Transcripts For CSPAN3 Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day OConnors Judicial Impact 20240713

Privilege of welcoming the second and the third. Were extraordinarily grateful to justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor to join us to honor Sandra Day Oconnor. It turns out that Justice Ginsberg and Justice Oconnor share an unusual distinction and that is interesting nicknames. When Justice Oconnor was confirmed she earned the moniker fwotsc for first woman on the Supreme Court. Justice ginsburg has been kroub crowned the notorious rbg. Ill leave it to you to decide which one is catchier. They share a lifelong commitment to expanding opportunities for women. It makes sense when Justice Ginsburg joins Justice Oconnor on the bench in 1993, the two bonded over their historic role in transforming the Supreme Court. Both justices had to overcome discrimination and professional rejection, but Justice Oconnor once put a helpful spin on it if they had come of age when women could easily be lawyers, she told Justice Ginsburg, they would probably end up as retired partners at some law firm. But because that route was not open to us, Justice Oconnor explained, we had to find another way and we both ended up in the United States Supreme Court. One woman they inspired was a young attorney in manhattan. She had been working in the das office in 1981 when she heard president reagan had nominated Sandra Day Oconnor. Just two years earlier, she and her law School Classmates had wondered aloud if they would ever see a woman on the Supreme Court in their lifetimes. Little did Sonia Sotomayor imagine that 20 years later she would become the third woman on the court and make history in her own right as the first latina judge you the. These three women come from very different backgrounds. One grew up shooting jack rabbits on a ranch in arizona. One is descendents of jewish immigrants and the other visited her parents native puerto rico. They followed three separate paths to the american dream, but ended up in the same place as accomplished lawyers, courageous trail blazers, inspiring role models and associate justices of the Supreme Court. Were deeply grateful to them for all that they have done and all they represent. Joining us justices ginsburg and sotomayor on stage this evening is Reagan Foundation trustee and former solicitor general ted olsen. Ted has argued more than 60 cases before the Supreme Court, so hes used to taking questions from justices ginsburg and sotomayor. But tonight the table it is are turned. Ted finally gets to ask the questions. And that may be why hes worked so hard to help organize this event. We are deeply grateful to his efforts for making todays conversation possible. So, now, ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming the honorable associate justices of the Supreme Court, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor. [applause] thank you, everyone. Please, be seated. Please, be seated. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Sit down. I know most of that was for the justices. We are so honored at the Reagan Institute to have this program today which those of you who have been here from the beginning know its been a marvelous, marvelous experience. We have had many of Justice Oconnors clerks here, some of her friends and colleagues talking about her legacy, what it meant when she was appointed to the Supreme Court, a bit about her Juris Prudence and its been an exciting, interesting conversation and we worried as i was hearing this, what can we add to that because were going to talk about some of the same things. The audience heard a lot about Justice Oconnor and her Juris Prudence and what she meant to the court and to america. But they didnt hear it from only perspective that the two of you can provide. Her colleagues in the history of the United States Supreme Court and so im going to ask some of the questions that the people here im sure are interested to learn about. Ill start with you, Justice Ginsburg. What was your reaction and what were your feelings when you first heard that Justice Oconnor was going to be nominated to be on the United States Supreme Court . I was driving home from the d. C. Circuit and turned on the news and the nomination of Sandra Day Oconnor was announced. I said, hallelujah. But i also thought, this is a sign that what jimmy carter began is going to be advanced forward. And what jimmy carter began, it was to change the complexion of the u. S. Judiciary. When he became president , it was only one woman on a federal court of appeals, he made her the first ever secretary of education. And then he went on shirley hefsted . Yes. Carter, even though he only had four years and no Supreme Court vacancy to fill, he did literally change the complexion of the federal courts by appointing women and members of minority groups in numbers. I think president reagan was saying, jimmy carter was right and i am going to make the big stride forward appointing a woman to the u. S. Supreme court. So you saw this as a continuum of what president carter had started. And it was a change in the opportunities for women to be a part of the judiciary anywhere. Yes. People sometimes ask, did you always want to be a Supreme Court justice . I said, in the ancient days when Justice Oconnor and i graduated from law school, what we wanted was a job, any job. Well, we wont talk too much about the job opportunities, at least at the beginning. Justice sotomayor, where were you and how did you learn about this nomination, this appointment . And what was your reaction . At the time, i was an assistant District Attorney in new york county. And i was working hard but as all of you know, ruth works harder than most of us. So, i got to see it on news that night. And, to me, i had just graduated from law school a year and a half before, maybe two two a year before, a year before. And at the time there were obviously no women on the Supreme Court. There were hardly any women in the federal judiciary. There were, i think, maybe one or two women on the Supreme Courts of other states. And the idea people, law firms were touting they were progressive when they had one woman partner among a hundred. So, what ruth had started, i still had not seen the progress being made in any significant numbers just yet. But the appointment of sandra gave me hope. It opened the door to me thinking that the progress would move faster than i had imagined. Didnt move quite as fast as i had hoped. And still some steps to be taken. But it was a door opener. It was an opportunity for women to begin to see the possibility of exploring all aspects of our profession. You see, the advantage of diversity, whether its gender or race or ethnicity, or even professional work, whatever the diversity represents, it gives people who dont otherwise think theres opportunity. It aspires them to believe there might be. So, i think seeing a woman on the court inspired not just me but so many other young women who are starting their careers. Do you think, Justice Sotomayor, that Justice Oconnor has very special qualities in terms of her character, her background, her upbringing, her well, ill tell you what i thought when i heard that made her be a first or the only thing that scared me was she was a woman who had done it all. She was married. She raised children. She had served in the legislature. She had served in the court system. And i thought to myself, oh, my god, if thats the standard, im going to be held to, im not going to accomplish anything. Ruth pretty much did something similar in her work. Yes, i do think it takes those extraordinary women who broke those initial barriers, had a fortitude about them, a resilience, a persistence that was absolutely necessary to be able to do what they did. Now, as you know, Justice Kagan and i are not married. We dont have children. Weve had successful careers. And i dont think you have to be unmarried and have children to have successful careers. But i do think it helped back then that she represented everything that people expected and more. Justice ginsburg, what qualities did you see and experience with Justice Oconnor that helped craft her for the position of being, as evan thomas says in his book, first . And you were second. And you were third. It has got to be carry special burdens and a sense of obligation to the people that are out there watching and seeing you as an example, as a role model. What qualities did she bring to that role . Sandra was responsible more than any probably any justice in history for the collegiality of the Supreme Court. That was very important to her. When she revived the tradition of having lunch together and urged her colleagues to attend, she was also a good listener and she had patience and i never saw her snap back in anger. Sandra was a person who woefr came her way in life, and some things that were not not at all fortunate, she coped with. Like her breast cancer. I dont know how many women were inspired to carry on, to have courage to do what she did. And then when john oconnor became ill, how she dealt with that. Just whatever life brought her way, she just did it. That was her attitude. Part of her background was being raised, in part, on a big several hundred a couple hundred thousand acre cattle ranch in arizona. Part of the growing up was no electricity, no running water. She went to school on the west coast in stanford. The two of you are from decidedly different environments, new york city, brooklyn, so forth. And were educated on the east. Does that make any difference or would it have made any difference . It makes a difference, everyone brings his or her Life Experience to bear. But i think sandras attitude since her childhood was, she can do it. And when she went out for it the roadups, she rode with the cowboys and one of them said she wasnt the rough and rugged type, but she worked with us well in the canyons. She held her own, and thats what she did at every stage of her career. She held her own. Both of you broke many barriers, and in many respects each of you were first in many parts of your career, including on the Supreme Court in many different ways. Justice sotomayor, describe that. Do you feel special obligations to women or to the Legal Profession or the judiciary because you are breaking every day these barriers . I dont think i feel a special obligation to a particular group of people. I do feel as a justice, whether im a woman or not, an obligation to uphold the values of the court. And i think that thats what sandra felt. A deep commitment to the institution. And that goes along with ruths description of her emphasis on the collegiality of the court. I tell a story that the justices were at a meeting. I dont remember if it was lunch or conference. We got distracted in a conversation about a book that described many a time in the Supreme Court history when the justices were openly hostile to each other. And someone asked, what changed that . And some of my colleagues were suggesting the names of one or more chief judges. And all of a sudden a quiet voice in the room said, when women came on the court. And Justice Ginsburg was right about that. I remember, ruth, the first time i met sandra at the court, the first morning after my induction that i was one of the things she spoke to me about was my obligation to attend the lunches that the judges had. She told me that she had told the chief that it was his obligation to continue the tradition. It continued even after her taking senior status and leaving the court. There was that emphasis on the institution. Maintaining not just its collegiality, but the sense of its importance in ours side. I was going to follow up on that about the collegiality because it can be very tense, i suppose. I dont know. None of us really know except for justice kavanaugh, but at the the atmosphere must from time to time be tense especially at the end of the term when some the very controversial decisions are rendered and there are sometimes very strong opinions and strong dissents. Does that collegiality carry through even when there is a lot of tension in the decisions and sometimes in the language of the decisions . Justice ginsburg . Sure. This is an episode in which you played a major role. It was not the end of the term. But i suppose the most tense moment ive experienced in my 26 years on the court was the decision in bush v gore. It was a marathon. The Court Granted review on a saturday, briefs followed on sunday, oral argument on monday, decisions out on tuesday. When it was over, i sent my clerks to watch what the newscasters were saying about it to Justice Kennedys chambers, because he wrote the principal opinion for the court. Justice scalia called me that evening to say, what are you doing . You are still in your chambers . You should go home and take a hot bath. This was the night of the decision, the 12th . Yes. Well, it was tense, that case. Im not asking anything that happened in, you know, that we shouldnt be talking about, but we do know there was a lot of difficult feelings about whether the court should have taken the case or how the court was going to decide the case. Justice oconnor has famously been characterized as not jabbing back. Not responding to a Harsh Criticism and a separate opinion or concurring opinion is that part of what youre talking about . She responded to ideas to but never to individuals. You would never see in an oconnor opinion, as youve seen in some opinions of the court, one justice saying about another justices opinion, this opinion is not to be taken seriously. In fact, that was said of Justice Oconnors opinion. She never snapped back to speak in the same strident voice. She was never critical of a colleague. You would never see in her opinions, this opinion is profoundly misguided. And in that, i tried to follow her lead. Is it hard, Justice Sotomayor, to resist . Because i read these opinions. And some of them one day some of them are pretty pointed. One day Justice Scalia looked at me and said, i really love you, sonia, youre a bull dog like i am. Were both new york city street fighters. He was right. I have been helped in restraining myself with the intervention of colleagues, which is one of the things that you asked about how do we maintain that collegiality. Other colleagues will step in, have conversations with you, and suggest that some things have crossed the line. Others, i have received, and i wont mention what it was about, an apology for a colleague in something that was said in heat argument argument. And that i know was likely prompted by someone else saying, hmm, what did you do . Or did you really mean that . And so its to remain collegial, to understand your obligation to work with each other, assuming each others good faith. It gets challenged when you disagree, but thats the time when you need to come to your senses and the group needs to continue insisting upon the nature of our family. So, i was going to ask about the oral argument. Sometimes the oral arguments the justices are asking the advocate questions but theyre really talking to one another. Is that true . You know that feeling youre being talked through and not to. And ive never understood, ruth, why lawyers dont let us do that more often or dont like it. Well, chief Justice Roberts has talked about this a little bit, the context of the oral argument. And ive heard either him or someone say, we dont talk to one another too much about the cases before oral argument. This is the first time correct me if im wrong, this is the first time weve talked to one another and were doing it through the medium of the poor guy or woman standing six feet away. Is that true . The first time weve considered a case together would have been at the petition for review stage. I mean, they the discussion is fleeting, but at least we would have been together and noticing this case that has been granted review. Then theres not much discussion before the argument. Frankly, there isnt time because as the term goes on, youre gearing up for the sitting, youre writing opinions for the sitting just passed. You may not have finished the reply brief in the case thats being argued the next day until the night before. So, thats why there isnt much in the way of discussion before the oral argument. But were constantly trying to persuade each other. Every time im writing a dissent for four people, im hoping i will pick up one more vote. And mostly that hope is disappointed, but i remember vividly one term when my senior colleague assigned a dissent to me. Just for himself and me. So, the court divided 72. In the fullness of time, the judgment came out 63, but the two had swelled to six. And seven had shrunk to three. So, a famous it can happen. Yeah, it aint over till its over. I think that was yogi bear that said that, wasnt it . I didnt know ruth was familiar with him, but she always pleasantly surprises me. Justice oconnor was often the one to ask the first question. Yes. When she was on the court. And it was always a very tough question and really required the advocate to be prepared for something in the record, something about and you do that, too. You ask often the first question, as you do, Justice Sotomayor. Youre breaking the ice or trying to find a probe a weakness . I know Justice Oconnor was, you know, getting it started. Yes. I always waited until she asked the first question. Pardon . I always waited for her to ask. That was kind of the signal that we could we could stop the soliloquy and engage in colloquy. The most moment for me was the first argument after Justice Scalias death. I think we were all a bit shellshocked. And i remember sitting there and the poor advocate standing up there and talking and no one was interrupting him. Unheard of when the justice was alive. Probably unheard of now. That may be a time in which i felt i had to break the ice because it was a painfulfully long time. You could see it in the poor advocate. He was sort of what is happening here . My problem is that i was a District Court judge and when youre a District Court judge, its your fifdom. You dont have to wait for anybody. Its hard to adjust to waiting for eight other colleagues to have a say. And so thats my problem. Im still trying to bring it under control. But i do think that when any of us asks questions, its because the issues important to us. Of course. Now, Justice Oconnor was one time, i understand, in a cameo appearance in henry v. Yes, queen of france in the treaty scene. She said, happily a voice may do some good. And what is what does that mean in the context of a justice on the Supreme Court . Is there a womans voice . What does it mean . What difference does it make . Is it sexist to say that or stereotypical to say that . Well, sandra would probably quote, as she did many times, a minnesota Supreme Court justice, gene cloyne, who said at the end of the day, a wise old man and a wise old woman will reach the same judgment. And i think thats true. But sandra would have followed it up by saying, we each bring our Life Experience to the table growing up female is not the same as growing up male. And you could see the difference in an opinion that Justice Oconnor wrote. It came out at the end of her very first term on the court. It was hogan against Mississippi University for women. This was about a man who wanted to become a nurse. The best Nursing School in his area was the Mississippi University for women. Hogan challenged the exclusion, as it did equal protection, and one of the thenjustices, justice powell, looked on the reservation of the Nursing School to women as kind of a affirmative action for women. So, it was okay. But sandra, if you read between the lines what shes saying is, if you want to improve the status of women in the nursing profession, the best way to do it is to get men to want to do the job because the pay inevitably will go up. That was an insight she had. She recognized that reserving that school was not a favor to women. So, that decision struck down that exclusionary policy, as i recall. Yes. And then i understand, i remember this pretty well, that you cited her language in that decision in your decision in United States versus virginia. Yes. In which you also played a major role. That one im very proud of, but the vote, i cant recall what the vote was. There was one person who agreed with you. Justice scalia, that was all. But it was only an eightjustice court. Yes. I understand that Justice Stephens whos in the majority, assigned that to Justice Oconnor and she said that should go to ruth. Yes. And so can you tell us about that . What happened and why and what did you do with that . Why did Justice Stephens offer the dissent i mean, the opinion for the court to Justice Oconnor . Because seniority is a major factor in our workplace. So, if you were the junior justice you tend not to get the most exciting cases. And i was pretty junior then. But sandra recognized this was something i cared a whole lot about. And so she told Justice Stephens that i should write the opinion. Does that happen very often . It says so much about the generosity of her spirit. It hardly ever happens. So, what can you add, Justice Sotomayor, about a womans voice and the fact that there youre going back to my confirmation hearing. This was a first in 1981. Now were 38 years later, Something Like that. There are three women on the court. Justice ginsburg has said shell be happy when theres nine. I said the question is, when will there be enough. So, the answer is, there will be enough when there are nine. [applause] nobody asks any questions about all of the years when all nine were men. Well, i think people feel that you have a point. I can tell from the reaction. Justice sotomayor, have you any other thoughts about that . I use as an example in some of my speeches something that happened in a virginia case involving the spotford case, involving the young woman who was strip searched in her school because of an allegation she was seen taking an aspirin. It was a no drug case. I wasnt on the court, so i am repeating something that was just public knowledge. Apparently some of my male colleagues were asking questions to suggest that this strip search was equivalent to students undressing in the gym. For those who are women, i think most of us know that puberty is a time in which theres a heightened sensitivity to the privacy of ones body. And the idea that an opinion could have been written by one of our brothers, that might have suggested that this search was something less than of an affront to the dignity of a young girl. Would have been an appalling writing. I do think, and my colleague, just ginsburg was heard to say after the argument that she thought that her male colleagues didnt understand what it was like to be a young girl. I said it at the argument. I was stumped the way the questions were going. I said, a 13yearold girl is not the same as a 13yearold boy. In the sense of the invasion of her privacy. This girl was accused of having drugs. The drugs turned out to be one advil and the other, something comparable. But she was taken to the girlsbathroom, strip searched. She was then taken to the Principals Office and she sat in a chair outside the Principals Office until her mother came to call for her. Her mother was outraged and sued the school district. For what had been done to her daughter. But in the middle of that argument, the tenor of the questions changed. They were no longer joking about it. I read that colloquy. You made that point quite clear during the argument. Yeah. So, the point being in my raising that example is that clearly we come to judging with our Life Experiences. And that includes every bit of it. And i remind people that wise old men and wise old women disagree and come to different conclusions on the court in many, many decisions. So, its not the wisdom of gender. It is simply the wisdom of life and coming and bringing as many perspectives as we can to the process of judging. A diversity of background, a diversity of education, a diversity of legal experience. Thats why sandra gave ruth the vmi case. She had spent her life on the issues of equality for women and it was a fitting tribute to what ruth had done. Sort of why i asked the question about Justice Oconnor growing up on a vast ranch in arizona. I couldnt do half the things she did. Pardon . I couldnt do half the things she rod horses. She fly fished. I go across the country to hear judges telling me how she came to visit and theyd be out in the middle of this ice cold river fly fishing. I believe she hunted. I know ruth has flown out of airplanes and gone in back of boats. I dont do any of that stuff. These are indestructible she also went around a golf course faster than anyone. A heck of a tennis player, too, i gather. And she came from the west and went to stanford. Justice kennedy came from the west. Now youre all pretty much from the eastern part of the United States. All of you went to yale or Harvard Law School. And most of you went to ivy league undergraduate. Princeton was a big part of it. So, theres not much diversity in that respect on the court now. Is that anything that you think has an impact or some high courts, canadas high court has proportional geographical representation. So, a certain number of justices come from the west coast provinces provinces. We dont do that. In fact, there was one state that it was vastly overrepresented, and that was arizona, because there was chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice Oconnor. Population of arizona is not until Justice Scalia passed away, there were four of you from the five boroughs of new york city. So, we were diverse. The only thing we were missing was staten island. Im sure the president , if he had an opportunity, whoever the president was, would have been looking for someone 50 years old from harvard and staten island. Theres quite a few of them, by the way. Should that matter . There was a time earlier in our history when there were certain geographic areas were presumed, it was a southern seat, or Something Like that. Should that matter . Diversity of experience includes the way you grow up. By the way, you left out one western. Justice breyer grew up on the west coast of san francisco. And then he wound up at harvard. Is that a special taint . Well, you left. Yes, and i have no Harvard Law School degree. Im going to ask a question Justice Oconnor was a trailblazer. People knew who she was. This is maybe the first time in a long time and someone knew somebody the name of somebody and face of somebody on the United States Supreme Court. And in that sense, she was not a a role model, a trailblazer because people would look at her and see this is attainable and this makes a difference. Youve each been very much out in public. Youve written a bestselling book, Justice Sotomayor. Youve got your own t shirt factory. So, to what degree relinquishing your privacy the court wont let cameras in the courtroom, and there are various reasons. We dont need to talk about that. But youre relinquishing your privacy to explain or make available to the American Public your experiences and your feelings and who you are. That has to have a big impact on the American People and women in particular. You make that decision consciously. Im going to go out there because im not just a justice. Im a public figure and its important for me to be out there and answer questions. You go to a lot of places and give interviews to law schools and bar associations. You speak in public a lot, Justice Sotomayor. What goes through your mind with respect to that . How much privacy are you willing to give up in order to maybe perform that function . My mail was just flooded with letters that went like this. Last year or five years ago Justice Oconnor visited our law school, our bar association, our country. And he did go to all 50 states. She was a great ambassador of the United States to other places. So the letters i got, after Justice Oconnor was here, it was as recently as monday when i was in raleigh, north carolina. I was at a Womens College called meredith. They were very proud Sandra Day Oconnor had come there in 1991. I dont know how she managed all the invitations that she got. But she made a concerted effort to speak in every state of the union, and to be available when the government wanted an ambassador who was not part of the political world. To help countries that were struggling to install rule of law, to give them encouragement. And assistance. So, the tag line of the letters that i got was, she was here, now its your turn. So what im going to ask you, too, Justice Sotomayor. What goes through your mind when youre inundated, im sure, with invitations, both of you, to be here and here and here. And you have very hard jobs. This is very demanding work you do. But you take the time to go to bar associations and go to state law schools, and travel. What goes through your mind . You feel that thats important for you to do, what Justice Oconnor started, pretty much, and you both have been doing. The most important thing is the courts work. And i dont let outside engagements interfere with the time that i must reserve to read the opinions below the briefs, prepare for the oral arguments. So while the term is ongoing, i try to limit the amounts of my distant travel. But we do have visitors at the court all the time. We have School Children from the second grade to the graduate level coming. Many of the groups i speak to, i speak to at one of the courts conference rooms. What im getting at is, why do it . Why do you give that much more Justice Sotomayor, why do you give that time to the people that you go and visit to talk to . Well, you asked. I know this is true for Justice Ginsburg. Its certainly true for me. You do give up a sense of privacy. And there virtually is no place in the United States that i can travel without people recognizing me. We were in portugal together this past summer. I hired a driver to take me around the city. And he took me to one of their famous bakeries. As i walked in, there was a puerto rican family who saw me walk in and surrounded me. And this poor driver then saw the entire store, entire bakery come over to take pictures with me. So, he finally got down and got me the miniature pastry he wanted me to taste and he looked at me and said, who are you . But that does happen. Youre right. You do give up a sense of privacy when you go out to the public. When i first got to the court, there were these three garbage collecting bins, the huge once you see in a building where they take the individual baskets and put it into a huge big one. There were three of them sitting there with letters. And im looking at them and opening them and the mail delivery guy comes in and i say, three of these . He said, oh, no, no, no, theres three more downstairs. I had all the letters opened that year. And i organized all of the different groups who wanted me to speak. And i sat down and said to myself, okay, what do i want to accomplish as a justice . Thats what im asking. Whats the legacy . I made a decision that my legacy was to reach out to as many children as i could to inspire them to first become civically involved, and secondly, not to give up hope for themselves. And just virtually everything i do is geared to that end. Whether it was my memoir where in my preface i explain that im writing my book for those people like me who come from difficult backgrounds in the hopes that they will understand that they too can have a good life and a meaningful one. My most recent book that just came out this summer just ask is geared to children with chronic life conditions. And the entire message of the book is that we are equal in every meaningful way to everyone else. And so that makes it easier for me to choose among the invitations i get. Now, obviously, you do some things im here, right . Not many kids in here. Or atleast young kids. Because there are people who youre fond of, and i am fond of Justice Oconnor and you do things because there are people that you love and who are important to you who ask you to do things that you do, but virtually all of my appearances have a relationship to children. And thats why when Justice Oconnor stopped being able to be actively involved in i civics, the organization she formed and launched and cared about so deeply, when they asked me to join the board, i joined it because her message is very much in keeping with my own. So i made conscious decisions about where i can have the great impact. And with the two goals in mind that i set forth, which is to give people hope who might not otherwise have it and to inspire people to believe in our government and our system of government and to have respect for the court system. And i think if one starts that process in young people, that it can very much change the tenor of our country. Justice oconnor believed very fervently that partisanship in politics started when they stopped teaching civics in schools. And and shes right. [applause] and i bear her standard in terms of the same thing. We have to go back to talking to each other. And a really talking. And really understanding what civic participation means. Well thats a wonderful, wonderful answer. Wonderful approach and its, its another reason why were so grateful that youre here. Youre in a position because of who you are, people will listen, watch and learn from you. People will be inspired by you. Justice ginsburg, you have not at all shied away from being a notorious rbg. Every woman and girl in my family has tshirts or mugs or whatever it is. She does, too. You havent backed away from that at all. Youve joke about the fact that people want to have their picture taken with you. Yes and im 86 and a half years old and everybody wants to take a picture with me. Its absolutely amazing. The notorious rbg was started by a second year student at New York University lawdispleased with the courts decision in the shelby case that held a key provision that the Voting Rights act of 1965. So this student was at first angry and then thought to herself, anger is not a useful emotion. Doesnt get you any place. She was going to do something positive. So she took the bench announcement of my dissent in the Shelby County case and started a blog, and then it took out into the stratosphere. There was a wellknown rapper, the notorious b. I. G. And people asked me nobody knows about him anymore. The two of us have something very important in common. What can that be . We were both born and bred in brooklyn, new york. And shortly after that, your paths diverged. But there is value the same as what Justice Sotomayor is saying is value i think to the American People to young people, to women and men. To hear you, see you, be aware of you. They learn about the court. They learn about the institution, but they learn about your life story. Both of your life stories are so inspiring. You must be aware of the fact that people are drawing inspiration about themselves all the time. Because of this. Well if i can give people hope, tremendously satisfying. Those such as it really is amazing the number of products, even most recently, i was sent a set of air fresheners, closet fresheners. Bathroom glasses. I think its that. People want something hopeful. To believe that whats important to them is shared by many other people, but i think its that more than anything, the desire to have something positive. Something positive in your vision. That brings us back to Justice Oconnor. She was a believer in i can do it. And she would tell people, she would tell her clerks, just do it. Now when she writes in her book about being sent out miles and miles to bring lunch to the ranch hands during a round up and she had a flat tire and had to explain to her father why she had showed up late, they said just start earlier next time. But with her, she was determined to overcome all kind of obstacles and she wasnt offered a job like you. When she graduated from law u school. The idea that you can accomplish things as an underdog or someone thats facing disadvantage, thats also the e lesson youre both giving to people. You can do it. I was going to tell you u a story about, just do it. Justice oconnor, one of her favorite expressions. It was my very first term on the court. We had had a first sitting and i was expecting that the chief justice would assign to me a unanimous decision in a one issue case, instead chief justice reinquist decided on a miserable arissa case. Probably the most dense statute congress ever passed and it was not unanimous. It was 63. Justice oconnor was one of the three. I complained to her. I said sandra, he wasnt supposed to do that to me. And she said, ruth, you just do it. Just do it. And get your opinion in circulation before he makes the next set of assignments, otherwise, who will risk getting another unpleasant case. But that was her attitude about everything. Just do it. Now, about her, she was both a consensus builder and a trail blazer, and i suppose that in some sense, being one is the antithesis of the other. If youre out there writing a singular dissent, strong dissent, and chief justice reinquist when he was just, as an associate justice, was singular dissent line, that must be somewhat intention with being a consensus builder. You think about that, Justice Sotomayor . Well, i do because im not the consensus builder. I think there is attention. However, however i dont think that i didnt serve with her as ruth did but i dont think that Justice Oconnor worried about being a trail blazer. I think she focused her life on just doing it. And for her, what was right, she wouldnt accept that others wouldnt understand it. And so you read it in evan thomasbook, she really by force of i think the personality basically forced people to either join her or leave her, she really worked on consensus in the sense of this is the right thing to do. Working on a consensus and bringing people together and getting five votes, sometimes doesnt accomplish when a lone dissent can do. It wasnt a lone dissent. What the dissent made a huge difference. So a role for that. I know from time to time, she did do that. And so what im asking. Is when do you decide im going to get out there and maybe read my dissent. Some day in june. As you know, most of the time dissents are announced, but not summarized from the bench. They also of the courts opinion, justice so and so joined by justices so and so dissented, period. But if you think the court got it not just wrong, but agree wrong, then it will speak out at the session and announce your decision at the ben. Which i did in Lilly Ledbetters case. It was 54, not a lone dissent. But my tag line was Lilly Ledbetter case involved title 7. My tag line was the ball is now in congresscourt. To correct the error into which my colleagues have flown. And there was just a wonderful coalition coalition. A huge majorities on both sides of the aisle to pass the Lilly Ledbetter fair pay act, which was the first piece of legislation president obama signed when he took office. The very next congress. But i had a model for that, because years before in the late70s, then justice reinquist had come to the conclusion that discrimination on the basis of pregnancy is not discrimination on the basis of sex. That was o stotly. That is it, its swabbed a coalition that very quickly ammended title 7. To read simply discrimination on the basis of pregnancy is discrimination. Thats the pregnancy disability act. Yes. So, i call it the pregnancy umbility act. But the notion that it couldnt be sex discrimination because after all, the world is divided into nonpregnant people. That includes many women and all men. And then there were these pregnant people and they were all women, so could be gender based discrimination. The same thing with lilyly ledbetter ledbetters case. So dissents can really make a difference and in certain circumstances, Justice Sotomayor. I believe they do. I think they galvanize group us to to do what civic participation means to go out there and lobby and move for reform. It happened in both cases, the pregnancy discrimination act and the ledbetter act as well and sometimes, it has it in other ways. I did a dissent from a denial in an alabama case about jury overrides and there was ultimately a legislative fix that occurred when groups value began galvanized to change that alabama. They can have, they can draw a spotlight on issues that the public should think about. And if they are as outraged as we are, it can, it can move change. Certainly it can. Justice stevens was confirm unanimously in the senate. Justice oconnor. Justice scalia was. There were only nine vote against. Only three. Three. That briar guy that was nine. I dont know. Yeah. But it is now in the word of 31 in your situation in the last few theres been over 40. Are we at a point where theres no turning back in terms of the contentiousness of the confirmation process and what kind of damage does that do to your institution . If you think back, way back to 1980. When i got my first good job in d. C. I was appointed to the court of appeals. The chair of the Judiciary Committee was ted kennedy. The ranking minority member was strom thurmond. Those two worked together to get well qualified judges appointed to the federal courts. It was the same thing, 1993 when i was nominated then senator joe biden chaired the committee. Orrin hatch was the ranking minority member, hatch was my biggest supporter. Thats the way it should be. And the way i hope i will see again in my lifetime. But but it will take people who really care about our country to say enough of this dissension. Lets come together and do the work which should be done. How would Justice Sotomayor, about done. I dont know whether the justices can do anything. I know chief Justice Roberts has spoken about it, but is there anything as citizens that we can do . We could exhort people bto be more decent, civil in the process. Anything else . But its not just exhortation. It is both speaking out publicly about it. If politicians hear the outcry, they will respond. They often and mostly do. But we have to educate the public about the problem and we have to educate them about the risks that continuing to perceive judges as partisan creatures will cause in terms of our institutions. I dont know that, i mean when i look at the news, i certainly dont hear a lot of intelligent conversation explaining this issue as a nonpartisan issue. As one that is basic to our survival as a democracy and so i think we do. I speak at law schools quite frequently and i trychide deans and professors for not building more attention or not focusing more attention on the importance of lawyers and lawyers in educating the public and themselves graduating from law school with respect for the process. Think about how many people on the Judiciary Committee have graduated from law school and look at how many of them are acting. That really to me is incredible. That trained lawyers do not believe that it is important to judge on the basis of qualification qualification. Youre right and i think the American People feel very, very strongly about this. Its very damaging to the judiciary, particularly to your court. Our time is up. I think youve been fantastic. applause in 1981, president Ronald Reagan nominated Sandra Day Oconnor to be the first woman to serve on the Supreme Court, next on American History tv, panelists including one of oconnors sons discuss the factors and qualifications that led to her appointment. 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