person that should have a top role and they are out, and that guy is out there suggesting the most anti-democratic, anti-rule of law fascistic totalitarian policies imaginable. that is alarming. even if i'm not personally alarmed by the, you know, fake tough guy threats. >> but i think you're right to treat them seriously. so let's talk then about what the guardrails are. if you were to have donald trump elected to another term, if he were to put forward names like this for consideration to lead doj, right? what are the guardrails in place? the u.s. senate? >> that's right. but one of the positions that tim miller just mentioned is white house counsel. that doesn't have to be, you know, senate confirmed. a lot of the people in the white house, chief of staff, these don't have to be senate confirmed. heads of cabinet agencies like the department of justice require presidential nominations, senate confirmation. i do think a person like mike davis and many other names i've heard bantered around, probably would not get through the senate, even though there are some people in the senate like mike lee. i think there are others in the senate who would be very alarmed including the leader of what's now the minority party in the senate. but that's just really cabinet heads and certain top-level tier of departments. there are all kinds of political appointees at sort of like the assistant -- below the assistant secretary level at other departments and in the doj it's below the assistant attorney general's office, assistant attorney general positions. many, many political appointees that he could put into office without senate confirmation. if there's any vacancy above them, they shift into those acting capacities. there's a lot of ways to sort of abuse that system. there's guardrails. but i agree with tim. this group of individuals who are in a position to know, his former attorney general, right? his former chief of staff, former white house counsel, others, it should be a campaign. for every rally trump's having go on the road. get liz cheney. get the people who have been, you know, the powerhouses of conservative republicanism for years but who have been completely marginalized. they might be able to have a voice. that might be a better guardrail than anything we're really going to see. >> i've got about 30 seconds left but i do want to ask you the post conducted interviews. 16 former trump advisers, among their reasons for opposing a second trump term. 91 criminal charges, attempts to overturn the election, false claims of election fraud, incendiary rhetoric, chaotic management style, affinity for dictators. the weaponization of the justice department. some of those your area of expertise. when you see them all together. >> well, that's why it's alarming that he's the leading candidate. right? it's alarming that no one can break into that. that list, that's a list you would only see, again, from an authoritarian in a different country that's not the u.s. >> tim miller, mary mccord, thank you both so much for spending some time with us. and reminding us of all the things we have to take very, very seriously. ahead, intense negotiations continue to win the release of a large group of hostages being held by hamas in gaza. we're going to have a live report on the war from tel aviv after a very quick break. stay with us. after a very quick break stay with us looking for a smarter way to mop? 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(we did it) start today at godaddy.com mr. president, is a hostage deal near? >> i believe so. i'm not prepared to talk -- >> you believe so? >> yes. >> that was president joe biden earlier today appearing the most hoful yet on the negotiations to free some of the more than 200 hostages still being held in gaza. it comes as sources tell nbc news that the united states, israel and hamas a closing in on a deal for a pause in the fighting in exchange for their release. meanwhile, the israeli military continues to expand its ground assaultst hamas, urging civilians in the northern gaza strip today to immediately move south warning, quote, it is dangerous for you to remain there. heavy fighting erupted around the indonesian hospital in northern gaza. bombing and gunfire heard overnight into & into the morning. this follows weeks-long global focus on al shifa hospital, gaza's main hospital. hundreds of sxashts staff remain trapped, surrounded by an active war zone. israel's military says these newly released videos show a hamas tunnel under the hospital complex. and two hostages being taken into the hospital on october 7th, which nbc news has not been able to verify. but there is just a bit of new hope today. egyptian authorities say the more than two dozen premature babies evacuated from al shifa hospital yesterday arrived to safety to hospitals in egypt for medical care. let's turn to nbc's rav sanchez, who is in tel aviv israel. rav, what do we know about the new fighting surrounding the indonesian hospital and this video we just showed our audience israel released of what it says are hostages arriving at al shifa hospital and the hidden tunnel under that hospital? >> reporter: sure, alicia. so starting with the indonesian hospital, this is all the way up in the northern end of the gaza strip. this is the scene of some of the most intense fighting still going. and the indonesian hospital, unlike al shifa, unlike rantisi, unlike some of the others, is still functioning to a certain degree as a hospital, which is why it was so alarming to see these images appearing to show israeli forces surrounding the hospital. now, the palestinian authority said earlier that 12 patients were killed by israeli shelling on the hospital over the last 24 hours. we asked the israeli military about this. they said their troops came under fire from militants within the medical facility and that israeli forces returned fire. but alicia, they are denying that they fired tank shells at the hospital. it's not clear what kind of ammunition they used when they were returning fire. they're saying it was not tank shells. going a little bit southwest to al shifa hospital, there are still some 700 people holed up in there according to the hamas-run health ministry. this is a combination of patients who are literally too sick to leave, medical staff who won't leave their patients behind, and displaced people who are too afraid at this point to leave the hospital and to venture into the streets where there has been fighting all around. and we have seen just horrifying pictures of the bodies of palestinian civilians in the streets around al shifa. so it does not appear that it is fully safe for people to leave. you mentioned these two bits of video pout out by the israeli military over the weekend. the first is cctv foot frj al shifa. it appears to be time stamped from around 10:00 in the morning on october 7th. so a couple of hours after the hamas terrorist attack inside israel began. israel says this footage shows hamas fighters bringing two hostages, one from thailand, one from nepal, into the hospital, and they say that is further evidence that hamas militants were using this hospital as a base even as early as october 7th. hamas is saying that this video merely shows that they were bringing these hostages in for medical treatment. they say it's a sign that they were taking care of these hostages. medical treatment, alicia, of course for wounds that they sustained in the course of a hamas terrorist attack. the other video that's been released by israel claims to show a hamas tunnel underneath al shifa, underneath the largest hospital in the gaza strip. israel says this tunnel is ten meters deep. it's a spiral staircase going down. it leads to a 55-meter-long tunnel that israel sends -- says ends in a blast door which has a firing hole in it. nbc news not able to independently verify either of these videos or israel's claims. but we can say, alicia, that that opening, whatever it is, that tunnel opening isthe grounds of al shifahospital. >> israel warning the civilians in northern gaza strip to, quote, evacuate your residential areas immediately in order to preserve your safety. what do we know, raf, about how many people have left and their ability to do so? >> reporter: so gaza city prewar population of over a million. the last estimate we heard from the unite nations was about 300,000 people remain. so that's more than 2/3 who have left. but it's likely that that number is smaller still. i was in gaza last week. i was on salahaddin street, one of the busiest streets normally in the gaza strip. it's now the site of what israel is calling a humanitarian corridor. so we watched as this mass of humanity on foot trudging south along this road. we saw families. besaw parents clutching babies. we saw elderly people in wheelchairs, little kids with their belongings and their knapsacks. israel says these humanitarian corridors are proof of their commitment to getting palestinian civilians out of harm's way. they say their war is only against hamas, not against the people of gaza. but for palestinians this looks and it feels like forced displacement. and it is the deepest palestinian national trauma, the idea of being forced from your home during wartime and unsure when or if you'll ever be able to go back. so there are still some civilians in gaza city. some of them have chosen to remain there. they do not want to leave their homes. others as you said, alicia, too old, too frail, too wounded to leave, and it's not clear even as the fighting intensifies around them that they're going to be able to get out. >> nbc's raf sanchez for us in tel aviv. raf, thank you. shifting gears for us, court is done for the day in the trump org civil fraud case in new york city. what we learned on day 32 of that trial. after a very quick break. stay with us. trial after a very quick break stay with us with cirkul, your water is deliciously flavored at the turn of a dial, with zero sugar and zero calories. and cirkul has over 40 flavors, so your water can be as unique as you are. try cirkul. your water, your way. now with even more flavors. available at walmart or drinkcirkul.com. hey, you should try new robitussin honey medi-soothers for long-lasting cough and sore throat relief. try new robitussin lozenges with real medicine and find your voice. you know? we really need to work on your people skills. the disgraced ex-president's civil trial continues this week in the new fraud case that threatens to bring down the entire trump organization. with what the "new york times" calls, quote, a parade of expert witnesses testifying on trump's behalf. it's day 32 in a short but busy holiday week for a trial that has been disruptive and at times defined by trump's rhetoric. most recently and immediately following the temporary stay of the gag orders against trump and his lawyers. joining us now, "new york times" investigative reporter susanne craig. sue, what happened in court today? >> i think the parade continued, to borrow in the "new york times." there was more expert witnesses that came in, and i have to say my colleague kate was there so we didn't have to be. but it wasn't necessarily exciting fare, but there were two potentially important witnesses for the defense that came in. there was an insurance expert this morning and then there was a former executive of the trump organization, former controller of the organization. and broadly what the defense is trying to do at this point, they're trying to hit a few points. one of them is that these valuations, you've heard this before, but they're art and not science and that donald trump had wide latitude in the valuations that he was submitting on his financial statements that went to the bank and he could do that without crossing the line into fraud. and then the other point that they're trying to hit is we relied on outside accountants and we also expected the banks to do their own due diligence, so it's not on us. if they gave us a loan, they didn't rely on this information. jeff mcconnie, who was on the stand today, he's the former controller of the trump organization. one of the first questions he was asked was about his communication with the outside accounting firm that the trump organization used, just to put a fine point on the fact that they relied on other people for a lot of things. >> we've been talking about the gag orders throughout the past two hours. so to pull that thread through, an appeals court temporarily stayed the gag orders in this case last week. they'll soon be evaluated by a full appeals panel. i am wondering what you are watching for, what you expect to happen. >> it was interesting. i've been thinking about our conversation last week about that gag order because you asked me do you think donald trump will now go out and say something now that the gag order has been lifted? and he almost immediately did. he may have actually been doing it while you and i were talking. i think you're going to see now come -- i think it's going to be in early december a review of it. i do wonder if we're going to see something come down that may be less somehow than what's in place. i don't have a good feel on it. as a journalist i'm sort of all for the first amendment but we're walking a fine line here between that and people being threatened. and just to remind people, the judge habtz said that donald trump can't talk about the case. he simply said that donald trump and his lawyers can't make remarks about his clerk. he's worried for the safety of his law clerk and he's sort of drawn the line there. but it's just fascinating to watch this unfold and how the first amendment rights are playing out in this, including donald trump, who has first amendment rights just like we all do. >> you and i were together as that news was breaking. i asked you to make a prediction, which i know that at this point no one likes making predictions. journalists least of all. so you pivoted back to, well, let's look at his past experience and performance and that will give us an answer. and of course it did. trump was denied his motion for a mistrial on friday in which he accused the judge of political bias, dramatically claimed it was the only way to, quote, salvage what is left of the rule of law. i wonder if you would just talk about trump's rhetoric. the impact it has had over the course of this specific trial. >> well, it's been interesting. the rhetoric -- we've seen a lot of rhetoric about the trial. he's very concerned about this civil trial in particular. the other trials that are going on, they're criminal. they threaten his liberty. he could potentially face jail time on some of them. with this one you're look at his money and he cares deeply about his money and his company. and there's a lot at stake at the end of this. this judge has already found him to be -- to be liable. this court proceeding, you said it was 32 days. we still have 20-some probably to go. at the end of it it's going to be, what is the fine at the end of this? it could be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. so, he's really angry and he said a lot of negative things about the judge, about the process and about the clerk. i think that that is going to continue. i just -- it is going to be really interesting to see where the appellate court does come down on the specific gag order which, again, is just about his clerk. >> we're going to be watching what that appellate court does very closely. i think i lost you, but suzanne craig, as always, thank you so much for spending some time with us. we've got a quick break. we'll be right back. t a quick b. we'll be right back. 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"the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> welcome to "the beat" and i'm ari melber. we are tracking one of jack smith's biggest pursuits of donald trump ever. this is an appeals court hearing that we heard today where we could hear in real-time the arguments from the lrs
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