Transcripts For CSPAN3 Norfolk 20240704

Palestine derailment. [inaudible conversations] the science transportation order. Ee will come to for the purposes of a hearing. We are here this morning at the full committee for improving rail safety in response to the East Palestine correlator i would ask the witnesses to please join us for the first panel at the witness table. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] good morning, everyone. The hearing will come to order. On february 3rd, the town of East Palestine, ohio, experienced a Hazardous Material event that no community should have to suffer from, and Norfolk Southern train carrying Hazardous Material crashed just outside the town,n, and 38 carso more than according of the train derailed. One of the cars caught fire, in gold and gold of the rope cars including five caring vinyl floor. After burning for two days, authorities became concern the vinyl chloride and one of the tanks was undergoing a Chemical Reaction that made it bigger and more dangerous pick the authorities then initiated a controlled burn of the remaining vinyl chloride in five tanks to get a greater catastrophe. 2000 residents were forced to evacuate, and a community was forever changed. We look forward to hearing the witnesses and crucially especially appreciate the palestinian monster the leadership and we look for to hearing from ms. Allison this morning. Let me be clear, this is not only though about East Palestine derailment. Less than a week ago a Burlington Northern santa fe train derailed in my state of washington spilling 5000 gallons of diesel, near a very sensitive aquatic ecosystem. These are important issues for all of america and we look forward to working in a bipartisan basis on this problem. A Fire Department needs to do with the Hazardous Materials and we will be asking you what congress can do to better equip the firefighters who had to respond. These derailments have occurred during ath concerning trend. That is, we cant have railroads adopt operating models both on just cutting costs to achieve higher profits and then have higher accident rates. We need to invest in the modernization of equipment that will provide the safety we need. From 2017 2021 railroads that the workforce by 22 reduced investment in the network by 24 . At the same time accident rates increased by 14 . We will dive into the details today to better understand what is at about. Today well hear from senator brown and senator vance about their bipartisan legislation, Railway Safety act of 2023 and from how Governor Mike Dewine about his experience in responding to the derailment. We will hear from us imagine earlier is palestine president Misti Allison who give a firsthand account of how the drama impacted her community. We also hear from a second panel of witnesses who will speak to radio and Hazardous Material safety policy failures that contribute to the derailment and what steps are necessary to protect communities, boys and the environment. Ntsb chair will be here and i look forward to asking her about the agencies recommendations to improve rail safety and about what investments in detection devices are necessary. Mr. Whitaker, you and your coworkers that raise questions about safety. Well hear from you about what you believe these concerns have gone unaddressed and will hear from Norfolk Southern Ceo Alan Shaw about these trends and what hes going to do to ensure that safety is the top priority. A month ago i sent letters to seven class one freight railroads asking for information about the Hazardous Material safety practices. Nearly all of them failed to provide the committee with the specific information that were requested. Have to say the snf did provide us with information about past inspection but we need clear information from organizations where we are today with safety inspections. Let me be clear, we need to know exactly what organizations areod doing today to make sure inspections are helping us to detect problems. I and is legislation in 2015 that is some of the same provisions that we now see in the brown pants bill press with some of those had been implemented sooner. Our two colleagues are working very diligently to make this a top priority here in congress. And working hard to represent these communities. I believe our committee can in a bipartisan fashion to improve rail safety, but it shouldnt go unnoticed the same issues are plaguing us in other areas of transportation. We want of the safest system, you have to have the most modernized equipment, the most minimal of workforce standards, and you have to continue to improve safety. Without ill turn over to the Ranking Member senator cruze for his opening comments. Thank you madam chair. What you think the witnesses for being here today. Welcome senator brown. Like so many other americans, i watched with dismay the horror that unfolded in East Palestine, ohio. On television we saw fiery train wreck where nearby residents were understandably fearful that the water was poisoned and the air wasis polluted. The distress of these palestinians residents was real then, and it is real now. For beingn thank you here and testifying today. Thats what is important to holding this hearing. This hearing will address to make critical topics. First, what can be done to prevent derailments like the one that occurred in East Palestine. Second, what can be done more broadly to improve the safety of trains transporting Hazardous Materials . While these topics are related, and each topic i think merits its own hearing, it appears this point make their owns opportunities as a full scommittee to examine the East Palestine derailment and the broader questions about Railroad Safety policy. To be clear, i agree with senators around and pants that Railroad Safety should be on our agenda, tha it is an opportunity for real and meaningful bipartisann cooperation. My team and i will continue engaging withh their staff and with the chairwoman step and im optimistic that we can achieve broad agreement on policies that improve safety, the protector committees without at the same time damaging our supply chain or imposing unreasonable cost that would ultimately harm american families. We need to do both. Today when you do what led to the derailment in East Palestine. Ntsb has launched an investigation and appreciate chairwoman appearance are today. This committee is also looking for a closely at this derailment. Forasmuch as we know about the derailment, key questions remain unanswered. For example, who specifically mader the decision to vent and burn the vinyl chloride from all five derailed tank cars . And why rex were alternatives considered . Where the right people consulted . I also want to know what could be done to prevent or to mitigate similar derailments in the future. This committee should hear more about wayside detectors, and advanced technology that could use algorithms and Trend Analysis to identify potential safety issues earlier. We should hear more about Information Available to First Responders and about coordination shippers of hazardous s materials. Understandably, americans across the country share the concernsnt of the residents of east palestinian, and wonder are essential Hazardous Materials being transported safely . Will residents be protected if a spill occurs . Unfortunately, the delayed d disjointed response by the Biden Administration is not a laying these concerns. Notably, we heard calls from residents of East Palestine in the local school asking where is Pete Buttigieg . The response from these palestinians mayor conway was quote, i dont know. It took secretary buttigieg ten days to even acknowledge the derailment. After he was called out he did a 180 and tried to sell a slew of Big Government regulatory proposals, desperate to disguise the failure of the administration action. For example, secretary buttigieg has proposed reinstating a break rule that was not supported by costbenefit analysis. Shortly there after the of the ntsb chairwoman pointed heom tweeted about this role. She said go, some are saying the ecp, electronically controlled pneumatic break rule, if implemented would have prevented this derailment. False. She proceeded to explain the proposed brake rule would not have applied to the East Palestine train and would not have prevented the derailment even if it had. Undeterred secretary buttigieg been released a laundry list of migratory proposals many of which have little to no connection to the East Palestine derailment. In an effort to further distract from his own failed response, secretaryy buttigieg has suggested President Trump was responsible for the derailment in East Palestine. I know thats a frequent playbook of this administration, when every problem on President Trump. But not even the Washington Post fact checker who usually goes out of his way to back democrat claims bought this claim. The Washington Post fact checker concluded, and i i quot, from our analysis none of the regulatory changes made to drink a Top Administration at this point can be cited as contributing to the accident. Contrast to secretary buttigieg, our colleagues on this committee, senator vance has kept focused on what should become on of people affected by the derailment. I applaud him and applaud senator brown for focusing on their constituents and a look for to continue to work in close to both of you and with the chairwoman on a bipartisan serious real safetyri package. Thank you, senator cruz. The first panel will provide Committee Testimony about rail safety legislation being supported by senator brown and senator vance. We will hear how the Norfolk Southern derailment has t impacd the community. L first will hear from senator brown and then senator vance who was on the committee about the legislation. Next we will hear from Governor Mike Dewine who will be joining us remotely who has been governor of ohio since 2019. The former sin colleague of the welcome him back into the senate for purposes of his experience on this derailment. We look forward to hearing from you, governor dewine. And last we will hear from Misti Allison who is a member of the community from East Palestine, ohio. So thank you all for being here. Senator brown, you can leadoff. Thank you, madam chair. Senator cruze, thank you and members of the committee especially my colleague from ohio senator vance. I want to thank governor dewine for the very good work he has done in responding to this. Misti allison for activism. She said today with chair cantwell said this is her second trip to washington on half of East Palestine can get. Shes here soon after the loss of her mother. Misty, thank you for speaking up during this difficult time and for yournd leadership and our thoughts and prayers of course with you andth your family. I appreciate the work that senator vance has done on this legislation. Its been a bipartisan effort from the beginning. Appreciate the comments of senator cruze and chair cantwell. I was just in East Palestine again yesterday. I want to thank all eyewitnesses on t the second panel chief comstock of the western reserve joint artistic and Clyde Whitaker with Smart Transportation division that represents some 3000 rail workers in our state. I appreciate the work. Chief comstock speaks clear about the child to First Responders and can reduce the size of East Palestine have faced. Mr. Whitaker as an unrelenting advocate for safe working conditions for his members and for all people working on ohio railroads. The nation none of these posting is effective committee in Columbia County ohio. The year i was born, a couple of that, Columbia County made 80 of the tableware of this country, the dishes and classes, because of that trade policy those jobs first moved south and enough to mexico and the native to china. Thereed are no, there are no potteries in colombian county anymore. This committee and debris committees just ang couple miles away in either candidates and other kinds of places that are too often forgotten or explain what corporate america. Now these ohioans are worried about whether the water is safe to drink whether the area safe to breathe. Whether the kids would get s sik and industry to the committee highchair a trip i too would have developed of though. Of the weaver mr. Shaw said non is going to make it right, and put in East Palestine and do right come his words, by the committee. Senator vance and are going to make sure that East Palestine is not forgotten. We both make regular visits there, not next week, not next month, not next year, not ever. Do right by this committee must include making sure more accidents do happen. As a reason for our legislative efforts that will only occur if we take clear commonsense steps to make our railways safer. Norfolkol southern followed the wall street Business Model, boost profits and its stock price by limiting over the last decade 38 of its workforce. These profits were sent on stock buybacks that benefit executives instead of investing to workers in investing in safety. Instead they compromise safety, cut cost to boost profits incudes along the route began. For decades the railroads have lobbied to undermine safety rules, distall and even now ar what theyve done to do so how tempting even with the eyes of the country on them, madam chair. Pretty ugly arguments from Norfolk Southern and the Real Industries lobbying arm that they support the intent of the bill epitope would need stronger rules that we for that before. Elsewhere. And the rewards are committed to safety they say theyre making changes they claim mr. Jefferies prepared testimony goes to Great Lengths to hide safety problems in his statistics. Heres a statistic you will hear. Taking at grade crossings the accident incident rate for claflin railroads i that include the shortlived come classroom railroads is higher in each of the past four years than any year since 2008. I think it a it progress has been wipeded out. The trains are going longer, have you, more dangerous. The train and went off the tracks that East Palestine was 149 cars pick the kind of went off the tracks in springfield ohio rest of the come 150 miles only twoes weeks later was over 200 cars. There longer, have you come or dangerous salinity are about quote meaningfully improved safety. Weve heard over past monthpr mr. Jefferies that 99. 9 of rail has reached the destination without releasing toxic waste to talk to ms. Allison another script ive got to know in East Palestine about how it feels to be that. 1 . After dash asked if she thinks that microsoft to brag about. Railroads refused to support new rules for transit carry dangerous hazards but you like vinyl chloride that werent wer. Did cut the o meta time the carn iq and to inspect each railcar to less than one minute. The railroads have often argued against increasing fines for safety violations. Of course here. Most recent fiscal year available Norfolk Southern at 579 violations in the cases that have been close. They pay an average height of less than 3300. He heard that right, not 30 billion, not 3 million. Just over 3000, over 3000, the largest fine they paid that you was just over 25,000. The company keep in mind planned to spend 3. 4 billion on stock buybacks and the always did that and even more right before they were about to do it again when the train derailed. Its not the cost of doing business. It is a rounding error. The railroads are fighting most basic of all required risk two crewmembers in a train. If you asked 50 people outside any work how may people to think work on the strains that are 200 cars along or that are two or three miles long . You at your people say five, ten, 20. Railroads want only one person working on a train thats two or three miles long. Thats frankly crazy. Earlier this month Norfolk Southern issued a sixpoint plan of modest Safety Improvements. We dont need a voluntary plan to we need the brown and still do we need safety rules that we need the Railway Safety for our bills have by person centric senator manchin and are both your today to urge this meant to embrace the obvious need for safety reform. Madam chair, senator cruze, shouldnt take a Train Derailment for elected officials to put partisanship aside and Work Together. The people whom we serve, not corporations like Norfolk Southern. Thank you. Thank you, senator brown and thank you for accentuating this one point and is a train change that it dont think people are fully digest is the length of trains has significantly changed. I think it proposes definitely new challenges. Senator vance, thank you. Look forward to your comments and appreciate your work on this legislation. So thank you, madam chair. Thank you Ranking Member cruz for both of your engagement with this issue. Thanks to senator brown for partnership on this issue. Appreciate it, appreciate you being here. What you think all of our guests here both during the span of the next panel but i think we want to thank ms. Allison for being here. I read your testimony this morning and i wont, i will reveal whats in it because i dont want to give anything away but levy let it to say thay this happened. And as thean father of three kis under the age of six i was particularly affected by some of the ways thatff affected her children and old think of it as you, his talent because you are done so much with axes and appreciate that is that, you know, all we street offices as an open door. Theres more than we could be m doing other like to be doing it. I have new cash i am a new sender that you dont always get everything happening in the thing i would ask if you think we could be doing or just come and tell us because we will try to do that. Look forward to testify but let me just sort of address a couple of issues related to the Railway Safety act. Ive heard a couple of general complaints, a couplee specific complaint about the legislation from Industry Groups come from alleged conservative activists but i like to address them in adbroad strokes year and then address one specific consideration and then finally suggest that we might be able to deal with this bill and this legislation in the t future. So the most outrageous and the most ridiculous thing i for Industry Groups and other activists in response to this bill is that it somehow is a kind of bolshevism to require the railways to engage in proper Safety Standards, that this bill is a Big Government solution to the Railway Safety t problem. It is funny that that complaint comes from a group that came before this body three months ago begging for bailout from the labor dispute. On the topic but with thank you Ranking Member cruz for your leadership on the issue in particular but you cannot on the one hand, begged the government to bail youou out of the labor dispute three months agois and then say that its Big Government took proper Safety Standards in way that you conduct your railroads. Its a ridiculous argument. Doesnt pass the smell test and the fact that they advance that argument in the opeds and are paid for activism is insulting to the people of east palestinian. And its insulting to the intelligence of the members of this committee. Let me offer a specific push back to a criticism. One of the things ive heard in response to our legislation is that it actually has nothing to do with what happened in East Palestine. Well, that is an interesting observation and do something i would love then decode east palestinian and save themselves, say it to the firefighters who went into a chemical fire without proper hazmat protection because they did know what was on the train. This legislation fixes that problem as it should. If you cannot say that this has nothing to do with east palestinian when the very people on the ground are begging for some of these changes, and the firefighters not just in east palestinian all across the state of ohio and all across the country are saying that they need this stuff. Now ive heard from people that the railroads are adopting certain voluntary standards be cute some of the senator brown testily. They allegedly have an app that notifies the firefighters of thf First Responders with on the train. If the app was good enough, then why did it fail in East Palestine if the app provided proper notification and why did firefighters in my state seven weeks ago go find a chemical fire without knowing what was on it. Its a ridiculous argument. Now, i want to look for to the future and want to offer a suggestion to the Rail Industry in but else who wants to engage on this legislation. I had a good meeting with alan shaw you and up looking for just has one. Id love to see commitment for mr. Shaw to defend and to support certain components of this builder i c think would be good for the people of East Palestine and good for Norfolk Southern as well. One of the things we talked about is the hotbox sectors and whether weox need them every ten miles or every 15 miles or every 7 2 seven half miles d whether they should be enhanced by additional technology. Thats the type of conversation im going to happen to want to speak for senator brown but i guess he would probably be willing to have, too. Lets have a conversation about what the proper pacing for the hotbox, lets have a conversation about how we can advance this stuff with better technology. I am open to that. But to the Rail Industry dont like about my bill, dont slander the staff who drafted it. If you like tooo have a good fit conversation about rail safety exactly that. We are going to learn a lot about this committee and in the weeks to come if the Rail Industry would like to do that are out there will because im ready to join the conversation. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, senator vance, for your passion and support on this issue. I know it will make a difference and appreciate you pushing back on some of the misinformation that is out there. Were now going to go to governor dewine who is joining us remotely. Governor dewine, always good to see you. Not good to see you in the circumstances, we appreciate your leadership and helping to articulate a path forward and i would be remiss if i didnt also thank you foror your leadershipf the chips and science act in helping us get the legislation done. So we look forward to you getting your help and g support unmoving the brownvance legislation as well. So senator, i mean, our colleague but now Governor Kemp governor dewine. Chairwoman cantwell, thank you very much, Ranking Member cruz, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Actually as you can see remote and then in east Palestinian High School library. Let me too little bit about this community. F the new year started off normally in East Palestine. A village of about 4700 people. Just enjoyed christmas, the annual snowflake festival in december. The Third Quarter of School Started in late january. Parts have been cast for the high school musical, the lion king junior, and, frankly, my wife and i had the opportunity to watch a few days ago. And Athletic Director was preparing to host 2530 2s for the bulldog invitational track meet in april. The evening at february 3, 202323, started off really not unlike a lot of friday night in, that time of year in East Palestine. Parents and members of the community were gathered at the high school, cheering on the Varsity Boys Basketball Team at the bulldogs home game against United High School eagles from nearby hand overton. Girls varsity had played against the eagles just the night before. The backup of course to all things in East Palestine is that the near constant rumble of trains running through the village. But the people of east palestinian are certainly used to that and many dont even notice them even more. That was until 8 55 definite. 8 55 life stopping normal in this community. Stop feeling safe. 38 cars of the Norfolk Southern Freight Train carrying hundreds of thousands of pounds of Hazardous Materials hurdled off the track. Since then i visited the commute a number of times, and had mothers tell me the afraid to let their children go outside in the grass to play. Some residents have told me about their bloody noses, the rashes, their coughs that they have developed, while others who dont have symptoms now ask whats going to happen to me in ten or 15 years . Whats going to happen to my children . Some want to know if its if its safe to plant a garden this summer and if they do with the vegetables be safe to eat . People wonder about the Property Values other home and did he want to sell with the ever be up to sell their homes . Businesses worry about other going to be able to stay afloat . Many people just wonder real life ever return to normal . What is clear for all of east palestinian i is this, that this has been a deeply traumatic experience for the wonderful community. While all the test of the air and the soil and water have those far shown repeatedly things are safe, fear, fear remains. The people of east palestinian have told me that they want their community back. They want thing to go back to the way they were before the train wreck. Members of the committee, norfolkut southern has an obligation to restore this community. It was very train, their tracks, their action that they are responsible for this tragedy. I want to thank senator vance and senator brown, the other cosponsors of their bill, the real safety act of 2023, to also thank congressman johnson, congresswoman sykes for their bill, the rail act. Ungrateful the drafters both bills include my request for Provision Requiring that the rail carriers in the future be required to provide advanced notification to state and local Emergency Responders about what these trains are, in fact, carrying. Let me go further. I urge the senate and house to swiftly act to improve the safety, the safety of our railroads. Norfolk southern must do everything in its power to put everything back as it was in East Palestine before 8 55 friday, february 3. The people of this village have right, they have right to get their lives back together right to get r their community back. And simply t to get their piecef mind. Let me just add if i could one additional thing. Shortly after the derailment, i heard repeatedly from residents they were concerned about their health. So we worked with east Palestinian Community with the Health Department of those to create a clinic for the residents so they could be assessed immediately, so they couldd walk in and be cared for. Shortly after this tragedy occurred. This morning in this library both medical leaders from East Liverpool city hospital. We are now seen to date we will be making this clinic into a permanent clinic for the community. Is going to be a fullservice clinic that provides conference of care and treatment anyone can walk in. Anyone can be treated. This is a longterm commitment to the health of the commitment to the health of the people with this policy. There worried about the future and where things are going to be in five or ten or 15 years. Its important, i talked to the fire chief the of the day very concerned about the 300 responders from all areas who responded that might. He needs to be established at baseline and the be assured five or ten years or so in place. We look to the railroad to establish that fund. We believe the fund needs to be established in large enough to get nis people the confidence ty have that they will be protected in the future. Thank you so much for inviting me justify. Thank you for highlighting this about the clinic and needs of the community. Has. We will now turn to ms. Allen. Thank you so much for being here. Im sorry to hear about your personal loss we very much appreciate you being willing to testify today. Thank you for inviting me too testify. I am honored to be here but i wish it was under better circumstances. I am here to put a face on this disaster. This is not just a political issue. This is a people issue. Everyone who lives in East Palestine is aware of the trains that pass by. With never really thought about that. Now we cant think about anything else. We will never forget the night the train derailed. I could see a huge fireball for my driveway. It did not seem real. Did little did we know this was only the beginning. Might feel he chose to evacuate that many did not. None of us know exactly what dangers were on that train. We now know that train carried multiple toxic petrochemicals. What authorities conducted a controlled burn it was like a bomb went off. A bomb containing vinyl chloride which releases dangerous chemicals. When burned these chemicals never go away chemicals such as dioxins which are not safe at any level and cause damage that may not show up for years. Two days later our government told us it was safe to come home. But is it safe . People and animals in my community are sick. The epa tells us the data is fine. Independent researchers say theres a High Percentage of carcinogens all around us. Who do we trust . And then there is our mental health. The anxiety is real. Might seven year old has asked me if he is going to die from living in his own home. What do i tell him . This put a Scarlet Letter on our town. Businesses are struggling but our home values are plummeting. Even if we wanted to leave we couldnt, who would buy our homes . There are over 1000 Train Derailments last year. The expansion of the petrochemical industry means more trains carrying toxic chemicals will put more families at risk. Ellen schall has repeatedly said Norfolk Southern will make it right. But who determines whats right here . East palestine residents expect meaningful relief including short and longterm monitoring. Home value protection and actionable economic develop plan included Norfolk Southern Training Facility placed in our town. As of the Train Derailment was not enough, less than two weeks ago my mother lost her three year battle with cancer. My mother taught me for what to fight for what is right. I will always fight to protect the health and safety of my children, of your children and that every child in america. Remember, this is about people but this is about a community no one has ever heard of before becoming ground zero and a small town being destroyed overnight. We must have strong businesses i urge all of you to promote comments and safety regulations of this does not happen again. Together we can make sure East Palestine and the surrounding areas not only recover but thrive. And that no other Community Experiences is tragedy. My mom always told me that you find a way or you find an excuse appeared so it is time to move from this and move forward together. Lets find a way, not another excuse. Thank you. Think it ms. Allison. Unfortunately safety accidents we have often found that is the voice of the families who come forward and help keep the focus on to safety and security. So thank you for helping to lead this charge on this particular issue pretty very much appreciated. I doubt if anyone has any questions for the panelists here. If not we will turn to the second panel. Ms. Allison i wanted to emphasize for you or the governor or actually any of my colleagues. The issue of making sure theres proper equipment in the community. Everybody is in an agreement to give proper equipment to the community in advance. Is that right . Governor dewine is that where you are . Absolutely. Madam chair the other thing i talked with the ceo quite extensively about is training. In ohio most of our Fire Departments particularly in the rural areas are volunteers. The railroad has unique information and it is important they share that information about how you deal with train of fires. How you deal train wrecks. You pointed out that particular night they did not know what they are fighting. They did not know what they were dealing with. At least not for sure so training is very, very important. We are making progress in that regard but like all the roads to participate in that training. Med and chair . Center brown. We are working to create a fund. A Regional Fund for trading as governor dewine said m4 equipment. East apollo scene has one paid firefighter the teeth. Chief. I think about 22 voluntee. They obviously are not going to be able to train them all to combat hazmat fires. We look in a regional way all of the state the funding. With from the Chemical Companies and the railroads. So that they can all this sand on the place like East Palestine for 15 or 20 minutes away with the right equipment and the right training. Set of advance . I forgot my manners earlier madam chair i appreciate it. I wonder met while we have governor dewine yearwood to thank him for his lip hard leadership over the last six or seven weeks hes done a great job. The reason i bring this issue up is because we have of the same issue of the Pacific Northwest as it relates to oil Train Derailment speed and force enforcement happens in communities you might be good with a volunteer Fire Department and what resources are there theygoing to be in that communi . I think the committee has to really think about how we are going to what we can do to help communities be prepared in these instances . Madam chair . Met in chair. Senator klobuchar. I wanted to thank center brown and vance in the governor miss allison for this incredibly constructive testimony for i cannot even imagine what you have been through ms. Allison. And the fact you were able to come forward and testify in such a meaningful way we appreciate it. I am on the bill, i am a strong supporter of it. I send a thank you for working across the aisle so we could actually get it done this paper to thank you. Senator cruz . Lets think it made and shown to thank each of the witnesses for your testimony. It has been a powerful, miss allison in particular to think thinkyou your courage coming in speaking out. I am sorry about the loss of your mom. That is very difficult. You are sharing the story of Young Children and what theyre going through is really powerful and moving. So thank you for giving voice to their fears, their concerns for thank you for also giving voice. Their other moms from East Palestine who are here with you and standing with you and thank you for speaking for them as well print i wanted to ask you we are still relatively early in the aftermath of the derailment. That at least two dates, are you satisfied with the response you have seen, number one from the federal government . And number two from Norfolk Southern . Do you feel the families have been impacted by this i have received what you need . Have receive the compensation you deserve a question if you are not satisfied what more do you think is needed . Ex i would sit is always room for improvement and this is something at least in our community we never expected to happen here. I would say there has been some response but specifically in regards to Norfolk Southern i think there are a lot of opportunity for improvement. I was reading lesson in my hotel room with tears streaming down my face its absolutely heartbreaking. Im a market researcher by trade. They feel like Norfolk Southern is offering breadcrumbs throughout the community for funding. So right now for people who do not feel safe at home we did receive a flyer that said you could leave the community for the time being if you want to re evacuate and some people chosen to do that. However there is not clear guidelines of what will be paid for and what is not. So when people go to the Assistance Center some people are having a good experience from some people are really being questioned about why do you feel like you should leave . Why do you feel you need this money from us and feeling interrogated. Until that is really concerning. I think a lot more data needs to come out. That testing the epa said their testing et cetera. Thats really good about their so much to say needs to come out. And a couple of things you can make the data look however you want. And also, you can test or not test for whatever you want to from a Community Perspective we want to make sure everything is being tested that should be tested everyone loves living in it East Palestine and we were to say the but only if its safe theres a lot of confusion in the Community Whether a longterm if it is a good choice to stay or not. I am certain you mentioned 50 statements you have come im searching the chair would like to have you submit those statements for the record, for the committee and members on the both side of the eye would like to see those statements. One of things you testified about is you drop in home values. And i can understand that being a very real concern. Youve done market researcher are there any data that are quantifying with the lawton home values have been . And if this is so are the residents being offered any compensation . Is nor folk southern willing to make them hold for a lawton home values of a resin or family decides they were to move, our families able to sell their homes . Are there any buyers . Wonder then you said powerfully even if you want to leave we cant leave. As her any relief being offered now to say if you make the decision to move your home unto bigger family somewhere else there is an avenue for you to sell your home and get a fair market price for it . The short answer is as uptodate no. There is not clearcut explanation of parameters of how you do that. We have heard time and time again from Norfolk Southern theyre going to make it right and looking into longterm healthcare monitoring and assistance in home value protection for details of that plan have not been disclosed to residents as of today. I would encourage free to let this committee know as it goes forward at their residence looking to move and cannot sell their homes this committee is very interested in making sure the community of East Palestine is treated fairly and what youre going through, you receive what is just. I would invite you to provide this committee with specifics so we can expedite making it right. Thank you we are going to it to the second panel. Just briefly. This is really very moving. Listening to you, small communities have something thats very, very special. It is trust but you trust one another per theres been a breach of trust here. One of the biggest beneficiaries of trust in a Community Like yours, and we have many like yours in vermont. One of the biggest beneficiaries is Norfolk Southern they can roll two 3mile train through that without anybody jumping to ask a question because you trust them to do the right thing and they did not do the right thing. They have the opportunity to do the right thing. But they made other priorities stock buybacks in the billions. Shortening cruise, and doing the things a mom would never do to take a shortcut to provide that security at the heart of the discussion here is whether as the breach of trust by a very large and very powerful, very wealthy corporation newark government should step in to restore justice to you and your fellow citizens. That is what this hearing is about. Will government step up provide physical, emotional and Health Security as a result of this . Just as if it were a military threat to our country. Government has got to spend the side of folks like you and your neighbors. I am very grateful to you. I feel very badly for the breach of trust. That trust gets you through hard times. You dont even complain because you know your neighbors got your back you have to know the government has your back. We admire you for this is going to go on for some time as governor dewine said. But all of this in this legislation will do our level best to respond to you and your neighbors and what youre going through, thank you. Thank you, senator welch and again thank you to our colleagues, to governor dewine, ms. Allison, thank you for a very compelling testament will number to the second panel we are going to hear from jennifer the chair of the National Transportation safety board. Well hear from David Comstock fire chief of ohios western reserve fire Districts Department responded to the East Palestine derailment. Will hear from mr. Clyde whitaker the director of ohio state smart tv was a long term a real rotor. Mr. Allen shaw ceo Norfolk Southern lastly will hear from ian jeffries ceo of the association of american railroads who represents the railroad sector. If all of those witnesses would come forward will start in a minute. [background noises] welcome to all of the witnesses. We appreciate you being here. We look forward to hearing your testimony. We will start with you, thank you so much for being here. We appreciate all of the work the ntsb does. I expressed to you earlier in private your leadership and the investigation of the seaplane accident in the Pacific Northwest and we continue to look forward to your comments on aviation in general. We appreciated your comments prior to the aviation summit last week about the fact the faa needs to implement its open action item that will help us on near miss incidents at airports. Thank you for your continued voice. I think when we envision the safety legislation that we passed we wanted to note trends we went to the faa to respond faster to trends so thank you for helping to identify these trends in aviation and some of the issues. So that we will turn to you for this hearing on real safety. Thank you so much and good morning. I would like to begin with addressing the people who were impacted by the derailment in East Palestine. On behalf of the ntsb we are so sorry for all that you are going through. Please know that the agency is committed to conducting a thorough independent and transparent investigation of this derailment. We will issue safety recommendations to prevent similar tragedies from reoccurring including urgent safety recommendations we can do it any point if our investigation warrants it. The next few months will hold an investigative hearing in East Palestine or we will include time for Committee Members to provide comments and ask us questions about the investigation. My written testimony goes into more detail on the derailment. By now the preliminary facts have been well covered. The bottom line is this, there are no accidents. This derailment as all accidents we investigate was one 100 preventable. As is the case with all of our investigations we are looking into every factor that could have led to this tragedy. We arent looking into that wheel bearing, the wheels set the axle and the railcar including manufacture, maintenance and expection. The hot bearing detectors Norfolk Southern temperature thresholds for alerting train crews of safety concerns of their use of realtime monitoring and data treading. The companys policies practices and overall Safety Culture. We are also looking into the design, maintenance and performance of the tank cars used to transport has met including the pressure release devices on the five vinyl flooring 10 cars. Emergency response preparedness and communication. The decisionmaking process that led to the event and a burnt u. S. Department of transportation oversight of rail and has met safety, and so much more. I know there are a lot of questions about our investigation i will provide what i can today pretty also know congress is eager to improve rail safety more broadly. So i offering the following five issues for your consideration but first the definition of high hazard flammable train should be expanded to a broader array of hazmat. The definition threshold of 20 loaded tank cars and a continuous blocker 35 tankers dispersed throughout a train should be eliminated. Second dot 111 should be phased out of all hazmat service. They are not as protected as a dot 117 tank cars. Third, people deserve to know what chemicals are moving through their communities and how to stay safe in an emergency that includes responders the risk of their lives for each of us every single day. They deserve to be prepared. That means access to realtime information, obtaining the right training having the right communications and planning tools. Fourth, voice recorders in aviation audio and video recorders in the locomotive cab are essential for helping investigators determine the cause of an accident make more precise safety recommendations. Recorders also help operatives proactively improve their Safety Policies and practices. And the East Palestine derailment the locomotive was equipped with an inward facing camera. However since the low come meet with put immediately back into service find the accident the data was overwritten. That means the recorder only provided about 15 minutes of data before the derailment in five minutes after. The fast act following the terrible tragedies and chats work and in philadelphia it required amtrak and commuter railroads to maintain crash fire hardened inward and outward facing image recorders in all controlling locomotives that have a minimum of a 12 hour continuous recording capability. This was extremely helpful in her dupont washington investigation. Now is the time to expand that requirement to audio and include the freight railroads in that mandate. In fact, now is the time to address all of the open rail safety recommendations many of which are owner most wanted list. Fifth and finally as the Committee Works on enhancing rail safety i trust you will consider the resources that we desperately need to carry out our critical safety mission. Investments are investments in safety across all modes of transportation. Too that end we look forward to work with the committee on this reauthorization of ntsb hope you will approve the president s budget requests of 145 million. Thank you. Thank you so much. Mr. Comstock, welcome, thank you for being here. Good morning chair cantwell, Ranking Member crews, distinguished members of the committee. My name is David Comstock on the fire chief of the western reserve joint Fire District located in poland, ohio. Most a member of a National Volunteer fire Council Nonprofit Membership Organization that serves as a National Voice of over 670,000 volunteer firefighters comprising 65 of the nations fire service. My department was one of over 50 Fire Departments responded to ad to the East Palestine derailment. As emphasized the need to better train and equip firefighters to respond to Hazardous Material incidents. Specifically to derailments in rural areas which are mostly served by volunteer Fire Departments that often lack sufficient resources, tax base and manpower. The National Fire Protection Association defines an operational level of confidence for hazmat response is what is needed for a fire party to implement or support actions to protect the public from the effects of hazmat release. Alarmingly Needs Assessment of u. S. Fire Service Showed only 55 of firefighters are certified in a hazmat operational levels competence. For many Fire Fighters hazmat training is difficult to assess especially for volunteers and the need to take time off from their paying jobs. Progress has been made to make Hazardous Material training more available to the pipeline and hazardous Safety Administration, Hazardous Material grants. Specifically firefighters are trained through Hazardous Materials Emergency Preparedness the assistance for local Emergency Response training, Hazardous Material instructor training, committee safety, supplemental Public Safety Training Grant programs. Through sps to grants, the envy fc is offering 15 emperors and hazmat training to trainer opportunities across the u. S. At no cost to departments. It is important they can provide this program at no cost to volunteer departments would often lack a tax base to support training. Thanks to the grants i mentioned earlier other First Responder organizations have been able to train tens of thousands of firefighters. They asked Congress Passed legislation to increase funding to these Hazardous Material trading grants. They are pleased to see s576 Railway Safety act of 2023 includes language that increases support to the alert and supplemental Training Grant programs. Federal Emergency Management Agency Assistance to firefighter grants and staffing for adequate fire and Emergency Response grants is also critical to Fire Departments. The goal of these grants is to bring all fired up arbors up to a baseline level of readiness. Many departments struggle to achieve this baseline. An alarming examples data showing 53 of Fire Departments cannot equip every firefighter was selfcontained breathing apparatus. Stakeholders in the community to prepare and to prevent for these hazardous chemicals. The ntsb further encourages congress to provide Additional Support to the local delivery of additional training courses which provide a comprehensive National Approach to incident management. They also request that we, congress, National Transportation safety board and federal Administration Work together to enhance the methods for emergency hazmat product identification. Firefighters face a higher risk of developing cancer compared to the general public and supports several initiatives to combat firefighting related cancer exposure most notably the International Association of chiefs volunteer combination officers section produced a written report the best practice against toxic exposure to prevent firefighter cancer. On behalf of the nations volunteer firefighters, i think you for the opportunity to address the Committee Regarding the Hazardous Material response to the volunteer First Responders. We look forward to continuing to work with of the committee and stakeholders assembled here today to approve the response of the incidents and to ensure they are properly trained and equipped. Thank you. [applause] thank you very much for being here and we are so sorry you had to deal with this, but your experience is very helpful and the resources that youre asking for. Welcome. I look forward to your testimony. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. The state legislative board of directors for Smart Transportation that represents approximately 30,000 workers and conductors recommended engineers and training persons. One of my primary roles is to protect and produce and ensure the safety of the members. I would like to begin by saying the citizens of East Palestine. It was very predictable and the warnings and cries for help over the last seven years have fallen on deaf ears into the outcome was exactly as we feared. Now the result doesnt feel safe in their own homes, businesses failing to survive and railroad and prioritize before the people and the community. The unsafe practices and environments and for almost every single one fought every step of the way. The truth is ask any Railroad Worker and they will tell you the carriers are masters of checking the boxes saying the right thing without ever doing anything meaningful towards improving safety. The only focus is on the operating ratios and bottom lines which is evidenced by the fact that the bonus structures are set up to reward timely movements rather than reaching destinations safely as they once were. Actions do speak louder than words and i assure you that what you have heard and will hear from the railroads today are nothing more than words. Their actions or words experienced by men and women i represent as well as with the people of East Palestine have been through. I filed a complaint. These types of issues are not just litigated to the wayside detectors and a virus that plagued the industry for some time with inception of the schedule railroading. Its being diverted to expedite and no longer is identifying the defects and unsafe conditions with the goal of inspections but rather minimize the time it takes to perform them where the elimination of them altogether. Compound this with the fact the railroads on the determined course. We want you to believe that technology is capable of replacing the role of conductor. What they want to tell you his s technology was present and when the train finally came to a stop this day this job was done all of which technologies sat dormant. We cant afford to be dormant. The degradation of safety is very real. The frequency is up and from the railroad perspective the potential for another disaster is as high as its ever been. We cannot allow the railroads to continue to dodge and sharp sharpshooter regulations or to be the sole owners and creators of the data and safety statistics and we cannot allow them to prioritize the revenue over profit. Oversight is desperately needed to be for the next big one happens. Thank you for allowing me to testify here today and i look forward to any questions you may have. Good morning chairwoman cantwell i appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today. My name is alan shaw, president and ceo since may 2022 ive been to East Palestine in the communities many times over the past six weeks. Ive spoken with of the Community Leaders, business owners, school officials, clergy, families and others. Theyve shared their stories and their concerns about the health of their families, their businesses into the future of the community they love. I am determined to make this right. Laura folk southern to save with urgency. My personal commitment we will get the job done and we will help these communities thrive. Monitoring has been in place continuously since the accident and today it it is consistently indicated air safe debris and the water is safe to drink. We have already invested more than 24 million in used palestinian and the surrounding communities. They opened the family assistance the day after the incident and threw it we have providedmore than 10,000,000. 60 families to support the immediate needs in the area. Weve also dedicated over 9 million in funds to reimburse and support the Emergency Responders and health and environmental agencies and cost related to the derailment. And as i said before, this is just the start. We know people are concerned about the longterm Health Impact is in the derailment. What i feared for the Senate Committee on environment and public works earlier this month, some members of that committee asked me to be more specific about the commitment to do the right thing. Today i am able to share more about the plans. We are in the planning stages of developing longterm medical compensation for the Property Value Assurance Program and longerterm Water Testing program. If residents have a concern we want them to come talk to us. With details on how to reach us. In the investigation into the derailment, and i pledge to continue to cooperate fully. At the ntsb preliminary report found the crew would operate below the speed limit and in an approved manner yet it is clear from this incident we can always improve. So as they continue its work, we are not waiting to act to make the railroad safer. Shortly after, i instructed my team to look at steps we could take to improve safety beginning immediately. Weve announced a number of initiatives that do just that. Of the steps are a start and we look forward to working with policymakers and others in the industry. We support legislative efforts to enhance the safety of the freight Rail Industry and in the safety act both include measures with the potential of meaningful improvement such as funding additional training, better advanced notifications, accelerating the phaseout of the over tank cars and much more. We strive to make the Safety Culture the best in the industry. When i began my ceo tenure ten months ago i spent hours all over the state Network Thinking and asking for their advice. They are proud of the work they do for this country and we take their safety and the safety of the communities we serve seriously. Today i am proud to represent more than 19,700 employees who work every day to offer a safe and effective means of transporting goods to businesses and families across the great country. We will continue to invest in the future of ohio and pennsylvania and although states all the statesin which we operae have always done. We are here for the long haul and we wont be finished until we make this right. Thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you today. I look forward to your questions. We will now turn to mr. Jeffries. Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to be here today. Let me start by extending my sympathy to the surrounding areas. The derailment is a stark reminder that as rare is one is, a significant incidence impact on the affected community can be extraordinary and while nothing i say here today can undo the impact of any incident, it is important that we have a discussion about the state of safety and steps that have been taken or could be taken. While the meticulous investigation is ongoing, those parties will continue to address the matters related to that incident and today i will provide a broad perspective. Let me be clear, railroads work every day to improve safety towards the ultimate goal of zero incidents and injuries. This starts with our employees whose commitment to moving 24 7 and doing it safely should be commended. Post pandemic hiring efforts continue with the Employee Base the highest its been in over three years and because the wellmaintained railroad is a safe railroad, the over 20 billion in annual investments back into the physical network have resulted in the highest rated infrastructure by the American Society of civil engineers. The result, it is by far the safest way to move goods on land especially Hazardous Material. The hazmat rate is down 78 since 2000 and saw the lowest rate of incidents in the entire industrys history. Additionally, fra data shows the mainline accident rate in 2022 was at an alltime low as well as the employee injury rate but that does little to comfort the community that experiences a significant derailment and we must continue to apply Lessons Learned and take steps to drive it even lower. Every trip provides learning tools for the future and to that and they consistently invest in technologies and take actions without waiting for government requirements. Consider the recent actions first following in industry and analysis railroads are installing approximately 1,000 additional wayside detectors on the network and standardizing Critical Alert thresholds and analyzing the new standards for trending analysis protocols to preempt potential problems. The network of these and other detection systems exist today because the railroads are voluntarily not because of the government intervention. Two weeks ago upon learning is segment of the new cars would be prone to the loose wheel sets they took immediate action to take them until they are replaced. The tools and methods are used every day to prevent incidents. The train control is fully implemented in helping prevent catastrophic accidents and automated track inspection that sees them to the drug as well as machine visioning and sensors all improved safety yet prevention is one part of the safety stool along with mitigation response. On the former the industry has a welldocumented history of petitioning for stronger standards. We are also committed to working with our partners and congress to get them off the network. On response first let me recognize every First Responder who tended to the accident in East Palestine. These individuals like all firefighters who responded to the incidents should be commended for their service. To do their jobs though they need proper training and tools and thus the industry is reinforcing its Training Programs and expanding access to information. This year the railroads will train 20,001st responders and communities across the country. While the industry can provide another 2,001st responders with three indepth Training Facilities in colorado, this week we launched the Pilot Program directly targeting Emergency Communication Centers to promote broad access that provides First Responders realtime information about the content of every car and train in the safe handling of those contents and the event of an accident. Congress can support by helping increase awareness and we ask for your help in getting the word out. In closing, railroads are committed to safety advancement through our own actions and working collaboratively. We supported datadriven policies with demonstrable safety benefits including the goals of legislative provisions before the committee and look forward to working together. Thank you for your time and i look forward to your questions. Thank you. Thank you for your interest in all this. Up 17 in the last decades 29 of those derailments were in my state, and in 2022, 817 people plus 266 and the Railroad Crossing collisions. There is reason to go forward immediately with senator brown and the legislation to help in ohio. Between 2013 and 2022 and can you briefly explain why and if you support the legislation that the colleagues have proposed . Yes. Thank you for that question. The number of derailments last year was the lowest in the last two decades. We are committed to Getting Better and so yes there are many provisions within the bill for which we give our endorsement. Do you support the bill . I support a number of provisions within the bill which include we support the acceleration of the phase funding First Responder hazmat training expanded advanced notification. I will put it in writing i was trying to figure out which one to support and its very important to move ahead. They signaled interest in working with all stakeholders to try to get this done. Chief comstock, thank you for your work. We are greatly appreciative of the First Responders, firefighters across the country, senator kramer and i the Fallen Heroes act to start looking to make sure the firefighters were registered going on as you know and the certain cancers we think we are going to get a lot of support for this bill specifically targeted and written in a way that we think is going to be good. If so, could you talk about some Key Information you wish you had before arriving at the scene of the derailment. When the responders are proceeding to any emergency we want to have as much information as we can. The more information and the quicker we get information the better. There are apps out there to provide the kind of information, i think we can go further by looking at a Newer Technology that will put that information that is available on my phone while im in route. But i understand theres a lot of other issues that needed to be looked at. And also what toxic chemicals there are. Everything. The more the better. The fire source needs a seat at the table for developing the technology thats going to help us out. Thank you. A Railway Safety. Another part of this of course mr. Jeffries with the workers being exposed to a range of risks. Theyve made a very concerted effort to get out in the field and a lot of that is hearing firsthand whats working and whats not because they are the ones who are seeing whats going on everyday so that firsthand information that leads up through management and the executives can drive decisionmaking. The important thing is that we do take a realistic approach to safety and the evidence weve seen as i mentioned the 2022 have the lowest rate in our history. But that isnt zero so weve got to continue to look for opportunities to further provide a safe working conditions. Do you want to add anything to that . We do have worker safety on the listed improvements and one of the come actually we have several recommendations that do not support the use of the trained approach warning. Morning. What that is is when the workers are working on the track, they put a watchman out and as the train comes along the watchman is supposed to flag. For those working on the track and they get off the track. Weve seen in several instances where that hasnt happened and theyve died unfortunately. There are other options for example using train control after establishing an established work sonja so we have recommendations will not. Im going to follow up in writing. We have questions on the hazmat training. Mr. Comstock because i understand it is difficult sometimes for firefighters to attend this kind of training and we will begin to have many other questions, so thank you very much all of you. Senator cruz. Thank you madam chair and to each of the witnesses who are here today. Chief comstock, thank you for your service and please express my gratitude to the men and women who were First Responders who were there when this tragedy occurred. Thank you for the courage each of them makes. Let me thank you also for the professional way in which the ntsb has approached this accident. I think you have been a truth teller. I think youve managed to avoid politics and focus on the substance of what caused this accident and how we can prevent it. Its not that often that we get to thank a public official for doing a good and effective job and provide also some helpful suggestions in your testimony that im certain the committee will look closely at specific suggestions you put forward. As i look at what caused this derailment, theres a number of factors, but one factor from the early reports that stands out is the hotbox detectors. We know the train derailed and 30 miles away, the reading was 38 degrees above the temperature. Then 20 miles away it had risen to 103 degrees above the temperature so it had risen dramatically. Then prior it was 253 degrees above the temperature reflecting that it had locked and the derailment was eminent. Why did this trend and temperature not trigger an alert earlier to stop the tree in and in particular, why were you not able to stop the train after the second rating had gone from 38 degrees to 103 degrees above ambient temperature . I would know to they indicated the crew did nothing wrong and we certainly thank them for that. They were working as designed and there were no defects. Since the derailment and the results of the report, we lead the industry and implementation across the network were adding 200 hotbox detectors on the network to reduce the spacing. They are already among the lowest in the industry. I think we indicated the entire industry was outing about a thousand hotbox detectors. Perhaps you didnt hear my questions let me ask it again. First measured 38 degrees as i understand it was about 20 degrees so that was roughly 58 degrees . 10 miles later the second measured 100 above ambient temperature, thats an increase of over 60 degrees and 10 miles. Why did more focus southern not stop the train then and examine the bearing to make sure that it didnt melt and would have prevented the derailment so why did the second reading not trigger . My understanding is the second one was still below the threshold which is among the lowest in the industry, and in response to this, the industry has agreed to Work Together to share best practices with respect to the detectors and thresholds. 103 it was not 200 degrees. As you and i discussed, weve spoken with your competitors and other Class One Railroads that indicated the algorithms can measure significant changes in temperature and in particular can flag let me ask how other railroads handle it. That is a spot on question and one of the three things we are focused on so one is the fiscal deployment of 1,000 additional detectors and creating the Industry Standard of 100 creating the Industry Standard of 170 degrees as a critical threshold and third is looking at industry best practices to examine and clinically adopt new algorithms for trending protection so if there is a dramatic slicing after even though it may be below the absolute threshold, it caught so we bought the entire industry together and over the next month we will record what we want from each other, best practices we canha adopt the other based on e information we have in the analytics we can put in place. If i could ask one final question. Oh, mr. Whitaker. I didnt see that. Thank you for acknowledging. Id like to make note technology from clean into gavin locomotive when we passed the detector, it goes to the office, it doesnt convey to Railroad Crews who just a problem that still continues to this day. What we need is a trained crew which they say they listen, they havent been listening for quite a while, we need to be notified when these trending detectors thisin and we need to keep a better eye on it. Inspect the railcar and even after, its all about moving the train. Fullservice application then release and hopefully it releases whatever the case may be. The safest case should be we stop and get back and thats what the conductor is therefore. Thats why in person crew is essential. So thats very helpful. So you say if im here youre right to head realtime and what the sensors are showing for the conductor, the engineer, would be helpful. Mr. Jefferies, either technological barriers . Other impediments to giving the crew real time reporting of whats happening . So i cant get into the technicalities of that but i will say one thing were focused on with any sort of regulatory requirement on wayside detectors themselves as a we do need a given the opportunity to evolve our technology, because continues onboard detection is the next phase of sensors and detection. And so certain that something were interested in an interest in for the deploying. In further developing. As were drafting this legislation i would ask you to please its our technological issues we should know about, please let us know because i had to say what mr. Whitaker said there makes a lot of sense to me, and if, if theres a reason its not yet feasible we need to know about ito because that sees to be a reasonable for legislation. Mr. Whitaker, yes my time is megone but go ahead. I apologize. I do think its very important to shed some light on this. It is feasible, the technology is there. We almost had a similar incident in cleveland area on Norfolk Southern. The crew, that detect defector said no defects to the crew. The train dispatcher came on a set hey, we have a report of a training defect that is occurring on the train. Do to stop and inspect it. Immediately after that, the chief dispatcher, which is a person that controls the whole railroad, told them to keep going. If it were not for eastbound train passing them and instructing them hey, your train is on fire, stop your train, and we said a consent that car up, they had the walking speed of the scar five miles. So technology is there. They are just raising and lowering their thresholds to move freight. Thank you. Thank you. Senator markey. Thank you, madam chair. Its clear the industry has been raking in profits and putting safety on the sidelines. Do you agree that used palestinian derailment would have been far worse if it wasnt multiple crew members on board . I do, sir. I think if they had it their way and they reduced to the ground base meaning a person had a pickup Truck Driving to the site that puts the engineer in danger and also the response times in the assessment of the issue. So its only one crew member we will commit to seeing research and technology to assure the railroad operates safely. Will you commit to a twoperson crew . We are a data driven organization, and im not aware of any do you agree would have been far worse, the testimony is loud and clear do you disagree with him . I believe we have operation infrastructure on the ground to respond to derailment. I think you are not answering the question. Its almost like a last hearing all over again because the evidence is very clear that the trains can be absolutely safe. I wish that you would commit to that today because it is pretty obvious that is the correct answer and i just get sick of industry executives. Let me move back over to you. They are the direct result of business decisions. Do you agree and including more focus southern has a Business Model that prioritizes profit over safety. Thank you for the question. The Business Model as per precision. The safety issues are not just a threat to communities they are a threat to the workers and that used palestinian disaster to provide proper equipment to the workers who cleaned up the derailment site. Do you agree they should have the ability to collectively stop work when conditions threaten their health and safety consistent with a federal Railroad Safety act . To stop any and all work whenever there safety is in danger except as it stands right now we will be retaliated against. And why would you be retaliated against . Because we dont have protections on that level senator, i absolutely would expect to operate in a safe manner if they are concerned about the safety of their operations then i would expect them to address that. They must be ready to stand in solidarity i urge my colleagues to join with me. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, senator appreciate your time. The train accidents in general its trending upwards. Is that true . The rate is going up. The mainline track rates are going down. Due to the derailment, has this happened due to one of these derailments . Do you remember the recommendations at the time for the notification of First Responders . Yes sir. We have several recommendations including providing the realtime information to Emergency Responders and they were part of Emergency Planning with of the railroads. How long ago did you make that recommendation . 2013 was the accident. That is one of the reasons by the way, i know that you have some disagreements about the precise distances necessary for the detectors and so forth but could you commit to supporting the standard for the hot bearing detectors even if not specific limits, could you submit to get the limits right in your view . Yes, senator. I appreciate your leadership and senator browns leadership for the Railway Safety act. Theres a number of provisions in your bill which we support and it does include the wayside protectors. We are not sure what the correct spacing is. It could be ten, 15 or seven. I would support using science and research and whatever is the right number we would not matter. Would you commit to supporting the notification requirements as we do in the bill . For the community to rush to the scene and my appreciation for that is we launched the facility in ohio this week and we have over 401st responders signed up for it including the chief and four of his commanders. The industry claims the visual inspections are useless when it comes to the journal bearings. Do you believe that this is true . Thank you for the question. I believe the visual inspection is one of the most important aspects of inspecting a railcar and also smile as well. That is correct. Can you inspect adequately in 30 seconds, any of your workers . Absolutely not. I would say it would take three minutes or longer. To go to mr. Jeffries in the minute that i have remaining in regards to the opposition to the tougher inspections, increased time doesnt necessarily correlate to increase safety and i think that is a fair argument to make. Mr. Whitaker said three minutes. I dont think we should be mandating 20 minute inspections. Businesses can comply. Would you support a 32nd minimum and inspection time . I cant tell you what the right time is. I can make sure we are addressing issues and if there is a systemic or series of cases where malfunctioning equipment isnt, we need to address that and whether thats because theres not enough time allowed because there is not appropriate training because of another factor we need to address that. Do you think we heard from mr. Whitaker it is enough time to inspect a railway or car, do you think 30 seconds is enough to do an inspection and would you support that as a mandatory requirement . Not to be in the technical expert it doesnt seem like a long time to do. I appreciate that. I am out of time, and i guess acting chairman welch, i yield. Thank you, senator vance. I think im next here. Testified that this was a preventable action. Do you agree . Yes, thank you for the question, senator. This industry what should have been done to prevent it . We have to look at every accident as if it were preventable, and in this case we know that the crew did everything they were supposed to do and we thank them for that. We know the wayside detectors were operating as designed, and we know that there were no track defects. We know that the chair was focused on a wheel bearing on a privately owned car that no railroad owns and so improvements in safety are going to require an industrywide approach which includes car owners, car builders and many of those components are included in the bill. Im just thinking about how they would figure out what you just said. Im asking you, you are in charge of the tree and am i right or wrong . Yes sir. Then you said a privately built car somehow that exempted you from the responsibility from the inspection, the assurance of the community. You are not saying that are you . Sir, that was not my intent. My intent was a holistic approach its your car, you are responsible when the train starts and when the train comes into the terminal, correct . We cant point fingers at other people. Its your responsibility to be the sugar to the community that a train will pass through its community safely. Is that correct . Yes, sir, that is my responsibility. You said it was preventable. Whose responsibility was it to prevent it . In response to this derailment, they added wayside detectors in and around lets just get real here. Whose responsibility is it to prevent this preventable accident from happening . Senator, we are responsible for safety on our network and working with the entire industry to enhance safety. Let me understand this. You reluctantly acknowledged that it is preventable and that it was your responsibility to prevent it. Am i incorrect . I am taking responsibility to enhance safety throughout the entire industry. It sounds like an obvious response. Im taking responsibility. Its like before executives come in here and if they go to charm school and they are told to take responsibility without taking responsibility. Are you saying that it was the responsibility of Norfolk Southern, the company you lead, to prevent, to have prevented this accident you acknowledge was preventable . Senator, i think about safety each and every day and ive asked my team what we can do i understand the Business Plan includes 7. 5 billion stock buyback thats ongoing. Do you believe it would be appropriate to suspend the Buyback Program until all the assurances you are making to the committee and also the people of east palestinian about making this right that the Buyback Program should be suspended until youve accomplished what youve assured us and what youve been assured the people of East Palestine that you would do . Senator, we think about safety every day. We spend a billion dollars a year on Capital Safety and have ongoing expenses about a billion dollars a year on safety and as a result, over time derailments are down, Hazardous Material releases are down and injuries are down. We can always get better. So about suspending the Buyback Program. Senator, stock buybacks never come at the expense of safety. I take that about you will continue with your plan on the buyback. My time is expired. The chair recognizes senator thune. Thank you mr. Chair. First i want to offer my deepest sympathy to the residents as well as express my gratitude for the First Responders, ntsb investigators and other officials that arrived and remained on scene since the derailment. Railroads remain one of the safest ways to transport all types of freight and including Hazardous Material. However, it serves as a reminder of the importance of the committees vigilance and that agencies and railroads faithfully implement requirements set in place by congress. The strong bipartisan fast act, which was signed into law included inexpensive materials title much of it directly responsive to the tragic derailment with others like it. The title set forth new stringent requirements for the operation of the flammable trains and is scheduled for complete replacement and retrofit of all tank cars carrying the reclaimable liquids both meant to reduce the impact of future derailments. Other safety requirements from the fast act were still pendingg on the regulatory agenda, something the committee needs to work to correct. I hope the discussion today remains focused on solutions directly responsive to what we know about the underlining causes and avoid stock of imposing restricted requirements for the deficiency of the operations without proving datadriven benefits to safety. I want to thank you and your team for the leadership during the response and Ongoing Investigation into this unfortunate accident. In response to the requirement for the improvement act of 2008, the fra finalized the Risk Reduction program rulemaking in 2020 and subsequently approved the plan submitted by all Class One Railroads. Could you describe why a Safety Management system like the Risk Reduction program is so important to managing risk and improving safety . Its critically important, and we recommended in all modes of transportation that the operators are proactively identifying risks and addressing them before tragedies occur. And then as well having adjusted Safety Culture so that employees are emboldened to speak up when safety concerns arise. Could you describe the implementation of the Risk Reduction program by railroads specifically how it complements existing rail safety regulations . Thank you, senator. As i mentioned, they have all of these implies that have been approved by the fra and i think the basis of them is that each railroad because of the unique operating characteristics of the railroad takes a riskbased approach to addressing potential issues on its railroad and allows the opportunity to test out ways to address that and repeat and adjust as time goes by versus a more command and control onesizefitsall, so we are very early in the stage. I think theres an opportunity to create a flexible system that allows for a much more nimble response to risk, but that story is yet to be told. I think there is opportunity there and i look forward to the railroad moving the program forward. Mr. Comstock, section 73 or two of the act required the pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration to finalize a rule requiring railroads apply realtime Emergency Response information to First Responders on trains because conveying Hazardous Materials. Fortunately, the last requirement is languished and issued. In the Infrastructure Investment and jobs act. It seems to me this type of information would have been helpful to First Responders in East Palestine, would you agree . Yes absolutely. And your testimony mentioned ntsb had several recommendations related to Emergency Response notifications. It seems to me the agency has simply failed to prioritize the rule. Have they provided a better answer as to why this has been delayed . I dont have the response on why that was delayed, but im happy to provide it for the record. It would be good if you could. It seems that is one of the issues that has come out of this that would have made mr. Comstocks, and hopefully something that could have been used to avoid and mitigate the damage from this terrible derailment. My time is expired can i add one thing . Just to emphasize with the chief said, operations level training for firefighters, there are Different Levels of training. Firefighters receive awareness level training which is not appropriate for firefighters. At a minimum they should have operation level training which is a standard, so just for consideration. Okay. Thank you. Take that into consideration. Thank you, madam chair. I want to start by thanking all of our panelists for being here today. I chair the surface transportation subcommittee of the committee and i also want to thank senator brown for the leadership working to improve safety on the rail system. My first question though is for you. Thank you for your willingness to testify here today. Your presence before two different committees in congress this month but should certainly underline how seriously this body takes not only this incident but also how important it is for us to enhance the safety all across the industry. Over the past few months, thereve been multiple Class One Railroad derailments in the state leading to cars hanging off of the side of the bridge in the city of detroit, days long passenger delays and mere mass of hazmat incidents. Michiganders are watching what happened east of pakistan and are quietly demanding we do everything in our power to prevent it from happening again. I am committed to do that, and i appreciate that you also stated your commitment to safety in your testimony today and the conversation we had earlier as well. Unfortunately, i received data yesterday that indicates nor folk southern isnt yet leading up to that commitment. A document i received that i have right here before me shows data from their own internal servers of dozens of cars operating on trains, some of which are heading into my state of michigan that have gone over 5,000 miles without a class one brake inspection. Thats thousands of miles above with the federal Administration Regulations require. Moreover, the documents show that over 100 cars have gone over 10,000 miles, and in one case, 90,000 miles without a mechanical inspection. This is the data just from two trains, so i suspect we will have data from others to look at. I would like to know do they have an internal standard as to how many miles before a train needs a full mechanical inspection and how can you account for why the Company Appears to be running trains right now that have not been sufficiently inspected . Senator, thank you for that question. I am not aware of that data. I can assure you the policies are there to promote safety of the train operations and we do not allow the unsafe cars to operate. I would be happy to provide what we have here and appreciate your comments after the hearing. Since i became ceo in the middle of last year we have been on a hiring spree. We hired a near Record Number of employees last year. Our pipeline of trainees is amongst the highest in our history right now. Several weeks ago i reached out to the heads of her largest unions. And ask them for their assistance in helping Norfolk Southern enhanced our Safety Culture. Thank you for your leadership in testimony today but you called out the importance of passing legislation that i have on staffing for adequate fire and Emergency Response will ensure to the major hazmat incident. As you know ive authored that in the legislation will come before the senate as early as next week. Could you discuss how important it is for the legislation to pass and always grants that they were to expire would be detrimental to small committees like yours . Make it nearly responsible to respond to disasters. Quickly fire Service Perspective i cannot think of encrypt more important than those for my own departments important radios, to put a generator in the station that we could with the doors up on that true sicklecell Fire Department critically small ones rely on most rents every year but are critical without prints we could not do our jobs. Thank you madam chair. Think it center peterson. Think your chair thank you for being here today but mr. Shaw thank you for coming to our hearing two weeks ago. I appreciate that and i appreciate everybody being left here today. On the ordering of the cars its 149 railcar rain on the 23rd car was carrying plastic pellets according to the report that lit up like a match and it had the overbearing we document the overheated wheelbarrow bearing for our five cars away at ask if thats correct. And i dont high hazardous flammable train have more safety regulations. Why would this not have been characterized as a high hazard flammable train if it had Hazardous Materials as part of the 149 car train . Quick senator, thank you for your question but i am not familiar with the entire makeup of the train. I know a highly hazardous train is defined by a certain number of highly hazardous cars in a block. Thank you. Maybe you could help with the question. Yes the definition of a high hazard flammable train as last three Flammable Liquids only. And 20 carloads in a continuous and block which would be a unit trainer 35 carloads of class three Flammable Liquids. In a mixed Freight Train. That is not what was on this train. There were some that were Flammable Liquids a class of three defined Flammable Liquids but this train was on a high hazard flammable treatment quick it was on a high hazard growth rate for highly flammable that lit up the sky. Is that something you would consider should be looked at as a Safety Improvement . Yes set it up at the threshold of the 20 and 35 should be eliminated. A broader range of hazmat should be in addition. Quickly asked about the track we had a derailment a couple of years ago where the track as it got cold and then it melted and the track derailed there with Hazardous Material. How are we doing on track safety what kind of improvement might be in the future will look over this bill. Is this something we should look at . I know is that the best materials to use . Tracker defects remain the second biggest cause of train accidents. Human factors is number one. Train defects is number two. Doctor rail defects projects i am chock tracker defects im sorry. Track defects. There is technology but we also think personnel are critical as well and technology should supplement not supplant to break Dexter Jeffries are doing to address a question . Yes on the main lines we did that at the lowest number of incident rate of incidents in 2022 but we are not at zero. It is important the chart Reference Technology that can be deployed autonomous track inspection tools can provide a significantly more intense and sensitive type of inspection that is 360degree around the rail through the rope to identify anomalies before they become risks that can be attached to the back or front of the train for continuous inspection that is not dehumanizing the network that is using technology to supplement in a much more effective way the naked eye inspections that occur today. We believe we should be encouraging, enhancing the Pilot Programs expanding technology to take on it the second leading cause and even louder. Confuses into the testimony. When it showed things are beginning to overheat does that information come directly to the engineer at the time . Through whitaker yes. This particular accident id like to hear thoughts on that part. Thank you for the question. Technically there are two different types of defect detectors. One is a standard that gives audible to the crew over the radio. It will tell you the defect or no defect. Would that be like an automated warning . That is correct it sounds an alarm and repeats varies a dependable road tour three times. The trending defect Detector Technology has likened out onto the style detector. We are not notified of a cart on the train. That goes to like a headquarters building. They monitor that car that is the big issue. They need to come they that to the train corals cruise so we are just going on the track request that would be a huge improvement if the communication may go directly to the engineers. The last question i have, they say it never ask a question you dont want the answer to i know idea what a different braking system on that train have made any difference . Mr. Shaw ill let you into that. Chair was very clear the use of brakes would not have changed the result of this derailment too. s and dont disagree with that of the panel . Chair. Are number 23 if art would have ensued, i know is that vent and burn. The train on the track. Fra is doing modeling on that was probably a couple of cars we have more on that as investigation moves forward. Thank you middledot growth. Think it madam chair rank member crews for holding todays hearing. Illinois sits at the center of our nations rail network. All seven Class One Railroads run through our states including Norfolk Southern is enormous we have 65 miles one house in florida which is shared by passenger trains. We see 1300 trains a day moving to the chicago area to be importants estate would be an understatement. Yet over the past decade there have been at least 272 Hazardous Material incidents involving trains in 70 different illinois communities. Last year what could have happened in East Palestine could have easily happen in illinois. Among the cause of the rail accidents are blocked rail crossings especially among trains carrying Hazardous Materials blocked rail crossings allows unfortunately overturned due to federal preemption u. S. Department of transportation carrying Hazardous Material from blocking crossings the ntsb is not weighed in on the block crossing issue we do not have a recommendation on that. You do not have an opinion on train with Hazardous Material in it i think it could be a safety issue. Certainly for First Responder access to areas and communities. And having high Hazardous Materials could be an issue as well per. Thank you. That of senator durbin and others among the illinois congressional delegation the Surface Transportation Board recently approved a merger of Canadian Pacific and campus city southern. This merger will likely result in more and longer Freight Trains through the chicago area. Particularly the northwest suburb. Without asking you to comment on the recently approved merger, can you explain the safety risk of a rail company injected more and longer Freight Trains, some of which may be carrying Hazardous Material into an already crowded corridor like chicago with the densely populate an area . For the East Palestine train that one was not a particularly along the train in our opinion at the board. The one in springfield was a very long trying to. 55mile train. You have workers who have to baby go back and inspect next stop and inspect and act so if youre walking back to. 5 miles that is a lot on the crew with the equipment and potential safety issues. As well as higher gross tonnage on the train which is a big safety hazard. Thank you. In 2021 the federal Railroad Administration recommended penalties for 7300 safety violations that found after inspecting railroad hazardous shippers and rail car. Of the 3400 12. 3 million. This is an average of 3600 for each assess violation. That same year knorr folk southern income was approximate 3 billion. Do you believe the current level of Civil Penalties is in a deterrent . You think congress should consider raising them . Ntsb does not have a position on Civil Penalties. I will say it most penalties unfortunately are negotiated pretty low. They will be assessed as a civil penalty and then there is a conference portion where they will settle their penalties on a penny for a dollar. You think pennies for a dollar is an effective deterrent for multi billiondollar company like Norfolk Southern . I do not. I yield back madam chair. Insight senator schmidt. Is a town that is outside of is a town that is outside of East Palestine and folks in ohio people across the country probably had not heard of. Before this terrible tragedy. Theres a lot of towns like East Palestine i know here in missouri were i am from garden city richton are real bluecollar neighborhood, these are towns that are not filled with corporate titans or elites. They are working men and women who go to church on sunday. Try to get home for dinner, take the kids to practice and try to play by the rules. All of those matter. East palestine matters. And instead of showing up in towns like this and specifically East Palestine this administration demonstrated they did not matter. Joe biden still has not showed up to East Palestine. He has been to ukraine. Pete buttigieg took three weeks for them to show up. I thank you so much of this in addition to the things that can be improved as a lack of attention that the people of this town for whatever reason to them or not worthy of an appearance of letting them know we are going to support them. And one of the reasons in the toxic Chemical Spill this has become such a big issue it is demonstrative that shows x completely out of touch with what i will refer to its flyover country places like missouri, places like ohio per this should not matter. This accident was foreseeable, avoidable, preventable. And so mr. Shaw went to ask you is it true Norfolk Southern rate has nearly doubled in the last 10 years and at least 20 of those derailment since 2015 have involved chemical releases, is that true . Quick senator, thank you for your question. East palestine does matter. I have been there a number of times. I have visited with the Community Leaders. I have been in the homes of people have invited me too their business. Ive been in the schools. Ive committed the full support of Norfolk Southern projects i hear you ive heard you say that and ive limited time the question is has the accident accident ratedoubled the last d . Quick senator i am not aware of that. Ill be happy to provide you with that info. I know from 2021 2022 many os are improved. We will continue to get better. We are going to learn from this accident and that is my commitment i will lead Norfolk Southern and the industry to Better Safety practices. I would hope so. I think understanding we are happy to educate you on the statistics we have at our ready theres a lot of folks who live close to river tracks. I do and theres a lot of folks when it what exactly is going to be done to make sure this does not happen again in addition to the things that need to happen to address the concerns. I do want to with the remaining time i have chair, as you know in the aftermath of this incident many in the media and in this administration were quick to blame the previous administration, President Trump fort not moving forward or rolling back regulations. However those arguments have been dismissed by including usa today and even the Washington Post noted none of the regulatory changes made during the Trump Administration at this point can be cited as contributing to the incident. Can you clarify to the committee today i know you have made statements about this just to clarify whether the regulatory rollback that took place under the Trump Administration was responsible for this incident . I am not family with all of the regulations and action taken on those regulations from that administration. What i will say with my comments with respect to nomadic breaking, there were a lot of comments how that that wouldve prevented the deer aroma which is not accurate records that is specifically cited by Pete Buttigieg a print which again he is not ready and i have many questions maybes take more personal time. We are a few months into this congress with a lot of serious issues involving the department of transportation including this and he has just refused to appear. I think you are very clear publicly saying that that rule would not have impacted this at all. Have not prevented the derailment. At madam chair i wheel back the rest of my time buddy doing to mention the obvious that the obvious that secretary buttigieg is not here is yet to appear before this committee its incredibly disrespectful not just to this committee but the American People he continues to hide from these disasters that have happened under his watch. Quick senator rosen. Thanks senators are brown in advance for working together in a bipartisan way to ensure that a tragedy like East Palestine derailment never happens again. And also we have to think about preventing future accidents how we can be proactive. In addition to transporting Hazardous Waste we also transport Nuclear Waste by rail. It should be a wakeup call for all americans it is time to address how we transport Hazardous Materials in this country. Burton abandons the transportation to our state by rail some think we have been fighting since the 1980s. For over 30 years weve opposed the Nuclear Waste disposal project in part because it was a transporting 9500 hazardous radioactive wastes and 2800 trains and over 2600 trucks from across the country to nevada. This is a major Transportation Safety crisis waiting to happen. Putting major metropolitan and 44 states there are railways and millions of americans at risk. We already have an agent rail system and Consistent Shipments of heavy casts of Nuclear Waste will cause a wear and tear on the could lead to the disaster we saw in ohio or worse. And so chair, can you talk about some of the dangers of transporting this kind of waste, Nuclear Waste close to our nation even though i along with the delegation are committed to ensuring that never moves forward to become a reality i still want to ask you if you are prepared to address Nuclear Waste spills, it can happen as a result of shipping waste on aging or rail lines through American Cities to places like this. I will say i do believe there are some more protective measures for moving nuclear fuels. However there is not positive train control. I will also mention it would be disastrous to something did occur. On our resources they are pretty strained and tst has 12 real investigators and we have four pipeline and Hazardous Materials safety investigators. We need to increase our investigator levels that requires Additional Resources which we have asked congress and the president s budget would accomplish our request of 145 million for 2024. When it comes to safety we should be investing in them. I want to carry us a low bit further. You show the positive rail control systems are not in nevada we hope that would tell so that will be beneficial. And you also tell us are the trains carrying Nuclear Waste to they have a wheels bearing a check regularly at what kind of regular checks are you doing to be proactive as we may be transporting some additional Hazardous Waste across the country . It will be checked regularly but i would have to defer to mrt requirements for the string inspections. The federal government has established strict standards for transport of nuclear fuel and has determined the railroads are the safest mechanism for doing so. I know my team would be happy to sit down to you and your team to talk about the specifics of the requirements there. But that is something we would take with the utmost seriousness the responsibility the government has delegated to our industry to move those cars with the highest level of safety. Thank you i look forward to talking about that. I want to be sure we are being stringent enough. Another topic very important to nevadas were reliable freight rail because nevada is the nation later in tourism and Hospitality Service that is a sector that relies heavily on freight rail to bring in goods from outofstate partners to support our industry. The interstate 15 corridor which runs from california to nevada is crowded it makes it difficult for trucks to move efficiently makes reliable Freight Rail Service along the corner all that more important. So mr. Jeffries how do you think congress can support a more reliable Freight System that moves quickly but still promote safety as its core priority . Thank you for that. We are a Service Provider at the end of the day we are not providing good service were not doing our jobs in the pandemic on the supply chain challenges illustrated make significant progress on the service front. As they mention significant hiring efforts we are at the highest level that we have done in three years its about taking things to the next step. We have seen folks want to know exactly where things are exactly when theyre going to get there exactly when the properties owned on the peets of the order when thats going to be delivered. Where was he to work to provide increase visibility to where the shipments are to their customers, increase predictability and those efforts are underway if there is some exciting things on the horizon. Thank you. I think you i yield back now chair. Thank you, sandra fisher. Think you meant in german. The East Palestine Train Derailment has increased her orpublic awareness of rail safey concerns. Especially for trains that are moving through very rural small communities like those in my home state of nebraska. This Committee Takes rail safety very seriously. Modern technologies can enhance Railroad Safety, especially and how rail cars and tracks are inspected. Mr. Jefferies, can you explain how ain twopronged Inspection System using visual and automated trackck inspections cn approve rail safety . Thank you for that and t thak you for your efforts on real safety. I i think exact right a twopronged approach to inspections is appropriate path forward. As we discussed autonomous track inspection tools allow for not only continuous inspection of track as the train goes over but at a much higher level sincerely much our level of effectiveness has been found to be 90 more effective in identifying flaws in the track before the become serious risks. And several Pilot Programs have been in place with some of our railroads at the fra. Unfortunately literally had to sue the fra to expand those Pilot Programs and recently won in court a the ability to do tht and its a shame it took the level for improvement technology but it is a twopronged approach. Agi doesnt catch everything a dozen to every job that human perspective does. We actuallytr still need the hun inspection capabilities and hopefully our inspectors are also spending more timeng addressing found anomalies and using walking the tracks. And again theres a place for both. At here. What is impeding the use of the Automated Technologies throughout the whole rail network . Rates. We are going to take things stepbystep as we deploy this technology for one. But we need a Regulatory Environment we need a regular that promotes innovation promotes technology. Pilot programs identifying new ways of doing promotes Pilot Programs come can identify new ways of doing things so you dont have to go to court. And lets had the opportunity to experiment with things. Subject villages may not work out. Others may prove to automatic safety benefits. Lets build the data sets than we could objectively analyze in partnership with the regulator to advance safety. Thank you. Mr. Shaw, as you are where current law dictates obligations that railroads must abide by, specifically railroads must transport any freight and reasonable terms, including Hazardous Materials. Mr. Shaw, and you explain how the commentary orn obligation impacts the way that you railroad transpor Hazardous Material incarnation with shippers . Yes, thank you for the question senator. Rail remains one of the safest forms of handling Hazardous Materials. We do have a common carrier obligation to handle product. We workoro very closely with our customers come with our fellow railroaders, and with elected officials, and with the regulatory body to handlee that in the safest manner possible. I will note that in 2022 derailments with ahe fuse they been in the last two decades. What obligation to shippers have, if any, on maintaining their railcars that transport these Hazardous Materials . Senator, as you know there many components that we fully support. And the Rail Industry has been advocating and pushing for stronger tank car standards for about the last eight years is my understanding. And that is included in the bill. Thank you very much. I just had a couple short questions here, mr. Jefferies, for you. Iwhen i talk to my constituents in nebraska one of the items i i hear about frequently is communityy notification. Folks just want to know what dangers of things could possibly be moving through their towns and cities while still maintaining the security thats needed that that information is controlled in a way. Because we all know that theres a lot of people out there that would like to cause mischief, that would be disastrous. Right. And the fast act which i hope to offer it added notice requirements that we didnt get away that provided First Responders information they needed, again, ensuring that local actors wouldnt have access to that. Those rule makings havent been completed is my understanding. Do freight railroads agreed that appropriate community notificationri is necessary . And what part to the plate in ensuring thatha communities to have that information . Its absolutely necessary and 100 agree with that assessment. And youre right, the rule is supposed be done i think a year after the fast act and so its seven years overdue. We didnt wait around. We develop our own mechanism to get information into First Responders hands. But we want, we need help building awareness. We just sent letters out to every Firefighter Association in each state time to build awareness if wery are shifting towards, versus a responder by responder signup process to Emergency Communication Center modelcy because to the point earlier if youre in rural areas you dont necessarily have cell service but theres ace private you always have radio service, to my knowledge, with the Emergency Communication Centers. T from there but we have got more work to do. And i look forward to work with congress for further ways to get that information into those hands are needed. Thank you, thank you madam chair. Senator lujan. Thank you chair cantwell and thank you for this important hearing. I want to begin by recognizing senator brown and senator vance for coming together and responding so quickly we appreciate their staff and the work they are doing but i also want to thank ms. Allison for being part of that panel today. I think all too often the impact to a family or to a person are left out. And i just want to say thank you for helping the country, those of us here in the Senate Better understand what the family has gone through. And it just reminds me it should not take a tragedy like this for there to be action. I appreciate i appreciate everyone coming together, its the right thing to do. Why didnt we do it before . Theres incidents all across the country where there are fewer elements in conversation about reduction in less people looking atwe something. Its awkward to be identified until after. We all know the challenges and one of my frustrations, hugo through efforts and fight for rules and we recognize each other and it goes to be implemented at all the folks who did want the legislation getet another crack at this and they messs it up as much of filings. But then theres interviews that come after it said no we wanted all the stuff done i certainly hope theres a lesson here. And on this with all the filings every word is washed every statement is watch loopholes are not being advocated for by the groups that have been hired to represent companies and represent interest only to allow for Something Like this to happen again. I hope we are mindful to that. Now a week ago a train derailed in the Small Community in arizona. And mohave. Just hours before as you can imagine that small town after small town it was in new mexico. My question here is run First Responders as well. Because when this happened in the initial reports and went to Law Enforcement was there was a high concern of Hazardous Material being carried on that train. It was corn syrup. So i appreciate information was shared, that does not sound to me like First Responders are being looked after when theyre getting to an incident like this. There needs to be a better way of sharing accurate and timely information. I appreciate the questions of my colleague ms. Fincher as well in this particular area it but im hopeful more can be done there. And that is where, madam chair how can the process be improved to ensure it once a derailment happens the First Responders quickly receive the information they need to properly respond . They ate meat advance notification i do appreciate what the railroads have done with the app the problem is when you have a derailment and train cars are bunched up when you are pulling up from the ask rail app it goes by a car in order. If you are looking at major rail meant with cars all over the place again bunched up you are not going to know what similar car. That is not helpful. But the First Responders need to quickly pause you there cannot be fixed . Ill have to get back to on that. If that is a problem or we have an incident we know it exists today in it thats broken in the system, lets fix it progress advance notification for the First Responder community is key because they need to be prepared they need to be adequately trained they need the right gear they need to have Emergency Response planning done in coordination with the railroad. So that they can be prepared in case something happens. I certainly agree with that. But i want to bring attention to the challenge you identify and i appreciate you identifying it. For breath that system is in place and theres not communication because cars are close to one another and you know its in there, i just hope that is something that can be fixed. Someone knows whats in there. Mr. Whitaker first, thank you for your testimony in your work representing the workforce. Cut over 30 and they mentioned that in the open. But explain the workforce have a concrete impact on improving outcomes and it comes to safety . Adding to the workforce would definitely strengthen inspections. Will be able to reduce fatigue on people as well would it paid leave help the people are getting worn out and tired and think about nature your fresh eyes would that help . Absently paired right now we have people sick with the flu, covid, whatever the case may be they are afraid to take time off because if they mark off sick they get reprimanded. I appreciate that my time has expired i certainly appreciate this hearing i have so many questions i will submit the rest of the record. For everyone helping the families, thank you for what youre doing. Please come note loopholes filings, rulemakings, we could all do better at that. Thank you. Under blackburn. Thank you madam chairman and i want to thank you all for being here for the hearing today. When i know that everyone is hard at work trying to help the people of East Palestine. I so appreciate the governors remarks at the outset. I know my colleague, senator vance has really worked hard to bring some attention to this community. Chief comstock i want to come to you. It is my understanding the aar in partnership with Emergency Management agencies and at Sumner County tennessee piloted the addition of data to their emergent Emergency Management dispatching system. Following the derailment and East Palestine firefighters were on the ground for 90 minutes but could not access the app to get information about what substances were on board the train. She did an interview in which she said none of the First Responders we had the app on their devices at all. So, can you give me a little bit more information about how the app may have been used and whether First Responders are making effective use of the app . What are the requirements about using that app . Looks respect to requirements im not aware of any. After the effective use of the app i asked my own Department Members as to how minorities ann that app presently. I fell in 50 of the firefighters had that app a much higher with respect to our departments officers. The factors were the railcars were off the track. They were bunched up in a ladder style formation. Keep in mind it was nights. You had burning cars and smoke on some of the proctors had burned off. You have to try to use that at somewhat a safe distance. So it can be difficult. I think it is a good app but could be used more. We need to have better education echoes handinhand with the trainings we discussed and advocated for i would also add with respect to technology. There are apps i have on my phone when a car flipped the on star information or others will be relayed to the app. What examples i responded to rapidsos it gathers technology,s it to my dispatcher my dispatcher gets that to me on my phone so in route to a Motor Vehicle accident on the car has flipped three times the airbag has gone out in this information about that car. Whether its electric car, things i have to worry about i should be able to get that theinformation about trains i think. Mr. Jeffries, let me come to you. What issue your understanding for how the app was used or not access during the incident . Based on what i read i believe it was access but i do not have details by who and how. To be clear which free to all First Responders and to date we have taken responder by responder approach there are a lot of First Responders in this country having 35000 with the app is not sufficient, not ready to be thats were shifting to Emergency Communication Center approach also knowing as i understand it First Responders will always have access to Emergency Communication Center. At the central repository that has it information responders can individually delve the app we are wide open to looking at ways of working with congress and others in the First Responder community to further penetrate that population to get this into his many peoples hands as possible. You would say the app is not working . I think the app works very well and decide what its going to do. Its making sure everybody mark we get into as many peoples hands as possible going responded by responder is a slow meticulous way to achieving that. Okay, alright thank you very much. Thank you madam chair for quick senator hickenlooper . Thank you. Let me ask a question, mr. Jeffries the real plays a crucial role in transporting goods throughout our nation. I want to talk about a specific rail project in the west that is reportedly seeking to billiondollar private activity bonds from gog. That would be a taxpayerfunded subsidy for a project that has raised concern among Community Leaders in colorado. The cost is gone up significantly. This type of dot bond eidson issue clear publication benefit. Are you aware of any examples of private activity bonds, issued primarily for transportation of commodities for private sale . Senator, i am not aware of any. I would not say there absently have not been any but im certainly not aware of any. Okay. If you could follow up on that, that would be great. And chairwoman, you have gone over in some detail the high hazard flammable train definition. The train carrying 20 or more tank cars are 35 take cars, i guess one question i would be curious about is what other risk factors such as proximity to Natural Resources should be considered when providing notice of a high hazard flammable . That should be considered for high hazard flammable train. Also, just to clarify for the record none of the responders had access to the app when they did not have the information for quite some time on what was on the train. With that said, senator for this one i do believe environmentally sensitive areas and waterways should be considered. Especially for routing of trades. And for protection. Ex thank you, i appreciate that and agree. Chief comstock, thank you and all your First Responder collects your dedication to public service. The images that we saw from East Palestine were horrific. Not just the environmental destruction but the homes, community, the lives. The statistic i was shown says Hazardous Material cars involved in derailment have increased 339 from 1986 until 2021. You discussed the need for all Fire Departments to have access to training, to safely respond to Hazardous Material. Could more resources be provided by the Hazardous Materials Safety Administration to increase Safety Training and response capacity for Fire Departments . Yes particularly your talk about the handson training. There is a lot of Fire Fighters who cannot take time off work. We need to not only have a good hands on which that Railway Industry is looking to try to increase but we need to find ways to deliver that we need to be creative and find ways to get that to those departments in rural areas. Nonce weather through the use of technology or more Home Delivery programs like it is operating. Thats how were going to have to do over going to need to devote more resources. What role should Rail Companies play in ensuring companies have adequate to plan for and also to respond to real disasters . Was going to have to be a partnership who has an interest in this issue. We need to work with the railways, they need to work with us. I think its going to be a continued improved results as a result of this hearing and the derailment. Thank you chief. And chairwoman, do you agree with that in response in terms of participation of the railroads as well . Absolutely. We have had a recommendation on ensuring local Emergency Response planning and providing resources including appropriate training. The great, thank you very much. Think if your testimony i go back to the chair. Norfolk southern is headquartered in atlanta. It runs in the extensive extensive operationincluding 17, 600 bridges, 2700 railroad highway grade crossings and a number of rail yards and transfer facilities and cities across the entire state. A multi modal state thats a lot of rail in georgia. I cannot help but see the accident in East Palestine and wonder what would have happened instead of watching this in ohio witnessing this or experiencing it in georgia. Mr. Shaw can you give me and the people of georgia confidence we wont see an accident like this in georgia . Senator, thank you for the question i am terribly sorry for the derailment in East Palestine we are working every day to make Norfolk Southern and the Rail Industry safer. We have seen the plume and it results from the ntsb investigation. We have made a number of enhancements to our own safety programs and response. We have worked with industry to enhance safety input and more safety features there are many aspects of the bill that we fully support to enhance real safety. We are a safe railroad. The number of disparate ailments on Norfolk Southern it was a lois laster than it has been in the last two decades. Senator warnock i am fully committed to enhancing safety for Norfolk Southern and for the entire industry. It is good to hear in the work that you want to do. Could you speak more specifically, what more needs to be done in your review to protect our citizens and our neighbors from accidents like this . Think you senator. We have announced we enhance our enhancing our Detector Network we are adding 200 detectors to our network. We are piloting a nextgeneration hot bearing detectors. We are working on the industry best best practices for safety. We are deploying more acoustic bearing detectors across our network and we are installing a digital inspection portal. We are piloting with georgia tech outside to inspect the passing trains and catch things the human eye cannot catch. We will continue to invest in safety we spent over a billion dollars on capitol and over abillion dollars in ongoing operating expenses. Is there anything you did not have in place during this accident i know hindsight is 2020 that you wish you wouldve had in place . What i can point you to do somethe steps we are taking now based on the preliminary results of the investigation. I certainly look forward to fully cooperating throughout the full investigation and look forward to those results. I have the time to move across the state you and i had a chance to talk we will keep that communication line open but i have to tell you as they move across the states and i talked to nor focused southern workers i am here for rail workers the policies around the working conditions and creating safety issues and may have contributed to this accident. Do you believe your worker policies contributed to this in any way . Senator, our palaces there to promote the safety of train operations. I too have been fully engaged with our colleagues my first day as ceo i went out into the field and i walked into the crew room and i am engaged with our employees and i think them for their service to Norfolk Southern their service to our customers and their service to the United States. Since i became ceo, senator, we have been on a hiring spree we have 15 or more employees than we did at this time last year. So how are you working with those employees and labor on any changes you are considering . What have you learned from the accident that might result in changes to work policy . Senator, i am committed to improving the Safety Culture at Norfolk Southern and throughout the industry. I have reached out to the heads up our two Largest Labor unions and asked them for their assistance and their input on how we can advance safety and Norfolk Southern. Thank you so much and i look forward to working with you and with the labor and all of your colleagues. To do everything we can and make sure everything is done for the safe operation of our rail infrastructure. Thank you, senator warnock. It has been an interesting hearing for sure. A lot of information but i would like to get some clarity because we do want to move legislation in this area. I do want to start the information. My state has definitely seen but theres a debate are we seeing an increase in derailments . My state definitely. It is great we had a witness who is actually a marketing expert because ms. Allison said you can always take members and mean Different Things i am letting you know this is a 10 year window in my state we definitely have seen an increase in derailments. And because we carry so much oil it is always an issue for us and the communities that go through the areas. I wanted to start with you as it relates to legislation i originally introduced in 2015 lets get rid of. 111 and now the infrastructure bill look at 2029 date this legislation says listed by 2025 do you agree that is the right . Yes. Ntsb agrees we should move up the dates and eliminate the dot 111 from hazmat service. Not just from class three flammable liquid service but all hazmat service in this train. We had 16 dot 111. Only three of them would be covered under the final rule. Okay the rest of the witnesses agree . One 100 . Lee filed jointly with the shippers in 2011 to upgrade 111. Following the 2014 rule came to congress because there was a 20 cart loophole there is not thermal protection there were not other protected Severe Weather on board ive done in a way that manufacturers can achieve your goals and acting with you support the legislation to move the date the 2025 . I support moving forward is feasibly is 20 as possible. 2025 . Whatever the manufacturers can make happen. Was a shock question i guess we support the component for accelerating safer tank car standards for. Okay lets turn to other issues if we could on your investments. One of the things i want to ask you about, mr. Shaw is you been talking about you have had a less derailments. But i am pretty sure weve seen an increase in accidents we think 14 . This issue is about the number of accidents. She was talk about the video issue. It does not matter. Issues are issues. And at the same time. As this increase of 14 we also as you stated earlier you invested 1 billion in safety. However, at data from the Company Provided a transportation board said you cut Network Investments by 30 in just five years. At the same time accident rates increase by 60 . Meanwhile the company made a record. This is a discussion are we putting the right resources into the network . Are we putting the right resources in your opinion . Yes we are. Investing over a Million Dollars a year. And Safety Improvements are Capitol Improvement overall has increased about 30 we are hiring at a record clip. The chart shows this is your own information. An increase investment in a 22 decrease in the number of employees. As i became at and may of last year we went on an aggressive hiring spree and that continues until this day. I will note last of the number of derailments on Norfolk Southern the damaging impact of these accidents on the Lasting Impact on our children, no. You cannot put our kids to bed at night and saw comfortable this is an issue across the board in aviation, and transportation, we are not going to take profits over safety investments. We are going to require mike arlene think thats good business. But here we are going to make sure those investments are made across the board for safety. So i want to get to this issue as it relates to the workforce. Particularly this issue of what role they play in the inspection process. Do you think the Current System works . Or do you think we need more enhancements there . And workforce . The bill increases the workforce. Some of the testimony by mr. Whitaker would say we need more on the workforce side. Senator, with respect to the bill we certainly support requires fra audits. They fully support the concept of a triennial review of rail Safety Standards. We asked you to send this information about standards here and you stated that you do not have policies that mandate minimum or maximum amount of time needed for inspection of a railcar and yet this information shows that it is part of the document of the railcar inspection that you are saying you are saying to your employees t. 5 minutes per car with one inspection. Thats saying that you have to inspect one side of that car within 30 seconds. Mr. Whitaker, do you know about this . Im aware about this issue here. Conductors knows how to inspect most of those. We are going to materials with Hazardous Materials the and unforgiving equipment. I dont think that you support the brown bill as it relates to requirement of more people than just the conductor on a railcar but this is just an example of how, i think, the system is being shortchanged and while the Information Age gives us all sorts of ideas of efficiency, we cant take that to extreme when you end up cutting safety and the Safety Standards we have to have minimum Safety Standards, we have to have modernization of Safety Technology and we have to have the minimum amount of people to do the job, so thats whats going to be required across every sector of transportation and this committee is going to the make sure that we get there because we cant because we are not going to let people just keep, you know, putting money in the bank and thinking that you can shortchange safety. We cant shortchange East Palestine so what are your thoughts of at least getting rid of this, getting rid of the notion that its 30 seconds . Im not familiar with a might be male or maximum on railcar inspection direction. We do support evidencebased approach to the improve outcomes for customers and the communities we serve. Well, maybe you can find somebody in your organization to get you this document but its clearly your document and its clearly whats being implemented and i dont think its the standard that we want and i dont think its a safe idea. Now i would like to go to this larger issue. The underlying bill is requirement for training of local Fire Fighting teams on dealing with this kind of material. Is there enough in there or do we need to put something in here about equipment. I asked the first panel about this . I think it goes hand in hand. We have to have specialize equipment and i raised in my original submittal that we need turnout gear. Best example is one set of turnout gear. When i have to wash that, i am out of service. I had 3 firefighters that were exposed. Their gear is contaminated. It takes six months to get replacement gear. Thats an everyday use that we need. Specialized suits that can cost 15,000 or more or specialized monitor equipment is unrealistic for the froth to provide that to the every department but we do need to look at a regional approach to call on teams so we can supplement. We need to do more than what we have in the bill . Yes. I talk to a lot of firefighters across the state of washington and believe me rail goes everywhere in our state. Are you willing to support whats in the underlying bill, are you willing to do more than the underlying bill to make sure Fire Fighting have the equipment that they need. Senator we support and we are willing to do more to the support firefighters. We just opened up regional Training Facility in ohio for First Responders. Im thinking something a little different. Having resources up front in the timely manner to have in the a community and the challenge here to figure out how to do that and where to do that. I think if we will move product like this, we cant leave it up to volunteered firefighters to be on the front line. We have to think of what is a way to put resources into the local community so i appreciate the fact that youre willing to consider that mr. Jeffress. 100 agree. Great place to look at Hazardous Materials Emergency Preparedness program which is about 28. 3 million annually and its been there like that for years and needs to increase. It is paid for by fees by the shippers and transporters of hasmat. Okay. We get consensus there. I dont think the video that you brought up earlier is in there but youre saying that there should be some video communication. Youre saying that theres missing video from this accident, youre saying that you dont have video, that it wasnt required, there was video but we dont have it because the engine moved on and went somewhere else and was video taped over . Yes. In the dupont accident you were mentioning how valuable, why was it valuable during the dupont accident . Very valuable. Some assumed early on, not us that there was destruction in the cab and we could see in the video that that did not occur we always could see there was hesitation by the engineer around controls. We determined through the investigation including looking at the video that they werent provided adequate training to the train crew. Okay. Thats not right. Youre putting too much pressure on employees right now with inadequate training and im sure the numbers i would be curious to see what the retention rate is. I know mr. Shaw brags about how much they have hired people, whats the retention rate of people sticking around . Im an advocate for twoperson crew, obviously. Mr. Whitaker, what standards should we be looking at given that we have the transformation and longer trains . I dont think i have heard intermettently through the committee but this is sea change. Right. I dont even have time to look out the window of my locomotive half of the time. We have people that have zero Railroad Experience running our railroads. We could be so much more efficient and do so much better if Railroad Management would listen to labor. We could move trains without incident and could make things more safe but they justave to listen. What would you have done in this instance . What i feel should have been done with the technology and this is something going back to last year that i sounded the whistle on, we need to eliminate trending defect detector keeping that information to the ourselves and our headquarters, okay, lets just take a chance lets move the train down the line. Thats what they are doing. You are saying that they knew that this train had a weak spot, is that what youre saying . Absolutely. R youve saying the train had a weak spot . If their train defect detector according to ntsb report that ive said theyve seen the cart turn hotter and hotter. Mr. Shaw, did someone at Norfolk Southern have that information . Senator, from my understanding once the train hit the third detector which showed we hit the threshold, then the crew acted accordingly. Why did you keep putting the car on is the question . Mr. Whitaker said there should have been a signal. Im telling you right now, we are going to transparency and technology and make sure that people are getting that information as fast as possible. We are going to use ntsb to help us hold faa accountable and we are going to help them the as they are today hold accountable. We have to look at safety trends we have to look at what is coming at us. Thats what technology can do. We cant ignore that because we want to make some more money. We have to go and say we are going to make the investment and we are going the make sure that everybody has the information and thats how we keep on top of safety. In atlanta Norfolk Southern has desk and what they saw at the educational background wayside detector is nonCritical Alert. It wasnt critical alarm laws the threshold at the time was 103 plus 10degrees from underneath the train and they got a critical alarm at the last one. If by that time the train was in the process of derailing because there is a little bit of a delay, the crew will get information but at the train control desk, the entire train needs to move past that wayside detector before the train control desk has that information. With that said, theres also at the same time dealing with other trains that may have warm or hot bearings. So youre saying mr. Whitaker, what are you saying . That before this knowing that the information was there something should have happened on these cars and somebody, if you would have had the information and the workforce would have the information, they would have asked for further inspection, is that what youre saying . That is what im saying. When youre on a train and youre passing over defect detector, if that detector senses a will bearing hits a threshold, we hear a deep alarm, that tells me as locomotive engineer, all right, im not going to apply train brakes on the train because i dont know whats wrong with them. Dynamic breaking which slows the lock motive down. Im going to come to a safe stop and once i clear the detector its going to tell me whats wrong that in this case if i see a my tire pressure on my carlosing air im going to pull over and stop and check that out, right . If i own a railroad and i see a wheel heating up, im going to protect my investment and im going to call that train crew, hey, i know that youre not meeting the threshold here but you need to stop and check this out. It can be something, a hand brake applied on a car or a stuck brake, something that could be addressed right then the and there. So once it start trending we need to stop and check it out no matter if we dont even hit that threshold. Lets take the safe course of action. Thank you. All right. Senator cruz, thank you. You have a followup for second round . Sorry, i took my first and second round together. All good. You have been very patient and thank you for putting, weve been here for much long time here, so we appreciate it. Well, thank you madame chair and thank you to the witnesses, this has been a productive hearing, useful hearing. Mr. Jeffreys i want to start with this. Everybody is concerned about enhancing Safety Standards to minimize the risk of derailments and i think theres bipartisan interest in moving rail safety legislation. I think we are going to be successful in doing that. At the same time we want to enhance safety, we want to protect the interest of consumers and i will say there are portions of the brown bill as currently drafted that concern me in particular giving significantly more authority to the department of transportation, this department of transportation their policies created a apply chain, drove up costs and increased scarty for consumers all across the country and the Biden Administration has also demonstrated deep animus to energy and i would certainly be concerned about giving secretary buttigieg the authority to make it difficult to transport energy in the United States and drive up costs for consumers. In your judgment, mr. Jeffress what are the provisions of the current draft of the bill that concern you and in particular what can be the negative consequences for consumers of secretary buttigieg having too much authority to drive up costs . Well, thank you for that. I very much appreciate the question. Contrary to statements that have been made the aar has not taken a position on this bill, frankly, i think theres a peaceful path forward on almost every provision in there. I think theres an opportunity to Work Together to try to get to yes. I think the provision youre asking about is one that would apply, i think, upwards of 12 new rule makings around any train thats moving at least one car of hasmat. Over 40 of trains move and that could be a flammable gas. It could also be asphalt and in my view im not sure applying those same levels of restrictions for flammable gases and asphalt makes a lot of sense because of the overarching impacts. Similar to the ups. Does that mean that nothing should be done, absolutely not. Really focuses on what is truly a higher risk versus one that perceives little risk so theres a path forward there and we need to target what we will work with you to try to find a solution that enhances safety while at the same time protecting the interest of consumers. Mr. Shaw, you and i talked yesterday and you described that Norfolk Southern was a proponent of venting and burning the vital chloride from all five tanks, at least one of the tanks was significantly injured. There has been disagreement whether tanks were compromised or not. Will you commit to providing the committee with any and all information as to the condition of all five tank cars . Yes, we will be transparent with the committee about our understanding of the conditions on the ground. My goal during the entire process was to provide unified command and the Incident Commander with the best information that we had. At that point there was concern that these four cars had been in a pool fire and that the pressure release valve had fell and there was concern about the pressure on the cars. In terms of the decision to vent and burn the vinyl chloride which is what caused the smoke and the rather extraordinary sight of American City essentially on fire, among the Decision Makers that were engaged in that process, did anyone disagree with the recommendation to vent and burn the individual chloride from all five tank cars . Sir, my understanding is unified command was aligned around that decision and that decision was based solely on the safety of that community. What are the alternatives to venting and burning and what are the risks involved in the venting and burning procedure . Unventing and burning is to look at alternatives. In this case, they were melted so that was not an option. You could do hot tapping which is essentially cutting a hole in the tank and draining the liquid essentially transloading it to another railcar. There are risks to that and then theres the vent and burn. Mr. Shaw, the locomotive that was involved in this derailment was immediately or almost immediately put into service on another train and so the video was not available for examination. Did that happen and why . I have to the admit hearing that both senator and i looked at each other and thought that was a bizarre thing to hear. So is that true and if so why . Senator, my understanding is that 15 minutes of video are available time before, during and immediately after the derailment. My understanding is we followed protocols. Mr. Shaw, i asked you to answer the question i asked, is it true the locomotive was very shortly thereafter put into service and the result was significant portions of the video were missing . Senator the, at some point after and sounds like it was shortly after, i dont have the details. Im happy to follow up. Let me say theres a locomotive involved in a serious derailment its lunacy that the video is not preserved and that locomotive is put into alternative service. I feel confident that we can get unanimity with this committee on that. Theres a lot of discussion command central having the wayside detectors and the engineer not having the information. This particular tank car has forelling southern examined whether it triggered previous wayside detect its either on this train or in other circumstances . I believe thats part of ntsb investigation. Has Norfolk Southern examined that . Do you neglect if it had triggered previous wayside dedirects or . Im not aware that it did. Do you have information on this and are you confident we will get the answer at some point . I will provide you the answer. It had not reached the critical threshold that is set by Norfolk Southern. She described her 7yearold who was afraid for his own health and safety. What is your answer to her and other moms, what is your answer tonight, what should she tell her child, her 7yearold child tonight and what should other moms in that circumstance tell their kids tonight . Senator, im terribly sorry for the impact this has had on the community and i know that its been traumatic. I was there during the burn and i saw plume and theres ongoing testing by the ohio epa and Pennsylvania Department of environmental protection. They all showed that the air is safe and the water is safe to breathe. Millions of data points. Theres still enormous concern within the community about three longterm issues. One is longterm health care, one is about property valuations as you noted and one is ongoing Water Monitoring so Norfolk Southern is working with relevant stakeholders which include state and local authorities setting up funds to cover all three of those. How many families were impacted . Senator, there are 4700 approximately folks and some in pennsylvania as well. You had said earlier in your testimony that you spent to date if i got the number right 24 million, you also noted 6,000 families altogether. Doing quick math thats 4,000 per family. Do you agree with with ms. Allisons testimony that home prices have dropped significantly and theres a mom scared for her kids that she right now doesnt have great options . Senator, i understand your point our contributions are just the start and what we are offering through the Family Assistant Center that folks want to relocate. Our Family Assistant Center has been opened since the day of derailment. Youre saying if the family in East Palestine wants to move that Norfolk Southern will pay cost of moving and you will also make them whole senator, what im saying if they want to leave their house for a while we will pay for relocation fees and we are working with relevant stakeholders and longterm fund for the property valuable insurance. Youll put them up in a motel or hotel temporarily but youre not assisting with moving . I just want to understand what youre doing right now . Right now we are putting them up in a hotel the and paying for food and clothing if needed. We are also working with relevant stakeholders and longterm fund for property valuation. Let me say, mr. Shaw, you said multiple times that you want to make it right. Make it right is a real commitment and this committee expects Norfolk Southern to do just that. These people and the families matter. Well, thank you, senator cruz. That the concludes our hearing. I thank all the witnesses for participating today. The letters from the East Palestine residents regarding impact of derailment be entered into the record and without objection so ordered. The hearing will be open for two weeks, the the committee will be accepting comments on the brown vance legislation. The senators will have until wednesday, fifth of april at noon to submit questions for the record to the committee. The witness wills have two weeks to respond to those questions. We are standing with those dates. The committee is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] on te notion of resources that we need to get to help the First Responders. We are going to follow up on that. We need more in the northwest and we heard from the Rail Industry that they want to do more. Theres models that are working. So lets just figure out what we need to get done. Well, thats part of what we are discussing. I think having having a workforce that somebody fails to respond in 30 seconds on inspection is not good and my guess is that from what mr. Whitaker is saying that theres great advantage to safety having more people, so we will have to look at that as well. I think that we do need sharp crisp answers of what people support and dont support. Yeah, i think we theres a lot of comments and the more accurate people can be about their positions and why is how important is it that Norfolk Southern supports i dont know that thats the barometer. I think the committee is sophisticated on rail issues and what i think that theyre going the want to know because you can see that we have a lot of questions and i would consider them hardhitting on both sides. I think what people want to know is how to not have this happen again. Do you have a sense are these addressable questions. How close do you think the members are to making the decision, if you think the nominations i think that people, we want today have the hearings with our colleague who is accountable to the act that we asked them to implement. Busy existing job which is safety, but, you know, we are glad that the committee is taking a much more aggressive poll on safety. A lot of people could have decided not to come to that hearing. But i think what really is at the backdrop on all of this the is people are like what is going on, senator cruz asked that, what is going on, whats going on and then, no, we are seeing an increase in trend and near misses and this is what we think causing it and we didnt have the testimony at that hearing but since then people have said that there are Human Factors and that open faa issue could have forced that implementation of those. So i think now members are taking all of that discussion that we just had and saying, what is going on. Theres a lot going on on aviation safety and people digesting what happened at the submit and what is going on and my point is, important day job and you ask yourself why havent we implemented what chair is saying would have helped prevent some of the near misses. So i think everybody is getting the big miss about what is happening in aviation and Safety Culture and now saying, okay, what do we need to do to make sure that we are as aggressive on Infrastructure Investment, big theme here, big theme across the board. Are people shortchanging Infrastructure Investment in exchange for profit. You can say that faa, you know, is in the daily whip but guess they also probably did, southwest shortchanged, Infrastructure Investment. They didnt do it. The f the aa, i dont know how they made aviations divisions. Now they are going to upgrade the no tamp system. I think people are looking at what did he do at both la and denver to implement safety regulation. Did he do anything on these issues on the listing, did he implement things on that. Thats a trend youre seeing it is. We just noticed that it is happening. Look, in an Information Age guess what you get, you get more information. I can make more money this way, okay, but that could be dramatically at odds with safety and so dont do it, okay, you know, we can see an aviation where that wasnt the best idea. The point is the point is for us whether they agree that thats not a good idea or not. I guaranty we are not going to let carriers of people get away with shortchanging safety. We are not going to do it. You have to make the investment to have the safest system you have to have the highest standards, the most modernized equipment and the most minimal amount of people. Thats just what it takes, so i think people are going to agree on that. There may be nuances on the details but i think we are going to try to capitalize on the fact that brown and vance already came together so they have a big chunk of this and, again, as i mentioned earlier we had some of this in previous bills before the committee. I think we can move fast. Is there a date to bring back vote no, but we would like to do it soon. Yeah, yeah. On the rail, what do you think a realistic timeline would be to get a bill through committee and onto the floor . Oh, yeah, oh yeah. Yeah. [inaudible conversations] exactly