At princeton i think it was back in 2012, this is when there was the start of enthusiasm over big data was happening. Isple were saying big data transforming everything from finance to sports to journalism, marketing, insurance, education. But no one was yet working on how big data would or would not transform the criminal Justice System. Id had a longstanding interest in the criminal Justice System and i started to ask, how are the police, courts, corrections, leveraging things like predictive algorithms and how is it changing daily operations . I quickly realized there was not actually ironically very good data,n police use of big and thats when i decided to pursue an ethnographic study on that question. Susan we will have lots of time to explore the details, but what is the conclusion you came to after you spent this amount of time investigating the topic . Sarah the conclusion is basically that instead of thinking about data as some sort of objective or fundamentally unbiased tool, i think it is better to think about data as situated in social systems and organizations. Its like a form of capital, some people have more or less of, it can be used for different purposes and it has an increasing amount of value in organizations. It can be used to achieve different types of organizational goals. Of book disabuse us folks the notion that data is an objective and unbiased force that can fix all of the problems that have existed for decades if not centuries. Susan in effect, it is a cautionary tale for people who are looking at the use of data to solve some of the policing problems the country is having. Sarah correct. Susan you write that big data and the criminal Justice System motivates my work. First, define what data is. What is big data . Typically it refers to volume, meaning there is a lot of different pieces of data. Second, it has to do with variety. The data comes from a range of disparate institutional sources. The police have always collected their own crime data, for example, but increasingly the police are using information from a range of institutional sources, like private data brokers, social media data. That is the variety part of it. Velocity has to do with processing and sometimes Storage Capacity as well. Analysiss you can run on this best of these vast troves of data that previously wouldve taken days or weeks, but with increasing computing power, we can run them almost instantaneously and often remotely as well. Susan why do you come to the conclusion that the u. S. Criminal Justice System is overgrown . Youh sort of no matter how measure it, the u. S. Criminal Justice System is unprecedented in size and scope, both in International Comparative perspective, looking at p nations, but also historically. , but p nations historically. The been on this ride since 1970s. Also if we look at federal expenditures directed toward local Law Enforcement agencies or the number of cops on the street, the United States is without peer in terms of the size and scope of the criminal Justice System. Sometimes scholars talk about the phenomenon as mass incarceration, chest to do with not just the reach of who is behind bars but the families, communities, neighborhoods that are heavily surveilled and policed as well. Susan one statistic you give is that 70 million americans have a record on file with criminal justice agencies, that is out of a population of 330 million americans. Is that statistic a surprising one compared to other western nations . Sarah it is definitely very surprising and also surprising to the audiences i present to as well. Ive had many folks in the audience try to correct me on that, saying you must have an extra zero in there and that kind of thing. There is a tendency sometimes to think about involvement in the criminal Justice System as this sort of unusual or uncommon experience, whereas increasingly, particularly for certain demographic groups such as those with lower levels of Educational Attainment or racial minorities, involvement in the criminal Justice System is a modal life experience. I think it is a surprising statistic, especially when you look in comparison to other countries with similar crime rates. Susan to write this book and do this research, you spent a lot of time in the field. Tell me about that experience. Sarah basically, as i mentioned, theres not very much data on police use of big data, so what that called for was what we call ethnographic fieldwork, which is talking to people, watching people as they do they go through their daily lives. I needed to get access to a Police Department and i selected the lapd not because it is an average Police Department, it is not, it is large and wellfunded. But i selected it for those reasons, it is on the forefront of police use of Data Analytics and i thought it could broadcast some trends that could shape a smaller Police Departments in coming years. My fieldwork involved observations and interviews with foreign officers and civilian employees in different areas and specialized divisions of lapd. The Information Technology division, records and identification, robbery homicide, fugitive warrants. Alongs andon ride did some observations at the joint Regional Intelligence Center in southern california. Fusion centers are basically these multidisciplinary, multi agency surveillance organizations funded by the federal government, largely in the wake of 9 11, which was seen as a failure for the intelligence community. I also did interviews with folks who work at Key Technology companies who designed some of the Analytic Software the lapd uses. Those include things like talent lantir. Pa susan was your presence in the Police Department welcomed for the most part . Sarah thats an interesting question. Obtain say i was able to a great degree of access, unprecedented in some ways. But there was a lot of variation in how i was received, i think. This is one of the things that Ethnographic Research exposes. Heterogeneityof in Police Department. The people who were very proud of how the department was using data, they consider themselves on the vanguard and leaders in the field, and they were excited to have me there and show me the new technological tools they had. But at the same time, historically police have not been particularly receptive to researchers or journalists spending time with them. There was a certain garden this or resistance and other spaces where they were concerned i was going to do a hit piece on them, that i was going to come in and do a gotcha story and leave. I think the resistance to my presence declined the longer i spent in the field, because i was able to build some of those relationships and share my findings with the police themselves. There was also a lot of confusion about who i was, to be honest, in the field, because Police Department are very hierarchical organizations. Up would voucher for my presence, they would say the sergeant would say it is fine, and then the patrol officers would find that to be tolerable. But they often confused who i was. They would say, instead of saying i was a sociologist from princeton, they would say she is a psychologist from harvard or a senior from stanford and that kind of thing. There was definitely confusion about my presence in the field as well, particularly on ride alongs. Susan it was important to select lapd, but how many Police Departments around the United States are actually using software and big Data Collection . Sarah unfortunately, i dont have the answer to that question. I think that is a fundamental problem when we are talking about, we are having nationwide conversations about what policing should and should not look like. There isnt any centralized data on this. Here are some National Surveys , it are pretty out of date is voluntary compliance, and a lot of the time, the budgetary allocations to these kind of advanced technologies are pretty ambiguous. You cant necessarily always tell from a Police Budget amount of money is spent on this kind of thing. I think it would probably fall somewhere in the 70 range from what i have read, with the departments not using these kind of tools largely being small Police Department. The United States, another thing that is unique about the criminal Justice System, we have whereystem of policing there are a lot of Police Departments that are extremely small, under 20 officers, and they lack the training, funding, infrastructure for these technologies. Susan one other question about your preparation and research, you founded something called the texas Prison Education initiative. What is it and how did it inform your work on this topic . Sarah it is basically just a group of volunteer professors ,nd graduate students, postdocs who teach classes in prison. School, igraduate started volunteer teaching and state prisons in new jersey, just volunteer Teaching College classes. When i moved to texas, which has one of the largest prison populations in the country, i figured the university here would have the same sort of Prison Ed Program to volunteer with. For me, it is important because it is a skill set around being an educator, and also i do research on the criminal Justice System. It seems unwise to have no exposure to folks whose lives are on the line in the system. There wasnt a Prison Education program at ut at the time. Along with a fellow graduate student, we founded the texas Prison Education initiative and now we offer College Credit classes to about hundred 50 folks. 150 folks. Everything from sociology to physics, english, math. Credit ins are for available without cost to the students. Susan how did that work inform your conclusions on pig data and policing . Sarah one of the things that came up that is informing my future research, is a lot of the time there is a lack of knowledge or information among the folks incarcerated about the particulars of their case. Particularly the police investigation. I would have students say things to me like my lawyer had no idea, my defense attorney had no idea was under suspicion. They did not know why the cops were sitting outside my house that day. One of the things about big data policing is it is largely invisible. When we have a lot of cops on the street, that is a very visible Police Presence you can understand and feel. Big data policing can be invisible and it is hard to put your finger on. One is going on in Police Investigative procedures is largely black ops. I think this exacerbates preexisting inequalities in the system. Susan you mentioned there was a big uptick following 9 11, thats also when people began to see Police Department around the country were bringing surplus military equipment into their use. That decision is being reexamined both at the state and national level. You write the creep of military software into Police Operations is largely overlooked. Why is that . It is precisely because it is so invisible. As you said, theres been increased attention about the militarization of policing, how Police Departments are getting surplus military kit, small, local police permits have tanks and that sort of thing. Software istary this largely untold part of the story, where a lot of different techniques and platforms and algorithms that were initially designed for military applications are being imported into local policing. I think the regional reason we dont know much about it is because it is largely invisible. Downan see a tank rolling the street at the pumpkin festival in New Hampshire but you cant necessarily see they are using predictive algorithms. Susan Police Department have used data, even if it was manually collected, for a long time. Is the issue here that rather than reactive policing, solving a crime that has happened, it is the use of data to predict where crime might happen and how that is used and whether it is used equally . Is that the question for society . Sarah i think that is one of the nubs of the question, weve had this shift from reactive to proactive policing. Also occurring, as you said, the police have been long collecting their own data, but that is on people they have contact with. One is happening in the digital age is the police are increasingly collecting information on all of these folks who have no direct criminal justice contact. Part of that has to do with the variety component of the three vs of big data, they are purchasing information from private companies, they are using tools like automatic license plate readers. You know have to get pulled over for your data to be put in their system. That kind of information is also being used in the predictive modeling, for example. A little more about the companies you mentioned. Tir first is palan technologies. Sarah they actually just went public in september of this year, so there is a little more Information Available on them now than before, but when i started this, very few people had heard of them. Essentially they have a platform gotham called palantir where Law Enforcement agencies and other clients are able to aggregate spirit sources of information and visualize them in certain ways. For example, the police might have their own crime data, but you can build out these networks were somebody at the center of the network might have direct Police Contact and be stopped by the police, for example, but there is a secondary Surveillance Network lets say i was stopped by the lapd and you never have. I called you on a phone and now your phone number is associated with it. Or i was parked outside of your house. Or it has information on who i am dating or who my siblings are or where i work. Thisave radiating out secondary Surveillance Network of individuals who dont have any Law Enforcement contact. Thats one way to use it, to visualize different sources of data. It is also used for investigations. For example, there was an instance in which there was some copper wire theft going on in the city, and they were able to basically draw a radius and mapping had the function, and they were able to radiuse vehicles in the and narrow it down to three cars that mightve been involved in the crime. It is this very powerful Data Integration and surveillance tool that can yield insights that might have previously taken hundreds of detectives on a case, or weeks or months, and of this shoe leather policing, and you can use it to narrow that down. Susan people listening might say that sounds like a good thing, use less police resources. Wheres the problem . Inah i think the issue lies the sense that, in order for the system to work perfectly, we have to assume infallibility of the state. That the state never makes mistakes, and the inference one draws about why you are in a place at a given time are unbiased and without error. And everybody entering the data there is still a human side of Data Collection, its not all automated but anybody who enters the information will do so without bias or error or prejudice come and that is just not borne out in ethnographic fieldwork. We have tons of information that suggests the data inputted in these police systems, for example, is as much a function of Law Enforcement practices as it is actual ascending rates for we also have a lot of information that error is disproportionately distributed. There is a study out of michigan indicating that about that black folks are about seven times more likely to be wrongly convicted of murder than whites. In order to be ahead, if you think about dna databases, you have to be in the database in the first place. Part of the challenge with big data policing is so much of it is invisible and its hard to put your finger on exactly where the error comes in. Susan in other words, the Software Systems being incorporated in the process support existing Police Practices rather than a rethinking of how can we Better Police . Sarah yes, that is very well stated. Even though it runs counter to a lot of the Silicon Valley rhetoric about these systems being totally disruptive and transformative, i think to a large extent, they reproduce existing Police Practices under the veneer of objectivity. Susan i want to show our providence a spot commercial we found from 2012, from ibm, about predictive policing. [video clip] think my job was all about arrests. Chasing bad guys. Now we analyze crime data, spot patterns and figure out or to send patrols. Cut seriousies crime up to 30 . By stopping it before it happens. Lets build a smarter planet. So sarah brayne, how does the alliance on public companys and private vendors impact Citizen Rights . The increased reliance on the private sector and public policing is fundamentally undermining some avenues for accountability within public agencies. This holds true in policing but also as you follow cases into the criminal Justice System. Pretrialo used in determination, in sentencing and even in Community Supervision decisions as well. If you are unable to say why somebody has a high risk in a policing algorithm or my son has a high risk score in terms of childhood detention, that undermines what we call due process, the idea that everybody has a right to a fair trial. There is a certain amount of transparency required in order to have fairness of process and procedure. When you have this increased role of the private sector and public policing, they can hide behind trade and secrecy agreements, saying we will not disclose the specifics of our algorithm because it is a trade secret and that sort of thing, nondisclosure agreements, even if you submit public records requests, sometimes its hard to determine what private companies are doing for Public Police agencies food this lack of transparency can undermine accountability and i think due process, ultimately. Susan to learn a little more about what predictive help elective policing work, i want to spend more time on this, but you mention another software routinely used by quite a number of bigcity Police Departments. How does it work . Based it is a place policing algorithm, so essentially it takes three different types of input more, time of crime, with recent crimes more heavily in the algorithm, and that is used to predict where crime will predict in the future. It produces these 500 squarefoot boxes about the size of an intersection and officers at the beginning of their shift are instructed to do datadriven appointments, basically to go to these boxes and check in and out and hopefully deter or intercept crime. That is the fundamental nature of predpoll. There are others that use a wider range of input dana, but input data, but this model has just the three types of inputs. But others could use a range of data from demographic composition of an area to lots of different things. A kitchen sink model. Susan you write in your book that personbased or placed based predictions show the potential to reduce inequality but as currently used, increases in equality appearing to be objective. In other words, trojan horse. You mentioned chronic offender strategies. How do they work and how can they be applied unequally . Sarah within the department, they actually tried using the place based addictive policing addictiveet Violent Crimes after they used it for property crimes, and found it wasnt working very well. They found they were focusing on the wrong unit of analysis. For property crime, they focus on locations, for violent crime, the focus on the person. Lapdadopted a strategy in called operation laser. Within that strategy they created a ranked, ordered list of individuals according to their scores. The risk scores were cap related by giving folks five points if they are on parole or probation, five points for prior arrest with a handgun, five points for criminal history, and five points for gang affiliation. Then individuals were given one point for every Police Contact. Every time the Police Stopped them, they get an additional point added to their score. Then they are ranked according to the scores and chronic offender bullet turn bulletins, onepage bulletins that say your name, different addresses, people you are associated with, if you have any aliases, all of your previous Police Contacts. Essentially police are told, go out and stop these guys. It serves two functions, one is the ongoing intelligence gathering. You see where people are, who they are with and this type of thing. The second is to keep their risk scores high to further justify continually stopping them every day. This sort of can create a recursive loop or hidden feedback loop by which individuals have a high point score, they are stopped, that store,es their point thus increasing the probability they will get stopped in the future. What is key is this becomes the coupled from actual criminal offending. There is no outstanding warrant for their arrest or anything, but they have risk scores that get higher and higher because of ongoing Police Contact. It is a selffulfilling prophecy or selfjustifying cycle that can happen. Susan as a sociologist, what happens to people with regular interactions, being stopped when they havent committed a crime . Sarah there is a whole host of research on different things, sometimes called legal cynicism, and the idea basically being that you are more likely to be lawabiding if you find the criminal Justice System to be fair. For folks who are constantly getting stopped, even if they are not committing any crimes, this erodes the legitimacy of the system for them and makes them think it is not just the police that are unfair, but the state and government more broadly, and it can create this alienation and skepticism as well. In the sense that some of this can start to constitute harassment. There were some folks getting stopped upwards of four times a day, and that is really disruptive in your life, particular if youre trying to get on the straight and narrow and driving your kid around and you get stopped by the cops for times a day. It can be highly disruptive to your life. Susan we have a news clip from city,it is from new york about their program called comp stat. Is that very different from the programs used by lapd . Sarah its basically a precursor to predictive policing. It is a Management System where you take different crime data and make different precinct commanders responsible for driving the metrics down and reducing crime. In particular areas. It is largely a precursor to predictive policing. Bratton who implemented it at the time, he actually introduced predictive policing to lapd years later. Susan lets watch the news story. [video clip] jumps to answer for a big in robberies and assaults. There are a lot of things going on, crime is not headed in the right direction. This is comstat. Valdes explains what is going right and faces a grilling about ongoing problems began small. How are you doing with robbery, warrants . This is basic stuff. If you have a robbery issued, everyone at the podium needs to be tuned in. Every monday we analyze, just like always, we analyze where the robberies are occurring and what time they are occurring and try to pinpoint locations. 74 ande up almost robbery arrest but that is not the goal, the goal is crime prevention. Susan what are you hearing as you see a Public Meeting with Division Chiefs being questioned in a public setting about Crime Statistics in their area . Sarah basically i think what we are hearing is managerial oversight play out. Asking commanders, why are your crime rates going up in this division . I see when i look at these metrics, you might have more arrests, but i care about crime rates going down and why are they going down . It is essentially data being used as an accountability mechanism, and as a performance metric for evaluating Police Officerss performance. Susan what is the reaction of the Law Enforcement people you found in using these Software Systems . Do they think it is a plus for the work they do . Sarah this is one of the unexpected parts of my fieldwork, i would say. Ien i went into the research, was ambivalent about how lawenforcement might receive these tools. On the one hand, a lot of media portrayals, they portray lawenforcement like minority report, having the rashes voracious appetite for new technology to increase surveillance capacity. On the other hand, labor scholars would predict there would be resistance to these tools. Precisely as you mentioned, people feel like there is an entrenchment of managerial control, more oversight that plays out. On my first ride along, i got a little bit of insight into how it might be playing out in lapd. We pulled up to a vacant home, responding to a 911 call about a possible breakin. Up, the officer typed he was code6 and his laptop computer, meaning he had arrived. In that moment i got concerned because i thought to myself, i selected the lapd specifically because they are technologically advanced, why does this guy have to manually input the location of his vehicle . I asked, is there not some sort of way of them centrally knowing where all the cars are . He said oh yeah, every vehicle is equipped with a locator that pains the location of the vehicle every five seconds, but they are not turned on because of resistance from the Police Officers union. It was in that moment, it crystallized for me that data and technology are not some sort of inevitable or unbiased or objective tool. They are something that increases the power of some and decreases the power of others. Introduced,a was you had a real division and how people reacted to it. People in managerial roles, roles with more oversight, they tended to embrace these tools because it allowed them to know not just where officers go officers say they go, but where they actually go. It permitted an entrenchment of managerial control. They tended to embrace it, whereas the patrol officers tended to resist it, because they viewed it as the entrenchment of managerial oversight. Aso importantly, it played deskilling role as well, it eroded there professional autonomy. They would say things like i dont need an algorithm to tell me where to go, and what is an algorithm anyway . There was a lot of skepticism about the importance or the role , the opacity of algorithms. Susan when i read in your book about the policing, in their minds being a craft, not a science, i was thing about the debates that happened him again, after 9 11, with the increased use of data to predict terrorism and less reliance on people on the ground, and really knowing the communities they were observing. It sounds like there is a parallel situation going on here. Sarah there very much is. My fieldwork was taking place in the context as well of increased immigration enforcement, which local Law Enforcement is not typically responsible for or technically responsible for. There was basically just growing mistrust in communities, particularly communities of color, about what the police were doing and why they were collecting information on them and what they would do and how they would intervene in their lives. You know, i think most of the officers i talked to were aware that still the most important tool in their kit is people on the ground being willing to talk to them and share information with them. At the end of the day, thats largely how you populate these databases, for example. But the extent to which it may be eroding that trust, especially when you are rolling out new surveillance tools and technologies when surveillance civilians have not approved them, that can exacerbate a mistrust that already existed in many communities. Susan the debate were having over policing, people are increasingly looking to data about Police Officer operations rather than looking at citizens. To put some feedback into the system. Body cameras on Police Officers, we have seen a lot of those after the shooting of a number of black citizens this year. Longs that are computerized and analyzed so they can know how me stop they are having and that sort of thing. You say there is some resistance to the police being policed, in other words. And in fact, they are feeling there are inequities on that side of it and bringing their own equipment along, their own cell phones. Talk about that aspect, which is that the data is backfiring for some of the police in the process. Sarah this is a really interesting phenomenon that is occurring, that you mentioned, where one of the accordance as of big data collecting as they leave trails and they are susceptible to oversight. Increasingly, data on where the police go and what they are doing is being recorded and can be used largely being used within Police Departments right now, for managerial oversight, for accountability and that type of thing. But there are calls for the public or external agencies to have more access to this data to be able to hold Police Department accountable, like access to bodycam footage. I witnessed these fascinating practical strategies of resistance from officers themselves. Foot dragging, obfuscation, creating their own data that they have ownership of and think will tell a truer or more favorable story. For example, there are a bunch of automated recording systems that exist in police cars, so if you put someone in the backseat, you have a digital recording, that kind of thing. But some of the Police Officers alongs with, they have their own personal recorders because they did not trust the system. They did not trust it would exonerate them and prove they have not done anything wrong. Some of them were creating more data in order to protect themselves. Thers were just avoiding Data Collection mechanism altogether. I saw officers using cell phones to call each other or text each other because they did not want to go through dispatch because dispatch has a record and dispatch records can be audited, for example. Crude,mple that is more there was this antenna malfunction going on in one of the bureaus i was doing research and and it turns out the officers were just ripping the antenna off of their cars to prevent supervisors from hearing what they were saying in the field. Susan that suggest the officers dont trust the data being collected about them. Sarah there was a lot of mistrust, a lot of mistrust. Brownsfter michael shooting, a task force was established in the Obama Administration to look at policing. Lets listen to president obama talking about that task force. [video clip] to see the frustration in many communities of color and the feeling that our laws can be applied unevenly. After ferguson, i said we have to face these issues squarely. I convened a task force on community policing. In may, this task force, made up of Police Officers, activists and academics, proposed 59 recommendations. Everything from how we can make better use of data and technology to help train Police Officers. Dozens of Police Officers are sharing more data with the public, including on citations, stops and searches and shootings involving Law Enforcement. The Justice Department has begun pilot programs to help police use body cameras and collect data on the use of force. This fall, the department will award or the 106 2 million in grants to support Law Enforcement and Community Organizations working to improve policing. Susan what came of that effort . Was 2015, and as soon as trump was elected, he disbanded the task force. It does not exist anymore. Of the community members, grassroots organizers, academics, researchers and policymakers to a certain extent, that were interested in this, have continued to work, just without explicit federal government financial support. For example, you have this phenomenon of what some call stat activism. As obama mentioned, we did not have any sort of federal account of the number of People Killed by police each year, for example. Nonprofits have started aggregating that information in order to have the first step of shedding light or transparency on particular Police Practices in order to ultimately improve accountability in the administration of justice. Susan and again this year in the wake of george floyd and other killings in the United States, there has been another big effort on Police Reform. I want to show a clip from june 16 of this year, Georgia Republican congressman bob barr talking about what democrats and republicans can come together on in the 2020 version of Police Reform debate. [video clip] the issue ofon militarization and putting limits and scaling back the provision of military equipment to police, it is certainly something i think both sides could and should agree on. I think improving the moneys made available federally to support local police to increase , and superior training, is very important. I think providing money for much better data, keeping recordkeeping for use of extremely important. These are some of the areas. Training, data keeping, do initarization, included both republican proposals and democrat, that hopefully will provide aces for a bipartisan piece of legislation. Some of the more complex issues that i mentioned earlier, such as the onesizefitsall standard the democrats are proposing for use of force, i dont think are workable. Susan and in fact that legislation passed the house and had bipartisan votes on it, died in the senate. When the congressman was talking about data keeping, thats just one side of the equation we have been discussing. The records that are keeping track of the police and their movements. Is the legislation as it has been debated in washington dealing with the issue you raised, which is increasing amounts of surveillance by private systems being incorporated into police recordkeeping . Is anyone talking about that . Sarah largely, not yet. There are potentially, there is potentially a bill that currently has some bipartisan support that is essentially limiting the scope of predictive policing tools. And that by definition, because many of the predicting policing softwares are developed privately, and are privately provided, that would start to do that. But no, i think largely these atversations are missing this point, the increased private presence within public policing. In many ways, the private sector is not subject to the same type of transparency requirements. Sometimes it is falling outside the scope of these bipartisan efforts to increase fairness or accountability in policing. Susan from a constitutional perspective, it comes under the umbrella of the Fourth Amendment rights to unreasonable certain search and seizure. Has the Supreme Court looked at these questions . Sarah they are starting to come to this report. As you mention, the Fourth Amendment protects us from unreasonable search and seizure. One of the issues at hand is what constitutes a search, what is a search look like . That is different today in the digital age than it was 100 years ago. It used to be that the police cannot come into your home without cause, rummage through your drawers and that kind of thing. What is the digital equivalent of rummaging through drawers . Is it ok if i look up your name in a host of different databases . Is that a search . Policing is databased rather than immediately present. Sometimes it is difficult to understand or know the ways in which you are being surveilled. Some of the relevant cases that have come up carpenter would be the main one, that has to do site location information, whether Law Enforcement needs a warrant to access that kind of thing. Theres much more seemingly boring or benign cases. One of my favorites has to do with tire chalking. An attendantan mark on your tire where you were to prevent meter feeding . I think that also has to do with issues of locational privacy and that type of thing as well. Susan you tell us that society is at an Inflection Point and certainly we are, we are having big debates about the role of policing in our communities. You are urging us to think big about the opportunities and consequences, the promises and perils of Data Collection and deployment. What are you calling for and how should Society Debate these issues and in what forum . Sarah i think, particularly the events of this summer, George Floyds killing,