Third arrest and arraignment, the easy answer for the ex president s defense. The indictment specifically says that the president has the First Amendment right to speech. He even has a First Amendment right to lie. Its right here, this indictment is causing conduct not speech. And then, why the randomly assigned judge is bad news for the defendant. The complicated calendar of a republican front runner facing three criminal trials. And congressman jamie raskin on jack smiths decision to charge vil ghts law used to prosecute kkk violence. Check out detroit, check out philadelphia, check out atlanta. Good evening from new york, im chris hayes. But the third time in four months, donald trump will be arrested and arraigned tomorrow at the federal courthouse in washington d. C. Has got to be getting used to it by now. He will stand before a Magistrate Judge and enter a plea. As hes done in the last two cases. In the new Criminal Case laid out against him or attempting to steal the 2020 election. Tomorrow, he will be returning to the scene of the crime. As laid out in the detailed and sprawling 45page indictment by special counsel jack smith. The ex president charged with four felony counts, count one Conspiracy To Defraud the United States, come to conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. Count three obstruction of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding and count for, conspiracy against rights. That is a reconstruction. Prosecutors used here to charge the ex president for willfully seeking to disenfranchise voters. He is charged, along six unindicted, unnamed coconspirators. Five of which are believed to be attorneys who helped, according to prosecutors carry out trumps Corrupt Criminal Scheme to stay in power. Federal prosecutors say that trump orchestrated this scheme. Quote, by using dishonesty, fraud and deceit to impair, obstruct and defeat the lawful federal government function. By which the results of the president ial election are collected, counted and certified. Of course, in The World We Live In today, there is a whole machinery that exists, solely to defend donald trump. Is its a reason for being. And the folks that do that, day and night, day after day. Just going to throw out whatever defense they can. Even if the defenses are entirely inconsistent or intention with each other. But, the ex president is facing a serious trial. Arguably the most consequential of our lifetime. And he will, as is his right now an actual defense. Not the nonsense being spewed on social media or propaganda outlets. But a natural defense, in a court of law, under the rules of evidence before a jury of his peers. Who will ascertain whether or not he committed these crimes. Beyond a reasonable doubt standard. And there are defenses to be mounted in any Criminal Case. If it goes to trial. If the defendant doesnt plead that must be mounted. That is the way the whole system works. And one of the defense is clearly that trumps team is previewing. That they were going to argue in court. A Freedom Of Speech or defense. Here is how the defense played out this morning. It is the first time a sitting president is attacking a political opponent on First Amendment grounds. And basically making it criminal to state your position. To engage gotta give you a timeout on that. When the indictment specifically says that the president has a First Amendment right to. Speak he even has a First Amendment right to lie. Absolutely. This indictment is criminalizing conduct not speech. Its criminalizing speech. Why the randomly incised in a criminal, case that had to show that was not entitled to First Amendment protection. Were not talking about speech. There really are all kinds of conduct that might be reprehensible, that, morally wrong. Even insidious. Its particularly true with regards to speech. Because speech is protected by the First Amendment. And importantly. So this is not one of those cases. In fact, as she pointed, out none other than jack smith himself makes that point on page two of the indictment. Quote, the defendant had a right like every american, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome determinative fraud during the election and that he won. And one of the things, really indictment today, that it does so well is, smith and the lawyers that wrote this, really seek to clearly delineate when things move from protected speech, political advocacy, hardball politics, to a Criminal Conspiracy as laid out in the fact contained in the indictment. Nothing is more squarely in that latter character gory than the fake electors plot. I have been buried in the details, like many of you have, of january 6th, lead up, the aftermath, in this indictment contains the most detailed revelations about that specific conspiracy. The fake electors conspiracy is a plot we have seen in state after say, seven total, and the facts arent in dispute. Some of them are publicly broadcasted in realtime at the time. But crucially, to go back to the defense, the president s lawyer, ex president s lawyer is trying to mount, they basically have nothing to do a speech because all of this was kind of done behind the scenes. In some instances, i would in the wide open. But what is described in the fake Electors Scheme crucially s conduct, actions. Jack smith sums it up simply in the tail of the name of the details the plot. Here it is, quote. Trumps use of dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to organize fraudulent state slate of electors and caused them to translate false whatever gets to congress, the organized in that that caused them to do it, thats conduct, thats behavior. Those are actions taken in the world. Its not blah blah blah. The conduct is trump in his coconspirators reaching out to people, getting them to meet by a certain date, organizing, them congregating, them persuading them to sign fraudulently, to swear under oath, and to assess to the government that they are the rightful electors in states where they were not, which all parties knew they were not. And then to submit those fraudulent documents violated his government as if they were real, we know they did all that. Thats a matter of record. And it is all just textbook fried. And its all conduct. Its not speech. In jack smiths really detailed here. The most interesting part is a part where smiths office traces exactly the line where this fake electors plot goes from morally questionable but defensible legally to indefensibly criminal. He lays it out in detail. I quote him here. The plan, this is the fake electors planned, capitalized on ideas presented in memorandum drafted by coconspirator 5, who is believed to be canneries ally kenneth cheseboro. The memorandum evolved over time from a legal strategy to preserve the defendants rights to a corrupt plan to subvert the federal government function by stopping Biden Electors votes from being counted and certified. The first version of the memo, called the wisconsin memo, quote, advocated that, because of the ongoing recount of trump in wisconsin, trump electors there should meet and cast votes on december 1st to preserve the alternative of trumps electors laid in the event trump ultimately prevailed in the state. And what jack smith is saying here is, thats illegal activity. The idea of being, theres a safe harbor, we have to have electors by, in the no standing recount, we dont want to miss the safe harbor deadline, so if we have these electors meet, they are their free prevail in the recount. So jack smith says that memo, thats lawyering. Thats advocacy. Villiers the second memo called the Fraudulent Elector and hear jack smith says, it marked a sharp departure froms wisconsin memo, saying that they be used to is Fraudulent Electors to prevent biden from receiving the 270 electoral votes necessary to secure the presidency on january sacks. So smith is now describing what crosses over into a fraudulent scheme. The Election Fraud lawsuits. They now become contextual. The whole point isnt to preserve the possibility of your electors if you win in court or if you win in recounts. No, they realize they have lost those. The whole point now is to just defraud the government, to produce a fraudulent set of electors, to propose to the Vice President so that he convinced hell be election. And if you think i am coloring the case by calling the electors the fake electors plot, fraudulent, the federal prosecutor describe an email from an unnamed arizona who had been briefed on this plan. He had a conversation with coconspirator 5, who we think could be trump attorney and ally kenneth cheseboro. In it we think cheseboro walks him through the plan. The corrupt plan. It was ultimately executed in arizona. Heres how that attorney, who just got briefed on the phone, describe the plot. Kind of wild, creative, im happy to discuss. My comment too cheseboro is i guess theres no harm in it, legally, at least. I dont thats great judgment. We would just be sending in fake electoral voters to pence so that Quote Someone in congress can make an objection when they start counting votes and start arguing that the fake votes should be counted. Fake electors in quotes there. The fake vote should be counted by a lawyer briefed on the plan. Memorialized in an email. Is that speech . The truth of the matter is, in the defense the ex president s trying to mount, speech maybe in for the rest of the conspiracy. But fundamentally the conspiracys conduct. In this one section of the damning indictment, you have something that just cant have had any purpose other than to be fraudulent. There is no defensible First Amendment law where you can say well, they were just speaking. No, they were clearly not. They did something. They swore to something that was false, and then try to get the false statement entered as true. They tried to defraud the government. The facts are not in dispute. It was plainly a crime. It has been not one to all of us in an intuitive world stance, not new technical way, but we know this was wrong and violated something deep and profound. And there are other parts of the night monthly deal with the lies that trump used, and how he views those lies in the furtherance of conspiracy. But when smith and his team regularly lay out is that this was a crime. It was a vast Criminal Conspiracy, A Multi Pronged effort to stay in power, to steal the election, which culminated in the january six attempted coup, and now sets up, in the words of legal scholar rick hassan, the most important case in our nations history. We catherine is professor of law in political science. You can read that piece on the importance of the trial in slate. Com. Danya perry is a former Deputy Attorney general, yesterdays Office Southern District of new york, and they both join me now. Rick, that headline really grabbed me after day, and i really like the piece. Why do you think this is the most important trial in the nations history . Unlike the other claims against trump so classified documents in the hush money, they dont go to our democracy itself. And might be terrible to lead a national secret, but its not the same thing as trying to subvert an election. And really, as i argue in the piece, trump has not been held accountable anywhere. He was not convicted in the senate. Theres been no civil civil liability. This is the only chance to hold him liable for trying to essentially end american democracy. If he can get away with this without even trying to put him on trial, any future candidate who might look for extra legal means to try to turn himself from election loser to an election winner. I said this before, but the u. S. Is not the only country in the world. There are many countries that have been experiences with different forms of government. And there have been attempted coups in countries that were democracies. And generally, when you try to do a cool, its sort of a situation. You succeeded you become the person in power, or you dont succeed and you end up in prison or worse. Its a very weird situation to try a coup, fail, and then hang out on the golf course for two years. Its not usually the way that it goes in other places. Its generally understood that this is criminal. And danya, you have worked on looking at a model prosecution and thinking about how the facts as revealed to the 800 pluspage report fifth with u. S. Criminal code. And im curious what you think of the decisions made here by smith and what the charges are and how strong the cases. I think its strong. Its fairly, as you just explained, it is laid out in a Pretty Simple format, easily understandable, digestible bets. The way its organized, i think, and state by state, or as you said, kind of a sequence, the chronology, the story of the evolution of the false electors slates scheme. Its all readily understandable. I think its very carefully crafted and just to go to the point that you were just raising, in terms of this question of defense of, quote, unquote, free speech, one has to only look at the statute in the elements for approving a Conspiracy To Defraud the United States. The elements are simple. There has to be a scheme to commit something unlawful. There has to be criminal intent. And there has to be over act over to act in furtherance of the skin. So a bunch of people sitting around in a basement, state house, plotting to submit a false electoral slate, thats not a crime. Doing anything in furtherance of it, and theres paragraph after paragraph, of the overt acts done in furtherance, is what takes us from something which could lie in the realm of First Amendment speech to the realm of Criminal Conspiracy that is actionable, and well see what a jury says, but perhaps well actually and in criminal conviction. Lets talk about criminal intent, one of the most important aspects of this, and it clear that i think theres three prongs to the defense. Criminalizing speech in front of conduct, he was relying on his lawyers advice. And then this third one having to do with intent. Ill read here today from his lawyer saying i would like them to try to prove Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that donald trump believed that these allegations were false. Basically, rick, the notion that he is so, that he is essentially clinically deluded about the reality of the matter, despite the repeated evidence presented to him time and time again, said in the indictment. That clinical delusion means he is incapable of forming criminal intent. What do you think about that . I think thats a really weak argument. Besides the fact that theres good reason to believe that he didnt actually think that he won the election. Imagine if he said to mike pence, im going to break your legs and hurt your family if you dont throw out the electoral votes from wisconsin, even if trump believed that he had won the election, that would still be a crime. Hed be using words that wouldnt be protected by the four First Amendment. So its besides the point what he secretly believed or publicly says about whether the election was stolen. It doesnt give him the right to engage in criminal conduct. Thats what this indictment alleges. What do you think, danya . I completely agree with rick. Thats not a defense. First of all, there is, of course, reams of evidence that show that everyone critical around him was saying there was no fraud, and the former president himself said things to that effect. But here exactly its not. Its not a true defense. The question is not so much did he believe the election was truly stolen, but what act, further to your point, did he take, did he and his coconspirators take, regardless of his subjective State Of Mind . Did he believe that these electors that submitted the certificates to congress, were they the true electors, or did they go to a basement somewhere and say they were in the state house. There are so many questions like that. An important point. Not did he think it was stolen from him, but did the Electors Scheme, did they believe the electors were what they said they were, the rightful electors. And that, i think, is a tougher case to make. Rick hasen, danya perry, thanks so much for your ticoming U Ountry Hree trials an county around a president ial campaign were gonna go down that path. Attention. Are you suffering from hearing loss . The fda has finally approved hearing aids to be sold over the counter. And now, rca, introduces their Revolutionary Otc hearing aids. 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What would that reality look like . Well i guess i wouldve gotten us xfinity. And wed have a better view. Do you need mulch . What, we have a ton of mulch. When i first learned about my dupuytrens contracture, my physician referred me to a Hand Specialist. And im glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldnt lay my hand flat anymore. The first Hand Specialist i saw only offered surgery. So, i went to a Second Hand Specialist who also offered Nonsurgical Options which felt more right for me. So, what id say to other people with dupuytrens contracture is this dont wait find a Hand Specialist trained in Nonsurgical Options, today. The front runner for the i found mine at findahandspecialist. Com. Republican nomination faces felony count three defenders fictions. That makes very different color to negotiate. As you can say to hear, political aides notably. Little bits and red. Starting tomorrow, his third arrest and arraignment for Election Fraud. Also on indictment watch in georgia this. Months ahead of the first republican president ial debate just three weeks from today. In january, there is another civil trial scheduled in e. Jean carrolls latest definitions. Landing in the same day as the iowa caucus. Come march, Super Tuesday a trial for Hush Money Payments in new york as currently scheduled. May is the trial date for the classified documents case in florida ahead of the Republican National convention in july and soon they travel have to be scheduled for the new indictment in washington d. C. Which jacks mitt hopes to have wrapped up before the election in november. Now, they defended donald trump will have to be in all criminal trials and there is only one of them. So how exactly is that going to work. Harry lippman is a former u. S. Attorney for the Western District of pennsylvania and former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Legal Affairs Columnist at the Los Angeles Times where he wrote trump spacing is most important dominate. Catherine christian is a former prosecutor in the matt hatton District Attorneys Office both run now. Its great to have you here. First let us just talk about, start with you catherine. In your time, have you ever seen a defendant to have three different trials and three defenders stations at the same time . You cant try them simultaneously. Actually there are defendants weve had multiple indictments. Hurricane unfortunately it happens all the time. Usually with violent defendants. They have the will try one, get convicted and pleads for the. Others or plead for all of them. Clearly that is not going to happen in this case. So right, if someone goes up and down the east coast assaulting people, or killing them, or Something Like that. Or through new york in different counties in new york. And different counties. Sure. Generally the way that plays out is, one of those goes first, and theres a trial. Usually the most serious. One the most serious one. Or the federal one. Yes. And if that is secured, then they all fold. Or if its acquitted, its also the other way. And when this, once let me try that. One but if theres a conviction on one, particularly the federal, and the more serious state one, they all fall. So now lets talk about, so lets if you have different jurisdictions. So now weve got different jurisdictions in the federal system, two different jurisdictions, and then a state case in new york. What is the interplay between the federal primacy and state primacy, and then between the two federal jurisdictions . Normally done informally and an interesting aspect of whats going on. Jack smith is playing very close to his vast. As is fani willis. So we dont know. But i think heres how its gonna work. I think fani willis has suggested that shes giving him some birth. Shes not gonna go to the end of the month. Alvin bragg has done the same thing, and i think obviously jack smith wants to bring this one before. So as a practical matter, and its otherwise a logistical big challenge, i think were going to see this case built for speed happening first. Why, though . Because thats you think smith preference anything the local prosecutors in alvin bragg and fani willis, if, they will defer their schedule. Alvin bragg has said. That will be up to the judge. But we know the judge will probably do so as well. So youve got all Prosecutors Office is saying hey, you guys prioritize your trial. And you think smith wants this before documents . No doubt. And the number one aspect of this indictment, to me, the caption. Usa versus donald trump. Seven defendants here, seven times the challenges. This one is built for speed. No classified documents issues. A lot of witnesses, but its going to be, i wouldnt say straightforward, but you dont have all of those issues with classified documents. And not as much pre trial. Exactly. So you see the reason its built for speed because it one defendant, no classified issues. On the other hand d. C. Could judge. That is where we unless the gets changed. Its a lawyer saying he wants to move the trial. The constitution of the United States, if im not mistaken, i think its the sixth amendment rights is that you have youre entitled to a trial of your peers in the venue where the crime was committed. Totally. People forget that part, its very important. And all you need, of course, it 12 poorest persons good into true. It is a matter of 98 voted against him. I dont think you can argue for a venue change because people voted he will argue. That he will. But so lets say, you guys seem to be in agreement, this is the one that is built to go first. Okay. Lets stipulate that. Whats a reasonable, catherine, do you think a reasonable time for it . This is interesting. Were saying this one should go first. I wonder if judge cannon will agree to that, because she has this date in may. But i would say if judge cannon agrees, its in may. Its enough. Time use the may trial great. Regulates down march, and if cannon were to defer theres no way in the world this case if it starts in april will be over by may. I would say it will be may, that would be the request. But well find out what the request is. The defense is fighting this. But by the time this really comes up, and by the way, i dont think that caplan is going to move the e. Jean carroll case, and thats going to be a really rough one for trump. But he doesnt have to be there. But in any event, by then things will have moved with the maralago case, i think. It will be that kind of free birth for this one. You think that by then, the maralago has already slipped off . I guess the question is, okay, using we should do this, its important that they should be tried. I think its important for all Trump Parties to be tried. Then its a question where it comes to how much they can delay and how much can they delay it . Is it the circuit, the supreme court, if they expedite the review of this decision by judge makes. You cant appeal every decision. There are only certain appeals, either side, and so the judge determines when the case goes to trial. Clearly if the judges off of her rocker, which this one isnt, things happen. She has a reputation for moving cases along. Clearly, this is the biggest case ever in the United States history. I dont think that she is going to be moved because of that. Obviously they are in titled to make motions. They have to have enough time to try the case. I dont think that this judge will allow for unnecessary limitless delay. And what she said very quickly, if it goes to the Court Of Appeals, and i dont think that they have much spaces for doing it. This is a Court Of Appeals in contrast to the other circuit that knows the high jinx very quickly. All right, catherine, christian, thank you very much. We learn something there. Still ahead, about that judge we were just mentioning. She is about to the federal court system, the judge you get in the case is much less random outside of right wing abortion groups finding seats in jurisdictions to that judge. That aside, in florida donald trump randomly drew a judge it happens to have been appointed, and given a wildly favorable ruling that was then overturned by the Appeals Court above her. In a new case in washington, d. C. Is, its a far different story. A judge more experienced then aileen cannon, chutkan, a Public Defender. And two questions including whether to reject trumps bid to keep papers related to january 6th away from the January 6th Committee. That ruling, saying in which she wrote for the government. She said president s are not kings, on the plaintiffs not president. Chutkan as also overseen cases against 30 january 6th defendants, heading out a man convicted of assaulting police officers. It has to be clear, judge chutkan said, trying to violently overthrow the government, stop the peaceful transition of power, assaulting Law Enforcement officers in that effort is going to be met with absolutely certain punishment. Nbc news justice Reporter Ryan Reilly has been just covering the January 6th Trial since they got into action. Other of the upcoming, sedition hunters, haugen your sixth roast it is a fantastic piece of work. And ryan joins me now. Ryan, how would you describe judge chutkan . Both a reputation, and what youve seen in person. Its been really interesting to see how shes handled these cases overall. She isnt always sentenced people to the government request. She has done a pretty frequently. There are a number of cases are g undercutting. That is one of particularly young defended. Lets she said that because of the age, there was what she would factor. And shes basically said that the certainty of punishment is very important. The studies kind of bear that out. A couple of these cases where prosecutors have said that Home Detention was fine here, she said, no there needs to be a little bit of skin in the game. You have to do some time. It wasnt as though she was sending them from extraordinary sentences, but definitely some period of incarceration she emphasizes is really nothing necessary. One case remember that stood out to me, she was saying that i think, quote, it was important that this individual went there not because of their love for country were supportive democracy, but because of quote, one man. Not of course, mentioning how the man was specifically, but you can figure that one out who she speaking about. And she also, just in sort of a in terms of her career, judge cannon isnt overseeing a lot of criminal trials. In fact, had not had a chance of trial experiences a judge. Managing as a judge is really challenging, technically speaking. It seems like judge chutkan has already managed a ton of this. Its something that she seems to have been doing for nearly a decade. She has. One of the most interesting things, and ive seen her do this in numerous cases, compare and contrast the normal cases she handled regularly. People who have very few advantages in life, and how severe this advantages in life. Just contrast it that with some of the privileges of the individuals who stormed the capitol. That is definitely a theme that they head on before, saying that a lot of these people that she saw it in regular life, in fact that she represented as a Public Defender, had a more rough go than some of these individuals who stormed the capitol, and really just pointing that out. Saying that, you know, justice has to be handed out equally. It was important to send that message given the unprecedented nature of what happened on january 6th. You are tweeting today about some of the sentences shes handed out, and she has handed out some of the longest sentences. She had the record for a while of the top two sentences, mike ponder getting 32 months in federal prison, three months over what the doj requested. And roberts, Got The Longest January 6th sentence. I guess my question is, what is your confidence in her ability to manage this . You know, given the record she has, given what youve seen of her in the courtroom. I think shes doing a great job of handling, it overall, my Immediate Reaction was, gosh, it is not a question of whether we will see those attacks, weve already seen how many there are in reaction to the january 6th cases regularly. Any case she had handled, and could be racist black lash. Multiply that by multitudes, thats what were going to have in this case. Whether the marshals are going to have to set up security for her. Its just having that case come to you. Its really going to be quite extraordinary. Its an unfortunate reality that my first thought when i saw that she was the judge was about that, and was about the Security Situation and burden that she will be bearing because of what it means to be the target rhetorically of donald trump. Ryan riley, thank you very much. Still to come, the January 6th Committee introducing the world to Donald Trumps undemocratic scheme. Congressman jamie raskin on the specific importance of the third trump indictment. A little History Lesson on, ahead. Upbeat music [ Tires Screeching ] director cut jordana, easy on the gas. Force of habit. I gotta wrap this commercial, i think im late on my payment. Its okay, the general gives you a break when you need it. Yeah, we let you pick your own due date so you can pay your Car Insurance when its best for you. Well thats good to know, because this next scene might take a while. [ helicopter and wind noises ] for a great low rate, go with the general. In the final words of the 45page commitment of donald trump. Prosecutor jack smith ends the document with the charge against the ex president. Conspiracy against rights. Quote, defendant Donald J Trump did knowingly combine, conspired, confederate and agree with coconspirators known or unknown to the grand jury to injure, oppress, threaten and intimidate one or more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of a right and privilege secured to them by the constitution and laws of the United States. That is the right to vote and have ones vote counted. Donald trump is the first president to be charged with section 2 41. Of the u. S. Code, far from the first person charged with it. The second probably when mean much to anyone. What is the first series of reconstruction era acts known as the ku klux klan acts. Its one of the first charges brought under this law, over 100 years ago against two elections board officials in blaine county, oklahoma. The men were part of a three person board, and during the 1912 election, they engaged a conspiracy that, quote left out of their official canvas all of the votes from 11 precincts where they grandfather clause, a jim crow era law to disenfranchise black citizens hadnt been zealously in force. The result was to drop some 1200 votes, mainly cast by black and native citizens. The Conspiracy Led to a narrow loss by a house candidate that shouldve rightfully one. The law has been used to punish all kinds of intimidation since then, according to the washington post, including to prosecute members of the kkk that carried out the 1964 Freedom Summer murders as well is the 99 who oversaw the burning of a cross in the front yard of a Puerto Rican Man and his mexican wife. Theres even people waiting to be statute this fall. Back in march, a trump supporter named Douglas Mackie was convicted of using twitter to disappearance disenfranchise voters in the 2016 election with the help of russian troll farms. Spreading misinformation about voting, posting tweets like this one targeting people of color who supported Hillary Clinton falsely claiming they could vote by text message. Hes waiting for sentencing. The circumstance that we find ourselves in today with the next president joining that list of people charged under 18 usc section 2 40, one on the one hand unprecedented, and the defendants level of power. The breadth of the offense, and on the other hand, firmly rooted in the ugliest and oldest american tradition. The opposition, by any means necessary with the promise of full multiracial democratic equality. Uality when i first learned about my dupuytrens contracture, my physician referred me to a Hand Specialist. And im glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldnt lay my hand flat anymore. The first Hand Specialist i saw only offered surgery. So, i went to a Second Hand Specialist who also offered Nonsurgical Options which felt more right for me. So, what id say to other people with dupuytrens contracture is this dont wait find a Hand Specialist trained in Nonsurgical Options, today. Much of the foundation of i found mine at findahandspecialist. Com. Goli, taste your goals. The third criminal indictment against donald trump comes from the extensive painstaking work of the January 6th Committee. The partisan panel was formed in the summer of 2021, spending nearly 18 months investigating the insurrection, the plot to steal the 2020 election. The committee presented its findings in ten public hearings last year, in december, releasing an extensive 845page report which gave prosecutors a roadmap to continue chasing leads in calling witnesses. Maryland democratic congressman jamie raskin served on the select committee as a professor of constitutional law. He joins us now. Its good to have, you congressman. Let me ask you to again, how you conceive of the relationship between the committees work and the department of justice in jack smiths indictment. We created with a legislative oversight committee, a factual reconstruction of the events leading up to the january 6th, and a description of Donald Trumps multipronged assault on american constitutional democracy and attempt to overthrow the election. That factual framework with the referral of four criminal charges that we synthesized down to, that became the basis, at least theoretically for the beginning of their work. I know that a lot of it had started before that, but i think that it did help to structure their investigation and theyre thinking about it. At the very least, prepared all of The Americans for what was to come, because a lot of the time its lapsed between now and january 6th, 2021. That period couldve been filled up with a lot of propaganda, disinformation by forces. We told the story that penetrated the national consciousness. I think it got people ready for these very dramatic charges, which are completely fitting for Donald Trumps crimes. You are somebody who are a constitutional scholar. I think that you think a lot about the nations second founding, the reconstruction era amendments, the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. And the lies associated with that time. And theyve cited lincoln particularly a bit and his thoughts about the insurrection, because thats what he was facing. Were you surprised, what was your reaction to seeing one of the indictments as a conspiracy to deny americans rights under those Reconstruction Laws . It was thrilling. That count goes right to the heart of what was actually taking place. Lincoln said it best. He said that an insurrection is fundamentally an assault on the very first principle of democratic government, which is that the people get to choose their own leaders. There are lots of ways to steal an election. You can steal it with literacy tests, poll taxes, grandfather clauses. Or by stealing the ballot boxes, throwing peoples ballots away or engaging in all of those different kinds of shenanigans that donald trump did leading up to january 6th. There are people that have gone to jail for that, and its shocking to me that they think somehow they have a free speech right to engage in a very violent insurrection or political coup against american constitutional process. One of the criticisms that was levied against your committee was that it was insufficiently adversarial, and i will say that that is just because Kevin Mccarthy just decided not to appoint members when and see pelosi rejected a few of the original proposed members. He just kind of took his ball and went home. Instead, there were other republicans appointed. Adam kinzinger and liz cheney quite famously. This will be an adversarial process, do you think that that is good . How do you conceive of the import of this trial, and also the president mounting a defense . Of course, all of this is within the american rule of law. Our system of justice. Donald trump starts off with the presumption of innocence. He has every right to due process. Hes got a judge, judge chutkan who was herself a Public Defender and a Criminal Defense Lawyer who is extremely attentive to the rights of criminal defendants, and also understands that our constitution has at least six different provisions that explicitly oppose insurrection, and attempts to overthrow our government. Shes the perfect judge for this case. This is where the case ultimately belongs. We played a very important purpose in terms of Public Education about what happened to us. It takes a village, a nationwide village to deal with an attack like what we saw on january 6th. Do you think the average voter, american understands how close it all came . . I do think that there is a little bit of even though people dont like donald trump, hes a ridiculous figure, but just the narrowness of the margin by which the american Constitutional Republic was preserved. Do you think that people understand it . If mike pence had caved into all of the pressure, and decided to step outside of his constitutional role and proclaim donald trump to be the new president or unilaterally nullify the Electoral College votes as trump and his people were egging him on to do. That wouldve changed everything. If half of the police force had just walked off in despair, which they didnt, they were bloodied and wounded. They fought until the very end, it wouldve changed everything. We came extremely close. As close as we should ever come in our lifetimes. Congressman jamie raskin, a y close, as close we should ever come in our lifetimes. Congressman jamie raskin, thank you, sir. Alex wagner tonight begins right now. Great show as always. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Heres something to keep in mind about yesterdays federal criminal indictment of former president trump. It is a huge national, even global story. Honestly one of the biggest news events of our time, of any time. But it is also very much a local news story. Heres the Atlanta Journal constitution, efforts to overturn Georgia Election detailed in new trump indictment. And the detroit news, donald trump made knowingly false