and last word with lawrence o'donnell, who i don't get to see very. often starts right now. good evening lawrence. >> good evening, chris. and welcome to the halloween jet-lagged version of this program. a calculated on the way in here in this evening, that it actually took about 30 hours of literally planes, trains and automobiles to get from malawi, back to my workplace tonight, including a flight delay along the way, and three airplanes. >> well i'm glad you made it. >> so here's the thing. with this kind of jet lag, anything can happen. >> that's a strong tease. >> chris, don't leave the building, because we might need you, and i could slip into a nap at the first commercial break. not to mention what could come out of my mouth. don't leave, i'm begging you, don't leave. >> i won't be leaving the building, and the viewers will be glued to their seats after this. >> anything can happen on halloween. >> sounds wild. >> thank, you chris. >> well, arthur ray hanson ii of huntsville, alabama, has become the first trump follower to be accused of following donald trump's implicit instructions to threaten the lives of people involved in the arrest and prosecution of donald trump. he delivered those threats in the stupidest possible trumpian way, by leaving voice mail messages for georgia's fulton county sheriff, and a separate voice mail message for fulton county district attorney fani willis. as soon as he hung up that phone, he was on his way to eventually being arrested and charged with a federal crime of transmitting interstate threats. and when i read you the voice messages that he left in a moment, you can reasonably conclude that he is likely going to federal prison for those two phone calls. if arthur a hans in the second faces a judge in the sentencing hearing, the defendant or his lawyer will definitely tell the judge that he had no intention of carrying out his threats. and that won't be enough to save him from a prison sentence. but it will probably, and this is just a guess, it will probably be true. more than 99% of death threats are delivered by people who have no intention of carrying them out. i don't want to minimize death threats in any way, because the threats themselves are serious crimes. but no one i know is more relaxed about death threats than i am. the only person i ever knew who was more relaxed about death threats than i am's my father, who gave me my first formative lesson in death threats when i was in first grade. my father was a boston police officer who worked his way through college in law school in night school and got his first big break as a lawyer in what was thin the crime of the century, the first time rank robbers stole over 1 million dollars. it was the famous brinks robbery in boston. but over the following decades it became the subject of several movies. my father represented some of the 11 defendants in that case. all of them were found guilty. and then years later, when the appeals process was finally exhausted, my father made a very unusual motion in court to have some of the evidence in the case returned to him, evidence that was taken from the trunk of the car of one of his clients during the arrest, that was never linked to the crime. it was $5,000 in nickels, dimes and quarters in what appeared to be unmarked bank bags. now, certainly suspicious stuff, but never linked to that crime. the prosecution was very surprised by the motion. they weren't accustomed to having convicted bank robbers say give me the money back that you found in the trunk of my car. but eventually my father prevailed, and he walked out of the suffolk county courthouse one day to the glow of flashbulbs, carrying some of the bags with the $5,000 in nickels, dimes, and quarters, which he brought home that night, dropped in the living room for, where the kids got to dig in as if they were halloween bags of candy, and grab a fistful. and then, the phone rang. my father winter to his small cubbyhole of an office, off the living room, close that sliding door, and then we heard the yelling. and no one could yell like my father. he repeatedly said, you know where i live. come to my house right now. he said it in a way that sounded like a threat to the person he was speaking to. it had the ring of, come to my house right now and i'll knock your head off, that sort of thing. when he emerged from his little office, it was completely unperturbed. 's gearshift from anger to smile was the fastest i've ever seen. and of course we all wanted to know what happened, what that call was about. he said i, it was just a telephone commando. it wasn't good enough. so my mother asked more. and he said, the guy says i it's his money, if i don't go to the corner of howlett street at midnight and give it to him, he's going to kill me. suddenly my brothers and i all living in a movie scene and we're all scared, but scared only for the number of seconds. i find a left in the air before say, if he was serious he never would've called, and then we all knew for an absolute fact, that it was a phony death threat. because my father just said so. and in those days, for us, that was good enough. and so when i got my first death threats for saying something that someone didn't like on tv in the 1990s, i didn't mention it to anyone. it's not an approach i recommend, but i'm offering this personal perspective tonight. in the hope that it might take your anxiety level down just a little bit, and only a bit, on the issue of donald trump inspired death threats because it's very likely that there will be more of them. and it will be always remaining statistically likely that they are not threats that include the intent to deliver the promises of those threats. i want to read you both of those threats that are now charged crimes against arthur ray hansen the second of huntsville, alabama, and keep in mind, as i read them, that he had over two months to act on his own threats, and he did not do a thing. nothing. shortly before donald trump was indicted in georgia, as orator hansen, according to federal prosecutors, quote, called the fulton county government customer service line twice, and left to voice mails, the first four sheriff flew bat, the second for district attorney willis, and in his message for the sheriff he made statements that included, if you think you're gonna take a mugshot of my president, donald trump, and it's gonna be okay, you're gonna find out that after you take that mugshot, some bad expletives probably gonna happen to you. if you take a mugshot of the president and you're the reason it happened, some bad expletives, gonna happen to you. i'm warning you right now before you, expletive, up your life, and get her real bad, whether you've got an expletive badge or not ain't going to help you none. and you are going to get expletive up. you keep expletive-ing with my president. hansen's message district attorney, he made statements that said, watch it when you're going to the car at night, when you're going into the, house watch everywhere that you're going. i would be afraid if i were you, because you can't be around people all the time that are gonna protect you. there's gonna be moments when you're gonna be vulnerable. when you charge trump on that fourth indictment, anytime you're alone, be looking over your shoulder, and what you put out there, expletive, comes back at you ten times harder, and don't ever forget it. arthur ray hanson ii of huntsville, alabama, is 59 years old. he is, like every trump supporter, who has committed violence for donald trump, or threatened to commit violence for donald trump, profoundly and irreversibly stupid. he is a terrorist. those phone calls were intended to deliver, at minimum, terror into the lives of sheriff law back labatt -- if arthur ray hanson faces a judge his lawyer will definitely blame donald trump for those phone calls, in the same way the january six defendants lawyers have blame blamed donald trump for their behavior. and on that point, the criminal defense lawyer will be telling the truth. judges in all the trump cases with the exception of the florida federal judge who was appointed by donald trump are considering how to stop donald trump from in effect picking up the telephone and putting it in the hands of a arthur ray hansen out there who are ready to spread trump terror in the world. the judge in the civil trod civil case fraud case has fined trump twice for violating that judges gag order, barring donald trump from verbally attacking court personnel. and in washington d. c., federal judge tanya chutkan, on sunday night, reinstated a gag order on donald trump that she had upended while trump was appealing the gag order. an hour. an hour after judge chutkan reinstated the gag order, on sunday night, donald trump posted, i called bill barr dom dawn,, weak, slow-moving, lethargic, got loose, and lazy, a rhino who could do the job. ias tough on him in the white house, for good reason, so now this more on moron -- donald trump from attacking witnesses in the case in which donald trump is charged with crimes leading up to an on january 6th. his attorney general, william barr, is going to be a witness against him in that case. and then donald trump posted through the night last night, at 105 a.m., radical left judge taking away my right to free speech. judge chutkan's gag order does not buyer donald trump from attacking the judge. seven minutes later, at 1:12 a. m., judge trump posted, remember crooked joe biden and his radical left thugs waited three years to bring these indictments. judge chutkan's gag order does barr know trump from attacking the prosecutors in this case who, in this post, donald trump was calling radical left thugs. at 4:24 a. m. donald trump repose to that same radical left thugs post. in addition to the two violations of the gag order in these posts, we see a chart of donald trump's insomnia, a condition he has admitted to for many, many years. the effects of insomnia are cumulative and get worse and worse over time. donald trump got a maximum of three hours sleep last night. how that affected his performance today, we have no idea, since he did nothing public today. but for a presidential candidate who is constantly accusing democratic candidate joe biden, three years older than him, of being too old, it is worth noting that the effects of insomnia, according to the mayo clinic, are not what anyone should be hoping four and a president. irritability, depression or anxiety. difficulty paying attention, focusing on tasks or remembering. increased errors or accidents. that's the man who most republican voters tonight want to be president again. and who arthur ray hanson the second of huntsville, alabama, tried to help by delivering a threat. leading off our discussion tonight is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division of the eastern district of new york, he's the co-host of the msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump, also neal katyal, former acting u. s. solicitor general most of the podcast courtside, both msnbc legal analyst, and gwen keyes, just attorney of dekalb county, georgia, is with us tonight. andrew, the gag order challenge facing all of these judges seems to be not what is the first stage penalty, but what is the penalty that will work? we've seen the new york judge fined donald trump a total of what is now $15,000. i think we realize that's not gonna be particularly effective. but clearly, with this indictment now of someone issuing death threats directly to people involved in the prosecution, the judges in these cases, with their gag orders, have even more cause for taking them even more seriously. >> let me first start by saying that what your father said about the death threat is exactly what an fbi agent said to me when i received my first death threat, which was basically, you know what, if it was serious, they would've wouldn't have called. >> yes. >> which isn't, i have to say, the first time you have a death threat, not what you want to hear. you want them to be taken more seriously than that. i think that also is the point, which is that these kinds of threats, with respect to family members of jurors, of people who work for the court, or families are intended to have that effect, especially, also, for witnesses who then will be reluctant to come forward and testify, it's quite pernicious as well as scary, as you never know, and it just takes one erratic lone wolf. but to your point, i do think that how the courts response to donald trump's testing of them, what you read about his truth social posts, are so reminiscent as to what he did with justice engoron in new york, which is something that deliberately am big u.s. and clearly the intent is there and means that the judge is going to have to be vigilant and they're going to have to do more than simply increasing the fine for instance 1000 to $10, 000, because i think donald trump will sniff out the weakness and will test the judges, and so i think that both of these judges are going to have to have a very stiff backbone in order to have meaningful sanctions, because they have to protect these participants and the integrity of the process, which all of us are entitled to a fair process. remember, the government is entitled to, and the public's entitled to it, not just the defendant. >> we neal, donald trump to the process of appealing one of the gag orders, the washington d. c. gag order. appealing that through the federal appeals process. will the federal indictment in atlanta, for these threats against the local atlanta prosecution team, could those find their way into pleadings by the prosecution in this appeal so that the federal appeals judges are firmly aware, through this pleading, that this is part of the stakes here? >> absolutely, lawrence. with respect to trump's appealed to the d. c. circuit, good luck with that. i don't think he has a chance in the world in winning that appeal. he may win something marginal around the edges, but before judge chutkan, who wrote the initial gag order opinion, before she ruled, during the time she ruled, after the time she ruled, i tell you, no one has made a more compelling case for the need for the gag order than i guiding donald trump. he provided the very best evidence against his appeal, and it's absolutely the case that the judge in d. c. are going to take cognizance of what's going on in georgia. they are going to even look probably at this threat that you've been talking about today, because a threat like what happened in georgia doesn't happen in a vacuum. it's fueled day in and day out by former president on trump's dangerous rhetoric online. and so i think that as we escalate, the punishments for violating the gag orders and so on, i agree with you that money alone is not going to be enough. jail time is obviously the kind of possibility that is being held out right now. but i think judge chutkan has a more limited option, which she has already talked about in the earlier hearings, which is, look, trump, if you keep saying the kind of stuff you're doing and scaring witnesses and attacking prosecutors, the result is going to be, i'm going to move the court date up. and she's absolutely within her rights to do that and would never be the subject of a viable appeal for trump. and so i think that's another tool that she has, and i wouldn't be surprised if she's right in the next time that trump does. something. >> gwen keyes, how do you suppose that this death threat that we now know about what is received, taken, processed by your friend, district journey attorney fani willis? >> well, unfortunately many prosecutors are used to these types of threats. when i was destructive tierney ahead escorts accompany me. my predecessor had escorts accompany me. even greater security based on high profile case. he was handling, and so obviously i think even though steps pale in comparison to what d. a. willis and her team i currently having to deploy to protect their safety. and so while it is an unfortunate part of the job, i think the key thing here is that these charges, this indictment, one, will hold the person accountable, and obviously the person is innocent until proven guilty. but accountability is important because that then leads to a deterrent effect. so what do you want is these types of threats to stop. and one of the ways that you do that is holding people accountable who actually make them. >> andrew, we've seen the deterrent effect among potentially violent trump supporters after the january 6th prosecutions swooped down on these people. donald trump begged them to show up in manhattan for his first indictment, and they did not show up. and the two dozen people who did were not even slightly violent. same thing in florida, same thing in georgia. nothing. and it appears as though that massive federal prosecution of those hundreds of trump supporters for january 6th as had some kind of serious deterrent effect about what they're doing now, every time donald trump gets arrested and indicted, and this phone call indictment, you would hope could have a similar kind of effect. >> yes. that is definitely why these cases are broad. and i agree with you that the january six cases appear to have had quite a significant deterrent effect, as well as, of course, holding people to account for really horrendous crime to our democracy. however, the number of threats that the secret service, the fbi, the department of homeland security have to deal with, is far outstrips the known criminal cases that we are seeing. it is off the charts in terms of what we are seeing, and that is promulgated because of the former presidents words. so it only takes one lone wolf to act, and i understand that not all actors are doing this with the intent to act, but if you are in law enforcement you do not operate under that assumption, because if it's one out of 100, that's one too many, and because of the volume, that means that some of these are real. so you have to respond to all of them. you have to take them all seriously. because these are people who, the people being threatened are people who are just doing their job. and it really has an incredibly pernicious effect on the justice system. so even with everything, lawrence, it still is a huge problem for law enforcement. >> i completely agree with your. point i don't mean to suggest these are not serious crimes and serious threats, and the problem, is you never know which one is the real one. >> exactly. >> but somewhere out there there is a real. one andrew weissmann, neil neal katyal, gwen keyes, think you all very much for starting off our conversation this evening. and when we come back, we'll get the latest from israel, from ronen bergman, of the new york times, who is there and will be reporting live. rting live ntinuous improvement... like rounded corners that resist peeling, with an array of active ingredients... and sizes to relieve your pain. salonpas. it's good medicine ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ cargurus. shop. buy. sell. online. - bye, bye cough. - later chest congestion. hello 12 hours of relief. 12 hours!! not coughing? hashtag still not coughing?! mucinex dm gives you 12 hours of relief from chest congestion and any type of cough, day or night. mucinex dm. it's comeback season. your best 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>> so, the latest is, as you mentioned, the israeli announcement that the commander of the battalion, the biggest refugee camp brigade, the jabalia brigade, who israel names to be one of the planners and the executioners of the horrific attacks and massacre, on the 7th of october, was killed in a subterranean bunker. his headquarters. where he was hiding, along with some of his soldiers, militants. israel claimed that what we see here in the picture, the crate, was not just this outcome of massive bombing, but it was basically the collapsing of the tunnels in which this month -- militant, hamas commander was hiding. this there were civilians killed with him. i think israel is trying to make a point that he was using the civilians as a human shield. he was a prime target, hiding under this building's, as we can see, the pictures, and it was proportional legitimate strike. at the same time, ground forces and tanks were fighting in that area. this is highly dense and also fortitude of hamas and the idf spokesperson described this as fierce fighting that could be people hurt and on both sides. we heard before that the idf spokesperson said to israeli soldiers from the -- brigade were killed, where an anti tank missile was fired on the house they were in. it's clear that this is going. on it's clear that israeli forces are using a lot of firepower to take down as much of hamas is possible. it's clear that more -- regrettably civilians have been killed. i don't see the kind of future, any kind of an end to this violence. >> does the israeli government have, at this point, much sensitivity or concern, i guess i should put it, toward attitudes, both within israel and outside of, israel in the united states, of serious concern for civilian, unnecessary civilian deaths in gaza, which is one of the serious concerns of all modern war? it didn't used to be a concern at all, of virtually no concern about that during world war ii. but in modern war, that is always a concern. does israel understand the concern being expressed about that elsewhere in the world, especially in the united states? >> i think honestly this concern was one of the main two reasons why, through the last, at least two decades, israel did not go to a ground invasion into gaza, except for one time in 2008. it was smaller than this one. forces recalled to come back. and one of the two, one of the soldiers one the civilians got killed. but one was international criticism. possibly persecution in the hague, it's a true. it happened is october 7th, israel belize -- exceeds more important. the point that israel is trying to prove, to regain its deterrents, to show that in a genuine new act, to show other enemies, now tomas, to show your other enemies that if they do something like this to israel, israel will at least -- their military infrastructure. i think these really militaries believe they have more time and maybe more leash from the international community. i just -- headquarters out the israeli military today in one of them said, but look, there was september 11th. the u.s. went for war. in afghanistan. within afghanistan -- i thought to myself, maybe so. it was a long war. but yet what israel, or what the u.s. can permit itself to do is not what the israel can permit itself to do. it's very different. and the time that the international community, and people in israel who understand that, the time that the international community is giving israel's much shorter and smaller than what israeli planners have produced for this war. >> ronen bergman, thank you very much. coming up, i was of out of the country and off the grid when the house of representatives shows the speaker of the house who is someone i had never heard of. something that has never happened before in my lifetime. but luckily, new york times columnist jamelle bouie knows all about the speaker, and will join us, next. us, next. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. my customer really relies on his car's advanced safety system. 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who is this guy? what do i need to know? >> well, how it happened is, the republicans were having a very difficult time finding a speaker after removing kevin mccarthy from the position. and basically everyone who came up, representative steve scalise, representative jim jordan, tom emmer, and too many enemies to not get the needed number of votes to become speaker. and so here comes mike johnson, who, because he is unknown, because he is kind of a backbencher, doesn't really have the kind of opposition me that would prevent him from getting the job. as for who he is, he is appears to be a member of the hard right faction of house republicans. not a committed evangelical, holds many of the political beliefs associated with thought that, staunchly antiabortion, staunchly against lgbtq rights, and also staunch opponent of social insurance programs, staunch opponent of me various sorts of federal aid. kind of everything you would expect from someone on that ideological, on that wing of the republican party. >> so this was actually a win for matt gaetz, but he got rid of kevin mccarthy and he got someone to the right of kevin mccarthy. >> i think that's exactly right. i think what is so striking about mike johnson's elevation is exactly that after all of this, especially for moderate institutionalist republican members, after all this fighting over not bending to the freedom caucus and not been to these particular members, he obviously did. he ultimately elevated a member who is on the side of things in everything but name. he's not a member of the freedom caucus, but he might as well be. and yes, this is a big victory for matt gaetz, for all those members who moved to not depose mccarthy on the since that he wasn't ideologically committed enough. >> and he does seem designed to be used by the democrats in their campaigns for the house. >> that's true. because he's such an obscure member, he doesn't have a ton of scrutiny. this is the first time he's played in the big leagues. and it's very clear, at least at this point, that he has just said a lot of stuff over the years that is going to make its way into advertisements, it's gonna make its way into democratic campaigns. it's worth saying, though, that he does have this job, and it is, first and foremost, a job. the government does need to be funded pretty soon. there are serious issues on the table that demand solutions, and it's not clear johnson is able to deliver. >> jamelle bouie, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. >> thank you. >> coming up, mike pence failed to convince republican voters that it took courage not to break the law for donald trump. tomorrow a phrase from richard nixon, republican voters won't have mike pence to pound around anymore. we will consider the meaning of the end of mike pence's political career, next, with stuart stevens. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com blendjets halloween sale is back from the dead. take advantage of spine chilling savings. blendjet 2 gives you monstrous power for a delicious smoothie, shake, or frappé anytime, anywhere. cleaning blendjet 2 is scary easy. just blend water with a drop of soap. recharge quickly with any usb port. boo-gie on over to blendjet.com and order yours today. >> donald trump came in second in the iowa caucus in 2016, to ted cruz. mike pence, more of a ted cruz republican than a donald trump republican needed to do very well in iowa to be a viable presidential candidate. i is close to indiana. and iowa republicans have until the era of donald trump and mike pence indiana style republicans. but when the latest des moines register nbc news iowa poll came out, showing mike pence warning behind a guy named doug, even mike pence knew he had to stop dreaming the impossible dream. and so mike pence went to the city of visiting losers, las vegas, and said this. >> traveling across the country over the past six months now. i came here it is become clear to me. this is not my time. so after much prayer and deliberation, i have decided to suspend my campaign for president effective today. >> joining our discussion is stuart stevens, a veteran of five republican campaigns. he's the author of the new book, the conspiracy to end america, five ways my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy. stuart, thanks for joining us tonight. having seen that, i start to think that maybe every presidential campaign should go to las vegas to drop out. because you'd be surrounded by visiting losers as soon as you leave the microphone. that's what the town is full of. what does it mean to the republican party, to this collapse of the republican party as we know it, that this is the way mike pence's career ends? >> well, you know, mike pence was never a very good politician. he sort of an accidental figure in history. first time he ran for congress he lost because he was caught transferring money from his campaign account to pay his mortgage. he was about to lose a governor's race in indiana as a republican, which is not the easiest thing in the world to do. and basically, he was picked by paul manafort to curry favor with jared kushner, endured kushner me for not chris christie because he put a sleazy dad in prison. a weird series of events had to happen. and of course pence had to throw away everything he ever said to he believed in to go with donald trump. this was a guy that was a shock stop right wing christian dj who ended up running with the guy now talking about having sex with his daughter. he didn't seem troubled by that it. all i, for one, find a very difficult to consider mike pence any sort of heroic figure because he didn't go along with the coup on january 6th. >> yeah, i find it one of the most absurd uses of the word hero possible. he didn't commit a crime. hero. standing ovation for the hero who refused to commit a crime. knowing that he'd get caught committing the crime also, by the way. stuart, the end of the pence campaign is one of the very few things that i have found notable. just as a historic note, in this republican campaign, which does not make it into anywhere near the top priorities of this program now, with the war on both in ukraine and israel and the trump prosecutions. but going forward, there doesn't seem to be much suspense, other than, when is dog doug going to drop out and all those other people down in the single digits? >> yeah, you know, the problem with all these -- chris christie and asa hutchinson, both former clients of mine, they all said they would support donald trump if he is convicted of a felony. so what do you do after that? if you're running against the candidate, the ideal circumstance we would get to be able to beat this person is to say he was convicted of a felony. so you're saying, it doesn't matter, i'm still gonna support. where do you take a campaign after that? it just is sort of meaningless. it becomes more about aesthetics. nikki haley says i would be a woman, as if that sort of a big deal in american politics now. we do have a female vice president, i don't know if she's noticed. but the republican party is we are donald trump's. that's with where they want to be. >> stuart stevens, thank you very much for giving us new, stewart's new book is the conspiracy to end america, five ways my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy. stuart, thanks. tonight's last word is next. st word is next. nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. 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