you know, those thoughts. >> larry: but they also teach, wanda, love the sinner, hate the sin. >> they don't teach that enough. you know. and it's -- they don't teach the love part. i'll put it that way. they don't teach the love part enough. and it's all driven on by fear. you know, it's -- i believe a lot of people -- like if it were my own family. you know, i believe that the big problem that my family had with me is that, you know, it's the superstition and it's the fear that if i accept you then i'm accountable and then i'm going to go to hell. which is -- it's crazy. >> larry: is it -- did you make a conscious decision, tim, to be gay? >> oh, certainly not, larry. as a matter of fact, growing up, i didn't really know who i was when it came to my sexuality. but i knew who i wasn't. and there just weren't a lot of positive role models for me