Abused and misused by man and his machines. Without the cuyahoga, the sprawling megalopolis of Cleveland Akron would not exist. The river was the reason for originally settling this portion of the western reserve in the 1780s. The river called crooked by the delaware indians provided a waterway to the interior of ohio, and so man came and continued coming until today nearly 2 Million People live and work in the river basin. In creating this urban complex, man has used the river as men have always used rivers. The flow has been put to work as a navigatable stream, a water supply and as a suewer. Mans mark is everywhere. Is this mark an epitaph for the cuyahoga. With us is the professor of history with the university of cincinnati and the coauthor of where the river burned. Physically, where are you located and explain what happens 50 years ago this month. Hi, steve, thanks for having me. We are sitting at the near the mouth of the Cuyahoga River, the can cuyahoga reaches lake erie. But can see one of the many railroad pretrestles that cross the Cuyahoga River. Downtown cleveland is to my left and to my right is a neighborhood in the city of cleveland. Were sitting near the flats, the lands along the Cuyahoga River. They run up several miles. This is the former Industrial Area of the city of cleveland. And 50 years ago, on june 22nd, 1969, there was a fire on the Cuyahoga River at the end of navigation a couple miles south of here, end of navigation meanimea meaning boats could not go further upstream. This is where a couple of low railroad trestled blocked some debris coming downstream. Thats not unusual. The piers from the bridge got soaked in oil which also was not unusual, and then there was a spark, perhaps from a passing train. We dont know what set off the fire, and the trestles burned for about 20 minutes or a half hour. They were doused by both a fire boat and from crews on the shore. Photographers didnt get there on time to give us a picture of the cuyahoga burning that time, but eventually news about the cuyahoga catching fire became international in scope. So this is what were celebrating, the 50th anniversary of the cuyahoga no longer catching fire. But there had been previous fires along the cuyahoga. This was not the first, correct . Absolutely. There were perhaps a dozen, maybe even more fires on the cuyahoga before the 19 69 fire. Probably the one that became most famous is a fire in 1952. It became most famous because many people began to confuse photographs of that much worse fire with the fire that happened in 19 69. And thats because Time Magazine which ran a piece about Water Pollution in august of 1969 either inadvertently or purposefully used a indicate from 1952 and indicated it was the cuyahoga catching fire. It showed a tug boat trapped in flames. It was a damaging fire with firefighters training water on a large oil slick burning at that point. So most people outside of cleveland would have assumed that rivers dont catch fire on a regular basis. That what they were looking at in 1969 was a photograph of something that had just happened. And there the confusion only gets more extreme. People begin to think that this was in 1969 a catastrophic fire, that there was tremendous damage that was done. That it was five stories tall. That it burned for hours. I even saw somebody say it burned for days. So the mythology around what actually happened in 1969 dwins to grow. And my brother, richard and i as we rercsearched our book decide probably the reason for the mythology about the Burning River, why it grows so much is peoples thoughts about a Burning River having to be a major event, that this is a biblical thing, that rivers dont catch fire. It must be a sign of terrible Water Pollution of a type that had never been seen before, and of course, the many previous fires dating all the way back to the late 19th century is an indication that the pollution had been a longterm problem in cleveland. And the first reported fire going back to 1868, going back to the Time Magazine piece 50 years ago describing the cuyahoga as a river that oozes rather than flows, and in which people do not drown but decay. So just how bad was the river . I dont think theres any doubt that the cuyahoga was a terribly polluted river in 1969. I do think that it was not at its nadir. That the the pollution was much worse in the 1940s and 1950s. Thats why there was a significant cluster of fires in those two decades. One of the things that the city of cleveland did to improve the Water Quality or at least to diminish the flammability of the river is to regularly clear the debris from the river and to break up oil slicks with water cannons. But thats not something that could be done above the head of navigation, so this particular fire was not preventable in that way. But clooemeveland like a lot of cities was investing significant amounts of money in the Sewage Treatment structure through the 20th century. I think industry also had been making investments in diminishing the pollution load it was dumping into the river. And i think significantly the Oil Refinery Industry had basically left cleveland by 1969. So standard oil had closed the refinery number one, the last of the major refineries here. So the Water Quality was bad. The ecology was greatly diminished. There was little reason for people to think of the cuyahoga as an ecological space, to think of it as a complete river. At the same time, it was not as bad as it had been. Along with his brother, david, is the coauthor of where the river burned. He made his way from cincinnati to join us in cleveland on this sunday. And we welcome our viewers on cspan3s American History tv. Were dividing our phone lines regionally. 2022748000. We have a line set aside for ohio residents especially if youre rifing in the cleveland and akron area, wed love to hear from you. If you remember the events, 2027488002. I want to share the words of president nixon, credited with the creation of epa. Heres what he had to say about our environment. In the next ten years, we shall increase our wealth by 50 . The profound question is does this mean we will be 50 richer in a real sense . 50 better off, 50 happier, or does it mean that in the year 1980 the president standing in this place will look back on a decade in which 70 of our people lived in metropolitan areas choked by traffic, suffocated by smog, poisoned by water, deafened by noise and terrorized by crime . These are not the Great Questions that concern World Leaders at summit conferences. But people do not live at the summit. They live in the foothills of everyday experience. And it is time for all of us to concern ourselves with the way real people live in real life. The great question of the 70s is shall we surrender to our surroundings, or shall we make our peace with nature and begin to make reparations for the damage we have done to our air, to our land, and to our water . [ applause ] from a 1970 state of the union address, and david, as you hear that from nixon one year after the fire along the Cuyahoga River, your reaction . I think its a recognition of just how powerful an issue a political issue the environment had become. Nixon articulates in a common way at the time which is to kind of suggest that things had just gotten so bad that now we finally have to deal with them. As my earlier comments suggest that the environment, particularly the urban environment around industry had been to bad for so long that mostly what hes articulating is a changing sense that now we need to do something because american citizens are demanding that they be given access to clean water and clean air. That their cities not be as filt filt filthy as they had been. I think this is mostly a recognition that a tide had changed and a series of events including the Cuyahoga River fire but also the Santa Barbara oil spill. Theres a terrible pesticide spill on the ryan river a couple days after the fire in cleveland. All of these things begin to build up, these spectacular events to remind people just how bad the urban environment industrial environment had become. As you look at the river behind you, how does it look to you today . Its remarkable the change that has taken place here. Its twofold. Its difficult to tell whats going on in the water itself, of course, because its still the milky brown river thats flowing out of agricultural and forested land. It still has debris that floats downstream, of course. But we see water fowl. We see something you would never have seen 50 years ago, people out kayaking, and saw people out earlier this morning. The cuyahoga has once again become a much more complete river. It is an agricultural space. There are im sorry, a recreational space. There are new parks, new Public Access along the river for people for the whole region. And this is something that goes well south of the city of cleveland. The Cuyahoga Valley National park has become a regional and a national treasure, really. Its a remarkable space for recreation, getting out of the city. Our guest is david straddling, the coauthor of where the river burned. Hes joining us from cleveland, ohio. A professor of history at the university of snicincinnati. We want to thank the Music Box Supper Club for allowing us to put our cameras in place to allow david to share with us on the scene of what it was like there and the fact that its now a supper club, that there are bars and restaurants along the flats tells you what . Well, it tells us that this is a part of the city that clevelanders are interested in returning to. This is not an entirely new movement. In the 199 0 s the cleveland started to reimagine the flats that so much of the industry had moved out. Theres still an awful lot of very interesting architecture down here. Mostly you see the engineering. Its really kind of a spectacular space, the engineering of the various bridges. Lots of different kinds of bridges which makes this an interesting place to be. In the 1990s we had a bit of a kind of a kindling of this culture down here by the flats. And its come on much more intensely in the last five or ten years. Much more capital put in down here. And this is really one of the highlight areas of clevelands culture. From nearby lo raeign, ohio, sandra, youre up. Good morning. These rivers flow into the lake, lake erie. Lake erie brings in 800 billion of revenue every year. So when this pollution well, this pollution is very costly. And let me just add to that that i live in lorainne which has a black river which also leads into the lake, and a couple days ago there was an oil spill on the lake, and im sorry, on the river, and also not to take away from that the rivers, but there was a spencer lake where a truck was found to be spewing out chemicals into a wildlife refuge in spencer lake thank you. Were going to jump in and get a response. Yeah. Sandra points out obviously the problems of pollution have not been completely solved. Theres still a lot of industry around lake erie, of course, and the other great lakes, even here. Lorainne has a steel mill, but in cleveland the major steel mills are up and running. I believe theyve made significant investments in Water Pollution control and also air pollution control, but no doubt accidents happen. And there are, of course, other kinds of contributors to Water Pollution. Cleveland like lots of cities that grew in the late 19th century and early 20th century that has combined sewers. It means it combined with storm runoff, and when it rains, it means the untreated sewage flows into both the cuyahoga and directly to lake erie. We also know that lake erie suffers from nonpoint pollution, nonpoint source pollution. Thats to say agricultural runoff mostly. Particularly in toledo. You know, as i tell my students, there are no permanent victories, in environment protection. Its an ongoing effort. You have to adjust to new threats, to new problems, and to be vigilant about regulation and enforcement. To the west of cleveland is toledo. Tim, youre on the air. Good morning. Caller hi, i wanted to say i grew up. I grew up by a big river that goes to the cuyahoga. I remember foam and dead fish along the river. As a kid you dont know thats not normal. It was disgusting thinking back. That was in the 70s. I remember that commercial, the indian going you know, we walked along the ridge, all that, and now the river, its better. Weve got small mouth bass in there that was never in there before. It was always carp and sheep head. But now its cleaned up a lot, and anyway, now all the sudden we seem to be getting back to where we dont care about protecting our environment. Its like we won that battle, and we are doing the same thing all over again with the oceans and all that. Sooner or later weve got to wake up and realize you cant keep pollute where you live. Its logic. Its basic. If you say to somebody youre a tree hugger and all these crazy things being said, cant we just be a logical species and say we cant i mean, you didnt go upstream and relieve yourself and go downstream and get drinking water. Weve got to be kind of stupid as a species with the environment. Thats how i feel. Thank you for the call. Well get a response. Caller . I appreciate the reference to the foaming river. Hes referring to a period in time when detergents were adding lots of phosphates. So this was a new load of phosphates act as a fertilizer. They got clothes cleaner but they got waterways dirtier. They provided a lot of nutrients and we got algae blooms. It was a real problem in the mid 1960s, and that was solved through regulation, but we no longer see the visible suds from that problem, but we do see some visible problems in lake erie occasionally. Including these great algae blooms that happen every summer now. Mostly contributed by agricultural runoff. Ill say as a broader comment, the visibility of Environmental Issues can be really important to gathering political will. I think thats one of the reasons why the cuyahoga fire became so important. Because even though the image came from a different fire, the imagery of a river on fire really galvanized people. It was a recognition. Thats one way to see Water Pollution is to actually see a river on fire. Otherwise yrs as i said, its difficult to assess the Ecological Health of a river. You have to do tests, and then it becomes an issue of numbers rather than visibility. I think this is an issue that has plagued trying to solve the problem, the much larger problem of climate change. Theres the difficulty to identify an imagery that can create this political va lanjrn lan valance. Audrey is our next caller from alabama. Good morning. Caller good morning. This is audrey from alabama. I havent called in about a year, but yall have touched something i have ocd, plastics. The plastic bottles, the plastic plates, the plastic jugs. I have told my sister and threatened to carry my cat litter big plastic bucket, empty it when it gets empty, refill it and leave it at target. I mean, but i want to remind people, this fourth of july, you know, you cant find the thin paper plates anymore. Please, wash your plates and use your own silver ware, and love all of you all, zoosteve, and h a wonderful day. Dave, what about the plastic bags and Water Bottles and other debris . Well, that is certainly an ongoing problem as far as the great lakes and the ocean, of course into which they flow. You know, we do see trash, debris floating down river which has been a longterm problem, but now that its plastic, it lasts much longer and wasnt break down. So she is absolutely right. This is something that needs attention. You know, going all the way back to the first earth day in 1970, the focus there for students for young people generally was to pick up trash much less of which would have been plastic at the time. But there again, its that effort was about visibility. That you can see that as an environmental problem because you can see the trash. And so even though it may not be the most urgent of issues in 1970, it was one that people felt like they could tackle. That they could put effort into. And i think that we see a lot of cleanup efforts along river banks. We see it on the ohio. Im from cincinnati. Every year we have a major cleanup around the river banks. It makes its a visible problem with a very visible impact when you pick up the trash. Brief history of the Cuyahoga River. The river that bends in cleveland, ohio. There are reportedly at least 13 separate fires. The first that date back to 1868. The largest fire we talked about a moment ago in 1952 causing more than 1 million in damage. In 1969 Time Magazine describing the cuyahoga as the river that oozes rather than flows in which a person does not drown but decays. A key person in all this was the mayor of cleveland, ohio and the subject of part of your cover story, karl stokes. His response to all of this at the time, mr. Straddling. He was the first African American mayor of any major city, and you know, he he really understood the problems of urban america. He was raised in poverty himself here in cleveland. Grew up in one of the most degraded neighbors in Public Housing in central. So he had kind of a unique view on the problems of urban america as far as major politicians are concerned. He well understood that concentrated poverty and adequate housing were primary concerns for residents in cleveland. But he knew that cleveland itself could not recover if the Water Quality continued to diminish and particularly if air quality continued to diminish. Unlike many politicians of his erika, he was when he spoke about the problems of urban america, he completely mingled the Environmental Crisis with the urban crisis. He tended to talk about both at the same time. Right . And solutions to one problem were not going to solve the problems of urban america. You had to deal with all of these problems at once. They were interconnected. The die after the cuyahoga caught fire on a sunday morning. On a monday morning he calls has his staff call together the local press and takes them on what my brother richard and i call the pollution tour. They meet at the Railroad Trestles where the fire took place, and he discusses generally the problems of Water Pollution in the cuyahoga but also about lake erie noting the city of cleveland was powerless to solve the problems of Water Pollution. Sm much of the pollution comes from far away cities from akron but mostly cuyahoga heights. He talks about the way in which the suburbs themselves had not tied in the city Sewage Treatment plants and the state of ohio actually issued permits to industries inside of the city of cleveland that allowed them to pollute the Cuyahoga River. There was very little that karl stokes could do himself to clean up the river. He needed allies. He needed suburbs to cooperate. He needed the federal government to create new regulations and provide some resources to expand Sewage Treatment particularly. Lets go to tom joining us from twinsberg, ohio. Good morning, and thank you for having me on. Caller im a proud clevelander, and from what i understand, the Cuyahoga River wasnt the only river that was catching on fire in those days. And that as soon as that happened, im glad that this show is on and that its showing the cuyahoga as much cleaned up as well as it has. It has, like 18 different new species of fish coming back down the river, and we take pride in cleveland. Unfortunately, we have taken the brunt of jokes after the river caught on fire. We still hear about it. Im a proud clevelander. Other cities had the same problems and from my understanding, well, thats all i have to say. Thank you, david, and thank you, cspan. Thank you. And david straddling, as you look behind you, youll see a cargo ship. Ier earlier we saw small boats. Its a Cross Section of what the river navigates. Yeah. And he makes a very good point about the cuyahoga not being the only river that caught fire. The river rouge in detroit, terribly polluted industrial river, the Buffalo River in buffalo, of course. Even the hudson caught fire. So it wasnt unheard of. Whats interesting is that the cuyahoga caught fire more frequently than any other river which has to do with the way the river operates as a river. Its a narrow, windy, slow flowing river that the mix of the industry here, the number of bridges that caused obstructions and gathered debris. It was much more of a fire hazard than others. All the ingredients were present in other places as well. He also points out that cleveland this becomes woven into the mystique on the lake reputation about cleveland. You know, obviously cleveland gets more negative attention because of the river fire. But honestly, i think in the longterm it serves the cleveland fairly well, this mythology that people begin to think of this as kind of an important water shed moment, a birthplace, if you will, for significant attention to Water Pollution in the United States, to an impetus to the clean water act which came along in 1972 and although lots of other waterways in the United States including lake erie were terribly polluted, we begin to weave a story that has the cay hcuyahog at the center of that. I think theres something to be said for the way in which the city has taken pride and the improvements that have happened over the 50 years, the transformation of the banks along the river, the opportunities that are here to reimagine the Cuyahoga River itself, but also the entire city of cleveland with becoming a post Industrial City. And wanted to mention cleveland hosting the 2016 Republican National convention and this year hosting the allstar games. On many fronts this city working to come back. I want to share with you and the audience more from the documentary two years after the fire. The film makers that traveled through cleveland in 1966 came back and saw this. By the time the Cuyahoga River reaches cleveland, it is already dead. There is little life of any kind in its water. In all, 44 Sewage Treatment plants and at least 28 known industries discharge waste into the river during the 100 mile trek to the lake. The cleveland Treatment Plant adds another 75 million gallons of affluence to the river alone. Now it is the river that is known throughout the world as the only one that burns. You know, we talk about cleaning up lake erie but is zret is not in the lakes. Its in the tributaries. We have to clean up the sources and the tributaries being washed into our lakes. Industries in the flats area that use river water find they have to clean it first. Then many dirty it more before dumping it back. There are proposals for cleaning up the area. While it will never be a trout stream, it can be made not to smell. The costs for the clean up may be staggering. The question is two things. First, we as a civilization have to toilet train ourselves and or get them cleaned up before we do. Second, now we have to clean up the mess weve made over the past many decades while weve been doing this. What changed between 1969 and 71 through today. How did we get to this point . Well, i think there are several things that have affected this place in particular. Obviously the federal regulation and federal [ barge horn ] there you go. Its a living river. Right . Federal regulation matters an awful lot. But the investment, too, and Sewage Treatment, and making certain that suburban communities tie into Sewage Treatment plants. That all matters. I also think in this particular location the fact that so much of the industry has left means that clevelanders have to worry less about water and air pollution. Of course, it means they have to matter more. Worry more about jobs and what the evolving economy will become. But with all of those industries situated along the cuyahoga and the great lakes, what was the thinking of those executives that basically used the rivers and lakes as a dumping ground . I think mostly the idea is that the lakes and rivers could handle the pollution loads, at least early on. I think theres very limited understanding of what happens to pollution once you put it in a waterway. There was a hope and an expectation that pollutants would break down or simply be carried away. That certainly is the case for industry and communities that dumped into waterways is the sense that it would be gradually diluted and become harmless. Of course, that is untenable when you get so much industry concentrated in one place. At that point it becomes difficult for industries to figure out how to work into their Capital Investment structure the incredible amount of investment necessary to change the way that they perform their basic processes. Industries do make those changes early on. Republic steel which was here creates new settling basins so they dump less iron filings into the Cuyahoga River. Some problems are more difficult technologically to solve. And some of them are so difficult to solve that Industries Just basically stop functioning here and move to places where regulation is less intense. And we know from davids new bestselling book the frontiers that cuyahoga is an indian came which remits whpres what . It means crooked river. Its crooked in both sense. Its crooked here in the city of cleveland where there are dramat dramatic bends. In fact, this is an artificial mouth. It was punched out in the 19th century. And that large boat that just came by and startled me was coming out of the old river which took a sharp left behind me. And hes on cue with the sounds. Yes. And the other sense the cuyahoga is crooked in that it heads south well, it comes from the south around akron, but it source is actually a little bit to the north and well to the east of cleveland. So it heads south and then heads back north. We welcome our radio audience. Our guest is david straddling, where the river burns. Karl stokes and the struggle to we have a caller from ohio. Caller good morning. I actually as a young girl i learned how to swim within the Cuyahoga River a little bit in a small town before you get into akron. And thats actually i mean, i grew up along the river. And after you got past akron is where much of the pollution came. Now, im 58 years old. So this fire occurred in 69. I was literally nine years old at the time. But it was all over the news. My father was a truck driver who halled steel out of the flats there in cleveland. And at that point in time, you would not be the air pollution was so bad that you would not be able to see, david, where hes standing at this moment. 30 miles away from cleveland you could smell the air pollution, and when you got close to cleveland, the air was actually yellow, filled with sulfurs from the steel mills and from the other factories that were up there. The street lights were on in the middle of the afternoon because the air was so polluted and the residents in the houses that lived close to that area, their homes were just gray with pollution. Ive seen the Cuyahoga River as a child and watched it literally it did not flow. It kind of creeped along as an ooze filled with foam, filled with floating dead fish, and it was amazing, because the area of the cuyahoga that i grew up by was clean. We were swimming and catching fish in it. But 30 miles away you saw floating tires, floating logs, floating everything and anything. Boats upside down that were floating down the river, and the stench that came from the river and from cleveland at that point in time was so horrendous, and the Health Issues of anybody that liverd in that area. Its a night and day difference between what it had been permitted to become to what it is now. Mary, thank you for that firsthand account. Well get our account from our guest. Appreciate you joining our conversation. Mary is calling from one of my favorite little towns in northern ohio. Down inside of the National Park on the cuyahoga valley. Yeah. Shes right. To talk extense iively about th worst of the environmental problems in the late 1960s and early 1970s, certainly it was a visible problem. And i think it was a major impetus to the clearing out of the city as developers and the in the 1950s and 1960s are building new subdivisions away from the industrial core as more and more americans have automobiles and can commute longer distances as we invest in highways so people can take the longer commutes, People Choose to live farther away from polluted environments. And i believe that the cleaning up particularly air pollution but also Water Pollution allowing people to return to beaches along laker a erie her the city has been an important part of the revival of cities. In a less polluted urban environment, people feel much more comfortable raising their children, much more comfortable spending their recreational time. So i do think that karl stokes was right when he indicated that you cannot solve the urban crisis in the United States without also solving the Environmental Crisis. It is a summer of anniversaries. 50th anniversaries. We talked about the stone wall uprising last week. It was june 22nd, 1969, that the Cuyahoga River caught on fire. Were devoting this hour of the program to that anniversary. Next month neil arm strongs historic moon landing and walk on the moon. July 20th, 1969. Well feature that on saturday, july 20th from the air and space museum. Jenny is on the phone from honolulu, hawaii. Good morning. Caller good morning to you. And thank you for this program. Im calling again about some plastics. I was recently on the mainland. Im from st. Louis originally. My visit is for two months. And i just personally went to different gasoline stations each time i filled up asking can i get a match or a pack of matches. Can i buy matches . No. You can get them at a Grocery Store or a big drugstores, but you cant get match anymore whe where bic lighters are sold in the greatest abundance, i think. We used to be able to get free matches every place cigarettes were sold, they gave away matches, and i just think thats one of the pollutants, and items that are unnecessary. And the other one ive noticed everywhere i go is people use plastic containers for liquid soaps when they wash their hands, when they used to pick up a bar of soap. Nothing wrong with picking up a bar of soap to wash your hands, and all this extra plastic coming into our world makes me very sad. Hawaii is very advanced thinking inform. Weve gotten rid of plastic bags pretty much. Were attacking styrofoam and straws. Rivers are attacked in another way besides pollutants. Theyre also dammed up for reck rational purposes and for making power generation, and levees all over the place, restraining rivers from flooding cities, and agricultural areas. But, you know, i think maybe we should take a lighter step on the planet and stop being so aggressively abusive to mother earth. Jenny, thank you for the call. David, are we seeing that from other communities whether they put a tax on these plastic bags or banning them completely as were seeing in new york and elsewhere . Yeah. I think that shes pointing to the idea that you really cant rely on consumers necessarily to think all the time about the ways in which their little decisions add up to a big impact on the environment. You know, where weve passed through that era of bottle laws where in new york state has one, many states have them. Ohio does not. They require that you have a deposit on bottles and cans including in new york state for bottled water. And those bottle laws as troublesome as they might be for grocers [ ship horn ]. Not sure what that was. I think theres another big boat coming. Its interesting if you look behind you. That looks like a bridge that goes up and down depending on the movement of the ships . Did it go up . Its downright now. Theres a barge coming down. Okay. Theres a barge coming down. It may not go out to the lake. But those kinds of regulations, they may seem obtrusive to some, but they matter. The litter in new york state plummeted after they passed their bottle law, and it really is just the political kind of power that certain corporations have that prevents more states from passing those kinds of laws. And i think this is weve seen communities, individual cities pass regulations regarding plastic bags in particular. As an indication that states have failed to regulate, that they are unwilling to take these steps and i think well see that more and more in the coming years as cities recognize that if somebody is going to do somebody about problems like plastic pollution and broader problems like cliechmate change theyll have to make the steps. Mike is on the phone from akron, ohio. David, youre doing a great job with the barges and the horns. It would startle anyone. So thank you so much. Mike, go ahead, please. Caller yes. I live in akron close to the tow path from cleveland to Summit County in the northern part of stark county. Very proud of it. Its a lot cleaner than it was when i was growing up. But geography lesson about the Cuyahoga River. It begins in burton and flows south into kent and portage county. From there it goes west into akron in Summit County. From there north into cleveland county. I grew up in Cuyahoga Falls on the border of akron. There was a big dam on the border of the two cities. I believe they tore down that dam and by doing so, it would make the water even better. Let me mention two other rivers nearby, the little Cuyahoga River which flows into the Cuyahoga River by a golf course. Thats where fire stone and others dump their pollutants to the Cuyahoga River. Another river flows south into the mus key gee river and then to the ohio river. Akron is on the divide. Even though were much closer to lake erie than the mississippi river, only onefourth of the water that flows into drops in ohio rain water goes into lake erie. Threefourths of the rain water in ohio flows south to the ohio river and down the mississippi to new orleans. I went to Kent State University back in 1971. I can tell you a whole lot about may 4th, 1970 but thats not what this phone call is about. But as a student, i used to hike along the Cuyahoga River in kent as well as a young kid throughout Cuyahoga Falls of akron. One last thing, i lived by the cyber league jach welnature wel. The two mainly responsible for the Cuyahoga Valley National park, i love taking the train through the small town of peninsula on route 30 3, one of the most scenic places in ohio. Theres still work to be done to get this river as clean as what it should be, but very proud to be from this part of ohio. Mike, thank you from akron. David straddling. So im glad he referenced the tow path which is hes talking about the ohio and erie canal that used to come it went down the Cuyahoga River valley and down to connect to the ohio river. It was an important 19 th Century Investment in the transportation infrastructure that helped this region grow and become eventually the Industrial Center it became. It is now being recreated into the entire length of it. Even here in the city of cleveland to become an important recreational route. And to come people that may not seem important, but it really is part of the remaking of an Industrial City and to a post Industrial City to make this a more Pleasant Place to live. A happier place to live. A healthier place to live. These things all matter in an era when capital can move very very freely. When the kinds of industries that we rely on now are not terribly place specific the way that Steel Manufacturing was. You know, if cleveland wants to attract more and more hightech employees, then you know, creating a landscape that those people can enjoy when theyre not at work is an important part of the puzzle that needed to be done. So i think hes describing some important changes that have taken place over the last 30 years and i will emphasize these things dont happen by themselves. A lot of hard work gets done to improve the environment. So make certain that investments take place. Lobbying local and State Government to make the investments, local communities that do their part to make certain that they take advantage of things like the tow path. It really is something that requires a lot of peoples engagement. And of course, were seeing that with whats behind you both at the barge ships and recreational vessels along the cuyahoga. David straddling is the coauthor of where the river m grandparents had a farm in kingsville, ontario, canada and we used to swim in lake erie every summer. And i remember the first year that we couldnt go swimming was about 56 or 57 because there were so many dead perch and bass floating all around and it washed up on the shore. It was horrible. Thanks for the call. Well go joan in florida. Good morning to you. Thanks for waiting. Caller thank you for taking my call. I just returned from new york. Im a resident of florida. I was very surprised to see that in the supermarkets they charge five cents for plastic bags and all plastic products, Water Bottles. They receive a five cent on each bottle. We have a little bit of feedback but we understand your point. We talked about it earlier. David, do you want to address that again . Well, i would like to address the beach issue going swimming in lake erie, if i may, because that was one of the things carl stokes tackled while he was mayor. He under stood cleaning lake erie would take a lot of effort from many jurisdictions, from canada and the United States. There are two beaches here in the city of cleveland one of which is just to the west of us, and its very close to the Sewage Treatment plant which is also just to the west of us. It was much too polluted in the late 1960s and early 1970s for people to swim there any longer. Then theres another beach on the far east side called white city beach. Carl stokes wanted to make certain residents had access to beaches. People who lived in the suburbs, had their own cars could drive further out of the city to go to beaches that were still clean enough to swim in. But City Residents without cars couldnt do that. So he and his director of public utilitys devised a system by which they dropped plastic sheeting into the lake and beyond that, inside of that plastic sheeting they dumped chlorine and that chlorine would kill the bacteria that was harmful but also killed all of the fish. They would clean the beach of the dead fish and then open up the beach for swimming. And for spokesman this seemed rather miraculous they could safely swim in lake erie take advantage of this resource. From our distance it might seem kind of like an unfortunate baby step. But to me it indicates the way in which carl stokes operated at the local level solving problems for people whose problems he really understood, but also the at the same time lobbied the federal government to do the work that it needed to do to clean up lake erie more generally. Yet, david, having grownup along lake erie it seems as if the tourism along the lake is now thriving, is that a Fair Assessment . I think it has seen an uptick. I think this is true on a lot of american waterways that real estate along lakefronts and river fronts have increased in value. Part of it has to do with an earlier caller talked about the stench which is mostly no longer there. The fact that people can think about the lake and river as, you know, truly ecological space. It changes the meaning of it makes it more attractive even if youre looking at it through a window. So i do think weve seen a lot more investment along waterway, lake erie included. Donald is next from cincinnati. Good morning. Caller good morning, steve. Good morning, david. I was 14 years old 50 years ago when the fire happened. I vaguely remember hearing about it. But i was more concerned about the ohio river, im from your neck of the woods, you know that. I remember not being able to eat the fish you caught coming from the ohio river. Nobody would do that. And i think what you said earlier is absolutely true, they thought if you just dumped it all in the river it would wash away. And weve learned. Im glad of that. And the ohio is a much nicer river now. David . Yeah. You know, the ohio has a much more complicated history in part because its a much larger river and travels, you know, through lots of industrial regions, you know, has its origins in pittsburgh, obviously. Much of the chemistry of West Virginia flows past the city of cincinnati, you know. Its from those chemical factories. So i certain lie remember also the, you know, chemical spills and the city of cincinnati would have to close its water intakes and wait for the chemicals to pass. I still wouldnt eat fish that come out of the ohio river. An indication that, you know, obviously theres work yet to be done. That these are cleaner landscapes, but not perfectly clean landscapes, and, you know, weve seen some back tracking in recent years as far as environmental regulation is concerned, the Ohio River Sanitation Commission recently decided that regulations could be enforced locally and not regionally which i think is very problematic. I dont know if people think that success has been so complete we can dismantle a regulatory system. Caller this is one of the cleanest rivers just seen. Right now people seeing the bridge going up, seeing the kayak going down the side. This is incredible. The this has to be one of your greatest segments and episodes in the world. Beautiful. Were waiting for the bridge to come up. It is wonderful. Youre doing a great job with david straddling in there. I tell you right now you are really quite a likeable looking guy and doing a great job. Thank you, wayne. Appreciate the call and the comments. We agree with that david. Dealing with a lot on the scene. Who knew that this was going to be such an active segment. Especially on a sunday morning. I mean this is, obviously a Beautiful Day for boaters here in cleveland. They are not all so beautiful, i know that. But we werent anticipating this much commercial activity. But very quickly, the fire took place june 22nd, 1969. A year later earth day occurred the very first one. How did the cleveland area react to that . So, that was you know my brother and i thought that we were going to write a history of the relationship between the city of cleveland and the Cuyahoga River. So basically a longer biography of the river if you will. One of the first things that i did was look into carl stokes papers at the western receive historical society, a remarkable collection from his four years as mayor from 67 to 71. In that collection is a wonderful folder filled with children from earth day. In april of 1970 the first either d earth day in the u. S. Wildly successful. Gave the level of concern about the environment and willingness to take steps the to do something to clean up the environment. Here in cleveland hundreds of children wrote as part of a School Project or even on their own wrote a letter to carl stokes about the environment. Their concerns about the environment. Many of them were about air pollution i think overwhelmingly. The number one concern of these children was air quality. Fast behind that was concern about Water Quality. The vast majority of those students discussed lake erie, because particularly for suburban kids the inability to fish in lake erie any longer, commercial fishery had collapsed and they were no longer suggesting that people could eat the fish that they did catch in lake erie. So it was really, really problematic and, of course, people were having trouble finding places to swim in lake wery, a real loss to the region. What surprised richard and myself is that very, very few students wrote about the Cuyahoga River at all. And only one of those hundreds of letters referenced the fact that the Cuyahoga River caught fire. So, clearly even just ten months after the Cuyahoga River burning, it didnt matter that much to local conceptions about the environment jaal crisis. They didnt need a river catching fire to know the industrial landscape here in cleveland was terribly polluting. They had lots of indications about that particularly the air quality. David now teaches at the university of cincinnati and coauthor of where the river burn and carl stokes and the struggle to save cleveland. 50 years after the fire of june of 1969. Thanks for being with us and thanks for doing a terrific job with all the cargo ships and other noise behind you. Thanks, david a pleasure. All week were featuring American History tv programs as a preview whats available every weekend on cspan 3. Lectures in history. American artifacts. Real america. The civil war. Oral histories. The presidency. And special event coverage about our nations history. Enjoy American History tv now and every weekend on cspan 3. Saturday night on American History tv on cspan 3 at 8 00 eastern on lectures in history, Clemson University professor Bradley Thompson examines the preample to the declaration of independence. It does not say the purpose of government is to make all man equal tore the same. It says that the purpose is to protect rights. What rights does it mean . It means the rights contained in the second selfevident truth, the rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. At 10 00 p. M. On real america the 1993 Academy Awardwinning documentary the panama deception. Panama is another example of destroying a country to save it, and its another case of how the United States has exercised a might make right doctrine among smaller countries of the third world. It has long been u. S. Practice to invade these countries, get what we want, and leave the people that live there to kind of rot. Sunday at 6 00 p. M. Eastern on american artifacts, living history enthusiasts reenact George Washingtons crossing of the delaware. One of the things that strengthed the case against nixon and ledge magitimatized i was bipartisan and there were many republicans who studied the evidence, they looked at the reports, they listened to the tapes when they finally were released, looked at the transcripts that were released in advance and they came to the conclusion that nixon had done something wrong. This weekend explore our nations past on American History tv on cspan 3. American history tv products are now available at the new cspan online store. Go to cspan store. Org to see whats new for American History tv and check out all of the cspan products. The Cuyahoga River as most think of