each other. joining us is the aclu's political director and dave hoppy of hoppy strategies. let's start with this. which is better for the united states, whether bannon is on the ups or kushner is on the ups. i'll start with you on this. >> i think this debate reflects the fact that donald trump is a poor manager. he's responsible for creating this chaos around him. if he wants to try to blame steve bannon for his own problems, that's weakness. that's cowardliness. he's the one tweeting about crazy things that the former president was wiretapping his phones. he's the one making the decisions to repeal the affordable care act, to institute the muslim ban. at the end of the day, if he wants to put that on to somebody else in his administration, that feels like weakness and throwing somebody under the bus for his own failures. >> dave, which is better for america, which is better for this president, whether it's kushner on top or bannon on top?