Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing On Recreational Use Of Federal Lands 20240713

Public lands. The Senate Hearing is just over 90 minutes. It running everyone, the committee will come to order, happy halloween, happy world series everyone stayed up late watching that game. Yes its kind of exciting so we are here today talking about good things, recreation and im going to keep my comments brief because i know colleagues have been engaged in this and a couple of you want to make some opening comments as well but we have three pieces this morning that we are considering, the simplifying act door out sex, they caught the sore act i like the acronym theyre pretty good. 1723 the ski area act from senator gardner, we all love skiing. In 1967 the recreation not red tape act from senator wide in. This is building off one that we held on march where we discussed improving access and permitting to provide recreation opportunities on our federal land so proposals were looking out today is a good start in addressing those issues. Senator heinrich and white and have put forward on legislation to simplify the system to simplify this for those who operate across the spectrum and federal lands and the investment needed for infrastructure to meet the demand of the season recreation this belief recognizes the Important Role that recreation is playing in our economy, according to the bureau of economic analysis. The Outdoor Recreation account for 2. 2 of current dollar gdp, or 427 billion dollars this includes not only an impact sectors like outfitting and guiding but all of the associated impact as well. Lodging, transportation, restrooms, all the leg. In my state we see a big impact from recreation, and 2018 we welcomed on cruise ship visitors and i think this next year were up to about 1. 3 this is in a state of about 120,000 people so we feel that impact its exciting but sometimes its little overwhelming, and the Glacier Visitor Center you have hundreds of people who want to get into the facility every day but it is designed to hold a fraction of that. Forest so there is evolving a plan to respond to increase anne visitation, but its a challenge. I was with senator lee out and well have we had an opportunity to go to the National Park and see the pressures everybody wants to get into the park but how do we accommodate, how do we facilitate our outfitters and our guys are also trying to respond to growing demand. Back country ski guides want to go to new areas in the lands near haines but they are being delayed by a lengthy and Environmental Review process to process the permits. These are all things we hear about, so what were trying to do is ensure that our federal land managers have the resources and flexibility needed to respond to increasing and changing demand so i appreciate colleagues work on these important bills. Im going a turn to senator manchin before i introduce our panel and i know that members a couple of you would like to make introductions of some that are here. If i can id like to defer to my good friend wide and, very good. Thank you all, i want i dont think its a bouquet tossing contest but i want to thank you for your courtesy but i also very much appreciate your leadership on the recreation, issues the work we try to do up here and a bipartisan way and i think we all understand every member here particularly westerners we understand that the Recreation Centers and its clearly a boost for our quality of life in the west and for our economy and a chance to bring americans together for a better health. I really appreciate this my fellow with congressman in bishop is basically one that updates the policies from yesteryear because in yesteryear recreation was not the big economic engine that it is today so thats what the bill is all about. That is 0. 1 and we have on lee davis here he knows a lot about recreation he was responsible for the outfitter and guide provide with the most youre certain days and he also helped create an Oregon State Office an Outdoor Recreation. So ill be running back and forth at the courtesy of the chair and the Ranking Member but colleagues were really talking to the Gold Standard when youre hearing from my fellow oregonian. Last point and im not interested in starting a big controversy but i want to make sure we talk through the chair and the vice chair through the days ahead. That is colleagues we all know because he read the paper about these wildfires that are just ravaging the west and there is a host of issues so we will have to tackle. I want to put two up on the board, one of them is Climate Change i think there are ways we can work collaboratively on that and second is collaboration which is what we try to stress on the ground that is what the end of fire borrowing is all about that is what stewardship has been all about and if we want to have colleagues wonderful places to recreate we are going to have to do something to get an update for the policies to fight fire, madam chair and the vice chair i look forward to working with you on both fronts thank you madam chair on thank you for holding the hearing and i want to thank all of you for being here today i command the sponsors for exploring innovative ways to improve Outdoor Recreation and the businesses that supported. Outdoor recreation has been a powerful economic driver and states across the country in my home state has been no exception ive seen firsthand the jobs that recreation has brought Outdoor Recreation in my state generates 2 of our Gross Domestic Product and supports jobs and now many are supported in Outdoor Recreation. So this is a topic thats near endear to my heart on, as our Committee Reviews on legislation on Outdoor Recreation i believe that we need to ensure the ideas being discussed for rule communities. All three bills attempt to do that and well have impacts i believe in this states not only with them being introduced but especially in West Virginia and acted this way to provide assistance to skiers on federal land well we will be hearing about how this will impact the skiing industry i want to mention that we have to that use for service land and a fourth located thats been a close and is for sale. I look forward to discussion about ways we can be better partners with the ski industry and the appropriate use of fair revenue on we will also be discussing the bills and providing backpacking trips on federal land and senator wife that says a system of natural Recreation Areas. West virginia was actually home to the first Recreation Area designated in 1965 which is the prosperous Recreation Area this has common things, facilitating public lands well supporting jobs and local economy, is following this hearing chairman and i will get to work with our colleagues on a recreation package to report on this committee. The heart and soul of that package will be the same as the bills we are discussing today. Not only make it easier for people to enjoy their public lands but also grow businesses in all Rural Communities coming from alaska and West Virginia we have a firsthand experience of this importance. With that as a basis we have been and developing additional ideas for the package for example one of the areas ive been on supporting is how we can benefit gateway communities. Those are the communities that are next to the recreation destination, where they either seen before and after push coming to visit. They testified before the Committee Earlier this year about how difficult it was to establish businesses in a gay way community. His system polls 50,000 riders annually but 87 of our nonWest Virginia. Meaning they need hotels peace and stayed at hotels they wish to age. And im sure the continues to be very difficult to establish the infrastructure that is needed to accommodate increased visitation and some of these roll areas. I look forward working with the colleagues and many other ideas as we assemble a bipartisan recreation packages in the coming weeks, with that i want to thank the witnesses in madam chairman thank you. Senator i know that you had wanted to make introductions and perhaps briefly speak about your bill. Senator you want to make an introduction and senator heinrich you have a bill up here giving everybody, were never gonna get to these guys. I just want to hear from the witnesses, who wanted to shift same criticize but lets return to cnn partner. Thank you very pleased to have before the committee on the Vice President of Public Affairs and testifying on behalf of the national sea area association, and sourced in colorado where its mountain was started in 1962 by the tenth Mountain Division of world war ii, since then resources have grown into a Success Story spending 37 ski areas, all inc. Together by its industry pleading epic paths and is that correct, and all together but a low ski writers and a great value and the former ski Police Instructor and as chair because he can attest to a pretty good guy to be in the mountains with and thank you very much for being here today and i think you have an 86 acres opening keystone right now. Well, amazing, great thank you. Thank you very much madam chair i am pleased to help you welcome ban to our committee today as a witness he and i share the hometown of casper and precious resources that wyoming has to offer, he spent more than a decade with the Outdoor Leadership School where he had been extraordinary in terms of being an advocate for outdoor education, efficient and responsible use of public lands and permitting of course. When i think about the history of this country likely, john moore carried a stick and and sell police Teddy Roosevelt carried a gun, but they were all under the same conclusion we need to reserve and pass on these resources and allow others to enjoy them. So ive had many conversations about ways to avoid the cumbersome permitting process that this wades public use of public lands, im glad that hes here today and we have a reliance on recreation and tourism is a key component of our economy, and much of the recreation occurs on public lands managed by public agencies. So we need to have an effective and efficient process that encourages Public Access and these landscapes i look forward to the expertise iran to share with the committee today and i also want to congratulate you, i know that monday you will be asserting work with american outdoors as the executive director so its big news and i look forward to continue to work with you, so thank you madam chairman. Great thank you all. Most of you have been introduced but i will provide my welcome to each of you, we will start off the discussion here this morning with an individual who has been before the committee, we have had many dealings with chris the deputy chief for the National Forest system in the u. S. Forest service and chris we thank you for the many efforts that you have made and i know youre spending a lot of attention and times on alaska related issues and thank you for your leadership, nikki is with the committee she is this instant director for conservation of lands and community partnerships, we thank you for being here this morning and i look forward to your comments. Perennial require has been introduced and welcome and, its always good to have somebody that can be against speaking with a firsthand relationship to the industry that he represents an easterly doesnt we welcome you to the committee, lee davis has been introduced by senator widen and we are pleased that you are with us with we appreciate what you will provide and we ask you to keep your comments to about five minutes. Your full statements will be included as part of the record and then we will have an opportunity for questions afterwards. Im going to excuse myself a couple minutes to introduce an amendment but we will lead off the committee here with mr. French, thank you. P8 thank you very much, i really appreciate the opportunity today to talk about our viewers on these three bills. The simplifying Outdoor Recreation act and the ski area retention act, you know when i glance back at my 30 years ive been with the Forest Service i served as a recreation technician, now is a sit here and think about my role is deputy chief i realize i always have had a passion for connecting people to the recreational opportunities and its where i take my family. I ski in those resorts and i know the ones they close and it was harder to see that happen. And i use many of these Services Provided by our guides, you know when i look at this i think anything we can do to improve our ability to serve our Recreation Community and partners and enhancing the connection folks have to public lands thats a good day. How to recreation is a significant use of force system, arose from 143 millions in 2009 nine years later isnt 150 million. Recreation and National Force system sustains more private sector jobs in any other program and provides the single largest stimulus for gateway communities. It contributes more than 11 billion dollars to americas Gross Domestic Product and supports 148,000 full and part time jobs, most of which are in those gateway and rule communities. How do recreation opportunities and amenities are consistently ranked as one of the primary reasons people moved to rule towns and can be contributor, at the Forest Service we administer 30,000 recreations is generating two billion dollars to the holders, in particular the Forest Service manages 122 ski area permits and approximately 8000 outfitter and guide permits. These permits enable professionals, uk shall institutions to lead a wide range on four system lands. Whether drafting, downhill skiing, horseback riding big game hunting or youth educations trips please. For many of these activities they represent, this represents the first introduction that many folks have to the outdoors and the outfitters and guides that they employ generate jobs and incomes from local communities. We also manage nearly 159,000 trails, the largest Trail Network in the nation, we host over 60 of the ski area visits and we are proud to provide a vital respite on, as well as opportunities for voting, Fishing Hunting in hiking. Usda approves the overall goals for four system lands, the recreation not red tape act and complement to streamline processes, provide a higher level of Customer Service to our public and partners. It will increase available resources to improve the administration of an experience of risky areas, finally Outdoor Recreation provides millions of americans ridge opportunities to connect with their lands and heritage, the Forest Service is honored to serve in this and put works to improve the lives and livelihood of many throw Outdoor Recreation. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony and i look forward to work on these important bills. Thank you, miss has to get. Good morning, i am nikki ascot asked acting director for conservation lands and partnerships, thank you for inviting me here today to testify on, the recreation not red tape act and the simplifying Outdoor Access for recreation. These bills that amend the federal lands recreation enhancement act aim to improve the efficiency and the cost for applying for and administering special recreation permits. They also authorize single giant recreational permits for trips, it supports the trips of and goals about these on federal land overseas acres including public lands managed by the poem the bureau of reclamation and the National Park service as well as the Forest Service. These lands host of a remarkable variety of recreational opportunities. Secretary bernard is improving recreational access to public lands and has issued a number of orders and support for this priority. On secretary order three three seven three promotes improved access to public lands and under this policy it has a required new lands such as 13,000 acres to improve access to the Black Foot River in montana and the acres to improve access to the wilderness area and new mexico. Much of the changes proposed in the bills being considered today ddos bushel recreation permits and theyre associated fees. Fees collected for each permit allow the government to implement projects that benefit on such as maintaining recreational sites and issues 1000 of these recreational permits throughout the air and special recreation prevents at any one time, as doilies align with the secretarys priorities to increase access and promote recreational opportunities and public lands, we believe these bills have the potential to address some longstanding challenges and we look forward to working with the sponsors and committee to address a number of technical issues on. Both issues single joy and recreation permits for trips across agency batteries, when a single joint recreation permit is propose the pills authorize the designation of a league agency for the permanent. The bill also authorize agencies to delegate their respective authorities to the lead agency, the department has been supporting efforts to make recreation permitting easier and we support efforts to the permitting process. Americans should be able to access and enjoy the public lands with as much fees as possible. The department supports the goals of these provisions and would like to continue to work with the sponsors on certain modifications. The bills also some provide other authorities for agencies to improve the process, such as expanded use of categorical exclusions and allow permit ease to return service days. The department strongly supports these provisions. Other provisions of the bill such as all mine and email notifications of permit opportunities and exemptions of the first 50 hours of work from Cost Recovery reflect the goals of this and we support and appreciate the opportunity to continue working with the sponsors and the committee on these provisions, lassie the recreation includes provision regarding a retailing of recreational passes, encouraging veterans and Service Members to recreate on public lands and expanding the use of volunteers, the department supports these provisions, and in conclusion we are grateful they are considering legislation to make it easier for americans to enjoy public lands thank you again for the opportunity to testify today and ill be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much, Mister Maguire he may be again. Thank you for that nice introduction, members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to be here in support of 1723 in the ski area recreational retention act, on behalf of this my resorts and the National Skiers association i would also like to thank senators biden and white in for their leadership in introducing the bill and on others for cofounding this locally, it has likely 122 members that operate on the National Forest system on it owns and operates 37 ski areas including anne stevens pass in washington and tahoe and mount snow in vermont so goes all the way east as well. It retains a percentage of permit fees in the forest in which they were generated those funds will be retained so that they have the capacity to preview area infrastructure processes. They work in partnership with the on services to have an outdoor on immigration service, and dates back to the 19 forties and has a long history of providing benefits to all americans through health and fitness and appreciation of our Natural Environment and providing strong returns to the u. S. Government through the fees paid, over the past ten years years nationwide have averaged over 55 million visits annually, 60 occur on for Service Public lands, in total the industry creates anne millions of dollars interest related revenue and supports 1 million jobs and generates nearly five billion dollars in annual retail sales. Public land ski areas are the largest employer for their communities in which they operate, they pay for all on site improvements including roads, parking, lots chairlift as well as all the processes to approve such processes the ability for a risky areas to move forward as a business is linked to our most important partner, u. S. For service and their capacity to review proposals and render decision. This is outlined in the bill an Important Role to boost the agencies capacity picture of a proposals, this will allow them to invest more and sooner and muchneeded infrastructure. Retaining the ski fees is necessary because funding in staffing for the Forest Service correct programs its nearly 20 below 20 channel levels, meanwhile visitation is only crown increasing by 30 in that same time period, the own data shows that many percent of visitors are seeking recreation opportunities and nine of them host ski areas on and that visitation drives the local economies ski areas are less likely to receive timely reviews of project proposals when operating at low capacity they have in pauses where we cannot be accepted by the agents. Some have seen a lack of banned way that allows them to only one project at a time so ski areas like all businesses find hard to invest significant resources. That means the areas are less likely or slower to walk up great chairlift agreed to energy snowmaking on systems and transition to foresees the model capable and jobs in the economy all year. This uncertainty has unfortunately decreased investments. Dedicating a percentage of the nearly 40 million of fees paid by ski areas will unlock new investment opportunities. Since 2010 skiers operated on for service lanes have experienced good Revenue Growth in the winter and up over 100 from the summer activities thanks to the bill this committee and Congress Passed in 2011 the summer activity bill. There is tremendous interest in our industry to harness the momentum and build infrastructure necessary to support future growth. We are your support s1723 and thank you for the opportunity to be here. Thank you. Mr. Davis welcome. Thank you Ranking Member and members of the committee. The members here today are very aware of the details in the bills and the issues facing us in the numbers and impacts that recreation brings trichotomy and people. I have been waiting for this day for seven years so i decided you can read my written testimony and today also you some stories. Seven years ago i was in a meeting in portland, oregon with people behind me and is trying to figure out how to get more permits for groups with kids outside, i was called because of senator whiting mentioned, at the time i was in the state of oregon and people were pretty regularly calling me, Small Business owners saying how do i get a permit, and asked me too book a permit and is there any way they can work with us or can they buy them out so they could do the things they wanted to do and they bring up that meeting because what we ended up doing was deciding we had to create a Training Program to teach them how to navigate the permit process. And we both those Training Programs and had to stop them within a year because people were so angry by the end of the training, we teach them all the processes and procedures and have the force. Com and tell them exactly what you need to do stepbystep and they would hear there was a 23 year mark on the National Forest in the permit stuff was not available that day to help them with their request. So we had to stop the training. Its kind of ridiculous. Permanent application i would submit every year is 76 pages long, we had to tell them exactly where all 14000 participants were going to be every single year, or the date of gestation because of weather or different issues we had to call them and notify them, the other thing we met a philanthropist from seattle doug walker was a person that explained to me the biggest facing is that her kids are bonding with the outdoors. More than anything also the future voters and workers and constituency to understand the value of place, they will not vote to protect it. So i think those are some real reasons why we need to work on permit reform. Next they want to talk about recreational areas. Most are where we have great tools like the rivers active monuments to protect ultra assets in our country. But to my knowledge we dont have great tools to protect were the primary value is recreation and that some folks are afraid of creating a new designation because it might be misused but i think even on halloween we dont need to be afraid of that because of you guys. In other words each new area would have to go through congress and the devils in the details on these. Theres nothing in the provision that prohibits the interchange between recreational uses and resource extraction, the dean where i work often likes to talk about trails in Northern Europe where you can Mountain Bike by wineries and farms and sawmills in their recreational trails that integrate resource extraction and celebrate all the great uses that are publicly owned for people in our economy. That is possible. Youve heard in some previous hearings on this that people have had to go outside the country just to operate because its so hard to operate in this country, does rafting guide and organ that does not good leads trips in africa and nepal because its easier and oregon washington and ive spent years taking people to france because it was easier for me too fly 15 or 20 people to france then to get them to alaska, washington oregon, my experience in the outdoors was arctic National Parks. And i wouldve loved to take in those people there but i cannot do it. The last thing is making recreational party. I laid out a series of strategies that when i look at and involve International Strategy for the economy forward, for doctor recreation economy is the future and certainly these jobs will be with us forever but i think we need to invest in this economy the way we invested in the 20 century and infrastructure. Currently my role in working on crating pathways on the economy and degree programs eventually that will just the technical labor challenges and leadership level challenges that all industries face and our industry. Through my work i know the industry does back these bills, i work closely with the roundtable and represent 50000 companies in america and they support these bills. This is not just me in education saying this is important, this is industry. And i think your area where that my work is about bringing it together, the entire recreational economy to hunt and fish to cross divides. We have a real opportunity to bring people together in a different way. The last thing all say, i think future versions of highquality life in america include Outdoor Recreation at your doorstep, i have a joke that my kid can still draw a better picture of what highquality of life in the 50s than what he could tell you 20 years from now. But we do no places like bin organ are because of that. And i think if we can reform a permit process and have dedicated agency staff that are measured by acrid recreational forced and actuals of National Areas to tell them they need to plan around that we can move on this economy. Thank you mr. Davis. Mr. Bannon welcome. Thank you very much and members of the committee for holding this very important hearing. Were in critical work to address the persistent challenges that are constraining, guided after recreation experiences and we are very grateful for your diligence. This weekend representing knowles the national after little skeptical, Nonprofit Institution which is educated 300,000 students in the 55 year history. Next week all began they been working handinhand on the legislation for years simplifying Outdoor Access for recreation act in a positive development for both of our organizations to have it on our bill today. The act is about finding legislative solutions for commonsense problems. The rulemaking process these agencies have tried to reform the varying degrees of success. In the best cases that are able to navigate the process successfully. In many cases these are ministry to perceive too many obstacles in the practicing of the modification is near impossible. At the capacity analysis we can make additional days available. If the review team is not available they will not have the resources to provide environmental analysis. Those interest take priority over recreation permitting. Fundamentally agencies need to adopt processes to streamline reviews in a power line officers to be more responsive to the needs of the permittees. It would restore reasonable flexibility in permitting providing more options but their hands are tied. To string my two days. Traditionally for 15 years we ran a 12 day course through 72 stretch of river and training our instructors to kayak and run the river. As administrators retire and new people came to the place they were not quickly replaced the forest was constrained and permits and asked to combine the permits to what everybody else was doing in the river. That changed our ability to educators to have two days of clinics and have to clinics. Its stressful. Its partly instructors and hard on the students in a rewarding experience but we would welcome the flexibly. Theyre connecting more people the landscaped in fact, theyre raising the cost of entry. For programs nonprofit alike have no choice to the rising cost of running their business by Cost Recovery fees or layering the gross fees and we are constraining our businesses and for increasing cost and decreasing fncs linking our scholarship dollars to goes far as exist, the scholarship dollars are targeting hundreds of atrisk use every year providing the experience. We welcome an opportunity to free those dollars up and make a more efficient so we can run more for the students. Finally the Cost Recovery were in agency has analysis on her party hopes that it would. If a permanent request with consideration within offices to review and repair the review may take years. In tens of thousands of dollars even for a request. There is no guarantee that after paying for the analysis itll be awarded the days. When Cost Recovery is applied which is applied inconsistently it is often applied halfheartedly. Finally i would say i understand everybody in this room, witnesses, agencies, staffers, audience and or committee alike are here to connect more people with americas incredible outdoor treasures and we truly appreciate the effort to address the challenges in the spirit of the hearing today. Were in this together. Thank you for your time. Thank you to each of you. I want to start my questions out for service, you not only heard the issues that have been presented by the others but you heard the stories that we have shared directly with you whether nearly a ten year effort to help facilitate the activity. Weve come to you with frustrations over the length of time to get permits for some years, much of what we heard back from for service, we dont have available folks to process the permits because what has happened with the tortured industry of fire borrowing we allowed to continue over the course of way too many years that it robbed account and you were adequately enable to staff the good news, we have addressed that in the budget cycle in the procreation bill this morning and were rectifying that. But that does not answer all of the issues and frustration with what we can do better and it comes to these permits on these public lands and how we can facilitate. And thats the need for the legislation were talking about today. And one more try to cut through some of the regulatory or permitting issues. So both be a limb and for service are mandated to manage for multiple use so you have to figure out how you balance recreation and the other uses of the public lands, both of you, how do you do that, how do you basically provide for that prioritization one against the other and then and i might have to add it to another question but i want to hear from you specifically of what you can think you can do within your agency to respond to the frustration the real legitimate frustration and not just say we need more money. Thank you, senator, i appreciate the question and i think the testimony they heard is accurate, as you mentioned weve heard from a number of folks about the lack of Customer Service and the inability to deliver these things, the firefighting is essential it has basically stopped the leading money away from those activities and that is really helpful and will create a stable environment going forward. On the first question about how do you balance, right now for focus its about dealing with the core issue that is driving the fire funding issue and not the condition you condition over forced and the other is wrong Customer Service. How do we improve our Customer Service. Things that were doing right now, this year building off pilots weve done the last two years we have created funding for additional strike teams to focus on permanent operations, we are at any given time have a backlog of expired permits are an acceptable prayer we cut that in half lost time down to about 5000. And that was through the strike teams. We continue to do that with a risk based approach where the problems in the resources to bear. Weve also just this year issued new guidance with developing Customer Service of the timeframe for us to respond we have done this with input from the user groups or are you working the best practices on your own . I think its important that you are acting with consultation with those who were on the receiving end, how much input do take from them . We will in this years budget direction, they sure we will establish the standards which weve never had before about the minimum Response Time and that was issued three weeks ago so that will be the work in the next month working with groups on how we should do that. The final thing i would add is were looking at the process and regulations that are around driving the ways that were showing up that are not capacity related and were looking at the policies on permitting in general and one of the things we work on now, theres over 8000 activities in our permitting processes that we believe may require a permit. Were working to put that into regulation so its a multi tiered approach of adding capacity and a policy inputting and performance matrix. One of the things we have learned, ill use an example when don frank regulations came out and i would hear all of my small banks and small Credit Unions say were getting killed by the regulations i would say spell it out, tell me which ones are really onerous and working there be a level of six. My hope is that agencies listening to the outfitters, the guides, consumers in terms of these are areas that are really bringing some after keeping us from getting a permit that could take eight people out ice fishing. So i hope there is a connect going back and forth and i want to get to you but im over my time so i ask you to respond to my question in the next round. Thank you, madam chair. First of all i want to commend senator heinrichs bill basically. It opens up for me because i come from West Virginia and we have one of the most fantastic rivers as far as rafting and we dont have this problem. Because the state patrol. The state controls access, this is supposed to be for recreation, why is the federal government where we fighting the federal government on this that and everything else. , we have nothing. Were writing into the hall to make sure the state fix something that is not broken. But im learning more and more about how the federal government the park has control but we never did give it to them. And thats the difference. I dont know how we do that, anything i would ask, the heinrichs bill there telling me weve had permit for a long time, theyve enjoyed and have not been used in the ones getting access or prohibited people from how do you the tourism we should have an Economic Vitality from it. Is this only for businesses, if theres a thousand has not been used, could some of those go back or does have to go through an outfitter . Is a former outfitter guide there is not really in most places theres not a limitation on the general public but anywhere with Group Exercises whether through university or business that way you have outfitter guide and thats were many of these relate and illuminating Economic Development despite the fact theres not a resource problem. If there is an overuse problem, thats one thing but in many cases the vast majority there was not a problem. To me it seems like language legislation with the best use practices to enhance recreation in the economy for the purpose of what were trying, they have to continue to make sure that those permits are used in they go back and. If i go out of business and have a permit its torment. Indeed, in montana we have a situation where one outfitter shattered about 15 years ago and they had like 500 years, those days were never recovered and as it is considering in the process permitting, they have a moratorium on any additional permits. So we know its reduced but we also see no additional use being reworded to anyone. I say thank you, senator and we can work with you for all of you on the western landsend if anyone thinks they cant get on the river, come to West Virginia we will not prohibit you at all, come with a guide, get an inner tube, whatever you want were good with it. Thank you, madam chair. Madam chair, i think these are all my apologies. Thank you for your testimony today, we had a very good here last year in colorado and under 2000 ski resorts in the state and those are all over other talked about coming off a record in the river basin in a record amount of snowfall in the colorado basin and other areas as well a Record Number in the ski season so it was an incredible year. Can you walk you what you see the business side. I think thats right and part of the momentum i talked about in the industry so coming off a 2018 and 2019, it was not good in one place and dart in other places, snow was up 31 and was equally distributed. So the fourth best year in the industry in terms of visitation is back up to 59 million secure vote under visits. Everyone is excited about that and that momentum is rolling over and we had the snowiest october in the long term in colorado, good cold temperatures and a lot of snowmaking going on, some in colorado in the month of october. Everyone is excited. But the other thing that has industry bullish and driving momentum is advance commitment that guests are making the new season guest products, its a win for the consumer in the industry when people and advance commit. Without success has invest infrastructure to make upgrades to equipment facilities drought the properties and to develop more accommodations for the growing number of visitors, what does that mean in terms of constraints that they face in recent years on federal land and trying to advance the Capital Improvement projects they are able to make because of the successes and hopefully this year as well. The momentum and folks want to capture that momentum and first and foremost, none is intended or should be taken as commentary on the great work of the Forest Service, their tremendous partner, what were trying to do is address the constraints that our partners are facing. We cannot be a healthy industry without a healthy partner. Just a couple of examples, there is a ski area they currently dont have a permit administrator in their forest and that means there delays, they want to bury power lines in the ski area, they cannot get started on that. When you have the lower funding regimes, lower Staffing Levels in staff turnover and details the details run out and people leave and that impacts the ability and were seen and delay in project implementation for a new snowmaking system and trails at a western ski area. In the testimony was it was a nine month cause because they cannot accept applications for process. We have competing ski areas on by different entities in a single forced having to elbow each other out trying to get one project to feel like it has capacity to do. One thing i dont want to miss are the avalanche centers, that the Forest Service house. Theres 13 around the country and their underfunded by about half and that gets filled in by friends and donations but thats a local service that gets provided. In your opening statement, 2011 legislation that passed and signed into law allowing for the recreation that has put greater pressure. Can you talk about how this legislation will allow us to address the recreational needs for the service lacks in 2011 you could call it an Unfunded Mandate we started applying for more summer activities and reducing the stress in the white river we think we are down about 40 on overall funding its been more than the white river. That force in the region has done Everything Possible to keep up with the industry and i think that they estimate good job and when we were talking about the strike team they did absolutely in consultation with the history and making we are starting to some of the fruits of that. Thank you madam chair. Enqueue madam chair and i want to start by saying i think these are all really important bills and really compatible. Addressing the basic resource issue i think is also really important than just getting that outoutthere and setting fire which the chair in a number of people on the committee have done a remarkable amount of work and we are starting to see that in the appropriations process, the recreation is still only 5 of the Service Budget and that is despite the fact it is the single largest economic driver across the Service Today so it generates more and by limiting that and not making it more of a priority what we are doing is limiting Economic Development especially in the rural committees. So i think we have to revisit our and we have been operating without an existing permit, an agreement in their certainly working with us to get it there but it is pretty tenuous situation to begin. Speaking of murky, if i asked you to explain it to me, could you or mr. Davies . Not easily. Id be happy to, a try to process a new law permit about eight years ago, the permit application law went in and it was clear at that time the Environmental Review would be somewhat significant. They asked for i believe about 14,000dollar down payment to the recovery work. This was six or seven years ago. Just to get in the door. To my knowledge that money has not been spent and has not been returned. So not only did it to stall but the Cost Recovery is about covering the cost of going through the process of the permit and paying for the various review processes. Which can be a giant barrier to entry. I love talking about montanas economy. It is a pillar in fact its our Outdoor Economy they are estimated to bring in 7. 1 billion in Consumer Spending about 286 million in revenue to the state and local government and 71,000 direct jobs nearly 10 of all jobs in montana. In one poll, 87 said they are outdoors enthusiasts. My question is who are the other 13 in montana. Its a fundamental driver of the economy. Despite other things like being in the wilderness, we got out and did our 20 to 30mile loop from some of it off trail and that is what we define as a good time in montana. There is a bipartisan i want to thank senator heinrich for his leadership streamlining the permitting process making it easier for families that want to fish in our great rivers and want to backpack this will help to that end. Its heavily supported by the outfitters including the association and the montana guide and so many more. I will continue to fight to get this bill passed and to help protect the Outdoor Recreational heritage which we have in montana. As you know the bipartisan act helps to streamline currently a burdensome permitting process. Can you explain how making key reforms in the process will help increase recreational opportunities . Thank you for the question. It currently issues about 1,000 permits and we oversee about 4600 permits at any one time. Currently most activities do not require a permit if we support this bill to help improve the those permit activities. Secretary bernhardt has several orders to help in this regard. We are working on an ongoing distance of the public users can apply to the special permits online. In places like montana we have a checkerboard pattern in effect thursday missoula company about every outdoor enthusiast has that app on their phone that lets us know where we are at in terms of who has the Land Ownership regarding multiple public agencies. He might be on the fish and wildlife. The farmers and ranchers know sometimes that forcing the outfitters to get permits from three agencies, to departments, it just doesnt make sense. There are numerous agent fees these that have different permitting processes and doesnt it make sense in a single permits would save the Department Time and money and result in more people getting permits we probably would require a permit and i completely understand the challenge i used to work in oregon with the ownership thats a snow who has a Land Ownership, especially regarding agencies, you could be on a foreign service, he might be on a service refuge, all in the matter of a relatively short walk and i can tell you they have no idea what federal agency manages the land they are feeding on by the way the ranchers and farmers no where the elk are feeding but forcing them to get permits from three agencies, to departments for day hand in just doesnt make sense the deal why has numerous agencies it all have different processes and we talked about that a bit already doesnt make sense of having a signal permit will save the Department Time and money and result in more people getting more permits, spending more time outside. Thank you for the question, absolutely we support the provisions of the bill to delegate the authority so that we can have that multi jurisdictional ability to issue those permits, and you know hunting probably wouldnt require a permit and i completely understand the challenges to work in western oregon where the checkerboard urgency was there so i understand the frustration that management, that checker board ownership could create some awkwardness. I can tell you outdoor enthusiasts came to spend time outside, contemplate checkers, sometimes you wonder i recently her frustration from groups and leaving a filming permit on public lands. The small time businesses cant. Mister french my last question, i was quickly running out of time, what can we do to simplify film permanence and make them more uniform across the agencies. I think theres a number of things that we can, our staff is working on looking at our permits because we feel the process right now is too cumbersome. We will get back to you on the specifics senator but that is a focus on overall reform. It would be hopeful and see us another yet another part that drives Economic Activity we like to show a foreign landscapes that make a great background for her films, we would appreciate your help there. They appreciate you bringing that up, you know we are visited and frustrated with this issue and visited with the film crew and photographers and part of the frustration was there were different basically different rules or regulations from one of land agency to another so is different on Forest Service that on parks, again if all youre trying to do is take pictures of our extraordinary public spaces to have to jump through the level of hoops that we did, not have a smaller phil cruz we were able to work some of that, that was good but still its something we need to continue working on, lets go to senator king, actually i think its cortez beginning to go first, and we are good on . Okay thank you i appreciate that. Lets talk about beautiful nevada, Outdoor Recreation and first of all happy nevada day, this is a holiday for us we celebrate our statehood very proud overstatement also Outdoor Recreation and this is something that is really important to me and ive been talking about it on it is increased jobs, generates opportunities for individuals who may never get the chance and all of a sudden boom a light goes on because someone had the opportunity to bring that out there, im curious does anyone have his story with respect to something that they have experienced . I think all of us have those stories especially all of us here today. The thing that i keep talking about is going outdoors has all these other benefits besides the economic benefits. We know that it improves mental and physical health, we know especially among kids sparks an interest in lifelong learning. Its these early moments that turn on the light ball up and tell us that we need to be stewards of the land. Its not just there but we have to take care of it. Its healing i think there is a part of it, there is some sort of healing that goes with it as well, that is some of the things that i learned when i was talking to the veterans who were dealing with some ptsd and some issues, they are now experiencing the outdoors in part of that is helping them with their healing process as well. Right and thank you for your pillow on accelerating veteran recovering and sponsoring. There were some studies recently, i think taking 72 veterans out on a Research Study and there is a 27 reduction in ptsd symptoms because through that study, what exceeds the success rate for prescription drugs. Thank you and i know we have so much time but the reason i want to explore all this is because its important that we make access available to everyone and we streamline the permitting process, that is why we are here for these bills and i think there is conceptually a reason why i support that streamlining process and we all to. Here is my concern i think from hearing from our federal agencies, its great youre in the process of tread into this streamlining now but how law has this process been taking place, 70 years. My concern every time theres a new administration there is changes, unless we codified somehow in law and that is why i support what we try to do with this legislation is to make sure long term there is this coronation but i appreciate the agencies from moving forward on this. Let me ask well i have an opportunity here, i think mr. Require brought this up the concern with the avalanche services and i think you said there are 13 throughout the four service birther under funded by half so im curious your thoughts on that and im of the senate bill the ski area act will help address that issue. Thank you for the question, we agree if you look at the overall capacity to deliver not firework its draft, you are seeing acute symptoms of that in cases like this. This bill will directly help provide capacity into managing the permits that provides additional capacity that well use in those areas and help in other areas, so it is a direct help. When you talk about the work they are doing an avalanche safety do you also talk about, will this help you with education as, well is that a key piece they are doing when you address the services. Well the key focus about the Services Prevention and safety and preventing avalanches from occurring so education is a key part of that law. This is my time, thank you. Senator king, first man i chair we mispronounce the word recreation, it really is recreation and that is the essence of what we are talking about its the repeoples hearts as well as when they entered the outdoors, i think its important that the word is recreations. Anyway you mentioned 300,000 people, one of them some 30 years ago is an extraordinary experience madam chair was in alaska and it was a great experience so i want to thank you for what it does for 300,000 plus people around the country. More so certainly there is a theme here that bothers me, we had a hearing a couple of weeks ago, senator cassidy has a bill to increase staffing to processor and permits and here were talking about bills to increase staffing and be able to respond more promptly and efficiently to permits, the bottom line is the federal government can work if theres no one to answer the phone and are going through a period where bureaucratic is a dirty word and where we have hiring freezes and freezes of salary, no raises and then here we are talking about delays in permitting because somebody was to something else, had a Land Transfer and current to the permits, i think we need to realize this is part, this is where she could have the same hearing and practically any committee, the department of agriculture and fish and wildlife, anywhere that process is complaints and permitting applications from our citizens, so i think its important to point out madam chair that you cant have it both ways you can bully rogue on bureaucrats and then complain that permits arent being granted at a timely fashion, i think thats an important point and im seeing a pattern develop here, finally a specific question mr. Require im curious about this bill. Senator gardner is in here, in the section i think its five on a three it talks about what the money can be used for, most of the discussion has been for administrative costs, reducing permitting time, staffing of the agencies no problem there but that indictment other things he can be used for an interpretation activities, Visitor Services and signage law could you buy a new chair lift with this money been. Could you build a road law. The ski company could submit an application. If youre talking about increasing your infrastructure of your ski area, what is that mean . On im a little concerned that we are talking about federal money human to finish before you go to his there is no magic requirement or anything talkative used for, what is that mean Visitor Services . I think first and foremost a do launch an out of these dollars would be used for payment or if i restructure for a private company. But earlier use the word infrastructure about five days on five times today. When i say infrastructure immediately permitting and processes that our company must go through in order to make that investment. So this money will go to pay the cost of the ski area on . Know currently ski areas pay for all the environmental work through Cost Recovery, i dont anticipate this going when the contracts that go to a third party they last except the work of that third party back into the federal government that takes the for services haunt. I want to be on record for this term visited, Visitor Services ive gathered that we are talking about things that has the service experience, thats what it says and then it also says oddly enough, it forbids using this money for Fire Suppression order for Land Acquisition to fill out an area, i find this a little disturbing and madam chair when we get to mark up id like some more information because it says interpretation activities, visitor information and signage. Its a pretty broad term and i want to know what that means because i dont think we should be funding chairlift or if we are going to find that kind of thing there should be some kind of matching requirement or limitation, do you want to respond . Certainly not the intent to subsidize and he actually infrastructure, when we say Visitor Services we meet things like signage that lets visitors now there are another National Forest. When we say this we mean having Law Enforcement available law to visit. This means having the ability for rangers to be out on the forest in the ski area. If thats what we are talking about i dont think we have a problem, im just worried about the vagueness of the language and i dont understand why the money could be used for forest Fire Suppression on the unit. It seems like something we would want to, put it . I think the concern be that the Fire Suppression answer so great that it could quickly take everything. I. C. E. , thank you. Law senator king and i appreciate you law mentioning. That what we want to, let the record show i had that question before was planted but i do think its an important part of what we are doing and are learning more about these issues and looking at the legislation that has been proposed and i think we all know that even contained within these three bills theres gonna be some ideas that will be profited from this and seen as senator manchin mentioned in his opening comments what were seeking to do is take on the security not like we did with our Energy Storage initiative where we had five separate bills Work Together to put together a package and i think the goal here is to really build a robust recreation, recreationally package coming out of the committee. I appreciate on the direct focus on some of this language. I think we need to make sure that he it all works and i wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to the same question i had asked mr. French about have you balance the reclamation uses on this, how you determine that and then along have some other questions for the rest of, you go ahead. Thank you for the question, it bounces those resources to be three will Land Use Plan so also secretary bernard has issued many secretarial fortuitous around racking recreational taxes and start landing permits through several secretary runners. We are following those in implementing those and like i said balancing those three were Land Use Planning process. I think we recognize the processes are a little bit different between agency and on their is, there is a difference in terms of the ease of operational it is internal to me user friendly, so again these are things we want to explore a little bit further. I want to bring up an issue that you and i have shared when we have been all actually in the Congress Last year with the secretary and i raised her with the secretary at the time because its something i continue to be here as i am home and the state and specifically in the tiniest although they had to guess as well this comes up when you have volunteers, people who really love their outdoors, this is our forest and where we play at where we recreate and they have seen and degradation whether it is public trails or whether the Forest Service cabins and all they want to do is how, they want to be the volunteers know make sure that the Little Campaign is kept better after they leave for their nice weekend and the level of frustration i have heard from individuals who have said all we wanted to try to do is how an order to be certified as a volunteer to be able to go out we have to demonstrate no weve got, we are certified how to run a chainsaw, though we have fullon red cross treating these are men and women know more about the National Forest and most any of us would on any given day on and they just feel like they have been disenfranchised and discouraged from trying to make a good partner as, this is something i know the secretary cares a lot of echo because on this not only is good pertaining but it gives us that russia in our own forest. So if you can speak to what, what you were doing more than a Forest Service to law prohibiting order instructing volunteers from coming together to be helpful, low we can do here and congress to help facilitate foliage here efforts, while putins appeal did is a park service, just volunteer day out the great falls area and our or september with lanterns. It was a great day for us but it was what day, we were very strictly supervised by by fabulous folks from the parks but our public lands need all of us chipping in but it seems like the old government says no, from liability reasons is just not safe there you go there, call me out with this. Okay thank you for the feedback and we never want to show up in that way we have a responsibility to protect people and i think that may be a space for sometime of where we can talk about that viability side of things on the other hand of this we have 4. 4 million hours of volunteering and if there are ways that rush showing up that are disenfranchising folks, the way that we are managing that right now is primarily through education of our employees, talking about problem solving and finding solutions to fix that. Its not the case in all places and we see systemic issues these are the places where we start off conversations about the regional policies, local policies that need to be aligned because its part of our problem, we are sometimes showing up differently in different places where we need to create some time and, im always open to hearing more of that feedback especially if we know places for that story on. I know that some of the Community Members come together as a advisory i think that there needs to be more of that and really working together with our for service partners, we see some examples where it is working better than others means but i have specific stories about what we have seen for campaigns that are perfectly good, perfectly usable but theyre pretty real out. Well alaska and the targets is pretty remote, so people have to fly in and the pushback that were getting as well theres not abuse in that particular cabinet because it is remote, okay thats fair we have to make decisions in terms of how you are prioritizing the cost. But if there are those that can and how Forest Service and some basic maintenance instead of service saying no the answer here is we will take the cab it down because its expensive to go check on every year and not that many people are using it but if there are those that can help why are we taking down these great assets. That is something i would like to explore with you in your team little bit more i know it just cant be related to alaska, lets go back to you senator. Thank you i think are getting out a lot it issues that deserve our attention. Miss i dont want to pick up a phone with you but i want to return to the exchange you had with the senator because i think there is a bit of a misunderstanding its true that you said it doesnt require permits for a hunting but i guarantee you having spent some time and in around this business that to guide a hand if you require permits and that is where for a day hot it still requires that special use permit, one of the things we talked about quite a bit here and that i brush a little bit with the chair on his at the film issue and congress somewhere around a decade ago little more than that at the tail end of the Bush Administration Task Department of interior in the serviceable through agencies as well as coming up with unified filming structure. In 2013 there was a draft, not a trash but a proposed rule on, my understanding that was accepted by 83day ally agencies but the service to not accept it and today but we still have a witch match between dui and the Forest Service on those. Mister french do you know what they thinking was and why we still have to different standards for philly . I dont but i will follow up with you, we want to look at that and see if one makes more sense on the other and if theres a way to unify this, just like cross agency permits makes sense i know in new mexico oftentimes when some of these shows film they are trying to operate in areas that have multiple agencies so having one unified agency. Maybe even a unified permit structure where you designate a league agency and taken to months rather than jumping through both agencies might make a great deal of sense. I know you mentioned the categorical exclusions the service is working on with respect to Recreational Activities what you expect final action on those . We are expecting to release our final rule sometime late spring final summer. We were working on that and it will direct the pieces that youve heard mr. Requires another testimony. I look forward to seeing that, thank you very much on. Oh the other part of her job is now considering, we have a series of three votes that have because about ten minutes ago so we will have to wrap up here but i want to thank each of you for your contribution to the discussion here today. I think this is one of those areas when we look to those things that the Energy Committee can help advance that builds a level of support and consensus we have republican bills and democrat bills that we have considered here today and we have matters that people care about because they care on about our public lands, they care about the ability to get outside and recreate or recreate. I like that senator king i will remember it but it really is such an important power not only of our economy but what we are to have as americans, i think we recognize that we have visitors that come from around the world to see our National Treasures and walk through our parks and to float our rivers or take an inch or two in senator mansions state. We have extraordinary lands it how we make them available is important but im also very cognizant that the experience is something that we want to ensure is a good one and sometimes that requires a level of regulation and that some of us would rather not have to put up with but it is part of what we do, we also have to recognize that our public lands are not just entirely recreation lands. They are multiple use lands and again how we balance that is an important part of the discussion as well. So as we prioritize thats one aspect of it by making sure that there is access and access in a way that creates the lands respectfully, allows for that good Visitor Experience. It was interesting when i was in the National Park with senator lee extraordinary scene spaces it was my first visit there and it kind of takes your fourth away but we were there in the shoulder season and it wasnt a lot of traffic on the road and just listening to the on, the local folks there and the park service and tended to talking about the increased visitation and how they accommodate that ensure they have a good Visitor Experience in a safe Visitor Experience when you have basically one way and one way out and everybody wanting to see many of these same treasures all at once, so you do this is a challenge on and a good one. I think we have some good legislation in front of us and good ideas to work with, i will certainly be soliciting more as we work to build a broader package but when i think about the component pieces of Energy Measures so we can move through this committee is good to talk about our Natural Resources in the sense of our oil, gas, renewables, generals but also to recognize that the recreation and component on our lands is extraordinarily important for our economy and im from four of our national identity. So we have some work to do and we look forward to doing it with you will, thank you so much, we stand adjourned