Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240702

Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. The beat starts right now. Welcome to the beat. Theres a lot of news around the world and in america. Our top story tonight is another shooting in america and any moment, were expecting a live update from the officials in that deadly shooting in maine. The high stakes man hunt is ongoing and underway. We can tell you more about that. Were going to listen in right now to a Press Conference that just began on the shooting. Lets listen in. And be safe. The city of lewiston is grateful for the support and outpouring from state authorities, the community, and of course, our elected officials. Speaking tonight will be u. S. Senator Susan Collins, u. S. Representative jared golden, and steve littleson, president and ceo of Central Maine Medical Center. And now, Senator Collins. Thank you, mayor. Today is a dark day for the state of maine. As the mayor said, our hearts are heavy with grief. This heinous attack which has robbed the lives of at least 18 and injured so many more is the worst Mass Shooting that the state of maine has ever experienced and could ever imagine. Today, i looked out my window in washington and i saw that the flags had been lowered and i realized that it had been done to honor the victims of this horrific attack. Im grateful for the leadership of Lewiston Police chief st. Pierre and for the bravery of the hundreds of state, local, and federal Law Enforcement officers who are leading the search for the killer. Im also very grateful for all of this Hospital Employees who came back to work to take care of the victims and for our First Responders whose bravery was so evident. Last night, the president called me. He stepped out of the state dinner with the australian Prime Minister to offer any help that the federal government could provide the city of lewiston, and maine. I also overnight talk to governor mills who has been a pillar of strength for our state. Tom perez, who is special adviser to the president throughout the night, texted me back and forth, what do you need. And i would tell him based on conversations that ive had as he coordinated the federal response. This morning, secretary of Homeland Security mayorcas called and offered help from his department. The Attorney General also called along with maines own u. S. Attorney to offer their help. Right before i came in to this building, i had a call from the Deputy Director of the fbi agents onsite participating in the search for the killer. 80. That does include other people from the marshals office, the atf, the dea and the department of Homeland Security and the coast guard. This has been a concerted effort at the state, local, and federal level. And everyone is determined to bring the killer to justice. To the families of those who have been injured or killed. I know that no words can fully ease the shock, the pain, and the justifiable anger that you are feeling. My hope is that you will feel the solace and strength in knowing that you are in the hearts of the people of maine and of people throughout our nation. Thank you. I now would like to introduce the congressman jared golden who represents this area of maine. Thank you, senator. Thank you, mayor, as well. My name is congressman jared golden from the town of lewiston, represent maine second congressional district. Some may not recognize me because congress has been crazy lately, i havent gotten a haircut in months, so. Sometimes, things happen that bring you worst nightmares to life. Yesterday, this is what happened in lewiston. At a time like this, a leader is forced to grapple with things that are far greater than his or herself. Humility called for as accountability is sought by the victims of a tragedy such as this one. Out of fear and my determination to protect my own daughter and wife in our home and our community, because of a false confidence that our community was above this and that we could be in full control among many other mus judgments, i have opposed efforts to ban Deadly Weapons of war like the Assault Rifle he used to carry out this crime. The time has now come for me to take responsibility for this failure. Which is why i now call on the United States congress to ban Assault Rifles like the one used by the sick perpetrator of this mass killing in my hometown of lewiston, maine. For the good of my community, i will work with any colleague to get this done in the time that i have left in congress. To the people of lewiston, my constituents throughout the second district, to the families who lost loved ones, and to those who have been harmed. I ask for forgiveness and support as i seek to put an end to these terrible shootings. In the days to come, i will give everything i have to support this communitys recovery. Thank you. And now i would like to introduce steve littleson, president and ceo of Central Maine Medical Center. Good evening, everybody. Im steve littleson, ceo of Central Maine healthcare. Which includes Central Maine Medical Center here in lewiston. On behalf of the 3,000 professionals and team members, i, too, would like to extend our deepest condolences to the families of the victims of last night. I would also like to acknowledge the compassion and expertise and team work by the Healthcare Officials last night when called upon under the most extreme circumstances. Just to give you the numbers as we have them now, i know theres been some confusion, i would like to take the opportunity to let you know what we dealt with and what we have currently in our hospital. All but one of the patients taken from the scenes last night were brought to Central Maine Medical Center. Of those patients, two were treated and discharged. One of those patients was transferred from Central Maine Medical Center to Maine Ned Cal Center in portland. Three patients unfortunately passed away at Central Maine. Of those, eight remain now and we have five patients in stable condition, three in critical in our Critical Care unit. Just to give you a sense of the scope of what we dealt with in a short period of time, last night within about 45 minutes to an hour, we had six fully staffed and running Operating Rooms at Central Maine Medical Center caring for the wounded and the victims. The professionals that were operating simultaneously in those six Operating Rooms including orthopedic surges, general trauma, urologists, vascular surges as well as an anesthesiologists and support personnel. I would like to express our appreciation for the support we continue to receive through today. First from the city of lewiston. Secondly, from Law Enforcement. We still have a Law Enforcement presence on the campus at Central Maine Medical Center. The other area hospitals that came to our support. We needed blood transferred to Central Maine Medical Center very quickly and two of the hospitals, maine general and st. Marys accommodated us. Maine med in portland stood by and was ready to accept patients and they did accept one of the parents we transferred to them. And also the various Community Partners that came to aid and support us last night including Emergency Response personnel, personnel from life maine and others. As one of the counselors said to me before we walked in tonight, you know, often people underestimate our capabilities to care for people locally. I think last night, we proved we can do just that under the most trying circumstances. Thank you. Well take a few questions. Senator, you just heard from represent jared golden. He has changed his mind on an Assault Rifle ban. Would you do the same . Well, first of all, let me say that i think it is more important that we ban very high capacity magazines. I think that would have more input and more effectiveness. We had an assault weapon ban, which i supported, that was in effect for ten years. It applied to i believe 17 or 19 styles of weapons. Later, the late senator Dianne Feinstein proposed an expansion that would have covered 157 weapons and it was based not on functionality but on cosmetic features. So theres always more that we can do. I was a coauthor of the bipartisan Safer Communities act, which provided funding for example for red and yellow flag laws and for Mental Health clinics, which have been important as well. So, certainly, theres always more that can be done. A decade ago, you opposed legislation with limited access to expanded stocks and firearms capacity. Are you stressing that you would do Something Different now . I dont believe youre correct for example, i was the lead republican sponsor of a bill that would ban bump stocks, which have the ability to turn a semiautomatic into a fully automatic machine gun. That legislation has not been enacted into law. There was an attempt to do it by regulation but it was struck down by the courts. I still support the bump stock legislation. The other thing that i think we can look at is and i advocated was to increase the age at which you could purchase a high capacity rifle from 18 to 21. The way it is for a handgun. Senator collins, you mentioned is there a lot of questions about the whereabouts of robert card. You mentioned a number of agencies searching for him. Can you offer any more details on the whereabouts of card and how close were getting to finding him . I cannot because i dont want to jeopardize the search for him in any way. I have talked extensively to Law Enforcement and as i said recently, with the fbi Deputy Director. But i certainly dont want to jeopardize the search in any way. Used we have been listen to be a Press Conference. Youve been hearing senator Susan Collins of maine. She was joined by Law Enforcement, medical staff, as well as a congressman discussing this horrific and terrible Mass Shooting with the Person Of Interest, the suspect, robert card, still at large. Were reporting on this for you tonight and i want to bring in nbcs george soliz whos been reporting live outside the hospital in lewiston, maine, as well as mark claxton, nypd detective. Welcome to both of you. Mark, that Press Conference continued with a discussion about gun laws and we heard and i think viewers just heard the senator explaining her position. I think its striking and a difference from a few years ago that the day of and in the thick of all this, the local press who of course are covering this and interested like so many other people, are immediately going to that issue. We will soon go to you on your thoughts on the area of gun safety law. But first, george, we go to you on the ground over what your report has shown over the course of the day and im told authorities have just collected a gun and a white subaru. Tell us about what youre finding in what is obviously a very difficult story there. Good evening, ari. It certainly is difficult. Especially when you talk to some of the people that have been impacted. Earlier tonight, i spoke with a cousin of a man who has been reported to be dead along with his son in the Bowling Alley. You can imagine the sentiment of the family coming to terms. For a while, they werent sure. They werent hearing anything. No calls. No return to text messages. It wasnt until this afternoon that Police Confirmed to them they were among the people that had not been identified and so these are just some of the phone calls and messages that are going out today and other communities that have been on lock down today, you have people carrying weapons. I spoke with a mom who was out there staying near her apartment complex and she was carrying a gun because she said she needed to feel safe in case robert card popped out of the woodwork. This man hunt is going almost on 24 hours now so we cannot not stress the emphasis on the police here. Theres so much Law Enforcement presence. Both that we see. Some behind the scenes obviously. Local, state, and federal partners here. A number of tools at their disposal as they are searching for this suspect who was a Person Of Interest this time last night. Now the suspect through the Press Conferences happening here today and these are quiet towns that have been talking to rez residents, ive been asking what is the Community Like if you arent on lockdown . Theyd be celebrating. Theyre so tight knit theyre one degree of separation from knowing the next person. Were hearing so many stories about someone who was at the sports bar, at the Bowling Alley and has tragically lost their lives. As you heard during multiple Press Conferences today, the amount of people, medical staff here at the hospital working diligently to save lives and just sort of bear the weight of this tragedy. That is something we cannot speak to enough. People that are actually learning about this day in and day out. As these tragedies and Mass Shootings occur. Weve been seeing so many people looking so forlorn in these communities after learning what happened here. So, it is so much to take in. The weight of this is obviously hitting this community very, very hard as weve seen time and time again with these Mass Shootings and again, this man hunt is still ongoing. The messaging so clear from authorities that people really do need to stay indoors as they continue to learn more about this suspect. Where he might be. Of course, a lot of residents just hope they take him into custody or that maybe robert card is no longer among this community in any capacity, really, just so people can breathe a sigh of relief. Until that time comes, this Community Still very much on edge. As you say, george, an active man hunt for somebody who according to authorities is suspected of killing 18 people. So we can understand the severity on the ground of what people are being told by authorities and trying to stay safe and avoid anything they dont have to do in terms of putting themselves out there. George, i want to thank you for coming back. Mark stays with me and mark, i going to put up on the screen the maine gun laws. A lot of gun laws are done at a state basis. Just to remind people, maine is a place that has a kind of its own independent streak, its own wilderness, hunting, sporting, fishing tradition. There arent required background checks. No permit to carry. No red flag law and high capacity magazines, which is one of the topics that came up in the press Conference Today are open season as well. So thats the conditions there. I want to be careful to state, mark, as we often do, this is an active investigation. We dont have full and total information about the State Of Mind of the suspect who remains at large. Although there are reports about Mental Health issues from his family. We dont know about all the guns either. So as we sometimes say, you can have a thing that starts out one way and looks another. Having said that, i want to get your response to the fact that according to the people in maine and the press in maine, the day to talk about Gun Safety Laws is today. Its not a week from now. Not two weeks from now. Its not going to be buried. I thought it was striking to see two of the local Public Officials there, Senator Collins and Congressman Golden, both from different parties, under clear pressure from their relatively lax records on Gun Safety Laws. So with the facts and that exchange leading the part of the Press Conference after a couple of updates, im curious your reaction to all of it. I think the Press Conference and some of the issues raised during the course of the Press Conference and that which the congresspersons kind of offered, really leads to this growing segment in the Law Enforcement community about having really crossed the rubikon in preventing these tragedies. When you consider the number of guns in circulation at this point far exceeding the total population here and then as you referenced by showing the maine laws, what appears to be a deregulation. Of laws. Just at the point now where the most, thats tragic and sad and disturbing. This shooting like so many others is not totally unexpected. We can go further and say unless theres dramatic change, having this discussion again and addressing the same issues that were talked about in the Press Conference and will be discussed by politicians in days to come. I want to bring in cedrick. Welcome to you, sir. Thank you for having me. Were calling you around a difficult famil families affect. The larger context is we heard Senator Collins say worse shooting in maines history. Deadliest shooting of the year in the United States. Were through a large chunk of the year. Im going to put up on the screen so folks understand. These shootings are so common where its roughly four or more. Weve had over 560 this year. 560 such Mass Shootings. So if you broke that out, sir, we would be covering them every day roughly. Like other things, they dont always make National News. Whether they go from local to National News, whether people watch the National News is a question of body count, which is a grim thing for a news anchor to say. Its how many people were killed. Was it quote, unquote, enough people to then be okay, now this is a big story. So with all that in mind, i wanted to get your thoughts as well as your reaction to something mark and i were discussing. Members of both parties at the Press Conference. Representative golden, hes a very what we would call a maverick or conservative democrat from maine. A military background. He may have had a big Change Of Heart today. I dont know whats in his mind or heart. I think many of those families would welcome whatever he says he wants to do, but he Just Announced in the Press Conference for the first time hes going to change his position. He spent a life and career as a politician who opposed these kind of Gun Safety Laws. Today, he says he would support at least a wider Gun Safety Rule against the heaviest armaments that are available. The assault weapons. What do you think about that Change Of Heart today and what we heard at the Press Conference . How many times have i been on this show and my colleague and your guest there has been on this show talking about this same suggest. Almost 600 times. The number of Mass Shootings weve had in this country this year and its sad and tragic and we have visited this over and over and over again. And when these events occur, we have this same conversation and in this conversation, we have elected officials, particularly at federal level that sit on both sides of the aisles. Some things they agree on. Some they dont. But this country right now is really in the need of their leadership in congress, in the u. S. House of representatives, to be able to say to us we need to do something very different here. This tragedy will just be another tragedy come next week, week after next, if something proactively dont happen. So for the congressman to make this statement that he did, hes willing to look further and deeper, that is great he is willing to do so, but its like anything else. Its not what we say. Its what we do. And its how many other colleagues can he bring along with him from both sides of the aisle as well. So i think this is an opportunity, yes, to have this conversation, but understand this is not going to be the last Mass Shooting in this country. Just science will point that out. Were going to continue to see this until we do something very different. Look, we all uphold the u. S. Institution. I myself and Family Members are legal gun owners and very responsible with them. We support that. I do philosophically as a 40 plus year Law Enforcement veteran, but i also know, too, that yes, these weapons do get into the hands of the wrong people in trying to determine who they are, where they are, when they may go wrong or to the left or to the right in their actions, we dont know sometimes because people lives change every day. But there certainly are some actions that can be taken. There certainly are some steps we know that the American People as a whole regardless of what side of the aisle they sit on want to see something very different. So thats the space im in. This area, areas that we dont force blame anywhere but as a nation of laws, as a nation of americans, were really going to have to find a way to come together to find resolve around this very, very difficult issue because this just cant continue. 566 Mass Shootings in this country . So far this year . That is not good. Yeah. Yeah. I think thats understandable. Both of you talking about what is needed and what would be leadership. I mentioned Congressman Golden who happens to be a democrat but conservative on the gun issue, says tonight, he changes his position. Hes for regulating the most dangerous weapons of war and i think a fair question is is that what its going to take . Does it have to take a Mass Shooting hitting home or are there other ways to have an evidence based Law Enforcement base approach to dealing with what is a absolute Public Health crisis and danger in our country. One im careful to note we dont always cover. It doesnt always make National News even as you look at those numbers. Thats what we wanted to discuss with both of you and i appreciate you being part of the coverage on a difficult day. My thanks to both of you. Let me tell folks what else is coming up. This of course was the top story in the nation here and we have that Live Press Conference on the shooting. We turn to some other topics later in the program. I have a Special Expert on how we need to define and understand a lot of the threats that were facing around the world including how to deal with propaganda we hear about sometimes coming out of The Middle East and how you can stay safe and thoughtful about how to deal with it. About what to look at, what not to look at. Im excited to bring that to you coming up. Plus, Professor Murray on what remains a very busy week in the world of law. Stay with us. Busy week in the world lofaw stay with us sean i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro jason sean do you mean this one the one with titanium . Switch to verizon, and get iphone 15 pro on them. sean wow vo get iphone15 pro, apple tv 4k and 6 months of apple one. All three on us. Only on verizon. For moderate to severe Crohns Disease skyrizi is the first il23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. 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Whos ready to chacha . yeah, yeah sean i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro jason sean do you mean this one the one with titanium . Switch to verizon, and get iphone 15 pro on them. sean wow vo get iphone15 pro, apple tv 4k and 6 months of apple one. All three on us. Only on verizon. Youre probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. But what if we told you its possible that comcast Business Mobile can save you up to 75 a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers . Have we piqued your interest . You can get two unlimited lines for just 30 each a month. There are no Term Contracts or line activation fees. And you can bring your own device. Oh, and all on the most reliable 5g Mobile Network nationwide. Wireless that works for you. Its not just possible. The middle east are among many big topics from how to compare is savagery of isis to hamas to the question of what defines terrorism itself. A word that become very loaded or contested amidst dualing claims about brutality, ethics or international law. The concept dates back to the French Revolution of the late 1700s. It is evolved to referring to political violee against civilians in order to try to enact a wider goal. Terrorism is inherently politically. About the pursuit of power and violence or the threat of violence usedn directed at a political aim. That quote is from a definition in the scholarly book Inside Terrorism. A resource thats been called the symbol for understanding the historical evolution of terrorism, the wilson center, and it was written by our guest tonight, bruce hoffman. One of the experts were consulting for these in depth segments weve been doing since the war broke out. Hoffman led the independent review to the response to terrorism after 9 11 including field work in israel, gaza, iraq and afghanistan. Hes a professor at georgetowns school of foreign service. Spent ten years at the ram corporation. His expertise also led to assignments like serving to the cias scholar in resident. Terror expert. Adviser to iraqs provisional authority in 2004. An adviser to the u. S. And iraq study group. Hes also the author of Inside Terrorism which remains a Scholar Resource and hes turned his attention to other forms of terror applying lessons from The Middle East to maga insurrection, and right wing violence in america. His next book is god, guns and sedition. Far right terrorism in america. So now, we are joined by our special guest, bruce hoffman. Thanks for being here. Delighted to be here. You have a lot of experience as we know. A lot of it is grim because terrorism endures so a Terrorism Expert called on by our government is busy. When you look at what hamas is doing, do you understand it to be a continuation of this long standing terror playbook or is there Something Different afoot . I think its very much part of a continuum that weve seen in the 21st century where savagery and brutality is handed oat to civilians. We saw this a decade ago with isis. Nearly 20 decades ago with the 9 11 attacks. And when you talk about that savagery, thats tactical. Youve been writing about hamas and youre trying to break down what it is. You say its important to understand what they say they are historically what theyve written down, how theyve adjusted o updated that. You write they have a covenant with a message that encapsulates a quote master plan. Quote, israel will continue to exist until islam will obliterate it just as it did others before it. Is it important to you that people understand hamas goal even if they dont have the power to enact it . And do you think some in the west underestimate what you call a genocidal approach. The quote you read is their quote. I think throughout history, we tend to ignore people who or entities that say things that discomfort us. So hitlers, which was nearly 800 pages in german, very few people had read it. Had they done so, they would have seen he was very intent on what he said. In the 1990s, Osama Bin Laden twice declared war on the United States. In 1996 and 1998. We ignored and then 2001. Certainly the 1988 hamas kickoff innocent and supposedly gentler or kinder 2017 charter basically ensues any kind of negotiated settlement of the dispute between palestine and israel. And basically says israel has not right to exist. They pause at an end game of palestine being free as the slogan where he see on social media now too often. Palestine being free from the jordan river to the sea. The mediterranean sea. So when people say well, theres got to be a way to sit down with hamas and work something out here. Do you view that as a legitimate position or do you view that as uninformed about what hamas says it is . Im not sure its a legitimate position necessarily, but i can tell you from firsthand experience after hamas was elected, i testified before congress, they were elected free and fair elections. One assumes. In gaza in 2006. They should be given the chance to govern. In fact, its illegal to negotiate with Terrorist Groups but through emissaries they selected, i led a congressional delegation to jerusalem where we did have those talks. What weve seen from october 7th and what we see is the fulfillment of their covenant from 1988. Theyre using the prospect of a negotiated settlement as a subterfuge to buy time so they can launch their attack. Thats chilling. Then you look in the wider context of this, how propaganda information are so central to this. Your book, which i was mentioning before we started the segment, i first read it 15 years ago or something. Its great. Wait to that. You have to understand the difference between practical measures where the physical measures which might be violent, might hurt soldiers, are pushing towards some physical outcome. Thats traditional war. Versus this political and theatrical effort. So with you drawing those distinctions, i want to show what the idf are going. Theyre saying they have evidence and they want people to understand. Theyre arguing that some elements in the west, europe, part of america perhaps, dont really have the common facts of what hamas is. Which is a separate question of what to do about these land issues if you will. So reading here from this report, the idf held a quote grizzly matinee screening, 40 minutes, raw footage from the october 7th attack. Press was invited. Cameras were not allowed. What we share with you, the general said, you should know it. Where does that fit in to the challenge here and whether people actually can see as we saw if you go back to the holocaust, what certain groups are capable of. What theyve really done and the tendency for denial to be a response to that. We see a merger of a number of different trends. The mobile killing forces. That isis then replicated. In the 21st century, isis went a step further. They videoed a lot of their worst savagery because they understood it had a profound effect on the audiences they were trying to reach. On the one hand, it drove volunteer, recruits into the their ranks. Theyre terrorists. They wanted to terrorize their opponents. We see that On October 7th where the hamas fighters and Palestine Islam Jihad Fighters wore go pro cameras on their heads to record the footage. Weve seen that with White Supremacists for instance in christchurch, new zealand some years ago. This is the point. Its not just violence for the immediate effect on the victims but its violence designed to reach a Target Audience and you do that through Live Streaming in a sense. When youre dealing as you have in government circles, theyve got to know everything. Theres no Trigger Warning in cia intelligence. You just go through it all. But here, we might call our civilized war and our attempt to have a balanced approach in the press. Where do you come down on what that means for society . How much of this should we show and how much should we resist if its being produced for Propaganda Purposes and the idf, part of what they wanted to do was get reporters to see some of this. Not to transmit it all to your distinction. Thats right. Well i think terrorists are using this material to get peoples attention to illicit an emotional and not necessarily a rational response. Its always a strategy of provocation. Theyre trying to provoke their enemies to do something that the terrorists believe in the long run will play into their favor. Will, in this case, provoke israel to bomb gaza then launch a ground invasion. As past gaza wars have shown, results in the continuing isolation of israel and the heat upon it throughout the world. The mass demonstrations that in turn influence governments that are even supportive of israel now, but a few weeks from now if the gaza war continues, might not be. Thats really their goal with these images is to drive an emotional response, to provoke governments to respond and hope it rebounds in their favor. You diagnosed that almost clinically. They want to cause x and when you know that, you might inoculate yourself against at least rushing that emotional response. President biden whos gotten high marks from some for his response to all this, actually spoke to that very dynamic youre talking about. Lets take a look. Shock, pain, rage, all consuming rage. I understand and Many Americans understand, but i caution this. While you feel that rage, dont be consumed by it. After 9 11, we were enraged in the United States. While we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes. Well, the United States of course invaded and occupied two countries and after a few years, they were simultaneous operations and this was a problem to say the least. So i think hes sending a message to israel that you have to war with gaza. Everybody is fearing that that war will spread to a second front on the Northern Frontier with hezbollah and lebanon. If you were in a cia briefing, what would you put the odds of that . I think theyre extremely high. High odds of a second front war. Absolutely. This is what happened in 2006 when there was a similar crisis between hamas and israel and hezbollah joined the fray and it was a war that lasted 34 days. But thats the point i think President Biden is trying to bring out and of course when he was senator biden, hell remember quite well that in 1982, israel invaded lebanon to destroy the plo. Didnt succeed and israel stayed there for about 20 years. So i think thats his warning. At the same time, i think President Biden is very sensitive to the fact that israel needs to reestablish its deterrence in the region. It needs to show it will deal harsh fully and ruthlessly with those who carry out what we saw On October 7th. Everything has been looking at these Terror Groups. I also wanted to raise with you as an expert one of the criticisms we hear of Nation States. Its been applied to the United States and certainly to israel. And that the criticism that somehow the actions that Nation States are taking are somehow similar to or an echo of the same wanton approach to civilian casualties, loss of life to children. Ill pick a specific example. A u. N. Commission of inquiry says its collecting and preserving evidence of what it calls quote, war crimes committed by all sides. Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the gaza strip with air strikes and blocked fuel, water, food, electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. You mentioned the tendency to be emotional. So i put this to you today in the most cerebral, least emotional manner possible, which is as a Terrorism Expert, what do you say to this view here espoused by part of the United Nations and others that if the u. S. Or israel or a nation state conducts a Bombing Campaign or does traditional warfare that results in loss of civilian life, it is somehow on par with hamas or isis war crimes of slaughter. I dont agree with it and i dont buy it because terrorists deliberately target civilians. The outcome may be the same in warfare, but militaries dont necessarily deliberately target civilians. In israels case, this is to, well, theyve given warning. Hamas gave no warning to the communities along the gaza border. Israel has dropped leaflets. Its tried to at least encourage people to leave these urban areas so they wont be caught in this terrible urban fighting. Thats a vast difference from terrorism. But of course, we should lament when civilians are deliberately killed, its called a war crime. Do you think part of the propaganda or communication efforts by some of these Terror Groups is to try to encourage a sensibility or a mood out there that well, its all kind of the same, that people are dying. That that could almost serve their interests. Thats precisely their goal and part of why they use this powerful emotional imagery to exactly trigger that kind of response. My last question for you is perhaps the most random. Because its separate from the actual expertise you have, but a human question. Weve been talking about this in your news rooms and this is such a hard story for everyone in so many ways or for people just watching it. Youve been steeped in this for decades. Is there anything you do or dont do to try to maintain your humanity and sanity and your normal life as a person against the backdrop of being immersed in this so much . Something that might be relevant to other people. Even studying terrorism, i think were always working towards peace and we understand the biggest enemies of all terrorists everywhere are not the hard liners on the other side. Are not the people that are just as bellicose or just as brutal as they are. Its the moderates and the peacemakers that suffer the most along with the civilians. So by studying terrorism, if you can find way to check the terrorist strategy. They want us to play checkers. Youre jumping over people and eliminating them. Chess is the proper counterterrorism response because its looking about second, third, fourth order. What terrorists are trying to do is deprive of us of that time by getting us to react immediately, emotionally. We need to look at this soberly and not play their game. Play our own game and look at the longterm repercussions of what we do in hopes it will lead to a peaceful resolution of the political conflicts that give rise to terrorism. Bruce hoffman, really appreciate you being one of our special guests here in these longer segments. Valuable for people to hear. Thank you very much for having me. We want to set aside time for that and that. Hope we all learned something. Next, there is news. Jack smith with a new filing. Melissa murray is here on that. [bell ringing] and doug says, you can customize and save hundreds on Car Insurance with liberty mutual. he hits his mark center stage and is crushed by a baby grand piano. Are you replacing me . With this guy . Customize and save with liberty bibberty. He doesnt even have a mustache oh, look a bibu. 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Its big news. Donald trump is clearly rattled by all of the people flipping on him. Abc new reportses that inudes former Chief Of Staff mark meadows in the federal case. Wack smith is saying they need to gag trump better or threaten him with jail times. The New York Times has the headline, pursuing a federal gag order and the court should weigh stricter sanctions, smith argues, including sending trump to, quote, jail, if he keeps talking about witnesses in his case. We want to bring in our expert on all things law, New York University law professor melissa murray. Professor, this is important, and stealing elections not light fare, but it could be lighter than what is happening everywhere else in the world. I ask you what is jag smith up to here . Well, again, we know that judge chutkan stayed her gag order earlier in the week, pending the possibility of an appeal. But we also saw soon as that gag order was temporarily stayed, donald trump hit social media to say more. This time, about mark meadows. Theres still very much the concern that he is going to be a loose cannon, that this may have repercussions for possible witnesses in the january 6th prosecution. May even have real concerns about the safety of personnel, whether its jurors or witnesses or even the judge herself. Again, the prosecution has resubmitted its request that there be a meaningful gag order here and that it has more teeth to it. And we have already seen in the new york civil case that theres been a gag order there, and that gag order has been defied, and donald trump has been fined 10,000, and warned against doing so in the future. Im curious whether you think it would make a difference if they get closer to the sanction of jail, because theres a lot of talk about trump being unhinged or delusional. A lot of that narrative benefits him because it suggests he doesnt know whats going on or in a legal setting he may not have the mental required culpability, but it seems he messes around less when he really things somethings on the line. Do you think the judges take that into account, and is anyone going to go as far as to jail him even for a night as a punishment or judges are loathe to do that . Again, jail is obviously a possibility. We have a long way to go between a 10,000 fine and the possibility of jail time. Again, this is a very highprofile defendant, one who is running for president of the United States. They are unusual circumstances that i think would cause any judge to proceed delicately in this scenario. Again, those penalties are there for a reason. Youre trying to balance the First Amendment rights of this defendant against the right of these other individuals to safety and those are not trivial concerns. See i think we have to wait and see, but youre right. He does seem to be better behaved when theres something on the line like his liberty. The interplay between the georgia case where we have now had three convictions and the federal case seems to be heating up. We have all heard these are different tracks. Obviously, the prosecutors are not coordinating in a formal sense. Yet, it would seem quite clear that the witnesses flipping who are also implicated as unindicted coconspirators and the heat on meadows is progress, that jack smith is in some way benefitting from the speed of the georgia case. Thats certainly true. We should also note, its four guilty pleas in georgia. We often forget scott hall, the first individual who flipped. Then the three other lawyers, the three lawyers probably take up most of the air time here, but thats huge for jack smith. It is possible that some of the information thats disclosed to fani willis in the course of the Plea Agreements could be shared with the doj and with jack smith going forward. Again, that depends on whether the two are in conversation. We dont know whats going on there. It is possible, perhaps, that jack smith could subpoena either of the three lawyers and compel their testimony in the january 6th prosecution, and that has some real complications, perhaps, but its certainly a possibility. One thing is clear here, theres certainly momentum in fani willis court and that will trickle down to jack smith. All really interesting. Professor murray, good to see you. Its a long week, not friday yet, but this was quite a development coming out of jack smiths case, so we wanted to get you on. Thanks for joining me. Thank you. And thanks to everyone at home for spending time with us here on the beat with ari melber on msnbc. We will continue to cover everything that is happening. These are, as you have noticed, pretty serious times, but we will take you through it as best we can every night here. My time is up, of course. That means its the reidout with joy reid up next