Transcripts For CSPAN3 History Of Documentary Filmmaking In America 20240712

Mint discusses his book screen reality how filmmakers reimagined america which explores the history of nonfiction films to 24 century reality tv. The Burbank Public Library hosted this event and the video provided by the burbank channel. I just wanted to say thank you for coming. Im with the Library Staff and this program is part of a series of programs that the library prisons from time to time on topics related to the film industry. Sometimes we take a look behind the scenes on films in eighth genre are made or explore how a particular movie is made we did this recently by the way with queens of ammunition and we are looking at the film china town just a few weeks ago presenting documentary film making in the spring we hope to present a program on the creation of music scores for film by taking a close look at the jury career of max stein are. Perhaps hollywoods most influential composer. It has been noted that we are presently in a golden age of documentary filmmaking with more documentaries being filmed, screened and seen than ever before. But what impresses me more than that i suppose ive noticed these days advocacy and educational groups eight recent documentary comes up in a day conversation. People reference, it recommended and in particular talk about its defining impact on them. Documentaries are becoming more pervasive and a integral part of our conversations about political and social issues. In fact they are often framing and shaping those conversations. Why this is happening is perhaps something our guests here tonight will talk about. John will come in screening reality is a widespread view of how american truth has been discovered, defined, projected, televised and stream during more than 100 years of dramatic changes and its just some of the challenges ahead for documentary filmmaking at a time when our Public Discourse is fraught with tension and division. As i was reading screening reality and came to the final sentences of one of the chapters, i read some lines that felt to me like a cinematic transition. And it dawned on me that this book is being written by a documentary filmmaker. It occurred to me that maybe the best person to try to make a coherent narrative out of that documentary filmmaking is someone who spent a career making them certainly with over 100 years of documentary films and telling the story a lot of film had to be left as they say on the cutting room floor. That seems something essential to the craft. Someone needed to be familiar and off to keep them in the story and know how to find a narrative line to identify things have changed to note the innovation and the impact of new technologies, and to outline the issues and challenges about screening reality that have seen perennial and endemic to reflect the things that weve always confronted in trying to explain to others what we have experienced is real and true. You can learn a lot in reading this book. Not only about how documentaries were made, but also the very riding of it seems a exhibition of documentary writing skills. Im not sure a subject could have found then john woken. His work has appeared on abc, cbc, pbs, hbo, and at t. Seven part series moguls and movie stars a history of hollywood was nominated for three emmys. His previous book flood path was a amazon Nonfiction Book of the year hes a Founding Member of the documentary film association. Tonight we have as a special guest, talking with john about his book, barr tells, shes the chair of the documentary Film Department at the film academy here in burbank. Shes been involved in making documentary features in television and shes worked as assistant director in a number of projects including Reality Television shows for discovery and National Geographic and she currently teaches screenwriting and documentary writing and producing and she continues to produce and direct. Please join me in welcoming general kent and to the Burbank Public Library. Thank you hubert. Can you hear me okay . What inspired me to write screening reality was a concern about modern arguments, about what some have called a posttruth era. I was concerned that insights into the evolution of not crave fiction from a craft i put in my life pursuing could provide cautions for the future. I take a long view of the subject. As you see on this screen the past in the future and the president can stand side by side. On the left is a kinetoscope, edisons 1890 peep show box. You could listen to a photograph record wilson wearing 19 eighties on the right as a Virtual Reality scene from a film called hunger in los angeles. Whats interesting is to see the oculus rift glasses worn by that woman on the right and the person on the left peering into the peep bucks in some ways weve come a very long way in other ways not much at all. Setting the stage for the veteran of movies the first photographs that moved were created in 1970 by eccentric photographer edward. He took sequential photographs of a running course to prove that for a time all four hosts were off the ground at the same time. Projected in rapid success they produced a illusion of movement so you make a argument that the first movie or product movie from the beginning was a search for truth. Inventors in europe inspired and informed terms edison when he created the first practical Motion Picture machine system. In the 1890s his associate killed dickson shot in a shed the first movie studio. Edison captured black worker sneeze which was the first copyrighted film. Again it was a search for truth. What did the sneeze look like in a way that you can ever see in relief in realtime . In france in 1985 the brothers august and luis louis a and a theater screen that inside a box and a kinetoscope. Their first movies were documentaries scenes of everyday life, images of distant lands. They called them documentaries. When edison premiered his protection of movies in 1986 when critics saw it as his latest toy no one could envision what he would do with us. Could you sit in a theater and watch scenes Street Scenes of cities . You could actually go to the city and go to things and see things. So movie was looked upon as the interesting kind of short term fad. The nonfiction films were called actualities and and present cameramen like Billy Blitzer would make movie history with griffith went to a front of a train and took movie goers on trumps called phantom rides. That early film you see it now almost every day the phantom ride continues and watching some of the spectacular imax film. By 1915 movies were no longer considered a fad. They told compelling fictional narrative but Edward Cordes look for ways to show the world. Consider it a time a vanishing race, but a movie with the people of british columbia, mix of fiction with fact was a Box Office Failure but suggested development to come. News reels approached early filmmaking in world war i they played a role in for the home front but also stirred accusations of propaganda that shattered debates but the rule of documentaries in decades to come. The persuasive power of movies was recognized early, during the first decades of the 20th Century America received a new generation of immigrants. Educational filmmakers added americas asian to classroom curriculum. Films produced by unexpected movie maker henry ford another idea that would produce documentaries and certain in america. By 1922 american movies dominated the world the products of the hollywood dream factories. That year surprise hit started a inuit family in the canadian arctic. Robert as seen here with his collaborative wife francis, produced in the neck of the north, consider the first narrative documentary. Limited by the book he side equipment of the time and inspired by a idealized vision of reality. Flirty admitted that sometimes its necessarily to buy to tell the truth. Husband and wife martin johnson, but there are adventures to movie goers in the 19 twenties and thirties and in particular a inspiration to in new generation of women who aspired for a freer life. In the dark days of the Great Depression Franklin Roosevelt imitation applied Government Solutions to national. Problems 31yearold film critic was chosen as fdrs. Shooter the plow that broke the plains and the river were lyrical examinations of environmental traditions in the great plains advocating for the new Deal Solutions that could conservative republicans considered socialist if not worse. Truly socialist if not communist a critics of the injustices of the 1930s america came from radical photographers and filmmakers like leo horowitz and paul strand. There daca drama native land made accusations of racism and strong but controlled by Hollywood Studio is hard to get control the and small audiences with audiences that were already convinced. During the thirties and forties the most popular source of non fiction filmmaking was the march of times the march of times featured stories and reenactments and were far from political they had a great influence on the truth during a time of isolationism in the face of a emerging war in europe. Encouraging americans to acknowledge the dangers ahead. When war came to the united states, in 1940, won many of hollywoods greatest directors signed up to play their fictional movie skills to getting documentaries. Lower joe stephens and in the center joe furred and they traded carefully structured scripts that didnt follow standard plotlines. Threats raining reality these filmmakers interacted with the world around them. During world war ii a long tradition of Racial Injustice need to be confronted. The documentary the knee grows soldier was a attempt to include African Americans in the militarys history even as segregation remained in place. After victory, in the philip there be light, hollywood director john houston addressed what committee to paducah to the human mind and spirit his portrayal of the less herbal wick ban for more than 20 years. With the rise of television in the late 1940s and 19 50s, even if air time was mostly consumed by easy to take entertainment, the power of documentaries revealed by the journalism edward r. Murrow and fred friendly and their critical examination of the toxic influence of joseph r. Mccarthy contributed to his downfall but it wasnt long before challenging long form documentaries and cultural programs were headed towards extinction on advertise driven american tv networks. During the tumultuous 1960s, new Technology Made a new approach to documentary film reality possible. Lighter cameras, more light sensitive film stock and easier recording of synchronous sound made cinema verity possible filmmakers bob juul ricky legate upper left and da pennybakerfollows bob dylan. Below him, consulting with al meisel and his brother david. In the lower left, fred wiseman contemplates the next edition of his lengthy can examinations of contemporary life. 1973, american viewers were transfixed by cinema very take captured of the loud family. 12 part series started as a sociological examination of the modern American Family and took on the trappings of a reallife soap opera, again suggesting things to come. Cinema verite brought a new attitude about what a documentary could and should be. Hold out attitude and nonfiction metaphors who were supposed to be good of you are challenged by films like woodstock directed by michael widely. Mixed entertainment with closeup looks at the counterculture and action. Making a documentary required equipment that could be expensive. The cost of film processing and editing added a financial challenge. That began to change with relatively inexpensive videotapes systems. In the 1970s new movement called gorilla tv launched by groups like video freaks and true value television tv. They fought for air time on television and succeeded although the revolution was short lived. Alternate points of view far more lasting secession on Public Television as america became more diverse multicultural. Produced eyes on the prize about the american modern civil rights movement. You cannot do the same for the latin americas civil rights movement. The times of harvey milk brought lgbt stories new respect and relevance. Native americans found their voices on film. Women have been pioneers in the first decades of hollywood history, but by the 1930s movies movers by big business they were shouted. Aside documentaries provided and will documentaries created an alternative for women filmmakers to thrive. Barbara koppel thrived. She captured the power of organized labor and the beginning of the end of the Labor Movement in the 1930s. In the face of influence of cinema vegetative, storable documentaries of canned burns arguably the best known and american documentarian are proud tradition. Based on indepth experience and thoughtful narration. During the 19 eighties and nineties, the television monopoly for serious documentaries by pbs and tell it programs like frontline were was challenged by the Discovery Channel form by John Hendricks seen with the walter consecrate cbs. Perhaps the greatest contribution to the new golden age came from edgy emotional and uninhibited films supervised by hbos director of documentaries, sheila evans. In a time when postmodernism claims truth is the result of multiple perspectives, not objective reality, truth discovered is as important as what it is. This fills charles preconceived notions and the film demanded viewers question. Michael moores politically provocative films or forthright, but he brought something new to his arguments humor. As leftwing fans laughed his opponent struck back with rightwing fell was funded by deep pocket production might money made possible by the Citizens United Supreme Court decision. Day one of the most prolific it documentaries todays alex give many. As films like oscar winning this guys in the room are often based on deaf print journalism. The the days when theaters dominated distribution was eclipsed by broadcast television and then cable, more recently streaming options of Services Like netflix and the use of documentaries to expand growth and influence and impact. Series of making a murderer spans decades with courtroom fiction crime documentary the history of another nonfiction tread explores the is the personalization of filmmaking made possible by inexpensive and easy to use equipment. That made all online distribution alternatives. As early as the 1920s, americans produced their own home movies, and starting in the 1980s, trained documentarians made their lives the subject of films. Like shermans march. Today, everyone has a cell phone and can record and distribute video. With filmmaking experience easy to acquire, audiences can become more sophisticated viewers. Or make truth even more insulated and personal. Turning everyday people into tv stars can be traced to the cinema verite adventures of the lives of the American Family. Today producer mark burnett as is the star reality tv even if viewers know what they are watching is not always on the up and up, many dont care, preferring to be entertained by the truth they believe. The upright is one of the most successful Television Shows crossed the line from credibility appearing artifice to the real world with donald trump becoming the president of the united states. Some documentaries demand viewers confront hard realities. Others are about engaging experiences. The first peak show films were viewed as carnival attractions, glimpses of the unusual. In the attempt to counter the appeal of television, hollywood filmmakers developed largescreen 3d, making documentary watching an immersive expense. So what about the future . Imax could soon be passe if Virtual Reality achieves its promise. To conjure environments are truly interactive. It becomes a challenge of story finding, not storytelling, maintaining a commitment to evidentiary truth will be more difficult than ever and never more essential. That is it. Thank you very much. I look forward to talking with you. [applause] i have to say that i dont. I have to say jones book is is expensive expansive. Yes i read it. All i read every 446 pages. Its an amazing breadth of knowledge and an amazing dip into this. You know its funny, im glad that you did the slide show so that the audience has some context. John youll have to have i guess for me got it. Got it im glad you put up the slide show to give people context because initially had i actually had a sort of conservative approach to the book because i thought to myself how does someone do a history of documentary without including international influences . I was how does that work . Then as i began to read the book up against a little really lean into it, and the moment i leaned into it was the moment he got to also and martin johnston. And the reason was because i remember that as a child, my mother in the sixties was 30 years old, mother of six children, a housewife and she decided to go back to school and become a working mother. Years later, i said to her how did you have the courage to do what you did at the time . She said oh said johnsons books. I married adventure was her big bestseller. This woman whod been documentary filmmaker with her husband went on to write books about. Which i thought was great. How do you think those two, of course rock first robert flirty came first but you talked a little bit about that. How did they open up the world for americans, influencing americans . They are a complicated and interesting couple. Particularly as far as and also, in the 1920s women really had an opportunity been liberated, they got the vote and can work outside the house, or at least potentially could. Or said johnson was this idle for so many women. I tell a story about in one of their films, theres a scene where a line is coming to attack martin and osaka, and she brings out a rifle and shoots the line dead. In the next scene, shes back in cap baking and apple pie. I can bring home the bacon. I was satisfying to women because of his only shooting lions they could never relate. With making a pop. I sadly however. By the way ioc crashed in an airplane near killing martin. She survived. They were trying to land at burbank airport. But as i talk about in the book and his more indication of this, often films, every film you cannot tell everything. There is often a whole other film behind what you show around which you show. And in the case of August Johnson as inspiring as she was, from about 1920 on, she was a serious alcoholic. She really could not take the pressure. But no one ever knew that. As i say in the book it wouldve ruined the story. So that and robert flattery story which if you want to get into it we will. That is really part of what makes documentaries exciting that theres always another level the you can go. You can always widen the frame if you want. So the question i had about robert flirty and manic of the north, and im gonna sort of leap go back in time and lean leap forward in time a little bit. Nanotech of the north is discussed as the first commercially successful documentary. It was huge. They wanted him to go and make another one. Wichita, oh oh wow is that me . Okay. Now what is interesting about nine nubuck of the north as that john of course he discussed in your book, there were certain liberties taken when he was shooting near nook, and theres a moment where nuke bites a record as though he does not know what a record is. There was an anthropologist at the time who said no, no he wouldve known what that was. So im not quite believing everything robert is showing us. Cut forward several years, and bowling for columbine comes out, and its one of the most popular documentaries of its time. Highest moneymaker of its time. It also did not fully portray the truth and did things that were in that moment made up. It also has statistics that were made up. So im wondering whats your take on creative license and truth . Well, michael more i will not remember the quote properly, but roger aber had a wonderful quote about michael more. He said some of this film is true, ill get it wrong. People forget about Michael Moore is he is a satirist. He is not a journalist. He makes jokes. The famous story, theyre talking about florida is all the people from todays perspective, they say well first of all flurry was doing a historical film. Then he wanted to show the inuit as they were before the white man. He of course they knew about gramophone scene they had rifles. But thats not the film he wanted to make. The other thing is that we are all spoiled today with all the equipment. If he was going to take a picture something, he had a camera about this big. A huge tripod. You didnt go chasing after nine oak on the ice fields. He had to set everything and stage. What it comes down to is that i talked to voters throughout the book, what is the intent of the filmmaker . Is the intent to deceive you . Is the intent to entertain you . As the in is the intent in the case of someone like michael more to cap your interest and catch it with humor. So the story thats told in boeing for columbine is a very famous scene in which he goes to a bank, and at the bank if you deposit 500 dollars, they give you a gun. So you see him go in there and he hands the 500 dollars to the woman and in the next shot hes outside the bag, weaving a rifle. While his critics, the political left said, and a bank said this is totally false. This is totally untrue. Hes lying. The film was made called Michael Moore hates america. Biggest, liar cant trust a word he said. In fact it was a lie. You have to wait a day to get your rifle. Thats a lie and thats a lie. However the bank is giving away guns. Right the truth of it was that you got a certificate that you took to a Sporting Goods store. That they took to a Sporting Goods store, and you actually still have to go through a check. You had to go through a twoweek check. Suck documentary than involved really rapidly, evolved rapidly through the social issue documentaries of the thirties, and into world war ii. I found the world war ii documentaries really interesting, and often the nonfiction films that they need, except that last one of course that got being and for 20 years, right. It was too true. It was too true right. But in the most part we supported the war and drummed up support for the war but my question is in your mind what is the line between documentary and propaganda . Is the line drawn by the filmmakerj primarily and the documentaries are in sort of a separate realm. It was meant to be funny when nick was fighting you want to be entertained, so the modern generation of filmmakers, basically the old style, the original stuff, the take was that the documentaries are the d word, the documentary is good, for you it entertains, you it educates. You and if entertain see you all from the very beginning, filmmakers who are making films in the context of the filmmaking business or movie making in general chipped at this and whenever they could they push the boundaries. Not just lying but they wanted the film to be more dramatics of the developed narrative arc. So one of the famous films that the did is called give me shelter. It is a them about a concert and which a man is killed and the editor charlotte, she wanted to tell a dramatic story so she withheld information as you would in a mystery story. She used slim ocean, freeze frame, and all of the stuff what the cinema purists heated. She called them the cinema police. So what a say in the pool book repeatedly is the difference between eight fiction found and a non fiction film is that in a fiction film about a murder, and a nonfiction film about a murder, it is certain that the victim is permanently unavailable for a second take. You can fudge, it you can reenact, that there is a different and theres the post meridian thing which is the hip thing that mers gets involved width and in a good way. Its all just lies, the movie business is. Lies you do a documentary . What happened after you turn the camera off . What happened when you turn the camera . On youre just lying dont trust me or as our president said dont trust any of that distrust what i tell you. So to me i think that is crap. But people pick away at documentaries, and forget that really what do you are after is the intent, because what happens with a documentary maker versus a fiction filmmaker is a fiction filmmaker could have a bomb and make another, one it documentary filmmaker has a very special relationship with audience and its a relationship built on trust when you set making a documentary, the document audience says ok you are telling me this is not you know the latest marvel, this is your best effort to tell me what you found and show me what you found and i will trust you. I will trust you and i wont just the fiction, basically have to make money and entertainment. You are trying to tell me about the real world but for some reason you failed to do that as a documentary film maker, lose trust and when you lose trust you lose everything. Without just theres no documentary film, theres no documentary filmmaker so ethical issues are constant in making documentaries. And my earliest experience ill tell you about this really quick, one of my earliest lessons when i was a youngster and i was doing a documentary for a series, short documentaries and it was a story about a man who in his neighborhood in the bronx, it was like a war zone and he and his neighbors alike they got the neighbors together and they fix to a park and they planted plants and it was just beautiful. So did the whole film about what they did and at the end of it i interviewed him, and hes talking to me and as hes talking to me suddenly tears start pouring down his face and as the young documentarian i was up those days im like oh what a hell of a ending for this film its gonna be terrific is gonna be fabulous. And he then afterward came to me apologized and said sorry sir i didnt need to cry. I said no you know you cried over what you did and he said actually theres a dog that died yesterday and im emotional over him. So energy that i worked with i talked about with him on the phone and his first question to me was okay, is he crying about the park where the dog . I didnt know. I thought probably it was the dog, and i say its going to make a hell of a ending and he says youre the director whenever you want to do and i left it out. I said listen i cant live with the idea that knowingly, if i never knew about the death thats one thing, i knew about the dog. So then i go to the ethical questions that are just critical to ethical documentary making. I love it i kind of hate that he left it as a storyteller but also can of love that he left it out. Go ethics so obviously, the evolution of documentary filmmaking has had to do i love the animations i love they put the peep show up with the Virtual Reality, because they dont appear in the same place in the book, and i havent put them side by side you gain some genius. But obviously this many innovations including the pancake film camera during the war and the that you showed. So that has led to sort of a evolution and an easy to make documentaries. But what do you think has led to the recent uptick in the popularity of documentaries . Part of it is economics. There are more elements to make films for and documentaries are cheap to make. The influence of reality tv is huge. And when i talk about in the book is that again going back to this idea of trust. People say to me everyone knows relative tv is phony. Nobody blue suits going on there you know. But the argument there is its on scripted. Does it must be a little bit more true because it doesnt have a script and a scripted film which is made up. But mainly the audience again is the key to it. The audience decides i dont care. It is a wonderful quote that i use in the book from p. T. Barnum he says basically that he learned that audiences prefer to be amused even when they know they are being deceived. And that is the key to what is going on right now in politics and its certainly a struggle you have when youre making documentary films. I think that thats interesting. I just know that this actually is statistic right now. I was talking to somebody at netflix and they said from 2015. In 2015 maybe 30 of people were watching documentaries. Maybe. By 2018 that number had changed to 70 of the people of the audience. So there is this gain right now in popularity in audiences. Not just in the people that oh theyve become popular to make. Yes. But also i think you are right there is something, this the audience seeking the truth. But also being made in a style which is fiction. You know all these modern mystery series that go on forever its a narrative style of fiction. Its a real murder and they are real people and theyre in a real jail and theyre going to the courtroom and the story told is a fiction story test arc of a fiction story and that broke through to audiences rather than having tell you that mccarthy is a bad person and can put together evidence to show that in a kind of a journalistic way you can watch these movies as if you are watching a fiction film. Its fun from the point of view and i cant talk about this i kind of talk about this in the film and book as well if you made films and you know what filmmakers but around you know what they are doing, theres a big successful film called catfish its phony and you can see right away what they are doing. The secret is if you are in a car and the phone rings and someone picks up the phone and says oh wow, we just learned that so and so is happening. Why we should go there right away. The chances the phone rank at that time with a camera running are zero. You are thinking a phone call and that happened and the camera wasnt running thats the first put has to be able to find a way to do it but you need to find a way to inform the viewers that and it could be a very subtle, that youre not getting the up and up in particular if there was no phone call that the total lie and that happens a lot in that film. They knew all about this woman while before my god look at this woman shes doing this crazy thing they knew about it weeks ago. They knew about it there faking the story because it is better from a narrative, drama point of view so you start fooling around with chronology, we start fooling around with emissions because like the story of the gate with the park is that i couldve said must use the tears i just will tell anybody about that dog and ultimately you cant do that. If you are a serious filmmaker. I think theres also a sense in all documentaries or certainly young documentarians coming up that its sort of a guerrilla type profession, we can team up and we can create something without a lot of people but as you and i discussed before the evening started, writing is still key. Story is still key so talk to me about how story is evolving or devolving. Have documentary storytelling is evil and medieval you talked about it a little just now with the fiction, how else can we respond . You look at the work of probably the most Popular American documentary can birds at the scripts are wonderful. Jeffrey roth is a fabulous writer writing ration scripts is out of fashion that has been for sometime. So i was sitting at home watching a very good film factory which is a very good film, but theyre just struggling not to have a script. Theyre putting entitle cards into doing their everything they can to avoid running a script and theyre struggling to get away from formal interviews. This is the legacy of cinema very today. Sin of a retail is no more real than any other form of filmmaking. I mean in many ways fred wise men, who was probably my favorite documentarian, he says that much of what he finds when hes shooting is coincidental but nothing you see in the film is coincidence. He is structuring a story. Its not lying to you, hes not fooling around with the chronology hes not doing emotions. But hes also not doing dramatic arc of the multi series so you get into situations like the jinx, the move it is now being done. In the sixties, cbs did a documentary called the an counted enemy which is about vietnam, and that general westmoreland have been fooling around with the numbers of the eight kong who had died to make it look like we were winning the war. And so there was evidence of. That and so this documentary came out and said that he was fudging the numbers. Well he sued for 120 million dollars. And eventually the problem was that when they did that the editor of the film and two Young Filmmaker the sound so silly, why we excited about this . They did three or four questions around the same subject. Then they combine answers to different questions in this thing and icing on the same subject. But in relax will, time he wasnt answering that question. Even even as close to what he did he did not answer. It so evident eventually the lawsuit was dropped. Now he moved to reality tv. Its common and not to term in reality tv is called the franken bite. Bites being shorten into parts of audio fracking bites you take a paragraph, you flip the words around you add this and to make it better. In jinx, the famous scene that durst goes to the bathroom and he leaves the microphone on and in the bathroom he appears to confessed to these murders. He said what did i do . Are all thats what i did. Two things, they claimed that they only discover this tape of this material very close to the hbo premier. People are saying a new about this for two years, and they wanted to time it with the premier. You can argue with one another and not framing why any as a truth. The other thing is that they created a franken by. They move the sentence around so the last thing he said was i kill them all, its what i did. Much more dramatic. He did say all that. But he said okay you have to make some kind of compromise, but the defense wants to throw that interview out as being false. Its going to stay. But all of a sudden youre making a cooler, more dramatic statement, the next thing you know you may be getting a man often a murder charge because he did not Pay Attention to what you are doing. Not only that, but they possibly obstructed justice for two years by sitting on it. One of the things, i mean john you and i have been both on a set, many of you have been on a documentary set, if you are a sound person, youve got your hands you can, sorry got them around your neck. Youve stop filming. We call them cancer, headphones. Youve got them around your neck. If somebody started talking in the restroom, started murmuring, if my guys started murmuring, i go what the heck ceasing . Wouldnt be better than . A or they heard him babbling to himself all the time. And they said lets just keep the microphone running. Lets see what he says. He other still unawareness. So i dont put them down too much but it goes back to this idea of trust, which is so critical. And sure, you can be as creative as you want. I have made films with monty python animation in them. Ive done daca dramas, in the eighties i was doing the Richard Speck murder case in chicago. Shot it in black and white. I use the transcripts of the trial for the script. You have all kinds of freedom in your creative freedom and then the main thing is you never sacrifice whatever style use, you never sacrifice that critical element of trust. Its hard to convince younger filmmakers chafe at that. It is so much cooler if i do this. Yeah it is cooler admit, and maybe you can do it, but youve got to find a way when you do it at the audience knows that you havent fooled them. I guess i want to have one last question. Im my guy over there check me out. Were not gonna do this for another hour . I kind of want to do a spoiler with when your final quotes from her book. Its such a great quote and when you get to it you go mindblowing. Im just gonna read an excerpt from it. Rearranged the words so little bit better. Already range the words enduring accept just an example of what were talking about. He says films it honestly involve other human beings in the real world are crucial to maintaining a society that is inclusive in free. I love that. That brings me back to the times magazine cover in the that you referenced in your professor your introduction i cant remember. That cover is is truth dead . What do you think john lighted is truth that . Im dying to. No you dont make documentaries and not be an optimist. I dont think were the only people who believe. This we are in really critical times. American democracy is really hanging by a thread in many areas. It is going to be this combination in the case of documentary, documentary filmmakers and audiences. I talked briefly at the end, whats gonna happen technologically and the days of nook and the light cameras in the video, whats gonna happen next youve probably all heard of deep face. You can take a piece of video, and swap somebodys head easily and over there is a famous story speeds that obama gave when he was president. You see him talking. The words coming out of his mouth or the words of a speech he gave at harvard 20 years before. If you look, closely can figured out, but soon you wont be able to figure it out. So, the demands of audiences right now as that they have to start demanding from what they watch and what they believe and documentary filmmakers have to work with them and not make it easier for them to escape into lies or escape in a fantasy or escape into something else. Because if you lose a credibility interest, we are gone. And particularly in a democracy where you really need an educated electorate who makes wise decisions hopefully about what they want to do. And when they make mistakes, they correct them. And documentary filmmakers awe the theme of the book are critical and pivotal to our country historically from 1890 abbott even more so right now. So he was gonna come get my microphone and we are gonna open up the questions to the audience. That one . This one . This is actually a better mic so there you go. Im sure you have some questions. Dont be shy let me get over there so we can get it on the phone. I just want to know what do you think in terms of a filmmaker, does he think about subject first. Im thinking about paris is burning. Which about modernize communities in was a huge hit but when they were making that they expected that kind of reaction. Its a great film. I did not occluded in the book to my embarrassment. I liked it a lot. [indiscernible] the music music rights are going to kill you, and she said music rights . What i tried to do is they are not the one hit wonders. They have a career in films. People like Michael Moore and errol morris and all those folks. They spent their lives making films. I did this film called chicano rock. You can probably guess i am not chicano. I saw that this was done in untold story. I met people written a book written a wonderful book called land of 1000 dances. Took ten years to make the film. But i knew the idea was good. The problem was that the east coast is where the money is. Whos gonna care about them in california . Nobody is going to watch this around the world or country. So i said were to think the second largest Mexican American population . Is a navy i said no chicago. Anywhere thats a long story i sense that was a great story i think we choose stories i think what you stories. Im sorrow teaches all the time sometimes you think youve got a great topic for a documentary, but in fact what you should be looking at or four is what is the story there . Where the people involved . Paris is burning is a beautiful phone because of the characters right. Because of the people involved in a take our heart. You know, i talked to romelu ross, who came out with hale county morning an evening, and i talked to him about that the idea words. And the thing he talks about and that more more documentary filmmakers are talking mode as we are coming into an era of radically personal stories. Right we are trying to share us as people so that is not just about education, but it is. And an educated voter thing right . But its not just about. That its who will . My who were . You how are we the same . How are our communities are saying . I am. You you are. Me we are all together. I taught at usc for awhile. I would ask people tofor an idea of a film. They would say im interested in pet chihuahuas. I want to do a film about chihuahuas. My grandmother is an interesting person. I want to do a documentary about my grandmother. I was not popular. I want you to do a documentary about someone you dont know. Not your grandma. Somebody elses grandma. With all these cell phone cameras, archivists will get these shots from disneyland, and they are incredible. What do you get today . You get your face and the face of your friends. You dont see disneyland you see the face of your face of you and the face of your friends. With all the power of technology, how do you get people to turn the camera the other way and look at people you dont know, come to understand them and share them. The tendency today is fragments. In the case of nanook, he wanted to talk about these inuit people. These are people are eating seals in a blubber with their hands. He wanted to show them. One of my favorite filmmakers ross black and ross blocks philosophy was how do we make a film . I go down and get drunk with the guys and make a movie. He would hang out with them because he wanted to capture who they were. Its not about him. Its hard. I think a lot of the younger filmmakers wanted to make it about them. Im going around and seeing my friends. You do that film. It may be a great film. In the case of jennie livingston, she found a world of people she did not know about. She felt stories they werent directly connected to her and for me thats very important. They did that also in united skates. I want to point out anyone here, most of the movies you mentioned are mostly a criterion. So theres an easy way to find the paris is burning just came cat. Wonderful movie would i want to ask you, what is the documentary that inspired you to make documentaries . There are specific movie that set you off on your path . When i knew i was gonna be asked this question im gonna sort of mildly cop out. I was watching when i was young a young individual, who was a tv series called on the bus. They did a documentary about a violinist yashica high fish. I got to know him. One point, he was playing a piece of music that was incredibly fast, he was technically amazing. They showed his fingers in slow motion. You saw him making these enormous leaps back and forth across the keyboard. Ive never seen anything like that before. I now understand more about why he is a great violinist after having seen a. So is not a true documentary. But basically when i say what he make documentaries its very simple. When i make a documentary, i go out i find a story, i go shoot it and i go find something. I go look at something. I go wow. I shoot it i make the film show it to somebody else and they go wow. And thats a fair exchange. They are wowing what you are over. So many of the documentaries its unfair there are hundreds of them. Who a similar phone. Japanese filmed, very moving from. It is analysts. What often happened in my cases, that im concerned many cases again were affection for eccentricity becomes becomes voyeurism. A lot of young people say look at that guy he acts weird, thats cool you never seen anybody dress like that or act like that. Are you really having affection for the, sky already are using him as a source of entertainment . A lot of documentary films or voyeuristic. You want to if not love these people you want to respect them and you want to care about them. Susan raymond, who was the sound person on American Family said, you everybody is excited about American Family. It was a huge, it drama, drinking divorce. A lance love was gay. It was great. But Susan Raymond said and i quote in her book as younger filmmaker he, have to realize when you make a film, you are showing somebody in that film to the rest of the world. You better have that right. You are going to go out and make another film and they are gonna love that image you created them. So be careful of what youre doing. I just wanted you to know what made you want to proceed documentary filmmaking over say excuse me why deny do the real thing . Its very simple, its the word that drove john hendrix, the founder of Discovery Channel. And its the word that draws every documentary filmmaker simple curiosity. I was curious. I wanted to find answers and i wanted to share those answers. I wanted to share experiences that i had and. And black wanted to make connections with people and i would not see would not meet. Although i love fox fiction films and i did a whole series return a classic movies of fiction films called moguls and movie stars. Basically for me i like the idea that what i was exploring and what i was showing wasnt real. That was really appealing to me. Also the difference between being entertaining which is what fiction filmmakers are basically about, the best phones are but ultimately there about i detaining. Documentary filmmakers about engaging in the world. I never consider working in fiction. Phelps ive taught. It they were all based on historical factual offense. This pretty much goes along with what you were talking earlier about the youth, and you as well. With social media expanding, it almost seems like this world is becoming more and more divided. He said that you see the whole log style of its my world and i want to show it rather than finding that world, do you feel that maybe in order to show the vulnerability of the person the individual, maybe that might show the truth and we really do engage with more of the world . I did not want to put down personal films. Ross mac way, should seize films if you dont know. Shermans march is his most famous one. He walked around with the camera on his shoulder and talks to people. They talked in. Some of them said get that camera off his shoulder. Im so sorry, i have another question. If you have more and more people doing that and since camera equipment is becoming more affordable and available, anybody can pretty much create some construct it is completely false, how does one person stand out and actually be seen as a truthful documentarian . Its not easy its not easy. I think that one of the again gone back to the personal film, which is popular in the eighties and pink us did a phone call diaries about his own life. Because it was so portable you can go around this is perfection if. What youre showing is interesting if its you sleeping and hanging out with your friends and cooking in the kitchen, unless youre cooking interesting stuff, it is interesting. This might be interesting to you or your friends, but it is interesting 2 Million People . What people found out i talk about this in the film, is that the tradition of home movies essentially where all movies were people take movies that other people would not, stories in situations, classic example 1893 worlds fair which is a huge world fair. A guy came along with this camera shot all the stuff most of it was very similar to the commercial films they were being used to advertize the fair. But he went on the midway in the back of the fair or all the scandal a cloud ladies were dancing. His personal interest as a whole other data dimension of understanding of what the affair was all about. Another example, a wedding takes place an absolute. Down taking pictures of the bride and groom, for a moment, it cuts away, and there is a young girl looking out into the street. It is anne frank. , total accidental. The most famous home, movie areas approved or foam from which kennedy was killed. I say this to filmmakers. Why are you telling me this . The answer cannot be it is cool. There is more to it than that. Or these are weird people. What else what is the next layer . It could be your life story. It could be skateboarding, surfing. Thats the question. Why out of all the minutes of my life should i give some of those to you . You may have a good answer. It can be anything you want but you need to think of the filmmaker that way. I think it is worth taking five minutes of your finite life to look where i show you. You will benefit from what i am going to show you. I think you have referred to this briefly in your introduction. If someone sponsors you to do a film like the military, and you know it is going to be used for recruiting purposes, are we still talking about a documentary . What a lot of people dont know, and if you are independent filmmaker like me or someone very famous, 20 of documentarians make a living at it. You make what is called sponsored films. You make films for foundations. I dont chills first say the children about films about children in war zones. I was paid for. I had no problem. The nasals made films for a dog food and stuff like that. You have to do that. You turn stuff down, too. They have things now called branded content where they have these little micro documentaries, and at the end of it, you will see the word yeti framing the shop because it is really a yeti cooler commercial you have just watched. What they are showing you is a lifestyle that is true. They are showing you a Mini Documentary of this guy cooking food in nature, giving you a recipe. They do this great little documentary. They are wonderful and fun, but they are branded content. If yeti mistreats their workers, that is not in yeti fil ms. This goes back to the 1920s where henry ford was the first to do educational films doing films about immigrants. He would put in the logo of the screen would be a model t radiator. Often as you are doing films, ford cars keep coming through the shot. Product placement in the 1920s. To answer your question. It is knowing what intent is. I dont do things that i cannot honestly justified to myself. Mainly what i do is for foundations and nonprofits. Those are the kinds of films i have done. They are not commercial films. I have done a film for an Adoption Agency about adoptions. It promotes the agency, but i deal with the subject in a realistic way. Save the children, i did a series of films for the metropolitan transportation in l. A. When they were building the subway. It was about city planning, why you should have train stations and build cities around train stations. I believe in that. It was promoting mass transit. I have no problem promoting mass transit. I was selling something i believed in. I i have a question. The editor of the ida magazine. I hired him 25 years ago. You actually didnt. It was a couple of board president s later. Let there be light, people did not see it for 20 years. Reporting from vietnam did show the truth of the war. Im wondering about the context in which let there be light was shown. Was it one of the networks . Was it shown in theaters . Was there a big buildup . It sort of slipped in the side door. And wasnt shown in theaters. It was a constant issue with documentary filmmakers. The argument of the military was these are people under huge stress, physically and mentally. It is a very moving film. Theyre being treated in ways that are positive. The point of view is they are learning to cope with what they went through. But the army said to houston, you have made an antiwar film and you invaded the privacy of these soldiers, they are going to be seen on theater screens not able to talk, fighting, crying, all that kind of thing. Houstons response was if i ever made a pro war film, take me out and shoot me. The other thing was yeah, that is a real issue. But the goal was not to make fun of these people. Look of look at this guy cant talk. No it is to show how the treatment was used in every case. It is probably true in any case. It is fascinating. One of the individuals he stutters and cannot say s sounds. They put him under hypnosis and realize what he is responding to is the sss of the rush of incoming german artillery. He was caught in that sound and he could not say as is i think his question also was, if it came out 20 years later in the 1960s, did it come out because of the vietnam war . I am not sure about that. Certainly, it was possible. For example, films about nagasaki and hiroshima, i think it took 30 years before they were shown. The japanese did it first. Kind of a segueway, another film that was censored that you mentioned before also shows Mental Illness in its truthful form. Was that the reason . It was invading privacy was the presumption. There were lawsuits. That had to do the hospital i think. The hospital, the people, it is very stark. You have seen it, i have seen it. Its a very powerful film but again, it is always the audience borderline. Why are you telling me this, why am i watching this . Why do you want me to watch this . Do you want me to watch this and say look at that crazy guy, look at that . Or do you want to say, these are people who were in a very bad situation the hospital, and the hospital people wanted the film made because they hoped it would improve conditions. But what happened with weisman was the same argument was made, you are invading the privacy of these people. In some cases, many of the people had died in the film by the time it was shown. Then again, to me, these are fascinating things. With documentaries, you have to be careful to think about it all the time. Wiseman is terrific and in the sense of how he finds things. When people asked the secret to his success, he said hang around and watch and shoot lots of film. We will take one last question because i want to leave enough time for jon to sign. You talked about curiosity as to why you did it. You talked about the importance of truth. You talked about facing the camera the other way. What are the considerations for your target audience, who you are paul speaking to . How do you consider what youre doing in regards to on what audience you are trying to talk to or do you care . You care. Turn you know, i dont target the audience like i am going for a scifi or mystery audience with a documentary. I hope the documentary is interesting to as many people as possible. I dont breakdown by genre if it is music like chicano r ock, i would hope whether you have heard the music or not, you would be interested in kids growing up in east l. A. And there trying to find their identity in america. So you dont have to like the music it is their struggle to find their own identity, so that is interesting. And also the documentaries what happens with a lot of filmmakers is you find success and do the same story again. You did a successful true crime and then you get another one five down into crime i dont want to do it again. I didnt think in this day and age especially that we do think about who our target audience is, what our market is going to be, like we are shaping perhaps the treatment. You start to think about those things. But you think about them in terms of, what is the title of it . How am i going to hook that audience, right . But then, we hope that it goes beyond that audience. So, we dont change the story for an audience but we might change how we sell the story for an audience. That is really important. Youve got a cell i do think people take it into consideration. Going back, i am sounding like an old fuddyduddy. You dont compromise the film you are making to give it a sales hook. Hopefully, your sales hook is generally connected to the film you want to make. And its a good film the hook is great, but it is describing what you want to do so you are not saying this guy is an interesting character, i will make him bigger because people will be more interested in him. Well if hes not an interesting character find another hook because it is not the truth. I want to thank you both for a really interesting conversation. [applause] and the audience as well. Thank you for some great questions. I will say that i knew john was going to have some interesting things to say, but i especially want to thank Sanora Bartels for all the preparation. She did this all for the library on her own. I appreciate that so much. Thank you very much. A great interview. [applause] youre watching American History tv every weekend on cspan 3 cspan 3 created by americas Cable Television programs as a Public Service and brought to you by your television provider. Exploring the issues that they want to present a new congress to address in 2020. One cost to. When youth are given the opportunity and the skills to become informed voters and engage citizens, they vote. Because democracy from inequity and legal documents to a tumultuous