Transcripts For CSPAN3 Senate Hearing On Student Aid Application 20240712

Good morning to everyone. The committee on Health Education labor and pensions will please come to order. First, a few administrative matters. Weve gotten advice from the sergeant at arms health and human services, centers for disease control, individuals in the hearing room will be at least six feet apart. Theres no room for the public, therefore, but this is all streaming and there will be an unedited version of it that anyone can watch later. Our witnesses are participating by videoconference today and some senators are as well. Id like to Say Something about masks. Since were six feet apart we dont need to wear masks, although some may. Thats why my mask is off, although i have one and i wear it outside because as we were reminded yesterday its extremely important tool for stopping the spread of covid. Im grateful to the rules committee, sergeant of arms, the press gallery, the architect of the capitol, the Capitol Police and our staff, people, all their hard work in helping to keep us safe and to helping us do these conferences by video of which everyone seems to have become pretty expert. Senator murray and i will have an opening statement. Well then turn to our witnesses who we thank for being with us today. Each witness will have, if you would summarize your remarks in five minutes, that would leave more time for questions and answers. Each senator will have five minutes. Well try to keep the questions and answers for each senator at five minutes so everyone can have a chance to participate. Id like to begin today by thanking senator murray. She offered kind words for me at our hearing on tuesday. Let me Say Something about her. Foyer years ago she and i received the National Education associations friend of education award. It was the first time in 30 years they had awarded that award to a republican, but it was the second time in four years that they had award it had to senator murray. We would seem like an unlikely pair. Senator murray was a preschoolteacher and my mother had a kindergarten in our backyard where she had 25 3 and 4yearolds. And i was there for almost every year until i was 6. So senator murray and i found a lot of Common Ground in what you learn in preschool, which was the childhood lesson of play well together. An indispensable part of our success has been staff director evan shotts and my staff director as well as murray staff and the alexander staff who have also learned to work well together and made it easier for us to succeed. Our staff affectionately calls them the murrays. The laws we passed in this committee over the past six years when ive been chairman and shes been the Ranking Member wouldnt have happened without senator murray whose leadership and effectiveness help yield, for example, the every Student Succeeds act. President obama called that a christmas miracle. It affects 100,000 Public Schools and 50 million children. Or the 21st century cures act. Senator mcconnell called that, which passed in 2016, the most important law of the entire congress. Speeding up lifesaving cures for diseases from alzheimers to cancel to flu. Its been helpful in driving recertificate. For covid19. And then the opioid response crisis act of 2018 and the future act of last year when we began the process of simplifying the dreaded fafsa by law and permanently funded historically black colleges, a goal for a long time. And there have been many more including the perkins law and other important laws. Senator murray has been extraordinarily effective partly because shes a member of the democratic leadership. And she commands Great Respect on her side of the aisle. But she also knows how to create an environment in which bills can become law which requires bipartisan action. For example, when she and i first began the work on fixing no child left behind, she said that what we should do is write the bill together. Well, that hadnt been my plan. But i took her advice. Turned out to be good advice. And we got a result that not many people thought we would get. That bill had many complicated and contentious issues. There were crocodiles at every part of the pond. But senator murray helped create helped find creative ways to conquer those challenges and proceed to the finish. One of the most special times for me in the senate was on april 16, 2015, when we called the roll on the every student succeed act. And a committee, this committee, of so many different points of view, every single senator voted yes to recommend that bill to the senate. That type of bipartisan support never would have happened without patty murray. Weve had some disappointments. Weve certainly had some differences of opinion. But senator murrays always been willing to sit down and try to find a path forward even on the most contentious issues. I often say its hard to get to the United States senate. Its hard to stay here, and while youre here you might as well try to accomplish something good for the country. Senator murray is that kind of senator, the kind thats here to get something done, and americans are fortunate the result has been new laws to tackle the opioid crisis, spur new cures for diseases to make it easier to attend and afford college, and to help 50 million children and 100,000 Public Schools. I thank her for her friendship, for her partnership and her leadership on some of the most important issues of our time. And now lets turn our attention to one of those important issues and it is this. 20 Million Students and their families are in the middle of what has to be the strangest first semester of college in at least a century. Almost everything has changed for students except one thing, students still have to answer 108 questions on the dreaded fafsa form. The federal aid application for pell grants and Student Loans to help go to college. For years now ive carried around the fafsa as a prop to make the case for simplifying it, but its no joke especially this year. Many students are questioning their investment in a College Education at a time when many classes are only offering online courses. Many lowincome students who would benefit most economically from college long term are putting it off altogether. There was already an 8 drop in the number of black undergraduate students enrolled in summer sessions compared with last summers enrollment according to the National Student Clearing House recertificate center. The president of southwest Tennessee College in memphis, a mostly Minority Community college, told me a few years ago that he loses 1,500 students a semester because of the complexity of filling out the fafsa. Imagine how much less motivated anyone is to fill out those 108 fafsa questions this year. This is a form that is especially difficult for students who are homeless, who are in foster care, who are living with grandparents. Its hard for them to complete it. Homeless students have to prove theyre homeless. Foster care students may not have access to all the information required to complete the fafsa and students living with their grandparents often are still dependents on their parents and obtaining information from their parents may be difficult. These are the very students federal aid is meant to help and its exactly the kind of economy in which a College Education proves its have you. Its not that senator murray and i and others havent been trying to help fix the fafsa. When four of todays witnesses appeared before this committee almost seven years ago they universally agreed the fafsa was an obstacle to students attending college. They said we could award pell grants using just two simple variables family size and income. Senator bennett and i had the same reaction. Well, if theres that much agreement on how to make it easier for 20 million families to apply for federal aid, why dont we just do it . So senator bennett and i set out to turn the lengthy fafsa into a post card. The result was the fact act. Senator murray and i then worked with the Obama Administration to allow students to fill out the fafsa using their Tax Information from two years before they enroll in college. Instead of one. So they could file in the fall rather than having to wait until spring. The Trump Administration has created an app so students and families can file the fafsa on their cell phones or tablets. The future act, which senator murray and i sponsored, which became law last year, reduced the fafsa by up to 22 questions and eliminated the bureaucratic nightmare created by requiring students to give the federal government the same information twice and then to try to catch them in making a mistake. Stopping the federal government from asking for your Tax Information twice, once for the irs and once for the Education Department also helps prevent most applicants from being selected by the department of education for Income Verification caused by mistakes which many parents and counselors have told me is a bigger burden than filling out the 108 questions in the first place. So today we have a piece of legislation that would finish the job. It has broad bipartisan support, based on recommendations that four of todays witnesses gave us nearly seven years ago at a hearing before this committee. Here is what i mean when i say its time to finish the faf si. The Bipartisan Legislation proposed would reduce the total questions on the fafsa from 108 to no more than 33. Let me give you an example of the difference. This is 108 questions. This is the 33 question form that would make the difference if we could enact it this year. Thats the first thing it would do. Second, it would end the department of educations lengthy Financial Data verification process by removing unnecessary financial questions and instead using only the Financial Data that will come directly from the irs starting in 202324 school year. A change congress made in the future act which passed last year and which i just mentioned. It will continue to collect and provide states and colleges the information they need to determine state and institutional aid. The first legislation senator bennett and i worked on caused some problems for states and we worked with states and counselors to address those problems. Four, it would create a simple pell Grant Eligibility formula so that middle and High School Students and anyone interested in applying for aid would know how much pell grant money they have to go to college. Five, it does something else. Something senator murray has been working on for 20 years that makes it easier for students who are homeless, students in the foster system or students who are not in touch with their parents. Our bill allows these students to apply for aid as independent students, making the application process for them much simpler. An additional 420,000 students would qualify for pell grants each year if this bill passed. 1. 6 million would qualify to receive the maximum pell grant. The formula would account for the greatest needs of these families. In addition to senator murray much of this work has been done by senator bennett, senator jones, a member of this committee, and others who have helped with the work including senator booker senator burr, senator collins, senator king and former senator isaacson. During the last several years weve worked with various organizations to make sure our proposals dont cause any unexpected problems and as a result we have the support of the National Association for student aid administrators, the National College attainment network, the state Higher Education executive officers organization, National Association of grant aid programs, each of the regional Higher Education compacts. It makes no sense to make it this complicated to apply for federal aid for college. In tennessee former governor bill haslem created the tennessee promise and tennessee reconnect programs to provide two years of Free Community college to any tennessean without a degree, all they have to do is fill out the fafsa yet governor haslem told me the fafsa is the single biggest barrier to helping more tennesseeans take advantage of the opportunity for two free years of Higher Education. The right time to finish the job is now. They are under pressure, facing uncertain, homeless students, students in foster care and those living with grandparents. I hope we can pass Bipartisan Legislation. I will recognize senator murray for her opening statement. Mr. Chairman, first of all, thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today and, mr. Chairman, thank you for your very kind opening remarks about me. I appreciate it so much. And if im not mistaken this is your last scheduled education hearing as health chairman, so i will say today thank you for all your contributions to Higher Education. As i said earlier this week as a former governor, president of tennessee, this committee and our entire country, everyone has really benefited from your expertise and your experience. I will say what i said again tuesday. We all owe you a debt of gratitude and really appreciate all your work. Throughout our time together on health weve been able to permanently fund our hbcus, we updated our career and Technical Education programs and worked together with senator blunt to restore the pell grant just to name a few and just in Higher Education. Again, thank you for all of your contributions and of course today we are discussing an issue near and dear to your heart where you already have an impressive legacy and that is fafsas simplification. Im proud of the steps we have taken to improve the fafsa for students across the country from our work in 2015 with the Obama Administration to allow students to fill out the fafsa earlier and with more accurate Financial Information to our work last year on the future act which will streamline to help securely use the Tax Information already on file with the federal government. This is an issue we have repeatedly been able to find Common Ground and get things done. Mr. Chairman, your leadership on this issue has already made the fafsa much easier to navigate. Of course we both agree there is more work to be done. The ongoing pandemic is having a profound Economic Impact on families across the country and we are already seeing students are facing unprecedented struggles when it comes to paying for college. The fafsa must be a tool that expands excess not a barrier. And that means we node to build on the valuable work being done to make fafsa easier to navigate by making sure students experiencing homelessness, students in foster care and students whose families have low incomes can successfully get access to the pell grants available to them. Right now its students who need our help the most facing the biggest burden in getting Financial Aid. They dont often have the resources to navigate the College Financial aid process and they struggle without access to College Counselors or other support and many times without dependable internet or access to a computer. Instead of forcing them to jump through unnecessary hoops we need to do everything we can to make their lives easier like making the verification process where students have to confirm information for their schools less of a burden especially for families with low incomes. Determining pell grants based on federal Poverty Level so more students and families can know the amount of help they will receive and fully implementing the future act as soon as possible. And we cant stop there, by the way. We need to get serious about connecting these students to more than just pell grants. We need to make sure they dont miss out on state and federal support programs they may be eligible for that could help them afford food and housing and child care. The fafsa is just the beginning of the Financial Aid process we need to make easier for students and families. So im glad to keep working with you, mr. Chairman, to get this right but while simplifying fafsa is important i dont have to tell anyone here that the covid crisis is top of mind for students and families and educators. We just kicked off an Unprecedented School year. There have already been over 88,000 cases on College Campuses and 60 deaths and these outbreaks have led many colleges to abruptly switch to remote classes and force students to leave campus with little warning. Im hearing truly heartbreaking stories from College Students back in my home state of washington about the turmoil they are experiencing. So the senate needs to get to work negotiating a covid relief package to make sure colleges can deliver a quality education for their students and implement Public Health protocols and provide emergency Financial Aid to students who are struggling to afford food and housing and child care and technology they need to have during this crisis. I will keep pushing to start bipartisan negotiations on this relief package but for now i again want to thank our witnesses for being here and thank you to chairman alexander. I know we dont always agree but what i do know even when we disagree, weve always been able to list en to each other and fid things we can agree on. Thats what weve been able to do in the past, and i hope even in the few weeks you have remaining this year we can make muchneed prod degrees on the many critical challenges in front of us. Thank you again, mr. Chairman. Thank you so much, senator murray. Senator baker told me one time that the key to being an effective senator was to become an eloquent listener. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you do pretty well at that and i try to as well. I welcome our witnesses today. Our first witness is dr. Bridget terry long, the dean and professor of economics at the Harvard School of education. Dr. Long is an economist who focuses on the transition from high school to Higher Education and beyond. Her Research Examines factors such as academic affordability on student outcomes. She was appointed to the National Board for Education Sciences at the u. S. Department of education where she served as vice chair and then chair. She holds ph. D. And masters degree from the Harvard University department of economics as well as bachelors degree in economics from princeton. Our second witness is ms. Kim cook, executive director of the National College attainment network. Ms. Cook has worked in the field for her entire professional career including an undergraduate admissions in Financial Aid and Scholarship Program and as executive director of ncaa since 2008. She holds masters degree in Public Administration from pace university, bachelors degree from american university. Our third witness is ms. Rachelle feldman, associate provost of scholarships and Financial Aid at the university of North Carolina at chapel hill. She served as director of Financial Aid at berkeley. She developed and implemented a peerled Financial Wellness for undergraduate and graduate students and cofounded and coled the university of californias system wide Financial Aid leadership institute, uc berkeleys middle class access plan. She currently serves in leadership capacity on several Financial Aid advocacy boards. Judith scottclayton, professor of economics and education at columbia university, directs the Education Program at columbia. Dr. Scottclayton is also a Faculty Research associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research and a scholar at the Community Research center. She holds a bachelors degree from wellesley and ph. D. From harvard. Our final witness Kristin Hultquist of hcm strategies. Shes helped steward and direct two recent initiatives, the American Dream coalition and doing better for more students. Ms. Hultquist served as the u. S. Department of education Senior Adviser to the under secretary of education and the Program Director for education policy at the National Governors association. She holds a bachelors degree from california polytechnic State University, a masters from georgeto georgetown. I look forward to everyones testimony. We thank you for being here. Let me please remind you to summarize your testimony in five minutes if you will, and lets begin with dr. Long. Welcome. Good morning, everyone. Chairman alexander, senator murray and members of the committee, thousand for the opportunity to appear before you again today. My name is dr. Bridget terry long and as just noted i am the dean and professor of education and economics at the Harvard Graduate School of education. Over the last two decades i researched issues to post secondary opportunity in success and my testimony today aims to provide information on the challenges students face in the Financial Aid and highlight steps taken to reform fafsa and improve the federal Financial Aid system. To begin i must emphasize the importance of Financial Aid. There is a Long Research that proves Financial Aid not only has a positive impact on College Enrollment but also student persistence and degree completion. Today the importance of Financial Aid is only growing but a major impediment for many families is the complexity of the College Financial aid process. There continues to be a lack of information about the process of applying and receiving Financial Aid and the fafsa process is difficult to navigate and families are burdened with unnecessary questions that do little to nothing to further our estimates of their financial need. Theres also confusion aid, so as a result, students miss out on the support they are able to receive, which affects their decisions and limits College Access. Additionally, lost or reduced Financial Aid undermines student persistence and degree completion. Overall, having a cumbersome, overly complex Financial Aid system undermines the effectiveness f f our Financial Aid policies. Not only federal, but also state and institutional programs because the process and fa fsa are unnecessarily complicated gate keepers. Importantly, simplification is an important policy tool. Interventions that simplify t thefa fsa have had meaningful outcomes. My work with eric and lisa, we found that streamlining and providing stance with the faf srsa had a substantial positive impact on the likelihood aid application and enrolling in college and three years after that intervention, helping students with the fa fsa, we found that students were still persisting in college and persisting a at higher levels and had hire education attainment than their counterparts who did not have help. R in other words, they were able to succeed in college even though the barrier of the process would have kept them out of school i want to acknowledge there have been improvements to the fa fsa in e recent years and they have been amazing, but while these steps have been important, the efforts do not full lly address the needs of many students. In a study i complete d with erc and monica lee, in which we conducted a randomized control trial with 50,000 students in 2017, we found students still lack access, awareness of where does the Financial Aid eligibility, the education procedures and rules. This was after irs data retrieval tool so our intervention which focused on providing support and information, had a positive impact, which underscores the fact that without additional help and information, the current process is still a ba barrier to getting students aid. This is further emphasized with what we saw this spring. The rates during covid. As students lost access to their teachers, counselors and other nonprofit organizations that would normally help them, we saw some issues. So yes, additional simplification is necessary, but much more is needed just beyond reduce iing the number of questions. First, i would underscore the necessity to include the need analysis calculation that determines how much aid families should receive. We needed to reform it to more accurately reflect the financial situations of most College Students today who were not going full time and are financially dependent on their parents after immediately leaving high schools. We have working adults, parents, veterans, who are not served as well by the way that we calculate how much aid they should receive. Second, regarding the fa ff srfs second, regarding the fa ff sra must enable multiple pathways for families to finish the process and perhaps most importantly, now is the time when we need to bolster the aid that is available to students. According to a new poll, at least half of households have been affected by job loss. Without Government Intervention and support, we are unlikely to see investments in the skills necessary to take individuals, families in this country to the next stage of economic growth. Thank you. Thank you, dr. Long. Miss cook, welcome. Mr. Chairman and Ranking Members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to testify on time to finish fixing the fafsa. Im honored to do this testimony as a former pell grant recipient myself. Affiliates work in communities across the country to close gaps in post secondary attainment. As a nation, weve made progress over the past 20 years with more students pursuing higher edge kax, we find attainment gaps by 20 Percentage Points persist by race and income. Much of the gap is fueled by an affordability challenge, with research finding that only 25 of public fouryear institutions are affordable to even those students who work hard to gather all of the federal and state aid a for which they are eligible. The bare minimum to afford college. Equity and lack of affordability exacerbated by Family Income losses due to covid make todays con vversation about fafsa as t key to access that federal aid critical. The High School Class of 2018 left nearly 22. 6 billion on the table by not completing the faf fafsa. Many students miss out because the form is complicated and often requires expert assistance to complete. Weve improved it with prior year income to allow students to file the application to better align with their Decision Making timeline and the mobile app. In the year following those change, we saw a 9 increase for High School Seniors and reversed a fouryear decline in overall applications. Prior year also increased the percentage of fafsa filers who were pell eligible. Cle clearly, simplification matters. The december passage of the future act will reduce up to 22 questions on the fafsa by allowing for data sharing from the u. S. Department of education and Internal Revenue service. While we celebrate the passage of this, the its a more complicated road to implementation which is currently not expected until the 23, 24 fafsa. Three key steps. Remove unnecessary questions. Simplify the pell Grant Eligibility formula including fast tracking eligibility for students receiving means testing benefits and streamline v verification. Expand on these in my testimony and would be happy to discuss more in the question and answer period. First, weve long advocated to reunnecessary questions. A 25 of the questions are answered by less than 1 of applicants. In our 2017 research, we developed a streamlined fafsa with fewer questions. We found it improved completion time by 3 and see error rate by 56 . Second, the pell grant. The corner stone of federal student aid for e low mccaincom studen student. It ties gross income and family size to federal Poverty Levels. We support a fast track to full pell Grant Eligibility to those receiving means tested benefits such as the snap program. The its important to double it. At its peak in 75, 76, it covered more than three quarts of the cost of attendance for a public fouryear university. Today, it covers less than 34 . It calls for a pell grant that covers 50 of attendance for public fouryear universities. Our third and final component is to target and decrease verification selection rates. The students fafsa is not complete or actionable until this audit like process is resolved, often causing missed deadlines and opportunities for first come first serve state and institutional aid. Earlier this year, we worked with the office of federal student aid data to find that slight sli more than 70 of students who completed verification experienced no change in their pell grant award and that 93 of applicants retained that award after verification. These data rates raised questions about the cost and benefits of verification and how policy limitations could knock down this barrier. In closing, we thank you for having this important discussion today. Mr. Chairman, as you retire from the senate, please let me take this opportunity to thank you for being a tireless champion for a fafsa simplificatiosimpli. Thank you very much for your testimony and nice comments. Mr. Feldman, welcome. Thank you, thank you, chairman alexander and Ranking Members of the community for this opportunity to speak about simplifying the aid process. As a person on the campus, i see every day how important this is. At carolina, were a public flag schiff unit thhip University Th itself on being public, anyone who earns their a admission through scholarship and hard work. More than 10 of undergraduates participate in our program, a no loans promise for low income students. A quart of grad jauts receive pell grants and half receive a need base d aid. Carolina provides significant funding to make College Affordable to every student across the income spectrum. Therefore, we much stretch our precious dollar where were needed most. That means we need a fafsa that works for lowest income students but also middle income and also for those seeking federal loans to finance their education. On the campus, i see firsthand how students and families get disturbed by the complexities of the process. In dift times like this pandemic, i really see the worry and frustration families have as they try to make it through all their paperwork. As you can imagine, our immediamedia students were among the hardest hit as they and their family members lost jobs, had to close Small Businesses and students were uncertain of where to li and how to take their courses remotely. We want to be there to answer their questions and to provide them help and support. Something we would have more time to do if we didnt have to explain a complicated application or follow up on missing tax transcripts. I applaud the senates efforts to make sure students can can more easily make it through the process and concentrate on their education. As an aid office, we want three things. An aid application thats easy for students to complete. A precise and meaningful measure of financial need and to the empower to serve individual students in unique situations. With the future act and further reform, we can get there. The director of irs information is key. It means the fafsa wont need to ask questions about things we know. That will make more students likely to complete the process and attend cleollege and we cane assured of the quality of the data were receiving. And frankly a burden for schools as well. I hope you will enact in fact additional legislation that will leverage the expanded irs day a ta in the future act to further streamline the process. While schools like mine could use that expanded trax information now for awarding our own funds, its value could be multiplied. I have several specific thoughts on how this could make things easier and more equitable, which i outline in my recent testimony and would be happy to comment on. Also in my written testimony, i have many of the ideas and the simplification act, particularly removing questions that are not related to finances and making the fafsa easier for those in simple situations without sacrificing information for people in complex situations. I would love to see a fafsa that not only helps us distribute pell, but also contains enough information to eliminate any need for supplemental forms from states or schools. We also need to make sure it makes sense for all families, including those in the nontraditional situations many of my colleagues have mentioned. Aid can be confusing beyond the fafsa. We need time to dig into each students situation and to address professional judgment to address unique challenges, otherwise the formulas that work for many may harm the few. The pandemic has proven this point. Without the flexibility to adjust aid for job losses and extra expenses, many student would have dropped out, but families face hardships all the time, not just during pandemics, but we want to hem them all. I hope that once the future act and further legislation helps us simplify the fafsa, we can all spend less time navigating forms, fixing errors and submitting and reviewing tax forms for verification. Instead, i hope students and families have more time for learning and living and i hope aid officers have more time to council family, encourage financial literacy, help students. Our goal should be to help students not only with access, but to successful graduation. Once again, let me thank you for the steps we have taken with the future act and the excellent proposals to make things easier and simple r for all families. As an aid officer, i hope it will create a simple but meaningful process that allows professionals like me to concentrate on helping students and making their dream of obtain a i aing a College Degree come true. Thank you very much. Thank you, miss feldman. Dr. Scottclayton. Welcome. Thank you, chairman alexander. Ranking member and members of the committee. It is a true honor to be here in front of you again this time virtually. Obviously, a lot has changed since we first testified in 2013 and especially during these past six months. So the first thing id like to address is why fafsa pub licatin Still Matters in the context of Everything Else going on right now. To put it simply, fafsa simplification Still Matters because College Access Still Matters and perhaps now more so than ever. We know that the burdens of this pandemic to unemployment to food and housing insecurity to illness and death are falling hardest on low income families and communities of color. In addition, low income College Students may lack adequate Computer Technology and wifi to support online classes. And the Public Institutions that they are most likely to attend are facing drastic cuts in state and local funding. With the full recovery not expected for perhaps a decade, much is uncertain about the future. But the one thing that we can count on is that without large and sustained federal efforts to support low income students at all levels of education, the educational inequality is likely to explode in the coming years and if we dont take every step that we can to address this now, well be addressing the fallout from generations. When it comes to inequality and College Access, fixing the fafsa can be a meaningful part of the solution. We know from decades of Rigorous Research that when students get Financial Aid, it increases enrollment, helps students graduate and can lead to higher earnings and higher rates after college. Unfortunately, as my collaborator and i wrote when he first began study iing this iss, the federal student aid programs hide their substantial benefits behind a tangled thicket of bureaucracy embodied in the application process. For many families, filling out a fafsa is more complicated than an income tax form. Too many eligible students have never heard of it and have no idea it could provide them with up to over 38,000 in pell grant support ore the course of their degree. Others try to file but get stuck along the way including in the cumbersome verification process. Some dont realize they have to reapply every year and still, others are shut out due to the fafsas unnecessary question number 23 about prior drug convictions, like a woman i met this month when we were on a panel together speaking about College Access to members of the Oklahoma House of representatives. This complexity undermines our investment in student aid by making it hard to reach the students who need it most. This is not just speculation as dr. Long just talked about. One of the studies she mentioned that she was a coauthor on showed that just helping families fill out the form increased College Enrollment by eight Percentage Points. Thats huge. Yet, millions of students fail to file losing out on billions of dollars annually. And right now during the pandemic, the fafsa is just one more frustration for students an families to navigate when so much of their energy is consumed just trying to survive and most frustrating of all is that it does not have to be this way. Most questions are not even necessary to accurately target federal student aid. Simulations show that pell eligibililility can be predicte using a few key items like income and family size. We could get rid of what we think of as the fafsa completely. Heres what it would look like. First, base pell grants on a limited number of elements already available from irs so that no separate financial application would be needed. Second, we can continue to provide an index of eligibility that states and institutions can use for their own purposes. Third, fix eligibility for several years so that students can plan a multiyear course of study without needing to reapply. Summarize eligibility by income in a simple look up table and finally, use irs information to proactively communicate with students and their families about likely pell eligibility. Since 2013, substantial progress has been famade for simplificatn thanks to the hard work of members of this committee. The future act will reduce the hassle further. But concerningly, applications are down since the committee took up this issue in 2013 and theyre down the most among low income students and independent students. Of course, this isnt obl action we need, but right now, we cant afford not to take every opportunity that we have to help low income students who need our support now more than ever. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Our final witness is miss hu hultquist. Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. Im kristen hultquist and i come before you as a lifelong Higher Education analyst, a senior advise ir in the department of education and interest in the support of the simplification 525,600 minutes see iing the artist performing sentence seasons o love in rent. They ask, how do you measure a year . I ask, how do you measure the time it takes to ko ales is voices of a fafsa simplification act . Its been 24 years since president clinton had the budget of prior year tax returns. 43062 days since margaret spelling when rolling out the bush administrations call for simplification. 68,10 2 hours since the New York Times covered the release of our American Dream 2. 0 report on simplifying student aid. This is a report signed by civil rights leaders, a sitting governor, the president of the nations largest system. The former head of a congressional budget office. Employers and miss cook. 3. 6 million minutes since we four sat before you to demonstrate our shared conviction that fewer questions asked of students could yield approximately the same determination of need. States agree we must finish fixing the fafsa now. Tennessees experience shows us why they do. Tennessee has implemented multiple layers of staffing and infrastructure to achieve its best in the nation fa fsa best in the nation status. Every counselor gets a kit. This leadsfafsa frenzy day across the state. No joke, its a real thing. Final ly, students receive additional remibders urging them to complete their form and connecting them to call centers for support. Institutions agree we must fix the fafsa now. Nasa supports this bill. I see the quons quenss of not having a simplify ied Needs Analysis for pell. In my role of a trustee. Metro State University denver. We are the opportunity generator in colorado. Blacks and latinos comprise half of our student body. Onethird of our full time students qualify for the maximum pell grant. The hard work of Racial Justice on our campus needs a simplified format and for denvers 130,000 unemployed with a pell look up table, msu denver can partner with our states unemployment and Insurance Program to reach these adults that need rescaling and upscaling. Advocates for students get around other changes in the fafsa simplification. As vice chair, i join the voices of nearly 40 national faith, justi justice reform, business, corrections and Higher Education organizationings calling for removal of question 23. Prohibiting students from prior drug related offense from getting aid. I sit before you just as much to remind you of the consensus as a former department of education adviser. One who knows that delaying now to adopt a fafsa act is wasteful and inefficient. Changes in the fafsa dont happen quickly because of back end systems, but we have the opportunity to do a full renovation. Future fafsa filers will authorize the irs to share data and then no additional Financial Information will be needed. My mom raised me to never quit a raise nine tenths from finishing. A former 400 meter hurdler, i know that is one hurdle. As a first generation pell graduate, as a mother of a daughter who just started college this fall, as the financial supporter of corner stone christian school, where every one of our students will be first gen and needs us to finish the job we started 24 years ago, i implore you, dont quit now. We have 53 questions, one hurdle to go, to finish this race. We can and must measure the impact of consensus achieved in more than time elapsed. Millions more americans will need Financial Aid if you pass now the act. Thank you. I welcome your questions. Well, thank you very much to our witnesses. Compelling testimony and i will now bin a begin a series of questions from senators mention ing the numbers takes me back seven years to the testimony when four of witnesses who were here todwhen i asked them, i sa could you each write us a letter about what we need to do to simplify it. We all agree so they wrote us one letter. That was seven years ago. It sounds like today, it soseeme urgent to do it now. Sometimes in the senate, we get in the position of saying lets wait until we agree on everything to do anything. This is a very significant thing were talking about ft just to go back to where i started. This is the fafsa. This is 108 questions that in the middle of the pandemic, 20 million families are expected to fill out in order to get their Free Education in tennessee for two years or any pell grant or any student loan. 20 million families filling it out every year and what our witnesses have told us is that there are 53 questions on that list that we dont need. And really not any disagreement about that. I guess theres someone somewhere who disagrees about that, but i havent met them. I rarely have any issue about which theres much more compelling agreement than this. So this would be the new fa fsa minus 53 questions that our witnesses say is unnecessary. Now let me talk about a technical matter, the law senator murray and i introduced last year that took the 22 questions one click, the student and fam can ask the irs that question for them. Thats a big step forward. The 53 are in addition to that. But it will take a while to implement the law we pass aed last year, were told it may be the year 23, 24. Well my question and let me ask miss hultquist and miss cook to start with this question. Wouldnt it make sense to go ahead and pass this legislation, removing the 53 questions, so that it can be implemented at the same time the law we passed last year is so that the new simplified form could be introduced all at once to 20 million families in the same year, 23, 24. How much difference would that make, miss hultquist . Thank you, mr. Chairman. I wanted to start by echoing senator murrays come documentation of you. We owe you a ton of gratitude. From a student per speck tiff, no doubt. The act finishes the job and only asks what we need and no more r for states and institutions. We are not looking up or day a ta on that, so the current law uses data from tax form that is no longer exist. The tax cuts got rid of the 1040 so currently, the department of education is using schedule one as a proxy for these, but it doesnt recognize it. So you have one model, not talk ing to the old model. Lets clean up the legislation so that our formula for student affordable in this. Wouldnt it make since to pass this this year so it could be implemented at the same time of the future act . Mr. Chairman, were fortunate to help serve and advise on implementation of the act and have seen that the sausage making process is difficult. I would say the extent that we can make these sweeping changes once, im sure that would be helpful and i would be hopeful that we would be able to integrate them all. Dr. Scottclayton, do you have anything to add . I agree with prior statements. I absolutely think get it done once to make it efficient. My time is up. Senator murray. You see how its just one part of a complicated Financial Aid and enrollment process. Unfortunately, families face a lot of barriers in getting access to the support they need for upward Higher Education and your on campus has seen the impact of trying to make this process work during a pandemic. As a former pell grant recipient myself, i know how forms and eligibility rules create headaches for families and unfortunately, these barriers have only gotten worse with students and families now facing more rules, more forms to get into college, get Financial Aid. Besides complete iing the form, what are the biggest hurdles students face in getting access to the Financial Aid they need . Thank you, senator murray. I think weve mentioned several in particular the verification proce process, in fact, students are verified on their Financial Aid application at much high er rats than we audit people on their tax return, which is a little confusing. If i can be frank, students just need more money. Higher pell grants and higher thresholds for that pell grant and maybe this decoupling of the pell Grant Eligibility from our complicated eoc formula gives us a chance to address that issue and we need to make sure as i said earlier, that whatever we do to simplify those formulas for the index isnt so simple that schools like ours decide that students need to fill out the ccs profile or other forms, which are even more complicated than the fafsa today. Thank you. You know, while its critical we know the form is just the front end of the process that students go through to get the help they need. Theres a lot more we can do to make sure our students have the support they need for food and housing and child care and its the economic devastation of this pandemic is continuing, many students and families, particularly students and families of color, are now experiencing unemployment and are really struggling to make ends meet. And those financial pressures threaten to xas e er bait disparities so, to any witnesses who would like to answer, let me start with miss cook then miss feldman. How can the department of education states and colleges use the fafsa and Financial Aid process to connect students to other programs like snap or medicaid and help make sure they can meet their basic needs while going to school . Senator, our experience is that many of our students have overlapping eligibility for pell grant, for snap, for tanif, for example, we see opportunity, perhaps counseling to deflag those students and share those eligibility they may not be aware of. I also think we have promise in the proposed simplified pell Grant Eligibility index since that is tied to federal Poverty Level. It could give us a chance the crosswalk other means tested benefits programs that are tied to Poverty Level. Good. Miss feldman. Thank you, i agree with the statements of miss cook. Especially about the federal Poverty Level. I also believe that we need to make sure whatever measures we use need to accommodate nontraditional situations, such as students who live with their parents, the students who arent sure which parents they should be putting on the form. And independent students returning to school, which make up more and more of our populations. Okay, i just have a minute left, but i wanted to ask dr. Long and dr. Scottclayton. Youve both written about the benefits of predictability for Financial Aid. What should we do as policymakers do to make sure students know their options, including those offered by Financial Aid and m administrators. Should they need it adjusted because of Financial Hardship because of the pandemic and other conditions . Thank you, senator murray. Just to say we need to move out of these acronyms that we use like eoc. Other colleges and universities have moved just to income thresholds that families understand and parents understand much better. I think this also builds on your previous question, will we know about other aid programs and using crosswalks between them. If you were already qualifying for food stamps, there are other kinds of assistance. Communicating that to students, saying if you were qualifying for Financial Aid, to having th to go back. Weve seen this work in the past very effectively and inkrecreas access to support. Thank you. Im out of time and maybe some of the others can give me a written response, that would be great. Thank you. Thank you, senator murray. Senator cassidy. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, its such a no brainer. Youve convince d me over the last four or five years weve worked together as to the wisdom of this and some of these witnesses who we heard before. My wifes a general surgeon and she was filling out fafsa and threw her hands up in the air. I cant do this. Think if your first language isnt english. How would you accomplish it . With that said, im going to open up speaking about something which is not directly on the point, but at least id like to make the point. Mr. Hultquist, its not only important that somebody be able to access the financial means to go, but i personally think its important they have the student level ta data when you look in mirror, what is someone who looks like you going to do in this curriculum at this university. We have a bill that would request this to be published so that someone can can say i look like this. What am i going to do in this curriculum at this school. Koodo you have any comments on that . Youre on mute. Thank you for the tip and your question and leadership and sponsoring with senator warren, the College Transparency act. Current currently, students must make choices about whether to, where to attend college, what to study or how to pay for it based on woefully inadequate information. This is because our National Data systems are incomplete, dupe. The one who proposed would fix this. It provides students with quality information and Program Level outcomes. It would also give policymakers Better Options to make decisions. Its very critical at a time like this when resources are scarce. Thank you very much. And frank ly, im going to ask you to be called as a witness if we ever have a hearing on it, so thank you. Miss feldman. Your testimony stated that you hope aid administrators, such as the able thety to use professional judgment to reduce a pell grant if the agi does not appear to reflect the students true ability to pay. Can you elaborate on that . Were trying to get help to people and sometimes, just gets tied in a knot. I think you want to untie it. Absolutely. Certainly, our goal is to make things as simple and straightforward as possible for the majority of families, but i can tell you a story about a family that i had a few years ago. The student applied for aid, they were selected for verification. The mothers adi was 20,000. 4,000 from earned work and 16,000 from interest income. As we dug in, that woman was a lawyer who owned her on firm and worked out of her home and her income was actually much closer to 300,000 but she had a will the of paper write offs as she depreciated her home, car, and wrote off a lot of other things as her personal expenses. It feels like its not a good use of taxpayer money to give that student a full pell grant when there are so many rather than those who are able to quite legally use the tax system to write down their income with these non financial paper expenses that dont really affect their true ability to pay. I think using that would be rare, but in some cases, particularly for institutional and state aid, it can be very important. One of the things we have to push back on is the lack of administrator accountability, so thank you for treating the taxpayers money like its your own. One more question. Tell me, unc. How has pandemic affected students ability to pay those who may have lost jobs, et cetera . Can you just comment on that . Yeah. Its really been devastating. With the switch to remote learning, many needed help just getting hooked up. Our resources are dwindling and i worry what well do next year. Their parents have lost jobs. They cant find part time work and theyre so uncertain about the future. We would really appreciate some support. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, i yield. Thank you, senator cassidy. Senator casey. Mr. Chairman, thanks very much. I wanted to start by saying that think i speak for a lot of members of the committee when i say that most of us would ink p incorporate by reference what you and senator murray said about each other. So we want that on the record. Let me start with the sir we face with the worst Public Health crisis in a century, the covid19 pandemic. That pandemic we know has creating all kinds of disruptions and in the education system, those disruptions range from child care through post secondary education and so many other disruptions in between. We know that post secondary education will be a critical component to any economic recovery and unfortunately for many students, the pandemic has not only created financial strain, but it has xexacerbated other barriers to post secondary education such as access to technology, access to transportation and even access to affordable high quality child care. We heard testimony that only 41 of students complete the form missing out on billions in grants alone institutionally each year. So to ensure that any student with financial need is able to obtain assistance, its clear what we must make the form and verification process simpler. I think we all agree on that. Without state and local fund in, post secondary access and success will unfortunately remain out of reach for many americans. Many counselors had to cancel training events and Many Organizations transitioned to virtual operations. Supporting students solely online or by phone as they navigate these complex forms is indeed challenging. And for many low income and rural students, the lack of access to technology and high Speed Internet can make it nearly impossible. According to the pew research center, 30 of households with School Age Children lack reliable income at home. My question is this. What can the department of education ainstitutions of highr education do to better support these students in applying for Financial Aid without the in person assistance . Thank you, r senator. That is a challenging question. In North Carolina, we are a state that has broad band deserts in our Rural Counties in places. We, in fact, as we moved to remote insfrux, gave students sup plements to try to purchase broad band, but in some cases, students chose to stay and live in an apartment in chapel hill because nono matter how much money we threw at them, they couldnt be successful. Students have been resilient at using zoom or this webex product were using now and weve been able to help them much more carefully and strongly than we thought. To enhance access to technology in their schools or homes or both, it would be key to them successfully transition iing to college this coming year. Just want to ask any other member of the panel if they want to comment. Thank you, senator, for that question. I would say we want students and families to be focusing their time on their academic preparation and we know they have to focus now on many other needs. The role that we can do to push out information so for families who have established that theyre struggling and that theyre poor, why make them go through the form . Why are we not doing outreach . These recommendations to base off of Poverty Levels, we can be more proactive in meeting families where they are in their needs. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator casey. Senator muhr krkowski. Okay, you can hear me and see me, right . I can hear you, i cant see you. We can see you. Thank you. Thank you to those who have gathered to talk about these important issues for our students and what we can do to ease the process for them. Serl veral of you have noted th importance of decoupling the pell grant need analysis from federal student loan to ensure that our middle schoolers or High School Students will know that they got the money then to go into college. We recognize though that the fafsa simplification act does not provide a promise that students will be eligible for a pell grant because we know that circumstances can change. Familys incomes may change and theres been that discussion this morning. The early awareness chart idea, i assume is intended to let the students know that college may be an option if the income levels stay the same, but im, im afraid that that message may get lost there. Im concerned that families may believe that a chart showing a certain Family Income and family size equals a certain pell grant amount and a that that that is a promise. Thats a guarantee. So how can the simplification act avoid that misunderstanding . Have we thought through how we ensure in a clear way, that this is, this is conditioned on circumstances remaining the same . Is this a fair concern that you have . And a i throw that out to any member of the panel who may wish to speak to it. Ill speak to that. Thank you, senator. I do think that is a little bit of a concern, but you sort of have to weigh the relative concerns here and right now, i think that the far larger concern is that students dont know or are prepayiring for college because they think they wont qualify. If we have students that are preparing and doing everything they can to get ready for college and at the en, they get a surprise in the other direction, thats a concern but i think there are smo other ways to help those students. For the longterm, i think the ideal solution there is to think about taking that eligibility and basing it on you know, a familys income as theyre preparing for college. So when it can really be a promise when they quet get to that point, they know. Its more like a savings account for a baby bond sort of idea where by the time they get there, they know exactly what they have in the bank. And i think that fafsa simplification is a step that will move us in that drek direction. So were not quite there yet, but were pllay ining the groun work. I think this is a huge step. I think this would be a huge step, the legislation on the agenda today. I think it would be a major step and like i said, im way more worried about students not preparing for college because they think they wont qualify and we know theres a lot of persisten persistence. We saw that in the conversation about the prior year switch. Theres lot of persistence in eligibility over time. So thats not the biggest of my concerns right now and i think it will open the door to even greater reforms in the future. Anybody else want to speak to that quickly . Ive got one more question. If i could interject, i have research on this area a. When we were focusing on 28,000 students in ohio and North Carolina, we ended up having a small experiment where we shared with our younger siblings and with the sophomores and freshman, the kind of close calls were talking about now. Its an estimate of Financial Aid. What we actually found is that families became interfit in m t meeting with their guidance counselors, the nonprofits that were able, to start a conversation. It grabbed their attention so they were coming up to get the advising. Not just about Financial Aid, but also about College Choice and program of study. Which is also a very important part of the process. So, we really interpret it as start iing the conversation, whh is critical. Given all the mismag out there thats theres no aid. Appreciate that. Switch to a question that came from the university of alaska and this relates to the need for changes in the Income Verification process from their perspective, this verification process has been, they described it almost as a puric victory. Its captured a minimum amount of fraud and abuse. She likeneded it to getting audited by the irs every year and finding nothing every time. Its good that you find nothing, but it puts applicants through quite a process for what they feel is very small benefit to the departments federal student aid office. It allowed for applicants to submit a signed copy of their 1040. It was very, very helpful for previous guidance that had required a transcript. That was very burdensome for many of my constituents. Particular ly those that come from low income households. So we saw previously that these applicants were more likely to be selected for verification, which led to less completed fafsa applications. The guidance hasnt been extended yet for Academic Year 21, 22. I guess the quick question and hopefully quick answer is whether or not a permanent change in required documentation is necessary in your view. Senator, ill take that. Yes, so quick answer, yes. Permanent change to allow flexibility in the ways that students meet verification is a temporary fix. A longer the term fix is to use the data weve learned about this. Many times audited, few times changed, to really better target and lesson and programs get to the point where we can eliminate this back end process. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator murkowski. Senator warren. Thank you, mr. Chairman. This is our Fourth Annual hearing simplifying student aid applications and by now, i think all of us agree that this is a good idea. But four hearings since the republicans took control of the Senate Nearly six years ago, we have not had one single hearing in this committee on the student debt crisis. Instead of spending more time on how to make it easier for students to borrow more money, i think we ought to focus on how to deal with the 1. 6 trillion in debt that is crushing millions of people. And i think thats particularly urgent because Student Loan Debt is disproportionately a serious problem for black and brown communities. Especially as the covid19 pandemic and economic crisis also disproportionately hits the same communities. I believe its time to explore Bold Solutions like broad student debt cancellation. Congress should do that, but even if they dont cancel Student Loan Debt, the president and secretary of education could do that right now. So, dr. Scottclayton, just how bad is the student debt crisis for black and brown families . Its really shockingly bad. Even prior to the pandemic. Nearly half of black student loan borrowers would experience a student loan default within 12 years of college entry. Thats compared to about a third of hispanic and one in five of white student borrowers. A black College Graduate with a bachelors degree is more likely to experience a default. And this might get worse due to the pandemic. And what are the consequenceses of the crisis for students still in school . Does debt have an impact on their completion . Thank you, senator warren, for highlighting this issue. Yes, its affecting not only attainment, but the quality of experiences. The Research Shows lower gpas, lower academic engagement. Taking advantage of resources. Reduction in course load. Dr. Scottclayton, i know you agree that simplify iing the fo is a good idea, but do you agree that student debt cancellation is an effective solution to the crisis facing borrows right now . I do agree given the situation right now. We need to talk about student debt cancellation to address the crisis in Student Loans. So, thank you. I appreciate that. I request unanimous consent to submit into the hearing record a letter from the Harvard Law School project on predatory student lending. It details the Legal Authority of the secretary of education to cancel Student Loans without congressional action. Millions of people are getting crushed by Student Loan Debt and thats why i have a bill to broadly cancel Student Loan Debt as well. Mr. Chairman. Do i have permission to enter this into the record . So ordered, senator warren. Thank you. Even if congress doesnt act, leader schumer and i introduced an order this morning calling on President Trump and senator devos to use the voauthority thats been given to them to cancel Student Loan Debt now. It is time to get this done. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator warren. Senator scott. Well go to senator jones. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and let me also echo what senator casey said. I so very much appreciate the comments that you have made about senator murray and senator murrays comments about you. And for those that may think that that is, that we have a cynical washington, d. C. , i can assure folks that heard those comments that they are heartfelt and as someone who has worked with both of you in a really close way, particularly on this issue with you, senator alexander, they are heartfelt and appreciated and thats why its been such a joy for me to work on this committee over the last two and a half years. So i really appreciate everything that has been commented on today and you know, work together. I would have to say senator alexander, i appreciate especially the work we have been doing together on this really important issue. In alabama, there are so many kids that just walk away from fafsa. I think in 2018, i saw statistics that close to 50 of our High School Seniors just walk away from a fafsa, leaving a will the of grant money on the table, scholarship, i mean money for loans, but grant money and scholarships on the table. So, one of the issues that weve seen with the implementation of the bill that we passed for the futures act, it seems to be that the department of education is going to be pretty slow to implement this. Im not sure who is best to answer this but im trying to figure out what youre hearing about why it is going to take so long. And let me say i completely agree with senator alexander that if we could get our bill passed to do a complete overall and get them implemented at the same time, thats the ideal solution. Given this pandemic, given the end of this congress. Its going to be tough to get that done so im assuming we may end this congress simply with what we got, which was the futures act. Why is it taking so long and what can we do, especially in congress, to speed that up so it could be ready earlier . Anybody, ill open it up to anybody that might want to answer that. Senator, ill kick off here. What we are hearing is that there are complications in Data Security and in use of federal Tax Information, so concerns about how that makes is and can be shared between the shared between the departments and then with filers and even with family members who are part of an application. What congress can do is clarify its intentions of how that information can and should be used and help us certainly respect and care for data that we understand is sensitive. But to use it wisely. Would anybody else like to share anything that theyve heard or just simply ask how important would it be for congress to do whatever is necessary to get that implemented earlier if at all possible . Senator, thank you. This is rachel. As a person at a school, we would certainly love to see the future act and any further simplification implemented as soon as possible. The longer it takes, the longer we have to help people through difficult forms and the more risk we have that students dont complete the process, especially during this time of pandemic and extra needs. So we appreciate that support. Its hard to unction hderstand the sausage making works but certainly, the sooner the better. I would just add to emphasize a sense of confusion about why it does need to take so long and that some pressure may be necessary to see that along because i think its a huge frustration to go through all of the work of getting that legislation and then not have the urgency to get it implemented as soon as possible. Thank you, all. A lot of my questions have been answered. Were going to continue to work on this. It is something that is really important to all of these states. I may, following this hearing, get with senator murray and senator alexander to see what we can do to try to push that date up somehow, some way. Senator collins and i got a bill passed recently that would provide some extra security for the irs by creating a voluntary program for a pin number for the irs that would create an extra level of security. Maybe we could work to implement that somehow through this so we could give all parents and all those affected with this the level of comfort they need for the security. In this day and age, the United States government ought to be able to keep that information secure. Thank you for the work on this issue. Thank you for including me on this work and on this issue. I appreciate that. Ive enjoyed it very much. Thanks for your leadership and sponsorship both on the future act and on this legislation reducing 53 questions from the fasfa. Senator rosen . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Ranking member, thank you to all of the witnesses for being there for our students, educating them and carrying about them. And, mr. Chairman, i want to thank you for your leadership on this committee and for welcoming me here to both of them. We appreciate that and were going to miss your guidance. I just want to talk a little bit about whats going on in nevada. With so many students in nevada, across our country are facing financial pressures due to the pandemic, covid19. Were moving barriers, increasing access to needsbased programs. Its just critical. Unfortunately lowincome students, first generation students, theyve faced obstacles when applying for student aid. The number of students completing fasfa has decreased for pell eligible students with the greatest decreases from coming from families from incomes of 25,000 or less. The students with the greatest barriers are the students most likely to be required to complete an Income Verification which results in many eligible students missing out on that very important Financial Aid they need to reach their goals. And so what modifications to the family Income Verification process can be made, particularly to address that the lowincome students facing a changing education and financial landscape . Thank you very much, senator rosen. I think the first thing to ask is why we verify so many families in the first place. The rate of verification has hovered around 30 . These are much higher rates than we see on income tax verification which are in the Single Digits and we have not shown that its necessary or effective as most of the families we verify show little to no change in their ultimate eligibility. Although many fail to complete it because it is difficult to obtain the forms they need. In addition, i think that research as my colleagues have mentioned, has shown that verifying the lowest income families, those with needstested benefits or who qualify for expected family contribution is particularly ineffective and yet at schools we continue to see those students selected over and over again. And those are the students who often have the most difficulty getting the forms they need to complete the process. So if i could make two recommendations, they would be very simple. Well, three. One, lets implement the futures act so we dont have to ask them questions because we know already from their tax forms what their income is. Lets really look at the formula and select fewer people, and three, lets not concentrate on the lowest income families, but more on the Business Owners where we see change when we do verification. Thank y thank you. I want to ask a question about our dreamers. Like you said, a lot of reasons people dont fill out fasfa, a lot of barriers and confusion. A lot of our veterans dont realize they might be able to get fasfa or get other student aid in addition to their gi benefits. We have a lot of Daca Recipients out there. We provide flexibility to determine how to distribute the funding. And so we have to be sure that we get it out there. Im going to ask you as director of scholarships and student aid, how do you think we should be sure that our student debts, our Daca Recipients, how can we be sure that they understand theyre eligibility, particular those student debts, that they have more in addition to the gi. What recommendation do you have for dreamers and student debt . Its a little bit of a complicated question since particularly dreamers have different eligibility depending what state they live in. I think it would be easier for everyone if we had some consistent eligibility for students who have been in the country since they were very small. For veterans, i would really like to see more outreach and more understanding for them that their Veterans Benefits often do not offset the other aid theyre eligible for or they could save those benefits for graduate school if they used other aid to further their undergraduate career. And i hope we could enlist the department of defense and other veteran support services in helping us craft a message together with the department of education and schools that would let them know that its worth their time to apply for aid. I thank you and i look forward to working with you in the future on doing all of those things. Thank you. Thank you. Senator hassan. Thank you, mr. Chair, for having this meeting. I want to echo what you have heard from the witnesses and Ranking Member today. I want to thank you for your leadership and thank you for your outreach to me as a new senator when i started, in particular, and we have had some candid exchanges but weve always had productive ones and that speaks to your leadership. Thank you so much for everything youve done for so many. And i want to thank the witnesses for being here today as well. And i will start with a question to ms. Cook and ms. Feldman. In may, i sent a letter to secretary devos urging the department of education to ensure that students who have been financially impacted by covid19 receive the Financial Aid that theyre eligible for. While the administration has since clarified that Financial Aid administrators may use as professional judgment to adjust students Financial Aid eligibility, if their financial situation or Employment Status as changed. The department has continued to count Unemployment Benefits toward a students earned income calculation. Something that simply doesnt make since given the economic disruption. The department of education has failed to conduct any out reach to recently unemployed individuals about their Higher Education options which the Obama Administration did during the last economic recession or committed to changing the online fasfa form to capture students with the recent financial changes. We need to do more for our current and future students. What are your recommendations for how congress and the department of education can address the challenges that students are facing while navigating their changing financial circumstances . And well start with you, ms. Cook. Thank you for this question and for your attention to a rapidly changing situation. Many of our students, unfortunately, do find themselves or family members with changes in employment, Catastrophic Health care bills and unfortunately in some situations the death of a parent. This is a lot to manage and certainly triggers for professional judgment. We appreciate the flexibility that has been put in place so far, but agree with you that more can be done to better support our students, particularly those with unemployment. Ill yield some sometime to ms. Feldman too. Thank you. Ms. Feldman. Thank you. I think youve made excellent points and it would certainly help students and aid administrators to have a lot of clarity. I think youll see in my written testimony that i call on you as members of congress to codify into law the provision that is were made in the 2009 letter which allowed for both of those provisions and protected schools from getting professional Program Reviews from the department of education based on the number of professional judgments done during a pandemic or other crisis such as this one. Thank you very much for those responses. I have a question for you as well. The covid19 pandemic has devastated businesses across New Hampshire and across the country and put a Record Number of people out of work. Ive heard from many constituents who are struggling to find work in their chosen field and who need access to upscaling and retraining programs. In august, we introduced the up scaling and retraining assistance act which would help expand programs for employers who hire and retrain workers. We need to provide robust support to workers and businesses who are adapting during and after this pandemic and institutions of Higher Education play a significant role in this effort. Would this shift in workforce and business needs, can you speak to the role of Higher Education and economic recovery and how employers and Industry Leaders may partner with Higher Education on some of these initiatives. Absolutely. Thank you, senator, for your question. I will say that Higher Education is critical to economic recovery. It is, in fact, one of the benefits of the act that well go to the virtual job fairs with the pell table. When you look at certain countries, the Workforce Development council and employers to create clear pathways to the adults they reach and they let them know, they combine it with an income share agreement that says if you finish this program thats in high need, you wont have to pay for your education. And so if you have an income below a certain level. We need to combine these simple messages with the partnerships you describe and very much use our labor market data to train people for the jobs that are still growing. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator hassan. That will complete our questions from senators. But let me go to senator murray and see if she has any Closing Remarks or additional questions. I dont have any additional questions. But let me just thank the witnesses for joining us today and, mr. Chairman, thank you, again, to you for all of the work youve done to simplify the fasfa we take you to a House Natural Resources Committee hearing on the use of cameras by Law Enforcement officers at the interior department. Failures and consequences. Any oral Opening Statements of the hearing are limited to the chair and the ranking minority member or the designees. This will help us and allow us to hear from our witness sooner and help members keep their schedules. Therefore, i ask unanimous content that other members Opening Statements be made part of the hearing