Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Oversight Virtual Briefing On Police Reform 20240712

Racism and policing, and the role of Police Unions. Come to order. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Good morning and thank you to everyone for being here for this important briefing. Black lives matter. I cant breathe. Hands up, dont shoot. No justice, no peace. These powerful phrases are rallying cries for fair minded americans seeking to live up to one of this countrys core principles. Equal justice under the law. Since our nations founding, africanamericans have struggled, fought and died for the right to be free and equal citizens. This month marks 99 years since the tulsa race massacre, where an entire, vibrant community was destroyed and black men, women and children were systemically murdered. Today is juneteenth. A holiday that celebrate s the freedom of black people in america. That freedom did not come until 1865. Two and a half years after president lincoln abolished slavery. We are still working for freedom and we are still working to provide equal opportunity. For all citizens in our country. Our work is not done. A long list of names of black people unjustly brutalized by police shows that the fight for justice must continue. George floyd. Breonna taylor and so many others deserve so much more from their country. These heart wrenching murders have sparked protests across our country. There are just victims from the past few months. There are just the ones we know about. How many other George Floyds and Breonna Taylors have there been . How many others have had their lives snuffed out without anyone but their grieving families protesting their deaths. The answer is undoubtedly too many. George floyds murder was live streamed and his was not the first captured by fellow citizens on their cell phones. In 2009, oscar grants murder by Transit Police in oakland, california, was also filmed on a cell phone. How many deaths could have been prevented if we had listened to the call from mr. Grants family more than a decade ago. The National Reckoning with system systemic racism and policing is long overdue. We have known the truth of Police Brutality for years. We must not let this moment pass without sweeping reform. I urge my colleagues in the house and senate to embrace this moment and heed the calls of a mournful nation. If you believe that black lives matter, you will vote for the George Floyd Justice and policing act. I now recognize Ranking Member jordan for a brief moment. And statement. I cannot hear you. Mr. Jordan, are you with us . Im speaking to the republicans staff. Is mr. Jordan with us . Hello, can you hear me . Is that mr. Jordan . We have a video, but no voice. Im here. We can hear you now. We can hear you now. Thank you for joining us. I could hear you the whole time and weve been okay. Online the whole time. Thank you, madame chair. Weve had a hearing and a mark up in the judiciary committee. In each occasion, i talk about four principles which to guide us as were forming public po policy and trying to address the concerns that are very real. The tragedy in minneapolis never should have happened. Its as wrong as wrong can be and mr. Floyds family deserves swift justice. That applies to anyone. The individuals you talk about as well as the Police Officers who have lost their lives trying to protect people during the riots that were part of some of these protests around the country. Second, key point i think there is a peaceful protest as part of the American Experience and something weve all engaged in. Part of our First Amendment liberties, but theres a big difference between peaceful protests and rioting and looting and attacks weve seen on Law Enforcement and certainly a big difference between peaceful protests and forming this community we now see popping up in seattle an Portland Chaz or chop or whatever the distinction is. Third, i think this is critically important. The vast majority, the vast majority of Police Officers do an outstanding job every single day. Theyre the folks here on capitol hill who protect us each and every day that were here and serving the people of this great country. Theyre the ones who rushed into the twin towers on 9 11 and we should keep that in mind as well when were thinking about any Public Policy decisions that we make. And maybe most importantly, this policy proposal we are hearing from some of my democrat colleagues and certainly our big city mayors, this idea that were going to beef up the police may be one of the most insane Public Policy proposals we have seen. Weve got the mayor of new york saying hes going to cut a billion dollars out of the police budget. Theyve already gotten rid of their plane clothed members. And the Police Department and as i mentioned, youve got the crazy situation in seattle. Those four principles i think we need to keep in mind as we work on policy and addressing concerns that are very real and i hope we will do that. We offered 12 amends through the democrats legislation just two days ago. Not one amendment, its not one amendment was ak cemeccepted by democrats. Again, i think pointing out wed like to work together, but i dont think thats the sentiment from the other side. The attitude that we can have moving forward. Now recognized. Our late belove ed Elijah Cummings would be so proud of you for convening this hearing for giving us the opportunity to amplify the voices of those in the streets who have galvanized the conscious of america and given us a chance to repair the social contract broken by centuries of Police Violence against the black community in our country. Public opinion polls show that three quarters of americans support the protests despite all the violent provocations, groups determined to sabotage the magnificent, nonviolence of the protestors. Americans overwhelmingly want change and reject the kind of murderous government violence embodied in officer Derek Chauvins excruciating eight minute and 46 second imp sigs of torture and asphyxiation on the body of the handcuffed george floyd, who was begging for his life. To participate in the Committee Wednesday and i will be proud to vote next week. We heard testimony from George Floyds brother which still rings in my ears. I am so tired, he said. Im tired of the pain. Stop the pain, america. It will be difficult to stop the kind of pain thats already been inflect flikted, but today, at least whether he provide an opportunity for the community to hear and understand the pain and exhaustion experienced by black communities across america and the participate and advancement of reconstruction of policing in our country to prevent the further imposition of the families still grieving today. Federal action is badly needed because state and local governments has failed to address Police Brutality despite repeated movements in local reform. Well be safer inside the social contract, a state of nature and war, nasty, solitary, brutish and short. Where was the social contract for george floyd . Where was the social contract for Breonna Taylor . For tamir rice . For millions of black americans who live in fear of Police Officers whose salaries they pay. Put simply, for black americans, the social contract has always been contaminated by racism and White Supremacy, our nations original sin. The basic promise to provide safety and security rings hollow for too many communities. A black american has more than double a chance of being killed by police as a White American and Police Encounters are the leading cause of death for young black hen men. The problems of Police Brutality reflect the embedded structural race israel new mexico our country. Violent White Supremacy is the real deep state we must uproot in discarded america. Yes, my friends across the aisle, weve been in search of it for several years now, race israel system the real deep state in america. Violent White Supremacy dominated our country for an entire century. The Supreme Court did nothing but constitutionalize, in a dread psychologicscott institut determine td a white man is bound to respect. Our first opportunity to try to purge the violence of White Supremacy and it lasted for 12 years before it was washed away by the ku klux klan and night riders and grandfather clauses. Poll taxes, literacy tests. Violence and nonviolent assaults on the rights of africanamericans and it took another century, where africanamericans had to live through jim ycrow, armerican apartheid, before we got another Civil Rights Movement led by john lewis and the blood sacrifice of dr. King and medger evers. We got the right act of 64 and again, we have experienced a terrible rollback and the appearance of president s elected not by majority, but by the Electoral College like donald trump, who utter phrases like finding very fine people marching among racist and fascist and clans men in the cities of america. My friends, we conduct this briefing today on juneteenth, our National Commemoration of the end of slavery in the United States. We celebrate freedom and emancipation, we should be working for a third and final reduction in america. Lets finish the unfinished work from the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s and the reconstruction of the 60s and 70s where im proud to say it was radical republicans from ohio who led america. Who led america like john bingham and josh, who led america in saying we must have interrational commitment to rebuild america from the ground up, not on the basis of white se premsy. I want to thank our Witnesses Today for being part of this great struggle. I yield back. Thank you. Shes muted. This is why i wanted you to i know recognize representative pressly, whos been a leader on these issues and introduced one of the first bills after mr. Floyds death. Mr. Preston. Thank you for hosting this important briefing. A Public Health pandemic thats robbed us of lives across the nation. Disproportionately black lives. Unveiling and reiterating the disparities of the health care system. An economic crisis that has led to mass unemployment, evictions and record levels of Food Insecurity and the crisis of systemic racism in our policing system. A systemed in the original sin of bondage and slavery. A system that for too long, the profiling and surveillance of black and brown bodies and resulted in the lynching and murder of countless black people. And while the covid19 pandemic took this nation by storm, the only thing covid19 didnt disrupt was racism. So in this moment of truth telling and wreckening, it is critical we certain the humanity and dignity of all people and ensure those closest to the pain are driving the policymaking. As baltimore reminds us, not all things faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. The fact of the matter is racism is not simply a point of view. It is not a point of view or the actions of a few bad apples. It is a structural as the martial pillars. The policies that have destroyed black lives and family were precise from the bondage to the failed war on drugs. So in this moment, we need our policy solutions to be just as specific. And precise in legislating our healing and justice. It is not enough to say black lives matter. Our policies and values must value black lives. We must heed the call of community and push toward policies that will provide much needed accountability and structural change. Righteous rage has driven thousands to the streets in every state across the country, but let me be clear. There can be no justice for oscar grant, eric garner, Michael Brown or tony mcdade. There can be no justice for Breonna Taylor, Natasha Mckenna for rashard brooks, stephan clark, freddie gray or terrence kohlmann. For in a truly just world, they would all still be with us. There however must be accountability. This is personal. I am a congresswoman, but first she already know noahs the unbearable pain of fearing for our life or her fathers life and for those she loves when ever were out of her sight. I know what it is to be surveyed, profiled and threatened. And still, we rise. Generations from now, our grandchildren will look back and ask a simple question. When you have the opportunity to legislate with conviction, to summon the political courage, to ensure that not another man is lynched in broad daylight, that not another woman is murdered in her own home, did you . So i thank our witnesses for joining us today. For lifting their voices, Holding Us Accountable and for fighting to ensure their loved ones deaths were not in vain. Thank you and i yield. Thank you. Mean fingful statement. Is there any republican who would like to be recognized for a statement . Another republican member who would like to speak before we move to our presenters . Ok okay, i will now introduce our briefers. First, we have cotura aaron, a policy strategist for the aclu of kentucky. Next, we have bonnie jackson, the uncle of oscar grant and cofounder of families united for justice. Next e we have kimberly crenshaw, cofounder and de executive director of the africanamerican policy forum. Next, we have mark lewis, an activist with we the people oklahoma. Next, we have pastor michael mcbrye x director for the Live Free Campaign and last but not least, we have don bonngihi and with that, miss herron, you are not recognized. Greetings. My name is contoura herring and im a policy strategist and also a member of black lives matter in louisville. I want to thank you for inviting me to speak on this important issue of race, policy, policing injustice. I come before you to make sure we lift up Breonna Taylors name and as we continue to fight for justice for her and others who have lost their lives to Police Brutality. We see protests across the country because enough the enough. During this time of the coronavirus, america and the world are essentially put on pause, which forced people to stop and pay attention. For years, black people have been screaming and america has largely ignored us. I think the coronavirus coupled with the horrific death of george floyd forced america to reflect. For eight minutes and 46 seconds, the world watched as a black man begged for his life and called out to his deceased mother as he lay dying. This is not something people can easily erase from their minds. No distraction could take these images and the video away and its time for america to respond. When killings like those of george floyd, Breonna Taylor happen, people will lend their voices from around the world. However, we understand that people and their Attention Spans are pickle. There will be another story. The cameras will turn, the Media Attention will fade and the people left in those communities that have been rocked by brutality remain. Theyll be left to pick up the pieces. It is essential for people that live in these communities to know they can impact legislation on a local level to prevent this from having. We passed breonnas law with kick knock washts and requires all Police Involved in serving a warrant to wear body cameras. The law requires them to turn them on five minutes before serving a warrant and keep them on five minneapolutes after a t warrant is served. When breonnas law passed, a huge tv was brought outside on the steps of city hall so citizens could watch the proceedings. Folks were engaged because they understood their voices mattered and they were able to impact legislation on a local level. They learned it was the judges they elect and representative they chose locally that would affect the laws that govern their daytoday living. Now people are engaging differently in different arenas. People are organized around a more just budget and others are closely monitoring the collective Bargaining Agreement between the fraternal order of police and our local government. When organizing with people who have existed in a survival mentality for years through the system attic racism, the it is difficult to get them interested in local politics. The truth is it is difficult to get anyone interested in local politics. Many people are simply trying to make it from daytoday. As we organize, we are also educating people on how it is not just things that are done at a federal level, but also at a local and state level that would impact their lives. Many just do not fully understand how the political system works. Many people will go out to vote for a president [no audio] i think weve lost her. Okay. Then well go back to her possibly. But mr. Johnson, you are now recognized. Mr. Johnson. Thank you, madame chairwoman. And Ranking Member, u. S. Representative, jim jordan. I bring you greetings on behalf of the team, impacted family members, the Community Members of the National Families united for Justice Network. My name is see fus johnson, also known as uncle bobby. I am the cofounder of founder of california families for Justice Network and oscar grant foundation, my sister, oscars mother. I have been advocating since the murder of my nephew, oscar grant, january 1st, 2009, early new years morning. Policing tactics, inactions that led to the death of mr. George floyd. We are extremely hurt and grieve with the nation at the horrendous killing of Breonna Taylor arbury and now, brooks. We offer our deepest condolences and prayers for these families. There is no horror comparable to watching your loved one be murdered. That horror is forever etched in your memory. Perhaps because it could have been prevented. The power of the police to put deadly force with the most significant use possible we give to any public official and that responsibility must be guided by the goals of save every human life to protect human rights. Per law results in officers killing civilians more often than necessary. Many families and communities devastated and the public less safe. These tragedies disproportionately Impact Communities of color. The senseless murder of george floyd has gained attention from around the world. People from every walk of life are protesting the justice be fair, transparent and equal. It is important that officers involved, it is important that the officers involved be prosecuted. It has impacted belief that accountability and transparency is the key to Building Trust and policing agencies in the community. Family united for Justice Networks with fully aware that addressing issues within the local agency is saving in small part a larger, more complex comprising of policing culture. The culture of policing originated from the slave patrols organized by groups of armed white men who monitor and enforce discipline on black slaves. I like to theshare with you, wh we have done and must be a threats. We strongly recommend a national use of force policy included in state and local policing agency standards. Mandatory deescalation requirement for all officers. And policies that require the use of deescalation tactic as a priority. Prohibition of all physical restraint maneuvered on our above the neck, choke hold. Police qualified immunity should be removed. U under federal law, Police Officers while civilians and rights pursued in federal court, but the qualified immunity now for such unless their action violates clearly a stoppage law. A federal Data Collection of use of force data traffic stops, pedestrian stops, data of all demographics, a National Database of officer misconduct, we support a passing of justice the policing act, which specifically addresses the loopholes that continue to allow policing tragedies through oversight and accountability and an environment that fosters racial tension. Mandatory requirements that all officers render immediate medical aid to any person experiencing a health crisis, whether in custody or not. Mandatory requirement that officers intervene where a physical force is being applied to either stop or attempt to stop another officer on the force is being inappropriately used. Mohannandatory Law Enforcement accreditation for a national requirement. Provide the Civil Rights Division of Justice Department enforcement and overing sight against practice of discrimination. In closing, on behalf of impacted families, i thank you for allowing our voice to be heard. Today, at this time in our history. Impacted family appeal to the House Committee and oversight pass legislation to reform the system of policing. To hold Police Officers accountable and to snuff out the culture that has bribed in the belly of the policing sense. As a black man, i can unequivocally attest to the perpetual existence of the pr practice remains a rally to people of color throughout this nation. It is critical that we first acknowledge the press rate of approach to chain. And encourage them to begin the process of missing, enlisting those values, enlisting those who value the sanctitity tof li and protection of human rights. Again, thank you. Miss chairwoman. Thank you. We have miss herring back. Youre now recognized. Hi, thank you. Ill just finish toward the end of my testimony. Theres always talk about when our federal government should step in and when we should leave things to the state and local jurisdictions. It is always the time to do what is right and i believe now is the time for our federal federa government to take action and prohibit Police Policies and practices that brutalize communities. Today this body should make it your duty to ban noknock warrants, to ensure Police Officers dont get special protection when they engage in misconduct, police who swear an oath to protect and serve should be held to a higher standard. We should draft policy to ensure that police have a duty to intervene when they witness their colleagues brutalizing someone. We need to end the 1033 program which militarizes our police and stop attacking peaceful protestors with tear gas which are used in war zones. Ultimately we must reimagine Public Safety. We must divest in policing and incarceration and invest in systems that provide equal access to housing, education, health care, safety and opportunity. Thank you for allowing me to speak today and i also encourage you all to read my full testimony which should be provided for you. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Professor crenshaw, you are now recognized. Ranking member, members of the committee. Im kimberly crenshaw, professor of law at ucla and faculty director of the center for intersectionalty studies at columbia law school. Im honored to be here o this impunity with which too many Police Officers act remains insulated by qualified immunity and special protections that help them escape accountability. And we talked about how the last words uttered by dying black people must guide our resolve to transform american policing, words like, i cant breathe. You promise not to kill me or simply and heartbreakingly mama. By now im sure that from the stories youve heard, the news youve read, the pleas for justice, you match these stories to the names you know, eric garner, Michael Brown, george floyd. But the africanamericans that we talked about this week were not those you might think. They were black women. India, kendra and sandra. Black women and girls as young as 7 and as old as 93 have been killed by police. Theyve been shocked, choked and tasered to death for defending their homes while black and asserting their rights while black. India was a navy veteran who was killed when s. W. A. T. Team fired 50 rounds in her car knowing that she her son had done nothing wrong. Natasha was strapped nude to a restraining chair by a half dozen officers in hazmat gear. They tasered her four times. It was natasha who uttered the words that should haunt us all, you promise not to kill me. Tragic stories are amplified by images of black women and girls being abused by Law Enforcement, girls being thrown and beaten, a woman being hog tied and dragged, Police Violence against black women is very real. Its visceral, its dehumanizing. Thats why the structural and intersectional dimensions of Police Violence cannot be overlooked. In 2014 we add aapf began say her name to elevate the fact that black women are not exempt from Police Violence. A study found that black women were the only race group to have a majority of its members unarmed when killed. This means among women killed by police, blackness may be a greater risk factor than being armed. Black womens stories underscore and expand the current conversation about Police Reform. The deaths of black women in Mental Health situations amplify the need to rethink the role of police as First Responders as well as the overused claims that use of force was reasonable or necessary. The deaths of Breonna Taylor and Atatiana Jefferson underscore that unless noknock warrants are eliminated theres no escaping the disproportionate risk even in the sanctity of our own homes. The death of karine after a traffic ticket points to that. And the death of Sandra Blands shows the possibility of biased prompted by race and gender is real. So the sort of largely unregulated discretion that initiates encounters with Police Facilitated by a Fourth Amendment enhances the risk of other kinds of abuse like sexual abuse. The Cato Institute found it was the second most common complaint against police. Aapf support is George Floyd Justice in policing act as an important first step. We call further for the fully intersection approach to activities under the act including disaggregating race, gender and other factors and assessing institutional and individual bias and developing Training Programs and officer civilian protocols and in creating alternatives to Law Enforcement activities. I want to end with two quotes that shape the polar possibilities of this moment. In 1857, from our founding, black men were so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect. And speaking in 1896, Anna Julia Cooper wrote, only the black woman can say when and where i enter without violence. Then and there, the whole race enters with me. In this democracy, it is up to congress to lead the way in ensuring that when it comes to life, liberty and freedom from police abuse, justice will finally be made dead wrong and Anna Julia Cooper will stand fully in the right. Thank you. Mr. Lewis, you are now recognized. Thank you, chairwoman. Ranking member and distinguished committee members. Im grateful for the invitation and the opportunity to speak with you today and share our Community Concerns regarding abuse of policing practices and the immense need to reform. My name is marq lewis. Im a Community Organizers and founder of we the people oklahoma. Our organization has been instrumental and getting necessary changes made in our local Police Department, including empaneling a grand jury for the former tulsa county sheriff. Those indictments led to convictions and removal of officers who were negatively impacting the community. Today i would like to discuss policy changes, decertification, and Racial Disparity. In 2016, an officerinvolved shooting which ended the life of terrace showed just how slanted the policies are to protect officers from facing criminal indictments. The officer in question was not given drug or alcohol tests after the shooting. The officer was allowed to review the video of the shooting making a statement and the officer was not interviewed for three days immediately after the shooting. Nor did the officer render aid to mr. Krecher. We do not know the suspect we may know the suspects victims, we may know the suspects criminal history and what could have impaired that particular person. Yet we have Little Information to know what could have impaired that officer. This is common across officerrelated shootings. I submit that each officer who discharges their weapon, should have an immediate blood and alcohol test and psychological evaluation. There must be specific federal definition of extensive force. It should not be left up to the jury to determine what a reasonable law officer should do in various situations. We must have a federal standard that red flags an officer for use of force and Excessive Force complaints. Officer chavin has dozens of complaints and 16 of those were closed without disciplinary action. Who was convicted of killing an unarmed africanamerican plan has not been desecertified. Most recently in tulsa, a former detention officer who has had a history of racial bias and use of force claims where he was able to become a Security Guard and he just shot and killed an unarmed black man. Had any of these officers been decertified it would have been possible that they would not inflict any death and trauma they have caused. Governor Charles Baker of massachusetts has proposed a bill that would decertify officers who failed to live up to their oath by falsifying evidence, make false arrests, or if theyre convicted of crimes. This should be the national standard. Currently the process of decertification is up to the board and each state. Therefore a federal database of negligent and destructive Law Enforcement officers need to be created to weed out those and should be desert fied. Obviously, Racial Disparities play a part in Abusive Police practices and training. In oklahoma, officers are required to have 70 hours of firearm training and 69 hours of physical control training, yet theyre only required to have nine hours of Community Relation training and four hours of Mental Health training. Africanamericans are arrested twice as much than any other group and they make up 15 of the population. There are also overrepresented and have longer stays in custody for lower level crimes. In the nation, the largest Racial Disparity in jail admissions were at the lowest level, municipal offenses. Black women were admitted to jail 3. 5 times the rate at white women. This is according to the institute. From overpolicing in black neighborhoods, Gang Task Force units that target minority areas and recruitment of young teens with minor infractions into becoming informants. Racial disparities and biases are used daily to intimidate and traumatize people of color. In my conclusion, in order to reduce the abuses in Law Enforcement, we must root out racial biases, increase communitybased training, decertify officers for Excessive Force and other negative behaviors and create a standard that is rooted in3vpaj hands of rogue officers. Now is the time todoi3 all the members of this committee over 20 years ago, march 9th, i was physically and sexually assaulted by san jose Police Officers. I was a student out of Bible College living with my pastor and family but that night i could not see my family. Practice is the fruit that has emerged from the soil of that horrific night. And for so many of us who have had our humanity degraded, our bodies mishandled, our parts abused under the law, there is a pain that never leaves us. A shame and anger that never subsides. There are ever present questions that echo in our minds why did this happen to me . And why was no one held responsible. Many of us who show up in the streets arrive with scarred bodies and unresolved trauma still mourning and in almost every case, the very person who harmed us is still hired as a Police Officer in our communities with no accountability or worse still, to. When many of us say abolish the police, were not saying abolish Public Safety. Far from it. Were saying lets bring to an end this current form of policing. A system all too willing to sacrifice native bodies, trans bodies, womens bodies, male bodies, on an alter of a false sense of safety. Reasonable people can debate the particulars, but all of us should agree this system of policing cannot continue at the cost of black lives and black safety and security. The good news is, we need not sacrifice Public Safety to end this system of policing. Neither must we start from scratch to reimagine a 21st century Public Safety system. For the past 20 years, ive been immersed in the work of Public Safety. My journey as a survivor, a faith leader, practitioner, organizer have taught me that victims and perpetrators in urban communities are often the very same people. Their networks of violence are largely ko largely concentrated and overpoliced. Here is evidence with respect to violent crime. Research tells us that only 5 of all arrests are for violent crimes. Our experience reinforced that less than half of 1 of a citys population drives as much as 60 of gunrelated shootings and homicide. We have the strategies to save lives. Shrinking the footprint of policing in our cities for the sole purposes of reinvesting these tax dollars is a recipe for success and not failure. Can you imagine how different our communities and country would have looked if we unleashed hundreds of thousands of health nurses, addiction counselors in the 1980s and 1990s rather than more cops. We can still right that wrong today. I know many members of congress are uncomfortable with the words defund the police. After decades of overinvestment in failed systems, all the people are asking for is a refund. Refund our tax dollars so we can put it into schools. Refund our tax dollars so we can hire Public Health violence interrupters. Refund our tax dollars so we can prioritize housing the homeless and feeding the hungry. The fierce urgency of now compels me to ask how much longer will you ask us to wait for progress. What is at stake are not budgets or politics, it is dignity, life, our sense of belonging to one another. Our shared humanity. In this moment encourage fused with imagination and usher in a bloodless revolution. One that brings an end to uninterpreted trauma on the spirits and souls of black americans. May we look back on our times and say, these are the days when america became america. For the many who have never had america be america for them, may we launch this third reconstruction and change the system of policing for black americans and all americans in this country. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you very much, reverend. Chairman maloneys system is down. Theres an area spectrum outage in her neighborhood. Im going to recognize mr. Bongino. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to address your committee on this criminal issue. The death of george floyd was incredibly difficult to watch for all of us. None of us will ever forget that video. There was a moment of National Unity and outrage. Tragically that moment is being sabotaged to impugn the integrity and heroism of the people who stand on the front lines right now, Police Officers. Yes we can and we should focus on improving our Police Departments. Its critical. Its the right thing to do. Our Police Officers do have enormous power. They have the power to take away freedom and in some difficult cases life. But defunding the police is unquestionably the road to destruction. Policing is a stressful and at times emotionally overwhelming job. No other position outside of our military asks so much of men and women. No one on this panel is currently being asked to meet and interact with people at the worst and most perilous moments of their lives for eight hours a day, potentially seven days a week. No one on this panel. Its devastating. It takes an emotional toll on our brave Police Officers. Emotional toll that thankfully few will ever know. Having said that, Police Officers can have bad days. We can and we should do better. This National Debate is more from a conversation about improving the quality of policing, to defunding them and painting them with grotesquely offensively labels such as systemically racism. I ask what system are you referring to . Its a fair question, is it not . Many of the political figures lobbying this charge are the system. If you believe in a system, its a fair question, is it not. And the system they are part not has been run by democrats for decades. Ignoring this reality while insinuating that the good Police Officers who work within it are compliant are a racist system is tragic. I proudly served in the 75 precinct in East New York brooklyn and the Police Officers i worked with always reported for duty looking to assist the people in that neighborhood who, again, were largely minority, black and hispanic. Ill say in closing, fathers day is approaching. While some are using our Police Officers as political footballs questions. Thank you, all for being here, again, the people closest to the pain should be the closest to the power driving and enforcing the policymaking. Were grateful that youre lending your expertise to this moment. Mr. Johnson, i want to extend my deepest condolences for the loss of your nephew oscar. You are the member of a tragic club. Im grateful that you join us today. Many black women and mothers have had to relive the taum rauf their loved ones murdered on national television. The mothers of the movement have been trying to tell us for generations to stop murdering our children. We must listen. You must center these experiences in this moment of truthtelling and reckoning and while juneteenth is meant to be a day of celebration and freedom and emancipation, we must take stock of this moment and be sobered about the work that lies ahead. Mr. Crenshaw, is it fair to say that the policing system in our nation grew out of the practice of capturing and murdering individuals trying to escape from slavery . Could you speak to the history of your policing system and how you see that influencing modernday police. Thank you, congresswoman presley. Indeed. One of the historical dimensions of policing that is in many of these conversations overlooked and undervalued is the fact that our policing system was grounded in the notion of patty rollers, effectively those who would ride the plantations to use coercie coercings. When we talk about policing as a way of enforcing the order, one has to understand what the order was initially based on. When africanamericans were able to escape, when they were captured, if they were, what they were charged with was threat. They were stealing themselves, right . So the value system of law that backs up a racist Economic System is the thing that police were reinforcing and securing against what would otherwise be seen as selfhelp, freeing one self against a baseline of freedom doesnt look like theft. It looks like freedom. So the long history of policing tied together with an existing system of deep racial inequality has been so close that policing doesnt really ever get that far away from that history. Thats why its important in this moment that we historyize this problem, that we see why it comes up again and again and again and why so many africanamericans are experiencing the moment as basically being captured and taken back to a past in the same way runaways were captured and taken back to slavery. Thats what this moment is really about and thats why we need a much more fundamental structural solution to the problem of race in policing. Thank you for that historical contextualizing. Can you speak to specifically how has qualified immunity contributed to the culture of immunity among Police Officers. I think that one of the things that were seeing and one thing that ive been explaining it is if youre working at a place like kroger or if you have your own business and you identify a bad employee, someone who has taken money out of the Cash Register on a daily basis or not coming back from their break or a no call or no show, theres things that you put in place to say, this person is bad for our business and we need to get rid of them and i think that what were seeing locally here in louisville, kentucky, is that police have so many protections around them that when we identify theres a bad Police Officer, theres no way to get rid of them. And so i think that the thing that needs to be known and said is that we know that they are some good Police Officers out there. However, we know that the structure of policing has not been favorable to black bodies and the policies in which they operate under have not been favorable to black bodies and communities. And so what we need to see is when departments or even families recognize that a Police Officer is starting to engage in those behaviors that make them not a good employee, that we have to have ways to get rid of them. Thats not only for the safety of the Police Officers and their families as we know that theres a lot of Domestic Violence that goes on within those households. But also to protect the communities and thats what Public Safety is and when folks were talking about divesting and defunding the police, thats what were talking about is how do we get rid of those bad Police Officers to make sure that the structure of policing is fair and equitable for everyone. Thank you. And ill just there can be no Justice Without accountability. And so i appreciate your offering that context. Doctors can be sued for malpractice, lawyers for negligence and so on. No one is above the law. Policing should be no exception. My colleague and i, we have introduced the inequal fied immunity act and it would allow americans to seek justice when their civil rights are violated. I hope my colleagues will support that. You coined the term intersectionalty. It speaks to the reality that our destinies are tied and we must center and uplift the most marginalized in our community. I just wanted to yield the floor to you for you to educate those on the term who might be unfamiliar. Thank you, congresswoman. Intersectionalty is basically a concept that allows us to see that problems in inequality are often not singleissue problems. When were looking at the Police Violence issue that i was talking about earlier, its often not just a matter of race. Its a matter of race in conjunction with class, in conjunction with gender, in conjunction with gender identity. Intersectionalty tells us that we have to look at all the different ways that vulnerability is structured into our society. Its not about the body itself. Its about how the body is situated in our society, in various social structures. For example, some of the women that we lift up are those who had Mental Health crisis, but they were also africanamerican or they were africanamerican and trans and all of these things come together to shape how the officers interacted with those bodies. So intersectionalty says we need interventions and understanding of the problem and look at all of the systems that come together to create the vulnerability. No single issue or single prism frame is going to solve the multiple ways that were seeing vulnerability to statesanctioned violence. Thats right. Thank you. Mr. Johnson, i want us to bring oscar in this space. Tragically when were robbed of a life, much of the public only gets to know them for the way in which they were killed. But i want the American People to know who your nephew was. And so in the final seconds of my line of questioning, would you just share a little bit with us about your nephew and the kind of young man he was. Most definitely. Right before i go into oscar, i did want to share our executive team most people dont know about, marlon brown out of florida, andrew joseph, 14 years old out of tampa, florida, Michael Brown, we all know, who was a part of our team, ferguson, missouri, west palm bea beach, florida, but ill talk about oscar, yes. For those who dont know. Oscar was murdered on january 1st, 2009, in oakland, california. A young 22yearold man who also felt that he was oscar was beloved by his family, definitely his daughter who at the time was 4 years old when he was murdered and he promised her he was going to take her to Chuck E Cheese the next day. He was loved by his friends, community, high school. He had a whole host of friends on witness on the platform that watched him get murdered. He was my first nephew. So, you know, i had a very special love for him because i was an uncle. And he had a Good Relationship with my son who enjoyed each other. So i had an opportunity to watch him grow up, spend a lot of time with them. And was deeply hurt witnessing what happened to him on video. I think the world should know that in the 21st century, oscar really is like the emma till of the Civil Rights Movement. Because they were all based in oakland when oscar was murdered. In 2012, there are 3,000 bodies killed by the police that we seem to all have forgot about. We cant minimize the impact of this violence. Since oscars death, over 12,000 civilians, black folks, white folks, brown folks, has been killed by these acts of Police Violence. We say that good officers that dont tell on the bad officers are just as culpable. We feel there should be legislation in the agency to ensure that bad Police Officers are removed and held accountable for their murders. Yes, oscar was loved by his mama. He was loved by his grandmother. He was loved by all of us in the community that witnessed what happened. That was oscar grant. The gentle ladys time is expired and now you are recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairwoman. I appreciate it a great deal. We are now an hour and 15 minutes into this time together and this remote concept is not working. Its time for us to get back to washington and do what we are called upon to do and i would just like to put that out. Secondly, madam chairwoman, i would just like to say, this is yet another fake hearing under the guise of a briefing where yet again the Minority Party is disproportionately not allowed to have a voice and have witnesses. Not to take anything away from the witnesses we have. Their testimonies have been powered. But yet again, we only have one witness and i would ask the chairwoman and future to learn who our witness is, who we have today is not whatever you said. Its dan bongino and were honored to have him here with us. I am grateful to participate in a hearing that is addressing a very serious problem. No question, black lives do matter. They matter enormously and ill do everything i can to help in the calls to defend and protect black lives. Its my hope that at some point we would expand our briefings or hearings to include violence and places like chicago that over memorial day alone had ten africanamerican lives lost. This past weekend, 80 chicagoans were shot by drive by shootings. There were 21 fatalities overwhelmingly within the black community. That needs to be addressed. I hope well also one day look at the black babies lives that matter where, again, disproportionately black babies are being aborted. 14 of women of childbearing age are black, 36 of abortions are in the africanAmerican Community. 471 abortions per thousand live births. I hope we will look at that as well at some point in the future. All that can be said. Mr. Bongino, thank you for joining us. Im sure you recently saw the shooting of Rayshard Brooks and the atlanta Police Department by officer garrett rolfe. One thing i wanted to bring up to you, Fulton County da paul howard said that brooks pointing the taser at the officer did not constitute a death threat and yet just one week before he made that statement, he charged six atlanta officers with inappropriate use of a taser as a deadly force. Im not trying to adjudicate one way or the other the circumstances of this case. My concern, however, is the confusion that so many of our judicial departments are creating with a double standard where a taser in this case is a Deadly Weapon and one case and not in another. How important is it that we get these policies, these rules clearly defined so that our officers are enabled to do the work that theyre called upon to do. Its critical, congressman. Thanks for the opportunity to speak on this. If were not willing to have a legitimate factbased conversation about what constitutes reasonable use of force standards, whats the point . If just a few weeks ago, as you indicated. Im not acting mr. Howard personally, its his own words. You can look it up on youtube. Just a few weeks ago he quoted georgia law and said a laser is a Deadly Weapon. Anyone watching this hearing is free to watch it themselves. And yet two weeks later, he indicates that a taser pointed at close range by an untrained person, by the way, and his death is tragic nonetheless. Let me be Crystal Clear on that. Stealing a Police Officers taser weapon after punching him in the face, attacking him and his father, running away and fleeing into a crowded parking lot with said weapon and turning and pointing it at the face of a Police Officer where the barbs could penetrate eyeballs and the skull, how you could indicate that that is not deadly force is absurd. You can argue the use of force. Thats fair. Police officers have the power to take a life. That is a power even the president of the United States doesnt have. And every incident should be looked at. But having said that, the gbi hadnt finished their investigation yet. Thats not due process either. This is a Deadly Weapon. Theres no question about it in the hands of someone untrained who just assaulted you, its a very Deadly Weapon. Let me ask you this too because i think thats a great point and powerfully stated. We also have another problem decides the double standard and judicial clarification of whats a Deadly Weapon. The Police Unions themselves appear to me to be problematic in that they protect some bad actors. It was brought up in one of the witnesss earlier about officer derri derrick chavin, he was protected by the unions after multiple complaints. We find a lot of times even officers where its difficult to fire them, its difficult with the unions to remove these bad actors and many times even if they are removed, many of them are reinstated. How series of an issue do you think these unions are and what do we do about it . Its very serious. And some of the panelists have had powerful comments. I dont disagree with everyone. The unions, the good and the bad of the unions, the bad quickly is obviously there are times that bad officers, really bad officers in the case of mr. Floyd, resulted in the death of mr. Floyd in that horrific video. Its hard to watch. If he was in any way protected by the union, yes, its beyond time for serious reform. Having said that, i would not recommend theyre not unions. Associations, whoofr you want to skaul th want to call them. There was an informal system, policing for profit and the people who spoke out against that because they were being forced to harass the citizens of the neighborhood i worked in were the benevolent associations. Asking to write a certain number of parking tickets. Having said that, its of great discussion. Im glad you brought it up and we need to sit down with the unions. Not everything they do is bad and i think we should be open to hearing all sides. What is the role of federal government with state and local Law Enforcement offices . Should the federal government be involved one size approach fits all, every district, every Police Department is different. Rural versus urban, inner city. Whats the role of the federal government in the state and local departments . I think the president s executive order is a good first step. Information sharing is a positive. We dont want bad Police Officers who are fired going and contaminating other Police Officers and Police Departments elsewhere. Information sharing is a must. Having said that, a big federal use of force plan, i think the president has it right using incentives. Think about it. I give this quick example. Having working in the secret service and the mipd, there were use of force techniques that we used in the service, thumb restraints that we learned to do to get them off. Thats not the kind of thing you would do as a Police Officer. When youre looking at saving the president from a disastrous situation, thats a use of force technique thats specific to the secret service. Think about that in terms of rural and urban areas, learning to file around buildings. I think the federal role should be to incentivize good documented use of force but to stay out of national edicts and let localities tailor it to their specific what they need to do, what their job function is. Thank you very much. Appreciate you being here. And i yield back. Thank you. I now recognize myself for five minutes for questions. On march 13th, 2020, four louisville Police Officers broke into Breonna Taylors home and shot her eight times in the dead of night. They were executing an arrest warrant for somebody they already had in custody and who did not live with Breonna Taylor or in the complex. Today, 98 days later, all four officers are still Police Officers in louisville. Eric garner was killed by an officer who held him in a choke hold. Choke holds were barred by the nypd. Mr. Garner cried, i cant breathe 11 times. The officer was never arrested. He kept his job for five years after mr. Garners death. Tamir rice was shot and killed by police two seconds after the officers arrived in the park where he was playing. The officer was responding to a neighbors call that a child was playing with a gun that was probably a fake gun. The officer was never arrested. These are tragically just a few of countless loved ones, children, brothers, sisters, mothers and friends lost to unnecessary Police Violence. For far too long, Police Officers who commit horrific abuses against black americans have not faced any consequences, not even when they take a life. I would like to ask ms. Herron, can you talk about the current lack of accountability for Police Misconduct. Thank you for that. I am happy to announce that today it was announced that one officer was fired today so thats a first step and i think that that happened because of these continuous pressure on citizens here in louisville and across the nation of demanding him to be arrested. But just like you said and explained, its superfrustrating when we know that Police Officers are engaging in misconduct and for many of the Police Officers weve seen across the nation, its not their first time, that things are building up and theres smaller all these Different Things that are happening. And so, you know and i think that a couple of people hit on this earlier today. We just want to make sure that police are held accountable and the only way theyre going to be held accountable is that if theres legislation that is put into place, that counteracts the protections that they have right now, i know many jurisdictions have police bill of rights and they have all of these other things that pretty much protect them and, you know, just like representative presley said earlier, if you are a lawyer or a doctor and you engage in such behaviors, then you will lose your license and no longer be able to practice. That is the same things that we want for Police Officers and that is simply to ensure that our communities do not continue to be brutalized and traumatized. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Lewis, can you briefly discuss the issues you have encountered in trying to introduce reform in tulsa . Thank you, madam chairwoman. Its been challenging as even the republicans have said. We do need to look at the fop, the internal order of police. Part of the problem is that firing an officer and also trying to get that particular officer decertified so they will not go to another department. You had mentioned tamir rice. The officer who killed tamir rice went to go work for another department, another agency. And i think part of the challenge is and to be frank, we have too many agencies in the local community. We have particular area in tulsa, we have possibly seven different agencies. All of those seven different agencies have to have each have their own set of policies. So to hold them accountable, for example, to hold them accountable, the Tulsa County Sheriffs Office has one set of policies, the tulsa Police Department has another set of policies. What we have done is asked for the all of Law Enforcement to publish your policies online so that all of the citizens can see that. But the tulsa Police Department has done it but the Sheriffs Department has not done it. So its just been a struggle just to go one step and those are the things that we go through daily just to hold them accountable, just to make sure that these officers who create these types of poison within the department, we currently right now have an officer who made National Headlines by pinning and saying that black people should be shot more and this particular officer has had a history of problems even writing an article in 2016, this is war after and then declare black lives matter a hate group. That officer is still an officer. That person also submitted to the minneapolis Police Department saying that we will go ahead and give you warrior style training after the mayor has banned the warrior or type of training. That particular Police Officer is a cancer within the department. Having that to be weeded out, you know, we went to the mayor, we went to the mayor and the chief of police and we just get the very passive type, well, we will go through a process. They need to have a zero policy, a zero policy where they are going at them and theyre saying, were not going to tolerate this and not you cannot bring on this type of behavior and poison other officers who are trying to do their job. Thank you. Pastor mcbride, can you discuss the notion that there are only a few bad apples in Police Departments that need to be identified and removed . Is this true or are there larger issues at work. I do not believe the average Police Officer is a bad person. I have family and loved ones who serve with honor and distinction. But the culture of policing turns too many good people into bad officers. 300 years of policing, we have yet to reach a consensus in this country that you cannot be a racist and be a cop. We have not agreed that you cannot be a cop and affiliate with white supremacist groups and kkk members and altright members. And so there are elements in Police Departments that must be rooted out at the core to preserve the Public Safety servants who do embrace a different and reimagined way of Public Safety. Our task has to be taking seriously part by part the kinds of Public Safety servants we want in a 21st century model, realizing that the root and culture of department turn good people into bad cops, purge those elements and lets reimagine those who remain in ways that move them from people who are using force to guardians, protectors, and bring in the ultimate modes of communitybased Public Safety that include our violence redestruction strategy. It was great to hear our republican member mention gun violence in our urban communities. We would love to have bipartisan support for the break the cycle of violence act. These strategies save lives without increasing Police Department, it decreases police budgets, and it keeps our young men and women and others from going to jail. There are solutions. But we must have the political will. We must have the imagination and we must have the fortitude to look at the institution, not the individual, root out the culture, and what remains will be a Public Safety system for the 21st century. Thank you. And i will keep saying their names Breonna Taylor, george floyd. I hope my colleagues will work with me to try to ensure we never have to add anyone else to this list. I now recognize the Ranking Member jim jordan for five minutes or as long as he would like to question. Mr. Jordan, youre recognized. Hello, can you hear me . Madam chair, can you hear me . I can hear you. I want to thank our Witnesses Today and for your testimony. Mr. Bongino you served in both the new york city Police Department and the scleeecret service, is that right . Can you hear me . I can now. Yes, sir, thats right. And in both of those organizations, theres a chain of command, is that accurate . Thats accurate. And ultimately the highest authority in a Police Department is the chief of police, is that true . Thats correct. And the police the police chief in our system has to answer to ultimately elected officials and so the police chief in any municipality answers to they answer to a mayor or in the case of the secret service, you answer to the president of the United States, the dhs secretary. In the case of municipal Police Departments, they answer to the mayor and the city council. Yeah, thats correct. They dont answer to the president of the United States. No. Not if theyre not federal entities, no. Right. Do you know who the mayor of minneapolis is . Jacob frey, i believe. Do you know if he happens to be a democrat or republican . Hes a democrat. Do you know who the mayor was before mr. Frey. A democrat. You would be right. M and she was a democrat. Do you know before that . It was a democrat. He was mayor for a long time. In fact you know the last time there was a republican mayor in minneapolis . A long, long time ago . 1963. Before i im getting old. Thats before i was born. So the last time we had a republican mayor, 1963. 50 some years ago. Its no theres the city council involved as well. 13 members of the minneapolis city council. Take a guess which party has the majority of the members of the city council . I guess that would be the democrats. You would be right. There are 13 members of the minneapolis city council. Wa 12 of the 13 wards are democrats. In ward two, that individual is not a democrat. But theyre not a republican either. Theyre in the green party. You have a city where completely controlled by the democrats. The city council is overwhelmingly democrat. And have been run by democrats for over 50 years. We have so many people on the left, in fact mr. Raskin referenced President Trump, so many people who want to blame the president for the tragedy that took place in minneapolis. Which i just find astounding. And now after that tragedy you have rioters, looters and antifa terrorists who destroy businesses do whats been estimated at 55 million in damages and across the country, weve had 700 Law Enforcement personnel injured in these protests and riots around the country. Somehow, that also is being blamed on President Trump. And their answer and their slogan, their statement is three words, defund the police. Which i found, again,s astounding. I think this this is the most insane policy proposal ive ever heard. Talk to me about the Defund Police concept. As a guy who wore the uniform, tell me how dangerous that is. Congressman, there are policies that we talk about and tax rates, whatever they may be, and a lot that is you can get a good account assistaant, what may do. If you support defund the police, ive said in the last hearing and ill say again, you should raise your right hand and take an oath to go to all the funerals youre going to see in your precinct. Make absolutely no mistake about this, i will say this on the record, i will say this on tape and broadcast this everywhere, people will die. Kids will die. Teenagers will die. Adults will die. Moms will die. Dads will die. Thats not just the first order of effects from the depolicing of neighborhoods. Were not just talking about less uniform presence on the street. When theres a uniform presence around, crime goes down. Why . Because smart people dont commit crimes in front of Police Officers. Im also talking about the brain drain. The latent print officers that god forbid your house is burglarized. And have years of experience of pulling fingerprints that will never be pulled. The officers trained in Sexual Assault to know how to talk to that woman or man in some cases and say, listen, what happened here . That trained Domestic Violence or child abuse officer whos interviewed hundreds of kids in these tragic situations that knows exactly when that child due to fear is trying to protect an abusive parent because theyve heard it 100 times before. Thats all going to go you want to defund that . Who you going to bring in . Youre going to bring in social workers. As i said in the hearing, i adore who social workers did. I did my graduate degree in psychology. They are not Police Officers. They are not on the front lines of these dangerous situations. I lived through broken windows, blownen windows policing. No one i respect what everybody said, and i mean that. Nobody is going to tell me that depolicing a neighborhood makes it saferment lived through the broken windows in one of the busiest, most highcrime areas in new york city, east brooklyn, largely black and hispanic where the good residents used to tap me on the shoulder and say, officer, please, dont tell them i said it, but there guys slinging crack on my corner and wont leave my family alone. Whats going to be your lecture to them about depolicing . Have a social worker come out . I sat on the damn corner and listened to it. Youre not going to tell me it didnt happen. That happened more than once. They deserve a Police Officer. Having said that, they deserve a good one. I understand the concerns, and they are legitimate. People will die if you support this abomination of a policy. I cant ask you in Strong Enough terms to please stop talking about this on the other side. It is a nightmare for me and any of the Good American citizens who just want a piece of this country and safety and security. Well said. Loss of people, loss of expertise leads to unsafe neighborhoods. You lived it. Youve seen it. Youve been you came in in your career where you saw that happening and you changed it because there was an increased police presence. Do you take them at their word . Weve had a lot of people in the last few weeks who said defund the police doesnt mean defund the police. I find that interesting. Its three words, defund the police. Yet they say thats not what it means. Do you take them at their word when they talk about this concept . Listen, i can only the gentlemans time has expired. But the gentleman may answer. I can only take them at their own words. Defund means defund. Police organizations are not charitable organizations. Theyre paid government employees. If youre not going to pay them, youre not going to have police and government employees. This is a simple understanding of the english language. If you dont mean it, defund if it, dont say it. Its as simple as that. Thank you for your service to the citizens and families in new york city and two the folks youve served and protected. And thank you for being with us today. I yield back. Chairman raskin for five minutes and following that the clerk will take over the process of letting members know who is next due to my ongoing connectivity issues. I am staying on until the end of this, but its hard with the connection that we have and not being able to see anyone. I yield to the distinguished chairman raskin and thank him for his hard work on developing this hearing we have today. Thank you, chairman raskin. Hey, thank you so much, chairwoman maloney. I first want to agree with my friend, mr. Heiss, about the vast superiority of our being in washington together. This covid19 pandemic, which has cost 117,000 american lives that we mourn, and sickened two Million People and brought our economy to its knees has caused real problems for congress. I hope we can get back quickly. I hope we have a meaningful testing and Contact Tracing strategy. And above all, i hope that every member of this committee and every other committee will wear a mask because that is becoming a serious obstacle and obstruction to our doing our business in congress. So i just want to agree with mr. Heiss about the importance of our getting back as quickly as possible. Professor crenshaw, it seems like whenever we get the nations attention through mass nonviolent peaceful protests and mobilization on the problem of Police Brutality, Police Violence, people want to change the subject. Do we have to overturn the Supreme Courts decision in roe versus wade or planned parenthood versus casey . Do we have to deal with the issue of abortion before we make policing safe for all of our citizens . Thank you, congressman. Absolutely not. And for those who are concerned about the lives and the welfare of black children, i couldnt agree more that we should bring their lives into the conversation. And heres how i would suggest we do so most of the women that i mentioned have children. And at least three of them lost their lives in front of their children. Two of them experienced their children being harmed by the Police Shooting and killing their mothers. So one would at least expect that if black children are of concern to anyone who is involved in this conversation, they would certainly start with the black children who were shot by the police. They might extend that concern to children who when their parents estates attempt to sue the police for the loss of their parents have not been able to secure any significant settlement to reflect who the loss of their parent means to them across their entire life. In the one case that i am aware of in which the jury provided a verdict in the killing of Corrine Gaines of 36 million for the injury to Corrine Gaines child and to the loss of their parental relationship, the judge ultimately overturned the jury verdict, citing for the first time immunity. So we would hope that there would be a concern about this matter and that deescalation also be tied to the fact that in many of these instances children and other family members are present. So i welcome the concern about children. I would hope that it would be placed where the actual violence is happening. Thank you very much, professor. Mr. Lewis mr. Bongino in his testimony said that people should stop talking about defunding the police because its endangering the police. I dont know of a Single Member of this committee or any other committee in the house whos made a speech on the house floor about this, who has advocated this for policy, who is championing defunding the police. Its the other side that keeps bringing it up as an obvious and irrelevant distraction from our George Floyd Justice in policing legislation which is about banning choke holds and strangleholds and racial ethnic profiling and developing a nationwide data base of Police Misconduct and so on. But we always start with banning the choke hold. And i see that mr. Bongino has something to say about that, too. In the wall street journal on december the 4th, mr. Lewis, he was quoted as saying this i can tell you hes talking about eric garner, about the strangulation and daegz of eric garner, i can tell you its not a trachea choke. Hes not closing off the windpipe because garner is oddly still talking. Saying you cant breathe means you can breathe. Saying you cant breathe means you can breathe. Now what is your reaction to officer bonginos statement there . And hes not going to be helpful for us to rebuild social consensus in the social contract in america . No, its not helpful at all. Thank you, congressman. Thats part of the problem. You know, language has power. When you have someone whos a decorated officer like mr. Bongino, you know, you have that power that exudes two of the office exudes to the officers who say i want to be like him. When you have a person in a choke hold it should be outlawed. Thats just if plain and simple. If a suspect is saying he cannot breathe, you take them at their word. They cannot breathe. It is not your duty to be a medical adviser to find out whether or not if theyre speaking that means they cant breathe. Should we wait for them to die before we believe them . Absolutely not. I mean, you know, their job is to preserve life. It should not be to take life. That should be their job. And unfortunately, many officers have the mentality im going home tonight, and i believe that that mentality creates this concept of im going to get you before you get me. And i understand there are neighborhoods where officers have heightened alert. When were talking about defunding or putting money in resources that are needed, in my opening testimony i talked about how little Mental Health training is given. Locally within tulsa, we have all heard in reference to we need more money, we need more cops, we need more funding. So just recently the mayor has held a new police unveiled a new police car wrap. That money is going to wrap new police cars. Could you imagine how much money could be given to Mental Health services . Deescalation, racial bias training . Thank you unfortunately, my times almost up. I want to make one final point which is in the heroes act, which we passed several weeks ago, the democratic majority has funded state and local government including police forces, First Responders, fire departments. Its our republican allies who refuse to support the heroes act, who refuse to put money into funding state and county and local government. And with that, madam chair, i will yield back. Thank you, mr. Raskin. Next well go to mr. Roy. Mr. Roy, you are now recognized. Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to join here. I wish we were all meeting in person. I cosponsored the remarks made by my friend, mr. Heiss, from georgia, and a few colleagues. I think its important to be able to gauge together to work through issues such as these. One thing i would point out to my friend from maryland, chairman raskin, chairman of the subcommittee i should say, that the heroes act that he laments not being passed was chock full of a significant amount of political priorities for the democrat majority in the house and was not a straightforward, simple piece of legislation, which im happy to work with my colleagues on, you know, straightforward bills like getting the ppp flexibility act passed and us having to work with my friend from minnesota on a bipartisan basis to do. I think this is the right approach. The heroes act was being jammed through at the last minute. Dropping a massive, multihundred thousand wharf, a bill with a lot of provisions in it and a significant amount of dollars attached to it with no real debate and significant input from the minoritior, frankly, the majority. We need to restore legislative order. We need to have debate, amendment. Lets get on the floor of the house. This isnt even a comment about the virus. This predates the virus. Lets get on the floor with simple, straightforward bills and offer amendments. Lets have debate on those amendments. Lets discuss them. Lets talk about what we need to do to make sure that police have the backing of the American People and the support that they need to do their job, but that were making sure liberty is become protected. We all want that. We want order and liberty. If you dont have one, you dont have the other in truth. And so with that and on that point, i would ask mr. Bongino if he could shed a little bit more light i may not have heard every question asked. But one of the things that has been ive been focusing on and trying to understand is two things that are bothering me. One is the extent to which Police Officers broadly are being painted with a broad brush stroke in a way that is und undermining their ability to do their job and painting with a brush that isnt fair for all members of the police. And then theres Something Like 60 someed someodd interaction. If you could comment on the studies a study in which 100,000 interactions were studied, and the vast majority of those, 99 , resulted in no force being applied. And of those in which force is applied, 98 resulted in either no injury or or some mild form of injury and narrow that down. I want to zero in on the problem. I want to zero in on whats actually occurring and then root out that problem. So if you can comment on that point, the point about the overall engagement between Law Enforcement and civilians throughout the nation and how we approach that with our Law Enforcement community. And secondly, what do we do to address bad actors, dirty cops . Ones that are doing it the wrong way. You know, where you have situations like we saw in minneapolis to be clear. Where youve got an officer who had 12 previous complaints, if ive got the number right in my head. I dont have it in front of me. And a significant number of complaints in the minneapolis Police Department, some of which were not necessarily pursued. How do we make sure that the right cops are on the beat . The right cops are there and the wrong ones are not . And i would appreciate your thoughts on both of those questions. Okay. On the first one, as was evidenced by mr. Raskin who entirely mischaracterized what i was trying to get across in the wall street journal interview because he has a lack of understanding about use of force. He wasnt a Police Officer, of course. What i was trying to get across in that interview with the wall street journal is theres a lot of misinformation out there about use of force when it comes to policing. Again, as we just sadly had to witness. I have the numbers here. 0. 0004 of police interactions, thats a zero a dismal point three more zeros and a four, actually result in the lethal use of force by a Police Officer. Again, all of those incidents are tragic. I dont support the Death Penalty after adjudication which offends some of my conservative friends, but thats okay. Having said that, these are not simple questions. The reasons Police Officers engage in use of force are very generous and unique to that situation and should be evaluated. They should be subjected to due process and review. Having stated that, this is not a simple question. When you throw out talking points like, hey, listen, we need to get rid of choke holds, have you thought that through . One what is a choke hold . When you ask members of congress and others they have no idea what it is. What i was trying to get across in the interview, are you talking about a tracheal choke hold or compression of a windpipe . If you are, thats very dangerous. Thats unquestionably deadly force and can be almost instant deadly force if applied wrong and with a lot of pressure. The point i was making in the interview is a tracheal choke hold is not a carotid restraint. They may look the same, but they look the same because youre not trained to apply either one, and you dont know what youre talking about. A carotid restraint is the compression of the carotid arteries on both sides of the neck. That technique is not dangerous. It is not dangerous if it was dangerous, there would be no mixed martial arts competitions when it happens every night or a jujitsu school in america where it happens hundreds of thousands of times they day. It is a very safely applied technique to render a subject temporarily unconscious so he stops attacking you. Its not something you play around with. It is not a tool to be casually thrown around in a parking ticket situation. But if youll notice in the Rayshard Brooks case where the man died, one of the officers appears to go for a neck restraint and let its go. Which later resulted in the implementation and use of a firearm. So for the members who want to throw out the term choke hold without determining what theyre talking about, a carotid or tracheal restraint, i ask a question question if you dont want to use that tool, whats your suggestion in impact beps and a friararm . You dont have a suggestion . Of course, because you dont know what youre talking about. Secondly, how do we get rid of bad cops . Universal body cameras are a start. They protect the Police Officer and the public. The public if theyre being harassed by a Police Officer should be able to go to the videotape. Secondly, as i indicated before are representative heiss, weve got to work with the Police Unions. Theyve got to the step up. Good cops know that. Weve got to stop protecting bad cops. Not only are they cheati increag harm but theyre damaging the reputations of the good cops who show up add to and evtoday and. Where im at in time. Its hard to track. If youll indulge a quick question, madam chair. One thing that i positive is that we need potentially more police forming relationships, walking beats, engaging, not fewer. Thats why i get concerned about defund. Talk about civil asset forfight uive been talking about that for years. Im sure my friend from maryland, we probably have agreements on a number of these areas with respect to civil liberties. One thing that society . Yes, i think thats a great question. The death of tragic death of mr. Garner was because of untaxed cigarettes. Again, im not suggesting we should get rid of every law and every regulation, but policing for profit has created a number of incendiary situations in the community that were entirely unnecessary. Thats a great question, and i agree with your assertion there wholeheartedly. Thank you thank you for the indulgence, madam chairman. We will go to miss norton next. Miss norton . I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here. Including i might add our police witness. I think it is very important to listen closely to the police, those of white house depend upon the police and to not take a slogan about the police is what this committee and all of us want from police. Listen to us, and i think we can get to what we need. I cannot help but have a question for mr. Lewis. He is from oklahoma. I think even from tulsa. And it is tulsa at a moment when were looking at Structural Racism and policing that is in the spotlight and not so much as much because of what happened in is happening in tulsa now as to what happened in tulsa in 1921. The president was forced to remove his rally from juneteenth, the day when africanamericans in some parts of the country including texas first understood that they had been emancipated. The reason that weve invited a witness from tulsa is not because of necessarily the because of what occurred in tulsa which is only now being recognized. Its probably fair to say that in no American Community has there been violence by police that equaled what happened in tulsa, a virtual massacre of africanamericans which is only now being recognized nationally and that largely because of the george floyd eyewitness killing. The reason that your city is of importance to this discussion is what had been built there before this massacre which occurred after an africanamerican was accused of killing a white person. Mr. Lewis, it is where the gl n greenwood section is, the black wall street. I understand theres still a search for the dead going on. Nobody was ever charged. The governor has invited the president to tour greenwood once he comes for this rally. Id like your reaction, mr. Lewis, or the reaction of the africanAmerican Community to the rally being held here in the first place. In light of the massacre that took place there, do you think that inviting the president there is for recognition of what happened there and perhaps to encourage greater recognition of what happened there . What is the reaction of the africanAmerican Community to this issue . Thank you, congresswoman. The africanamericans in tulsa are still reeling. I mean, we have descendants here that have not been able to say goodbye to their loved ones. There have been mass graves that the mayor has now commissioned a team to look for. This happened. Its a 1921 race massacre. And youre correct, congresswoman, in terms to massacre. They didnt have a chance. This was a black thriving community, black dollars laid the streets of greenwood. This was a thriving community, and it was gone by White Supremacy. White supremacists came in and destroyed this community. And 99 years later were still trying to hold on to those truths. And were still trying to hold on to rebuilding. The president coming to tulsa, oklahoma, was a slap in the face of those descendants. It was a slap in the face of africanamericans in this city. Africanamericans in oklahoma. We have heard the president s rhetoric, we have heard everything he has said, we have seen africanamericans have been used as pawns. We have seen that. Were not ignorant. We can walk and chew gum. One thing we are, we will not tolerate someone using us as props. So a lot of organizations have gotten together to put pressure back on the governor to say that we dont want him to come to greenwood. We dont want his people, and we know that the president travels with white supremacists. We do not want those people in greenwood. We have already experienced greenwood burned down by White Supremacy. Thats what we dont want. And we dont have it. We wont we will not have it. And one of the things that we love about our city is that we have always been peaceful. The only violence that has happened to our city has been brought by the hands of white supremacists. So what we do, we lock arms in love. We lock arms in patience and prayer and lift up the ancestors to let them know that were still fighting on their behalf. To date, compensation has not been given to any of the survivors or their members. Thats something that we have to look for. We have to look forward to say that something has to be done. Were preserving whatever legacy that we have and trying to build for from. So the president did not make juneteenth popular. He did not make greenwood popular. I urge everyone to please go and do your research. Please go up and look at the 1921 race massacre. Please go and find out about greenwood. Come tour and find out more find out how this thriving city was once dubbed little africa. Thank you. Thank you very much. Will be there demonstrations today . Will you be locking arms or otherwise recognizing what happened there in 1921 . Yes. There will be several demonstrations, a lot of demonstrations will be there. Theres groups who always go through ceremonial libations to give credence to the ancestors, those who are burned. There will be tours, there will be i think the reverend al sharpton will be there to speak. Its going to be a celebration. And we celebrate juneteenth here in tulsa, and it is not a misnomer. We celebrate that. We want everyone to know that tulsa is a beaconing of hope and beaconing of light. We also have to let people know that we will not tolerate any form of White Supremacy in our community. Thank you very much, mr. Lewis. Very important testimony for this hearing. Thank you, miss norton. Next we will go to mr. Lynch. Thank you. Can you hear me . Yes, sir. Oh, thank you so much. First of all, i want to thank the chair, thank you, miss maloney, thank you chairman raskin and miss presley, thank you for your perspective. Very, very helpful and valuable. I want to thank you our witnesses. On the mask and the going down to d. C. And doing the hearings live which i i missed, i did attend for the last two days for 20 hours a mockup at im on the transportation and infrastructure committee, as well. And i i am concerned because while i did go down there and wear a mask, many of my republican colleagues did not wear a mask. So i think we need to get together on that. Its to protect each other. And so if if the last couple of days down in d. C. , if that hearing was an example of whats going on, you know, i would be very leery about getting into that situation again if a lot of people are not going to wear masks. Lets protect each other and wear masks, and do our work. My subcommittee is i want to thank the witnesses. My subcommittee is really on national security. So i have much more experience after this, you know, ive got 30 trips to iraq, ive got, you know, 15 trips to afghanistan, yemen, sudan, mali, somalia. Most of my experience is looking at the treatment of detainees in the military context. Ive reviewed a lot of rules of engagement cases for our sons and daughters in uniform overseas and less so on the domestic side. But i was stunned when i read the use of force policy in minneapolis that the use of force policy that called for rendering an unarmed detainee unconscio unconscious, you know, would vile at the rules of engagement for u. S. Ground forces in afghanistan and iraq and yells where around the world. It would also violate the geneva convention. So i was very surprised to hear mr. Bonginos remarks about a Police Officer on the street rendering a detainee unconscious. And i really do think we need to look at that policy, that choke hold policy. There are only two people who are authorized right now to render an individual unconscious. That is a Police Officer, apparently under this use of force policy thats active in minneapolis, and anesthesiologist. One works on the street and will do it on a sidewalk. The other one goes through 12 years of training and does that in a hospital setting with huge implications for liability. And i just do not i do not believe that we should have a policy look, weve got 16,000 Police Departments across the country including sheriffs offices and that. We put folks through police academy. But we do not think about that we do not train our Police Officers to the degree where we can safely assume that they can render a person on the street in the middle of a struggle unconscious. The margin of error there between rendering a person unconscious and strangling him like what happened in minneapolis and with eric garner and others, is is just unacceptable. We cannot in good conscience continue that practice. So i know that mr. Lewis, you remarked earlier on governor bakers new Police Reform policies. And i was wondering if you would want to comment on that thats my state. I work with governor baker regularly. I support his prospective and his policy. Im just wondering if you want to elaborate on that . You seem to be well versed in that. You might be muted. Im sorry, mr. Lewis. Are you able to hear me . Now, yep. Okay. Great. Sorry about that. Thank you, congressman. Decertification is definitely i feel is a big solution. If we can start decertifying these officers, we will not have them go to smaller agencies. Thats typically what happens. You know, you have officers who are in these largerati agenciesd the larger agencies have spent so much money training them. They can quit and go to a smaller agency, and that small agency may not have the funding that they need, so they will go ahead and get these people who are decorated officers trained. But yet they have a track record. That officer should have been e defiey decertified prior to going to that agency. We know that use of force goes to excessive use of force, and it goes to killing and death. Thats a pattern. And if we can stop it in the beginning, we will not have officers choking a person, a citizen, in streets because there was a pattern that was there. So my solution was like the governor is to go out and try to find out whats going on with these officers and lets decertify them so they will never become a Police Officer in that particular field, and they will not create harm going forward. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you for your indulgence. Thank you. Thank you. Next wlooe will go to mr. Conle. Thank you, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. I particularly want to thank the passion our colleague from massachusetts, miss presley, expressed. I wish every american could hear it. And i also want to thank mr. Raskin for his eloquence in putting in context what were dealing with today. Not a new issue, unfortunately. Mr. Bongino, im going to ask you to keep your answer brief because i only have five minutes. Is it your position that there is systemic racism that needs to be rooted out in Law Enforcement, or its just a few bad apples who need to be pulled . My position is, yes, racism exists. But thankfully its isolated and becoming more so. Yeah. I dont think any of the other i dont think any of your fellow panelists would agree with that. I think they would say its systemic, and it needs to be addressed on a much more fundamental way than simply calling out some of the bad actors. The problem is although the overwhelming majority of men and women in Law Enforcement may be good people, the institution reinforces racism. The institution allows with impunity excessive use of force, particularly aimed at people of color. That seems to be a fact, not just an opinion. Let me ask mr. Crenshaw and mr. Lewis. It seems to me that were dealing with a culture of impunity so that when a particular Police Officer is charged if that ever happens with brutality or lethal use of force that was excessive and unjustified, what happens culturally is a circle the wagons kind of mentality. And thats the impunity. For example, weve seen that right now. In buffalo we saw a a squad of 57 resigned from a special unit in protest to the fact that one of their own had been charged with lethal force, unjustified force that led to a concussion and the inability of the victim to walk. A person, by the way, accused of being antifa who, in fact, was somebody associated with catholic social justice movement. An older man, 75 years old, cracked his skull and cant walk. And then after that when he was arraigned in court, a number of his colleagues on the Police Department came out to applaud him for walking out of the courthouse. As if they they fully supported his use of Excessive Force. We saw Police Officers in louisville turn their backs on the mayor because the mayor dared to simply say i think we have to have some fundamental reforms. Weve seen new york police call in with the blue flu in protest to the fact that theyre being held accountable at all. Historically weve seen Police Unions, fop, police associations, in aggregate oppose body cameras for more accountability, oppose civilian review control panels for more accountability and consistently defending and reinstating cops who had repeatedly been charged with brutality especially brutality against people of color. How do we get to a culture of accountability when were still denying that this is a fundamental, structural problem . And secondly, we built a culture of impunity that resists at all costs any kind of accountability. Thank you, congressman, for that important question. And i couldnt agree more with your assessment of how the culture reinforces the lack of accountability. Lets take, for example, the head of the union in minneapolis. He has had more than 20 complaints against him. Hes been involved in three shootings. He said he doesnt feel a thing about that. And in fact is proud of it. So you know, it may well be the fact that there are a few bad apples in the sense that there are those who are willing to resort to violence in circumstances that are quite questionable. The institutionalized dimension of it is the fact that that kind of behavior is not punished, but it is rewarded. So those officers who are able to rise up the ranks by having this attitude, that theyre actually at war with the people that they are meant to serve. And let me just underscore the notion of the unions actually created in collective bargaining. Particular preferences for potential wrongdoing that Police Officers might do that no one else gets, no one else gets the opportunity to take two or three days before they have to testify or say what happens. No one else gets a chance to hold on to their jobs unless there is concrete evidence of wrongdoing such as a video of them doing something wrong. But yet turning off their video isnt enough for the presumption to be that, well, perhaps you have done something wrong, so you have to take the risk if you turn off your video and cannot provide the proof of what happened. So we need to roll back the conception thats have been made to Police Unions. We have to create incentives so that communities that have real limits on what can be negotiated away this terms of the rights of individuals to be able to have cases against Police Officers proceed in the same way that they would proceed if it was anyone else. Would you allow mr. Lewis to answer the question . And i would yield back. Thank you. I believe that when there are investigations, that should be public. The general public shouldnt know if their officers are under investigation. Thats something that the general opinion doesnt know. A lot of this stuff comes out after the officer is terminated or something has happened on the media, then we look back into their past. That should not be a personnel record. That should be general public information. The accountability of the blue line i am sorry, but i call them a gang. Sometimes they have the mentality that theyre going to go no one crosses this blue line. Ive seen other officers and even right now i believe her name is Carolyn Horne in buffalo. She lost her job because she tried to correct an officer, and she lost her job for that. And now we have the mayor of buffalo whos going to reopen that and try to get her job back. So there are good officers, but they get penalized when they go off when they try to do the right thing. How do we stop this culture . In my opinion, it starts from the head. It starts from the elected official. In most municipalities, the mayor is over the Police Department. I want this panel to understand that the Sheriffs Department has absolute power. There is no one over the sheriff. Ha thats something we need to revisit because that is the first form of Law Enforcement is the Sheriffs Department. I field back. Thank you. Next we will go to miss wasserman shultz. Thank you, thank you very much. On friday, may 29th, the morning after protesters and Police Clashed in minneapolis, President Trump took to twitter to declare that thugs were dishonoring the member of george floyd and asserted that when the looting starts, the shooting starts. I want to ask sort of a rapidfire series of questions because i want to really establish the impact that it has on the overall cascade of events that follow and the choices that people make with their words really shape the direction that that the protests and the followup to an egregious act like the murder of mr. Floyd did can go. Professor crenshaw, can you tell us the historical roots of that statement when the looting starts, the shooting starts just believe and whriefly and w president was invoking . Yes, thank you so much for the question. The statement basically refers to the historical fact that Law Enforcement was used and continued to be used by mayors and other government officials reinforcing White Supremacy. Specifically it was a phrase by walter headley, the chief of police in miami, florida, who was basically using that as a warning, a threat, a justification about the use of violence against those who were seen as lawbreakers. Lets be clear when were talking about lawbreakers, we are basically talking about individuals and groups who were protesting discrimination, protesting White Supremacy, the history that were talking about is that history. The history of really even turning Law Enforcement against Martin Luther king. Thank you, thank you we need to be clear about this. Yes. And being that i represent part of Miamidade County and the rule that you never ask a question if you dont know the answer to, i appreciate having an expert actually articulate that answer. Thank you so much. Mr. Lewis, what does it mean to you when you hear the looting starts, the shooting starts . Dog whistles. We know that that means. We hear it in the media constantly. We know exactly what group theyre talking about. Theyre talking about minorities. And you know, its an insult. And minorities are not the ones who are just always looting. Its an insult. Thank you. Its ridiculous the president later attempted to clarify his remarks by saying it was spoken as a fact, not a statement, and said nobody should have any problem other than the haters and those looking to cause trouble on social media. Which leads me to jump to that there have been countless nationwide protests in this administration, the womens march, protests against the muslim ban, the the march that took place after the Marjorie Stoneman douglas shooting, marches against bans on banning kids in cages. And you notice the administration didnt react to any of those protests. Professor crenshaw, why do you think governments reacted to protests on Racial Justice so differently . And i want to zero in on that theres a double standard that we see from the Trump Administration which is appears to be rooted in racism. No matter what tactics they use, the Trump Administration always seems to really zero in on a an inappropriate, overthetop, unacceptable, ratebaiting reaction, when it is people of color that are protesting. Yet the other protests that pack hundreds of thousands and in one case a Million People, nothing. Where do you think that comes from . Congresswoman, that double standard has many of us deeply in despair. Partly because its a continuation of a double standard, so lets just be clear. Over the course of history when black people have protested discrimination, that protest has been seen as out of order. Our own fbi called Martin Luther king the greatest threat to the security of america. But it extends even today where you have a category called black identity extremism. Thats been applied to black lives matter people. Theyve been framed as a deep threat. And sometimes that frame has actually even extended beyond the kkk and other white supremacist organizations that are thank you. Just really quickly, would you agree that the language from the white house wasnt mere words but reflective of how the administration pleases black americans . Absolutely. When i hear those words, i hear property over people. I think that that is something that we have seen historically in our nation, and definitely something that the current president what he lives by. Thank you, i appreciate the indulgence, and i yield back. Thank you. Next we will to ms. Kelly. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you for having this hearing, and thank you to all the witnesses, and thank you for your patience because i do represent the chicagoland area, i am compelled to comment on what my colleagues said when he talk about the people that recently were shot in chicago. Then he also talked about the unborn children losing their lives. I find it so very interesting that comments are made about that because i ran on gun violence prevention. And since i have been in congress seven years, it took to win the democrats when the democrats took over to even get a vote on having background checks or closing the charleston loophole. Very, very few republicans voted for those bills. And i have an eternal mortality bill where all women too many women have died, but black women have died three to four times the rate of white women in illinois, six times the rate. I could not get one republican on my bill called the mamas act. So its interesting to me that they talk about how much they care, but when given the opportunity to save lives they have not done that. Miss crenshaw, i want you to know that my office participated in the say her name tweet yesterday for 12 hours. We almost had every slot filled in 15minute increments. We put it out there. I want to thank all of you for what youre doing. What i want to know is is this a moment, or is something going to really happen . What do you think . And and why has this really i guess gotten to the soul of americans it seems like . Mr. Johnson miss crenshaw . This is the question of the hour is this a moverment, or is this a moment . I think there are indications that this may, in fact, be more than a moment. Partly because as has been mentioned by many people today, when the police were actually in everybodys view and we could see exactly how the police in many of these cities were reacting, one didnt have to go back to old videos. One didnt have to just trust our testimony. For so long, the idea was because its happening out of sight, out of mind, we cant really get society to look seriously at the problem. For two weeks every day, seven days a week, there was plenty to see. And it was important that it was not just pictures of africanamericans that were under the baton as it were, but even White Americans and others who came out to protest. I think that vision was abundantly clear. And it gives us the text from which to see so many things that have not been legible until this moment. Mr. Lewis . Okay. Yes. I dont believe that this is a fading moment. People are tired. And wee talked about the institution of racism which is the foundation of this country. And i want to definitely make sure that everyone is aware about crystal mason. She is about to serve five years in prison for just voting. Thats the institution of racism that we had. So i want to make sure that we understand that this is not a fleeting moment. We are here, weve captivating it. When i first started, i will give you my own testimony. When i first started, people who were on the opposite side said, oh, mark, youre wrong, something thats not fair. They were so propolice and against they thought i was the problem. Those same people are coming back to me and saying im sorry, i thought it was that. Thank you. Right. Ms. Heron . Yes. I definitely think that what youre seeing right now, that it is a movement, and it is more than the moment. I know that for us here in kentucky, we have seen our young people lead. We are ive seen across the nation our young black folks lead. And i think one thing that is important is that when we see some of the movements with young folks, some of the gun violence things with young folks, the black voice has been left out. The black voice is not going away any time soon. I think that what youre seeing is that people have to look into the voice now. And our young people are not going to stop. Upon and this is their nation, their society, raising kids paying taxes and being the next legislators. Ive run out of time. I dont know if theyll let the two other witnesses speak, but thank you so much. Thanks. Were all in this together. Thank you, miss kelly. Next we will go to mr. Grossman. Hi. Im not aiming this at anybody in particular. I have a long history in politics, but i was in the state legislature, and i had a bill about 12 years ago making it easier to get rid of a bad Police Officer. I got almost no help at the time. I got i did get one democrat senator to sign on. But im very propolice, but i think even the good police dont want to protect the bad police. But sometimes the power of the police union and politicians going to bat for them are a problem, and its particularly a problem in big cities, and there are rurmts that that was a big problem in minneapolis that never resulted in this death. Could somebody comment on why we have you know, a lot of you here live in big cities. Why why so many people vote for politicians in big cities who really as part of their campaign, their major goal is to help the uniowens or one of the goals is to help the unions protect the worst actors. Do you have a reason why historically thats been true . Why those politicians have a tendency to get elected in big urban cities . I will just say that i believe it is because we have not yet created a robust imagination for the electorate to understand this has been going on for this has been going on for like 20 years. My bill came out 13 years ago. Its not a new thing. I mean, it seems by design and for the last 50 years the inability to understand Public Safety beyond policing for the electorate allows politicians to only dependond that one tool exclusively and not paint a broad picture for folks to imagine that we can indeed have Public Safety beyond policing. And so i think elected officials are afraid of the Police Unions because people in our community do not understand that we can, indeed, implement strategies that can make our communities safe. Okay. Okay. My next question, i do want to point out on behalf of people in my district who come from all over the world, they always bracele at the idea that we have a racist society. You understand not everybody feels that way. I talked to people from who come from all over the world and are making it. And they when they compare america to their countries at home, they feel it is so much easier to be a success in america than in ashe asia, southeast asia, africa, what have you. At least my experience in my district is with people who have done very well despite coming here and not even being able to speak the language, having a different religion. You know, can just look at they dont look european at all. And they make it all the way. I think we can go overboard in saying that its difficult to make it in america if youre not a european background because many people make it. In my district, so many make it. They take it as a little bit of an insult to america when they imply that you cant make it. Question for ms. Heron. I see behind you youve got a picture of angela davis. And you know, i know what her politics are. It kind of concerns me a little bit. Do you do you buy into her politics . Absolutely, angela davis is someone that i have looked up to. I have studied, and i admire her as a black woman and her fighting for black folks to be free. She is definitely someone that i am hone into a daily basis to ensure that as i fight this tight that i am well protected and have the knowledge i need. One thing i would like to say is historically black folks are the own folks in this nation who have been enslaved that way. When were talking about what things need to do and what things need to change, its that while were on the backs of black slaves, and our policies that have been created whether it was in health care, whether its in criminal justice, have been and to keep black folks oppressed. Until we address those systemic policies on the federal level and on the local level, were going to okay, thanks that issue thanks. One final question. One of the things like i said, i was trying to make it easier to get rid of a bad cop about 14 years ago before it was fashionable. One of the things that frustrates me in my district, does not include the city of milwaukee but is ad jaysect to the city of milwaukee, our murders are up like 20 more than this time last year. Including somebody ive heard a little bit about who died working at an allnight gas station, the kind of late into the morning after a black lives matter demonstration. And like i said, 20 more people have died this year than last year. Nevertheless, were having hearings, and everybody cares about as well they should if anywhere bad problems, about the gentleman that died in minnesota. We have so many people dying in milwaukee. We had a weekend, a few weekends ago, where we had 30 people dying in chicago. And it makes people like me wonder a little bit where is the outrage when people die on the north side of milwaukee or the south and west side of chicago, other than guns. I dont blame guns as being the answer. Guns is part of our constitution. We have guns forever. Guns in my district, we dont have a high murder rate. Where is the outrage over these deaths which are so wildly more than the handful of deaths at police . It frustrates me when i see, you know, to me i dont know why black lives matter cant take a gofundme page or something for the people who have died kind of in the the aftermath of the protests. Why is there not more outrage or sympathy for this much larger group of people who are dying . There is outrage and there is sympathy. I work with people in milwaukee, reggie moore, the 414 for life, and they literally walk every time there are people who are killed. There are outrajts in the conversations, outrages in the home. People are weeping at the loss of life. It is often not covered by the press. I do believe that we should continue to ask these kind of questions but also lift up up solutions. We have solutions. The urban progress act is a solution. Scaling up gun violence prevention programs is a solution. If in milwaukee they were resourced to the full extent of their budget, we could eliminate those kind of shootings. I just want to push back on this idea your time as expired. Okay. Do i have one more question . Your time has expired. Next we will go to ms. Porter. Hello, thank you all for being here. My colleague on the other side of the aisle just referenced the gentleman from minneapolis who died. Say his name. George floyd. That is who died. And that is whats prompting this long overdue continued National Discussion about what were going to do about the systemic racism in this country which manifests itself in our Police System but so many other aspects of your country as well. I wanted to talk today on june 19th, on juneteenth, an important, significant day in our countrys history, for all of us, but especially for our black community. Most people really dont know about juneteenth. I know growing up in rural iowa, in the 1980s, we didnt learn what juneteenth was in school and even as i went off to college and was an american studies major, even my own exposure to black studies and the africanAmerican Experience in this country was more limited than it should have been. This really hasnt changed today. In 2017, the Southern Poverty Law Center surveyed teachers and students to understand how american slavery is taught in our schools. And the findings were alarming. More than a third of students thought that the emancipation proclamation ended slavery. Not the 13th amendment. They werent aware of that. Nearly 60 of teachers didnt believe that their textbooks coverage of slavery was adequate. I wont get into how our teachers are constrained by curriculums and testing. There are so many parts of this countrys history that we have intentionally overlooked, that we have shielded ourselves from viewing, that we have hidden our eyes from seeing that have been wiped from our history books. Professor, i wanted to ask you about how we can improve education both for children and for adults about systemic racism a in our communities. Can you briefly explain to everyone what intersectionalty is . Thank you for that question. Intersectionalty is a framework for understanding the way that racism, sexism and other forms of illegitimate discrimination actually come together to create burdens, obstacles and experiences that are greater than the sum of its parts. Its basically to say that if you have an understanding of racism that doesnt look at the way race plays out across gender, its limited. If youre understanding a sexism, doesnt look at its intersections with race, its a partial understanding. And i think we can see many of these examples in the conversation about policing. One issue that i mentioned earlier was sexual abuse against black women. There was a case in which a Police Officer in Oklahoma City was accused of raping 13 black women. That is an intersectional vulnerability. But many of the organizations that fight against interpersonal violence dont see interpersonal violence when it happens by a Police Officer as part of their agenda and some who fight against antiblack racism dont often see how that intersects with sexism. So basically, intersectionalty is saying, lets broaden the way we think about this issue because that will help us see it more clearly. If we can see it more clearly, our solutions will follow suit. Thank you very much for that. How can we integrate intersectionalty into educational curriculum. I have seen from my education to my childrens education, more effort to teach about different cultures, people, but its treated as a unit, like this is our unit on this. This is our month on this. How can it intersectionalty help us create a more rich curriculum that recognizes that the experiences of black americans are the experiences of americans and this ought to be woven throughout our studies rather than treated as a special topic. That is the essential question of the moment. How do we take this energy and the conversations that were having and make them a fundamental part of what we teach our children. And i will say, that one of the challenges of intersectionalty and a broader structural race understanding is that many parents and some School Districts really dont feel comfortable with sbar interrogating our past. To put a case in point, the africanamerican policy forum has an unequal opportunity race video. Its on youtube. People who used it in black history month. Theyve used it in other occasions to try to show people when an entire group of people has been cut out and not allowed to participate, even formally until 1965, that shapes everything. Parents got upset about this in one local district and the school board with drew the unequal Community Race and called it a white guilt video. So looking honestly at history is often framed as generating white guilt and that creates the massive ignorance that we see across American Society about how race and racism has shaped the baselines that now everybody takes for granted. Thank you very much, everyone, for being here. My time is expired. Thank you, ms. Porter. Next we will go to mr. Raskin. Wait a minute, back to maloney too. Ms. Maloney. First of all, were waiting for Jackie Speier. Its good to see all of my colleagues. I will be seeing each other together next week and voting for this important bill. While were waiting for Jackie Speier, were trying to find her, can i would like to ask mr. Johnson, im so glad to have you here today. You have spent years advocating on behalf of your nephew and families across the country who have lost loved ones. As we consider next step a sweeping reforms, what do you and those families want members of congress to know . Today here on the west coast the question was asked the question was asked is this a movement or a moment. Today on the west coast, all 29 courts are shut down for eight hours in regards to Police Accountability and transparency. The iow local 10 has stopped work today. International cargo coming into the west coast cannot enter because of what we are witnessing happening to people of color when it comes to dealing with police and the failure to be held accountable and the failure of transparency being given. I dont want us to forget ayanna jones. Killed in detroit the same way breonna cau breonna was killed. And from our fraailure to learn from these murders, Breonna Taylor was murdered. 107 years old, and yet a s. W. A. T. Kicked down his door and murdered him. No person of color irregardless of your age is excused from being murdered by these rogue Police Officers. And, again, we know theres good Police Officers exist. However, the good Police Officers need to hear our cry and that is, to become accountable to hold those bad officers accountable and to begin to have them removed from the system and accountability with that type of help where it eradicates the problems that we have today. Its also important to also understand that i believe that though i have fought for legislation for the last seven, eight years, use of force Data Collection in the state of california to the department of justice, racial identify profiling act, up to sb1421, the right to know, the audio release and just recently, use of force legislation in the nation. Ab92. The question is, are agencies abiding by the laws that are being passed . I say no. And so it requires on a National Level that the department of justice did involve to create National Legislation that these agencies are held accountable to abide by. That in itself would begin the help, i hope, begin to end the murders that we see happening by these rogue Police Officers. But its a callout from those family members that the good officers come on our side and begin to cross that blue line so those bad officers can be arrested, charged, convicted and sent to jail. The murder of my nephew is the only officer in the state of california, the most deadliest state in this country, to ever been arrested, charged, convicted and sent to jail. He only did 11 months. That takes us to the other question. Just because we get an officer arrested and convicted does not mean that the da system does not fail, it does not mean that the judges that sit on these cases does not as robert perry claimed, give the jury instructions and reduce the time that they supposed to do which happens on a regular and consistent basis. We have much work to do, but i believe that there is a Real Movement that has taken place. When labor comes on board, we were really see the impact of this movement. Thank you so much. I believe Jackie Speier is available now. Is that correct . Hello . Madam chair, can you hear me . I can. Thank you. I want to thank you, madam chair for bringing this powerful panel together. I have just one question and it probably should be addressed to into the death of so many of these innocent victims is the the number of guns we have in the United States. When you look at the number of deaths due deaths by Police Officers per year [ inaudible ] and canada its none. And im curious from the panelists to what extent do we also attribute this brutality to the fact that there are so many guns in our society . It is without a doubt it is without a doubt that proliferation of weapons in the United States is certainly an issue and yet we know that there are ways and strategies to reduce gun violence in our country without having to fall into Second Amendment fights. And so we do believe that the strategies that have been championed by so many across the country, cities like oakland, stock t stockton have decreased gun violence in their cities by 30 on the low end and 70 on the high end in less than 24 months. A comprehensive gun violence prevention strategy we think is about limiting the illegal trafficking of weapons but also scaling up Public Health intervention that can leverage the tax base of our municipalities in ways that help us rely less and less on the kinds of policing strategies that cause civil rights abuses, that cause the kind of criminalization and collective punishment of all communities. So these strategies are at our disposal. The breaking the cycle of violence act is a wonderful start. We hope we can indeed talk about the solution to those fears being these strategies that are championed by so many across the country. Any of the other panel lists want to answer that question too . I think i would like to just point out a couple of problems with the way in which much of the conversation about gun violence undervalues the concerns of africanamerican gun owners. There seems to be a functional reality that africanamerican gun owners are basically operating under a sort of lower form of production, of their Second Amendment. Breonna taylors boyfriend was initially arrested and charged with attempted murder because he exercised what he thought was his right to protect his family for what looked like a breakin. The same thing has happened with philando castile. And karine gains had a registered firearm which she initially said she had when she thought the police were breaking into her home. She ended up being killed after facebook turned off her stream of her effort to protect herself and her child. While it is utterly significant and important to be concerned about gun violence, its also important to be concerned about what appears to be the disparity. No one i know thinks that africanamericans could march into a State Capitol and have a standoff with officers with legislators inside holding guns. We very much are concerned about the disparity and asymmetry in those Second Amendment rights. Thank you. Thank you, madam chairwoman. Recognized for question . Jackie, are you finished . Yes. Mr. Raskin is recognized for a question. Thank you, madam chair. I have one final question for reverend mcbride. Professor crenshaw made the point that too often people interpret the effort to educate about the actual history of our country as an effort to pose guilt on white people. And i saw a speech where he said that this moment in our history is not about assigning guilt and punishment to the mass population. Its about liberation and about us liberating ourselves from the injustices and the cruelties of the past and i wonder, this occurred to me when i had a constituent who called who was a republican, whose children had gone down to protest at the white house and they got caught up in that Unidentified Police paramilitary riot that bill barr and President Trump unleashed on the protestors in Lafayette Square with rubber bullets and tear gas and pepper spray, and he said that he could not believe that his family was treated like that. Im wondering if you would reflect about whats in this not just for the africanAmerican Community, but for all americans, for us to takeaway this power of arbitrary violence that the police or some Police Officers have irrigated to themselves. Im convinced, as a victim of violence and even as someone who has worked with Law Enforcement officers on Justice Training and even forms of training, that violence erases your humanity. It erases your capacity to have compassion. It erases your ability to respond to people with gentleness, tenderness and patience. It steals your soul and it steals your heart. And i believe that the importance of this country as dr. King says, the greatest exporter of violence in the world is the United States government. The apparatus and the appendages of our government at the local and even National Level must become less addicted to violence so our souls can be redeemed and our bodies can be saved. Its all of us at this moment. We have an opportunity to do what 300 years of previous lawmakers and citizens have been unable to do. To begin to build a community and a system and a structure and a nation that is not dominated by the forces of violence and dehumanization that is at work and it is ubiquitous. I say to all of our countrymen, countrywomen, loved ones, that violence is not the way for us to secure peace. It is an illusion that violence must be the solution for the kinds of issues we are facing. There are other ways to use our tax dollars, our talents, our gifts, our human ingenuity to solve our conditions. Violence cannot be our tool. I must be our ultimate, ultimate last resort. Right now it is our first option in too many instances. Thank you very much. Thats a beautiful invocation of dr. King. We have got to move towards nonviolence and society. I yield back, madam chair. Thank you. I want to thank all of our briefers. You are all very insightful and inspiring. We thank you for being here today and i just want to respond to uncle bobbys statement that impacted people do have a voice. We will not forget what you feel, what youve gone through and what youve expressed today. And we are grateful to all of you for your presence, voice and everything that youve expressed today. I encourage all of my colleagues to vote for the George Floyd Justice and policing act. We must not let this moment pass us by and in the words of our former chairman Elijah Cummings, we can and we must do better. I thank all the members, i especially thank our briefers today for their insight, their experience, their wisdom and we will carry that to the floor of Congress Next week and the passage of this important bill. Tonight on American History tv, our series, landmark cases, produced in cooperation with the National Constitution center, we explore the places, issues and people involved in some of the most significant Supreme Court cases in our nations history. We begin with youngstown sheet and tube Company Holding that the president did not have authority to seize private steel mills even during wartime. And brown v. Board of education. Segregated schools could never be equal. Watch landmark cases tonight on cspan3 and any time on cspan. Org. Treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin appears before the House Small Business Committee on oversight of the Small Business administration and department of treasury pandemic program. Live coverage begins friday at 10 30 a. M. On cspan. Later this month, william barr appears before the house judiciarys committee general Oversight Committee on the Justice Department. On tuesday, july 28th, watch live coverage of the hearing on cspan. Watch time with the cspan radio app. Next we hear about the verses about the coronavirus pandemic. Let me start over. The suom