former u.s. secretary -- establishing by to break it all down. former trump attorney and the star witness in this case michael cohen is also here with his say. we are now 364, days away from the presidential election. brand-new polling sites everyone kind of freaking out, steve kornacki is at the big board later this show that tells us what's actually happening. pennsylvania governor is also going to join us later on. we have a packed show, but we do want to start today with what was a truly surreal and weld in lower manhattan today. apart from the fact that this was a former president on file, it's a big deal in itself, today began like many other court cases, what the defendant took the stand, he raised his hand and swore an oath to tell and nothing but the truth. it's all pretty standard in the beginning part. until the defendant opened his mouth. that's when things got a little crazy. suddenly, the guy on the stand acted like he was at a campaign rally, doubted a courtroom where he was the defendant. trump took shots at the case saying it this was a very unfair trial, and a disgrace. he took shots directly at the judge saying that the fraud was on the court, not me. he took shots even at attorney general letitia james calling her a political hack. at one point he reminded trump this is not a political rally, this is a courtroom. another point the judge -- i beseech you to control him if you can. i told that i love that word beseech, but there is no controlling, him even when that lovely word beseech is used. when trump actually did answer questions, he made several big concessions thrown to. for instance, trump conceded that exaggerating the square footage of trump tower by three times could have been a mistake. he also failed to explain how he could credibly value at mar-a-lago at more than 75 times more than its tax basis. that's an over examination. they're despite downplaying the importance of the financial statements he admitted today that he did indeed play a role in securing favorable loans, a concession called key. the judge found the trump lately defrauded banks insurers. this trial and we're watching it now is about how much the trumps will have to pay in the images. it's about money it's about their businesses. things that the former president whose entire identity is wrapped up in his brand very much cares about. he shot probably should've taken, but instead the asterisk of of course is. this chaos was not even an accident. it was on purpose. all of what we saw today in the courtroom, this is what they were, going to do this is what they're going to do. as rolling stone reported, yesterday trump and his lawyer settled on a strategy to quote, build on spite and on unbridled antagonism. that strategy included the rubble or the trying to provoke the, judge which again is what we saw today. that was their strategy. according to that same, report some attorneys and political advisers to trump told the former president that a so-called remand to put him in custody for repeatedly reaching the cut -- might be a good. thing post legally and politically. trump is betting his typical attack dog aggression we've seen for years will continue to help him politically, he leaned into that. today even as a clearly backfired in court. it can kick and scream all he wants, but a decision is coming in this case. there are several more trials on the way, he could be in court all of next year. was so much bluster, his money is it, steak and pretty soon his liberty will be to. no amount of gaslighting our political gamesmanship like we saw today is going to change any of that. joining me now is -- he's the former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. i have been taking all day, what were you thinking about this trial? this was clearly, it was like a campaign rally watching. at whether or not that works from politically, which is arguable, what is the impact on the legal side on the court? >> that's not how you conduct yourself as a defendant in a trial, civil or criminal. it's not the way you conduct yourself when you're dealing with a judge who is pretty much been by the book in a case like this. basically it says to the world, trump and his team are no longer trying to win the case. if you pointed out in the, intro it's already been substantial rulings on summary judgment. the former president is liable, there has been fraud, and largely what this trial is about is determining what the penalty should be. if you're trying to win the case as a legal matter, you don't do all the things he did. if you're trying to make a political point, then you do the things you did, but basically you cannot attack the judge again and again and again and behave the way you behaved, and think you're going to get a favorable ruling from the. judge they have given up on that, that much is clear. >> they've given up on, it's and clearly that's not going to work well to judge. he did have some admissions, it mentions some of, them but as you are watching what was the starkest substantive admission or concession that the former president made? >> well, you mentioned at least two of them. one is that he was involved in various statements and providing information about evaluations. on the other, the financial statements were made for the purpose of them inducing lenders to lend. you have a basis for finding that he had what lawyers call mens rea, the incense to engage in fabrication and an overstatement. also the purpose of the statements was. he said that multiple times during the course of a statement, which again is a function of both hubris, and their plan to persuade the court of public opinion, -- not the court of lot self. >> everything ended a little bit earlier than we expected today, and we were all expecting for -- it ended earlier because his lawyers decided not to cross examine him. what did you make of that strategy? >> that's unusual. usually it's the case that when you have the hostile party examining your witness, your client who's the defendant in the, case you then want to clean up some of the things that were said before, you ask a lot of questions, allow your client to modify the things you said, to improve the things you said. but maybe it's an active bravado because sometimes somebody will say i have no questions because you think our client did as well as you possibly could, and it's signaling to a jury if there's a jury, as we know, it's signaling to the judge that we stopped that are guided great. there are multiple times during the course of the trial today during the course of trump's testimony that the judge said can you control your client? ? can you do something about? this the lawyers speaking to an audience of one, their client, the defendant in the case said things like he could give great answers, their review -- but as the future chief executive of the country, they were just coddling him, and i think they thought that for public purposes, the spectacle that was donald trump's testimony stood on its own, and was fined enough. . >> it seems like these lawyers were participating in a political strategy, not a legal strategy. they agreed to this according to rolling stone and others which seems, were you surprised by that? >>, yes i guess it's mostly a political strategy, donald trump calls the shots. it probably dictates some of the things that they say. these are loyalist to him. the only sort of legal strategy that i can discern here, is to the extent that donald trump is being outrageous and provocative and attacking the judge. was there some strategy to go to the judge into doing something that might be reversible error, or get so angry that he might do something extreme, which might help him on appeal. -- people up and evading on cable television all day, and probably for years to. the week i'm not sure that's, true that's probably an incidental potential benefit of trump acting outrageously, he believes when he acts in his life that he's always had a political, rally whether it's on cable news stations, or in a court of, law or in actual political, rallies i don't think he can help him by himself, i don't know how -- political strategy. >> there's clearly a lot of judges, a lot of prosecutors who are watching today. one of the things that still hangs in the balance out, there is the question of his appeal over gag orders. he just attacked a judge, hear he attacked the u-turn -- how do you think that plays out, or does it on his gag order appeal in the federal case? >> well you, know it's very fascinating that people are talking about how much of a wide berth or not donald trump has been. getting we can talk about a gag order in this case, and in the second case in which a guy is a criminal case, they are very limited. you have here a gag order in the new york civil case that mostly applies to their charges will staff and other lawyers of the president of the united states, foreign parts of the united states, but he's allowing the defendant in the, case a party in the case to specifically attack the judge himself again and again and again, so i think the other judges and the four criminal cases, one of which who was -- are going to be looking very carefully at the way in which control, your court room and -- one of donald trump's lawyers said to the judge, you don't control, maybe you don't tell me what to do, you control the courtroom. for people who actually practice and, court that's a subtle distinction that is not understandable. >> that's true, watching this criminal trials are entirely different. what did today tell you, or what should it tell all of us about trump is likely going to approach his upcoming, criminal trials. can he do the same kind of crazy behavior he did today in criminal trials? >> i think it's a much different animal. in a civil case you can take the fifth and decide not to testify because it might incriminate you with some other criminal investigations, but if you do that, the judge can draw an adverse inference against. the judge said today when trump was not asked answering questions in a direct fashion, he said i'm going to make adverse inferences, in other words assume that the facts are bad for you based on the facts you're not answering questions. in a criminal case, it behooves someone who is actually guilty, and can't testify credibly, and he would be cross-examined by the prosecution in a case like that. not to testify. i think donald trump does not have the ability to testify in a criminal case because i think he'll be chewed up on cross-examination, and it will be more likely to found guilty if he does in that circumstance. >> before that, you go i do have to ask you about this, what i found to be a completely crazy story in the washington post. i've heard it three times and i can't stop thinking about. it's a basically outlines, and it was kind of overshadowed by everything today, it outlines the plan that trump's allies have to use the federal government to punish -- a second term, they're drafting plans, they're talking about invoking the insurrection, act reading, that what did you think, what concerns you the most about what you saw in that story? >> so it's bonkers, i'm not sure what words apply to the things that are said in that article, and the way that it's characterizing donald trump's plans. i seldom kherson twitter. i did a couple of hours, ago in response to the article. it's ironic that donald trump says things about his current legal predicament, including the case we're talking about. . it's a banana republic, but it's not. the things that are being talked about, if you're the article to be true, and the reporting to be accurate, and correct he wants to weaponize his next attorney general if he gets back into the presidency, all the people under him to specifically go after not only political enemies of, his people who he employed who had been disloyal to him without any evidence, without any basis at all, that's the banana republic. i think people should read the article, i read it twice, i can't stop thinking about. it he read it three. times people read it at least once, and understand the consequences for the rule of law and for democracy and for justice in america, and one standard of justice in america, if trump becomes the presidents again will be a thing of the past. >> anyone out there washing, you can -- seven, combined thank you so much for joining me this evening, i'm talking about all these legal, issues we're trying to. understand donald trump's former attorney michael cohen blew the lid off of the trump organization's fraudulent business dealings back in 2019. he was the states star witness in this trial, and he joins me next. next >> everything was done at the direction of mr. trump. >> i was stuck, unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressants, radar helped lead give me a lift, adding real are to 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about witch hunts, it's worth remembering that this entire fraud investigation only started after trump's own former lawyers spoke out. you -- all the way back to a september of last year. >> mr. trump's allies may say that these penalties are too harsh, or that this is part of a witch hunt. i will remind everyone that this investigation only started after michael cohen, the former lawyer testified before congress and shed light on mits misconduct. joining me now is trump's lawyer former lawyer michael cohen, he's now the principal at crisis, acts he's also -- an author of the book of the root, for i don't know where else to start, what did you make up his behavior in the courtroom, what is going on? >> it was no different to, and over at the trump organization. most people at the trump organization if you had any dealings with donald on a day-to-day basis, you had to do exactly what chris kise, alina hobby, and chris blabbered to did which is whatever it is to struck eagle donald's a, go in and out all day long. that's what the real job. is their job was not to lawyer and to ensure that whatever the best possible outcome that could be derived from his taking the stand would be achieved. no. their entire goal was to create theatrical. donald thinks that the theatrical is the way that he's going to win the election. it's the way that he sees with more theatrical that's going on. the higher he's climbing in the polls, i've seen him do the same thing when he made the allegations that barack obama was not born in the united states, but rather kenya. he wrote that all the way, front page, he thought it was the greatest gift in the planet, and he thinks that all of these cases are going to propel him back to the white house. >> let me ask, you there's been some debate about this, whether his lawyers just agreed to this political strategy, or whether there's some legal strategy here about trying to get an, appeal trying to provoke the judge to do something that would help him in an appeal. what do you think? all politics? was there legal strategy here? >> no, there is no legal strategy -- he told them what they were intending to do, and being the sycophantic followers that they, are they just acknowledged it. the second that donald walks out, and he did it when i was there, he did it again today, he did it on his posting. a victory based upon, what that he corroborated exactly what i had stated while i was on the stand? he not only corroborated what i had said, he actually placed himself into the center of the scenario, so acknowledging that he knew what he was doing, and that he is the one that signed off on. it's like alina how about comes down the, stairs and she starts attacking. meet michael cohen crumbled. i schooled him and he's a liar. this is what donald trump tells them to do. >> look, i was going to ask you about this because you've been around for so many of these, meetings and obviously as laetitia james this would not would have -- a lot of people are speculating out there, does donald trump know his fraudulent business practices are legal? he sort of acknowledged a lot of knowledge today, or do you think he actually believes that he some how brings this business in an acceptable way? what does he think? >> i think he knows exactly what he was doing, he does not think about consequences. when you think about the todd, was he thinking legal, not legal, yes he knows what is right or, wrong he just does not care. that is the big difference. what donald always does is he uses the same play. that's why when i was testifying before the house oversight committee, it was so eagle -- they were never be a police peaceful transfer of. power it's also easy for me to understand how they were going to attempt to attack me when i was on the stand. in all, fairness i certainly did not crumble, and in fact every thing that i had turned out not to be -- defended himself, i was interested in going to adore, today and i came across this document, and no one has seen this document before. he does the same thing over and over and over. for he's using this, give us a little rundown on what that document has to be? >> what it says is obama ramps is looking -- eric schneiderman to target political. enemies all you have to do is remove eric schneiderman from it, put it into laetitia james, or put it into jack, smith or put it into anyone. it's the same language over and over. he thinks that it was beneficial to him than, which we all know it was not. he ended up paying close to 20 some odd million dollars for the special university case. it did not work, there and it's not going to work here. the theatrical said he and his lawyers are doing every single day, it does not benefit him. instead of schooling me, they should have schooled him on the proper way to answer a question. one, you don't make a full out of, yourself and then you don't get hit with a six or 700 million dollar bill at the end of the day,. >> i should note that that document you just showed, me we have not independently verified, that that is a document you have, it certainly does give you like to think, about do you think knowing everything up you know about trump's company, and his cash on hand, it's liquidity. can he even -- the -- that's what she's asking for. >> yes, he is going to have to sell and remember, one of the things that they've already done is they've started the process of installing a receiver in order to handle the potential disposition. what's interesting is you may remember in delaware, they tried to open up trump corporation number two, and then they were looking to try to transfer so high pawtucket, in the -- he saw what he was going to do, donald thinks everybody else is stupid without acknowledging that they are not smart than anyone else that's, he thinks he's more, devious it's just not. so she foresaw that he would do something like, this and they ended up preventing them from doing any of the transfers or high politic a shin. >> michael cohen, i love that phrasing, i've got it too, he treats everybody like there. stupid thank you so much, you always keep things a little spicy, so thank you for joining us this evening. pennsylvania governor joins me now, i wonder what he thinks of anything that happened and lower manhattan today, a lot of other things after a very quick break. dick stay with us. dick stay with us. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. 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humanitarian assistance that has not yet made its way to gaza. there's also been some statements made that include language that had deep roots in history. recently congresswoman, has referenced and defended the brief race from the river to the sea. what would you want the congresswoman to know, or anyone who's using that how any member of the jewish community in this country, and anywhere in the world hears that phrase. >> i just want to say that this deeply troubling moments that we're living through in the middle east, and now should not be used by anyone, that's the justification for their antisemitism. nor should it be used as an excuse for, hates or islamophobia, or anti arab sentiment. i think it's critically important that we speak and act with moral clarity right now. that goes for the congresswoman, and everyone else. look, there is no moral equivalency between hamas and a designated terrorist organization, by the united states and israel, a pluralistic democracy. hamas and an unprovoked attack -- killed over 1000 multinationals including the vast majority israelis. they took over 200 people hostage, including americans. israel should not have to live next to that terrorist organization. they have every right to defend themselves and that region of those terrorists. when you have to do everything you can to save innocent lives. i condemn the loss of all innocent lives. when we have to be very clear on college campuses, or even in the halls of congress. don't use this moment as any sort of justification, antisemitism, islamophobia, or any other forms of. hate the congresswoman should know better, others should know, better they should study their history, they should understand what has led to this, and they should understand what is clearly wrong, hamas a querétaro organization, and what is, right israel's right to defend itself. >> governor josh, shapiro thank you so much for joining us this evening. we've been waiting so long to say this, steve kornacki 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( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make- everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases. and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas- a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. okay, here is something you actually should be excited. about voters are going to vote tomorrow, and there's some incredibly important races we're watching. there are governors races and kentucky and mississippi and ohio, voters will decide whether to in try and abortion rights into their states, constitution that's a big deal. in virginia control of the legislature is up for grabs. the results there will have a ramos impact on rights movements going forward. joining me now for the first time ever on the show is the great steve kornacki who's at the big board. the what should we should all be looking out for. >> as you mentioned, thank you for that fairly introduction, four states we're looking at tomorrow to governors races tomorrow, each as the potential to be close, we'll be keeping an eye out on those, to other states in the goal of the issue of abortion, and what we might learn from that. that would be, ohio that would be virginia. there is a proposed constitutional amendment in ohio. it would enshrine the wall right to abortion in the state constitution, it would also give legislators the power to be restricted after the -- about 24, weeks and there are elections where essentially the republican governor could control one of two chambers, he's trying to go for full control, and he's advancing what he thinks is a path forward for republicans to win over moderate voters on. abortion let's start on ohio where this is the most recent polling on that proposed -- according to the polling, there is southeast a port for. this there is a test vote over ohio, opponents of this initiative are putting -- that would have raised the threshold for constitutional amendments to a 60% amendment to pass, that went down to defeat by double digits this summer. there is a harbinger of how this is going to go, tomorrow if it does pass tomorrow in, ohio there would be consistency with every other referendum, every other initiative we've seen on staples since roe v. wade. this was overturned, at the top of the screen you see here, these were initiatives, referendums that were advanced by the pro-choice side, two of them in very blue, states one in more of a swing state, michigan. they all passed, they all passed by double digits. on the under and that the spectrum, pro-life spit -- as you see and three red states, but they all went down to defeat, so that has been the pattern we have seen in every state so far. again, what they are doing in ohio has not been done in every state. it's saying abortion should be legal, but it's setting a point. the point of viability, there is the point potential there for restrictions after. that if that passes in ohio, and it passes, big-time it would give a plan here from abortion rights to borders to give central -- in 2024. arizona, florida, nevada, south dakota. they would have legal abortion, but they've had that point of viability, language in there. in the blue states where this is fencing -- that language does not. exist we get to virginia, and as i said republicans control the lower house, democrats control the upper. house republican governors, glenn youngkin wants control of both of, them and nieces on abortion that the compromise ought to be 15 weeks. he said that sort of the cut off for that he would favor, and republican power, they would push for that 15-week limits on abortion. how does that paul? basically here's a recent poll out of the state of virginia, basically right on the. middle 47, opposed 46, support democrats have made a big issue of this in particular, in this election tomorrow, they think you could lift them to victory, if they had a good day, it's only going to reinforce. that's the desire to make abortion a front and center for 2020, four if you look inside as tomorrow, he may be giving republicans a path forward on this issue. >> steve kornacki, i hope this is the first of many, i want to come play around with that white board. many people do. thank you so much for joining me this weekend. joining me now is aimee walters who's the publisher and editor of the political report, and is a political strategist and former president of emily's list, and we have a super when empowered political panel, which i am so excited about. it, me i want to start with. you steve just gave us a good rundown of how abortion rights is a basically basically on the ballot tomorrow. everyone's always looking for two lives. this is what everyone will always ask me. what does this mean? what could this mean? >> i think steve set it up very well because it's really about messaging more than it is about results, especially if you're republicans who when i talk to them right after 2022, they said yes we absolutely were on our heels on this issue, we were surprised to everybody, but especially surprising many republicans who had to go through to get through primaries, many of their candidates moved very much to the right on this issue. now they say well, we've learned our lesson, we've got to go on offense and not let democrats define this issue for us. this is what glenn youngkin is doing saying, look at polls. it pulls much better than saying, six weeks, or been it completely and we have exceptions. what's interesting if you watch, in those of us or here in the d.c. media market, we're seeing a lot of these ads. >> many. ads it's quite remarkable for legislators to see the amount of money that's being, spent but what you'll notice is there's only one race down at richmond where a republican is basically taking the advice of gagnon can and going on going on offense all of the other republicans, they're just sticking to crime. that's all they want. this is really much better than youngkin, and his theory, a lot of legislative candidates are not making the times is taking that same. advice >> there's a new york times poll that people are freaking out, over i think it's safe to say, but one of the bright spots for democrats and the biden team is on abortion. writes the support for biden's position on that. what turnout is going to be a big issue, i think as we watch in course of 2024. what are you watching for in terms of how people respond on the abortion issue? >> i'm just going to say since the dobbs decision, abortion is on the ballot every election. it will be on the ballots as a decisive issue until we figure out what to do. that means at some point in, time the american people are going to have to rise up and say we need a better national law that protects abortion, access to tomorrow's going to, drive it youngkin as it's a big, deal that's why he's trying to change the topic and try to find a middle ground, but amy is right. the republican party and the republican legislatures, they are ready to pass full bands. that is why it's not like democrats are running that message, that is actually what the republican legislatures are doing. we have examples over and over again, and that is the problem. here we will see what the turnout looks, like i am intrigued to see what that turnout is like in these, cases but this issue is not going away. >> i'm especially intrigued, turnout is because of a sudden -- they are taking place down in the hampton roads area where you have significant black turnout, critical for democrats. youngkin did well and some of these areas in 2021 when turnout was, lawyer but it did much better in the presidential year so that's going to give us maybe some tea leaves to about motivating those. let me ask you about this new york times, because what jumped out to me was a couple of alarm, things although we have 364 days, there is a huge shift among young, voters and also base voters, and young voters specifically in 2020, by 59% of voters under 30, and now there's only a one-point gap there. we've got lots of time here, but should people be freaking out about that? should they not be? what was most alarming to you are not in the poll? >> this is what the poll said to me is basically what we're going to be talking about for the next 364 days, which we all kind of know right now, which is president biden has an enthusiasm problem, that's with his base, donald trump has a ceiling problem. if you look at all of the head to head numbers in those states, i go on my soapbox, i'm going to do it, again do not talk about the margin, talk about the vote. sure which share of the vote, what is trump? getting trump sure of the vote is exactly the same as what he got in 2020. every one of those. states he kept that. if, and biden is dropping. so what this says to me is for donald trump to win, he needs to do one thing, right which is keeping his coalition together, but he probably needs something else happening which is for biden to drop, either because people stay home, or because third party candidates help to sign some of that. off >> very quickly before we, go we have the gop debate, on wednesday, my bet is that if youngkin does well here, the person we see echo that language is nikki haley. who is the candidate you think might? >> you know, maybe it might be a little bit of a step too far because let's face it, this is a republican primary debates and they have to win a primary to be in the general election, so you cannot go very far to the middle if you want to call that the middle in a republican primary. if i were any of those candidates for a republican presidential -- i would not to. it's emmy, walter thank you so, much let's do this again many times over the next 364 days. up next i just sat down with stacey, abrams and something she said really stuck. with me i show that he right when we come back. when we come back. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. it's easy to get lost in investment research. introducing j.p. morgan personal advisors. hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. 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