The Cuyahoga River as it reaches lake erie after a 100 mile twisting and turning journey from its headwaters is an exhaustive stream, abused and misused by man and his machines. Without the cuyahoga, cleveland and akron would not exist. The river was the reason for originally settling this portion of the western reserve in the 1780s. The river called crooked by the delaware indians provided a waterway to the interior of ohio. And so man came and continued coming. Until today, nearly two Million People live and work in the river basin. In creating this urban complex, man has used the river as men have always used rivers. The flow has been put to work as a navigable stream, a water supply, and as a sewer. Mans mark is everywhere. Is this mark an epitaph or the cuyahoga . Host joining us from the cleveland area is David Stradling. He is a professor of history at the university of cincinnati and the coauthor of where the river burned carl stokes and the struggle to save cleveland let me begin, though, by asking physically where are you located and explain what happened 50 years ago this month. David hi, thanks for having me. We are sitting near the mouth of the Cuyahoga River, which is to say we are sitting where the cuyahoga reaches lake erie. So you can see over my shoulder, one of the Railroad Trestles , many Railroad Trestles that crosses the Cuyahoga River. There is a lot of bridges in cleveland. Downtown cleveland is to my left. To my right is ohio city neighborhood in the city of cleveland. We are sitting down in the area called the flats, which are the lands right along the Cuyahoga River. They run up several miles. This is the former Industrial Area of the city of cleveland, and 50 years ago on june 22, the, there was a fire on Cuyahoga River at the end of navigation, couple of miles south of here, end of navigation meaning boats could not go farther upstream. This is where a couple of low Railroad Trestles blocked some debris that was coming downstream, which is not unusual. The piers from the bridge got soaked in oil, which is also not unusual, and then there was a spark, perhaps from a passing train. We dont know exactly what set off the fire, and the trestles burned for about 20 minutes or a half an hour. They were doused by both a fire boat and from cruise on the shore. Photographers didnt get there in time to give us a picture of the cuyahoga burning that time, theeventually news about cuyahoga catching fire became international in scope. So this is what we are celebrating, the 50th anniversary of the cuyahoga no longer catching fire. Host but there had been previous fires along the cuyahoga. This was not the first, correct . David absolutely. There were perhaps a dozen, maybe even more, fires on the cuyahoga before the 1969 fire. Probably the one that became most famous is the fire in 1952. It became most famous because many people began to confuse photographs of that much worse fire with the fire that happened in 1969, and thats because Time Magazine, which ran a piece about Water Pollution in august of 1969, either inadvertently or purposefully used a photograph from 1952 and indicated that this was the Cuyahoga River catching fire. That photograph shows a tugboat basically trapped in flames. It was a very damaging fire, training waterrs on a very large oil slick that was burning at that point. Most people outside of cleveland would have assumed that rivers dont catch fire on a regular basis. What they were looking at in 1969 in Time Magazine was a photograph of something that just happened. What they were looking at in 1969 in Time Magazine was a photograph of something that had just happened, and there the confusion only gets more extreme. People began to think that this was in 1969 was a catastrophic fire, that there was tremendous damage that was done, that it was five stories tall, that it burned for hours. I even saw somebody say that it burned for days. So the mythology around what actually happened in 1969 begins to grow, and my brother richard i die, as we researched our book realize, the masala the mythology about the Burning River why it grow so much, peoples thoughts about the Burning River, having to be a major event. This is a biblical thing. Rivers dont catch fire. It must be the sign of a terrible Water Pollution of a type that had never been seen before. Of course, the many previous fires dating all the way back to the late 19th century is an indication that the pollution had been a longterm problem in cleveland. The first reported fire going back to 1868, going back to the Time Magazine piece 50 years ago describing the cuyahoga as a river that oozes rather than flows, and in which people do not drown but decay. So just how bad was the river . David i dont think there is any doubt that the cuyahoga was a terribly polluted river in 1969. I do think that it was not at its nadir, that in fact the pollution was much worse in the 1940s and 1950s, which is one of the reasons why there is a significant cluster of fires in those two decades. One of the things that the city of cleveland did to improve the Water Quality or at least to diminish the flammability of the river is to regularly clear the debris from the river and to break up oil slicks with water canons, but thats not something that could be done above the head of navigation, so this particular fire was not preventable in that way. But cleveland, like a lot of cities, had been investing significant amounts of money in its Sewage Treatment infrastructure through the 20th century, and i think industry also had been making investments in diminishing the pollution load that it was dumping into the river, and i think significantly the Oil Refinery Industry have basically left cleveland by 1969. Standard oil had closed its refinery, number one, which was the last of the major refineries here. The Water Quality was bad. The ecology was greatly diminished. There was little reason for people to think of the cuyahoga as ecological space, to think of it as a complete river. At the same time, it was not as bad as it had been. Along with his brother, David Stradling is the coauthor of the book where the river burned. From cincinnati to join us in cleveland on this sunday. We welcome our viewers on cspan3s American History tv as we look back at the events from 50 years ago. We are dividing our phone lines regionally. 027488000 2027488001 Rauner Pacific time zones. Those in the eastern half and those in the mountain and pacific time zones. We do have a line set aside for ohio residents especially if you are living in the cleveland and akron area. We would love to hear from you. 2027488002. I want to share with you the words of president Richard Nixon, who is credited with the creation of the e. P. A. Here is what he had to say about our environment. President nixon in the next 10 years, we shall increase our wealth by 50 . The profound question is, does this mean we will be 50 richer , in a real sense, 50 better off, 50 happier, or does it mean that in the year 1980, the president , standing in this place, will look back on a decade in which 70 of our people lived in metropolitan areas choked by traffic, suffocated by smog poisoned by , water, deafened by noise and terrorized by crime . These are not the Great Questions that concern World Leaders at summit conferences, but people do not live at the summit. They live in the foothills of everyday experience, and it is time for all of us to concern ourselves with the way real people live in real life. The great question of the 1970s is, shall we surrender to our surroundings or shall we make our peace with nature and begin to make reparations for the damage we have done to our air, to our land, and to our water. [applause] clip]f video host from a state of the union address, David Stradling, as you hear that from Richard Nixon in 1970, one year after the fire along the Cuyahoga River, your reaction . David i think its a recognition of just how powerful an issue a political issue the environment had become. Nixon articulates it in a very common way at the time, which is to kind of suggest that things had just gotten so bad that now we finally have to deal with them. But as my earlier comments suggest, you know, the environment, particularly the urban environment around industry, had been so bad for so long that mostly what he is articulating is a changing sense that now we need to do something because american citizens are demanding that they be given access to clean water and clean air, that their cities not be as filthy as they had been. I think that this is mostly a recognition that a tide had changed, that a series of events, including the Cuyahoga River fire, but also the Santa Barbara oil spill there is a terrible pesticide spill on the rhine river a couple days after. The fire in cleveland. All of these things begin to build up, the spectacular events, to remind people just how bad the urban environment, industrial environment had become. Host as you look at the river behind you, how does it look to you today . David its remarkable, the change that hs taken place here. Its twofold. Its difficult to tell exactly what is going on in the water itself because its still the milky brown river thats flowing agricultural and forested land. It still has debris that floats downstream. But we see water fowl. We see something you would never have seen 50 years ago, which is people out kayaking and i saw people out in sculls this morning. The cuyahoga has once again become a much more complete river. It is an agricultural space. I am sorry, a recreational space. There are new parks, along the river, for people for the whole region. This is something that goes well south of the city of cleveland. The Cuyahoga RiverCuyahoga Valley National park has become a regional and a national treasure, really. Its a remarkable space for recreation, getting out of the city. Host our guest is David Stradling, the coauthor of where the river burned. He is joining us from cleveland, ohio, a professor of history at the university of cincinnati. Before we take our first call, we want to thank the Music Box Supper Club for allowing us to put our cameras in place to allow David Stradling to share with us on site, on the scene of what it was like there, and the fact that its now a supper club, that there are bars and restaurants along the flats tells you what . David it tells us that this is a part of the city that clevelanders are interested in returning to. This is not an entirely new movement in the 1990s, cleveland started to reimagine the flats, that so much of the industry had moved out. There is still an awful lot of interesting things here, mostly you see the engineering. Its a spectacular space, the engineering of the various bridges. It makes this an interesting place to be. In the 1990s, we had a bit of a kind of a kindling of this culture down here by the flats. Its come on much more intensely in the last five or 10 years, much more capital put in here and this is really one of the highlight areas of clevelands culture. From nearby lorraine, ohio, sandra, you are first up. Good morning. Caller yes, good morning. These rivers flow into the lake, lake erie. Lake erie brings in 800 billion of revenue every year. So when this pollution well, this pollution is very costly. Let me just add to that, that i live in lorraine, which has a river, black river, which also leads into the lake. A couple days ago, there was an oil spill on the lake, and i am sorry, on the river, and also, not to take away from the rivers, but there was a lake where a truck was found to be spewing out chemicals into a wildlife refuge in spencer lake. Thank you, sandra. We are going to jump in and get a response. David sandra points out obviously the problems of pollution have not been completely solved. There is still a lot of industry around lake erie, of course, and the other great lakes. Lorraine has a steel mill. Even here in cleveland the major steel mills are once again up and running. I do believe theyve made significant investments in Water Pollution control and also air pollution control, but no doubt accidents happen. There are, of course, other kinds of contributors to Water Pollution. Cleveland, like lots of cities that grew in the late 19th century and early 20th century, has combined sewers, which means that sanitary sewage combines with storm runoff and when it rains, that means that untreated sewage flows into both the cuyahoga and directly into lake erie. We also know that lake erie suffers from nonpoint pollution, which is to say agricultural runoff mostly, particularly over in toledo from the river. So as i tell my students, there are no permanent victories in environmental protection. Its an ongoing effort. You have to adjust to new threats, to new problems, and to be vigilant about regulation and enforcement. To the west of cleveland is toledo. Tim, you are on the air. Good morning. Caller hi, i just wanted to say that i was born and raised along the shores of the wami river. Which is close to lake erie. I can remember as a kid the foam, when the water would wash used to fish with my dad. It was all foamy with that fish along the river. Fish along the river. As a kid, you dont go thats not normal. It was disgusting now thinking back. Now, that was in the 1970s. Walking along the garbage, all that, and now the river we have small mouth bass that was in there. It was always carp, sometimes game fish like the walleye. But now its cleaned up a lot. Lately, now all of a sudden we seem to be getting back to where we dont care about protecting our environment. Its like we won that battle and we do the same thing all over again with the oceans and all that. Sooner or later, we got to wake up and realize you cant keep polluting where you live at. Its just logic. Its basic sense. If you say something, you are a tree hugger, all these crazy things being said. Cant we just be a logical species and say we i mean, 500 years ago, you didnt go upstream and relieve yourself or go downstream and get drinking water. Its really kind of stupid as a species with the environment. And yes, we are plaguing ourselves. Thats how i feel. Host we will get a response. David yeah, i appreciate the reference to the foaming river. He is referring to a period in time when detergents are adding lots of phosphates. This was a new load of phosphates as active fertilizer. A lot cleaneres but waterways a lot dirtier. They provided a lot of nutrients. You have audi blooms. Algae blooms. That was solved to regulation. We no longer see the visible suds from that problem. We do see some visible problems in lake erie, including these blooms that happen every summer. Mostly contributed by agricultural runoff. Broader, thee visibility of the Environmental Issues can be really important to gathering political will. I think thats one of the cuyahoga firee became so important because even though the imagery of a different fire the imagery of a , river on fire really galvanize people. It was recognition, this is one way to see Water Pollution. Its difficult to assess the ecological tests of the river because he have to know, you have to do tests. Then it becomes an issue of numbers. Trying to solve the problem much larger problem of climate change. Its difficult to identify an imagery that can create this political thing that gets people moving the way nixon was forced to move in 1970. Host with the Cuyahoga River behind him, our guest is David Stradling. Next caller, good morning. Caller good morning. From alabama, you have touched something that i have o. C. D. About, plastic. The plastic bottles, the plastic plates, the plastic jugs. I have told my sister, threatened to carry my cat litter, big plastic bucket, when it gets empty, refill it and leave in it for them. I want to remind people, this fourth of july, you know, you cant find a little thin paper plate anymore. Please, please, please, wash your plates and use your own silver wear. The lawley all. Just have a wonderful day. Thank you. Host thank you. What about the plastic bags, water bottles, and other debris . David that is certainly an ongoing problem. The great lakes are in the ocean and which they flow. Floating trust debris down the river, which has been a longterm problem. It does not break down. She is absolutely right that this is something that needs attention. Going all the way back to the first earth day in 1970, the focus their for students, for young people was to pick up trash. Much less of which would have been plastic at the time. There again it was about that thatt was about visibility you can see. That there is an ecological and environmental problem because you can see the trash. Even though it may not be the most urgent of issues in 1970, it was one that people felt like they could tackle. What they could put effort into. I think that we see a lot of cleanup efforts along river banks. We see it on the ohio, i am from cincinnati. Every year we have a major cleanup around the river banks. With avisible problem very visible impact when you pick up the trash. Host great history of the Cuyahoga River. Reportedly at least 13 separate fires. The first dates back to 1868. The largest fire we talk about in 1962, causing more the 1 million in damage. Magazinetime described it as the river that loses rather than flows. Flows. S rather than a key person in this is the mayor of ohio. Carl stokes was the first the person does not drown but decays. Carl stokes, his response to all of this at the time, mr. Straddling . David carl stokes was the first africanamerican mayor of any major city. He really understood the problems of urban america. He was raised in poverty himself here in cleveland, grew up in one of the most degraded neighborhoods in Public Housing and central, the neighborhood. So he had kind of a unique view on the problems of urban america , as far as major politicians are concerned. Ul understood that concentrated housing or adequate concerns for residents in cleveland. That he knew that cleveland itself could not recover if its Water Quality continue to diminish. Particularly if the air quality continue to diminish. Unlike many politicians of his era, when he spoke about the problems of urban america, he completely mangled the Environmental Crisis with the urban crisis. He tended to talk about both at the same time. Solutions to one problem were not going to solve the problems of urban america. You had to deal with all of these problems at once. There are all interconnected. The day after it caught fire on asunday morning so, on monday morning, he has his staff call the local press and takes them on what my brother richard and i call the pollution tour. They meet at the Railroad Trestles were the fires took place, and he discusses generally the cuyahoga, but also lake erie. Noting that the city of cleveland was really powerless to solve the problems of Water Pollution. The polluted of water comes into cleveland from the suburbs like akron. From cuyahoga heights, which is just beyond the city limits. He talks about the way in which notsuburbs themselves had treated Sewage Treatment plants. Had not tied into the city Sewage Treatment plants. Of ohio issued permits to industries inside the city of cleveland that allowed them to pollute the Cuyahoga River. There was very little that carl stokes could do himself to clean up the river. Theeeded allies, he needed suburbs to cooperate. He needed the federal government to create new regulations and provide resource to expand Sewage Treatment, and particularly. Host lets go to ohio. On. Er thanks for having me i would just like to say i am a proud clevelander. From what i understand, the Cuyahoga River was not the only river catching on fire in those days. As soon as that happen, i am glad the show is on and has shown that the cuyahoga has cleaned up. It has 18 different new species. There are first coming down to the river. We take pride in cleveland. Thertunately, we have taken brunt of jokes after the river caught on fire. I am a proud clevelander. Thats all i have to say. Thank you, david and thank you, cspan. Host as you look behind me you will see a cargo ship. Earlier we saw kayakers and small boats. It really is a crosssection of what that river is. A good pointes about the cuyahoga not being the only river that caught fire. The river rouge in detroit was river. Ibly polluted even the hudson caught fire. It was not unheard of. Whats interesting is that the cuyahoga caught fire much more frequently than any other river. It had to do with the way the river operates. Its narrow, winding, slow has a mix of that industry. The number of bridges that cause construction and gather debris. It was much more of a fire hazard than others, but all ingredients were present in other places. He also points out that cleveland this becomes woven abouthe lake reputation cleveland. Obviously cleveland gets more negative attention because of the river fire. It honestly, in a longterm, serves cleveland very well, this mythology that people begin to think of this as an important watershed moment. A birthplace for significant attention to Water Pollution in the United States. An impetus to the clean water act came on you 1972. Im lots of other waterways in the u. S. , including lake erie behind me were terribly polluted. We began to weave a story that had the cuyahoga at the center of that. There is something to be said go ahead. Host please, continue. David i think there is something to be said for the way which the city has taken pride in the improvements that have happened since over the subsequent 50 years. The transformation of the banks on the river. The opportunities that are here to reimagine the Cuyahoga River in itself. But also the entire city of cleveland with becoming a postindustrial city. Cleveland hosting the republic on National Convention and the allstar game. Many cities working to come back. More of theare documentary. Two years after the fire, so makers traveled through cleveland in 1966, came back and saw this. [video clip] [train horn] by the time the cuyahoga it isreaches cleveland, already dead. There is no living life of any kind. There are at least 28 industries. The discharge waste into the river. Treatment plant adds another 75 million gallons that go into the river alone. Knownver that is throughout the world that is the only one born. We talk a lot about cleaning up lake erie, but its not out in the lakes. You have to clean up the sources. In the area, which use river water, finally have to clean it first. There are proposals for cleaning up the river. May never be aea trap screen. It could be made not to smell. The cost for the cleanup would be expensive. First rules of civilization, you have to clean up and not dump in our waterways. Now we have to clean up the mess we have made over the past decades. [end of video clip] film, am the 1971 Crooked River dies an epilogue. What changed between 1969 to today . How did we get to this point . David well, there are several things that have affected this place in particular. Obviously the federal regulation and federal [noise] [laughter] host there you go. David [applause] [laughter] its a living river, right . Federal regulation matters an awful lot but the investment too, in Sewage Treatment and making sure that the suburban communities tie into Sewage Treatment plants. That all matters. I also think in this particular location the fact that so much of the industry has left, means that clevelanders have to worry less about water and air pollution. Of course, it means they have to matter more, worry more about jobs and what the evolving economy will become. All of thoseh industries situated along the cuyahoga and on the great lakes, what was the thinking of those executives that basically used the rivers and lakes as a dumping ground . Mostly, the idea that the lakes and rivers could handle the pollution loads, at least early on, i think there is very limited understanding of what happens to pollution once you put it in a waterway. There was hope and an expectation that pollutants would breakdown or simply be carried away. Thats the case for industry and communities that dumped into waterways, is the sense that it would be gradually diluted and become harmless. Of course, that is untenable he gets so much industry concentrated in one place. At that point, it becomes difficult for industries to figure out how to work into their Capital Investment structure the incredible amount of investment thats necessary to change the way that they perform their basic processes. Industries do make those changes early on. Republic steel, which was here, creates new settling basins so that they dump less iron filings into the Cuyahoga River. Some problems are more difficult technologically to solve. Some are so difficult to solve the industry shows basically stop functioning here and move to places where regulation is less intense. Host we know from the book the frontiers that the cuyahoga is an indian name which represents what . David the cuyahoga means Crooked River, and it gives a sense of just how meandering the cuyahoga is. Its crooked here in the city of cleveland, where there are really dramatic bends. You cant get a sense of it from the mouth behind me. In fact, this is an artificial mouth. It was punched out in the 19th century and a large boat that just came by and startled me was coming out of the old river, which took a sharp left behind me. Cue with then sound. David yes. And the other sense the cuyahoga headscket in that it south well, it comes from the south around akron, but its source is a little bit to the north and well to the east of cleveland. It heads south and heads back north. Host we welcome our radio audience. Our guest is David Stradling. Where the river burned carl stokes and the struggle to save cleveland. He is joining us from cleveland. Mary is on the phone from peninsula, ohio. Good morning. Caller good morning. I actually as a young girl learned how to swim within the Cuyahoga River a little bit, in a small town called mantaway. I grew up along the river. And after you got past akron is where much of the pollution came. I am 58 years old, so this fire occurred in 1969 and i was literally 9 years old at the time, but it was all over the news. My father was a truck driver who hauled steel out of the flats there in cleveland, and at that point in time, you would not be the air pollution was so bad that you would not be able to see david where he is standing at this moment. 30 miles away from cleveland, you could smell the air pollution and when you got close to cleveland, the air was actually yellow filled with , sulfur from the steel mills and from the other factories that were up there. The street lights were on in the middle of the afternoon because the air was so polluted and the residents in the houses that lived close to that area, their homes were just gray with pollution. I have seen the Cuyahoga River as a child and watched it literally it did not flow. An oozecreeped along as filled with foam, filled with floating dead fish, and it was amazing because the area of the cuyahoga that i grew up by was clean. We were swimming and catching fish in it, but 30 miles away, you saw floating tires, floating logs, floating everything and anything, boats upside down that were floating down the river. And the stench that came from the river and from cleveland at that point in time was so horrendous and the Health Issues of anybody that lived in that area. It is a night and day difference between what it had been permitted to become to what it is now. Host mary, thanks for that firsthand account. We will get a response from our guest. Appreciate you joining in on the conversation. Mary is calling from one of my favorite little towns in northern ohio. Peninsula is inside of the National Park on the cuyahoga valley. Yes, shes absolutely right. To talk about air pollution, which i think most clevelanders would have identified as the ors worst of the environmental problems in the 1960s and 1970s. Certainly it was a visible problem and i think it was a major impetus to the clearing out of the city. Developers in the 1950s and 1960s are building new subdivisions will away from the industrial core as more and more americans have automobiles and commute longer distances as we invest in highways so people can take those longer commutes. People choose to live farther away from polluted environments. Leaning up air pollution, but also Water Pollution, allowing people to return to beaches along lake erie here in the city has been an important part of the revival of american cities, including cleveland. But in a less polluted, urban environment, people feel much more comfortable raising their children. Much more comfortable spending their recreational time. I do think that carl stokes is right when he indicated that you cannot solve the urban crisis in the United States without also solving the Environmental Crisis. Host it is a summer of anniversaries. We talk about the stonewall uprising last week. It was on june 22, 1969. The Cuyahoga River caught on fire, we are devoting this hour of the program to that anniversary. And then next week, Neil Armstrongs historic moonwalking. We will feature that in an upcoming washington journal program. Jenny is on the phone from honolulu, hawaii. Good morning. Ander good morning to you, thank you to this program. I am calling about plastics. I am from st. Louis. My visit is for two months. There are different gasoline stations and i asked if i could get a match. Could i buy matches . No. You can get them in the grocery drugstores, but you weret get matches anymore big lighters are sold. His just funny, we used to get free matches everyplace cigarettes were sold. The giveaway matches. I just think its one of the pollutants and items that are unnecessary. And the other when i have noticed everywhere i go is containersplastic for liquid soaps when they wash their hands. When they use to pick up a bar of soap. Nothing went wrong with picking up a bar of soap to wash her hands. All this extra plastic coming into our world makes me very sad. Hawaii is very advanced. Were attacking styrofoam and straws. I also want to say that rivers are attacked in another way besides lieutenants. They are also dammed up for Recreational Purposes and for making power generation. And levees all over the place restraining rivers from flooding cities and agricultural areas. You know, i think that maybe we should take a lighter step on and stop being so aggressively abusive to mother earth. Host thank you for the call. David, are we seeing that from other communities . Onther they put a tax plastic bags or banning them completely. We are seeing it in new york and elsewhere. I think that she is pointing to the idea that you really cannot rely on consumers, necessarily, to think all the time about the ways in which their little decisions add up to big impacts on the environment. We have passed through that era where, new york state has one, many state has one, ohio does not. Have aires that you deposit on bottles and cans, including in new york state for bottled water. Laws, astle troublesome as they might be. Horn] david i think there is another big boat coming. Host its interesting, behind you there is a bridge that goes up and down depending on the movement of the ship. David did it go up . Host it is down right now. David there is a barge coming down. It may not go up to the lake. Those kinds of regulations may see intrusive to some, but they really matter. Litter in new york state plummeted after they passed the bottle law. It really is just the political kind of power that certain corporations have that prevents more states from passing those kinds of laws. Communities, individual cities pass regulations regarding plastic bags in particular. As an indication that states have failed to regulate. That they are unwilling to take the steps. I think we will see that more and more in the coming years as cities recognize that, if somebody will do something about pollutant problems like plastic pollution, and broader problems like climate change, they will have to make the steps. From dust is on the on the phone from akron, ohio. David, you are doing a great job with the horns. It would startle anyone, but thank you. Akron. I live in from cleveland to the summit county. The northern part of start counting. I am very proud of it. Its a lot cleaner than it was when i was growing up. A bit of a geography lesson about the river. It went south into kent. From there it goes west into akron. And then from there, north into cleveland. I grew up in the city on the border of akron. Right on the border of those two cities. I believe they took down that dam. Let me mention two of the rivers nearby. The river that flows into Cuyahoga River, that is where firestone in general all dump their pollutants, which led to the river. Just south of us is this river. It flows south. Akron is right on the divide. Even though we are much closer to lake erie than we are to the mississippi river. Only one fourth of the water that drops in ohio, rainwater goes in to lake erie. Resource of rainwater in ohio flows south into the ohio river and then down into the mississippi to new orleans. I went to Kent State University back in 1971. I can tell you a whole lot about may 4, 1970. As a student i used up hike along the Cuyahoga River in the city of kent. One last thing. I live across the street from the nature league. Along withdemocrat reagan, a republican. Those two were the two mainly responsible for the National Park. I love taking the train through the small town of peninsula. One of the most scenic places in ohio. There is more work to be done. We have to get the rivers clean. Im very proud to be from this part of ohio. Host thank you. I am glad he referenced the past. He is talking about the ohio and erie canal that you succumb it went down the Cuyahoga River valley, and then down here. The direction connects to ohio river. It was an important 19thcentury in the transportation infrastructure that helped this region grow and eventually become the Industrial Center that it became. Is now being recreated into the entire length of it, even here in the city of cleveland to become an important recreational route. To some people that may not seem important, but it really is part of the remaking of an industrial postindustrial city to make this a more Pleasant Place to live. A happier place to live, a healthier place to live. These things all matter in an era where capital can move very, with the kinds of industries that we rely on our not terribly plays. The way that still manufacturing was. If cleveland wants to attract more and more hightech employees, then, creating a landscape that those people can enjoy when they are not at work is an important part of the puzzle that needed to be done. Think he is describing some important changes that have taken place over the last 30 years. I will emphasize that these things dont happen by themselves. A lot of work its done to improve the environment to make certain that investments take place. Lobbying local and state governments to make the investments. Local communities that do their part to make certain that they take advantage of things like this path. It really is something that requires a lot of peoples engagement. With we are seeing that what is behind you. The barge ships and the recreational vessels. Is the coauthor of where the river burn. Caller good morning. I grew up in michigan. My grandparents had a farm in kingsville, ontario canada. We used to swim in lake erie every summer. Thatember the first year aboutnot go swimming was 1956 or 1957 because there were and it dead fish around washed up on the shore. It was horrible. Int we will go to joan florida. Good morning. Thanks for waiting. Caller thank you for taking my call. I just returned from new york. I am a resident of florida. I was very surprised to see that in the supermarkets they charged five cents per plastic bags. All plastic products, water bottles. They received five cents on each bottle. Host we are getting feedback, but we understand your point. David, do you want to address that again . David i would like to address the beach issue, going swimming in lake erie. That was one of the things that coral tackled law he was mayor. He understood that cleaning the entirety of lake erie would take a lot of effort from a lot of jurisdictions, including canada, but mostly in the United States. But there are two beaches here in the city of cleveland. One of which is to the west of us. It is very close to the Sewage Treatment plant, which is also just to the west of us. Theas much too polluted in late 1960s and 1970s for people to swim there any longer. Then there is another beach on the far east side of the city of cleveland called white city beach. Kroll stokes wanted to make certain that City Residents had access to beaches. People who lived in the suburbs who had their own cars could drive farther out of the city to go to beaches that were still clean enough to swim in. City residents without cars cannot do that. He and his director of Public Utilities devised a system by which they dropped plastic sheeting into the lake and beyond part of that plastic sheeting they dumped corine. That corine would kill the bacteria. It was harmful so it killed fish. They would clean the beach of the dead fish and then open up the beach for swimming. For some people, this seemed rather miraculous that they could safely swim in lake erie, take advantage of this resource. From our place it might seem like an unfortunate baby step. For me it indicates the land in , ath carl stokes operated the local level, solving problems for people whose problems he really understood. But also lobbying the federal government to do the work that it needed to do to clean up lake erie more generally. Having grown up along lake erie it seems as if the tourism along the lake is now thriving. Is that a Fair Assessment . David i think it has seen an uptick. Think this is true on a lot of american waterways. Along lake stake friends and river friends has increased in value. Part of that has to do with, and earlier caller talked about the stench, which is no longer there. The fact that people can think asut the lake and the river truly ecological and recreational space. That makes it much more attractive to the changed meaning of it. It makes it much more tractive. Even if you are just looking at it through a window. Awfulhink we have seen an lot more investments along waterways, lake erie included. Donald is next from cincinnati. Caller good morning steve, good morning david. 50 years agos old when the fire happened. I vaguely remember hearing about it. But, i was more concerned about the ohio river. I am from your neck of the woods, you know that. Not being able to eat fromish you caught coming the ohio river. Nobody would do that. I think what you said earlier is absolutely true, they thought if went down the river it would just wash away. We have learned. I am glad of that. They ohio is a much nicer river now. The ohio as much more complicated history because it is a larger river oh river and travels through lots of industrial regions. It has its origins. Pittsburgh, much of the Chemical Industry of West Virginia flows past the city of cincinnati. I certainly remember also the chemical spills in the city of cincinnati would have to close its water intake and wait for the chemicals to pass. Eat fish thatnot come out of the ohio river. An indication that, obviously there is work yet to be done. That these are cleaner landscapes, but not perfectly clean landscapes. We have seen some backtracking in recent years as far as environmental regulations are concerned. The Ohio River Sanitation Commission just recently decided that regulations could be enforced locally and not regionally, which i think is very problematic. I dont know of people think that this asks that the success has been so complete that we can dismantle a regulatory system. I think that sets us up for future failures. Host wayne from mississippi. Quick question or comment. Caller its probably one of your greatest. See the kayakhing going down the side. This is incredible. This is got to go down as one of your greatest segments in your episode. Beautiful. It is wonderful. You are doing a great job with david. Are a likable looking guy and youre doing a great job. Thank you, appreciate the call in a comment. We agree with that David Stradling. Lou knew that this was going to be such an active segment. Especially on a sunday morning. Obviously it is a Beautiful Day for boaters here in cleveland. We were not anticipating this much commercial activity. The fire took place june 22, 1969. One year later, earth day occurred. How did the cleveland area react to that . I thoughtbrother and that we were going to write a history of the relationship between the city of cleveland and the Cuyahoga River. So, basically a longer biography of the river. One of the first things that i did was look in a carl stokes paper at the western reserve historical society. A remarkable collection from his four years of mayor from 1967 to 1971. Is aat collection wonderful folder, a couple of folders filled with letters from children from earth a. In april of 1970, the first ,arth day in the United States a wild success. Both locally and nationally. It really gave an indication of the level of concern about the environment, and willingness to take steps to do something to clean up the environment. Cleveland, hundreds of of aren wrote, as part school project, or on their own, wrote a letter to carl stokes about their concerns about the environment. Many were about air pollution. The number one concern of these children was air quality. They were concerned about Water Quality. The vast majority of those students discussed lake erie. Particularly for suburban kids, the inability to fish in lake erie any longer, the commercial fisheries had collapsed and they were no longer suggesting that fish thatld eat the they did catch in lake erie. It was really popular manic, and people problematic and people are having trouble finding places to swim in lake erie. What surprised richard and myself is a very few students wrote about the Cuyahoga River at all. Only one of those letters referenced the fact the Cuyahoga River caught fire. They didnt need to let them industrialhe landscapes were terribly polluted. They had other indications, particularly the air quality. He is the coauthor of where the strugglens and to save cleveland. Joining us on the Cuyahoga River 50 years after the fire of june 1969. Thanks, it was a pleasure. American history tv is on social media. Follow us on cspan history. Detroits auto it does Auto Industry began in the 1890s. It attracted workers from all over the world. Next on american artifacts, senior curator goldstone takes on a tour of the america puff motor city exhibit at the Detroit Historical museum. We are at the Detroit Historical museum about to walk into a wonderful exhibit called americas motor city