Lake erie after a 100mile twisting and turning journey from its headwaters, is an exhaustive stream. Abused and misused by man and his machines. Without the cuyahoga, the spreading megalopolis of clevelandakron would not exist. The river was the reason for settling in the 1780s. The river called crooked by the delaware indians provided a waterway to the interior of ohio so man came and nearly 2 Million People live and work in the river basin. In creating this urban complex, man has used the river as men have always used rivers. The flow has been put to work as a navigable stream, a water supply and as a sewer. Mans mark is everywhere. Is this mark an epitaph for the cuyahoga . Joining us from the cleveland area is David Stradling, a professor of history at the university of cincinnati and the coauthor of where the river burned carl stokes and the struggle to save cleveland. Let me begin, though, by asking, physically, where are you located and explain what happened 50 years ago this month. Hi, steve. Thanks for having me. Were sitting near the mouth of the Cuyahoga River which is to say were sit wting where the cuyahoga reaches lake erie. See over my shoulder one of the Railroad Trestles that crosses the Cuyahoga River. There are a lot of bridges in cleveland. Downtown cleveland is to my left. To my right is ohio city neighborhood, the city of cleveland. Were sitting down in the area called the flats. Which are the lands right along the cuyahoga. They run up several miles. This is the former Industrial Area of the city of cleveland. And 50 years ago, on june 22nd, 1969, there was a fire on the Cuyahoga River at the end of navigation, couple miles south of here, end of navigation meaning boats could not go farther upstream. This is where a couple of low Railroad Trestles blocked some debris that was coming downstream is which is not unusual. The piers from the bridge, they got soaked in oil which also was not unusual. Then there was a spark, perhaps from a sparking train, we dont know exactly what set off the fire. And the trestles burned for about 20 minutes or half an hour. Day were doused by both a fireboat and from crews on the shore. Photographers didnt get there in time to give us a picture of the with the fire that happened in 1969. Thats because Time Magazine which ran a piece about Water Pollution in august of 1969 phom 1952 and simply indicated this was the tugboat basically trapped in flames. It was a very damaging fire. Sl was burning at that point. So most people outside of cleveland would have assumed that, you know, rivers dont catch fire on a regular basis, that what they were looking at in 1969 in Time Magazine is a photograph of something that skrus happened. From there the confusion gets more extreme. People began to think this in 1969 was a catastrophic fire, tremendous damage done, five stories tall, that it burned for hours. I saw somebody who said it burned for days. Mythology around 1969 burning begins to grow. My brother richard and i as we researched the book. Decided probably the reason the mythology about the Burning River why is grows is because peoples thoughts about Burning River having to be a a major event, you know, this is a biblical thing that rivers dont catch fire. It must be a sign of terrible Water Pollution of a type never seen before. And of course the many previous fires dating all the way back to the late 19th century is an indication that the pollution had been a longterm problem. And the first fire going back to 1868 describe describing the cuyahoga that oozes rather than flows and in which people do not drown but decay how bad was the river. I dont think there is any doubt it was terribly polluted in in fact, the pollution was much worse in the 1940s and 1950s which is one of the reasons why theres a significant cluster of fires in those two decades. One of the things the city of cleveland did to improve the Water Quality or at least torly Water Quality or at least to diminish the flammability of the river is to regularly clear the debris from the river and to break up oilth slicks with wate canons. But thats notot something that could be done aboveve the head navigation. So in particularr was not preventible in that way. But cleveland, like a lot of cities had been investing h significant amounts of money ind its Sewage Treatment infrastructure through the 20th century. And i think industry also had been making investments inth icl diminishing the pollution load t that it was dumping into the river. And i think significantly the the Oil Refinery Industry had sa basicallyrd left cleveland by 1969. So standard oil closed its refinery number one which was the last of the major refineries here. So the Water Quality was bad. The ecoology was greatly diminished. There was little ren for people to think of the cuyahoga as a hs ecological space. As a complete river. At the same time it was not as bad as it had been. Along with his brother David Stradling is the core thorough of the bike book where the river burned he maid his way from cincinnati to join us in cleveland on this sunday. We welcome our viewers on cspan3 minor history tv looking back at events from 50 years ago. We are dividing phone lines the region until for those in the eastern half of the country, wd 202748001. For the hea westernr fr side. We have a line for the cleveland and akron area wed love to heas from you if you remember the events. 2027488002. I want to share with you the. A. Words of the president Richard R Nixon creditedon with the creatt of the epa. Here is what he had to say about our environment. In the next ten years we shall increase our wealth by a 50 . The profound questionl is does this mean we will be 50 richer in a real sense, 50 better offd 50 happier . Or does it mean that in the year 1980 the president standing in in place will look back on a decade in which 70 of our people lived in metropolitan areas choked by traffic, suffocated by smog, poisoned by water, deafened by noise and terrorized by crime . These are not the Great Questions that concern World Leaders at summit conferences. But people do not live at the uo summit. Any live in the foothills of everyday experience. And it is time for all of us toe concern ourselves with the way real people live in real life. The great question of the 70s is, shall we surrender to our surroundings . We make ourp peace with begin to make represent arations for the damage done to our air, land and to our water . [ applause ]ixon in from a 1970s state of the 10 union address. And David Stradling as you hear that from Richard Nixon in 1970 one year after the fire along the Cuyahoga River, your reaction. I think its a recognition of just how powerful an issue a political issue the environmentw had become. Nixon articulates in a very so common way at the time, which is to kind of suggest that things had just gotten so bad that now we finally have to deal with cul them. But you know asy my earlier comments suggest, that the virmg wsh o particularly the urban virmt around industry was so bad for so long that mostly what he is articulate something a changing sense that now we need something, because american citizens are demanding that they be given access to clean water and clean air, that their cities not be as filthy as they had been. I think that this is mostly a u recognition that ath tide had changed, that a series of events, including the Cuyahoga River fire, but also the Santa Barbara oil spill. There is a pesticide spill on the rhine river a couple days e afterto the fire in cleveland. All of these things build up on the spectacular events, to remind people just how bad the urban environment and industrial environment had become. As you look at the river behind you, how does it look toa you today . Y . Its remarkable the change that has taken place here. Becau its twofold. Its i mean itsst difficult to tell exactly whats going on in the water itself of course because d its still the. Milky brown rivr thats flowing out of agricultural and forested land, still has debris that floats ky downstream. But see fowl, something you wouldnt see 50 years ago, rnin. People out kayaking. I saw people in skulls earlier this morning. S an the cuyahoga has once again a much more complete river. It is an agricultural space im sorry a recreational space. There are new parks, new publich access along the river for people for the whole region. And this is something that goes well south of the city of nal pa cleveland. Rk the Cuyahoga RiverCuyahoga Valley National park has become kind of a regional and a National Treasure really. Its a remarkable space for recreation, getting out of the s city. Our clevela guest is david s, thehe coauthor of where the ie have burned, joining from us cleveland ohio, a professor of l history at the university of cincinnati. Before taking our first call weg want to t thank the music box ee supper club allowing us to put cameras in place to allow davidt stradling to share with us onsite on the scene of what its was like there and fact that its a supper club, there are bars and restaurants on thes flats tells you what. It tell us that this is a part of the city clevelanders are interested in returning to. This is notah an entirely new movement. In the 90s that cleveland started to reimagine the flats that so much industry moved out. There is an awful lot of interesting architecture here. Mostly you see the engineering. N its a spectacular space. The engineering of the various bridges. There are lots of different kinds of bridges, making it an interesting place to be. In the 1990s we had a bit of a kind of a kindling of this of this culture down here by the flats. And its come on much more intensely in the last, oh, five or ten years, much more capitala put in down here. And this is really one of the highlight areas of clevelands l culture. From nearby lorraine, ohio, o sandra, you are first up. Good morning. Yes, good morning. These rivers flow into the laken lake erie. Lake erie brings in 800 billion of revenue every year. So when in pollution well this pollution is very costly. And let me just add to that, that i live in lorraine, which has a river black river, which also leads into the lake. And a couple days ago there was an oil spill on the lake. And im im sorry on the river. And also there not to take away from that the rivers. But there was a spencer lake where a truck was found to be spewing outwi chemicals into a t wildlife refuge in spencer lake. And. Thank you, sandra were going to jump in and a response. Yeah, sandra points out, obviously, the problems of pollution have not been completely solved. There is still a lot of industry around lake erie, of course, and the other great lakes, even clear here in cleveland. T lorraine has a steel mill. Ve but herestme in cleveland the mo steel mills are up and running. L i do, believe they have made significant investments in Water Pollution control and also air pollution control. But no doubt accidents happen. Lf and there are, of course, other kind of contributors to Water Pollution. Cleveland, like rots ofmbined c that grew in the late 19th and early 20th century has combined suers. Meaning that sanitary sewage combines with storm runoff. Int and when it rains that means that untreated sewage flows into both the cuyahoga and directly into lake erie. We also know that lake erie ost, suffers from nonpoint pollution nonpoint source pollution. Agricultural runoff mostly no e particularly fromrm toledo in t monmi river. As i tell my students there are no permanent victories in environmental protection. Its an ongoing effort. You have to adjust to new threats, new problems. And to be sand ridge lantd about regulation and enforcement. To the west of cleveland is toledo tim is on the air. W yeah i kyu up, born and raised along the source of the u wamy river. My da flowing into lake erie. I can remember as a kid, the foams, when the water washed out i used to fish with my as dead. It was foamy and dead fish on theno river. As a kid you dont know thats not normal. But it was disgusting thinking back. That was in the 70gs. I remember the commercial with the indian where he walk along the garbage and all that, tear on his cheek all that. Have now the the river and all that is a lot better. We got small mouth bass in there that was never in there before. Always karp and sea pad and sometimes the game fish like the wahl eye run but now its p cleaned up a lot. Lately now all of a sudden we seem to be getting back to do t we dont care about protecting the environment. That. Because like we won the battle e and we doing the same thing al over again with the oceans and all that. Its sooner or later we got to wake up and realize you cant keep polluting where you live at. I mean its just logic. Tree basic facts. But if you Say Something to somebody youre a tree hogger op want to destroy the planet all u the crazy things said . Cant be with be a logical species and say we cant 500. Years aigt you didnt go upstream and relieve yourself and downstream and get drinking water. Weve gotten stupid as a specie which is the environment. We are poisoning ourselves. Thats how zbliefl thank you for the call. Wheat well get a response. S ree yeah, i appreciate the where reference to the foaming river. He is referring to a period of time when the detergents were adding lots of phosfates. This was a new load. They got clothes cleaner but waterways dirtier. Providing nutrients. And we got algo blooms in the mid1960s. That was solved through regulation. But, you know, we no longer see the visible, you know, suds from that problem. But we do see some visible problems in lake erie. Including the algo blooms that happen every summer. S mostly contributed by agricultural runoff. S as acan be broader comment, i m, the visibility of Environmental Issues can be really important h toat gathering, you know, image political will. I think thats one of the t reasons the cuyahoga fire became so important because even thougl the imagey came from a differene fire, the imagery of a river on fire really galvanized people. It was a recognition. Thats one way to see water plagues is foz a river on fire. Otherwise, as i said its tests. Assess the Ecological Health of a river. You have to do tests then its issue of numbers rather than visibility. This is an issue that has o iden playinged trying toti solve the problem, the larger problem of i Climate Change. Is its difficult to identify an imagery that can create this political valance that gets a re people moving the way nixon was forced to move in 1970. With the Cuyahoga River behind opheim our guest is David Stradling. Ourp next caller is audrey from decatur blachl. This is audrey from decatur, alabama i havent called in about a year. But boy you have really touched something ifd ocd about. The plastic bottles, the plastic plates, jugs, i have told my sister andd threatened to carry my cat litter big plastic bucket when it gets empty refill it and leave it at target. But i want to remind people, this fourth of july, you know, you cant find the little thin paper plates anymore. Silver w plets, please, please, wash your plate and use your own silver ware. And love cspan. Love all yall, steve and have a wonderful day. Thank you. Audrey. Thank you. David stradling what about the plastic bags and Water Bottles and other debris . That is certainly an ongoing problem as far as the great ocean of course into which they flow. You know, we do see trash debril floating down river which has been a longterm problem. But of course now its plastic it lasts much longer and doesnt break down. She is absolutely right. This is something that needs attention. You know, going all the way back to the first earth day in 1970, the focus there for students for young people generally was to th pick uper trash, much less of which would have been plastic at the time. But there again, its about that effort was about visibility, right, that you can see that there is an ecological and environmental problem. Because you can see the trash. And even though it may not be the most urgent of issues in 1970. It was one people felt they could tackle and put effort into. And and i think we see cleanup efforts on river banks. Certainly on the ohio im from cincinnati. Every year we have a major cleanup around the river banks. It makes its a visible problem with a very visible impact when you pick up the trash. Brief history of the Cuyahoga River, which the river that bends in cleveland, ohio. There are reported at least 13 separate fires. The first dating back to 1868. The largest fire we talked about a moment ago in 1952, causing z more than 1 million in damage. And in 1969 Time Magazine e pers describing theon cuyahoga as th. River that oozes rather than flows. And in which a person does not drown but decays. A key person in all this was ths mayor of cleveland ohio, and the subject of your cover story, carl stokes his response to all this at the time, mr. Stradling. So carl stokes was the first africanamerican mayor of any major city. And, you know, he really understood the problems of urban america. Raised in poverty himself here in cleveland, grew up in one of the most degraded neighborhoods in Public Housing in central is the neighborhood. He had a kind of a unique view on the problems of urban america as far as major politicians are concerned. He well understood that concentrated poverty and adequate housing were primary concerns for residents in cleveland. But he knew that cleveland itself could not recover if its Water Quality continues to diminish, and particularly if air quality continued to diminish. Unlike many politicians of his era, when he spoke about the problems of urban america, he completely mingled the Environmental Crisis with the n urban crisis. Ing he tended to talk about both at the same time. T right . Andith al solutions to one prob were fallout going to solve the urban america. D you had to deal with all the problems at once. Morni they were all interconnected. So the day after the cuyahoga s caught fire h on a sunday morning so on a monday on morning he calls has his b staff call together the local press and takes them on what my brother richard andnd i call th pollution tour. They meet at the railroad iscuss trestles where theed fire took place. And i hen th discusses generall problems of Water Pollution in o the cuyahoga but also about lake erie, noting that the city of cleveland was really powerless to solve the problems of Water Pollution. In fact, much of the polluted water comes into cleveland from its suburbs, farther away citiel like akron. Talks but most direct will i from cuyahoga heights, just beyond the city limits. Ot he talks about the way in whiche the suburbs themselves had not created Sewage Treatment plants, had not tied into the city Sewage Treatment plants, that the state of ohio actually issued permits to industries inside of the city of clevelandh that allowedat them to pollutee Cuyahoga River. There was really very little that carl stokes could do himself to clean up the river. R he needed allies, suburbs to pad cooperate. He need the the federal government to create new regulations and to provide resources to expand sewage [ind treatmentis particularly. Lets go to tom joining us from twins berg, ohio. Good morning. Good morning, cspan and thanks for having me on. I would just like to say im a proud clevelander. And that from what i understand the Cuyahoga River wasnt the only river that was catching on fire in those days, and that since that happened im glad that this show is on and showing that cuyahoga just has cleaned up as well as it has. It has 18 different new species or species of fish coming back down to the river. And we take priefd cleveland. Unfortunately we took the brunt of jokes after the river caught on fire. We havent lived that down. We still hear about it. Im a proud clevelander. Other cities had the same problems. From what i understand thats all i have to say. Thank you, david and cspan. Thank you. And David Stradling as you look behind you you see a cargo ship. And earlier we saw kayakers and small boats. So it really is a Cross Section of what the river can navigate. Yeah, he makes a very good point about the cuyahoga not being the only river that caught fire. The river rouge in detroit, terribly plotted industrial river. The Buffalo River in buffalo, of course. The even the hudson caught fire. Is wasnt unheard of. Whats interesting is that the cuyahoga caught fire much more frequently than any other river which has to do the way in which the river operates as a river. Its a narrow windy, slowflowing river. The mix of the industry here, the number of bridges that caused obstructions and gathered debris. More of a fire hazard than others. But all of the ingredients were present in other places as well. He also points out that cleveland you know this becomes woven into the mistake on the lake reputation about cleveland. You know, obviously cleveland gets more negative attention because of the river fire. But honestly i think in the hisy longtermth it serves the an cleveland fairly well, this mythology, that people began to think of in as kind of an important water shed moment, a birthplace, if you will, for significant attention to Water Pollution in the United States,] to an impetus to the clean water act which came along fl 1972. Although lots of other water aways in the United States including lake erie behind me were terribly polluted. We begin to weave a story that has the cuyahoga at the center of that. And i think there is something t to be said for go ahead. Please, continue. Oh, well i think there is something to be said for the way in which the city has taken pride in the improvements that have happened since over the subsequent 50 years, the transformation of the banks along the river, the opportunities that are here to reimagine the Cuyahoga River itself. But also the entire city of cleveland, becoming a postIndustrial City. R i wanted to mention clevelad hosting the 2006 republican d National Convention and this year hosting the all star games the its coming back. Saw i want to share more from the documentary two years after the fire. The film makers traveling through cleveland in 1966 came back appear saw this. By the time the kieg oi oa river reaches cleveland. It is already dead. There is little life of any kind in its water. In all 4 Sewage Treatment plants and at least 28 known industries, discharge waste into the river during the 100mile trek to the lake. The cleveland southerly treatment plan adds another 75 million gallons of ee fluent to the river alone. Now it is the river known throughout the world as the only one that burns. You know we talk about cleaning up lake erie but the thing about cloning up lake erie is not in the lake so much. Its in the tributaries. We have to clean up sources and the tributaries and stuff washed into our lake. Industries in the flats area which use river water find they have to clean it first. Then many dirt it more before dumping it back. There are proposals to cleaning up the river. White the port area will never be a trout stream it can be made not to smell. The costs for cleanup maying staggering. I guess the question boils down to two things. First as a civilization we have to toilet train ourselves and stop putting waste in the water plays or at least get them cleaned up before we do. Second we have to clean up the mess we made over the past many decades. From the 1971 film, a the river dies, epilogue what changed between 69 and 71 through today . How did we get to this point. I think there are several things affecting this place in particular. Obviously the federal regulation and federal [ ships horn ]. There you go. Its a living river, right. Federal regulation matters an awful lot. But the investment too, in Sewage Treatment. And making certain that suburban communities tie into Sewage Treatment plants. That all matters. I also think in this particular location the fact that so much of the industry has left means that clevelanders have to worry rest about water and air pollution. Of course it means that they have to matter more worry more about jobs and what the evolving economy will become. But with all of the industries situated along the cuyahoga and along the great lakes, what was the thinking of those executives that basically used the rivers and lakes as a dumping ground . Yeah, i think mostly the idea is that the lakes and rivers could handle the pollution loads, at least early on. I think there is very limited understanding of what happens to pollution once you put it in a waterway. There was a hope and expectation that polluteants would break down or simply be carried away. That is certainly the case for industry and communities. That dumped into waterways, is the sense that it would be gradually diluted and become harmless. Of course, that is untenable when you get so much industry concentrated in one place. At that point it becomes difficult for industries to figure out how to work into their Capital Investment structure the incredible amount of investment necessary to change the way that they perform their basic processes. Industries do make those changes early on. Republic steel, which was here, creates new settling basins so they dump less iron filings into the Cuyahoga River. Some problems are more difficult technologically to solve. And some so difficult to solve that industries basically stop functioning here and move to places where regulation is less intense. And of course we know from david mccullochs best selling book that cuyahoga is a indian name representing what . The cuyahoga means crooked river. And gives the accepts of just how me andreaering. Its crooked here in the city of cleveland where there are dramatic bends you cant get the sense here behind me. But in fact that is the artificial mouth punched out in the 19th century. The large boat that came by and startled me was coming from the old river which took a sharp left to behind me. And he is on cue with sounds. In the other sense its crooked it comes from the south around akron but its source is actually a little bit north and well to the east of cleveland. So it heads south and then heads back north. We welcome our Radio Audience guest is David Stradling, where the river burned, carl stokes and the struggle to save cleveland. He joins us from cleveland. And mary on the phone from peninsula, ohio. Good morning. Good morning. I actually as a young girl i learned how to swim within the Cuyahoga River a little bit in a small town called mantawa before you get into akron. Thats actually i grew up along the river. And after you got past akron is where much of the pollution claim. Im 58 years old. So this fire occurred in 69. I was literally 9 years old at the time. But it was all over the news. My father was a truck driver who hauled steel out of the flats there in cleveland. And at that point in time you would not be the air pollution was so bad that you would not be able to see david where he is standing at at this moment. 30 miles from cleveland you could smell the air pollution. And when you got close to cleveland the air was actually yellow filled with sulphurs from the steel mills. And from the other factories that were up there. The streetlights were on in the middle of the afternoon because the air was so polluted. And the residents in the houses living close to the area, their homes were gray with pollution. I have seen the Cuyahoga River as a child. And watched it literally it did not flow. It kind of creeped along literally as an ooze filled with foam, floating dead fish, and it was amazing because the area of the cuyahoga that i grew up by was clean, we were swimming and catching fish in it. But 30 miles away you saw floating tires. Floating logs, floating everything and anything. Boats upside down that were floating down the river. And the stench that came from the river and from cleveland at that point in time was so horrendous. And the Health Issues of anybody living in that area. It is a night and day difference between what it had been permitted to become to what it is now. Mary thanks for the firsthand account. Well get a response from the guest. Appreciate you joining the conversation zbra mary is calling from one of my favorite little towns in northern ohio, peninsula is down actually inside of the National Park on the cuyahoga valley. Yes, she is absolutely right. To talk extensively about air pollution which i think most clevelanders would have identified as the worst of the environmental problems in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Certainly it was a visible problem and i think a major impetus to the clearing out of the city as developers in the 1950s and 1960s arabling new subdivisions well away from the industrial core as more and more americans have automobiles and can commute longer distances as we invest in highways so people can take the longer communities. People choose to live farther from polluted environments. And i believe that the the cleaning up particularly the air pollution but also Water Pollution allowing people to return to beaches along lake erie here in the city has been an important part of the revival of american cities, including cleveland. That in a less polluted urban environment people feel much more comfortable raising their children, much more comfortable spending recreational time. So i do think that carl stokes was absolutely right when he indicated that you cannot solve the urban crisis in the United States without also solving the Environmental Crisis. Its a summer of anniversaries. 50th anniversaries we talked about the stone wall uprice last we can. It was in 69 the Cuyahoga River caught on fire. And next month. Neil armstrongs historic moon launding and walk on the mean. July 1969 we will feature that on saturday july 20th from the air and space museum. Jenny on the phone from honolulu, hawaii, good morning. Good morning to you. And thank you for this program. Im calling again about some plastics. I was recently on the mainland. Im from st. Louis, originally. My visit was for two months. And i personally went to different gasoline stations each time i filled up can i buy matches . No, you can get them at a Grocery Store or a big drug stores. But you cant get matches anymore where bic lighters are sold in the greatest abundance, i think. And its just funny. We usually get free matches every place cigarettesy sold process. They gave away matches. And i just think thats one of the plolluteants an item unnecessary. The other thing i noticed everywhere is people use plastic containers for liquid soaps when they wash in re hands. When they used to pick up a bar of soap. And its nothing wrong with picking up a bar of soap to wash your hands and all this extra plastic coming into our world makes me very sad. Hawaii is very advanced thinking. We have gotten rid of plastic bags pretty much. Were aching styrofoam and straws. But i also want to say that rivers are attacked in another way besides polluteants they are dammed up for recreation purposes and making power generation. And levies all over the place, restraining rivers from flooding cities and agricultural areas. But, you know, i think maybe we should take a lighter step on the planet and stop being sfo aggressively abusive to mother earth. Thank you for the call, jenny. David stradling are we seeing from other communities whether a tax on the plastic bags or banning competely as we see in new york and elsewhere. Yeah, i think that she is pointing to the idea that you you really cant rely on consumers necessarily to to think all the time about the ways in which their little decisions add up to big impact on the environment. You know, where we have passed through that era of bottle laws, where in new york state has one, many states have them. Ohio does not, that requires that you have a deposit on bottles and cans, including in new york state for bottled water. And those bottle laws as troublesome as they might be for grocers. Not sure what that was. I think there is another big boat coming. Well its interesting if you look behind you because that looks like its a bridge that goes up and down depending on the movement of the shichlts. Did it go up. Its down right now. There is a barge copping down. There is a barge coming down. It may not go out to the lake. But knows kinds of regulations they may seem ob trucive to some but they really matter. The litter in new york state plummeted after they passed their bottle law. And it really is just the political kind of power that certain corporations have that prevents more states from passing those kinds of laws. And i think this is you know, we have seen communities, individual cities pass regulations regarding plastic bags in particular. As an indication that, you know, states have failed to regulate, that they are unwilling to take these steps. And i think well see that more and more in the coming years as cities recognize that if somebody is going to do something about problems like plastic pollution and broader problems like Climate Change they have to make the steps. Mike is on the phone from akron, ohio. Which is part of where the cuyahoga is located. By the way, David Stradling you are doing a great job with the barges and horns. It would startle anyone. Thank you so much. Mike, go ahead, please. Yes, i live in akron, close to the toe pass. Ive hiked the toe path from cleveland to cuyahoga county, Summit County and south, the northern part of stark county. Very proud of it. Its a lot cleaner than it was when i was growing up. But a geographic lesson that begin was the county. It flows south into kent and portage county. From there west into akron. And Summit County. From there north into cleveland. Cuyahoga county. I grew up in the city called Cuyahoga Falls on the border of akron of Cuyahoga Falls. And there was a big dam right on the border of those two cities. I believe they plan to tear it down and by doing so it would indeed make the water even better. And let me mention two other rivers nearby. The little Cuyahoga River flowing into the Cuyahoga River by what used to be called bellevue golf course. Thats where goodrich and fireston dumped. The tuscarosi flows south flows to ohio river. Akron is right on the divide. Even though closer to lake erie than to the mississippi river, only one fourth of the water flows drops into ohio rain water goes into lake erie. Three fourths of the water in ohio flows south to the ohio river down to new orleans. I went to kent state university. Back in 1971. I can tell you a whole lot about may 4th 197 but thats not what this is about. With you as a student i used to hike along the river in the city of kent as well as a young kid throughout Cuyahoga Falls of akron. One last thing i lived by the john cyber willing nature realm. A democrat with reagan a republican those two were the two mainly responsible for the Cuyahoga Valley National park. I love taking the train through that small town of peninsula on route 303. One of the most scenic places in ohio. There is work to be done a lot of work needs to be done to get the river as clean as what it should be. But im very proud to be from this part of ohio. Mike, thank you from akron. David stradling. So im glad he referenced the toe path he is talking about the ohio and erie canal that used to come went down the Cuyahoga River valley and then down the tuscarora to connect to the ohio river. It was an important 19th Century Investment in the transportation infrastructure that helped in region grow and become the eventually the Industrial Center that it became. It is now being recreated into the entire link of it even here in the city of cleveland to become an important recreational route. To some that may not seem important. But it is part of the remaking of an Industrial City to a post Industry City to make it a more Pleasant Place to live, a happier place, healthier place to live. These things all matter in an era when capital can move very, very freely when the kind of industries we rely on now are not terribly place specific, the way Steel Manufacturing was. You know, if cleveland wants to attract more and more hightech employees, then you know creating a landscape that that those people can enjoy when theyre not at work is a is an important part of the puzzle that needed to be done. So i think he is describing, you know, some important changes that have taken place over the last 30 years. I will emphasize that these things dont happen all by themselves. That a lot of hard work gets done to improve the environment to make certain that investments take place. Lobbying local and State Government to make the investments, local communities that do their part to make certain that they take advantage of things like the tow path. It really is something that requires a lot of peoples engagement. And of course were seeing that with whats behind you both in the barge smips and recreational vessels along the cuyahoga. David stradling is the coauthor of where the river burned and darryl joins us from preston, missouri. Good morning. Good morning. I grew up in michigan, and my grandparents had a farm in kingsville, ontario, canada. We used to swim in lake erie every summer. And i remember the first year that we couldnt go swimming was about 56 or 57 because of so many dead perch and bass floating all around. And it washed up on the shore. It was horrible. Thank you for the call. Well go to joan in ormened beach florida. Thank you for taking my call. Im a zren of ormand beach florida. Im surprised to see in the supermarkets they charge 5 cents for plastic bags and all plastic products, Water Bottles. They receive a a 5 cent on each bottle. Joan were getting a bit of feedback. We understand your point. We talked about it earlier. David stradling do you want to address that again. Well i would like to address the beach issues swimming in lake erie if i may because that was one of the things that carl stokes tackled as mayor. He understood cleaning lake erie, the entirety of the lake would fake a lot of effort from a lot of different jurisdictions, including canada but mostly the United States. But there are two beaches here in the city of cleveland. One of which is just to the west of us. And its very close to the Sewage Treatment plan which is also just west of us. Much too polluted in the late 60s and 70s for people to swim any longer and there is more another beach on the far east side of cleveland called white city beach. Carl stokes wanted to make sure people had access to beaches. People lichaj in the suburbs who had their own cars could drive farther out of city to go to beaches clean enough to swim in. But City Residents without cars couldnt do that. So he and his director of public utilities, ben stephen ski devised a system of dropping plastic sheath into the lake. Beyond that they dump color even. Killing the bacteria harmful but also killed all of the fish. Ed this they would clean the beach of the dead fish and then open up the beach for swimming. And for some people in seemed rather miraculous, that they could safely swim in lake erie, take advantage of the resource. From our distance it might seem like kind of an unfortunate baby step. But to me it indicates the way in which carl stokes operated at the local level solving problems for people whose problems he really understood. But also at the same time lobbied the federal government to do the work it needed to do to clean up lake erie more generally. And yet, David Stradling, having grown up along lake erie, it seems as if the tourism along the lake is now thriving. Is that a Fair Assessment . I think it has seen an uptick. I think this is true on on a lot of american waterways, that real estate along lake fronts and river fronts have increased in value. Part of it has to do with an earlier caller talked about the stench which is mostly no longer there. The fact that people can think about the lake and the river as, you know, truly ecological and recreational space, that makes it much more attractive to the changed meaning of it makes it more attractive. Even if you are just looking at it through a window. So i do think we have seen an awful lot more investment along the waterways. Lake erie included. Donald is next from cincinnati. Where David Stradling teaches. Good morning. Good morning, steve. Good morning, david. I was 14 years old 50 years ago when the fire happened. I vaguely remember hearing about it. But i was more concerned about the ohio river. Im from your neck of the woods. You know that. I remember not being able to eat the fish you caught coming from the ohio river. Nobody would do that. And i think what you said earlier is absolutely true, they thought if you just dump it all in the river it will wash away. And weve learned. Im glad of that. And the ohio is a much nicer river now. David. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, the ohio has a much more complicated history, in part because its a much larger river and travels, you know, through lots of industrial regions, has its originals in pittsburgh. Much of the Chemical Industry of West Virginia flows past the city of cincinnati. Its ee fluent from the chemical emile factories. I remember the chemical spills and the city of cincinnati had to close the water intakes and wait for chemicals to pass. I still wouldnt eat fish that come out of the ohio river. An indication that that, you know, there is work to be done. These are cleaner landscapes. But not perfectly clean landscapes. And, you know, we have seen some backtracking in recent years as far as environmental regulation is concerned. Or sanco, the Ohio River Sanitation Commission decided regulations could be enforced locally and not regionally, which i think is very problematic. I dont know if people think that the success has been so complete we can dismantle the regulatory system. But i think that sets us up for future failures. Wayne from bolton, mississippi, quick question or or comment. The in has to go down as one of the greatest i have ever seen. Everybody to watching to see the bridge go up, the kayak going by. This is incredible. In has to be one of the greatest segments of the episode in the world. Beautiful, the train went through. We waited for the bridge to come up. I it was a rightofway. It was wonderful you are doing a great job with David Stradling. And david, ill tell you right now, you are really quite a likable looking guy and doing great job with the horns. Thank you, wayne appreciate the call and the comments. We agree that David Stradling youve been dealing with a lot on scene. Yeah, who knew this was going to be such an active segment. Especially on a sunday morning. This is obviously its a Beautiful Day for boaters in cleveland. Theyre not all so beautiful, i know. But we werent anticipating this much commercial activity. Very quickly the fire took place june 22nd, 1969. A year later earth day, the first one occurred. Yeah. How did the cleveland area react to that . So that was my brother and i thought we were going to writ a history of the relationship between the city of cleveland and the Cuyahoga River. So basically a longer biography of the river if you will. One of the first things i did was look into carl stokess pennsylvania papers at the western reserve historical society, a remarkable collection from his four years as mayor from 67 to 71. In that collection is a couple of wonderful folders filled with letters from children from earth day. In april of 1970, the first earth day in the once abo, a wild success, locally and nationally. Giving a level of concern about the environment and willingness to take steps to do something to clean up the environment. Here in cleveland hundreds of children wrote as part of a School Project or even on their own wrote a letter to carl stokes about the environment, their concerns about environment. And many of them were about air pollution, i think overwhelmingly, the number one concern of the children was air quality. Fast behind that was concern about Water Quality. The vast majority of those students discussed lake erie, because particularly for suburban kids, the inability to fish in lake erie any longer, the commercial fishery had collapsed. And they were no longer suggesting that people could eat the fish that they did catch in lake erie. So it was really really problematic and of course people were having trouble swimming, finding places to swim in lake erie, a real loss to the region. What surprised richard and myself is that that very, very few students wrote about the Cuyahoga River at all. And only one of those hundreds of letters referenced the fact that the Cuyahoga River caught fire. So clearly even just 10 months after the Cuyahoga River burning, it didnt matter that much to local conceptions about the Environmental Crisis. They didnt actually need a river catching fire to let them know that the industrial landscape here in cleveland was terribly polluted. They had lots of other indications of that, particularly the air quality. David stradling now teaches at the university of cincinnati. He is the coauthor of where the river burned, carl stokes and the struggle to save cleveland. Joining us along the Cuyahoga River, 50 years after the fire in june of 1969. Thanks very much for being with us. And thanks for doing a terrific job in light of the cargo ships and all the other noise behind you. Thanks, steve. A pleasure. All weak we feature American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. The lectures in history, american artifacts, real america. The civil war. Oral histories. The presidency. And special event konchal by our nations history. Enjoy American History tv now and every weekend. On cspan3. Week nights this month we feature American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Tonight, a look at world war ii. We begin with High School Teacher karen cabana on food rationing during the war and innovations leading to modernday processed food. She discussed wartime policies dealing with farm labor shortages and food rationing on the home front. Watch American History tv starting 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan3. The cspan citys tour is on the road. Exploring the american story. Bozeman in many ways is a lens into the way in which montana is changing. Its one of the fastest if not the fastest micropolitan areas of growth. With help from the spectrum Cable Partners we take to you bozeman, month. The most famous formation for dinosaurs is the hell creek thats where we find these, two of the most iconic dinosaurs known from the hell creek formation and we have that here in montana. Ivan doig is an incredibly loved author in montana. Ivan gives voice to the working people of montana. Watch in cspan citys tour of bozeman, montana, 6 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan2s book tv. And sunday at 2 00 p. M. On American History tv on cspan3. Working with cable affiliates as we explore the american story. Saturday on American History tv, at 10 00 p. M. Eastern on real america, the 1970 film communists on frpz kwafrpz. Yes communists they proclaim the democratic overslow of the democratic system. Our nation seems unbelieving, unconcerned. Sunday morning at 10 00 a. M. Eastern on oral histories, wood stock creator arty cornfield details the festival coming together. If we took it outside suppose we had henricks and joplin how many people. Michael said 50,000. I said no 100,000. My wife said more than 300,000. Just like that. And i swear to god, i looked off that terrace and i actually saw that field. Thats why when i interviewed in the movie everybody says were you spaced out . Of course i was. I was looking at a dream that came true. And at 6 00 and american artifacts, Virginia Museum of history and culture curator on the exhibit of 400 years of africanAmerican History. They were not content with their lot. They wanted to resist enslavement and tried to run away. Unfortunately they were not successful. They were captured. As punishment for their attempt to escape Robert Carter got permission from the court in