Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240704

Seen time and time again. And, they will not leave it alone. They wont let it go. And it would be, perhaps more evident, if the congressional delegation from ohio wasnt so outrageously gerrymandered. Yes. Anyway, its a good day for people who like democracy, and Representative Democracy at that. Thank you my friend. And thank you for joining us from home, for this hour of television. Imagine, for one second, what a speech from a former president normally looks like. Maybe its the opening of a president ial library, maybe its a university commencement, you get the idea. And then, there are speeches from our most recent former president. Before i show you his speech today, i have to warn you, it is vulgar. But we are going to play it, uncensored for reasons that i wont will outline after i play you the sound. So, prepare yourself. Im sorry, i will be able to go to iowa today, i will be able to go to New Hampshire today, because im sitting in a courtroom on [bleep], because, his Attorney General [applause] charged me with something. Terrible. [applause] [crowd chanting] [crowd chanting] that was a former president of the United States, president donald trump, in New Hampshire today, calling the multiple criminal indictments against him, very serious charges. That was trump characterizing those indictments as bs. Now, im not bringing this up just because trump was unhinged in New Hampshire today, but because, how unhinged Donald Trumps may actually substantively matter, for these court cases. You might remember that last friday, after trump posted on his social media website, if you go after me, im coming after you. After trump posted that, special counsel jack smith asked the judge in the 2020 election case to issue what is known as a protective order, limiting what trump can and cannot say publicly. And here was trump today, talking about that very same protective order. Crooked joe now wants the thug prosecutor, this deranged guy, to file a court order, taking away my First Amendment rights so that i cant speak. So listen to this we dont want you to speak about the case, the case. I will talk about it, i will, theyre not taken away my First Amendment rights. [applause] i will talk about, i will. Now we should make clear here, this isnt jackson ad saying that trump cant talk about this case at all. This is jack smith, asking very specifically that donald trump not be allowed to do anything that could intimidate or threaten anyone involved in this case. And, we do not have to imagine what that might look like. Trumps legal team has already laid it out. In its own filing yesterday, trumps defense Team Literally crossed out, strike through text, certain lines of the prosecutions proposed order. The defense doesnt think trump should be barred from publicly releasing things, including recordings, transcripts, interview reports, and related exhibits of witnesses. He will talk about it, he will. So today, the judge in that case, tanya chutkan, scheduled a hearing on friday at ten a. M. In washington d. C. To settle this matter. My question is, what happens if trump is ordered by Federal Court not to talk about Something Like this. But then, just does it anyway. Presumably, there is some legal peril in trumps strategy here but, that does not seem to be stopping the man. In fact, on top of all of this, there might possibly be more indictments to come. Today, the same, grand jury that Indicted Trump last week was spotted meeting again in d. C. Grand juries cannot continue meeting on indictments that have already been charged, so this would be something else. This would be something new. And, that comes after we got this a very great reporting from Betsy Woodruff swan on politico. On monday, jack smiths prosecutors had a closeddoor interview with a friend of rudy, bernie kerik. And they asked mr. Kerik, multiple questions about how trumps pack, save america, raise enormous amounts of money in the weeks between the election and january 6th. You may remember that trump raised more than 200 and 50 million in the eight weeks after the 2020 election, and he did so by running ads like this or. America deserves an honest election. This is what they got. Suitcases of ballots, added in secret in georgia. Dead people voting in wisconsin. A money for votes scheme in nevada. Poll watchers denied access in pennsylvania. Faulty ballot drop boxes, and crooks facing Felony Charges in michigan. The evidence is overwhelming. For months, well before trumps latest indictment came out, we hadnt seen report after report, that special counsel jack smith was investigating trumps use of false claims about the election to raise money. We even have reporting that smith was particularly interested in seeing if any of that activity amounted to wire fraud. And now, it look like we have confirmation that part of jack smiths investigation, the part that deals with potential wire fraud, Campaign Finance fraud, that that part is very much ongoing. The special counsel may very well not be done here. And that may be a good call on jack smiths part, because the former president is not done lying. There was never a second of any day, that i didnt believe that the election was rigged. It was a rigged election. It [applause] was a regulation, and it was a stolen, disgusting election. [applause] and this country should be ashamed. Joining us now are Politico National correspondent and msnbc contributor betsy. And former federal prosecutor and cohost of the prosecuting donald trump podcast andrew weissmann. Thank you both for joining me tonight. Andrew, are we going to see a superseding indictment here, or do you think this grand jury action is about the coconspirators who are unnamed in the initial indictment . Well, i think that the odds of seeing this superseding indictment in the January 6th Case against donald trump are low. And, thats because its clear that the prosecution wants that to go to trial, and they want a trial date, and they want it to be either before the election. Fasttracked. Or even before the republican nomination. But, what we could see is to your point, the coconspirators, i think its highly likely that some, if not all, we will be indicted. In fact, in a separate case. And then on the financial piece, that also could be a separate set of charges. And that doesnt necessarily need to go all the way up to donald trump, to rid that case. Remember, that case is very similar to the cases brought against steve bannon and his cohorts, against build the wall. Which is basically just a fraud case, when you raise money saying x, when you meant not x. When you have the same thing, what i find is very interesting if that proceeds is, that could lead to pretrial for future. We did this in the mueller investigation, and so you could end up with that packed, with a money being frozen. The save america . Pack exactly. And what is being used for. Legal bills. Exactly, sorry but. We take it on the road. Wait a second, i mean thats deeply problematic, given the fact that this is effectively the piggy bank for all of the defendants, that are thus far trolling the line for donald trump. This is where there are being paid from. So the house those fronts frozen, would be significant legal implications. I mean there could be other funds that are available. But if they are funds that are obtained by fraud, and obviously the government have to prove that, that there is a showing that needs to be made. But, you can get pretrial procedure orders. We did that in the special counsel investigation. Obviously, that all requires proof, it requires a court to do that. But if this is where they are going, you could do that, and that doesnt have to be a charge against donald trump. It can be against the pack itself, it can be against lower level people, and still have both civil and criminal forfeiture. Betsy, one of the reason we think that the grand jury is Hearing Evidence related possible campaign fraud, is because bernie kerik, who we mentioned in the league, and according to your reporting, was meeting with prosecutors on monday. Can you tell us more about why bernie kerik may be the sort of kevin bacon of all of this . A person that connects the various spokes on the wheel . Yeah, hes a bit of a forrest gump type character. He and Rudy Giuliani go way way back, to their days running a powerful office within the city of new york. Bernie kerik of course was the nypd commissioner, he has been very close allies of giuliani for decades now. And in that crazy window, between election day 2020, and january 2026, bernie kerik very much worked hand and glove with Rudy Giuliani, under, him on that legal team that was trying to find any sort of evidence, any sort of pretext to make the case that the election had been stolen by joe biden. What we also know, based on the conversation that i had today with bernie keriks lawyer, who is in the room with the special counsels team for the interview that bernie kerik held with them earlier this week, is that jack smiths prosecutors were very interested in safe america, interested in who was making decisions about fund raising. And also, interested in who was making decisions about how the money that the pack may raised was spent. When it comes to this fraud question, one thing people should just keep in mind based on public reporting, going back for years now, is that a real bone of contention between a Rudy Giuliani and people in trumps orbit, was the fact that Rudy Giuliani actually hardly got paid during that window of time. Giuliani and his allies were pushing trump, in the month or two after bidens inauguration, to help pay giuliani for what he had done, and to pay for the exploding legal bills that giuliani was facing. So, an outstanding question is not just, were the Save America Pact fundraisers deliberately lying potentially committing law fraud, in raising money for that entity. But also, when they claimed that they were going to use that money, the money people gave very generously, these trump small dollar donations gave in that window. When they said theyre going to use that money to contest the election, what do they actually do with it, and what does that mean for the standpoint of the lies governing Campaign Finance . Betsy, just really quick. I mean from tim parlatore, who weve had on this program as recently as last week. Is the lawyer in question here, there has not been the public suggestion that bernie kerik is going to be given, shall we say evidence the prosecution. But it sort of sounds like he might. Thats right, i am not aware of any indicators that bernie keriks testimony was the sort of discussion that would have gotten Rudy Giuliani in trouble. But he is a port of course, we could he just knows so much. When it comes to the question of filling in factual gaps, having somebody who was in the room for conversations, having someone who can explain all of the minor characters who played important but perhaps underestimated roles in the machinations that Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell were involved in. Carrick himself provides that valuable insight. He is not indicated, in trumps indictment, as an unindicted coconspirator. But, without a doubt, he was very close, and had detailed knowledge of the activities of Rudy Giuliani, who of course is one of those unnamed, unindicted coconspirators, with the indictment. Andrew, there were a lot of flies on the wall, in and around the campaign in the white house. And the flies are coming in, im just the metaphor is Gonna Exhaust itself shortly. But, i do want to, before we end the segment. I do want to ask about this protective or, because this very much remains unresolved. Joe judge chutkan has said, the trump team didnt come in until next friday. She sort of laid down the law. She is the judge. She is the judge. But, i do wonder, the behavior of trump on the Campaign Trail today does not show a man who seems to take a little concerned with the content of anything he is saying. He is as aggressive as he ever has been. What are the potential outcomes here . So, one thing i think is really important for people to recognize, and has not gone a lot of attention is, when you are out on bail, you do not have the same rights as the rest of us. Just remember, he will await trial at times in jail. Right. And you think they are gonna let the let go, and say its restricting my liberty . Of course it is, thats what bail is. To say oh, its restricting my First Amendment rights, thats right. And at times, a judge can do, that if its necessary. So, here, the judge i think is going to be very concerned about the integrity of the judicial process. And what i mean by that is, making sure that donald trump is not using his speech to threaten witnesses. Now, we saw that happen the day after the arraignment, when he had sworn that he wasnt going to do that. He is out on bail on three cases. If i were the judge, thats the primary thing that i would be worried about, and thats why the government. This may seem like a small skirmish, but to me it isnt. It really goes to making sure that witnesses, jurors, judges. Judges. Family members are not going to be harassed and threatened. And it doesnt mean that donald trump is going to do it himself, but he is certainly aware that his reckless talk leads to those consequences. And unfortunately, this country has seen examples of that, and we have talked about people like ruby freeman and her daughter. And weve talked about paul pelosi, fbi offices, the Family Members of alvin rag, of judge in new york. All of whom have been actual people, who are victims of Donald Trumps mouth. With and saying things that he shouldnt. And that is the reason why you have this kind of protective order, to make sure that this doesnt happen. And he continued on tonight. He posted to truth social, going after judge chutkan, imputing her reputation. The beat goes on, as it were. Betsy, thank you so much for that great reporting. Thanks for joining me tonight, andrew weissmann, we are never really ever done with you, so please stay here for a few more minutes. We have a lot this evening. Ohio voters went to the polls today, and chose to protect democracy from an all out assault. Breaking Election Results are coming out. Plus, when one of trumps Defense Attorneys tried out a brandnew defense on fox news this weekend, was the judge watching . 14 have more on that, coming up next. Next oh, hello hi do you know that every load of laundry could be worth as much as 300 . Really . And your clothes just keep getting more damaged the more times you wash them. Downy protects fibers, doing more than detergent alone. See . This one looks brand new. Saves me money . Im starting to like downy. Downy saves loads. Hi, im katie. I live in flagstaff, arizona. Im an older student. Im getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. I do a lot of hiking and kayaking. I needed something to help me gain clarity. 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Splenda shakes are made by the 1 doctorrecommended sweetener brand. Splenda Diabetes Care shakes find them in the pharmacy aisle today. Sunday night, you might have heard of Donald Trumps former attorney, a man named jim trusty. You might have heard him offer up a novel theory about the classified documents case against the former president. Theres a lot of shenanigans, in terms of grand jury usage. You know, you dont do a Grand Jury Investigation for a year, only to move it to another district, unless theres more to the story. Theyll be litigation i assume, that will relate to these issues of how the grand jury was used or abused. But its certainly again, New Territory when the doj shifts an investigation at the lastminute, to an entirely different venue. Okay, so thats mr. Trusty, floating the idea that the special counsels use of a d. C. Based grand jury, the one that he has heard this case for months, that that is somehow suspicious. And that somehow, prosecutors abused the use of this grand jury, and that that abuse should be litigated before a judge. Now enter aileen cannon, the u. S. District judge overseeing that classified documents case down in florida. The day after mr. Trustee laid out that argument on fox news, judge cannon issued this ruling. With no prompting from trumps defense team, she just did it on her own. Judge cannon pointed to the prosecutors use of an out of district grand jury, the one in washington d. C. To continue to investigate and or seek post indictment hearings. She deemed the use of that grand jury suspicious. Judge cannon questioned the legal propriety of that move, and she ordered special counsel prosecutors to explain themselves by august 22nd, so that the issue may be litigated. Now, either there is a really unusual psychic connection between the maralago judge and one of trumps former lawyers, or, back with us is andrew weissmann, former member of the special counsel Robert Muellers team. Coast of the prosecuting donald trump podcast, and the man, credit where credit is due game of that theory. That judge cannon surprised ruling just might be related to jim trustees on their arguments the day also before is joyce vance former u. S. Attorney and current professor of the university of at the university of alabama. And andrew let me just start, because no one put together this appearance where jim trusty says, d. C. Grand jury, Florida Grand Jury these two things cant mix, and then judge Cannon Mysteriously did sort of mirror of that argument some for rulings. Whats going on here . So first, regardless of how she got there, the fact of what she did is to say the least unusual she did it as you noted on her own and it showed a fundamental misunderstanding of basic 101 criminal law as to how grand jurys work. As to how they can continue investing ongoing crime of either an existing defendant or other defendants, and other crimes that may be committed. So, this is a classic case. It is also the case that you can bring a Grand Jury Investigation in any district where the crime may have occurred. Remember, when you start investigation, you dont even know that the crime has occurred or who did it, or where has occurred. So youre allowed to go to many different districts, where it could be the case, as long as you have a good faith basis. So this is such a fundamental understanding. And what i was thinking about is, where in gods green earth is she getting this idea. Because it is so off the charts from, everything in the record. Why is she doing this. Its not like the late against raised the issue. She is doing it on her own, and it is so wrong. And then, there you have jim trusty, the president s, the former president s former counsel. Raising this issue, the night before. And that morning she issues this. So its a real issue in terms of people who think that judge cannon may have learned her lesson, and this maybe can earn two point oh. She has really changed since the 11th circuit struck her down twice. This suggests. Not so. Not so. This is still cannon one point. Oh very much, or just cannon oh point oh, beta testing. Joyce, what are the implications here. I mean, did the prosecutors face any kind of repercussions here, or is this so unfounded, and so, for a lack of a better term, bonkers, that nobody is going to really take it seriously. I mean, could this affect the use, could this affect any of the materials derived from the closed door testimony of the grand jury in washington d. C. . No it wont have any impact on that Grand Jury Investigation alex, i think bonkers is a pretty good word to use to describe this argument. And andrew and i, andrew, we may have even been in the situation at one point. Its not unusual to have different u. S. Attorneys offices commencing investigation, because both of them are seeing some form of crime. At the same time, both offices baskin till they bump into each other, and then they will resolve the issue of which district will move forward with what charges. Nothing improper about having those grand jury is operating at the same time. But, beyond this idiosyncrasy, that andrew has pointed out in the argument that the judge raises, its not just that she raises it, its the context that she doesnt have. Because the government has asked for a garcia hearing. Thats a hearing into a Conflict Of Interest between one of the defendants lawyers, and his client. This is walt nadas lawyer, and he represents some of the folks, or is represented in the fact in the past folks who will be witnesses in this case. So the government asked the judge to set whats called a garcia hearing, so that they can go into open court and put that on the record, with the defendant present. Some defendants will hear that their lawyer has a Conflict Of Interest, and they might choose to reconsider that representation. You know, i dont want to be too suspicious here. I just find it to be possibly odd, that the judge has taken a motion that is supposed to be about one thing, and she has come up with this crazy theory, and instead she is trying to make it about that. So, ill throw a little bit of oxygen onto the flames of the argument that andrew is making. Well, please do joyce. Because i think even to the layman, this seems deeply problematic. I mean, its not just, its more than. I mean, this is a judge who has not had any Trial Experience almost. Shes very young, and lots of young people with knots a lot of experience do very good things. But this far, her Batting Average is not good. And, is their cause to maybe ask for a another judge at this point, if you are a prosecutor on this case . So alex, it actually gets worse then what weve discussed so far. Because, the government submitted to her some information, about these other people, who were cooperating for the garcia hearing that joe has talked about. And that was grand jury material. And the judge said, well why was this submitted to me under seal, you didnt set out a basis, and struck them from the record. The basis, i mean had the same reaction, which was back after our jaws clatter to the ground, the basis of the grand jury secrecy. I mean, that is again 101. There is no more than you need to say. And the second part is, she then said something about where the other investigation was, which is also grand jury secrecy. So, the government has to be thinking, what do we do at this point. Yeah, and joyce to that and. I mean, the thing that sort of rescued the Special Master Debacle was the 11th circuit, not known as a bastion of liberalism. Do you think somehow they get involved in this. I mean, there are plenty of trump appointed judges, and they seem to understand the law in the way that judge cannon does not . So i think we know that the special counsel does not want to have to go to the 11th circuit. He is trying to focus straight ahead, getting his case to trial. But that said, there are some things that happen where you can be forced to take an appeal to the 11th circuit, and its a court that is well versed in the handling a very pronged emergency appeal. So, i think we could possibly see an appeal here on the issue that andrew has identified, this notion that she wont let them put evidence that has to do with grand jury proceedings into the record, under seal. Again, thats a pretty standard thing to do. And they may have to appeal her, and feel like that would be a good time to raise the recusal issue, if they are so inclined. But you know, this is not an inexperienced judge when it comes to the way of federal prosecutors because before she, became a judge she was an assistant United States attorney in the Southern District of florida. She served in that appellate district she knows how the grand jury works. Its tough to believe that it is just a simple mistake. Oh, a little edge of nefariousness injected into their. Andrew weissmann, joyce vance, no two better people to weigh in on this topic. Thank you both for your time and expertise as always. Still more to come this evening. There is a new casualty in Florida Governor Ron Desantiss culture war. That casualties name is william shakespeare. We will explain that, coming up. Breaking news out of ohio. Democracy itself just one. That is next. One. That is next im jayson. 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Leslie it really is shared leadership with families, students, educators, and communities. Jessie i feel like were really valued as partners. David its a more innovative, holistic approach. Grant in addition to academic services, we look at serving the whole family. Narrator wellness centers, food pantries, and parental education. Jessie theyre already making a difference. David californias Community Schools reimagining Public Education. For democracy in ohio. The majority still rules in ohio. We have some Breaking News out of ohio tonight, where voters went to the polls in an election with just one single issue, a whole lot of implications. The Associated Press has now called the race that ohio has rejected ballot issue one with about 57 of the state voting no. That number is with about 52 of precincts reporting, according to unofficial results from the ohio secretary of state. Ballot issue one was a measure to raise the threshold for changing constitutional amendments. Essentially, it wouldve made those amendments harder to pass. Gerrymandered states, especially Ballot Referendums unconstitutional events have become some of the only ways that voters can make their voices heard, especially when it comes to big ticket issues like reproductive choice. Not coincidentally, there is one such a referendum on this novembers ballot in ohio, when that if it passes, could protect Abortion Rights and stands a very good chance of passing, especially with the result we have tonight. Thats why republicans in the state tried to make it harder to get those sorts of referendums passed. There have been record breaking turnout in this august election, which is somewhat ironic because earlier this year, State Republicans voted to eliminate august elections, citing the traditionally low turnout for the ones this time of year. Those very same republicans change their minds this summer, because presumably, that traditionally low turnout wouldve benefited them on this issue specifically. Having said that, as a last friday, 578,000 people had already cast their ballots, which is more than twice the number of people who voted early for the 2020 primary. Joining us now, katie parish, founder of red wine and blue, a group of suburban women working to counter rightwing extremism who also pose for ballot issue number one. Thanks for being here tonight. Congratulations are in order. This is an issue you are fought hard for. Can you talk to me about what women were telling you about ballot issue one, and what motivated them to go to the polls in ohio, a state that is redish, if not read entirely. Women were very clear in their rejection of extremism in this election. There is no doubt that our desire, that our demand to get our Reproductive Rights back, its huge as a motivating force in this election. Voters, suburban women are who we represent, and its just incredible to see these Election Results tonight. Counties in the suburbs that went for republicans in the u. S. Senate and governors race in 22 are voting overwhelmingly know tonight. We are also seeing that in our exurban, more Rural Counties as well. Its just incredible. These counties, j. D. Vance won by 60 or 70 , theyre voting by no. In our own county, one of our urban counties where cleveland s, but also has tons of suburbs, its where we have to go big. In 2020, to the turnout was just not enough to carry the state. Were seeing a dramatic difference here tonight. The turnout is blowing everyone out of the water. Everyone it has expectations, its good to be an ohio tonight. The ramifications are huge. Not just rejection of extremism in ohio, but republicans have gone too far across this country. Its not just trump. This is a big message against extremism tonight. On that, now certainly abortion seems to be a driver that continues to bring democrats, independents, and some republicans out to the polls. This was beyond just that. These are sort of antidemocratic tactics being embraced to make it harder for voters to have their voices heard. I wonder, you know, how that fit into the portfolio of reasons why people were going out. I wonder if you heard not just from women, but from independents who understood this to be what it is, which is again, a way of muzzling, if not censoring the voices of ohioans who have a tough time getting legislation passed given the gerrymandered nature of the state. It was a very blatant. That red wine and blue, a third of our members are former republicans and independents. If republicans keep trying things like this, those numbers are just going to continue to grow. These are absolutely not just democrats are rejecting extremism. It was independents, republicans as well. It was so transparently a power grab, just going way, way too far. Not only that, i think they really expected that hey, were just going to sneak this through. It will be a low turnout election. No one will notice. And they saw these huge numbers coming out in early voting. So they cranked up their disinformation machine, its been a shame to see what we have seen across the state in the last few weeks. There have been huge attempts to drive fear into the hearts of voters. Even my, group me personally, we have been targeted. As these targets of disinformation. What we have seen here tonight is that that doesnt work. The voters see through the disinformation. There have been backlash to that. Ive had women across the state telling me that its just motivated them, not just to vote, but to reach out to their friends, and to their family. Make sure that everybody is voting no in this election. Its about our democracy. Its about our values, its about being able to have a voice in our state. That went way beyond any partisan lines. Can i ask, are you assuming if youre as bullish on the passage of the Ballot Referendum in november that would ensure on the womens right to choose into the State Constitution . The numbers track almost evenly in terms of support for that with opposition to ballot issue one. Do you think that this is the same sort of turnout, that will be the case in november . Ive never been more excited to vote yes in november. That is what im hearing from voters across the state tonight. Red wine and blue was part of this amazing coalition across the state, collecting signatures. You might know that we have collected 710,000 signatures to put reproductive freedom on the ballot. That effort started in march. Every single voter that we spoke to, we said okay, you are signing to put reproductive freedom on the ballot in november. First, you have to vote no in august. Then you get to vote yes in november. We are just so, so excited for that opportunity tonight. We know that every poll shows, i dont trust every poll, but every poll from everyone shows that 57, 50, eight 59 of ohio voters will support this Reproductive Rights amendment. Some of the numbers are just incredible. 85 of independent women support the Reproductive Rights ballad an issue live. Im very excited. Im proud to be in ohioan tonight. I do expect to get results in november. Congratulations on your work tonight. Katie paris, founder of red, wine, and blue, thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you so much. Still to come this evening, its a comedy of errors, but it isnt funny. Florida schools are bearing the brunt of Governor Desantiss latest front in the culture, wars we are going to explain all that coming up next. At coming up next. When it comes to your hair, ingredients matter. Thats why Herbal Essences is packed with naturally derived Plant Ingredients you love, and none of the stuff you dont. Our sulfatefree collections smell incredible. 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If hillsboro english students want to read a whole shakespeare play, they have to do it on their own time. That is happening because of the new expansion of floridas parental rights and education act brought to you by Governor Ron Desantis and known as the dont say gay act. That law tells schools to steer clear of content and class discussion that is sexual in nature unless its related to standards such as health class, the Hillsborough County spokesperson told the Tampa Bay Times that they took that law into consideration when they redesigned their lessons planted this year, and what they came up with was just touching the non sexy parts of shakespeare. Not the entire plate. As the paper, put in staying with the experts, the schools can teach about shakespeare while avoiding anying racy or sexual. This means the hamlet and mcbath, maybe the most High School Play of alltime, romeo and juliet, none of them will be taught in their entirety. Just the excerpt. So that highschoolers minds will be shielded from a 16th century innuendo like this. Come you spirit with mortal thoughts. Shall i lie in your lab . Do you think i meant . I think nothing, my lord. It is not hand your foot you are on your face. You or any other part belonging to a man. The guidance here is naked shakespeare but not as broadcast the School Board Member reacted to Governor Desantis in the real effect of his war on woke, it feels like much of this is intentional, she said. In order to cause as much chaos and Public Education as possible so that the collapse of Public Education is swift, and the agenda of education privatization it can move forward with less obstacles. All of that is happening as the governors president ial campaign is absolutely imploding. The latest on Team Desantis is coming up next. Coming up next so it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning and you know i didnt. It makes my running shoe look like new. Its amazing wow, it makes it look like. 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Streaming was never this easy, you know. This is the way. You really went all out didnt you . Um, its called commitment. Could you turn down the volume . Here, you can try. Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. If donald trump were to be found guilty by a jury, where do you see this going . A civil war. People of people have had it. We have had. There is a trump supporter in New Hampshire today telling nbc news that if trump is convicted, there would be civil war where we heard this before . Meanwhile, trumps nearest competitors for the republican president ial nomination continue to battle themselves. Just two weeks after rhonda scientists laid off more than a third of his campaign staff, today the campaign is retrenching again. Messenger news was the first to report the Governor Desantis has now replaced his 36 Year Old Campaign manager, he had no National Campaign experience with a 35yearold political aide with no National Campaign experience. Desantiss new campaign manager, james owed my, previously served as the governors Chief Of Staff in florida where he was known for spearheading the states disastrous antimasking and antivaccine policies during the pandemic. That is the desantis campaign. Meanwhile, former Vice President mike pence announced that he has qualified for the republican partys first primary today, which is later this month. It is cause for some celebration in pence world. The former Vice President is currently polling at 6 . Joining me now to make sense of all of this is tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark. I loved you newsletter today. You have a novel theory about why some of these, showy called him underdogs, may remain in the race longer than wood naturally make sense . Can you talk about that theory . It is partially a theory, but partially based on something that the desantis staffer told me. Stopped short when really suggested that maybe his candidate, some of these other candidates would stay in the race longer to amass delegates in the possibility that donald trump is convicted, in jail, legal troubles that he could not accept that nomination. To me, it feels like thats a Bargaining Stage of accepting a loss. Its happening rather early, before even the first debate. The fact that these guys have been talking about this, i show how desperate they are. And look, is there an outside chance that donald trump is in jail by next summer . Yes. I guess so. I think that we would all love to grab the popcorn and watch the Republican Convention fight with donald trump, have him fighting from his delegates from jail. It seems like that might be the best, the strongest position with which to fight the front runner. If that is your strategy, wait for the other guy to be in an orange jumpsuit, i mean, having said, that there is also the mathematical reality. A lot of republican early primary dates are winner take all, are they not . Yes. Exactly, there are a lot. Some proportional, donald trump has been changing that. Hes been being even more winner take all. There is no way that you can get to a majority this way. I think the thinking is, right maybe you stay around, or there is negotiation it has to happen. But again, this is all fantastical stuff. I think that it mostly just speaks to donald trump strength, just how desperate these campaigns are. Just how few outs they feel like they have. And you mentioned mike pence, for example, vivek ramaswamy, who with desantis, he is a 37 year old hindu who is claim to fame that hes beating the sitting Vice President. That is telling you where the party voters are right now. They want somebody maga, and vivek is trying to offer a pale imitation of trump. I think that thats why hes doing better. Thats what these establishment guys are going to come up with, they have these theories of how it might land in our favor. Tim, you posted this picture of desantis and at his event, i think its iowa. Can we pull it up . You did say that not all of his events have been this empty, but i myself was shocked that he couldnt pack all of it. Even with all of his campaign shakeups, this is a person who had a fairly sizable operation, you think his advanced team might do something to make sure he was packed. Resurprised . I was. As someone who spent three years, i would get it right, iowa, and over there, at this place, unlike good at crowd guessing. I never liked to do that. In this case, i had to count the crowd. 34 people showed up, kind of a big barn. We took this picture, i mean, why are they doing this . Why are you having this massively funded super pac . Its on the weekend. And again, there were some other events that were better, but going back to ramaswamy, later that same day, i saw him in an even smaller town two hours away with triple the size of that crowd. It looked a lot better. And you think it speaks to the problem that desantis is having getting any excitement for his campaign. You know its bad when you can actually count the crowd. Tim miller, thanks for the great reporting and insight. Thats our show for tonight. It is time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening, lawrence. The good evening, alex, im Speed Reading this New York Times report about the memo that is crucial evidence in jack smiths latest indictment of donald trump. Youre the Pronunciation Expert for kenneth i am not. Can i take a moment to apologize to you . I hadnt unglued authority is chesbrough, and then its cheeseborough. You think they would take