debate, which was held tonight in downtown miami florida. the debate just wrapped up seconds ago, after two hours onstage. you can see there, the debate hall, some of the candidates, the five candidates who participated, still milling there. people in the audience the milling there. just finishing up within the last few moments. i am rachel maddow, here at msnbc headquarters, with my colleagues, michael wallace, joy reid, stephanie ruhle and lawrence o'donnell. tonight's debate in miami was a home game for one of the candidates, ron desantis. of course, it's the governor of florida, a heck of a lot good that is doing him. a poll out just before the debate shows governor desantis losing his home state, at least as far as the polling says by 39 points against his constituent, florida man and former president donald trump, who was not at tonight's debate, just like the first two debates, former president donald trump was a no-show again tonight. he was about ten miles away, holding his own competing event which was kind of the standard trump eventing. tonight's event, in downtown miami was the first republican debate not hosted by fox news. it was hosted by our nbc news colleague's lester holt and kristen walker, along with conservative talk radio host hugh hewitt. right at the gates, the matter raiders asked candidates about a question that a lot of them had been reluctant to answer or had a hard time coming up with an answer to, the very basic simple question, when the polling looks like this, why should you be the nominee, and not donald trump? >> donald trump is a lot different biden he was in 2016. he owes it to you to be on the stage and explain why he should get another chance. he should explain why he did not have mexico pay for the border wall. he should explain why he racked up so much the. he should explain why he did not drain the swamp, and he said republicans got tired of winning but we saw last night, i am sick of republicans losing. >> the republicans losing team was a recurring one tonight, which is a little awkward for republican candidate debate. but rhonda sentence there was referring to the fact that the next debate happened just 24 hours after a bang up election night for democrats. democrats and liberals effectively won all over the country last night. a democrat when the governor's race in red kentucky. democrats took both houses of the legislator in virginia. ohioans voted resoundingly to enshrine abortion rights and the states constitution. abortion is a driving force behind democratic victories by around the country right. now andy candidates onstage tonight in miami were asked what the path forward should be for the republican party on this issue, as they keep getting bashed at the polls on this issue, over and over again in blue states, in red states, every time and every way, the question gets asked. some of the candidates were quite gymnastic and avoiding specific answers to that question. south carolina senator tim scott was not one of them. he just jumped right in and said that he wants a national abortion ban. >> senator scott, i would like you to weigh in. how do you see the path forward? what do you make of what ambassador ali says? you see this as a consensus issue? >> i am 100% pro-life. i have a 100% pro-life voting record. i would as president of the united states, have a 15-week national limit. >> stop saying ban, no he slim, but that is the only adaptation that you have seen on that issue. another team of tonight's debate, back for an encore from the last debate, was just the deep palpable, withering discussed that candidate evac ramaswamy seems to inspire from his fellow candidates. he makes them say things that you can't imagine they ever set before in their lives. he makes them make facial expressions on the stage that you're quite sure that they don't know that they're making in public. he really brings out a sight of them that makes news, frankly. here he was with former south carolina governor nikki haley, on a section of the debate about whether the chinese owned app tiktok should be banned. i should mention, this back and forth ended with one of the candidates saying something i have never heard ever in any debate that i have ever covered and all my years on this earth. >> i want to laugh at why if you really did not answer this question, which is about looking families in the eye. in the last debate, she made fun of me for actually joining tiktok. well, her own daughter sexy is in the after a long time. you might want to take care of your family first. >> the my daughter out of your voice. >> you might want to check on your own daughter. the next generation of americans are using, and that is actually the point. [applause] the average supporter pop in her up, that is fine. here's the truth -- >> what she said there was, you are just scum. i think if they all said what they really meant, this could be a lot more clarified. wow, never seen that in any debate at any level, and i have covered somewhere debates at weird levels. but for all of that, this in question hands over the debate as all the others. do the fights between these fine folks matter? is this a real part at the republican party reckoning, what whoever the nominee for the president will be next year, whether the fact that former president donald trump is running 40 plus, in some cases, 50 points ahead of all of them in the polls? nicole wallace, i will turn to you first. >> oh, god. >> because you are more reserved than usual on this issue, on watching this debate, i feel like you are more contained, less valuable than i usually see. >> do i have to answer? >> he thought the pitcher to, but he should. >> i wanna say what i really think, that will answer your last question. they don't matter. they don't matter. when i sat down, i said the most exciting part for me is seeing who's there, because i had no idea who is running second to ten. for me, it's exciting to see who is running second, third, fourth, i had no idea who would be there. it does not matter the republican primary voter. take us out of it. nikki haley called, the other guy, scum, okay, but the republican primary voters has weighed in, and they are not into any of these people. they want trump, and they want trump by legit numbers than i think anyone has ever been ahead this many weeks before the first primary contests tonight. i don't know that in modern history, anyone has ever been 50, 60, 39 points ahead of the next person at the november mark, ahead of the first primary ever. >> then why aren't any of them going for the jugular, when it comes to him? the guy was sitting in a courtroom, humiliating himself on monday. he faces 91 counts. they just lost three times, you're right, he is far, far ahead, so for anyone of them, their only shot is to go for him and none of them did. >> that's because they think, they're probably not going to land that shot, and their future republican politics is with this policy, with this group of voters that only like i. if they are seen as because that guy, then there are. toast >> then why did we waste 20 minutes having this subset they've conversation about foreign policy, or some of them made coaching arguments, and we're all forgetting the fact that when it comes to foreign policy, at best, donald trump cozies up to vladimir putin, writes love letters to kim jong-un and most recently, set hezbollah is really darn smart. >> two comments, one, if you could bottle the contempt that nikki haley feels for evac ramaswamy, i feel like you could power a small town with the hate. she hate that guy. >> she hates, yeah. >> oh, my god. you can feel it through the screen. that is one thing, i would say. i think they all don't like him, but she really don't like him. the second thing is, i sort of felt like nikki haley and chris christie are not running for president now. they are sort of beseeching the republican party at the point after trump to come back to, to come back into its body, get there so back antibody, because their whole composition is so disconnected from trump's existence on this earth, they are almost normal. it's really jarring to hear them both sound like normie republicans and a rope in which nobody wants that in that party. >> or maybe they will someday. >> sunday, i feel like chris christie, even his appearance in public, he is begging the party to come back. i don't think he is succeeding. he is going nowhere in the pulse. it could be like a ticket together on some members. >> lawrence o'donnell? >> i must, it's my turn. >> everybody has to actually speak. you can't say i am not -- his a thing, it's not really what i think. yet the so you think. >> let me check my notes. here's my notes. my notes. it was really just that one word, those are my notes. it's easy to remember this is by the way, the first republican debate that i have watched. luckily, i have been working at ten pm during the previous republican debates, and i did not have to participate in any of this. i now see that vivek is the mvp of the panel for this reason. he makes everyone else look better than they were ever going to look because, he is not just the most hated person by everyone on the stage, he's the most unhittable character who's ever had a role in the presidential debating in either party. so she's helping them by being up there. he's making nikki haley look better, look stronger, making everybody up their -- >> humanizing -- >> all of them better. this is the debate for, you know, in case trump chokes on a cheeseburger. that is what this debate is. if somehow, trump falls out, it's going to be desantis or haley. >> this is the question? are they just waiting for him to die, go to jail or drop out, because no one's going after him? >> no, fame is its own currency, politics, especially republican politics, as trump saw. vivek is running for nothing but fame. chris christie wishes to push up his fame, see if there might be more money in some sort of vacancy contra costa this. and i think haley and desantis are the two who think maybe we have a future for years from now, maybe, so we want to play credibly here. and tim scott is going to go back to his quiet life after this, and he is going to be a little bit more famous, and that might help him with talk radio gig or something like that. >> i think the debate is probably irrelevant for the reason stated, unless something happens. out of the three that we have seen so far, it was the more serious debate. we heard some of the first policy criticisms of trump as mentioned, maybe because it's not scary to say that that is high, you can walk it back. they are certainly not dealing with the ethical and legal feelings of donald trump as alleged in so many forms, but we heard more than. i thought the foreign policy was interesting as well. this is funny because, we think our colleagues are great. they did a good job, but even if i was trying to be as objective as possible, i think it's fair to say that there was kind of a more space for a wider range of important issues in america and international in the last debates. full disclosure though, -- i think that is true. we had this conversation that went across two important, very tense war zones, and i think i'd be also heard policy from republicans there who clearly were still trying to figure out, how do you santafee with this somewhat allegedly strong foreign policy lingo while also saying, desantis has it back out hear as a former military -- were not going to get involved. we're not going to get more involved overseas, there's this sort of tough sunday but anti interventionists mode. i don't know what that means to anyone, or if anyone cares, or if these people are going to be in foreign policy or be president, based on what we can tell, two months out, but i thought that was shocking. the last point, the most obvious is, these five voices matter a lot less than all of the voices of so many voters who rejected everything that their party is offering us a day. i'm sure we'll talk about the night. donald trump had to lie and deny about what happened in 2020 and a lot of people have burned up capital joining those lies. some of them will be helped and a trial in march. they underperformed in the midterms. they got slant is today in ohio and virginia. the election denialism, not only is false, a sort of has not been getting high on their own supply. i thought we saw on the abortion discussion, i don't think there is credibility on the lawful nice. but the lofton's, some have been for abortion bans and tried to put another way. i thought that was interesting, again, may not matter, on lawrence is blank no path. but we understand how they want to proceed. >> on your point, the republican position on abortion is more unpopular than the iraq war ever was. just the door of something universally agreed to that had been very unpopular forever. the 85% of all americans for abortion answer instances, not one of those people is speaking to 85% of all americans, not one. and the person that inch the closest was nikki haley and she got a roaring, thunderous applause from the republican primary debate. >> she said i respect people that are pro-choice. >> i was going to say dissenting. the one person that seems to be at least trying to drag the party toward something sin on abortion is nikki haley. she said that, essentially, i don't judge how people vote. i am not happy that people in some states decided to affirm abortion rights, but i don't touch them based on how they are voting. that was at least until she was reaching some sort of consensus, but you go all the way to the other end of it, where tim scott is, like ben abortion right now, i'm not going to let californians decide their own lives. yet chris christie make the coherent point that all of this time, conservatives have been yelling that it should be the states that the site on abortion, and that is -- subtly, they like to a national ban. there were all over the place. i think kristi and haley at least sound like they hear what is happening, the arrested them seemed completely tone-deaf. >> can i ask you as a veteran of republican campaigns on roe v. wade was in place, it seems that the abortion issue in those primaries was more stable, and there was a much closer set of agreed upon ways of talking about it, and so, was roe v. wade, in effect, protecting republican nominees and republican candidates from this kind of exposure that we're seeing now? >> of course, there were straight jacketed, because it was reprehensible to deny exceptions in cases of rape and incest and the life of the mother. i was never considered by the two republican nominees that i worked for, and on the other side as well, which was decided by justices appointed by democratic republican presidents perceived as this marketing. eric for a very pro-life president. our for a pro-life candidate for president. there was this policy and language straitjacket were you never, ever contemplated, the night exception, switches are on the table for republicans and a lot of the state hands, alone a descriptions for the life of the mother. 93% opposition. republicans put themselves on the other three side of the 92%, and they wonder why they lost everything. >> in terms of their political skill and talking about it though, i think you're right, they actually have no idea because the straitjackets retire, they have no idea how to talk about it. there is this proverbial dog catching the car, they've no idea what to do with the, no idea how to talk about it, and the position that the party as found itself, and at their state legislators are imposing and stay out there stay at the state is so wildly unpopular that this backlash will be knocking them back for a long time, it is going to be a long time before they figure out. >> the public sees through the slice. the whole lie was, these justices saying we're not doing anything right away. they said it under oath, one justice then judge kavanaugh was not crying, he was repeating under oath, we are not going to change anything right away. settle the law, super precedent. >> susan collins said europe -- >> will take your word. you don't need a lottery to understand what is going on with the lies in your own body, and i think people see through it. they see through it in kansas and ohio, and then when you add to joyce's point, they came to the debate saying, even if we do this, it will still be at the local level, so you have a second say at this. no, that was another lie, and we have seen that. and ohio, what happened yesterday is that ohio's voters in a state i voted for trump twice said, no thanks, we reject this entire republican maga approach, and we want roe level protections is found in the same constitution for good. that is a big breakthrough, and that is what they are on the heels about. >> it's 20% more popular than biden, so biden is dealing with 20% on top of wherever he is, take that across the state. >> by the way, they're holding this debate in the state where on desantis was a nonentity, again. this debate nearly made a dent, but he had pushed to, and the dead of night, he signed it ad midnight. that is how proud he was of the six-week abortion ban -- >> a total ban. >> and is also hurting the governor of iowa who endorsed, it also has a six-week ban, it's dragging both of them numbers down, he did know how to address it. >> he did it to glenn youngkin yesterday. >> he did it to glenn youngkin yesterday. he's not learning what the voters are telling them. you know the debate, they understand it's bad, because they kept on one big lie, which is that democrats want abortion up until birth, which is not a thing. there is no such thing as abortion up until birth. that does not exist. but they all say it. they keep repeating it. i think even chris christie said it. i don't like the fact that -- >> in new jersey, chris christie says it's happening in new jersey every day. >> that's infanticide. no one gets to nine months pregnant. i have had three humans. he did not get to nine months pregnant and then decide, you know what, i change my mind, i don't want to be pregnant. that is absurd. it's actually libelous to women. it makes women sound stupid and craven and evil. the idea that you think that women having abortions at nine months means you don't understand science, you don't understand women's bodies, don't understand physiology -- >> and you think are voters are stupid. >> and you think your voters are stupid. i think there's something interesting in these politics. no >> we're all talking about the committee with which voters are speaking on this issue, and i think that what we are seeing tonight is that republicans have to figure out how to talk about it. the republican who was trying on the stage tonight to speak about it in the way that was most relate-able and less offensive to most of the people listening to her was nikki haley, but what was after -- her sepsis on, what was the very next thing she did? she attacked tim scott for not having support at the national 15-week ban. so she is trying to say, oh, no, we're going to try to do this differently in all the states, and we should stop being so divisive and don't try to impose your will on everybody else. and, you, tim scott, you can't be president because he did not sign on to a national ban. >> there is a very important point that you never hear in the presidential debates in either party. she raised the 60 vote threshold, it's hugely important, saying, none of this abortion stuff can happen federally, because they're never going to get 60 votes and the united states senate for any of this crazy stuff that these people are talking about, which also protects her then from not saying that she is going to do one at this crazy, federal laws. the others are all running for king and saying, i can do this, i can't do this. nikki haley is the only one who mentions, oh, yeah there is a senate and in need 60 votes or pretty much everything. >> you know i think you may have to get out. i've watched this all come in, watching it on the air last night, it's clear that pro-life trump voting republicans are voting against the pro life movement stuff. you don't get to beshear's numbers and kentucky without some of the sheers voters who saw the ads from a rape survivor, who had voted for trump for president, voted for a democrat who supports abortion access. what republicans have done, what they have said to the electorate is not just well outlaw, will make it a crime. even republican voters are voting against the abortion. ohio went down, again, 20 points ahead of the biden number, voted to ensure an implosion rights in the constitution. not only was i not sure that would pass, i never thought it would pass with 20% more support than supports biden. what the voters have heard, and the problem is that they have now branded themselves as criminalizing health care. >> and criminalizing women and having women arrested. by the way, i would argue that mississippi, which has been written off by democrats for decades, that race, brendan pressley came within four or five points. he is a staunchly, antiabortion democrat. he is very conservative. i would argue, had you combined that last name, offices can, with a different policy idea, if he was more like the kentucky governor in his views and abortion, and if abortion had been an issue, given the turnout, -- despite all the voter suppression and with problems that have happened in jackson, there was a surge of voting in mississippi, which is not easy to do. the turnout is usually abysmally low, among democrats. had pressley had a different position on abortion, i would argue that that state might have been closer. it would've been closer. >> the dobbs case that overturned roe. all right, we got much more ahead here tonight in our special coverage of the third republican presidential debate. yes, it happened. we'll talk about last night's big democratic wins in several states. we have lost the come, stay with us. >> let's find consensus. let's agree on how we can ban late term abortion. let's make sure that we encourage adoptions, good quality adoptions. let's make sure that we make contraception a sensible. let's make sure that none of the state laws put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty for getting an abortion. let's focus on how to save as many babies as we can and support as many moms as we can and stop the judgment. we don't need to divide america over this issue anymore. s issue anymore. with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm getting into my groove. ♪(uplifting music)♪ along with significantly clearer skin... skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi 90% clearer skin and less joint pain are possible. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to skyrizi, there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement... and that means everything. ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time to ask your doctor about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. 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>> i think his whole stick, which is extremely thirsty and obviously trolling, also is an echo of other problems that trump has caused that may outlast them in the republican party. >> the cheeseburger thing? >> who would have predicted or seen if you look back six or eight years ago that being donald trump's loyal vice president for four years on everything except actually joining a coup that is not a federal child, would not help you last as long as being the kind of chief content officer want to be that trump and the reality show and internet ding offers. that is what that is. pence is gone, and vivek is here, as you say, the tiktok podcast fusion project. >> but the other piece of it, i think it does demonstrate the point that, what donald trump has done to the republican party, is he has turned it into pure performance. there is just a performative version of many trump, other than hailie and christy are trying to be. with him, it is the idea that he says that he is disgraced billionaire -- or this great businessman, the way that donald trump does, but in reality, if you really look at his business, the thing that he bill after getting the george soros big brother, george soros's big brother's grants, which he accepted willingly, even though -- it looks more like a puppet gnome than it does a successful pharmaceutical company. -- >> this whole argument, america wants a big successful ceo, the last time a truly successful businessman ran for president, his name was mitt romney, and he was a really successful businessman, and a loss. >> can i say something though? i actually think that ramaswamy is a symptom of something else. the weakness of the rest of them. in old times, he would be gone, because he was a clown. it actually speaks to the weakness of the other people on the stage, that he is still there. >> we're going to be right back. up next, more on the democrats big winds in ohio, kentucky and virginia, the great steve kornacki will join us here. chris says will be with us in a moment. we had a lot to get to, stay with us. stay with us. when you have chronic kidney disease... ...there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪far-xi-ga♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. when you have chronic kidney disease, it's time to ask your doctor for farxiga. because there are places you want to be. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪far-xi-ga♪ my most important kitchen tool? 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i don't know, that was also the consensus view at the last debate, and the candidate actually got the largest polling bump out at the last debate was one that was not there, donald trump. they've got this what you will. heading into tonight though, let's just have a look at where they are in the standings polling wise. vis-à-vis the all but prohibitive front runner, the former president. joining us now from the big board is nbc's steve kornacki. can you help us rationalize the conundrum. >> i was going to say, this has been the supply of the debates. really, this has been the main plot at the debates. you have the overwhelming front runner in national and early state polling who has refused to participate, now in three debates. all sorts of predictions when donald trump started skipping debates back in august that he was going to pay a price. let's take a look here. this is the national polling average on the morning of august 23rd. that was the day at the first top republican presidential debate. of course, donald trump is not there. it was the one in milwaukee trump's 0.55% nationally, towering above the arrests, but you heard, all sorts of views, his critics and opponents say, if he does not show up, the voters will take this as a sign of disrespect. they'll be getting free airtime to all his opponents to define themselves, to define him. he's going to regret this. he regretted it before but skipping a debate in 2016. that is what we have heard, a lot course that day. the main one off that night, another one went off and september, now, we have had this morning, coming into the debate this morning, what prices trump paid, as he just said, none. none whatsoever. the national polling average this morning, it was at almost 61% of the vote. ron desantis, not participating in his third debate, picked up by eight tenths of a point. we do see nikki haley, she's got good reviews for her debate performance, as she was to play at the start of the debates, 7.9 this morning, that's the biggest jump you see from anyone, the biggest positive jump you see from anyone who has participated in the debates. we'll see if she continue to get traction here. but what i think is more striking is, trump had 60.8% are now. if you combine the five people that you just saw on stage tonight, their combined support is 32 and a half percent. so you saw a lot of squabbling between those candidates on the stage tonight, a lot of attempts to differentiate themselves from one another, but i think, honestly, all of them, what they really need, and they may not get, and it certainly does not look like they will get, they need to opportunity to get trump on the stage with them to make contracts, definitions with him present. trump seems to recognize that. he is strategically staying away. i think the question tonight is, did anyone do anything, or will there be any polling fought for the debate tonight that will get trump to reconsider the posture? really, we talk about what it would take to win a debate for these candidates, that would be a win for these candidates, getting trump to participate in the next one. >> and literally, steve kornacki, while we have been on the air tonight, we just got news that donald trump has now said he will not participate in the next one, and so, this is one of those moments were your lips to god's ears, really. >> for a second, i thought you're going to say, he was going to, and we will have a moment. >> -- without deep, the payment, steve. thank you very much. our colleague chris hayes joins us now. chris, what's your overall reaction -- i can read it in your face. >> no, look, it's like watching a preseason football game. >> there is a risk of injury. >> that guy played okay, i guess, i don't know. it is like preseason. everyone is making the motions a dating, without the stakes adapting, basically. so, look, in an alternate universe in which, it is nikki haley versus donald trump, maybe even from the beginning, i can kind of come up with a colorable claim that maybe that is a risk. i think she is a fairly at the politician. i think just ability to draw from some of the folks who have been disaffected that we see coming up an election after election, particularly in the suburbs to the republican party, particular trump and the market, i can see that being the universe, but we live in that universe. and so -- they all made the strategic decision to not really go after. so, i think they are all hoping that some comment falls with this guy. >> if that is the point that steph made at the beginning of our conversation, that for the polling universe, to be the world -- the real world in which we are living, why is it that none of them are going after them directly? i said, i think it's because in that universe, you can't afford to be an anti trump person because of never have another day of success in republican politics, but, what other choice that they have? i think also about, like, i think about the sag-aftra results tonight, the old labor which side are you one question, right? the elemental logic of which side are you on, you want to polarize the issue. you don't want people in the middle. one of the things you do is it effective organizer's drive that wedge to polarize people. which i do? one on the side of us or them? trump has effectively done that in the republican party. he has driven that wedge. he has understood that is his role in the party in some ways, is to draw the line between anti trump or pro trump. that's the only dividing line, it's a line to polarize on. he is so successfully done it and there is no evading it. if you're on the wrong side of it, you're dead. >> -- why would nikki haley and ron desantis, who are both young, just sit it out until 2028 instead of putting themselves in the mouth of the lion, doing absolutely nothing, running in circles? why are they even in this game until it's done? >> maybe it's a heart attack. he 77 years old. i think they're just waiting around for somebody to -- >> a problem of getting in, that decision has to be made before you know how vulnerable or strong trump's. so if someone were to say to you, there is a candidate, could be the front runner, but it is a very strong likelihood he's going to be indicted four times, you might want to get a campaign ready to run against him. these decisions to run were all made before he was indicted once. so they had good reason to think this could be a frail candidacy for donald trump as the indictments mounted up. they now have information that they didn't have at the beginning. that's 60% thing did not exist in their calculations at the beginning. it does now. so all you are looking at now is the planning of their exits and when they get out. a guy like pence is old enough and wise enough to know, i'm getting out before i have one penny of campaign debt. that's the key. he didn't want presidential campaign debt following him around for the rest of his life. these other candidacies, it's really all they need is a bust trick to the next town. these are pretty cheap candidacies. >> by that standard, what makes it so interesting to watch jack smith, is that jack smith is what campaigns used to be. he's rapidly responding to events is a transpire. these campaigns seem totally incapable of responding to events is they actually are. they certainly got ian exactly in the way that you described it, but he has now been indicted for. times they are candidacies, and if they had any ability could be about taking him out. he was takeout-able at the beginning, and certainly they could have reorder oriented there candidacies as quickly as the prosecutors oriented. >> we decided because chris christie stepped forward. we said okay, he wants to run that experiment, okay, run experience. we saw what happened with christine, we went from two and a half percent to one. so therefore they are looking at the 60% trump vote and any future point in my republican life i have to get those votes. therefore i can ever attacked that guy because i may someday ask for those votes for the people who love that. guy >> much more of our special coverage still to come. we'll be right back. be right back. >> tech: when you get a chip in your windshield... trust safelite. ♪ upbeat, catchy music ♪ >> tech vo: this couple counts on their suv... as they travel for their small business. so when they got a chip in their windshield... they brought it to safelite... for a same-day in-shop repair. we repaired the chip right away. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? 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debate, is former congressman from -- congressman carmelo, so happy you are able to be there on site tonight. thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you, rachel, good to be with you. >> our general take from watching here through the tv screen is that none of these guys has done enough to change the basic course of this race, and being behind 40 points, it's a steep time, but i think that we generally felt like governor haley is the person probably who comported herself the best and it yourself the most favors. didn't feel that way in the room, to you, watching her in person? >> yeah, definitely, rachel. i agree. i don't think there was any major shift in the dynamics, not even in this race for second place. but nikki haley came across as competent, and she was able to fend off a lot of the attacks that vivek won ramaswamy over swept when he mentioned her daughter the whole debate booed him where as for most of the debate people who supported each candidate we are clapping or booing, but in this case ramaswamy managed to unite everyone against him for that. even then it's a race that was gonna stay as it is. now it's an important race for second place because on the surface this is a very stable, trump versus biden rematch. but there's a lot going on under his service in both parties, so this isn't irrelevant. friends in nbc news did a wonderful job of moderating this debate, it wasn't a circus like atmosphere like the previous. two >> in terms of whose stakes were the highest and the different kinds of dynamics happening beneath the surface, it's a different kind of debate for governor desantis, if only because it's on his home turf. he's in a particularly hillary ding humiliating situation where donald trump is visiting by 30 point in his own state, and it's a home state debate. but you can see the desantis machine running new software, trying new ways of speaking, trying new ways of carrying himself, trying i think more humanizing ways of addressing some policy issues. do you feel like you are seeing him improve just in terms of what it takes technically to be a candidate? >> rachel, i think he still got some room to grow, but i think this was ron desantis's best performance, maybe because it's a little warmer here in miami. he seemed more at ease and he has in the past. desantis really needed to separate himself from haley at this point, try to gain some ground, establish himself is the number one trump alternative. that didn't happen. having said that, i think both him and -- turned inadequate performances. they address the issues fairly substantively. rstands the peril that the abortion issue represents for the republicans. her and donald trump, who subside steps it every time he's asked. but i see these candidates did what they had to do. some of the lower tier candidates didn't do anything to breakthrough to kind of catch up to haley and desantis. it looks like it's desantis and haley for race for second place which, given the 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outrun out criticizing former president and current presidential front runner donald trump, tonight. >> i can talk about president trump. i can tell you that i think he was the right president at the right time. i don't think he's right president now. i think that he put us eight trillion dollars in debt, and our kids are never gonna forgive us for that. i think the fact that he used to be right on ukraine and foreign issues, now he's getting weak in the knees and trying to be friendly again. i think we've got to go back to the fact that we can't live in the past. we can't live in other headlines. we have to focus on what's going to make america strong and proud. that's what i'm focused on doing. >> that's much of criticism that we saw against donald trump tonight. he, again, is ahead of these candidates by 30, 40, 50 points in the polls. i'm rachel maddow, i'm here with joy reid and nicole wallace and stephanie ruhle and lawrence o'donnell and chris hayes. we've been talking about the fact that the polling here precludes any of us describing describing any importance to the performative competence of these candidates. i think ron desantis is getting better. i thought that he was the worst supposedly potentially viable candidate i had ever seen in a presidential debate, intubate one, and now i feel like this new beta version of his software is turning out some new things. he spoke in a way that i actually think reflects the fact that he has been working on it. and he talked in ways that were sort of human. and he got what seemed to be legitimate applause. that means that he's a candidate who can change. there. that's my positive thing. >> if you are suggesting that he has gone from an f to a c minus, i think i'm with you. >> his problem isn't that he's awkward. i think most people have awkward people in their lives in they have the most enduring people in their lives. the problem is that he is peddling eight and doing it in a less compelling way that donald trump, not in my opinion, in the opinion of the republican primary. he's peddling this very -- in a way that republican primary voters, even the ones living in florida, view as far inferior to the way trump does the same thing. >> and also because no one wants to buy his substitute when they get the real thing. to me he was the biggest loser because he's on his home turf. everything that he has done to get to this place has been to pass and force through legislation that have made republicans in tallahassee resent him. they are now stuck with a six-week abortion ban that is deeply unpopular. he has picked fights with decently that have left to lawsuit. picked fights with the cruise industry. picked fights essentially pushed labor, latino workers out of the state, which is hurting the construction industry and the agricultural industry. they are screaming in pain because the workers are leaving because of his them, all of the state with that. he's not even getting anywhere in the polls. so i think there are a lot of republicans who will tell you in florida who resent him. so there really isn't a future for him if he doesn't, and he doesn't get a nomination again and that's the cheeseburger thing happens. >> to me the two winners are nikki haley and chris christie. so the real question is to no labels. no labels for anyone out there for months, raising money, pending the idea that we've got to have somebody other than trump, other than biden. chris christie and nikki haley made all the arguments tonight but you hear no labels make. so my question tomorrow morning, when i pick the phone and say hey nancy jacobson, trying to come on tv and her answer, again, is going to be no, why do guys exist? because you've got two people on that stage right now who could challenge donald trump with all your dollars behind them. what exactly are you doing? >> the whole no labels thing is by people who are hoping that on trump is going to get elected and that they can peel off seemingly moderate voters from voting for a democratic incumbent president by instead saying it is magic third way. that's all it is. because the sort of magic third way that you're talking about is completely embodied by those two who are not gonna win anything. >> can i take the debate seriously for just one minute. it's one thing that desantis said. and what is serious about it is, it's an injection of poison into the body politic, and into american society, and it is a breathtaking insult to the intelligence of republican voters and their human decency. and that is that ron desantis is going to shoot and kill drug smugglers at the southern border, and my question is, when? when will you determine that that's a drug smuggler who you're going to shoot and kill? is it going to be someone who has a backpack, who is swimming across the river? do you shoot and kill him or her van? do you wait find out what's in the backpack? how do you do this? and of course to do it, you would have to pass a new federal law that legalizes that particular murder, which you can't do because it's going to be 60 votes votes. but this very concept that is how we will handle it, and no one has had the courage to do this before, for no good reason, but i, ron desantis will set off the machine gun targets along that border and i will have them shot. there won't be trials. there won't be apprehensions. there would be anything. we'll be shot and they will be dead and then we will find out what was in the backpack. that's his insult to the intelligence and the decency of republican voters in the country at large. >> we had ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy both talk about using military force inside mexico. we also saw tim scott so he was going to literally declare war on iran. >> a less grim partner to that, but my favorite moment was vivek ramaswamy describing building a border on the totality of the northern border as, quote, skating to where the puck is going, which i thought was a nice play for the canadian vote, i guess, in some weird way. but i guess equal opportunity in insane paranoia and -- >> he's beyond the only candidate brave enough to go to the northern border. >> idiot i think, to your point, lawrence, it is a symptom of ron desantis's other core problem, which is because he had a super majority in the state house, he gave them a list and they did everything on the list and he is now trying to convince voters, republican voters, that you can work the same magic and washington, which a completely different system, in which, as nikki haley keeps pointing out, you need 60 votes in the senate to do anything. if anyone really truly believes that he can do any of the things he is saying based on what he did in florida, which he keep citing, they're not paying attention to the world because it doesn't work that way in washington at all. >> he also literally said aside from the widely reckless and morally indefensible glib talk about basically starting war with mexico, which is heinous in every way and heinous in the casualness in which they all talk about it, he literally said, i'm gonna build the wall and make mexico pay for it tonight. why am i gonna go with you instead the last guy that said he was gonna do that? literally, what's the point? we all know that's his line. why would i vote for you? he's the one that said he would do that and obviously didn't. why would i vote for another person who said he would do it and obviously didn't? >> the things that we've been talking about what level of criticism trump came in from. that was kind of the one thing, trump added a lot of debt, that's one thing they criticized him for. the other specific thing he was criticized for was not getting mexico to build a wall. so rhonda's hands was like if you could look at the four years of the trump administration's ar, that was it, and let's bring america together. one pay so. clearly that's the unfinished business that we should use to put the republican party back in the white house. >> and footnote -- >> if you, because it was -- >> 1 million marathons died from covid. >> footnote, one reason mexico didn't pay for the wall is we didn't build the wall. [laughter] >> there is that. >> and there's all the water. >> there's the water yes. it's water. >> this is so ludicrous to us. i think the big thing watching this is, wow, republican primary voters don't like any of them. trump is ahead, again, 30 to 50 points more popular than everybody on the stage. >> and he's running to take down our trust in institutions. he's running for four event. he gets on the podium and says i am your retribution. >> one of the core driving aspects that produced 2016 and trump was genuine and unbridled contempt on the part of republican voters for the republican party. ramaswamy has started channeled on certain ways. we have seen again and again with how it is manifested. trump being, like, all these people are losers, which was his stick in 2016, really worked with them. and i think it just remains the case that for a variety of complicated reasons, like republican voters still kind of hate the republican party and don't put trump in the same category. >> and by the way, i would say the person closest to making this point was biggie halle, where she did say republicans need a new generation, trump was right for that right time. no one is really talking about it. people talk about it with biden. but trump thinks that he ran against barack obama. trump is not always sure where he is. >> where it is we make it into world war ii. >> it's not clear. he might be non corpus mentors and nobody says anything. there is this sort of, the biden conversation about his age isn't had about trump, trump is three years younger. trump is arguably not all. they're not there the way he was even in 2016. his lack of ability to get through a sentence, he's lucy's words. there's a lot there. if one of these candidates wanted to try to take him down, if they had the political skill, i don't know if any of them have the political skill, there's so much there that it actually is political malpractice that they're not even trying. >> the biden harris put out the press release calling out the media for not covering a lot of these gaffes, and i think it's good that his rallies aren't taken lightly, but you do miss a lot of the gaffes. you have to go looking for. them he was on the stage, he didn't know where he was. someone came up and told him where he was and corrected him. this is happening. >> the judge was asking him a question about his business. and he said i was busy running the country. and they were like, sir, you weren't in office that year. [laughter] that happened three days ago. >> there's a good faith criticism to be made that like, oh, we should elect somebody who's 80 to be president. there is nothing inherently wrong with making that kind of an argument. categorically. but the answer to that cannot be, you're right, we should definitely put it at 77. that's what we need a 77 year old. >> who would be 80 during his presidency? there is a way in which these candidacies, particularly the christie candidacy, might actually, in the end, do trump in. when i look at that board, i'm wondering, that steve had up there, how many of those christian voters, how many of those nikki haley voters, will not vote for donald trump in a general election? they have had plenty of time to make up, everyone who's not voting for trump, 30%, whatever it, is everyone who's not voting for him in the republican primary, has thought about him a lot, and they have decided, as of today, no, i don't want to vote for donald trump. he will surely, if he's the nominee, get most of them going into a general election against joe biden. but he is unlikely to get all of them because there must be some pretty strong feelings to define themselves against donald trump at this stage of this election. and donald trump needs every single one of them. he cannot lose a single republican vote. he's on his way to. >> let's just be real about this, as well. freedom of the need to run in a democratic primary. joe biden does not have to run to the last, ahead of the general election in a way that's going to be staking out positions that he's gonna find hard to defend in a general election. he can run as bipartisan joe biden from now all the way through next november in a way that is going to provide him maximum opportunity for peeling off any persuadable independent voters, independently leaning, republican-leaning independents and anyone else in the republican party that can can't stomach trump. biden is perfectly positioned to do that because he has governed in a bipartisan way. he does have a legislative record of accomplishment. he's not a partisan bomb thrower. and he doesn't have to run in the primary. >> did robert f. kennedy junior, who nobody talks about, because he's all, i'd he is running, and the polls that i have seen and show that the bigger risk is to trump, because the people who love rfk junior the most are anti-vaxxers. so that's not taking from biden's voters. potentially rfk junior is a bigger threat to trump. so trump really does need every single voter. >> maybe two more to your point, the first people to joe biden can go look for in that effort are the plus 20 who voted to enshrine abortion in the constitution in ohio. there is a 20% cushion for joe biden to just say, i see this the way you see it. that guy over there, he's the reason roe is overturned. >> he's a reason roe was overturned and easily speaker that watson is the co-sponsor of a federal abortion ban and lifelong antiabortion activist. you sure you want to give the republicans the white house right now? >> nikki haley and chris christie's fundraising dollars in the next week off of this debate, think about the point that lawrence just made. the people who write her big checks tonight, and chris christie, are they really two months for now going to say well, i guess i'm gonna go for trump? they are not. >> they've had every opportunity. much more to see tonight. jen psaki's gonna be joining us in just a moment. stay with us. stay with us my mental health was much better. but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. #1-prescribed ingrezza is the only td treatment for adults that's always one pill, once daily. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including angioedema, potential heart rhythm problems, and abnormal movements. report fevers, stiff muscles, or problems thinking as these may be life threatening. sleepiness is the most common side effect. it's nice. people focus more on me. ask your doctor about #1 prescribed, once-daily ingrezza. ♪ ingrezza ♪ the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make- everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases. and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas- a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. knock, knock. number one broker here for the number one hit maker. -thanks for swinging by, carl. -no problem. so what are all those for? 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[laughter] bad phrasing. at my point, claire. >> it is late. i have had my moments, i will admit. i think the funniest thing he may have said all night, which shows how out of touch he is, because all the women listening said spin everything they were drinking out, what everything we do about abortion, we have to have male sexual responsibility. and i'm like, oh yeah. [laughter] is that gonna happen? in case anyone sochi, through ripon when she said that. i'd like to see that same legislation. women in america are going yeah, hold my beer. >> player brought up chris christie. watching him, he seemed the least overly practiced in some way. i mean that as a slight complement. but he also seemed a little deflated. he didn't go nuclear on don trump, which has been his strategy in the past. what did you think, kevin? >> i still think that kevin that christie has the hardest path to the nomination. first of all the three things the big takeaways that i have on this our first is that let's give credit to the moderators this was a very moderated debate and i think as you contrast it to the last two debates, was probably the most substantive. we saw a good strong policy debates. probably a lot of differences about how substantive or a lot of positions. but it was a good issue focused debate. the second thing is, and this is to your direct question, jan, the sub primary here, who is going to emerge as the alternative, who's going to take trump on directly, that race has been basically reduced down to halle, nikki haley, and ron desantis. those are the only two viable options right now that are going to emerge out of the early primary contest. you can see it in the debate, the way everybody went after nikki haley. why? she's the one that's most ascended in the polls and has the most momentum, and all the other candidates are trying to stop that. the third thing, i think, is still the elephant in the room, donald trump, who was talked about for the first five minutes and then disappeared. >> he didn't come up. >> he went largely unscathed in this debate. nobody drew a hard contrast with him. they didn't have a broad sustained assault. as we get closer to iowa, new hampshire, north carolina, florida, somebody is going to take him on directly. we have yet to see it in a broad and sustained way. >> the absence of trump has been a theme. i do want to play this back and forth between nikki haley and vivek ramaswamy. get your thoughts, simone. i'm sure you have many. >> i want to laugh away nikki haley don't answer your question which is about looking at families in the eye. in the last debate she made fun of me for actually joining tiktok. where her own daughter was actually using the app for a long time. she might want to take care of your family. first >> leave my daughter out of your voice. >> the next generation of americans are using it. and that's actually the point. here's the truth. >> you just scan. >> first of all, if anyone brought up my daughter i would bear claudia. >> she exercise sums restraint onstage that i don't think i would've had. that was a low moment for vivek ramaswamy. i think is annoying. he's absolutely annoying. i think the candidates felt that from the first debate on the stage. and every single debate since than, i think that they have just worked to flick him away like a little fly. i think the moderators had a very had command of the candidates today. they did not allow vivek ramaswamy to run away with the conversation. i do think that happened in the last two debates. all in all, though, i do think that the candidates on the stage, i did not see a president on that stage tonight, i don't even think i saw a vice president. >> i don't think republican primary voters saw a president onstage. not that you're one. >> there are a lot of extreme comments that were made. i thought the exchange about college campuses, similar, like the exchange about the border was very jarring in some of the comments that were made and i thought the tim scott was very underwhelming. , this false outrage, and you try to have a moment that never materialized. but his girlfriend came on stage the. and >> we did see that. mindy is her name. one of the most interesting things, anything we're gonna have to take a quick break in a moment, that i thought was how everybody one after nikki haley. and nikki haley became not only did she have a pretty good night of the candidates onstage, but she was the prime target. so that, i thought, was an interesting tell about where things stand in the primary at this point. >> she is the ascendant one. as kevin noted. she is the one who is galvanizing the energy of the money in the first instance that has moved off of ron desantis and moved towards her. here's the problem, and it goes to what kevin was saying, real quick, we talk about this as if it really matters, because it doesn't. because the base has decided who they want, and they want it on that stage. that person wasn't on the stage. it's donald trump. the money interest plays out on that stage. there is dropping, flopping back and forth between scott and haley and so forth. but the end of the day this is going to be depart determined at the ballot box, and none of those folks gave that base a reason to vote for them. >> that's the key thing. we do have to take a quick break, but we're just 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great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. >> unlike the first two home of the xfinity 10g network. republican primary debates, donald trump came up very early on tonight. here's what some of the candidates said about the four times indicted front-runner. >> don't trumps a lot different guy than he was in 2016. he owes it to you to be on this stage and explain why he should get another chance. he should explain why he didn't have mexico pay for the border wall. he should explain why he racked up so much debt. >> we need a president and a candidate who will actually help our base solidify and attract independent voters into our party. >> anybody who can be spending the next year and a half of their life focusing on keeping themselves out of jail in courtrooms cannot lead this party or this country. it needs to be said plainly. >> okay, so he was very present early on, and then he kind of disappeared. we were talking about this a little earlier. but kevin, what's the strategy there? you're on these republican presidential campaigns. what are they talking about? why are they going after trump? >> i think there's the technical strategy which is, many of these coal consultants or the strategist inside the campaign are saying we still have to get these voters. if we want to win the nomination, if we want to find our way to 236 delegates at the conventions, we're gonna have to appeal to these voters. so they just don't wanna draw hard contrast on that. but here's where i think that's a flaw, is that hope is not a strategy. it's hope that these voters migrate your way or the trump self-destruct's or that somebody else does the hard work for you. you have to go and make the case in the court of public opinion, with those voters on your own. and so the biggest mistake the campaigns also make is that they think they have time. here we are, we're in november, the first contests or in january. they have to make that case now. they have to make it in a relentless fashion, versus, let's take a couple of jabs in the first five minutes of the campaign and then pivot away, in the first five minutes of a debate and then pivot away. >> i think kevin's right. they're weighing the opportunity to -- stay on the stage with donald trump and i don't think it's ever gonna happen. if i were a biden -- i never would be ever in my former life, but there's no reason for don trump to stand on the stage. there's no reason. >> you might like what you're saying now, you never. now >> maybe a call on me. i just don't want him to tweet about me. the campaigns have made a gross miscalculation. and because of that, we're not going to see any traction. and i do think mister chairman, i don't know, the republican party has a conversation because how are you going to move past this terrible moment if no one is willing to take a swing, and nobody's willing to go and make their case. >> one thing i just wanted to inject here, because the other piece i think they have not really thought about somehow or haven't had some sort of meetings in the basement over, is what the heck they're gonna say about abortion and what the policy is. clara brought up earlier nikki haley's words, or maybe none of us did, so let's play that and talk a bit about the abortion issue as well. >> let's find consensus. let's agree on how we can ban late term abortions. let's encourage adoptions and good quality adoptions. let's make sure we make contraception accessible. let's make sure that no state lies put women in jail or given the death penalty for getting an abortion. let's focus on how to save as many babies as we can and support as many moms is i can. and stop the judgment. we don't need to divide america over this issue anymore. >> i'm gonna ask both of you this question. is that a general election strategy or position, that you think the republican party thinks will work? what she just said? >> i do. i think i thought it was a very sound case for her to make, when you consider the externalities in the politics around that issue, both inside and outside the party. she's talking to two audiences at the same time. she's trying to craft a message that will allow her to hold position with her base, i'm pro-life, but understand that outside of that base there are women, and including republican women, who do not like the criminalization of abortion, who do not like the fact that the party espouses pro-life values, but then does not care for, as chris christie said, the whole life of the individual. it is a tough argument for a republican to make today, because they have so back themselves on a corner with dobbs. they've still backed themselves in a corner with 50 years, not acknowledging a lot of the things that she stated there. and i know for a lot of my friends on the democratic side, they want something that's a little bit stronger and a little bit more, as claire noted, with some teeth to it. we'll see if that comes if she's a nominee in a presidential because she's gonna have to confront that issue more head on. but for the purposes of this primary, on that stage, i thought she kind of weaved herself pretty nicely into a space that she can survive to fight another day on this issue. >> sometimes when you say everything you say nothing. that is kind of the challenge. but one of the things that we haven't talked about a lot, maiden talk about it and tonight, is a results from last night and what the lessons are that you have learned from that. so claire, what do you think is a workable, you won in a red state message on abortion? >> well, here's the thing. there's two ways to win an election. one is, you can't win an election without attacking the person you're running against. none of them do that. so i don't get the feeling any of them are trying to win anything. i don't know what the running for. they're not gonna be as vice president. i don't know what she thought she was accomplishing by doing that tonight, because she if she was ever nomination would have to have an answer. she have to have an answer for the pro-life base. i shouldn't say pro-life, the antichoice base in the republican party. she would have to have an answer for women who see this is a highly emotional issue. that's the other thing we have to have to win an election. you have to have a motion the drive turnout. and when the democrats have right now, and i don't care what all these consultants say, some republican consulted in virginia was cool quoted in the wall street journal saying this issue will fade by november of next year. no, no, it won't. this issue, once they did what was always theoretical and overturned roe, they have now a situation where women have lost an important right to determine their own health care. sometimes risking their lives. in my state, 12 year old girl that beshear put on tv? that was raped by her stepfather? she's mandated by the government in that state to have birth to that child. 80% of america disagrees with that. if nikki haley can't say that out loud tonight, then i'm for rape and instead's asked exceptions, nobody said that tonight. not one person said, a position that 80% of america agrees. with i think they have missed the boat in terms of capping the emotion that is driving more positive activity on the democratic side of the equation than i have seen in a long time. >> can i just say, real quick, i hear you and i feel you, and the chairman in me is gone, but i'm not running that race right now. i'm not running the race you're talking about. when i get to that race, then we will have that conversation and i will be prepared for that conversation. at least i hope and think she would be. but right now, that's not her race. she's running to become the republican nominee, not the democratic nominee. but you need to understand, folks, politics you're talking to your audience, and unless you're going to be a real risk taker and talk to two audiences at once, understand what is going on. i get what you're saying, but please don't box it in as if, well, you completely blown. it no, she hasn't. because if she comes out in january, march, in april of next year is the nominee, i bet you she will be prepared to answer that question. what i'm saying, is she setting up the argument a lot better than the fellas. >> a lot your thoughts. we've got to get to -- and more thoughts. i want to turn to one of the most bizarre moments of the night, which is saying a lot. this is vivek ramaswamy and his closing statement. >> and this virus that joe biden is gonna be your nominee. we know he's 90 of the president united states. he's a puppet for the managerial class. so have the guts to step up and be honest about who you're actually gonna put up so we can have an honest debate. biden should step aside, in his candidacy now, so we can see whether it's newsom or michelle obama, or whoever else, tells the truth so we can have -- >> this really perfect time to bring in my next guest. joining us now is quentin folks, principal campaign manager for president biden. thank you for staying up late with us. do you want to respond to what that ramaswamy just had to say about president biden? >> thank you for having me, jan. that's a funny clip from ramaswamy. actually it sounds like he's interviewing to be the anchor of newsmax and the president united states, and i hope he's okay. i also [laughter] [laughter i do agree with him when you said the republican party as a party of losers. i do agree with that. so what happened tonight, normally after you lose an election, you take a moment to self reflect and try to course correct. what we saw as donald trump and republicans gather in florida, and double down on the same issues that cost them the election last night. so point-blank lee, the maga failed, republicans gathered in florida to double down on the same thing that cost them the election. so i just think this very comical coming from ramaswamy. >> we have been talking a lot tonight about abortion, politics of abortion, everybody at this table does not 100 percent agree which is okay. i want to ask you, in the campaign tonight, texting with everybody, what -- what are we going to see in an ad? i'm warning about social security and the answers on that? well stuck out to us problematic? >> i mean, the whole agenda is problematic. on abortion, they are not paying attention to voters in ohio, not paying attention to voters in kentucky, and also if you will indulge, me i heard the panel talking about nikki haley. the fact that nikki haley was quite clear on her position on abortion. she said she will sign anything that comes across her desk. she is using cute language, but that the end of the, day saying he wasn't anything that comes across your desk when it comes to national abortion ban when you passed an abortion ban in your state with no exceptions, it is a pretty clear position on the issue to me. so, again they are completely out of touch with the american public. and on social security and medicare, they're going out of the same thing about getting these issues which donald trump tried to do it year after year, in his budget, so again i think those just more of them doubling down on an issue that is completely out of touch with the american public, and in stark contrast with what president biden is bringing to the table. >> since i have the luxury of having you here, i have a lot of georgia experience, i do want to ask you about, georgia because a lot of people are freaking out about recent polls. so tell us a bit about what is going on on the ground in georgia, are you concerned, what needs to happen there for president biden to win georgia again? >> look, i think we have to engage voters. we are up right now on television with, as we are up trying to figure the best way to communicate with voters on a -- media environment, that is what this campaign is going to do. we are very excited to continue to do the work in georgia, but posting where down in georgia just came out of that cycle with the -- campaign. we were down the entire time. to a trump endorsed candidate which is also not going good for the candidates trump has decided to endorse in 2023. so i think we are going to stay the course and -- >> the i know you have to be up early tomorrow morning. the panel is coming right, back they are staying with us after a quick break. we will talk more. more. 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clare, i'm going to start with you. >> i think we will be starting with the choice america has between donald trump and what he represents in terms of a threat to this country versus the competent leadership of joe biden. i think this thing as a sideshow. >> so no one on the stage, it is a sideshow, wants to be talking about in two weeks. >> okay, michael, -- >> i have nothing. >> that is never true. >> i think really, the reality, i think what clare is saying is true. we will be talking about how this table has still not been reset. and so, everybody -- >> human narrow down? >> narrow down on the republican side, and quite honestly on the democratic side to stop the -- your man is named biden, and get your stuff, together and -- because if you don't, you are going to wind up at the wrong station. the country is going to be down the road. you will be waiting for people to get on. so i think that is going to be a part of the conversation, now because the reality of it is -- >> lots of analogies with the train their. i like it. simone? >> i think we will talk about abortion. i really do. i think the issue of reproductive freedom is something that women and people across the country in red place, purple places, blue places, it has motivated them. the fact that the day after the republican party apparatus was -- on this very issue, in many places across the, country and it barely got -- it got 20 minutes of a conversation, but no one was pushed on what it is they believe. i think it begs more conversation. >> the lesson from yesterday on abortion is an opening issue for democrats to run on. so that definitely -- >> so to that point, i think two weeks from, now and all the way through the campaign we are going to be looking at abortion as the backdrop shaping politics right now. so that is definitely a case. i also think two weeks from now we will be seeing a change. this debate changed the momentum, but in that sense there is a couple candidates out there who really needed to change the momentum, when you have a huge breakout moment. tim scott, chris christie, they're not getting it. this is going to come down. it has been narrowed down to a sub primary for who is going to be the alternative to take on trump, and that is i think firmly right now between desantis and nikki. >> it could just -- be >> we will see. we will be back. claire mccaskill, michael steals, symone sanders-townsend, kevin madden, thank you all for staying up late with me. that does it for me tonight. i will be back here at noon this and every sunday on msnbc and mondays as well, ap am eastern. stay right where you are, because msnbc's coverage of the third republican debate starts after the break. okay. my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care but, shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. kevin, where are you?! kevin?!?!?.... hey, what's going on? 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